Conference 7.286::digital

    It doesn't help you much now but the notice when trying to access
    this is as follows.
    
    	    The PRICE infobase is currently being transferred to a
            new system. It is expected that the new system will
            be live in Q2.
    
            If you have any questions regarding this please contact
            the RMS hotline at DTN: 297-6100 or (508) 467-6100.
    
     Jim C.
    
    

    I'd like to know who made the decision to cut off VTX PRICE
    until Q2.  That is a service which I depend on, as part of
    my function as a System Manager is to order capital for my 
    group.  I'm sure there must be plenty of other people in
    the same boat as I am.
    
    I am VERY unhappy...
    
    :^(
    
    Catherine Hettich
    ULTRIX MLS+ System Management Support

This sucks.  I don't care that is being transferred!  Leave the old one up
until the new one comes online.  You do not take down a much-used resource
of the corporation for two months without offering a replacement.

    I totally agree. Flood the phone number provided with complaints.
    Find out who is responsible and dump there as well. I read some-
    where recently that roadblocks to the success of digital would not
    be tolerated. If this is indeed a roadblock let's see how serious
    the company is in dealing with it.
    
    Jim C.

I just tried calling the number given in the screen and I was given
a more direct contact: Dave Morgan, DTN 297-5297 -or- DTN 285-2936.

Lee

    May I suggest you also work through the system to make it work?  That
    is, be sure to contact your higher ups and give them opportunity to
    respond.  Just a friendly suggestion.
    
    Steve

re: .2, Mark

>You do not take down a much-used resource
>of the corporation for two months without offering a replacement.

Kinda reminds me of when they "replaced" the original ELF with VTX ELF . . . 

-Jack

    Excellent way to help bring in that Q1 business!!!!!  Really tho, this
    will be a MASSIVE blow to sales productivity.....  does anyone in the 
    company analyze the possible negative effect of stuff like this BEFORE
    pulling the plug?????

    re: .7  Kinda reminds me of what happened to Delta ...
    
    Steve

It's unbelievable that we've nuked this necessary service unavailable,
especially since there's no alternative!  Maybe too much bandwith was being used
by all those price requests going over the network.

Paul

         VTX Price will be restored, hopefully, by Monday. The application
    is transferring from Pricing Operations to another group in Q2, due to
    cost constraints. VTX PRICE was inadvertanly brought down on Thursday.
    On behalf of Pricing Operations please accept our apologies for 
    impeding generation of revenue.
    
    Regards,
    
           Steve Marsh
           Pricing Operations

>           <<< Note 2639.10 by FUNYET::ANDERSON "OpenVMS Forever!" >>>
>                   -< Even more important than weather maps >-
>
>It's unbelievable that we've nuked this necessary service unavailable,
>especially since there's no alternative!  Maybe too much bandwith was being used
>by all those price requests going over the network.

	I use VTX PRICE, too - because it is quick and handy.

	But I also have an AQS account which provides a quick look-up
	capability.  I have no idea what the qualifications are for an
	AQS account but you might look into it.  It's slower, but provides
	more info and options.

		--chas

    In its place, you'll all be getting hand-held micro-film readers and a
    weekly update of micro-film with prices..
    
    
    
    		oooooo			oooooo
    		o    o			o    o
    		o    o			o    o
    		oooooo		o	oooooo
    			       o
    			      o
    			     o
    		   oo	    ooooo	oo
    		    o o		      o o
    		     o  ooooooooooooo  o
    		      ooooooooooooooooo
    
    

    VTX PRICE should be back up and running NOW.
    
    Our group was notified yesterday by the owners of the Price List to
    shut down the server.
    
    Thanks to you all for questioning the wisdom of that decision.  We were
    just notified to restart the VTX application and have done so.
    
    The PRICE is right!
    
    VTX Services Group

    re: .6
    
   > I'd like to know who made the decision to cut off VTX PRICE
    
    The same people who the decision about the virtual office, the new
    vaction policy, no Ultrix on MIPS, ect.
    
    ray j.

Re: .15

Can't be.  Jack Smith is gone.

		Steve

    
    It's wonderfull to see the bad decisions reversed quickly!  I see very
    positive changes everywhere.  I'm in the mill and have seen Ed Lucente
    in action, with his skills alone we should be on the rise within a
    year!!  
    
    The engineering orginization I'm in seems to be making very positive
    changes.  
    
    Jon
    
    Prediction: DEC stock over $60/share within a year, $100/share in three.

    
    There may be hope, after all!

    
    Well I'm EXTREMELY pleased to hear VTX PRICE is being restored. I and
    many others found it a very needed resource to do our jobs.
    
    When I discovered it down this morning I called the number and
    registered my displeasure (politely I may add). I was told about 25
    people had called late yesterday afternoon after it was shut down and
    another 25 had called by the time I'd called half way through the
    morning. I was told it was shut down due to funding reasons. I
    expressed my amazement at how such a key tool could possibly be removed
    and I was immediately sent a form to apply for an AQS account.
    
    The thing I find interesting is the contradictions in the two replies
    below and what was being said on the phone. The two replies below
    effectovely contradict each other.
    
    In paricular:
    
>CASPRO::MARSH                                        10 lines  27-AUG-1993 15:19
>                             -< Back Up on Monday >-
>...
>   VTX PRICE was inadvertanly brought down on Thursday.
>    On behalf of Pricing Operations please accept our apologies for 
>    impeding generation of revenue.
    
    Excuse me. But the notice CLEARLY saids the service had deliberatelty
    been brought down until Q2. I was also told on the phone that this was
    the case. I don't believe it was "inadvertanly" [sic] brought down.
    Somebody made a conscious decision to take away this service until Q2.
    I'd love to understand the reasoning behind that decision. I'm so glad
    that such an ascenine decision has now been reversed. I presume the
    person that made that decision is now trying to decide whether the VTX
    SPD service needs to be removed and maybe eben VTX SALES_UPDATE_US.
    
    Somebody must be WAY out of touch.
    
    Dave

               <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2639.11           VTX PRICE, gone but not forgotten!               11 of 18
CASPRO::MARSH                                        10 lines  27-AUG-1993 15:19
                             -< Back Up on Monday >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         VTX Price will be restored, hopefully, by Monday. The application
    is transferring from Pricing Operations to another group in Q2, due to
    cost constraints. VTX PRICE was inadvertanly brought down on Thursday.
    On behalf of Pricing Operations please accept our apologies for 
    impeding generation of revenue.
    
    Regards,
    
           Steve Marsh
           Pricing Operations
    
           <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2639.14           VTX PRICE, gone but not forgotten!               14 of 18
KITYKT::GITA "recycled stardust"                     11 lines  27-AUG-1993 15:51
                              -< PRICE is Right >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VTX PRICE should be back up and running NOW.
    
    Our group was notified yesterday by the owners of the Price List to
    shut down the server.
    
    Thanks to you all for questioning the wisdom of that decision.  We were
    just notified to restart the VTX application and have done so.
    
    The PRICE is right!
    
    VTX Services Group

    Dave(et al),
    
         I'll gladly respond offline. CASPRO::MARSH. DTN: 297-5290.
    
    Steve

    RE: .19  by SMAUG::GARROD 
    
    >I don't believe it was "inadvertanly" [sic] brought down.  Somebody
    >made a conscious decision to take away this service until Q2. I'd love
    >to understand the reasoning behind that decision. I'm so glad that such
    >an ascenine decision has now been reversed. 
        ^^^^^^^^
          [sic]  ;-)
    

Everyone is entitled to make a mistake.  The real professionals are the ones who
recognize it as such, and correct it.

Looking to hang someone for making a mistake is a lose-lose situation.

Thanks to those responsible for restoring this valuable service, and learning 
from their mistake.

Bob Deep

    
    
      As the BASEnoter I am real glas to see that this most valuable
    resource was re-instated.  I realize we are all trying to do what is
    right for the Company.  But, we have to ALL realize there are tools
    that some of us require to perform our daily duties and these
    resources cannot be taken away without some of other plan or process
    being inplace.
    
    Thanks for the efforts in getting this back on line.
    
    Regards,
    Bob

    
    Yes, thanks for the turnaround on this decision.  I went into panic
    mode last week when I discovered VTX PRICE was missing.  Thanks to
    those who took the initiative to restore a very valuable tool.
    
    
    

    Just to clarify a point for those who may have thought sales was
    unable to book orders because of this......sales people do all 
    quotes off the AQS system; so we weren't losing revenue along
    those lines.
    
    I can appreciate the chagrin of those of you who do use VTX PRICE.
    I was a little surprised to see that one individual was offered an
    application for an AQS account.....at one time 1-800-DEC-SALE prac-
    tically had to pull teeth to get our folks on the phones AQS accounts!!
    We do not generate quotes at 1-800-DEC-SALE, but we have access to
    the AQS Reference File Inquiry Section - this allows us to see active
    part #s and pricing.
    
    If the two systems truely over-lap and we could save revenue by
    granting *limited* AQS access to those individuals who do not have to
    *generate* a quote, then perhaps the idea has some merit.  But I 
    would hope some sort of advance notification would be sent out before
    any future decisions are made.
    
    Karen
    

I've used PRICE for years. Sales support is what I do. The end result of a lot
of my work with PRICE is a sales rep using AQS to send a final quote to a
customer - which hopefully will result in a booking. Without PRICE it would take
longer for me to get the work done so the rep could get a quote out. 

Longer Sales Cycle ... Cost of Sales ... anybody interested in these topics?

Not every customer activity uses the PRICE -> AQS -> customer route. Just the
more complex ones. Or the ones needing a fast phone quote when the rep's out of
the office and I get the call.

Nice that the decision got reversed. Too bad nobody tried to figure out ahead of
time what the adverse effects would be.

Thanks, Noters - you've done it again!
Norm

    The point I was trying to make in .25 was *IF* AQS and VTX PRICE are
    truely redundant and someone had to make a decision to eliminate one
    of them, perhaps it would be appropriate for VTX PRICE to go.  I'm
    not advocating doing so without notifying the populace; anyone who
    needs access to pricing info to do his/her job should have it.
    
    I was thinking that in light of the dramatic cuts in some organi-
    zations, that if it were one group of people responsible for keeping
    BOTH databases updated, it's probable that this could become an
    impossible task for _mumble_ group at some point in time.
    
    Karen
    

    I've seen scenarios such as this one too many times recently.
     
    It appears that someone was asked to justify funding of project 'X'.
    Since no data was available, drastic action is taken to see if 'X'
    would be missed.  As demonstrated in this example, it results in a
    cry of support for 'X', and thus justification for the people 
    funding/producing/supporting 'X'.
    
    In other cases, funding for product development was cut not because
    of the lack of demand for the enhancement, but precisely because the
    corporation was legally bound to deliver it.  This causes a flood of
    protest, which usually results in some self satisfied, justified,
    smug attitude coming from a person with a job code that includes a
    closed door office
    
    Oh yeah, the project gets increased funding too.

Many others occasionally need to check price/description on various items.
It would be a real bummer to have to have an AQS account for that... or
to be calling people all of the time to ask them to look somthing up via
their AQS account.

Lee

Re:          <<< Note 2639.30 by ROBOAT::HEBERT "Captain Bligh" >>>

>                                   -< huh? >-
>
>I used VTX PRICE about six times this morning, and just one minute ago.
>Maybe it's not going away?

If you'd read the earlier replies in this note you'd understand...

-  David

    re: .29
    
    Lee, 
    
    Maybe we ALL should have AQS access!  Make everyone a potential
    salesman.  It reminds me of the way that SEARS got rid of their
    "customer services" reps.  They made every sales rep. responsible for
    handling customer complaints, credit applications, etc.
    
    Mark

When we all already have access to VTX why increase the number
of systems people have to use/passwords they have to write down.

    why have accounts on different system?  This is the 90's, not the 70's. 
    We should have distributed applications, and AQS seems like a prime
    example.
    
    Mark

I'm a Field person and I use AQS and VTX PRICE extensively. Although they 
access the same information (VTX PRICE being a subset of what you can get from 
AQS), AQS is a much more complex (and SLOOOOWWWWW) application. It is not 
really geared toward the quick reference access to part # pricing information. 
VTX PRICE is usually quick to respond. It does, however, provide only the most
basic information about a particular part (for example, lead times aren't 
shown on VTX PRICE).

The decision to remove VTX PRICE is just another symptom of a very serious 
problem in this company: Lame Management! Personally, I tend to make decisions 
quickly and from the gut. However, there have been way too many major 
decisions made that affect a great many people in recent years that indicate a 
basic failing of our management. It is apparent that the most fundamental 
analysis of the ramifications of management decisions have not been done in 
many cases. Sure, its great that poor decisions are identified and reversed, 
but they should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

It really fosters a complete lack of confidence in our management if things
like this keep happening.

As always, the above is IMHO,

Jim Mickol
Senior Consultant
Xerox Acct team
Rochester,NY

    Hi Jim!  I'm sure that we're not seeing the whole picture, just the
    symptoms.  I wonder, though, if keeping the VTX service results in less
    attention to AQS problems?  I can just imagine the monthly reports that
    could come out from the responsible org., "The operations team
    performed magnificently on the emergency request to restore VTX
    service,...,overtime,...  As a result, our systems analyst did not have
    time to do the analysis of AQS locking mechanisms..."
    
    Mark

    My group is responsible for keeping the VTX Price List up and running.
    It doesn't require any time or effort from the group responsible for
    running the AQS system.  
    
    Stopping and Restarting the VTX application takes very little time.
    Trouble shooting the application takes a lot more time, and our group
    handles that.
    
    Gita Devi
    Consultant - IM&T Videotex Services

    Re .-1
    
    So exactly why was VTX PRICE taken down in the first place? I still
    haven't seen a reasoned explanation. There must have been some valid
    reason.
    
    Dave

    Since this seems to be the channel of communication for VTX Price
    users, I wanted to explain the current situation and the future of
    VTX Price.
    
    We truly have no money for the funding of this application any longer.
    Someone has graciously offered to take over the application down in
    Atlanta without cost from Maynard, MA.  The problem is the interim.
    The application needs to be SDQA compliant, and VTX Price isn't.
    This will take a few weeks of programming, then training etc. 
    Unfortunately, we do not have the money to keep VTX up and running
    parallel to this transfer.
    
    I am giving some advance notice that VTX will be shut down in 
    approximately two weeks, and for approximately two to three weeks
    during its transition to Atlanta.  Obviously this communication will
    be sent out to a wider distribution lists.  You need to investigate
    alternate methods of accessing pricing during this interim.  AQS,
    DSPS Inquiry, etc.
    
    This is not an experiment to cause anyone pain and we understand the
    impact.  We welcome anyone who would like to volunteer funding.
    

    .41
    
    Is the shutdown of just VTX PRICE or is it all of VTX?
    
    Thanks,
    Al
    

    Sorry, Just VTX Price.
    
    

    Re .41
    
    So do you believe that shutting it down again will go down any better
    next time? Many many many different people in this company need to be
    able to quickly look up US List Prices. I suggest that instead of
    saying it'll be shut down you find a way to not shut it down ie put
    togeher all the information you now have on the impact of shutting it
    down and send it to someone that can do something about it.
    
    Dave

    I dont understand why it needs to be shutdown for a few weeks to
    move it to Atlanta. What are we doing, shipping the hardware down by
    pony express? Why cant you leave it running where it is until its ready
    somewhere else?
    
    And the argument that it must be modified because it doesnt conform to
    some standard is crazy- who set the standard, God? Its a very usefull
    business function, so waive the damn standard and keep it running.
    
    DEC is choking itself on its own danm internal process.
    

    Here is a positive suggestion.
    
    I belive that a VTX server records the number of accesses to specific
    services or pages of information.
    
    Over a few days could you gather this information and post it here and
    also send it to whoever thinks it is a jolly good idea to take this
    service offline, even temporarily.
    
    Dave

    re .45
    
    yes, my son.
    
    	;-)
    

    We have done all and everything that you have suggested.  We know
    how many users access it, we know how much of a negative impact it has.
    Reality is that there is "NO" funding.  Reality also is that the
    software needs to be SDQA conforming.  It was originally created as
    a quick and dirty program.
    
    We are asking that you put the word out to its users that we are
    looking for someone to take over the funding.  Its a Sales and
    Marketing Application (neither of which we are part of).  If someone
    would be willing to fund two quarters while the transition to Atlanta
    takes place, we can keep VTX up and running.  The cost is $31K a
    quarter. 
    
    Thanks.
    

    >Reality also is that the software needs to be SDQA conforming. 
    
    Why?
    
    Sounds like the process is preventing real employees from doing real
    work -- again.
    					andrew

    Basically because there is no installation kit, an installation kit
    needs to be created.  
    
    What I think is a waste of time, is that real employees are trying to
    find a solution to this, and other people are wasting time and energy
    with useless questions, when energy could be better spent trying to
    offer some realistic solutions, and work as a team.   
    
    If anyone technical would like to call Atlanta and offer them a
    solution for installing a software application without an installation
    kit, we would appreciate it.
    
    
    

    re .50
    
    The fact that employees are asking questions does not make those
    questions useless.  This is not an issue for individual employees to
    solve.  This is an institutional issue that should be dealt with on a
    high managerial level.  It makes perfect sense for the users, ie.
    employees, to raise flags but it is bizzare to suggest that one of the
    readers of this note should find the funding or provide the programming
    resources necessary for it to be implemented.
    
    The proper thing is for the issue to be elevated to higher management,
    YOUR MANAGEMENT, and for THEM to get off the dime and fix the
    situation.
    
    For crying out loud, what the hell ever happened to leadership?  
    
    To read you say that YOU/YOUR GROUP is not sales or sales support so
    its up to someone else is so *&%*&^^% that I can hardly believe it.
    
    Every team must have a leader or it isn't really a team, just a bunch
    of folks doing whatever they wish.  The answer to the problem doesn't
    reside with the users it resides with the CURRENT OWNERS and the
    MANAGEMENT OF THE USERS.
    
    I've seen Little League teams better managed.
    
    Marv
    

    It has been elevated and is being worked.  I think the idea of
    networking makes perfect sense.  We are one company, and if more people
    thought this way, we'd all be much better off. The philosophy of
    Digital is finding creatives ways of solving problems, when you try
    to stiffle someones creativity as you have suggested, Digital loses.
    
    This notesfile is widely used and as such is a perfect avenue for
    communication and assistance.  It worked when people were asked
    via this notesfile to voice their concerns about the initial shutdown,
    why can't it work for the positive.  I respect your opinion however
    I disagree that a little league team is better managed, I think its a
    truly productive organzation that doesn't just focus on one solution, 
    but searches out alternatives.
    
    

    I guess I'm thick or something. The way is see it is:
    
    1, VTX PRICE is working FINE at the moment. If it's not broken don't
       fix it.
    
    2, We here is has to be compliant with some standard. Why? It works
       fine at the moment. If is not broken don't fix it.
    
    3, The software is a littele raggedly at the edges and can't be easily
       moved to Atlanta because of no installation procedure or something.
       Surely this is easily overcome by some creative hackery. If it is
       broken then be creative to work around it.
    
    Now somebody couldn't be fighting a petty internal war over funding
    could they? Nahhh that could never happen in Digital could it... In
    Digital we always "do the right thing" and we understand what's needed
    to keep a business running. Petty discussions over internal funny money
    never adversely factor on needing to be customer focused. In Digital we
    know that the customer always comes first and internal issues always
    come last. We know that because Bob Palmer said it, so it must be true
    and we also know that all managers in Digital take that to heart.
    
    Dave

	Submit the idea to DELTA as to how VTX PRICE is an efficient, 
	time saving, customer focused tool that helps revenue generation
	by being able to quickly respond to customer's inquiries and
	price/model  comparisons.  

	Tell them how quickly we can do a price lookup online while the
	customer is on the phone without having to log into slow systems
	or try to find the price in an outdated price book that changes
	frequently.

	Multiply the 1) time savings and 2) customer satisfaction/response
	value,  times the number of sales reps and sales support folks
	and see if it would pay for itself.

	A level headed business person wouldn't have to reconsider on this
	one.  It is so apparent that they would put it as high priority
	and wouldn't waste anymore time (or bandwith) on the issue.

	Perhaps we have become so focused on cost reduction we have lost
	sight of our mission and a little common sense.

	OK.....  I know DELTA isn't the current option...  but some one
	better start listening somewhere.

	Not everything can be cost reduction.  At some point, someone
	best be concerned with the tools and internal systems.  I've heard
	it said over and over by different folks.  Engaging the customer,
	proposing solutions and services is the fun part.  But try to bring
	the business back into the office and sell it internally, try to 
	price it, try to figure out who is going to "take ownership", try
	to suggest a different way to improve the process, etc...  and you
	run into the protected, old systems and processes of the past.
	And we're dying and losing market share and money in the meantime.

	Any kind of business has to continue improving and investing in
	its processes and change with times and the competition.  The VTX
	PRICE tool for field is just one small thing in the overall tool
	bag we have.  I'm afraid that so many other things will go the
	same way as this...  lack of foresight and common sense as to what
	is needed or is useful.  Can't a 30 minute cost justification
	be done by someone and be presented to someone who cares?  If not,
	our days are numbered.  

	Sorry to ramble...  just my .02 worth

		--chas

    1. The main issue IS there is no budget for it in our group.  Since
    we have no money for it Atlanta agreed to take it over for nothing.
    
    2. HOWEVER, because Atlanta needs an installation kit, this takes time.
    Since we have no money to give to the operations group who currently 
    supports it in Maynard, to cover the time during the programming of the 
    new kit, it gets shut off.  You don't pay your electric bill, they shut your
    lights off.
    
    3. The compliant of some standard is SDQA, the only reason we need to
       conform to SDQA is because we are moving the software to Atlanta
       who has agreed to charge nothing to support it...  We are NOT
       programming changes to fix something, merely because we need to
       get the software loaded in ATLANTA, because we can't afford to
       pay for it.  We are not arguing with anyone over who is going to
       pay for it, we only know we can't afford to pay for it.
    
    I don't think I can explain it any better than that.  We are a business
    just like any other business, and when we can't afford to pay for
    things we can't, you can't magically pull money that isn't there.
    Again, we are not taking it down to fix, we are taking it down because
    we can't afford to pay to keep it up and running.

	Fine.  But the field suffers in the meantime.  While one group
	argues for money, others are goaled not to take on additional
	expenses, in fact I suspect you are goaled to reduce expenses
	yourself.

	Somewhere... oh I hope somewhere... someone cares enough in the
	"company" to support what is needed.  

	This will have to go the same way as other things.  It will
	get shut off, hundreds will scream, someone up high will give
	some attention to it because of all the flack and noise, a 
	directive will be given, and it might be back.

	And the field suffers.  Customer satisfaction is reduced.  The
	competition is cheering.  It's like a broken record.

	I've said enough.  I won't bother to waste anymore bandwidth on
	this one.

		--chas

>    If anyone technical would like to call Atlanta and offer them a
>    solution for installing a software application without an installation
>    kit, we would appreciate it.
    
>    2. HOWEVER, because Atlanta needs an installation kit, this takes time.
>    Since we have no money to give to the operations group who currently 
>    supports it in Maynard, to cover the time during the programming of the 
>    new kit, it gets shut off.  You don't pay your electric bill, they shut your
>    lights off.

Do they really need an *installation kit* if they're technically literate the 
following workaround should be do-able shouldn't it????? 

Howabout a complete backup of the system you currently have(base system and 
all other relevant bits), restore it to 
the other machine, customise as necessary (change node names etc) and then 
boot the copycat machine onto the network and take the info of the original
only when the second has been proved to work????? 


That way you have a consistant system available, you, for the time being at least
avoid the cost of development of the install kit and you can then work on 
delaying the impact of meeting the standard - you can gradually customise
it up to scratch without impacting those who the tool is there to be used by ...



If I understand this all rightly the time it'll be missing is the time 
you can no longer support it to the time they have it on their system, 
thus getting it onto their system is the bit that's really causing it 
to go missing, thus backup/restoration might well not be too time consuming 
at all........ (especially since we all regularly back up all our machines 
all the time anyway.)

    
    Re:
    
>    I don't think I can explain it any better than that.  We are a business
>    just like any other business, and when we can't afford to pay for
>    things we can't, you can't magically pull money that isn't there.
>    Again, we are not taking it down to fix, we are taking it down because
>    we can't afford to pay to keep it up and running.
    
    This is PRECISELY what I'm railing about. You are NOT a businessand nor
    is the operations group you refer to.
    You and they just like ENGINEERING or MANUFACTURING or the JANITORIAL STAFF
    ie you/they are a a COST. The only entities running businesses in Digital
    are the CBUs, they are the ONLY entitities with P&L responsibility. Ie the
    ONLY entities that are concerned with REVENUE and PROFIT. Every other one of
    us is a pure EXPENSE CENTER (ie cost center). Our goal is deliver
    useful services the minimum cost possible. Now I hope you've managed
    to recognize that VTX PRICE is a needed and valuable service. So you or
    the operations group should damn well roll it into your budgets.
    
    Part of the problem with this company is that there are two many cost
    centers acting as if they are revenue centers and thus making micro
    managed business decisions that hurt the whole organism.
    
    The NMS (that ridiculous system that KO started to put in place for
    FY92) where everyone was meant to be a business is history. It's about
    time all the little tinpot empires realized that.
    
    Did I ever say FLAME ON, guess not so I'll say FLAME OFF.
    
    Dave
    

So, what's the current status? How long will VTX PRICE be available? I need 
the latest facts so I can elevate this through DMD Sales Management, if 
necessary. This is truly ridiculous.

Jim

    I have received some terrific offers, one of which one someone willing
    to give up vacation time to help with the installation kit programming.
    
    Thanks to everyone who's helped.  I'll post a status early next week.
    
    Jim, VTX would be unavailble for 4 weeks, (according to programmer
    estimates).  Can't argue with its ridiculous.
    
    

re: .58

If you'll forgive a small digression into semantics:

>   .... Our goal is deliver
>   useful services the minimum cost possible. 

That sure sounds like a business to me.  

Business is not defined by P&L -- just ask any business manager
at any non-profit hospital.  Business means delivering the right set
of products and services to customers at the right price and time --
or, in other words, satisfying customers.

While I suppose it's possible there's some behind the scenes
politics at the local level, I seriously doubt that the issue
is one of a cost center acting like a revenue center.  I think it's
far more likely that we don't have any good way to really know
the value of VTX PRICE.  Items of lesser but clearer value
get supported while items of greater but vaguer value don't.

Or, in other words, much of the funding system is broken, and it isn't
really fair to blame individual cost or revenue centers for acting
in response to a broken funding system.

   Gary

Although some of my fellow Noters have been *very* engrossed in the issue of VTX
PRICE, I think we need to encourage folks like FDCV06::BAKSTRAN who are the root
of the issue and who take the time to Note with us and who manage to stay civil
in spite of some of the heat being generated. So much of what goes on in this
conference never seems to get a response from the "targets" ...

I do NOT agree with the elimination of the VTX PRICE service as I indicated in a
previous note - and I do NOT understand the fine points of what can or can not
be merged into a budget - and like many in the Field have had my personal costs
increased by some internal group "saving money" without understanding the wider
fiscal effects - but I DO understand when directly concerned people are trying
to explain, and take the time to explain, even if I do not like or agree with
the explanation.

So *THANK YOU* FDCV06::BAKSTRAN for communicating!

Norm

    I also think it's time to cut FDCV06::BAKSTRAN some slack.  I think
    I pointed it out quite a few entries back that although gaining
    access to AQS is not a simple as typing VTX PRICE at a DCL prompt,
    anyone who *must* quote pricing to customers has access to AQS to
    do so.  VTX PRICE being unavailable should not cost customer sales!!
    
    I work in sales support; some of my co-workers have not availed
    themselves of the AQS accounts open to them.  We do not need quote
    privileges, just part #/price lookup.  VTX PRICE suits some of my
    co-workers just fine......UNTIL we develop a local problem that
    prevents connecting to VTX or there is a problem at the VTX host
    end.  Those of us using the AQS Reference Price Library have no
    problems when VTX is unavailable.
    
    I'm not trying to minimize the inconvenience some of you will feel
    while VTX PRICE is unavailable; but let's not confuse the issue of
    inconvenience with INABILITY to do ones job.  When I was in field
    sales support a few years back (SPS); AQS was available to us then.
    Most of my field co-workers *refused* to set up their AQS access be-
    cause they did not want to be pressed into generating quotes in the
    absence of the account sales reps!!
    
    I've used VTX PRICE so I know what it can/cannot do.  In these times
    of belt-tightening, I don't find it so surprising that someone has
    looked at what they consider a duplication of effort and decided to
    cut the funding.  I AM sorry Bakstran's group is being adversely
    impacted.
    
    Karen
    

>   <<< Note 2639.63 by 29563::REESE_K "Three Fries Short of a Happy Meal" >>>
>                      -< Give VTX PRICE people a break! >-

	I said I wouldn't reply again.  But I must.

	None of my replies were directed at Backstran, the individual.
	I would guess that this person is only a spokesperson for the
	group and would prefer that VTX PRICE didn't change.

	Whether that is the case or not, taking down the service for
	nothing other than a lack of funding shows a significant
	weakness in business logic.  And I think we are hurting ourselves
	when things happen like this.  Please do not misconstrue this 
	statement as an attack on Backstran.  It is at the "decision
	makers", whomever they are, for their inaction.

	Has ANY justification been given, save "lack of funding".  Does
	ANYONE have any idea what the benefit is to the field and others?
	Has ANYONE said "we have measured the activity and asked around
	and have concluded that the costs outweigh the benefit"?  I have
	heard no such thing.  I have read Backstran's statement about 
	we have measured the useage, etc. but there has been no mention
	of an actual cost savings/benefit analysis figures, etc.  

	I am in Sales Support in a remote office.  I have an AQS account.
	I have seen our office go from 6 reps down to 2.  I have filled
	in for reps that have voluntarily left, who have been TFSO'd and
	who were on short term (read: maternity) disability leave.  I have 
	had to respond to customers on the phone who want prices NOW 
	because they don't have a sales rep anymore.  VTX PRICE is 
	invaluable in those instances.  It saves TIME.  Something that is
	so precious these days.  I can get a price via VTX in about 15 
	seconds.  It takes over a minute just to get logged into AQS on
	a quiet system and then to go through the 3 or 4 menus picks to 
	get to the price lookup screen.  Unless you stay logged into AQS
	all the time, that 1-2 minutes counts, especially when on the phone.
	I do run quotes for customers quite frequently using AQS and will
	use the price lookup if already logged in.  But it's not fast.
	If you'll look back, you'll see a note from me suggesting the
	use of AQS while VTX PRICE was down before....

	Many don't have AQS and shouldn't need it nor be required to get
	an account for a simple price lookup.  

	My appologies to any inference to flaming at Backstran.  I haven't
	bothered to enter very many discussions in this conference.  This
	is just one of those where the frustration level raised above the
	boiling point and steam was produced.  Very honestly, I do think
	that the field could get along without VTX PRICE.  But this, like
	so many other things, is just another example where we are being 
	asked to do more with less.  We are being spread pretty thin trying
	to be everything to everyone and it just gets heavier and heavier
	each time a little thing like this happens.

	I hope this can be overturned.  It won't be the end of the world
	if it doesn't.  In fact it won't matter to me at all.  I submitted
	my resignation last monday.  I'll be out of here in another 3 weeks.

	But I still care.  I do have some real concerns for Digital when I
	hear of things like this - even it seems petty in the scheme
	of the whole company.  We have some excellent processes and 
	methodologies in use in this company.  It's too bad they don't get
	applied uniformly.  

		--chas

    I want to echo that my "outburst" was not directed at Mr. Backstran
    personally but was a backlash against the seemingly unending string of
    what apprear to be short-term fixes that lead to long-term damage to
    everyone's ability to perform useful work for the company.
    
    VTX PRICE is a valuable tool for internal customers as well as those
    working with outside customers in the field.  I recently did a study of
    my group's computing needs and trying to get up-to-date pricing and
    availability information in order to purchase the necessary equipment
    was a nightmare.  Without VTX PRICE I wouldn't have even been able to
    give my management a ballpark idea as to costs. 
    
    Good luck to everyone who is really trying to be productive and
    innovative in this constricting environment.
    
    Marv
    

    Just another one of those domino effects is that the EPP function on
    VTX links to VTX PRICE, so that we can look up the prices of products
    we're interested in purchasing.  Will the EPP folks be providing an 
    alternate source of this information when it comes down ?  Are there
    any other VTX "applications" that link to VTX PRICE as well.  Maybe
    the EPP group would be interested in providing funding ?  It might
    cut down on calls from employees to inquire about pricing.  Just a
    thought.
    
    sha

I just spoke with Shane Patterson from Russ Gullotti's office.  Shane was
responding to my note to Russ regarding the impact of losing this tool.

Shane assured me that VTX PRICE was recognized as a valuable tool, and would
not be going away.   He is working with the groups involved to make sure that
there is no extended period of downtime during the transition.

Bob

    As for me, I have only used VTX PRICE a couple of times -- most
    recently when I bought the DECpc on which I now write this.  However
    I've been impressed with the general outcry (by those who run their
    businesses with its help) at its possible loss, and I'm truly grateful
    to you, Bob, and to whomever else has had a hand in getting it saved --
    for the good of DIGITAL.
    
    Bravo!!  Attaboyz & girlz!!
    

    
    just used VTX PRICE to help a deccie held hostage onsite by an irate
    customer.
    
    since I'm in technical support I need to use this no more than once a
    year, so if I need an account and so forth, it ain't worth it to me!
    Keep VTX PRICE, nice, simple, does what I want!
    
    Simon

    I used it too, Simon.  Doesn't mean that things shouldn't be improved,
    does it?
    
    Mark

Is there a ASCII price file accessible somewhere that contains all the info 
in VTX PRICE? It sure would be nice to use VMS SEARCH, instead of the limited
and cumbersome search capability in VTX PRICE.

    
    Re:
    
>SYORPD::DEEP "Bob Deep - SYO, DTN 256-5708"           8 lines  22-SEP-1993 12:03
>                                   -< Saved >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I just spoke with Shane Patterson from Russ Gullotti's office.  Shane was
>responding to my note to Russ regarding the impact of losing this tool.
>
>Shane assured me that VTX PRICE was recognized as a valuable tool, and would
>not be going away.   He is working with the groups involved to make sure that
>there is no extended period of downtime during the transition.
>
>Bob
    
    Unfortunately I think you have spoken too soon. I have just found out
    that VTX PRICE now has OUT OF DATE information in it. In my mind this
    is worse than not being there at all.
    
    How did I find this out you ask? Well I'm an engineering manager
    responsible for a set of new products and products that have been
    recently repriced. These products were part of the October 12th
    announcement.
    
    The product manager and I couldn't understand why the new prices and
    some new part numbers weren't in VTX PRICE.
    
    After the product manager had had to WASTE a significant period of her
    own and others time she discovered that VTX PRICE is no longer being
    updated. Correct prices are meant to be in AQS though (we hope so, we
    have no means of checking that short of getting an AQS account).
    
    I find it really upsetting that employees now have the potential of
    making mistakes due to stale information. And guess what NOWHERE ON VTX
    PRICE DOES IT SAY THE INFORMATION IS STALE.
    
    I find the whole situation sad. Just a minor example of why this
    company is in such a damn mess.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    VTX PRICE probably always had stale data, now it's just MORE STALE.
    
    I remember someone in this string asking "What does it take to put it
    back?" and the answer was "Oh, it only takes a few minutes to run the
    startup procedure."  Now we know that updates must be done, and who
    knows what that costs?
    
    Mark

    
    We update the VTX PRICE every day.  Our update consists of creating an
    Rdb database based on prices contained in the 3 Price master files.  If
    those master files contain incorrect data, then our Rdb database will
    reflect that and will be incorrect.
    
    We check this process every day to verify that (1) it completed, (2) the
    dates are correct and (3) our Rdb database is complete.  
    
    We questioned whether or not the master files we received on Monday
    were correct because we had received full file replacements over the
    weekend.  The dates looked old.  We received assurances that the files
    were correct.  Tuesday afternoon we were notified that the files were 
    possibly missing some records.   
    
    Wednesday morning we were notified that the files were bad and it would
    take all day to restore them.
    
    We rebuilt our Rdb files Wednesday night so the prices reflected in the
    We logged in at 11:30 p.m. Wednesday night and checked prices - they
    appear correct.
    
    VTX PRICE infobase should now be correct.  
    
    This notice brought to you by the IM&T VTX Services Group

    Thank you for sharing what happened.  I don't mind being corrected in
    cases like this.
    
    Mark

    
    Re:
    
>KITYKT::GITA "recycled stardust"                     25 lines  15-OCT-1993 08:34
>                            -< For the record..... >-
>
>    We rebuilt our Rdb files Wednesday night so the prices reflected in the
>    We logged in at 11:30 p.m. Wednesday night and checked prices - they
>    appear correct.
>    
>    VTX PRICE infobase should now be correct.  
>    
>    This notice brought to you by the IM&T VTX Services Group
    
    Thanks for the update. But there are still problems. The incorrect
    prices I saw now look correct. But there are some missing part numbers.
    In particular:
    
    DEMSA-KA and DEMSB-KA
    
    I'm told that these part numbers are appearing on AQS. But they don't
    seem to be appearing on VTX PRICE. I just got a mail message from a
    sales rep complaining about this.
    
    Thanks for looking into this for me. I'll send you this as a mail
    message.
    
    Dave
    

    
    Looks like the problem isn't VTX PRICE this time. Some outdated prices
    did indeed get updated yesterday. But not the ones I refer to below.
    Appears the problem is they haven't made it to the master price file
    yet.
    
    Dave
    
           <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2718.4  Please could somebody do an AQS (NOT VTX PRICE) lookup for   4 of 4
SMAUG::GARROD "From VMS -> NT, Unix a future page fr" 8 lines  15-OCT-1993 12:16
                            -< Thanks for the info >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK. Thanks folks. Looks like VTX PRICE has indeed caught up with AQS
    now (before today there were other things wrong). The problem is
    elsewhere. The DEMS*-K* part numbers for some unknown reason haven't
    made it to the master price file yet. And the QSF08-SZ price is wrong.
    I'll go ask the product manager to bang a few heads in another department
    so the master price file can get fixed.
    
    Dave

    For all of you who have been writing to me regarding getting access to
    the source files, please contact the RMS hotline number listed on the
    PRICE main menu:  DTN 297-6100.  They should be able to help you out.
    
    Our group just handles the VTX side of things.
    
    Gita