Conference 7.286::digital

    Aw, come on, Jack. I have a degree in economics, and that taught me
    that Downsizing is not the only nor the best method for improving the
    profitability of the corporation. What's the goal? A Digital that'll
    fit inside the Mill again. Address the other issues first, and
    profitabilty will be come automatic.
    
    q
    

    Does anyone know if the TSFO package would be the same as the previous
    one. That is:
                    0 - 2    13 weeks
    		    3 - 10   3 weeks per to a max of 24
    		   11 - 20   4 weeks per to a max or 40
                                                        = a max of 77

    That article spoke of "lay-off's", not TFSO's.  Are we talking apples
    and oranges here ?
    
    Jerry

   Re:   <<< Note 1843.3 by RAVEN1::JERRYWHITE "Hey you're pretty good - NOT !" >>>

Jerry,

   There are no guarantees, but every layoff in the past has
   been accompanied by a TFSO (Transition Financial Support
   Option), so while the two are not the same, we can expect
   that the layoff implies the TFSO.
   
Dick

    I was hoping that was the case.  DEC may do a number of things wrong,
    but historicaly, they've always taken care of "right_sized" employees.
    Most companies give you a pat on the back (while they're checking your
    briefcase for extra pens).
    
    Jerry

    
    Through all the righteous gloom and doom, I find the choice of words in
    .0 a small ray of hope. Calling a spade a spade and a layoff a layoff
    is a sign of acceptance, the first step on the road to recovery.
    

    
    I happen to agree with Dick, plus near the end of the Livewire report,
    it mentioned a possible restructuring charge against Q4 earnings. This
    tells me that the TFSO's will continue, whether they'll be the same as
    the last one is anybody's guess.
    
    Mark

re .6:

A 12-step program for upper management?

    Does anyone believe (he said with tongue slightly in cheek) that the
    next round of lay-offs will touch the thousands of entrenched middle
    and senior managers in the greater Maynard area?
    
    I'm guessing there are probably five thousand.  Can anyone confirm?
    
    I'll betch'a this news will also push a couple thousand undecided SERP
    candidates off the fence.
    
    Would also not be at all surprised to see a total pay freeze
    implemented very quickly....with possible pay cuts.  Things could get
    very interesting.

>    Would also not be at all surprised to see a total pay freeze
>    implemented very quickly....with possible pay cuts.  Things could get
>    very interesting.

	An other total pay freeze? No I don't think so. There is every
	indication that upper management was not happy with the results last
	time.

			Alfred

    Yeah but....last time there was someplace to go on the outside for
    those who couldn't live with the pay freeze.  Where would they go
    now?  I hope not, but I still think it is a real posisibility

    
    Seems to me we've proven that pay freezes don't work. In good times you
    lose some of your best people, in bad times you just create a lot of
    discontent.
    
    Now if they declared a *net* 0% average raise, with up to +10% for
    1's and 2's financed by up to -10% for 4's and 5's, they might
    accomplish something!
    

re: .12
    
>    Now if they declared a *net* 0% average raise, with up to +10% for
>    1's and 2's financed by up to -10% for 4's and 5's, they might
>    accomplish something!
    
What exactly do you think that would accomplish?
Let me guess, you would by definition cause some employees to be rated
a 4 or 5 even when they didnt deserve it. Why, because their manager just
gave a rating of a 1 or 2 to someone else and by your rule s/he must now
balance that with a 4 or 5.

- George

    perhaps the best thing for DEC to do now would be to reinstate an
    attractive TFSO and open it up to everybody. I'll bet by now that there
    may be a pent-up demand to leave rather than hang around as the company
    compresses. It isn't clear however that we could survive potential 
    lawsuits from previously TFSO'd employees if it were to be a better 
    financial package but then again perhaps we could. It is however
    interesting that cost of sales continues to increase as we continue to
    cut people and expenses. Perhaps this is due to declining margins or
    there is an expense hole that noone has found or perhaps one has been
    found but upper management may lack the political will necessary to
    close it down or............. sigh....
    

    I am in favor of a lottery in the company to decide who gets the TFSO. 
    This would remove politics and favoritism from the selection process. 
    In the long run, the results would probably be fairer.
    
    
    Bill Slater
    Colorado Springs, CO

    RE: .15 Do the winners get to stay or do the winners leave? :-)
    
    			Alfred

    re .14 .... "as the company 'compresses'"????  Wouldn't "implodes"
    be more appropriate.
    
    On a voluntary package...one might hope that they will finally see the
    light.  But, then, the whole "compression" process so far has been
    bassackwards up to now, so why would anyone expect them to do the smart
    thing now?

	At the recent (last week) partners' meetings, Zereski got up and
	said that there would be no more TFSO for the field.  Looks like
	layoff might just mean that.

tgc

    
    RE: -.1
    
    Just as a clarification... he said there were **no plans** at present
    for a field layoff.  He didn't say there would not be one.
    
    TFSO=Digitalese for the layoff package, right?
    
    	Dave

    
    re .13:
    
    Good gosh, we don't have managers who would rate people as 4's and 5's
    just to give them low raises, do we??  :-)
    
    Note that I am totally against creating 4's and 5's just to fund the
    1's and 2's (which may even be going on today); I'm just suggesting that
    it might be possible to maintain feedback and incentives through salary
    action in spite of a corporate decision not to add to (or even to [shudder]
    decrease) the salary pot.
    
    Every year DEC says "the corporate average raise will be n.n%"; a
    paraphrase for "this year we have $mmmmmmm to add to the payroll".
    Assuming freedom to disburse this with maximum effectiveness (a big
    assume, I grant you), managers are empowered to give amywhere from
    0% to lets say 2*n.n% (assuming a somewhat balanced distribution; see
    note on assumptions above).
    
    In the past when wages were frozen, this distribution around a point
    was set to 0 -- nobody's pay changed. This caused 0 feedback, 0
    incentive, with the results we've seen.
    
    What I'm saying is, if DEC decides it doesn't have more cash for the
    payroll pot this year, so be it -- but maintain a distribution around
    the point, maintain feedback, maintain incentive of some sort.
    
    Thus, if you shoot for a +/-5% around the average raise, in good times
    a 1 might get 10% and a 5 might get 0%; in bad times a 1 might get 5%
    and a 5 might get -5%.
    

re: .21

Okay, I understand. One thing that I disagree with thou.
I good times a 5 should get 0% but, in bad times a 5 should get an escort
to the door.

- George

    
    re .23  --  The note about the Deming Seminar is 1837.28 -- It's well
    worth reading.
    
    I'm reminded of the Ben Franklin quote "...we must all hang together
    or we'll all hang separately"
    
    /John

    I was there at the combined partner meeting March 30.  Here are my notes
    on Zereski's comments regarding layoffs:
    
    "No more plans for TFSO for Sales, Sales Support, or Services in the
    field. . . TFSO is over for the field."  (My notes have these comments
    quoted.)
    
    According to my notes, Zereski also went on to say there are plans to 
    recruit 300-400 college students for technical sales support and delivery
    jobs in the field.  As I recall, Zereski said they plan to recruit
    these people, send them thru a training curriculum, and then put them
    to work.
    
    He defended his comments about no more TFSO in the field by asking why
    would he be planning layoffs in the field while at the same time
    recruiting new people from college campuses?
    
    (My editorial comment - after reading .0, maybe we ought to ask Jack
    Smith this question.)
    
    If you assume the article posted in .0 quotes Jack Smith accurately, I
    think it is possible to reconcile Smith's and Zereski's comments.  The
    cuts *could* be coming in mfg,  engineering, and other parts of the
    company this time around, leaving the field intact.  Or it could be
    that Smith and Zereski simply have different views on the world.
    
    I'm not yet ready to call Zereski a liar.  
    
    - Greg

    RE: .24
    
    >I'm reminded of the Ben Franklin quote "...we must all hang together
    >or we'll all hang separately"
    
    Not that it matters, but are you sure that was Franklin?  I seem to
    remember it was one of his contemporaries, Thomas Paine, perchance.
    

    From Bartlet's Familiar Quotations:
    
    		We must all hang together, or assuredly
    		we shall all hang separately.
    
    			Benjamin Franklin at the signing
    			of the Declaration of Independence
    					[July 4, 1776]

In good times or bad times, a 5 that remains a 5 needs an escort to the door.
By definition they're eligible for 0% as long as they're here. When they
go, they're at -100%. But that's no excuse to redistribute their 100% among
those that are left.

While I won't claim that there are no managers who "create" 5's for some
purpose, to do so is no more irresponsible than "creating" 1's which aren't
justified.

-Jack

    re: .15
    
    The last lottery I was in was 21 years ago. I lost big time. I ended
    winning an all expenses paid trip to an exclusive camp for boys at
    Fort Dix, NJ. I still have a bad taste about lotteries. I vote NO
    for a DEC lottery. :^(

    
    
    
        What ever we do, lets do it and get it over with! I know DEC is
    trying to be humane about this, and has been a lot better (with $$$
    for those departing) then most large companies (ask anyone who has 
    worked for G.E.) But dragging it out over 18 to 24 months has had a
    major impact on morale.
    
    
    
                                                 Phil...

    Re: .29
    
    Yup. Last Lottery I "won" got my butt in Vietnam. I don't want any part
    of them anymore.
    
    Gene.

    I see some very sad trends going on here.  In a time when this this
    country is struggling to remain competitive with major industrial
    giants like Germany and Japan, the corporations here in America are
    struggling with the idea of LAYOFFS for their employees.
    
    As I see it, this has several very negative effects:
    
    1)  It has a severe negative impact on employee morale.
    
    2)  It destroys any notion of corporate loyalty.  Both coming from the
        employee to the corporation and vice versa.
    
    3)  It makes life tougher for the employees who remain in the
        corporation because they must carry additional responsibilities.
    
    4)  It weakens the American economy, because it weakens each
        corporation, and also results in people being unemployed.
    
    
    From what I know about Japanese society, you can leave high school
    and/or college, get into a job and remain there for life.  True, they
    have more stringent productivity standards than the average American
    company, but in the average Japanese company, the loyalty thing works
    both ways.  The average Japanese worker wouldn't dream of changiing
    jobs.  They work their butts off for the corporation and the
    corporation looks out for them.
    
    In my opinion, we could stand to learn a great deal from the way they
    do things in Japanese companies.
    
    In the meantime, what's happening at DEC and the way things are going
    to pan out over the next 6 - 12 months, are just signs that there are
    some very big problems that we as Americans are facing not only in our
    company, but on a larger scale in the entire country.
    
    I don't have any quick answers, but I know that some tough times are
    ahead for DEC and the US.  And I know that LAYOFFS can cause at least
    as many problems as they are thought to "cure".
    
    
    Bill Slater

    re .32
    
    Comparing the US to Japan is like apples and oranges. The fact is that
    DEC HAS been a company that took care of it's employees through hard
    times. Ever heard of the "sweeping the parking lot" stories?
    
    The issue is larger than DEC. Why do we need quarterly reports? Why not
    just annual? DEC is under such pressure from Wall St to show positive
    results daily that it soesn't have the time to formulate workable long
    range plans. I have often heard that an LRP is an oxymoron at DEC.
    Well, I wonder if LRP's are an oxymoron for any large US company....
    
    Rich
    

    
    I support the recruiting of college students.  In the field, we need
    people to help do the work.  So many times we get into a meeting with
    8-10 people and most all of them are there to help "manage" the
    process or "find the resources".  It's much harder to find someone who
    will actually configure the system, reply to the customer request, or
    write the proposal.

Re: .32

Reports of "how the Japanese do it" tend to be very selective
in their discussion of which companies and what employees.
I have also seen it reported that the "lifetime opportunity"
applies only to the largest, soundest companies, which represent
only a fraction of the Japanese workforce (50%?  5%? - I don't know).
It's also the case that a "loyal" company will spin off an entire division
that has been staffed with "non-performers" to sink or swim.

As the saying goes, "be careful what you pray for, you just might get it."

- tom]

    perhaps Digital should go about the business of identifying its core
    set of employees and then do something about protecting them. This
    would probably help us from losing folks that are key to DEC's success.
    Folks for example who designed key products and services such as ALPHA
    etc.. This of course wouldn't make those that are not protected very
    happy  but certainly leaving the fate of a company to
    something as random as a "lottery" seems a bit bizarre as well as
    extremely irresponsible. I'm sure the stockholders wouldn't sit still for 
    something like that. Not they are sitting very still now anyway. I
    would think that for DEC to have any long term success down the road
    that one must come to grips with the conclusion that the Digital logo
    is not what makes Digital a company that produces industry leading
    goods and services ( he says with nary an inhalation ). I just hope
    that somwhere/ someplace there is someone with ranking authority that
    hopefully understands this.
    
    

    Re .34
    Why does DEC have quarterly reports?
    
    I'm afraid it's an SEC (Stock Exchange Commission) requirement
    for US companies to give quarterly reports.
    
    I'm sure that shareholders in public quoted companies in a lot
    of other countries would like to have that as well.
    
                                         Max

    
      I agree w/ .37 - the lottery idea is not in the best interests of
    the company. I understand the idea of trying to bring fairness into the
    equation, commendable but not practical. The LAST thing Digital needs
    to do is dump the personnel tha are revenue generators!!!
      Just keep in mind there are a lot of direct labor people out there
    that Digital gets a premium for and that many customers and competitors 
    would hire for their aquired expertise! Even in a lousy job market
    there are still a lot of Digital employees with marketable skills.
    
    							-John R-

    Unfortunately .37, we do almost exactly the opposite in terms of
    protecting our key employees.  Just look at what happened to the
    hundreds of people who put their hearts and souls in the VAX 9000
    (remember that one?).  They were dumped like three-day-old fish
    as soon as things started going badly.  Look at Puerto Rico and
    their excellent record on building 6000's.  You know what their
    reward was, right?.  Digital NEVER was the kind of company the
    propaganda machine wanted us to believe it was.

    re: .-?, College grads a good idea, meetings full of non-nutritive
    filler-types;

    Ahem, I think you missed the point. The non-nutritive filler stays. The
    college grads replace those grumpy and uncooperative individual
    contributor resources that we have today. As far as a resource manager
    can tell, one resource is pretty much like another resource, except the
    college grad resources are cheaper than those older resources, see?

    And yes, by golly, them young pups will need lots of resource managin'
    and mentorin' from the burgeoning mob of first and second-level
    managers.

    re: .42, .40
    
    I agree with Tom, even though I've only been an employee since 1975.
    I was a customer from 1963 to 1975.
        John Sauter

    
    A few notes back suggested we cut manufacturing. Sure!! heck we've only
    been cut from 50K to 25K in the past couple of years.  We can support
    the additional 10K+ Jack's been quoted as needing. Heck yes.
    
    
    Then again,  There are 116,000. employees in DEC, Manufacturing is
    app 25K,  WHat's the other 90K been doing to support value added?
    
    
    

    
    
    re .44
    
    	I wonder how the DEC population breaks down....
    
    	25K Manufacturing
    	10K Engineering ( I don't know if that includes hardware )
    
    	and so on.....
    

    
    A suggestion:
    
    How about posting a list of job titles and letting us all vote on 
    whether the position is nescessary?  Titles like "Senior Marketing
    Manager, SCSI cables" would be in instant target!
    
    Seriously, I'd *LOVE* to see some of the titles we have in this company!
    
    -Ed
    

    RE: .45
    
    When I first joined DEC in 1964 this was done with MIT Undergraduates
    who eventually hired as full time employees.  The logic isn't the same
    but, as I remember these folks were the "core" of our best designer and
    software engineers.

    re .44 ..... find someone who has the SERP package.  There is a
    document included which lists every job title and the number of
    people in that job.  On closer inspection though, it doesn't
    contain ANY of the higher level jobs.  Wonder if VP's, etc., got
    a better or different offer?

   Re:                        <<< Note 1843.45 by LABC::RU >>>

>    I can't believe this -- TSFO a lot, then hire college
>    graduate?  DEC is doing this? 

Its cheaper than teaching the old dogs (like me) new tricks!

Dick

     I took some notes and came up with the following (now out of date)
     information:

             Engineering   --  12,481
             Manufacturing --  29,510
             Field         --  76,147
                              -------
             Total            118,138

     I think that was about one year ago.

             m

    I once saw a list of titles at DEC. It makes one want to gnash his/her
    teeth and wail when a person reads that and imagines how much a person
    is probably getting paid for doing a job that your average thirteen
    year-old could do.
    
    Ken

RE: .51

>             Engineering   --  12,481
>             Manufacturing --  29,510
>             Field         --  76,147
>                              -------
>             Total            118,138

This is a very poor breakdown. Total Personel - Engineering -
Manufacturing does not equal the number of personel in the field.  

    RE: .51
    
    I have heard that the ratio of corporate people to field people is 6
    corporate to 1 field person. I question your field statistic.
    
    
    Ed

    	Last I heard, that engineering number broke down to roughly 7k
    hardware and 5k software, but I find that a little hard to believe now
    since hardware engineering's been hit pretty hard.

    How come you're only counting Engineering, Manufacturing, and the
    Field?  Does everybody in DEC fit under one of these umbraellas?  What
    about the vast organizations which pack the IL warehouses along the
    eastern Mass. - southern N.H axis?
    
    I'm thinking of people like corporate finance, legal, investor
    relations, P.R. , etc.
    
    Larry

    On the subject of Manufacturing population. The last numbers I saw from
    somebody's notes from a presentation to Bob Palmer stated that;
    
      At Start of FY91 -       37K+
      Current population -     21K+ 
    
    I would expect that the FY93 ending  population would be around 18-19K
    after the loss of 1.2K folk in Puerto Rico, and other rumored plant
    closings/consolidations.
    
    I have also heard the figure of 15K bandied about as the eventual
    population goal of Mfg.
    
    Not all the losses from the Mfg population (about 16K) have ended
    leaving the company. Some have transfered to Field and Engineering
    organizations. I don't know what the percentages are in each category.
    
    /jim

>   I can't believe this -- TSFO a lot, then hire college
>   graduate?  DEC is doing this? 

	For the company's sake, I hope so. Without new blood and fresh
	ideas, a company runs the risk of stagnation. Even in the worst 
	of times, the company should be able to bring in at least a few 
	top prospects from several fields. The top performers of 1997
	may already be in the company now, but perhaps some of the top 
	performers of 2002 are about to graduate...

					Tom_K

    If you want the "new blood" to provoke change, it won't happen at entry
    level from college students.  The leaders and rule_makers need to be
    changed, or at least shook up a bit.  The old school doesn't work
    anymore.
    
    Jerry

    
    Another way to look at this new graduate hire dilema is:
    
    Since old schooler won't learn, won't move, won't adopt new games
    rule of 1992's management/sales/technology field. The only way is to exile it.
    For the new graduate, pay is less, working hour is longer. Why not ?
    That's how we loss auto/electronic business to Japan, loss Textile industry to
    Southeast Asia, steel industry etc, you name it. If we wish to enjoy 
    better living standard, we need to improve our productivity, and
    quality/servic eof our product compare to, IBM, SUN, or NEC, Hitach
    etc.
    
    I also voted for not only hire top talents engineering graduate,
    but also top class MBA new blood, and replace our management team.
    
    I'll bet 9 out of 10 computer science students learn UNIX/PC in school
    these days, not VMS anymore, never to say PDP-11. If old dog can't
    produce twice output compare to new/young graduate, why you think
    company will pay twice the salary for veterans ?  This is the same
    concepts as why G.M, or Ford need to pay their CEO/Executive several
    times more salary their Toyota/Honda counterpart. Computer industry
    in large is no differnt from auto industry. DEC just went through
    bad cycles now, and we need blood transfussion if we can avoid
    AIDS affection we will be dame healthy.
    
    Last thought, don't we all are new graduates once upon a time ?
    Working a job as life time security, and float with big boat is
    long gone in computer industry. I feel sorrow for this IBM employee
    written his essay on N.Y. Times weeks ago.
    
    
    Michael...
                                           

re .60

	Of course they won't make an impact right away, hence my reference
	to the year 2002. I firmly believe that there are people in 
	engineering schools right now that will have a dramatic
	impact on the future of computing. Should we let our competitors
	have them all? Sure, determining which ones to hire is a gamble. 
	But if we hire no one, our chances of getting these folks is 0.

					Tom_K

    Has anyone heard of the possibility of a Voluntary Program whereby
    folks can volunteer to leave the company with an accompanying package?
    
    Karen

    I think if there were such a plan - DEC would be reduced to about 30 or
    40 people.  8^)
    
    Jerry

	Heard about it all the time. Been hearing about it for months. But
	never from anyone in a position to actually know if it will really
	happen.

				Alfred

    Strongly disagree...betcha at least 1,000 would volunteer in the U.S.

RE: hiring college grads

I believe that one of the earlier replies stated that these folks were
being hired for field sales support and delivery positions, right??

From what I have seen, these jobs are "burnout" positions, i.e. the folks
in these positions are expected to work big hours with no overtime or
personal time off.  College grads will put up with these conditions so
that they get experience and work history.  But most of us old timers will
not for many reasons (we want family time, vacations, etc.)  So it would
appear that this is a good fit for both the company and the grads.

One other thing, someone stated that hiring grads was a way for the 
company to get the next generation of movers and shakers into the fold.
Statistics say that the average person only stays two to three years with
the company they first work for before moving on to a new/better position
in another company.  That is the way Americans get ahead.  Not even K.O.
started with this company!

Just my $.02

Lee G.

BTW, I define old timer as over thirty :-)

    	I totally agree with bringing in "new" talent and I am positively
    sure that "they" can be totally productive with a 2 week indoctrination
    of every product/service that we (DEC) has. Then "they" will be the
    star performers  that will turn this company around. If you think for 
    one millsecond that this could happen I have neat ocean front lot in
    Arizona  I'll sell you real cheap.
    	If you want new blood or a transfusion it better start from the 
    " IVORY TOWER" down not from bottom up. We probably could save 500
    million if you got rid of all of the "IVORY TOWER PERKS"
    	regards
    	John
    

    Our customers already think we're crazy.....this insane idea would
    absolutely confirm that for all time.

    re: 1843.69
    
    	I agree...until the "CHIEFS" understand the fact that you CANNOT
    defeat the calvery without the indian braves...I think all is lost.
    
    It is about time we look at all of the expertise that the "Informed"
    few allowed and even pushed out of this company.  If the top end is
    allowed to remain and continue as they are...there won't be a DEC in
    2002...at least not the American owned one that exists today.  
    
    Management has got to wake up to the fact that without all of us
    "LITTLE GUYS"...there is no DEC, there is no product and there is no
    Ivory Tower.  MBA's are all well and good...but if you don't know 
    engineering...you cannot understand engineers...(ie VAX 9000).  You
    have to invest in the future...All across the board...designing
    something totally new (Alpha is a good example)...but in many cases,
    the new designs are a remake of someone elses product.  (ie. DEC
    (TANDY/OLIVETTI) PC's...You can't realistically sell a product for
    twice what it can be purchased for in a store and do well in the
    market.  We could make a real K*** A** pc...but the profit per unit
    isn't big enough for the MBA's.  Guess what guys, 100,000 machines X
    $100 profit is $10,000,000.  Not bad when volume is taken into effect...
    
    IMHO
    
    DLM

    I like the college grad's idea.. sure, 'old' guys like me, making a
    good professional salary, will get pushed aside, but, hey, all the
    college kids know UNIX for real and would make us VERY competitive in
    field sales support.
    
    karl

Z. said very clearly today during his DVN that the college newhires would be
targeted at delivery/revenue positions. They will undergo a 12 week training
program. He was also clear in saying that this effort was to ensure that we have
people in place that can deliver the projects/SI business that we are continuing
to grow.

Seemed pretty positive to me.

The unstated assumption though was that TFSO only got rid of non-performers. An
idea that not many people believe is true, at least from the bottom up.

- Andy -

    I was going to tell /inform people about what happened where I work,
    what will it accomplish, nothing, will the people in the glass twower
    read this?  NO. So what is the use!!!????
    
    Disgusted.
    

    RE: TFSO getting rid of non_performers ...
    
    So the new DEC motto should be "pay for endurance" rather than "pay for
    performance".
    
    I saw a quote once (may have been in here) that summed up a lot of
    DEC's problems right now.  It went something like ...
    "The good folks give up and leave, the others give up and stay".
    
    I really don't see how TFSO's help, unless it's at the upper_level BIG
    dollar positions.  And, that's where the stale air is as well.  But,
    who in the ivory tower is willing to throw themselves out in order to
    help save the company ?  Methinks not.
    
    So what happens ?  OK, I'll tell ya anyway ...  8^)
    
    The fat cats get fatter, and die.
    
    In the meantime, the creative minds either leave the company, or sit on
    their hands waiting for a TFSO.  Nobody wins.
    
    
    Jerry

    The next DVN I WILL ask the questions that everyone is afraid to ask.
    I had my chance last night, I blew it. I will not the next time.
    
    A promise.
    

    This 90-day wonder program scares me....particularly as a wounded
    combat combat vet of another similar wet dream a few years back.  I
    also seriously question that the new TFSO will target only marginal
    or poor performers.......why should they change what has worked so
    well in getting rid of good people up to now?
    
    The good news (I think) is a memo making the rounds of the network
    this morning stating that Strecker has been fired.  Could this be the
    beginning of a much-too-late house cleaning in the ivory tower?  

    re -1
    
    If the rumour is true that Bill Strecker has gone, I for one do _not_
    think it is good news but rather the opposite.
    
    Bill Strecker has always impressed me with his grasp of what the
    computer industry is really about and one of the few senior managers to
    be able to define how it should progress. If he truly has
    departed, then Digital will be substantially the weaker 
    strategically.
    (IMHO)
    
    John

    
    Re: .71
    
    Yeah Karl, wouldn't it be nice to have more than three people within a 
    thousand mile radius who know how to tar a tape!!!
    
    Seriously, there are plenty of us who are overburdened with rudimentary 
    UNIX stuff that only sales support types are expected to do.  My
    expensive time could be better spent if we had some Jr. UNIX types to
    offload to!  Heck, maybe I could be promoted to a position where I
    could make some changes!... -NOT-!!
    
    -Ed
    

    re: nonperformers
    
    ko in an interview was once asked "how many people worked at DEC"
    his answer was "about half"
    
    .....!!!

    That's an overestimate accoriding to the internationally recognised
    80/20 rule.
    
    /a

    
    
    	I don't know... Whereas we've all seen people in this company 
    	who we wonder what they actually do, We've also seen in the 
    	past few years *lots* of project cancellations.
    
    	In this case we're not talking about non-productive employees
    	we're talking about non-productive business decisions.
    
    	I've personally been involved in a project that was cnacelled
    	after 10 years of work ( from concept-> to prototype -> to field
    	test ) where at it's peak this project employed nearly 100 people.
    
    	Look at the other large projects that have been cancelled PRISM,
    	ARGONAUT, ANDROMEDA etc....
    
    	All these projects had *top* very expensive engineers and support
    	people who put alot of themselves into each one of the projects
    	only to find that marketting windows closed / company direction
    	had changed / inadequate planning in preliminary stages /
    	underestimated tasks etc....
    
    	None of these were the fault of the individual contributor who 
    	was hired to do the job. I'd hazard to guess that these business
    	decisions that started these projects only to cancel them years
    	down the road are more costly than all the people who pretend
    	to work from day one to the present combined...
    
    						Mike
    						----

My suggestions for first things to do if we have to downsize further:

	1. Give the Executive Committee a list of all of the job codes in the 
	   company with one paragraph explaining what their added-value is.

	2. Give the Executive Committee a list of everyone in the company who
	   has a job code indicating that they manage people AND who have less
	   than 10 direct reports.

	3. Identify those groups and people that are more than 5 levels of 
	   management away from KO. Find out why and fix it.

	4. Offer a company-wide voluntary TFSO program and at the same time 
	   offer an attractive compensation/incentive package for those skills
	   and individuals who are deemed critical.

	5. Stop the re-orgs and start kicking some management butt.

Jim

    re.80 No, Andy, according to the 80/20 rule it's an *over*estimate ;-)

    
    re: .81
    
    Boy, did Mike ever hit on one of my hot buttons. For most of the last
    3 years, I worked very hard on projects which were ultimately cancelled
    (or had their releases cancelled). My situation is typical of many
    here in VMS.
    
    I worked extremely hard during that period, and produced quite a bit
    of software. But the company has gotten no benefit from my hard work,
    and I've become demotivated in the process.
    

    re:L  Way back  in the talk about numbers of engineering, mfg, and
    field
    folks.
    
    I was at a meeting a few months ago (August) in Seattle and Russ
    Gulloti was there.  In his introduction, it was  mentioned that he
    has ~65,000 employees under him.  He's responsible for the field, etc..
    
    JD

    re: -1
    
    Maybe when Russ is flying cross-country there are 65,000 employees
    "under" him.
    
    At last check, Russ was VP of Digital Services.  I thought Russ
    reported to Z, and I don't believe there are 65,000 people in the 
    US Field, let alone the services organization.
    
    I suspect you heard wrong.
    
    Al
    

    Russ does not report to Z.  They are peers.  Z manages the US.  Russ is
    corporate DS manager.  The US DS Managers (Keating/Wood) report to both
    Russ and Z as I understand the world.

    re: .87
    
    Given the fluidity of reporting relationships at that level, perhaps
    you can excuse my confusion?
    
    Still, ain't no way there are 65,000 employees in Digital Services.
    
    Al
    

    RE: .88
    
    Sure, I can excuse your confusion.  Need a couple of Cray systems to
    track the DEC org chart in real time!
    
    I don't know the population of Digital Services these days, but when
    you start counting the old Customer Services, EIS, Ed Services, CSS,
    Digital Services Engineering, etc. world wide, I think you will find a
    lot of people.  I dunno if it would be 65000 though.
    

	... that was forwarded to me from a friend:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Gullotti:
	.
	.
	.
* Today: 42% of DEC revenue  services business, while population has
  decreased 9% from FY90(41.7K) - FY92(38.0K)
	.		 ^^^^^	       ^^^^^
	.
	.

    .-1   What does that mean???

    Hey, all I know was I was at  a meeting (Boeing Business  Group) and 
    at that time it said he had something like 65,000 people in his
    organizations.   But, didn't he actually have more  than services in
    his reporting structure??  Whatever.  It's just  a number.
    
    JD

    It was reported on the business news this morning that Digital
    will be laying off another 15000 employees with the start of the
    new fiscal year July 1. They said that represented 10% of the work
    force. Well what do you know..........
    

The local paper in Dallas Saturday (so I was told, I haven't read it yet) says
that 4K in Q4, 3K of which are expected thru SERP and 1K from sales & support.
If I can get the hardcopy, I'll post any relevant public information.

>    will be laying off another 15000 employees with the start of the
>    new fiscal year July 1. They said that represented 10% of the work
>    force. Well what do you know..........

     Digital does _not_ have 150,000 employees.

             Mike

headline: Stocks To Watch -(DEC) Sees Up To $1Bln 4Q Chg For Job Cuts


  DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP.:  The company said Friday that it will take a chage
of up to $1 billion in the current quarter to cut another 10,000 to 15,000
jobs, or more than 10% of its work force, in the fiscal year beginning July 1.
 Digital also said it might take a separate accounting-related charge,
estimated by analysts at $750 million before tax benefits, to pay for
post-retirement health-care costs, The Wall Street Journal reports.

  Executives confirmed that they expect to cut about 4,000 jobs in the fiscal
fourth quarter ending June 30, reaching the previously planned goal of 10,000
job cuts for fiscal 1992.  The company still has reserves left from the $1.1
billion charge taken in fiscal 1991's fourth quarter to cover job cuts in
fiscal 1992.

  Analysts expect Digital to report losses through at least the first two
quarters of the next fiscal year as it brings down costs and continues to cut
its work force, the Journal reports.

  Shares of Digital, which also detailed a strategic alliance with Microsoft
Corp. (MSFT) earlier Friday, rose 1/4 to 45 7/8 on moderate volume.
-0-  8 16 AM EDT 04-27-92}

    Sheesh, when will we realize that we are in the business of selling
    computers, not firing people...
    
    q
    

    That means by the quarter after next, if not at the next quarter
    itself, that DEC's $1.5b cash reserves will be gone.  On the other
    hand, if that makes a takeover easier, perhaps pissing away our
    cash is the best thing to happen...

re.99
    
>    Sheesh, when will we realize that we are in the business of selling
>    computers, not firing people...
    
    When management realizes that employees are an *asset* which far 
    outweigh the _expense_ of salaries. Losing people with 10-15 years
    of experience hurts us far more than saving $$ in the 'Salaries
    Expense' column on the Income Statement. Upper management (read 'KO')
    should tell the bean counters to SHUT UP.

RE:.103

I have noticed that the revenue has been increasing lately but the
cost of sales has been increasing also.  Now you could say that that
is because we are selling more PCs but, if People are the biggest
cost, how does the fact that we have reduced by xK people show up
in the cost of sales part of the equation??

As an outside observer, it looks like we have a hole in the boat and
we are throwing people overboard trying to stop us from sinking.
What needs to happen is someone needs to see where the water is 
coming in and patch the hole.

Maybe the problem isn't the number of people!  Maybe there are 
significant costs that have not been addressed.  Maybe it is time 
that the top 10 or 20% of the company make a little sacrifice like
a 10% paycut until the profits return??  We might lose some of
them and they are doing such a good job of solving the problems,
right?

Sorry for the sarcasm but I do not see any leadership in the latest
announcement of 10-15K more in layoffs along with the news of a 10%
increase in JS's pay.

What a depressing day,
Lee G.

Revenues increasing?  Not last quarter.

    from APRIL 27 edition of Electronics Engineering News:

    "According to sources, Digital spends about 22 cents of every revenue
     dollar on research and engineering. That's about 2 to 3 times what
    most companies spend. Over the past few months, there have been reports
    that KO intends to trim as much as $400 million from the company's
    research and engineering budget.
    Analysts have suggested that a $400 million cut in the engineering
    budget could translate into the layoff of approx. 4,000 engineers."

    /nasser

    From the Sunday, April 26, 1992 Dallas Morning News ....
    
    "DEC to lay off 4,000 more workers"
    
    New York Times News Service
    
    "MAYNARD, Mass. - Digital Equipment Corp. told industry analysts it
    would be taking a restructuring charge of $500M to $1B this quarter to
    cover layoffs of 4,000 more employees.
    
    "John F. Smith, senior vice president in charge of operations, spoke
    informally Friday about the earnings charge and layoffs, which he had
    said two weeks ago were likely.  Digital announced then that it had
    lost $294M for its third quarter.
    
    "Mr. Smith said he expected Digital to cut at least 10,000 to 15,000
    more employees in the 1993 fiscal year, which begins July 1.  Of the
    4,000 being cut this quarter, 3,000 are taking an early retirement
    plan.  He said the cuts would be "front loaded," meaning most would
    come early in the fiscal year.  He said the cuts would go across the
    entire company but the focus would be on areas that have grown the
    fastest during the last four years, the sales and support
    organization."

    If the wire story is correct, that's 14,000 to 19,000 total additional
    cuts/SERPs in Q4 and FY93, and an additional $.5-1.0B restructuring
    charge.  Given the previous promises from Z. that the US sales &
    support org cuts were finished for FY92, I'd expect those in Q1FY93.

Let's cut engineering budget, and not create (possibly) as leading products,
after all,ewe can be the same as the clone makers, sigh.

Oh, and let's lay off the sales force, we aren't selling enough, so we don't 
need them any more, sigh.


Does anyone detect a note od sarchasm here ?

But has anyone heard the likes of these before ?

Sigh,
	Bill

   Re:    <<< Note 1843.109 by STAR::PARKE "True Engineers Combat Obfuscation" >>>

The story I heard was that we had a lot of engineers working on
products that were not "leading".  My guess is we've got
engineers doing a lot of non-engineering work too, and that some
of it doesn't add value.  Frankly, I can't imagine any part of
this company that doesn't have some fat.  If you really believe
that there is no fat in your home territory, I'd like to hear
about it.

Dick

I'd get kind of upset at all this talk if I really cared much anymore.

For starters, we, the company, spent a ton of money last year on
"restructuring" costs, which was code speak for laying people off.  Well,
looking at the Q3 results this year, I see that while revenues are down
compared to Q3 last year, our expenses are up.

Given that the reason for dumping those people was to cut expenses, it's
kind of hard for me not to get a bit cynical at this point.  We cut people,
but the expenses go up.  Extrapolating this trend a bit, one would expect
that letting more people go would increase our expenses even more.

I think we're attacking the wrong problem here.  We're trying to cure the
disease by obsessing over the symptoms.  Kind of like cold medicine:  It
doesn't cure your cold, but it makes the symptoms go away (or lessen) for a
while.  This in turn encourages you to go out and do things instead of
resting, thus further compromising your bodily defenses.

Ok, I'll go along with the notion that there's fat everywhere.  There's
certainly no shortage of people to point at the fat.  Then again, there's
never any shortage of people to point at a problem that they don't consider
themselves a part of.

The fact is that most people really do want to do a good job.  If they're
"fat" or "deadwood", it's almost always because their employer failed to
put them in a position that best exploits their talents.  This either means
promotion past the level of incompetence, or dropping a person into a dead
project.  It ain't the person's fault that they're on a dead project, and
they're only partly at fault for accepting the promotion to a job they
can't do.

If I had to be hypocritical here and point at a problem that I don't
consider myself part of, I'd have to point to the people responsible for
putting these employees into deadwood positions.

It's unbelievable to me, but true, that the company will put someone into a
job where they can't make a decent contribution, then penalize that person
for not contributing.

I guess that's life, but I refuse to buy into the "lazy worker" theories.

   Re:     <<< Note 1843.111 by FIGS::BANKS "VMSMAIL: Its as good as it gets!" >>>

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.  Fat means *jobs* we don't need,
not people!  Projects that don't help us design, make, or sell
something have been started without financial justification.
Managers have assigned people to work on these projects and put
those people at risk of finding themselves in a dead-end (fat)
job.

As far as people taking charge of their own careers, there is
one area that I believe is a must for everyone.  We must spend
enough energy to understand how the job we're in contributes to
cost and value.  We must evaluate the risk we are taking by
failing to move on when we generate more cost than value.

Nobody can expect to create a perfect career for him[her]self,
but we all must be responsible enough to figure out that
somebody has left us in a no-win situation, and then act to get
out of it.

fwiw,

   Dick

Re .113

> Nobody can expect to create a perfect career for him[her]self,
> but we all must be responsible enough to figure out that
> somebody has left us in a no-win situation, and then act to get
> out of it.

Be careful if you take this approach.  You'll want to read between the lines
of each review to be sure there isn't some implication about "doesn't stick
to a project."  You can pull this once or twice, provided you shift
stovepipes, but eventually you'll have a "reputation."

Another approach is to be extremely vocal about your career aspirations and
whether you feel yuou are in a winnable game.  Don't wait for the loss.

A strong here here to the noter suggesting pay cuts for the top.  What have they
done during this time of sacrificing?  And how much do you suppose they will 
pay Mr. La Cava and Mr. Strecket to take a hike?  I bet we could "feed" a bunch
of us grunts for a long time with that money.  If they screwed up, fire them.
That doesn't mean pay them to leave. 

Come on, upper management.  Cutting us, and our morale along with it, doesn't
help the situation.  Leading by example helps!  Leadership in general will help.
Sacrificing some of your pay will help.  Just do it!

BTW, to show the arrogance of some upper management, I was at a meeting recently
where one of the lead marketeers was talking.  She (you should be figuring out
who this might be by now) was grousing about her measly $10,000 a year raise.
Now, to me, $10K would be a rather substantial raise!  Like totaling all the
raises I've had in the last three+ years!  Get with the program, folks!

Put up or shut up!

Kelly

re Note 1843.110 by SGOUTL::BELDIN_R:

> The story I heard was that we had a lot of engineers working on
> products that were not "leading".  

        DECworld can be a mind-expanding experience, especially for a
        "central engineer" (me) coming onto contact with experts from
        the field.

        I am coming to the increasing realization that many of the
        products that we in Digital engineering are struggling to
        produce are already available ON OUR SYSTEMS from CSOs.

        Now, it's often true that the CSOs' products don't conform to
        every last corporate architecture, or aren't available on
        exactly the set of strategic platforms we would have chosen. 
        But they work, in many cases work very well.  In many cases
        they are mature second or third version products whose
        functionality and smoothness we couldn't touch in a V1
        product (which of course isn't shipping yet, and probably
        won't be for a while).

        When we do design a product, it sometimes has a far more
        general architecture and builds upon our other architectures. 
        The down-side of this is that makes the product take even
        longer to come to market, and often exacts a performance
        penalty. Even the best product in the world often can't
        overcome an accepted and long-established product.

        There is a lot of work we wouldn't have to do if we could
        draw upon the work of our CSOs.  The more effective IBUs
        already do this.

        Bob

    IMAGINE.. you work in the field.  you'd like to depart the company 
    fairly soon, but there's no time pressure.  You're a good performer and
    valued in your job, but you want to leave.  There's all these rumors 
    about a voluntary field severance package. 
    
    Would you leave now or stay a few months ?  Why or why not ?
    
    karl

    Start looking now and hold out for that cream de la cream offer.  In
    the meantime, if you are offered a severance package - go for it. 
    Otherwise, keep looking.  As we all know - what you do on your personal
    (vacation, weekend, evenings) time is your own business and DEC/digital
    doesn't even have to know you are looking.
    
    -sandy
    

Well, one thing I came away with from my three days at DECworld was that we 
have too many people in this company. There were consistently more Digital 
employees at DECworld than Digital customers (in my opinion). And I have a 
hard time figuring out what all of those Digital employees do to add value to 
what we're selling. Unfortunately, I think more layoffs are needed, with 
particular emphasis on those levels between the Executive Committee and 2nd 
line management.

Regards,

Jim

    re:.121
    Bodies at DECworld has nothing to do with bodies in general.
    
    DECworld's set up so that visitors (customer-types) don't get to go
    anywhere unescorted.  It seemed to me (by the body count) that each one
    was surrounded by a phalanx of account-team types, keeping them from
    seeing each other, the press, or anything they weren't scheduled to
    see.
    
    This is characteristic of our account-team approach, a very
    labor-intensive way to sell which focuses on a few big customers to the
    exclusion of potential (but not current) customers. 
    
    But nobody works DECworld for lack of anything better to do.  It's all
    deisgned that way.  Of course, we could be a bit looser with our
    customers.  But that's a different call.

    Some of the customers were telling their Digital sales people to buzz
    off and let them look on their own, when they needed them they would
    call. The customers did not want the sales people herding them around.
    
    Dave
    

    Gosh, we were just assured our jobs were secure for the rest of the
    fiscal year..  a whole 9 weeks as of the announcement.
    
    karl

    re .126
    
    That pseudo-promise applied to the field, I believe.  Sales and
    support.  Not necessarily the entire U.S. or corporate.  At least as I
    understood it....

There was such a drop in moral in the field the last time around that the message
to local management is "Tell everyone there are no plans for layoffs in Sales
and Sales Support".  (Notice the phrase "plans for")

This is supposed to let Sales and Sales Support focus on Q4 business without the
distraction of a forthcoming TFSO.   What a plan!

Of course, they didn't take into account that in the absence of reliable 
information, rumors will always flourish, and mopral is as low as ever.  When
the pilots appear dead at the helm, the passengers tend to get a little worried,
regrdless of what the stewardess' tell you.

My $.02

Bob

    From the 6/8/92 issue of COMPUTERWORLD
    
    "It is unlikely that DEC will soon offer other retirement packages, but
    will rely primarily on "layoffs" to reduce payroll, according to
    company spokesman Dallas Kirk.  DEC officials are in the process of
    formulating their downsizing plans, which will be made public at the
    end of the first fiscal quarter in September and when they are
    implemented by business groups thereafter, Kirk said"
    
    Sounds like a Q1 planning & Q2 implementation schedule.
    
    Mark
    

    More likely Q1 July....that's the rumors I'm hearing....
    Also, Involuntary Package....):
    
    

    
    Engineering will be effected.

	What I heard was that all (or most) organizations will be asked to
	cut between 10-30%. The people who took SERP will count in that. I
	figure that between SERP and a recent departure to an other group
	my group has already given 13+%. Maybe I'm safe. :-)

	But actually I don't believe anything until I see it in LIVEWIRE.

			Alfred

    Well, this plant went from 800 to just over 300 so...

    This sounds like a "Monster Layoff", maybe we should open a new note???
    
    
    Titled   'LATEST AND GREATEST DIGITAL LAYOFF'
    
    I am very concerned...........
    
    
    alan

           USDSL (US Digital Services Logistics) lost approx. 15-20% with
           both January layoff & SERP.  Looks like we're all set, huh?
           
           Steve

           BTW- I wouldn't count on it, though :-)

    re .136
    
    In a recent copy of the overheads of the US/Logistic's customer to
    customer presentation, it said "No services logistics people reductions
    currently sited."  We were given this on June 9.

    Seems like every year, for the past couple of years, layoffs have been 
    targeted for the Q2 timeframe, which means that once again around 
    Thanksgiving & Christmas, instead of enjoying the holidays, we have 
    more TFSO-ing to look forward to.  Of course, there IS no good time 
    for layoffs..... :^(
    
    LJD

RE: .138

The very best time for a layoff is NOW! Not later, not next year.  If
you have a problem and you think that layoffs will solve it (even 
though that is the wrong idea), postponing the layoff will only make 
everyone worry.  Even the good performers will be looking over their 
shoulders to see if they are going to be tapped.  Productivity will 
drop, products will be delayed, good people will leave for greener 
pastures.  Sound like a company that you know?  :-|

Lee G.

    From the standpoint of the company's interests, the answer should be
    "NOW and not again until next June".  Planning for the year is GREATLY
    simplified if you don't have to have multiple contingency plans to
    compensate for staff reductions at random times during the year.
    
    \dave

    Wrong, the time for the layoffs has passed. The economy is starting to
    show signs of recovery, it is time for the big corporations (such as
    Digital) to take a lead in creating business, to get the economy back
    on its feet. The MBA's making decisions in this corporation based on
    the "Bottom Line" have become too focused on one aspect of the finances
    of this corporation. Yes, headcount is related to profitability, but so
    are dozens of other factors, which are not being addressed with any
    where near the vigor that the TFSO etc is.
    
    We have Cut N thousand people out of the corporation, in many cases
    talented individuals that had skills that greated improved the
    profitability, people who, IMAO, shared the visions of our founder. The
    result is not sudden and instantaneous profitability. Anyone that
    thinks that this is a remote possibility, needs to get back in touch
    with reality. Workforce reduction is a means to an end, it is one of
    many means, it is not the end, and it is most certainly not the best
    means.
    
    It's sort of like going to the Doctor with an ingrown toenail, that
    makes it hard to walk. A good Doctor, will resect the nail, treat it
    with anti-biotics, and constantly monitor you condition as it recovers.
    
    The DEC Doctor, lights his incense, shakes his beads over your foot,
    chants cryptic acronyms at you, curses you you for not heeding his
    previous instructions to stand barefoot in Cow Manure, then sneaks up
    behind you, cuts off your healthy leg at the thigh, and threatens to
    cut of the "bad" leg, if you don't react to treatment.
    
    q

    DEC has layed off several thousand employees wether it be through SERP
    TFSO or just plain tappings. The reason is most probably driven by the
    bottom line and the perception of the Shareholders toward the ability
    of the company to thicken it. DEC has taken charges for restructuring
    several times in the past 2 years. Rumor has it that DEC is going to
    take another substantial charge this QTR. If it is indeed the direction
    of DEC to please the Shareholders, then Layoffs will start before the
    end of this year. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for DEC to continue
    to take hits. The Shareholders are getting icthy, they want to see
    something that is going to fatten there wallets. And they want it now.
    So, IMHO, hold on, the deepest cuts will be taking place between now
    and July 1st. I agree that head count reductions are not the best
    alternative to raising revenues. But, in this day an age, it seems that
    people are the most expendable item. Caring and loyalties were thrown
    out the window with the babies bath water.
    
    Eric...
    

    re last two - *amen*