Conference 7.286::digital

    
    
    Can someone list the locations (other than Stow) involved with the
    "Take Your Daughter to Work" event?
    
    Thanks.

    Alpharetta is not near by, but we are having a "Take Your Child to
    Work" day.  I am bringing my son.
    
    Bing

    Hudson is participating in "Take Our Daughters to Work".  I'm glad
    there's a day specifically set aside for the girls.  After four years
    undergraduate at a technical school, graduate school, job interviews,
    and several conferences, I feel I can say with certainty that males are
    not underrepresented in the field of semiconductor design/processing.
    
    Lisa

From:	LANDO::RYDER "SHERRY RYDER, PKO SITE HUMAN RESOURCES, PKO3-1/C20, 223-6522  14-Apr-1995 1604" 14-APR-1995 16:07:17.83
To:	@SERVERMGRSUPV.DIS,@SERVERADMIN.DIS
CC:	RYDER
Subj:	DAUGHTERS TO WORK DAY - COULD YOU PLEASE MAKE SURE THIS NOTICE GOES OUT TO YOUR GROUPS?  THANKS


                    AN INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE IN
  
  	               TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS TO WORK
  
  	                      PARKER ST.
  	                 THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 1995		     
  
                          This year's theme:
               "A GIRL IS WATCHING.  WHAT IS SHE LEARNING?" 
  	      							     
  
  TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS TO WORK day is a nationwide celebration which
  was launched in 1992. Last year there were more than 25 million
  participants nationally. Digital Equipment Corporation has 
  participated in this day's activities in years past and will be doing
  so again this year.

  Although our schedule is not yet complete, the PKO "TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS 
  TO WORK" Team has developed a day of activities to ensure that the event 
  inspires and educates young girls. We welcome and invite you to participate 
  on Thursday, April 27th.  
  
  The activities are organized to:
  
  *Introduce girls to the world of work
  *Expose them to role models with whom they can identify
  *Challenge them to address issues of self-esteem 
  
  Below is a list of some of the planned activities.  While the program 
  is geared to the 9-15 year age group, we do not want to exclude 
  younger girls from the program.   If you feel that your daughter 
  would benefit and learn from the sessions, please use your judgment
  in including her in the activities. 
  
                                 *****
                                 AGENDA
    
  *  9:O0 	 Welcome to Digital - Breakfast and address by Pauline Nist  

   
  *  TBD         Workshop Delivered by Work/Family Directions
     		 Digital's Child Care & Family Resource vendor
                 The workshop is an interactive, participatory
                 one that:
                      -introduces girls to world of work
                      -talk about career options
                      -addresses issues of self-esteem


  *  10:00 & 	 Product demos in the PKO3 Demo Center
      2:00

  *  9:30-11:30  Internet Demo and Workshop - Learn to Drive on the
     1:00-3:00 	 Information Highway

  *  TBD	 Interview opportunities with women in a varitey of
   	         professions

  *  AM & PM     US Payroll Presentation, including a video "Your Paycheck 
     1 HR TBD	 and You" and a presentation by US Payroll Manager
    
  *  1:00	 WGBH film profiling women in science
       
  *  3:00        Cake in the cafeteria  

  *  TBD         Various lab tours and activites arranged by individual 
  		 groups.

  If you have an activity you would like to add, it's not too late!

  IN ORDER TO FINALIZE ARRANGEMENTS AND LOGISTICS FOR THE DAY,  WE NEED 
  YOU TO RESPOND ASAP TO CONFIRM YOUR ATTENDANCE.     
  
  PLEASE RESPOND TO GALE ULRICH AT WRKSYS::ULRICH BY APRIL 19TH WITH  
  YOUR DAUGHTER OR GUEST'S NAME & AGE
    
  

    I value lots of differences.  I don't see this as a valuing differences
    issue.  I think it's a chance to take girls aside and give them one day
    of extra attention and expose them to a life option that perhaps they
    weren't aware that open to them.  Granted, I think the most impact
    occurs in fields such as mine that are male dominated, to show young
    girls that "yes, women do this too".  I like the "all girls" format,
    because if you have a group of 8 boys and 2 girls, and the tour guides
    are male, and the boys all crowd to the front for the demonstrations,
    it's harder to get across the message that "women do this".
    
    I have no problem with a separate day for boys.  It would be especially
    nifty if Moms brought their sons to work, so that boys could see what
    "Mom" does.  Or go to work with a father that works in a traditionally
    female-dominated field like nursing or secretarial work to show that
    "boys do this too". Or even  to stay home with a
    stay-at-home parent and get exposed to things like cleaning the
    bathroom.
    
    Lisa
    
    
    
    

    Some companies are already starting to see the "boys push girls out
    of the way, boys dominate the conversations" situation now that the
    day is being made "gender-neutral."  That's what the girls-only aspect
    was intended to avoid.  Separate days really seems the way to go to
    me.
    

    re .6
    
    I think both girls and boys need a positive self image.  I think a day
    like this is great to say to your child- "I realy care about YOU!  You
    are a special person and you are capable of making a real contribution."  I
    would think a child is going to remember a special day with their
    parent a long time after the computer demonstrations have faded from
    view.  I have a co-worker who is bring her son to work.  Like you said,
    he can see what his mom does.  I would love to be able to bring a
    daughter to work, but I have 3 boys, another on the way, and 0
    daughters.  If there was a separate day for boys that would be fine.  I
    think the most important thing is that children know that they are
    loved.
    
    Bing  

    The Elk Grove office (ACI) is sponsoring a take your child to work day.
    I'm glad we're doing it that way.  Women do not have the same
    advantages as men.  It's difficult to change the way things have been
    for so long.  However, I was told a long time ago that two wrongs don't
    make a right and I believe it.  Children don't know why there is
    discrimination, they just feel it.  That's too bad.  To do something
    for our daughters is great, but that should not mean our sons are left
    out.  That's no better than it was, it's just reversed.
    Suzanne
    

    
    I was under the impression that the computer demonstration was supposed
    to be the point of the day.
    
    Lisa

    Gosh Lisa, I was looking forward to the "Cake in the cafeteria"  :-)
    
    Mark

    Dang. 
    
    Barring any scheduling problems, I'm supposed to do a demo of some
    assistive technology products (that my group and our partners build)
    for my daughters 2nd grade class..
    
    ...tom

    
    RE .6
    
>    I have no problem with a separate day for boys.  
    
     Yea...separate, but equal.....I think I've heard of that premise
     before....I think it also involved the way we treated the youth
     of the nation. 
    
    					Ed
    
    

Time is short, and I guess the bottom line is that no local facilities
are including the boys, too.

I think that's unfortunate and insensitive, and I'll work to change it
in the future. I wish I had known that we were headed in this
direction so that I could have said something in time for this year.
I'm all for equality, and this practice doesn't do anything to support
fair and reasonable goals.

Pete

Multivendor Systems Engineering in TAY2 (Littleton, MA) is holding a 
"Take your child to work day".

We did it this way last year too. Everyone in our group decided that 
we did not want to exclude boys from the event.

Joe

    I have a son and I intend to include him in this day.  Since both
    my husband and I work for DEC I think it is important for him to
    see what goes on when we're away from him for so many hours.  I 
    work in a field where there are not many women and I see no reason
    to have a separate boys and girls day.  If you want this day to
    be realistic then the children should see something that reflects
    reality - that being a MIX of genders, regardless of how unbalanced
    it might be depending on your job.  
    
    The idea that somehow boys won't deal with the same issues as girls 
    (discrimination of all kinds,self-esteem issues etc.) is ludicrous.
    
    -Elizabeth

I think I'll let my kids participate. They can stay at home with me!

:-)

> I think I'll let my kids participate. They can stay at home with me!

There was a big fuss last year when a teacher disallowed a girl from staying
home with her stay-at-home mother.  The teached relented under the glare of
publicity.

    
    I would prefer a world where one day would suffice. I have seen and
    read enough that I believe two separate days is fine and IMO probably
    better.
    
    What gets me is that if the NOM (national organization for men ... I
    think NOW started BYDTWD) started a "Bring Your Son to Work Day" first
    I am 99.9% sure Digital would not have allowed that to exist
    independent of some access for girls also.  However allowing access to
    girls without an equal access for boys violeates everything that
    defines equality in my mind.
    
    Greg
    
                    

    Re: .21
    
    The BODTW day is sponsored by the "Ms. Foundation [for something or
    other]", not NOW.
    
    Re: "boys and girls are different"
    
    Yes, but what makes them different?  In the area under discussion, I
    maintain that differences are taught, not inate.  There have been many
    studies showing that, often unconciously, people treat boys and girls
    differently, even from birth, even when they swear up and down that
    they're being "gender neutral".
    
    					Steve

    
     I am starting a "Bring yourself to work day." BYTW for short.
    I feel if more of us could do this the better off our company can
    be.
    
    Have a nice day.
    
    -Mike Z.

    
    
    RE: .23, Steve,
    
    
    I really don't know about the traits being taught.  You see, I had two
    daughters before my son came along.  My kids are allowed to play
    whatever they want (that meanin the nongender specific as is usually
    thought).  The boy went for the balls and the toy gun while the girls
    went to the Barbies.  They do, on occaision, play the different things,
    but the majority of the time, this is what I see.  Nope, not
    scientific, but I know what I have seen with my children.
    
    
    I think the seperate days for boys and girls is fine.  I am fairly
    conservative, but I never understood the big deal raised about having 
    a TYDTWD, I applaud the idea.
    
    
    Mike

    
    re: -1
    
    Mike, 
    
    Already many people bring themselves to work. Perhaps a better
    plan would be a "Do Something Worthwhile at Work", DSWAW. 
    [ Pronounced 'diswaw' ]
    
    Beta site?   Sure, OGO because it's the only site that I know
    of that has a 'Drop Off Zone' :-).   
    
    jc 
    

    We're planning a "Bring Your Child To Work Day" here in LJO (Littleton).
    Due to the overwhelming response, we can't accomodate folks outside the 
    LJO facility.  Here's our agenda:


  8:30 -  9:00	Check-in/Obtain Badge w/ Parent/Sponsor
    		(Juice & Munchkins available in VMS Conf Room)

  9:00 -  9:30	Orientation/Kick-off w/Sharon Henderson
    			               	ATG Public Relations Mgr.

  9:30 -  9:50	Video Conference with Digital in Germany (divided into 
                groups based on age)
    		
		9:30-9:35	Group A
    		9:35-9:40	Group B
    		9:40-9:50	Group C

 10:00 - 11:00	Tour of LJO2 Businesses
    		(we will break up into 6 groups,
    		 we ask that a couple of adults join 
    		 each group).

 11:00 -  1:00	Time with Parent/Sponsor
    		(Children will be waiting in VMS
    		 Conference Room for you.)

  1:00 -  2:00	Surfing the Web & Poster Making Activity
    		(Running simultaneously)
    		FYI - Web Demo will be geared to 
    		      two age groups.

  2:00 -  2:30	Wrap-Up w/Ellen Karp, ATG HR Manager
 

LOGISTICS:

o Please check in with Security to sign in your child.

o The cafeteria has been instructed to think of children when 
  planning their menu that day.

o It is not mandatory that each child attend the entire agenda, 
  please use your discretion, you know your kids better than we do.

o There will be minimum adult supervision, so we ask that the 
  parents/sponsors be accessible or in attendance at all times 
  taking into consideration your child's age.

    

NPR had a story on TYDTWD a couple of days ago where they 
interviewed various companies and sites which had implemented a range 
of options (daughters only, mixed, separate, not-at-all, etc.)

The outcome was that no matter what was done, SOMEBODY was upset.
There IS NO WAY to please everyone with this one.

On the topic of boys being different from girls, I'd say that in my
experience it is true, and in this specific case, the nature-vs-nurture
argument DOES NOT MATTER.  Whatever the reason, they in fact are different.

Experience is that if the crowd is mixed, the girls tend to lose out, as
they TEND to be less assertive at this age.  Doesn't matter how they
got that way, they still lose out.

If we eliminate boys, then the boys definately lose out.

It seems then,  that the only way for all kids to benefit is to have separate
events.  Maybe on the same day, maybe not.  If it's just taking your kid
along with you, it obviously doesn't matter, but in group settings, it does.

Kevin

    
    The MS foundation started the Bring Your Daughter to Work day to target
    girls ages 9 - 15. The purpose was to provide exposure to girls in this
    age group to adult role models free from the competitive pressures of
    boys. So I would guess having a gender-netural Bring Your Child to Work 
    Day sort of defeats the orginal purpose. 
    
    There is a good book writen in the late 80's that prompted some of the 
    research in the 90's into why girls tend to slip academically compared to
    boys in the 9-15 age group, among many other things. I believe it is called 
    "Fathering Successful Daughters". Don't let the title fool you, it is a 
    good read for both fathers and mothers. I don't have the book at work but 
    I can type in the complete title, author and ISBN number if anyone is 
    interested.  
    
    

In case anyone was wondering Stow TODTWD is tomorrow the 27th and has a full program planned
starting at 8:30AM.

    Hey, don't feel too bad, folks! My site, IVO in Irvine, CA, is not
    doing *anything*, and neither are any of the other local facilities, to
    the best of my knowledge.  There has been no acknowledgement whatsoever
    that this day for daughters, sons, children, whatever...even exists.
    
    Hmmmph.
    
    M.
    

    I didn't know it was necessary to get an invite to bring your child
    into the office and share with them what it is you do for a living. 
    You may be waiting for a long time ...
    
    I guess I have learned a valuable lesson here.  Life is not fair - and
    if I want to change things I need to be responsible for impacting
    that change.  A good lesson to learn.
    
    Re: separate but equal
    
    What do our daughters learn by being isolated from a behavior that is
    recognized to exist in boys?  
    
    

    Heres what I sent them last year - I nver got a reply..
    
To:	STOWOA::SCHIAPPA
CC:	METZGER
Subj:	comments on TODTWD 

    
I believe that the reason that we have events such as "Take Our daughters 
to work day " et el, is to promote a sense of worthiness and equality in 
our daughters. We, as women, are working hard on many fronts to empower our 
daughters *and* sons to see themselves as people who are just as able, just 
as smart, and just as equal as all other people. 

Yet, we continue to covertly foster a sense of inequality, unspoken unfairness,
even superiority when we set age and gender limits on who can accompany their 
parent to work. 

As a parent my job is to teach my son and daughter that they both have a right
to equal opportunity. I have seen the discrimination work both ways, with 
my daughter encountering the barriers women face with respect to harassment,
and my son actually having less opportunity than his sister because he 
contributes no minority points in anything he pursues (scholarships, colleges,
summer employment). 

As an adult in this society it is my job to ensure that I walk the walk.
I did not participate in this event initially because my daughter was too 
"old" by the guidelines to attend. However, the more I reflected on it, the
more I saw this event as promoting the very attitude that keeps girls and boys, 
men and women as seeing themselves as true peers.

Until this event comes up with Take our Sons to Work day, or changes its
focus to Take our Children to Work day (now *theres* empowerment), and removes
the age barrier, I will see it as promoting the sense of separateness that
feeds discrimination.

regards,
Karen Wright Metzger


===========
From:	REFINE::ORION::STERLING "JOANNE, ZKO1-3/J35, 381-1387  18-May-1994 0943" 18-MAY-1994 10:09:58.99
To:	@STONE.DIS,TOLKIN::COLEMAN
CC:	
Subj:	Feedback requested on "Take Our Daughters to Work Day". Please forward to Lois Schiappa @mso. Thanks

From:	NAME: Sharon Quebec @MSO            
	FUNC: Corporate Employee Relations    
	TEL: 223-9574                         <QUEBEC.SHARON AT A1 at ICS at PKO>
To:	See Below
CC:	See Below


    
                    **************************************
                    * THIS MESSAGE IS FROM LOIS SCHIAPPA *
                    **************************************
    
    
    
    Many of you received a memo from me dated March 10th.  It contained 
    guidelines, suggestions, and a request for feedback all related to 
    Take Our Daughters To Work Day. 
    
    Since I am the coordinator and "generator" of guidelines for this 
    event, I am very interested to know how the event went for those sites 
    where activities were planned.
    
    In an effort to give Dick Farrahar and the HRMT some statistical 
    feedback and in an effort to promote this earlier next year and 
    generate much more participation, I am resending the questions from my 
    earlier memo.  Please respond ASAP as well as to send me names of 
    people you think I have overlooked.
    
    I have added one question here not included in my first memo re:  Boys' 
    attendance.
    
    If we are to expect "the Company" to fully endorse this and participate 
    at a high level, it is imperative that we supply the facts on the 
    positive and successful efforts that occurred this year.
    
    Thank you all for your pro-active work and amazing energy.  I have 
    heard from a few of you and by all accounts your events were very well
    received by colleagues and the children.
    
    Thanks for your excellent work and collaboration on this event.
    
    Regards,
    
    Lois
    

                  FEEDBACK ON TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS TO WORK DAY
    
    
    
    
    *  How was the day marketed/promoted in your group or site?
    
    
    *  Was the event planned by Human Resources or was there partnering 
       with line organizations?
    
    
    *  What were the planned activities?
    
       	 -  Was there advance registration required or was the day open to 
       	    whomever showed up?
    
    
    *  Number of parents or adults who attended.
    
    
    *  Number of girls and ages who attended.
    
    
    *  Was there follow-up evaluation as to the success and added value to 
       girls understanding of work-world?
    
    
    *  Did the day meet the parents expectations?
    
    
    *  How was this day viewed generally at your site or group?
    
    
    *  Any additional comments?
    
    
    *  Do you recommend having boys attend next year?
    
       	 -  Should they have a separate agenda from the girls?
    
    
    *  Are you interested in helping to plan an event again next year?
       (I will be putting together a task force around January to help
       promote this throughout Digital) 
    
    
    

To Distribution List:

ANNETTE ALBRIGHT @LKG,
MARTHA AUSTIN @DCO,
CYNDI BLOOM @MLO,
JULIE BOVA @MLO,
E LISA BROWN @MRO,
BOB CLARK @MLO,
MARK COHEN @HLO,
MARTHA COMFORT @MRO,
DAVE CRIMMIN @LKG,
BOB CROOK @MSO,
ELLEN GLANZ @MLO,
PAT HOLDER @CWO,
DEB HUTCHINSON @AKO,
PAT KIRKLAND @CYO,
VHONDA LOWRY @DWO,
INEZ LYLES @CWO,
MCQUADE @ROYALT @VMSMAIL,
MARIA MENENDEZ @HLO,
DENNY PAVLOCK @MRO,
SUZANNE RELYEA @BXC,
BURT REYNOLDS @MKO,
JIM ROGERS @COP,
MARITZIE RUDDEN @BXB,
GEOFF SACKMAN @MLO,
MERCEDES SANCHES @LMO,
CHRIS STRUTT @LKG,
KENDRA THERIAULT @PKO,
TKANE @OBSESS @VMSMAIL,
CLAUDETTE WARD @DLO,
SANDY WILSON @BXC,
KEN ZIMMERMAN @OFO,
JANET CARDILLO @OGO,
EDWINA MULLIGAN @OHF,
JOANNE STERLING @ZKO,
HEIDI HOLIHAN @DAS,
GINGER ABRAMS @MLO,
DEBORAH LEVERAGE @WRO,
DARLENE HUDSON @TRO,
ROSANNE MASTERSON @TRO,
ROCHELLE KING @COP

CC Distribution List:

LOIS SCHIAPPA @MSO

    
    

    If I might clarify my .30 reply a bit.
    
    The MS Foundation for Women launched the Bring Your Daughter to Work
    Day in 1993 to build self-esteem of girls, ages 9 to 14. The orignal 
    purpose was to address some special issues with girls that surfaced
    in studies that showed girls self-confidence erodes when they enter
    middle school. It was devised as a way to let girls know that what's
    inside is what's important. The MS Foundation feels that if a girl
    could go into work settings with their parents, separate and apart from
    boys and boy-girl competitive pressures, they would feel "equally
    valued, and not second-guess their judgment"  
    
    I have read that some experts say girls in this age group start to
    participate less in class discussions, drop out of math and science 
    courses, and begin to rule out male-dominated careers and become more 
    focused on appearance.
     
    The author of How to Father a Successful Daughter refered to this as the 
    dumming of Americas daughters at a recent Girl Scouting Father/Daughter 
    breakfest. The following is the book I recommend in reply .30:
    
    	Title:     How To Father Successful Daughters
    	Author:    Nicky Marone
    	ISBN:      0-449-21687-X
        Publisher: Fawcett
    	Copyright: 1988
    
    It seems to me this got started with a simple purpose and simple goals
    and has mushroom'd into much more than was ever intended all in the
    name of being gender-neutral, inclusive not exclusive, or add your 
    favorite polically correct stamp here.
    
    Regards,
    Phil Smith 
                                                       7

For those who believe that girls should not have their own day
for this:  what do you propose to help solve the problem of
girls not getting as much attention as boys in public, gender-mixed forums?

This has been a problem in schools, and, as mentioned above, in the
"new improved take your Child to work day" -- all of a sudden, the
girl is once again pushed to the back, out-shouted, and then invisible.

How would you solve this problem?

	MKV

    Try treating the girls the way you treat the boys...
    
    Jim Morton

>   <<< Note 3821.33 by POBOX::CORSON "Higher, and a bit more to the right" >>>
>             -< And I thought California invented this stuff... >-

	Guess it was only NORTHERN California.  Santa Clara has a full day
planned for Take Your Children To Work Day, including raffles of donated 
Digital "stuff" (mouse pads, floppies, tote bags, etc.).  Local management
has really jumped on this one.

	Unfortunately, the place where we really need to make changes ISN'T a 
California priority.  I'll never forget the day my daughter came home and
told us that her biology teacher said that "girls can't do science!"  This 
was only six years ago.  Interestingly enough, back in the dark ages when
I was a teenager in Ohio, girls were expected to excel in math and science.
Have things changed in the wrong direction?

				SQ

    Wow!  Reading some of the replies in here re: boys and girls being
    wired different etc. I am amazed that I ever got into the career
    that I did (Networking).  I guess I never realized that I had
    *everything* against me!  My parents just raised me with
    the attitude that I can do anything I set my mind and heart to.
    (Now there's a novel idea!)  :)  :)
    
    Elizabeth

    
>    The MS Foundation for Women launched the Bring Your Daughter to Work
>    Day in 1993 to build self-esteem of girls, ages 9 to 14. The orignal 
>    purpose was to address some special issues with girls that surfaced
>    in studies that showed girls self-confidence erodes when they enter


Were these the studies that were recently shown to be deliberately misleading
(eg, answers that did not support the desired conclusion were deliberately
withheld from the published results)?

    
   My daughter(age 9) asked me last night if she could come to work today
    as it is "Take Your Daughter to Work day". I said that digital has 
    a big celebration(at least last year in the Mill-MLO they did) and that
    I will find out when they celebrate it. 
    
    I found out this morning that PKO and a couple of other sites are
    celebrating this day...but not MLO.
    
    This really ticks me off...
    
    FLAME ON>
    
    Either the company as a whole does this gig or no one does has it.
    
    Keep sending me those messages about another V.P. geeting hired...
    
    
    One MAD dad.

    re: 37
    
    I guess where you would make changes is in SCHOOL!  That might be a
    good start.  My wife is an educator and they greatly appreciate
    parental involvement.
    
    The other thing, restating from others here, is teach your children
    (boys and girls) that they are going to face many barriers in their
    lives and not to accept the status quo.  Life is not fair ... but you
    don't have to accept your fate, you can change it.  
        
    Chuck

    Not to appear light-hearted, but take a look around your workplace any
    school holiday or school vacation that the kids have off and we don't.
    You'll see lots of children around the office. This is a wonderful
    informal way for children to see their Mom or Dad at work. Last Friday,
    our school vacation, my son came in for a few hours to see where Mom
    works. It was his turn, my daughter had been in many times in the past
    to visit and last year came to the formal day of working with Mom.
    
    You can also see real little ones at the office when something happens
    to day-care arrangements.  I am glad that parents can feel free to
    bring their children with them when these situations happen.
    
    To get back to the basic premise of promoting self-esteem in children.
    It can never hurt. 
    
     Just my two cents...
    

    -.1
    
    I agree. Why does there have to be a"special day" to take either your
    sons or daughters to work. I have taken my three daughters to my office
    several times. It did not take a commemerative day to show them what
    Dad does when he's away at work
    

Just thought I'd mention, I saw a program on the telly (BBC) a while ago
which suggested that there's been a complete turnaround in the last few
years, and now girls are academically more successful than boys at
school, and it also suggested that young women now have a better chance
of gaining a professional career than young men.  Anybody else see it
(who has a better memory than me!)  Comments?

Chris.

    This appears to be a very clear example of the old adage that:
    
    	"Two wrongs don't make a right!"
    
    Let's accept that and move on.

    FWIW, some time ago my kids expressed interested in what I do at work.  
    I told them I solve math problems all day.  They wanted to know more.  
    I got computer games that involve lots of puzzle solving.  I play these 
    with the kids.  They get to see how I think.  They get to try it 
    themselves.  (They get to beat me at it sometimes.)  They often ask 
    questions about how what I do is similar or different to what we do at 
    home.  Now, I field a question from them about once a week about what 
    I do for a living, computers, how to type fast like Daddy and so forth.
    Seems to work for us.  
    
    I could bring them in, but they'd get bored pretty quickly.  They'd see
    me typing furiously at the keyboard here, just like they do at home.
    
    Steve
               

    In HLO it has to be a special day, since kids under the age of 16 are
    not allowed in the building, due to safety concerns.
    
    Elaine

.44>  You can also see real little ones at the office when something happens
.44>  to day-care arrangements.  I am glad that parents can feel free to
.44>  bring their children with them when these situations happen.
    
    I can sympathize with this sentiment, but let me assure you it is
    *annoying* to me when this happens. Children -- regardless of gender --
    are noisy. They should not be allowed in an engineering environment 
    where one child can disrupt half a dozen nearby cubicles. It would
    save the company money if a parent would stay home with a child instead
    of bringing him or her in and distracting the office neighbors.
    
    Now if there were a separate room available for parents to bring their
    children, that would be fine.
    
      John

    RE; 51. John. Lighten up and have some kids will you. Rgds. RKL

    umm.. how bout "Bring Your Brain To Work Day"? BYBTWD?
    

    I find .52 to be one of the most insensitive comments ever made in a
    notes forum.
    
    Mark.

    
>    The MS foundation started the Bring Your Daughter to Work day to target
>    girls ages 9 - 15. The purpose was to provide exposure to girls in this
>    age group to adult role models free from the competitive pressures of
>    boys. So I would guess having a gender-netural Bring Your Child to Work 
>    Day sort of defeats the orginal purpose. 
    
    I think it was a terrific idea the MS. Foundation had.  My issue is not
    with that organization however.  The Ms. Foundation is biased (and it
    should be) on who it is trying to help.  
    
    My issue is with the companies that hold TYDTWD.  IMO they should not
    hold a bias and should only implement solutions that provide the same
    opportinities to both sexes whether that be one mixed sex day or two
    separate days (my vote).
    
    Greg
    
    PS - On nature versus nuture.  I believe it is a mix of both.  At one
    time I might have believed it was more nuturing .. not any more. 
    Having two kids (one of each) and knowing 4 years of daycare of kids
    (35 per year) the sex differences show up awlful early and
    consistantly.  This is a center overwhelmed by pinky-commy
    politically-correct folks half of whom don't even let their kids watch
    TV other than Seasame Street.  The differences in aggression and
    communication start show up amazingly early and consistantly given so
    many folks trying to be even-handed.
    
                  

>     <<< Note 3821.54 by PCBUOA::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Asia/Pacific Marketing" >>>
>
>    I find .52 to be one of the most insensitive comments ever made in a
>    notes forum.
>    
>    Mark.


See .53  ;-)

>    with that organization however.  The Ms. Foundation is biased (and it
>    should be) on who it is trying to help.  
    
why should it be?
                 
Chris.

    
>>    with that organization however.  The Ms. Foundation is biased (and it
>>    should be) on who it is trying to help.  
>    
>why should it be?
    
    It's an advocasy group ... it focusses on women's issues ... it may not
    be it's concern if Digital worries about the boys or not.
    
    I don't expect the AARP to be lobbying for issues not speciic to the
    older set.  That said I don't expect them to try to screw  other
    groups either.
    
    Greg
    
    BTW - I think in almost all cases it is to the Ms. Foundation advantage
    to worry about the boys also.  In this case having a separate day for
    boys would show boys growing up in traditional households that lots of
    women work in the workforce also which can only help working women.
                                                                   

    My husband & I read an excellent book entitled "Failing at Fairness,
    How our schools are failing..." by Sadker & Sadker (sp?) The book
    starts with the discrimination against girls attending schools
    from a historical view and on into current times - I believe into
    1993. It states that girls start out much more advanced in the math
    and sciences than their male counterparts, but then around 6th grade
    girls start to back away. The book gives examples on how teachers
    inadvertently favor the boys and why girls start to shy away. While
    of course this study doesn't hold true for all, it is still excellent
    reading. I highly recommend it. We loaned the book to a College
    Professor who teaches early education and is now using the book as
    part of her curriculum.
    
    I feel that it is important for our daughters to have role-models
    to encourage them and the Bring Your Daughter To Work Day is an
    excellent forum. I also feel that we need to tip our hats to
    those parents that have the most important job there is; staying
    home to raise happy & healthy children.
    

    I think the person who mentioned children being potential problems
    in workplace has a valid point.  Here in the CSC there were a lot
    of activities scheduled that kept the kids occupied for a good
    portion of the day.
    
    By afternoon the kids were in the parent's workspace.  Kids are 
    kids; can't blame them for getting bored.  Fact is 1/2 hour ago I
    couldn't hear a customer because of running, giggling, noise level
    escalating etc.  Even when activities are sponsored, I think the
    parents ought to give some thought to the children's ages and how
    fast they've seen their children's boredom meters kick in.
    
    

    
>    1993. It states that girls start out much more advanced in the math
>    and sciences than their male counterparts, but then around 6th grade
>    girls start to back away. The book gives examples on how teachers
>    inadvertently favor the boys and why girls start to shy away. While
    
    I have heard two criticisms here ...
    
    1) It is true this is when girls start lagging boys in math and
    science (in general).  It also true that is the time boys start lagging
    girls in reading and english (in general).  Either we have two
    systematic problems or their might be some natual differences ... or
    maybe a mix of both
    
    2) "favor boys over girls" ... I have seen analysis that claims "favors
    the agressive over the non-aggressive" is a much more accurate
    description of the dynamic.  Aggressive girls have few problems while
    timid boys also have problems.  The first observation was made as many
    moreof the aggressive folks are male. These two descriptions could 
    indicate very different remedies.  I hope we cure the real issue.
    
    Greg
    

>>                               <<< Note 3821.54 by PCBUOA::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Asia/Pacific Marketing" >>>
>>
>>    I find .52 to be one of the most insensitive comments ever made in a
>>    notes forum.
>>    
>>    Mark.

    Geez.  The guy enters one note, and I lose the crown.  I'm
    going to have to try harder.

    Where did I leave the Jeff Foxworthy jokebook...

    re .54;
    If you think that's world-class insensitivity, you haven't been reading
    the right notes files :^)
    
    With regards to the male/female-agressive/timid-science/humanities
    dichotomies, this is all fairly consistent:
    1.	As noted girls tend to be less agressive than boys.
    2.	Math and science, where there's always a "right" answer to be
    shouted out, do tend to provide the agressive student with an edge.
    Agressive argumentation in a literature course would, I believe be more
    easily recognised and controlled by the teacher.
    
    \dave

    
    As a young teenager I was one of 7 girls enrolled in a summer NSF
    Space Science Course.  There were 593 boys.  At the closing
    convocation I stood up to ask about career opportunities for women
    in that field, and the resulting jeers and laughter practically blew
    me out of that room.  To the moderator's credit (he was a well-known
    astronomer) he chided the boys and answered my question as honestly as
    he could.  But that laughter hurt. I haven't forgotten it.  
    
    Several years later, as a college freshman in an orientation discussion
    group, I was told by the boys there that it was a total waste of time
    to educate women in the sciences.  That was all some time ago, and
    we all assume that public opinion has changed.  Well, it has, but not
    enough.  Girls still face opposition, discouragement and difficulty
    when they approach math and the sciences.  It's not politically
    correct, of course, so it's unspoken, but the attitude is still there.
    
    We need to take, extra, positive, proactive steps to encourage girls to
    at least even consider t hese fields.  They need a safe space, secure
    from ridicule and judgmentalism, where they can explore their
    interests.
    
    In the same way, we need to encourage boys to consider fields like 
    nursing (which more and more men are entering) and day care.  As with
    the girls, it needs to be done in such a way that those considering
    a non-traditional career for their gender can examine it seriously and
    without prejudice.  
    
    Ensuring that girls are given encouragement and credibility in math &
    science efforts is the

    Our 15 year old daughter likes maths and the sciences and tolerates the
    arts and humanities subjects.  She wants to be an actuary as there
    aren't many of them in the UK, they get good salaries, and she likes
    the challenge of assessing risks, especially long term ones.
    
    She manages her two older brothers and me with processes founded
    largely on guile, which she has adopted through trial and error and/or
    intuition.
    
    Are you, in .64, suggesting that she is unusual in her interests and
    capabilities?

on Letterman last night:

	NY Mets' Daughters	8
	NY Mets			0

    From the Late Show Top Ten 27-APR-1995:
    
    Top Ten "Things Overheard On Take Our Daughters To Work Day"
    
    10. "Over-ruled, Mr. Shapiro -- Ms. Clark's daughter may conduct the
        cross-examination"
    9. "...and over there is the mud we wrestle in"
    8. "Who would have guessed that Richard Simmons had a daughter?"
    7. Insert your own Woody Allen joke here
    6. "Let me get this straight...now Chelsea's in charge?"
    5. "Hurry up, sweetie, just cock the hammer and fire at the bad guy"
    4. "Okay, the final score is Mets Daughters 8, Mets 0"
    3. "Judge Ito, your daughter has such a lovely beard"
    2. "I can't believe Letterman made all his kids put on that horrible
    clown makeup"
    1. "I don't wanna go to CBS! I wanna go home!"
    
    

re: .65
I'm not .64, but I'll reply anyway :-)

In 1976, I was one of 2 females in my high school calculus class 
and one of 5(?) in physics.  Class sizes were around 30.  I certainly
felt that I was unusual in my abilities and interests.  (And
I play trumpet quite well too!)  

Feeling that you have "unusual abilities and interests" can be
positive.  For the most part, I felt very good about my intelligence
and the fact that I played trumpet better than anyone in my high 
school.  But I also felt "different" in a not-so-positive way.

I would be happy to hear that your daughter's experience is different.

- Deb B.

    
    	.68
    
    	Deb, don't worry about it. Times have changed significantly. My
    daughter is in her second year of engineering in college. She loves
    it, and has 42 women in her class of 102 total students. It ain't
    just for guys anymore...
    
    		the Greyhawk

    And, regarding kids at work...
    
    I've have brought my son to the office several times each year, 
    but always on a day when I am free to really watch him.  Of course, I
    do work in a sales/service office, not an engineering or phone response 
    one where surrounding quiet would be very important.  However, when my
    son has come with me, I make sure that he is furnished with things to
    do while Mom works, and that I can spend a little time giving him the
    grand tour of the office each time, so he can get to know the people
    Mom sees every day.  It has probably been almost a year since
    he's been in at all, because of school and such.
    
    While my son has been to work with me before, until now has been to young
    to really understand what it is that I do, and what it entails.  He's
    just getting old enough to begin to do so now (he'll be 7 in June).  
    
    Personally, I think it is a shame that the Irvine office, situated here
    in the middle of family-oriented (and bankrupt) Orange County did
    *nothing* to acknowledge this day, and neither did his school.  Of
    course, TODTWD doesn't address my son anyway, so it wouldn't have
    mattered unless IVO made it TOKTWD (K = Kids!).
    
    M.

RE: Many of these replies:

  It sure is a lot easier to complain about TYDTWD than it is to
  organize "Take Your Son To Work Day", isn't it?

                                   Atlant

                    RE: -1

    	How about working on the real problem instead of keeping the kids
    separated.  Or is the us against them attitude part of your agenda?  I
    guess I'm just not part of the group that thinks that two wrongs make a
    right.

    Joe

  In my eyes, there ISN'T any problem with the day as originally
  constructed by the Ms. Foundation. It addresses a clear inequity
  in the way we as a society bring up our girl children.

  If the inequity didn't exist, 52% of the hardware engineers
  around DEC would be female; I'll bet the number's well below
  10%. 52% of the software engineers would be female; I'll bet
  the number's below 25%. (If anyone has the actual numbers,
  please feel free to correct me.)

  You see the problem, so you're free to fix it.

                                   Atlant

  It would also be interesting to cross-correlate the folks who have:

    o In this note have called for strict gender equity

    o In other notesfiles, called for religiously-inspired
      gender roles.


  I assure you that there is some positive correlation.

                                   Atlant

    
    	Atlant -
    
    		So set your meter down a notch. All this gender stuff will
    be totally passe' in another generation. I think a lot of folks are
    just mad they missed it...
    
    		the Greyhawk_who_thinks_this_is_all_quite_amusing

>  In my eyes, there ISN'T any problem with the day as originally
>  constructed by the Ms. Foundation. It addresses a clear inequity
>  in the way we as a society bring up our girl children.


	and instead of trying to fix the underlying problems that
cause the inequity it creates another one.

mike

Imagine the uproar if someone had suggested a `take your sons to work day'.
It doesn't bear thinking about.

Chris.

Chris:

  Try it. Find out. Might not be as loud as you think.

  But of course, if it turned out to be the case that people accepted
  the idea, then you wouldn't be able to use the suggestion anymore as
  a way to bash TYDTWD.
                                   Atlant

I wasn't bashing the idea of TYDTWD as such, just that it's a bit
exclusive, and as such perhaps not as appropriate as it might first
seem given the swing in relative academic and professional progress
in young people.  Having said that, the report I mentioned was based
in the UK, and obviously doesn't reflect the current situation in
the US.

Chris.

    And I think the point is well taken that if, for example, the YMCA had
    sponsored a TYSTWD FIRST, that it would not have happened.  I do
    believe that is a valid assumption.  I also believe that now it would be
    allowed, but not as fully supported as TYDTWD.
                                                   
    This is not pro or con, just a personal observation.
    
    Chuck

    Here at the CSC in ALF, it appeared that the parents made their
    own decisions.  From what I observed it seemed that the girl-boy
    ratio was equal (so if it was supposed to be girls only, that
    fact was ignored).
    
    

    
>  If the inequity didn't exist, 52% of the hardware engineers
>  around DEC would be female; I'll bet the number's well below
>  10%. 52% of the software engineers would be female; I'll bet
>  the number's below 25%. (If anyone has the actual numbers,
>  please feel free to correct me.)
    
    That presumes that girls and boys would have the exact interests (and
    abilities) in a world where they were raised without gender bias.  I
    don't know if I buy that.
    
    In the late 70s the number of women engineering undergraduate students
    at the Ivys and MIT shot up from about 10-15% to about 40%.  That
    occurred in the span of about 5 years.  It's been stuck about the same
    place for about 10 years despite proactive attempts to interest more
    women in engineering and science careers.  
    
    It is not obvious to me that the remaining gap is strictly nuturing
    issues.  There are other points of evidence ... trait tests like the
    Briggs-Myers test, or the placement patterns from B-Schools and
    Engineering schools that also suggest that women and men may have
    slightly different interests.
    
    
    Greg
    

How can a 'traits' test measure what someone's traits
would have been had that person been raised in some manner
other than the way in which they were raised?

    Re: .82
    > In the late 70s the number of women engineering undergraduate
    > students at the Ivys and MIT shot up from about 10-15% to about 40%.
    
    Note that in the case of MIT, at least, that's because there had
    previously been a quota system in effect, limiting the number of
    women offered admission to 7 or 8% of applicants accepted for the
    freshman(sic) class (the higher percent actually enrolled was
    because a higher percentage of women than men accepted the offers.)
    

    
    re .84
    
    >previously been a quota system in effect.
    
    Exactly when was this system in place?
    
    			Ed
    
    

    re: .85
    
    >>previously been a quota system in effect.
    
    > Exactly when was this system in place?
    
    It was in place when I started in 1962;  how far back and forwards
    it extended, I dunno, except that it was dumped in the late 60s or
    early 70s.
    
                                

    
    RE .86 - Karen,
    
    Thanks for the quick response.
    
    So for many years after the quota ended the percentage of women at
    MIT was still very low. This in spite of an AA plan. It was not
    been 'till more recently that the percentage has climbed considerably.
    
    
    Back to the point. I read somewhere where it is boys, not girls
    who need the special attention. The two best stats was that a
    larger percentage of boys drop out, and a larger percentage of girls
    attend college. 
    
    					Ed
    
    

Ed:

  Actually, both sexes need gender-specific attention.  For example,
  hardly any boys drop out due to becoming pregnant.

                                   Atlant

    
> How can a 'traits' test measure what someone's traits
> would have been had that person been raised in some manner
> other than the way in which they were raised?
    
    There are certainly folks who believe totally in nuturing or totaly in
    nature.  Personally, I believe it is a mix.  That said I think
    indivudual kids have natural tendencies to be introverted/extroverted
    or structured/options-open.  There are many tests that measure traits
    like this and they are traits that many believe kids are naturally born
    with.
    
    Greg
    

    
>    > In the late 70s the number of women engineering undergraduate
>    > students at the Ivys and MIT shot up from about 10-15% to about 40%.
>    
>    Note that in the case of MIT, at least, that's because there had
>    previously been a quota system in effect, limiting the number of
>    women offered admission to 7 or 8% of applicants accepted for the
>    freshman(sic) class (the higher percent actually enrolled was
>    because a higher percentage of women than men accepted the offers.)
    
    
    I don't know about the quotas but I do know that when these
    universities reached out to women the percentage of women went way up. 
    
    I also find it interesting that 1) this number shot up when there few role
    models in industry or school and 2) the number stalled short of 50%
    even as more and more role models came into the picture.
    
    I also believe that in general women communicate and groupate (work in
    groups) differently than men.  And these patterns tend to fall into
    60/40 splits which is why I raised the trait stuff.  (60/40 the same
    splits that some career patterns are breaking into by gender).  
    
    To me it is possible that men and women are different in general and
    that all variances from 50% in a career do not indicate something is
    amiss but merely those inherent differences manifesting themselves in
    career choices.  
    
    There are women positive variances that show up that also follow
    this thought line.  A higher percentage of women go into stategic
    consulting, one of the most lucrative fields, leaving b-school.  Those
    are jobs that play to the stengths women have in general (in 60/40
    numbers) if you believe any of the studies on traits and communication.
    
    Greg
    
    

    Re: 87
    
    >So for many years after the quota ended the percentage of women at
    >MIT was still very low.
    
    I don't believe that's correct.  There was considerable pent up demand
    for places.  (It was a standing source of amusement that the grade
    point average for women was higher than for men, because the
    admissions office had to cut off acceptances further up the
    pyramid of applicants to try and stay within the quota.)  My impression
    is that the number of women admitted steadily increased after the
    quota was lifted;  many high schools were not even aware that MIT
    admitted women until AMITA and the admissions office started running
    awareness programs at that time.
    
    

    
   Here is the agenda for SHR's Take your Daughter to Work.  The event was
    a big success here.
    
        
              SHREWSBURY SITE "TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS TO WORK DAY"
  
                          THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 1995
  
                                 --AGENDA--
                                      
   
  TIME                ACTIVITY                     LOCATION
  
  8:15 - 8:30am	      CHECK-IN; "BADGE PICK-UP"    SHR3 Amphitheater
  		      
  8:30 - 9:30am       REFRESHMENTS FOR CHILDREN    SHR3 Amphitheater
  		      GUEST SPEAKERS; AGENDA REVIEW
  		
  9:30 - 10:00am      "MAKE YOUR OWN NAMETAG"	   Sales Conf. Room
  		      (Ages 5 - 9)		   SHR3-1/C14 (West Wing)
  
  9:30 - 10:00AM      "WHAT'S IN A PC?"		   Missisippi Conf. Room
  		      (Ages 10 - up)		   SHR3-1/D11 (West Wing)
  
  10:00 - 10:30am     "WHAT'S IN A PC?"		   Mississippi Conf. Room
  		      (Ages 5 - 9)		   SHR3-1/D11 (West Wing)
  
  10:00 - 10:30am     DIVERSITY WORKSHOP	   SHR3 Amphitheater
  		      (Ages 10 - up)		   
  
  10:30 - 11:30 AM    WALKING TOUR: 2 GROUPS	   Assemble at SHR3
  		        A) Ages 5 - 9		   Amphiteater
  		        B) Ages 10 and up	   
  		        
  11:30 a.m.	      RECONVENE FOR REVIEW	   SHR3 Amphitheater
  		      OF P.M. ACTIVITIES
  
  *11:40 - 12:45pm    -LUNCH; VISIT "LOGO STORE"   SHR3 Cafeteria: Special
  		      -"TIME TO WORK" WITH	   Menu Items for Children
  		          PARENT/GUARDIAN
  *PARENT/GUARDIAN MUST ACCOMPANY CHILD FROM 11:30 - 12:45 pm
  
  12:45 p.m.	      RECONVENE 		   SHR3 Amphitheater
  
  1:00 - 1:35 pm      Videoconference with Stow,    Videoconference Room
  		      MA and Colorado Springs, CO  SHR3-1/Middle
  		      (Ages 5 - 9)
  
  1:00 - 1:35 pm      Video Interactive Demo	   SHR3-1/East Wing
  		      (Ages 10 - up)
  
  1:40 - 2:15 pm      Videoconference with Stow,	   Videoconference Room
  		      and Colorado Springs, CO	   SHR3-1/Middle
  
  1:40 - 2:15 pm      Video Interactive Demo	   SHR3-1/East Wing
  
  2:15 - 3:00 pm      -Recap and Wrap-up Activity  SHR3 Amphitheater
  *PARENT/GUARDIAN    -Snacks and Souvenirs
  MUST ACCOMPANY CHILD
  
  		         			   
                           
    

    The day at Hudson was divided into tours of the various lab facilities. 
    The girls got a "window" tour of Fab-6 (with the younger girls getting
    to take home hairnets and the disposable booties), a demonstration of
    optical microscopy and a demonstration of scanning electron microscopy,
    along with other things.
    
    I was providing a demo on SEM technology, showing the girls how
    cosmetics impact yield in the fabs . I could definitely see a
    difference between the older and younger girls.  The younger girls came
    in with their disposable booties held like a trophy, excitedly trading
    the optical photos they had of coins and dollar bills.  They were very
    interested in the wafer I passed around and asked tons of questions.
    
    The older girls stood there in silence.  I was told later that my demo
    had the opposite effect than what was intended for them.  When I showed
    them how cosmetics affect yield, they didn't want to work here because
    they couldn't wear make-up.
    
    Lisa

    RE .91 - Karen,

    As I recall about 12% of my class ('79) were women. I think the
    current figure is over 30%. I believe MIT as more recently tried
    to sell itself to more high school women. This is good.
    I do not know if women still receive preferential admissions 
    as they did when I attended.

    RE .88 - Atlant

    Right you are.

RE .91 - Karen,

As I recall, about 5% of my class ('74) were women.  As least that
was the number I heard for the incoming class in 1970.  As a young
man on campus, I can verify that there were VERY few women around
at that time.

Jim

    Only a few years before, there were 11 coeds in the Class of '69 at
    Case Tech (prior to the merge with Western Reserve). Unfortunately, at
    the time, they were not even referred to as women. This was about
    2.5% of the class and special dorm arrangements were made with WR to
    house them as there was no housing for women on the Case campus,
    despite its claim to being coed.

I think there were even fewer women in the Class of '74 at Case ( post merge
with WR ). But, by then we were all housed in the same dorms.

>    Only a few years before, there were 11 coeds in the Class of '69 at

Now there's a telling word -- "co-ed", meaning "woman" or "girl".

Not being a native speaker of the American language, I'd
naively have assumed that menbers of both of the sexes attending 
a co-ed school would be termed co-eds.

>Not being a native speaker of the American language, I'd
>naively have assumed that menbers of both of the sexes attending 
>a co-ed school would be termed co-eds.

    Co-eddy's and co-eda's and those who flunked out co-edsel's.

	... a guy working for an engineering firm near Cincinatti who took his 
8-year old girl to work that day, and the first thing on his boss's agenda 
that morning was to lay him off! Security excorted both of them to the door 
immediately and they went home.

	There's a lesson to learn! :>(

    .re .101
    
    Name of the company is SDRC and one of the Digital ISVs. Digital spent
    ( Gave ) tons of money to port their software to Alpha and the port is 
    not fully completed.
                                                         

    re .101
    
    do let us know how much the courts award the daughter in damages.
    
    
    bk