Conference 7.286::digital

    I don't, but the manufacturing side of our facility (TFO)
    works a 4day work week (I'm assuming it's 10 hr days), as
    well as a "C" shift (Fri-Sat-Sun, 12 hr days I think).
    
    pat

    If you are wage class 4, it doesn't matter.
    

    Re -1
    
    No, we are both wage class 2
    
    Roberta

I believe the law varies from state to state.  Call your state's Department
of Labor.

    
    Mr. Sacks has the best idea. It is my understanding that as long
    as you don't exceed 40 hours in a week then overtime is not paid.
    How you distribute that 40 hours is up to the company. I would call
    the state dept. of labor to verify. Should they tell you that personnel
    is all wet (which they probably are) then ask them to send you
    something in writing that you can present to management. 
    
    

    
    	I'm sure that some of the criteria in deciding to (dis)allow
    	you to do this is based on your job function.  If what you
    	do has to be staffed 24 hours/day, 7 days/week, then it 
    	probably doesn't matter much when you work.  SOMEBODY has to
    	work the off hours.
    
    	But if you are the group's secretary, who will staff the office
    	for the one business day you have off?
    
    	Here at the customer support center, our group has some people
    	on 4x10s, but the agreement you must accept is that one of those
    	4 days must be a weekend day.
    
    	Judgement alert:
    
    	If it is really not that important WHEN you do your job, 4x10
    	is a great idea.  Managers who hide behind "rules" or tradition
    	probably don't want to bother with the issue.  Employees who
    	let their managers get away with hiding behind excuses aren't
    	assertive enough.
    
    	Be careful, though.  Your ideas of how (un)important the timing
    	of your presence at your job is may be biased by your wants and
    	needs.  
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    	way back in 1976, i worked as an operator in mr1 where i worked
    	4 10 hour nights where i received 2 hours of overtime each night
    	plus shift differential. The occaisional all-nighter was an
    	ot bonanza...
    
    		bob
    

    The "Orange Book" covers the topic in section 6.41.
    
    Compressed work weeks or "special work weeks" have been around for
    years in New York Region Customer Service. They have been used in both 
    New York and New Jersey in full compliance with local labor laws
    (verefied for both states) that pertain to WC2, WC3, and WC4 and are
    currently in use in one office in New Jersey that I know of.
    
    IMHO they are not practical for normal business because they have a
    premium cost built in, and are difficult to staff (unless rotational
    schedules fit in). If you are trying to address specific issues however
    they can be a blessing.
    
    
    
    

I currently work 4-10 hour days every week. I don't think the issue of 
it being overtime ever came up. It basically came down to whether I had
the type of job where it would be possible to work this schedule. Obviously
it is, since I've been doing it since last summer. On the other hand I'm
a WC4, if I take a day off I put down 8 hours for vacation time rather than
10 and make up the difference at another time. We figured this way nobody in
payroll land would get confused.

Jenna

btw, I love the extra day off!

    I work five 12-hour days every week. I must be doing something wrong!
    
    /se
    

    The reason HR gave you the answer they did is the Walsh Healy Act. This
    says that companies who are involved in interstate comerce must pay OT
    to HOURLY employees on an "over 8 OR over 40" basis. 
    
    My sense is that this has been frequently abused without penalty.
    
    

    According to State law...and God, knows that may have changed without
    us knowing it....if a person works more than 8 hours in one day, the
    extra hours go into overtime.  And, if you work more than 40 hours in
    a week (i.e. 5 days, and some hours on the weekend) the extra hours
    are overtime.  (If you call in sick though one day during the week and
    then work on the weekend, those hours are at regular pay up to the 8
    hrs of sick.) So those people who work 4, 10 hr days, get 2 hours of
    overtime.  I've done payroll time cards and I've seen that this is the
    way it is done, or has to be done by law.  This does not apply to WC4
    employees because they are salaried.  
    
    If Personnel is unable to answer any questions regarding this
    situation, then Payroll ought to be able to.  A lot of people do work
    this type of schedule....so it can't be too damaging ($ wise) to the
    company.  A lot of time people resist changes to the "norm" with 
    immediately saying you can't do something, because they don't want
    to be bothered with anything out of the ordinary....rocking the boat
    so to speak.  But, I would think that Personnel would be more informed,
    or get informed, about an issue that is being done widely throughout
    the company.  Enough said......just gather all your information, and
    keep presenting the positive aspects of the request.  Amazes me how
    the company "says" it is working towards alternative work schedules,
    and management (some anyway) are so resistant to any change from the
    "norm".  I guess I shouldn't be amazed!
                 

	... I would bet that all the laws about pay also have provisions for 
collective bargaining agreements where the "collective" agrees to something 
"out of the norm".  If this is applicable to individuals who agree to give up 
the 2 hours per day, only a labor relations lawyer could say.

    RE:-1 Thats the way I've worked it in the past when I worked 4x10. The
    only thing I have to add is there is a small impact in your pension
    benefites between a 5x8 and 4x10 work week. Last I knew a 40 hour week
    worked as a 5x8 work week placed you as a R40 employee with no overtime 
    and a 4x10 placed you as a R32 employee with 8hr overtime. The R40 is 
    regular 40hr/week and the R32 is regular 32hr/week. It will show this 
    difference on your paycheck under status (R40 or R32).
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

    RE: .13
    
    Collective bargening agreements usually pertain to union shops and in
    the U.S. we don't have union shops in DEC. If you want to see the upper
    management fly teams get all stirred up just start to talk about
    seriously starting up a union shop in DEC.
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    
    

    
    Re: .15
    
    I think your reply creates a misconception.  I believe that the
    term "union shop" refers to a place where you MUST become a member
    of the union to work there.  This is usually because the in the
    bargaining agreement, the employer and union agree on this issue.
    
    There are places, however, where even though certain employees are
    covered by the collective bargaining agreement, it is not required
    that they be members of the union, BUT they can't negotiate for
    themselves separately from the union.  I'm not sure whether there is
    a term to refer to a place where there is a union but where membership
    is not required.  Teachers, for example, are often an example of
    emloyees who are represented by the union but are not necessarily
    members of it.
    
    Steve
    

    
    
      I could be wrong,  but I believe that sometime during the early
    Reagan years,  an  "open shop" law was passed, such that you couldn't
    be forced to join a union as a condition of (continued) employment.  
    My guess is that a "union shop" is any place where a union exists
    and is recognized by the employer,  regardless of what percentage
    of employees actually belong to the union.
    
      I think the current state of affairs is that if a union is formed,
    the employer is forced to recognize it,   and negotiate with it,
    but employees can't be "forced"  to join.  (  I don't know  how
    employers can/do treat non-unionized workers  when a union handles
    collective bargaining.)
    

Websters 9th New Collegate --

  union shop: an establishment in which the employer by agreement is free to
    hire nonmembers as well as members of the union but retains nonmembers on 
    the payroll only on condiiotn of their becoming members of the union within
    a specified time.

  open shop: an establishment in which eligibility for employment and retention 
    on the payroll are not determined by membership or nonmembership in a labor 
    union though there may be an agreement by which a union is recognized as 
    sole bargining agent.

  closed shop: an establishment in which the employeer by agreement hires only 
    union members in good standing.

  right-to-work: opposing or banning the closed shop and the union shop.

	Many states have right-to-work laws and have had for many decades.

	Also, an employer is only required to deal with a union if it is 
    duly elected by the employees.  The elections and the events leading up
    to the election can be VERY ugly indeed!

    
    Re: .18
    
    Thanks, that is just as I understood it.
    
    > ... an employer is only required to deal with a union if it is
    > duly elected by the employees.
    
    This is true.  In NH, there is a specific process that the employees
    of a company must follow.  That process involves a free and open
    election among employees to determine whether they will be represented
    by a union.  You actually petition the LRB (labor relations board) of
    the state and they provide an official to monitor the election.  It
    requires only a simple majority to pass.  If it passes the employer
    is required by law to work with the union as the SOLE bargaining agent
    for whatever employees it covers.
    
    Steve
    

The 4by10 style of work week is excellent if you must run a 3 shift 7 x 24 type 
operation such as the large computer rooms the group I manage staffs.

Yes you pay OT for the second 2 hours (so what). I have a staff that gets an
extra weekend day. On the overlap day and times when everyone is on site we
have the staff meeting, do the projects that require extra hands, etc.

Benefits to me (the manager) 
	1. 7 day by 24 hour coverage with an easy to understand schedule.
	2. People who get a little extra money for the hassle of long 
	   days/nights.

Benefits to the people:
	1. An extra weekend day.
	2. some extra money.
	3. Some flexibility in work days. ( As long as schedule get covered,
	   we really don't worry if you swap with other people on your shift.)

The 4 day by 10 hour works for me because I support it, and there really aren't
too many other ways to make up an equitable 7 day by 24 hour work schedule.

/jon

    re:  .4  I called the Massachusetts Department of Labor.  There is no
    law regarding overtime for anything over 8 hours in a day, just
    anything over 40 hours in a week.  They are going to send me a copy of
    the law.
    
    re:  .6  We are both dept coord.  We have proposed one working
    Mon-Thurs and the other Tues-Fri.  With us reverting back to a "normal"
    5 x 8 shift on weeks with holidays or vacation.  There is nothing that
    either of us do that cannot be taught to the other to maintain all
    functions in the office.  
    
    re: .10  YOUR DEFINETLY DOING SOMETHING WRONG!!!!
    
    re: .14  I hope your wrong.  We would prefer to be R40 employees.  We
    will be working 40 hours and we do not want to incur overtime.
    
    Thanks for all the response, please keep them coming.
    
    Roberta
    

    Re .21
    
    The question I'd ask is. Is the extra 2 hours per day of additional
    coverage needed? If so then I'd see no problem with 4x10 being worked.
    But if those 2 hours don't need to be covered each day then I'd have
    thought 4x8 would be more appropriate. The other question I'd ask is
    why does this department only need 1 department coordinator on Mondays
    and Fridays but 2 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday?
    
    This sounds like a far more complex problem than simply a 4x10 against
    a 5x8 problem.
    
    Dave

    	re .21 (re .6)
    
    	OK, well it is not important that you convince US in this 
    	conference of the merits of your proposal, but rather to
    	convince your management.
    
    	Reply 22 has a valid point.  Be careful that you don't convince
    	your management to eliminate one of your jobs!  You currently
    	run with two people each day.  How can you suddenly get by with
    	only one per day on Monday and Friday?  If you *can* do it, then
    	why not run with only one person all week!
    
    	BUT!  I also want to add that sometimes is is better to have
    	10 hours of office staffing each day rather than 8.  In the
    	average office there are early people and late people.  All
    	work their 8 hours.  But it often happens that the early people
    	have no office support early in the morning, and the late
    	people have no support late in the evening.  Ten hours of
    	office support coverage instead of 8 can accommodate more
    	of the extreme hours' needs.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    Roberta,
    
    This isn't going to help you out immediately, but some day soon we may
    get the DEC_SECRETARY conference back up and running on a new home
    (node BUGSEY).  We're working on it...  It will be a good place to ask
    the same question of other WC2s.
    
    For those of you who are wondering:  DEC_SECRETARY will be back up and
    running!  Stay tuned!  We need to transfer the file, etc.  Unfortun-
    ately, one of our good friends, and the host of DEC_SECRETARY and
    WOMANnotes was laid off not too long ago.  Hence, node MOMCAT "went
    away."
    
    Again Roberta, hang in there.  My best advice to you is to continue to
    network.  And watch for the re-activation of DEC_SECRETARY, where I
    would suggest that you post the same question.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia                         

    re .22 and .23
    
    The additional 2 hours would be a benefit to the department but not a
    necessity.
    
    Both positions cover ALOT of paperwork.  Paperwork can be done in any
    40 hour period.  It doesn't really matter how those hours are taken -
    8x5=40, and 4x10=40!
    
    The issue of only getting by with only one coordinator in the office on
    Monday and Friday's isn't really applicable - as when ever one is out
    sick, on vaction, or covering a meeting the other is alone.
    
    My boss doesn't really care how many people are in the office at any
    given time as long as there is somebody here to service the customers
    needs.
    
    re .24
    Thanks, for the suggestion.  I will keep an eye out.
    
    Roberta