Conference 7.286::digital

    Re: .0
    
    <Turn related notes/mild humor On>
    
    This is a relatively new Executive Management technique just starting
    to appear in high tech industry, but well grounded and practiced within
    more mature U.S. industry, ie. Automotive, Steel, etc.  The "boardroom"
    term for this technique is "BCB".
    
    The "BCB" is also known as "Bell Curve Balancing" and is used to offset
    the negative effects of an increasing number of "4's" and "5's".
    
    Any Questions Class?
    
    <Turn sarcastic humor OFF>
    

re: .0

Your concerns are shared by many. Probably few, if any, of the people who
can definitively answer your question are participating in this conference.

One might assume that the promotions accompanied a genuine change in
responsibilities for the affected individuals, and that those new
responsibilities are an integral part of a well-thought out plan to help
bring the company around in this current business/economic climate.

This is but one of a realm of conclusions one could reach. Others vary
widely in their degree of optimism.

-Jack

    Doesn't bother me at all.  I figure it's just like they do at banks.
    
    Steve

The Peter Principle in action....

q

    Maybe Digital did the Downsizing so they can now afford two more
    VPs (just what we need, more HIGH paid chiefs) In order to pay these
    two, they had to "layoff" at least 100 real worker( at my pay 1000
    people).....I can make the same great corporate decisions that they
    have made.ie; WC 4 getting payed every two weeks, then saying they
    won't go through with it, remember when they came out with no
    reimbursement  Vehicle travel???????/ I'll do that at 1/3 the pay
    they get and I don't even need a soft BIG leather chair......
    
                                                     Bob

    It just makes me glad I wasn't made a VP ...  You'd have to pay me
    quite a bit to put up with all the grief being expressed here.  
    Hmmmm ...  ;^)
    
    Steve

    $ set mode/sarcasm=high
    
    Just think, if we layoff more direct labor personnel, we can hire more
    managers to replace the ones promoted to VP.

    I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the bios on both of these
    men indicated that they were fairly new to Digital (and of course they
    are *male* VPs, since it appears that two is the limit for VPs of the
    other sex...but that's a different gripe). Personally, I find it
    intriguing that the latest high-level promotions are both newcomers, in
    view of the fact that Digital historically promotes from within (that's
    my take, at least, after nearly five years here). I also find it
    disturbing in view of current business conditions (layoffs), because
    it's the old-timers (K.O. in particular) who have seemed to fight the
    hardest to keep, train, and help employees as best they can.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Nancy-

Re:                  <<< Note 1401.8 by MR4DEC::DONCHIN >>>

>                  -< Is this a trend to bring-in outsiders? >-

In my opinion, when upper management's having problems, sometimes bringing in
new blood is a good thing to do.  New ideas, a change in style, and a more 
objective viewpoint may be what's needed to turn things around.

I've seen it work in other places, so let's hope it works here...

-  David

>In my opinion, when upper management's having problems, sometimes bringing in
>new blood is a good thing to do.  New ideas, a change in style, and a more 
>objective viewpoint may be what's needed to turn things around.
    
    Agreed. 
    But isn't it usually done as a "replacement" and not an "addition"?  
    
    The organizational pyramid is beginning to look more like a square.
    
    -pk

We've been bringing in 'new blood' manager stock for the last 5-7 years.

That's why DEC is becoming more and more like any other j-random big company.

Lee

    RE: prior comments.
    
    
    
    
    $ set/humor=on
    
    Could it be this corporate condition is due to a chemical reaction!
    This news FLASH was on VNS today - 
    
    Harwell, England 3/15/91
    
    Physicists at the Harwell nuclear research station claim to have
    discovered the heaviest element known to science -- ADMINISTRATIUM.  It
    has no protons or electrons and the atomic number is zero.  It consists
    of one nutron, eight assistant neutrons, 10 executive neutrons, 35
    vice-neutrons and 256 assistant vice-neutrons.  Completely inert, it
    can be detected chemically because it impedes every action with which
    it comes into contact...
    
    {News courtesy of the London Times}
    
    Maybe it's in the non-bottled water?
    
    $ set/humor=off
    
    $ logoff

    Re .12 I guess April 1st must have arrived two weeks early!!
    
    Gary

I don't know about the US, but over here in the UK last year's job
reductions took out a larger proportion of people at the higher levels
than at lower ones.

jb

    I feel we need a major infusion of "Big Company" managers that have
    real experience in turning things around.  The crowd we have now is
    calcified beyond hope.
    
    But I also strongly feel that the recent announcement of yet more VP's
    is extremely poor timing.  I'm surprised that Olsen lets this crap go
    on.

    Digital has reorganized into 75 or so "Business Units".  These
    Business Units include:     Systems Product Creation Units
                                Components Product Creation Units
                                Customer Service Creation Units
                                Prefessional Service Creation Units
                                Integration Business Units
                                Cross Industry Integration Business Units
    
    Each Business Unit is headed up by someone, and some people head up
    2 or more Business Units.  Approx. 10% of these Business Units are
    headed by a VP, the rest are group managers or equiv.  I expect that
    there is an equal leveling consideration if all Business Units are
    equal in some respects (their P&L responsibility, etc).  I expect that
    instead of downgrading the VPs to group managers, the group managers
    will be doing their best to get promoted to VPs, therefore becoming
    level with their peers.  In addition, the VPs the Business Unit heads
    report to also are looking to have the highest number of VPs under
    him/her to insure their position in the scheme of things.   The
    whole program will feed on itself if someone doesn't watch out 8^)
    
    Given we make more net profit % on our cash & equiv. investments than
    we do from continuing operations, why not look like a bank 8^).
    
    Mark
    

    re. 15
    
    I don't think we need new managers, especially those hired
    from Companies in worse shape that we are in. Rejects from
    other firms, ie. bigger loser, will not help us too much.
    
    Our crop of managers have helped us to grow to be what we
    are and the market problems are not all theirs. Certainly
    some changing of headsets due to the change environment
    are necessary but bringing in people from outside can be
    very risky !
    
    My .02 cents Lloyd

    In light of what Powell (equiv. Sr. V) and Schwartzkopf (equiv. VP)
    were able to do in the Iraq exercise, it looks like DEC is needing more
    Exec. level management than the US Government.
    
    Do we have an office in Kuwait (sp?) where we might set up an executive
    training center?
    
    

	... as last week's NEWSWEEK had a long article about how
Desert Sxxxxx was "managed".  As I read it, I kept getting off on
tangents about how DEC should apply some of this(and possibly is!).

    Not just VP's, but VP's reporting to VP's,...
    
    I just did a check.  This is one chain of command...
    
    	Ken Olsen 
    		- J Smith (SVP) 
    			- Grant Saviers (VP) 
    				- Charlie Christ (VP) 
    					- Charlotte Fredericks (VP)
    
    Ok, we need these VP's, but *four* levels of VP's?
    
    :-(

    re: .19
    
    We *can* run things like we ran desert s****. Let's see,we'll pretend
    that our customers are the Iraqis...let's attack!
    
    Ken

	... and they're being looted by the invading competitors!  :>) :>)

	Relying on my feeble memory, a couple of points that stood out were:

	- General S. had only three possible sources of veto on his plans:

			Bush, Cheney, Powell

	   The ivory tower boys in the Puzzle Palace were told to SUPPORT, 
	   period!  And he wasn't vetoed but a couple of times!  That's called 
	   supporting your guys in trenches!

	- Every day had a PLAN, but tomorrow's plan might change based on 
	  TODAY's results.  And they took the time and energy to change, and 
	  did it with coordination!

	- At the top of all commanders' "goal sheets" was "get the resources
	  to where they need to be!"

	Anyway, the whole article is quite interesting, I recommend it.

If they run things in Kuwait like they run things around here, then right now
somebody over there is writing an interoffice memorandum about how all the
border posts up north have to have the:

			"Welcome to Kuwait"

signs replaced with:

		"Kuwait - Unauthorized Access Prohibited"

				/AHM/RVM

    
    Whoa - I've been in the military. I'm not in any hurry to see Digital
    run like the military.
    
    Scwartzkoff and Powell are generals (~equiv to VPs) filling specif
    roles (~equiv to Smith and Zereski for eg). I'd bet that there were in
    excess of 150 generals in the gulf. (based on mid-60s USMC with ~270000
    manpower and 75 general officer slots pluys a factor for all the allied
    troops). 
    
    In addition, the gulf troops had a clear mission. Their opposition
    didn't and look what happended to them
    
    

    re: .23

    As a matter of fact, I suspect that in the Gulf War, quite a bit of
    time and effort went into things that appeared "cosmetic" but actually
    mattered.  For instance, the only place the American flag was raised
    over the US Embassy.  I am certain that was carefully planned to
    counter claims that this was a US "invasion".  It may have been less
    important than military operations, but was not pointless. Or the
    propaganda "how to surrender" leaflets.  It seemed silly when I heard
    they were dropping them, but a hell of a lot of Iraqi troops
    surrendered waving them.  It probably saved some lives.

    Just because we have big problems we cannot ignore little ones.  Little
    ones have a habit of becoming big ones. 

    The form of the system announcement message (which I presume you are
    lampooning) may or not matter if we try to prosecute a hacker; there is
    a long discussion in one of the security notes files about it.  But
    clearly some people charged with worrying about the security of our
    systems feel it is, and writing a memo saying so may be important.

    I rather have people writing memos concerning small issues before they
    become big ones, than have people ignoring the issues as "too small to
    matter" or "not their problem".

    Where I used to work before DEC they used to refer to some things as a
    "boiling frog crisis".  The idea was that (supposedly) if you put a
    frog in a pot of cold water and heated it slowly, the frog would not
    notice until the water was actually boiling.  The problem actually
    began when the frog landed in the pot, but was not noticed until if
    became a crisis (and too late for the frog!)   I suspect some of the
    big problems we have today of are the boiling frog sort.

    What led to success in the gulf was not just good high level planning,
    but attention to lots of little details at low levels.

    Steve


    Steve

    I've sort of enjoyed the comparisons to the military.  I was in the
    Navy for nearly nine years, and I can assure you, you DON'T want to
    have DEC run like the military!  (don't you remember that just last
    year, the entire Navy shut down TWICE just so they could sort out some
    of their problems and get their sh*! together)
    
    Vice Presidents?  Managers?  Sure we have a lot...
    
    But how many levels of Line Officers are there in the military...
    
    Let's see.  I worked for a Chief Petty officer who worked for an
    Ensign, who reported to a J.G.  who salutes the Lieutenant, who bows to
    a Lt.Cmdr.  who says yessir to a Commander who calls the Captain his
    Boss.  And that's before you get to wear a single star on your collar.
    
    And how many stars does Gen S. have?  was it three or four?  Powell has
    four, I think!
    
    No, folks... you don't want to model DEC after any branch of the U.S.
    Govt.
    
    tony

	Ref: .22

>	- At the top of all commanders' "goal sheets" was "get the resources
>	  to where they need to be!"

	Which is just a restatement of the military axiom of one Nathan 
	Bedford Forrest (late Calvary General, Confederate States of America)
	who in reply to the question; "What is your strategy, sir ?" ....
	he said; "Get there first with the most men."

	Chuck 

    Schwartzkopf has four stars.  He says he is not particularly interested
    in getting five.  He wants to retire and do something else, maybe in
    the environmental area.
    
    We probably do not want to run DEC like the military.  But there is an
    awful lot of stuff written about military strategy that is applicable
    to modern business.
    
    One of the books I keep above my desk at work is "The Art of Strategy",
    a translation of Sun Tzu's classic, The Art of War.  (Translation by
    R.L. Wing.  Highly recommended, along with his translation of the Tao
    Te Ching.)
    
    From section 11, "The Five Strategic Arts", from a little poster on my
    wall:
    
    		Winning Strategists are certain of triumph
    			Before seeking a challenge.
    		Losing Strategists are certain to challenge
    			Before seeking a triumph.

 Let me offer the following, before we all draw too many axioms from the recent
Gulf war.  One of the MAJOR contributing factors to the Allied success was 
technology.  The Allied side had advanced tactical fighter/bombers, electronic
intelligence and warfare capabilities, satellite recon, cruise missiles with an
amazing accuracy, effective anti-missile missiles and great PR/propaganda.
 Back in the days of PDP-11s (and the early days of the VAX program), I would
say that DEC had such a technological advantage over our competition. We don't
have such an advantage today; our hardware and software isn't "amazingly better"
than stuff coming out of the other major (and minor) manufacturers.  Hell, we 
don't even have good propaganda any more (-::

 					Nigel

    re .27, gad, how sanitized!  What ole NBF actually said was"
    
          "Git thar fustest with the mostest."

>                     <<< Note 1401.30 by COOKIE::LENNARD >>>
>
>    re .27, gad, how sanitized!  What ole NBF actually said was"
>    
>          "Git thar fustest with the mostest."

	Sorry, although the above quote is the popular one it is generally
	regarded by most CW historians as inaccurate given the known quotes
	& recorded writings of NBF.  Sorry to start a Rathole (tm).

	Chuck

    
    	Seen an interesting talk the other day on why we are losing
    market-share and in general are sitting in a very vunerable spot at
    this time. It would seem nearly all our strategies of the 80's were
    quite short sighted, and our new products such as Alpha have a
    steep hill to climb.  If we promote 2 new VP's to start with a new
    strategy and some products that might get us back in the game again,
    i'd be all for it.  It would seem that the market rules have changed
    and it is not at all clear that Digital as an entity is agile enough
    to turn it's head enough to notice (although it certainly has noticed
    all is not right!).  You can fear the worst(more of the same) or see
    Hope(change of course)!   I hope for the hope....
    
    
    	bob
    

    Just curious:
    A few notes back,someone from UK mentioned something about downsizing
    over there. It seems that layoffs are equally distributed between
    "workers" and management. In view of European governments being very
    protective of workers: Is it some kind of law that says layoffs must be
    equally shared between workers and management?
    
    Wondering...

    re: .29  Superior technology helped us to win the war quickly in the
    Gulf, but I believe superior leadership, strategy, and excecution
    played a much more important role.  Superior technology didn't help us
    in Vietnam precisely because of poor leadership, strategy, and
    execution.
    
    While I wouldn't want to see Digital organized like the military,
    I think Digital can learn a lesson from Gen. S. and how he led the
    campaign in the Gulf.  Gen. S. devised a winning strategy, one which he
    was willing to change as the situation warranted.  He made sure his key
    staff people/commanders knew what their roles were.  He was determined
    to win and made sure his troops all felt the same way.  The troops'
    morale was high, and why wouldn't it since they believed in their
    leadership.  The troops were armed with superior technology.  They were
    well supported with an unbelieveable logistics outfit.  Overall, it was
    a brilliant campaign.
    
    Let's see, we won in the Gulf because of:
    
    1) superior leadership
    1A) superior strategy
    2) superior communications
    3) superior morale
    4) superior training
    5) superior support
    6) superior execution
    7) superior understanding of the opposition
    8) superior technology
    
    Sounds like a pretty good blueprint for success in business to me. 
    When I look at Digital and look at the above list, it gets depressing.
    
    BTW: If the war started to go badly, do you think Gen. S. would've said
    that it's because of poor performance from the troops?  Would he have
    ordered all his field commanders to reevaluate all the troops and get
    rid of the "bad" ones?  Somehow, I believe he would've had the guts to
    bear the bulk of the responsibility and find some more constructive
    ways to turn it around.
                                

General S. won this war because he had the air force pounding Iraq with
smart bombs for over 60 days, plus the fact that he faced a inferior,
demoralized force.  The real test of General S. would be to put him in 
command in a situation like the Tet offensive and see how he makes out.

Managing when you have all the advantages in the world is easy, managing 
through adversity is the real test.  The analogy is VERY applicable to our
management in this company.

/d.c.

re:.35
>General S. won this war because he had the air force pounding Iraq with
>smart bombs for over 60 days, plus the fact that he faced a inferior,
>demoralized force.  The real test of General S. would be to put him in 
>command in a situation like the Tet offensive and see how he makes out.

    I suppose that it was "Schwartzy's" job to make sure that he had
    all the odds on his side, including the "preliminaries" 
    
>Managing when you have all the advantages in the world is easy, managing 
>through adversity is the real test.  The analogy is VERY applicable to our
>management in this company.

    Maybe that's where the difference between "management" and 
    "leadership" is.
/fred

    re: .34
    	You forgot "inadequate opposition" - which is NOT the case in our
    industry, as far as I can see,
    
    	- andy

    Hey, great news people!!! We got another new VP announced this morning.
    Forget his name, Mick, Nick, Dick...somethin' like that.  But who's
    counting?  Maybe we should just bar-code them.

    RE:             <<< Note 1401.38 by COOKIE::LENNARD >>>

>   Hey, great news people!!! We got another new VP announced this morning.
>   Forget his name, Mick, Nick, Dick...somethin' like that.  But who's
>   counting?  Maybe we should just bar-code them.
    
         Mr. Lennard.  I'm glad you brought this matter to my attention.
    I will submit the paperwork appointing you Vice President of Counting
    Vice Presidents.  Thank you for your contribution.
    
                           Gregory Bruno
                           Senior Vice President
                           of CXO Cafeteria Cheeseburgers
                                                         

    Bar codes for VP's...I love it! Let's see,what would their part numbers
    be?
    
    Ken
    

    (inside joke time I guess...)

    29-xxxxx class part numbers are those assemblies or circuit boards
    bought from outside of DEC, i.e. not manufactured here, a 'buyout'
    from another vendor. The 29-xxxxx class item is part of an option
    not built by DEC but is sold by DEC and bears the DEC logo.

RE:         <<< Note 1401.40 by CSC32::K_BOUCHARD "Ken Bouchard CXO3-2" >>>
                            -< 29 class employees >-

   > Bar codes for VP's...I love it! Let's see,what would their part numbers
   > be?
    
I'd rather wonder WHERE we'd put their numbers???
    
    tony
    

    Sorry about that...VPs part numbers shouldn't be 29 class unless said
    VP was "liberated" from some other company. They really should be 70
    class numbers with the variant (as in 70-XXXXX-XX) used to designate
    assistants.
    
    Ken

    Maybe they should create a 666-XXXXX-XX class?

    
    Here it is,
    
    29FATCAT-AB Parachute, colour gold, size large
    

    r.e .47
    
    I tend to agree with Barbara that these people may actually be entitled
    to their promotions/appointments. I dont know how anyone is selected
    from the wings to be a VP, in some places its because your a friend
    of the government or a relative. These people do have some claim above
    that and have track records. It may be that KO may want to get and
    keep people who have shown the old hands new ideas.
    
    That said, its a pity the pay to keep talent and reward for performance
    is not applied more evenly through the Corporation. I'm seeing people
    we cant afford to lose walk out the door, often to customers and
    competitors who will make positions especially for them and on
    substantially better rewards focused on achievement. They go, because
    they know noone really cares about their efforts here. These people
    are sick of having their performance fitted to a bell curve when they
    work >12 hr days, having executive decisions from newly appointed VPs
    chop the quality of what they deliver,having to argue the point on
    every equipment purchase they need to keep abreast and support the
    customer, doing the work of 2+ people because someone above has slapped
    a recruitment freeze on their world...
    
    John

    
    Re: Charlie Crist
    
    If Charlie Crist is an example of the persons currently being 
    promoted to VP then let's have lots more of them!!!!  If you
    get a chance to hear this guy speak and to interact with him
    you'll know what I mean.  I heard him speak here in ZKO
    last month.  He ducked NO questions and gave some very direct
    and concrete responses.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

re: .47

>    if I just look at the portfolios of Charlotte and Charlie, both
>    recent VP announcements, their work appears to be of a magnitude
>    that justifies their rank.

Apparently my sarcasm in .2 was more veiled than even I had hoped. :^)

Managing engineers, and having been involved in salary and promotion
planning for years, I've got reams of documentation telling me that
promotions are to be made based on "changes in responsibility",
and not simply as rewards. This becomes more critical as the rank increases.

If these people have new responsibilities to go along with their promotions,
that's fine. If they're simply being rewarded for past performance without
any change in responsibility that is W-R-O-N-G, or we're operating on
multiple standards (not surprising, I suppose.)

-Jack

    Isn't that the dual ladder system?  Technical and managerial are
    suposed to have separate pay and promotion systems.
    
    - Tom

   I could be wrong, but wasn't this week's VP an external hire?

   Really upsets me when we're actually laying off and then we hire more
politicians.  (Well, to be fair, maybe this guy is alright and will do a world
of good, but we should have attrited -- learning my vocab from S.  :-) --
one of the other VPs.)

					-mjg

re:.50

Possibly these promotions were needed to enable these folks to have the
clout to do what they were hired for. I don't think they were any form
of reward for what they have done in the past. It will take a VP to break
some of the dynasty's that have been built within this company. Maybe
instead of blasting the activity just based on what it looks like,
we should consider all the possibilities.

John I.

    Re: .53:
    
       Yes, it might take someone at the VP level to realize that the
    workers have good ideas and want to save our company from its current
    slide.  But does it take as many as we have?  It seems to me that when
    you reach enough people at the same level, the ability of any one of
    them to make a difference is minimal.
    
    					-mjg
    

re:-1

I never said that it would take someone at a VP level to realize that
changes were necessary. If us peons can see the need, then.........
What I said was, it would take someone in a VP level to MAKE/FORCE those
changes because of the existing empires that exist.

Just a minor correction. 

Cheers.

John I.
    

To add some perspective to this, I worked for a company that had 13 VP's and 
only 300 employees.  

Dave,

That's not perspective, that's totally insanity and sounds like most banks
I have had any dealings with.

Cheers,

John I.

      Worldwide News                                        LIVE WIRE
                                                            March 29, 1991

                 Mick Prokopis promoted to vice president

  Mick Prokopis has been promoted to vice president, reporting to Ken Olsen,
  president.

  In this capacity, Mick will be responsible for the integration of the 
  Business Unit plans, which will form the corporation's budget.  He will 
  also provide a planning context for the Executive Committee to effectively 
  implement the New Management System (see related article).

  Mick has been with Digital for three years as Manufacturing Group Controller 
  and more recently as a key focus for cost structure reduction.  Prior to 
  joining Digital, Mick was senior vice president and Chief Financial Officer 
  for Lotus Development Corporation.  From 1974-85, Mick held a series of 
  senior finance positions at United Technologies Corp., the last of which was 
  vice president of Finance and CFO at Mostek Corporation.

 There has been a lot of talk lately about Digital's "New Management System," 
 which, in his new job, Mick Prokopis will help the Executive Committee 
 implement (see related article).  The following are the principles of the 
 New Management System as stated by the Executive Committee:

                  New Management System principles 

   1. Digital's managers operate with entrepreneurial freedom, discipline 
      and responsibility
    
   2. Digital is organized into Business Units with clearly understood 
      value added, cost and profit goals:
         - Customer Account Business Units
         - Product and Service Creation Business Units
         - Integration Business Units
    
   3. Each Business Unit, and supporting functions and geographies must 
      be "best in class" 

   4. Business Unit Managers have global responsibility to propose and 
      collaboratively manage plans and budgets integrated at the 
      Executive Committee
    
   5. Account Business Units have a buyer/seller relationship with the 
      Product and Service Creation Units and the Integration Business 
      Units
    
   6. Entrepreneurs must access information needed to manage their 
      commitments

  >   Mick has been with Digital for three years as Manufacturing Group
  >   Controller... 
    
    Hmmm....hired during the "hiring freeze" too?
    
    Mark

    It's really not all that hard to understand what's going on.  Whenever
    you can't figure out how to get something done... you re-organize and
    promote someone to VP.  With the trouble DEC has been having this is
    worth about one new VP per week.
    
    Look at the bright side... if things keep on going downhill, all of us
    that are left will all be VPs sooner or later.
    
    Who is the Vice President in charge of Restroom Services anyway... the
    towels seem to have run out!
    
    GaryB
    

    It WILL be interesting to watch the next year or so. Especially for us
    in Europe, where we have in total 9 VPs, to compare with the 80+ I can
    find in the US already...
    
    

    We could use a Lee Iioccoca up there on that level, though.  Somebody 
    who thinks we should still be building some things in the U.S. 
    Somebody who can look beyond the immediate tax break to the long-term 
    disaster that offloading all our manufacturing can do. 
    
    Nancy

>    We could use a Lee Iioccoca up there on that level, though.  Somebody 
>    who thinks we should still be building some things in the U.S. 
>    Somebody who can look beyond the immediate tax break to the long-term 
>    disaster that offloading all our manufacturing can do. 

	Well which is it? Do we need a Lee Iacocca or do we need someone
	who thinks we should build in the US? Iacocca imports a lot of
	stuff made in Japan. More of it all the time as Japanese companies
	continue to build more and more cars in the US. 

			Alfred

    
    With respect to the sentiments expressed, don't know if ol' Lee
    is the savior- unless we want someone who loves the spotlight, and
    loves to talk about how tough he is, and, while his market is collapsing
    points the finger elsewhere... and all the while waving the flag 
    while still importing many parts and vehicles- including
    the best selling Caravan/Voyager & some Jeep models (Canada).
    
    	Dave

    re: .62
    
    Yes, things should still be made in the U.S. However, if you pay
    your workforce mega bucks you won't compete. If you overstaff, you
    won't compete. If you do not have a Manf. plant in the EEC, you
    won't compete. If you ignore competitive innovation you won't
    compete.
    
    I am told that there are 17.5K employees in U.S. Manf. There are
    4.5K in Europe (and shrinking rapidly). Now look at the comparative
    ship figures and comparative salaries and you may find that..
    
    a) U.S. Manf. staff are paid (a lot) more than their European or GIA
       counterparts.
    
    b) U.S. Manf. is grossly overstaffed.
    
    Need I say more?
    
    Don H.
    

Speaking of downsizing I always find the section in "Digital Today" that
deals with what various people in the corporation do very amusing.  Just
as in the the latest issue, there always seems to be a description of
some managerial position that performs a dubious function.

    re:.66
    
    Yes,I know what you mean. Just reading some job descriptions,I've often
    thought: "now *there* is a job that's got to pay superbly and is about
    as taxing as sweeping a floor"
    
    Ken

     re .65
    
    you might also find that US manufacturing ships to Europe and/or GIA
    ... thus muddling your comparisons!
    
    Hard to compare without knowing who ships what where
    
    

     Re>.65
    
             AND how do you know taht US MFG staff make more $ than 
    	     European MFG.

    re: .70
    
    Please re-read my note. I only suggest that with the limited figures
    I have that U.S. Manf. look to be overstaffed compared with Europe.
    
    FWIW, Ayr Manf. shipped $470m last quarter.
    
    Don H.
    
    
    

    Just read the note announcing Bruno D'Avanzo's resignation from
    Digital.  After only meeting him briefly a few times, I'm sorry
    to see him go.  
    Mark
    

RE: .62

We only need a Lee Iacocca if he doesn't come with Lee Iacocca's $4M+ 
compensation package.

--PSW

$4M would be a small price to pay for some dynamic executive leadership in
this corporation...

q

    Oh, I think we have some dynamic leaders.
    
    Not all that effective in the past, but, with the new Corporate
    Marketing Organisation, I believe I see positive signs.
    
    	- andy

    re: .74
    
    It is dangerous to wish for a "man on a horse" who will sweep away all
    the bad old stuff and institute new, good policies and managers.  As
    the French learned at the end of the 18th century, once the revolution
    starts it can be hard to contain.  Even the most fervent revolutionary
    may feel the guillotine before things stabalize.
        John Sauter

    Don't be too sure that folks in Europe are not in general paid more
    that their U.S. counterparts.  This probably doesn't apply to the
    U.K., but in Switzerland, Central Europe and Scandhovia, I'll bet
    the average wages are high....not to mention much better bennies.
    
    Iacoca's wages aren't that high.  Remember, Chrysler is a much bigger
    company that DEC.  He got 900K in salary, 200+ K in bonus', and about
    three million in stock options he exercised.  Sounds about like what
    KO gets.....except I hear he never messes with his stock options.
    
    I'd like to see a guy like Iacoca step in and kick a little butt.

>    Don't be too sure that folks in Europe are not in general paid more
>    that their U.S. counterparts.  This probably doesn't apply to the
>    U.K., but in Switzerland, Central Europe and Scandhovia, I'll bet
>    the average wages are high....not to mention much better bennies.
    
    You are right of course, but before the big immigration wave starts,
    let me tell you that in each country DEC applies the same 
    pay philosophy: Industry average, no more, no less (hopefully).
    Now if you find a country that is still in the "golden ages"
    of computers, the "industry average" may look quite high!
    /fred

    
    RE: .78
    
    There are 6 Manf. plants in the U.K./Ireland.
    
    There are 0 Manf. plants in the Scandic countries.
    
    There are 0 Manf. plants in Switzerland.
    
    There are 2 Manf. plants in Central Europe.
    
    Don H.
    

    re -1
    
    There will be 0 Manf. plants in the U.S.
    
    Mark

Does anyone have a list of the major manufacturing plants that Digital currently has and what is
manufactured at each location?

You can scratch Enfield off this list. A memo in CRBOSS::DATA_MANAGEMENT says
it will be closing also.

AOH Austin, TX - Oak Hill/- Discrete Manufacturing Services
APO Andover, MA - Semiconducter and Manufacturing Technology ( SCMT )
BBP Birmingham, England - Manufacturing Industries Customer Centre
BOO Roxbury, MA - Manufacturing Plant
BPO Marlboro, MA - GIA Manufacturing and Engineering Support Headquarters Staff
BSM Bristol, England - Southern Manufacturing Applications Centre
BTO Burlington, VT - Central Processing and Manufacturing Plant
BXC Boxborough, MA - Small Systems Manufacturing - Admin
ENO Enfield, CT - Manufacturing Plant
FXO Franklin, MA - Systems Manufacturing 
GYT Chiba, Japan - Ichikawa Plant/Quality Assurance Manufacturing/QAM/SDD
HKO Kwai Chung, Hong Kong - Manufacturing Plant
HZO Hudson, NH - Low Volume Software Manufacturing
ICO Chelmsford, MA - Manufacturing Strategic Collaberation/N.E. Volume District
KBO Kaufbeuren, Federal Republic of Germany - Manufacturing Plant
KLO Clonmel, Ireland - Manufacturing Plant
LJO Littleton, MA - Small Systems Manufacturing Group/Personal Computing Sys.
MEX Chihuahua, Mexico - Mexico Manufacturing
MLO Maynard, MA - Corporate Headquarters/Engineering/Manufacturing/Plant
MOO Marlboro, MA - GIA Manufacturing and Engineering Support/MIS
NIO Salem, NH - Systems Manufacturing Plant
NSO Salem, NH  - Field Service Manufacturing/East Coast DLO
PNO Phoenix, AZ  - Manufacturing Plant/Computer Systems Mfg./Terminals Mfg.
SGO San German, Puerto Rico - Manufacturing Plant
SPO Springfield, MA - Manufacturing Plant
SQF Livingstone, Scotland - Semiconducter Manufacturing
TAO Taoyan, Taiwan - Manufacturing and Engineering Plant (Republic of China)
TWO Tewksbury, MA - Computer Systems Manufacturing Engineering and Technology
VLO Valbonne, France - Manufacturing Plant
WJO Westford, MA - Computer Systems Manufacturing Business Unit
YKO Holoyoke, MA - Westfield Manufacturing Stockroom
ZGO Singapore, Singapore - Manufacturing Plant

You can also scratch off PNO - Phoenix was the first plant to bite the dust.

And add
	CXO colorado Springs, CA - Storage Media
	TFO Tempe, AZ - Storage Media

>        CXO colorado Springs, CA - Storage Media
         CXO colorado Springs, Co

Unless we've all moved :-)

    Hey,  Don't forget about us out here in sunny Cupertino, California
    home of the Vax 9000 MCU's. Were under ASIP but i don't know what are
    three letter acronym is :-)
    
    Brian

    RE:  .85
    
    	UCF
    

    What's the difference (in Digital) between a senior manager and a VP.
    Whats the difference between being Manager of SYSTEMS XYZ against VP of
    SYSTEMS XYZ - is it financial, legal, image or what.

    Do we have so many VP's because our business demands it, or because
    there is an expectation created internally that you need to come a VP
    to really make it.  
    
    If we changed the VP title to SSM (Super Senior Manager) would we have
    a SSSM (Serious Super Senior Manager) problem.

    I suppose I'm asking if VP is just a title - and apart from the
    prestige of the title - does it mean anything,

    Alex.
              

    Re: .82
    
    	You forgot WFO (Westfield, Ma.) which used to build most of the
    microvax+mipsfair systems and modules, that was until Q3.  Then we 
    transfered 500+ jobs to KAO,AYO,ASO, and ABO.  But we still have some 
    folks making metal fab.
    
    	After seeing the latest copy of Digital Review, it would seem that
    hardware manufacturing isn't the only business we seem to be getting
    out of.  The article in question states that DEC gave/out-sourced 
    our OSF version of ULTRIX to SCO Inc. (Santa Cruz Operations).
    
    /AKS 

Re:             <<< Note 1401.83 by XOANAN::RAINE "Susan Raine" >>>

>	CXO colorado Springs, CA - Storage Media

The CXO plant (which we now know is in Colorado :-) does not produce storage 
media.  It produces Disk Drives and Storage Subsystems.

-  David

re:                       <<< Note 1401.88 by JUMBLY::PARK >>>
>                               -< What is a VP? >-

>    What's the difference (in Digital) between a senior manager and a VP.

I could be way off base on this, but believe some of the differences include:

	o VP's are officers of the corporation (I think that in some cases
	  this can be tied to certain legal liabilities)
	o VP's are required to be listed in the Annual report
	o VP's are subject to certain SEC regulations re: stock transfers, etc.

	and, my favorite

	o VP's can approve personnel requisitions for external hires during
	  hiring freezes   :^)

-Jack

    Re .-1
    
    I'd like to correct a statement in .-1. Not all VPs are Corporate
    Officers, in fact very few are.
    
    Dave

    re: .91

    .92 is correct. Few of the Vice Presidents are Officers.  Officers have
    the power to legally bind the company.

    There's no obligation to list anyone in the annual report except for
    the Board of Directors.

    The SEC regulations that apply to disclosure of the purchase and sale
    of DEC stock do not apply to all VP's and apply to employees who are
    not VP's.  The test is "possession of material information", see policy
    6.06.

    The "vice president" title really has no external meaning, it's real
    impact is the so many internal things now require "VP" approval that
    it's important to have one conveniently nearby.

Hmm - looks like I was wrong on 3 outa 4 then. Thanks for straightening
me out, Pat.

So it's actually kinda like being a VP at a bank, then. :^) Wonder why they
just aren't authorized for certain responsibilities as upper level managers,
rather than giving them the misleading title, as .90 asked?

I would guess it has better impact when they are dealing with customer
situations, as the customers probably don't think of us as being similar
to banks. ("Of _course_ DEC cares - I spoke with one of the Vice Presidents.")

-Jack

    Seems to me that customers want to talk with a VP because they want to
    talk to an officer of the Corporation.  But, if a VP is not necessarily
    an officer and can't bind the Corporation ...
    
    Also, it seems to me it would be CHEAPER to EMPOWER folks at lower
    levels to approve the trivial things that currently require a VP.
    I have had to go through approval with a VP and the VP dodged having to
    have any understanding of the thing requiring approval.  VPs are no
    longer to sign off on this particular thing (paper for outside
    publication).  More things should not require approval from the top and
    should only require approval from as high a level as will take the time
    to understand it.
    
    Notice the intentional drawing of attention to the conflicts here between 
    downsizing, the declared intent to empower employees at lower levels and 
    the justification of adding more VPs to make approvals easier to get.
    There is clear incompatibility here.  Toss in the desire of important
    customers to deal with Corporate officers and INSTEAD getting VPs who
    are unable to bind the Company but who are responsible for handling
    issues that should be handled at lower levels ... 
    
    Steve 

There's a new VP announced in Livewire: John Alexanderson.

    RE: .95  
    
    Agreed - I've always found it incredible that VP's have to approve so
    many things. If we define some clear financial controls and procedures,
    why not empower people at lower levels. The VP looks at the financial
    trends, not spending what must be very expensive and wasted time
    authorising line items.
    
    Maybe this already happens? But then I'm still not very clear on what a
    VP is.......... except that it sounds a very very important title.

    Alex.
    

Re: .98
>>There's a new VP announced in Livewire: John Alexanderson.
    
    Alexanderson was already a VP; he took his title with him to his 
    new position as head of Sales and Sales Support Training.

	... opening up! Management circulated a memo today that Don Busiek
is, "... retiring to pursue personal interests ...".

	I think he could safely be described as part of the "old-timer
clique", like Shields, Weiss Shue, etc.  About the only ones left are
Smith, Grainger, and Olson.

re: .102,

>	I think he could safely be described as part of the "old-timer
>clique", like Shields, Weiss Shue, etc.  About the only ones left are
>Smith, Grainger, and Olson.

    	Don't forget Ken Olsen, you know, the company president.
			    ^
    				    -davo

p.s.	That's the second note I've seen today where Ken's last name
    	was mispelled!

	... NOTES/DECwindows EDIT window a couple of notches!  :>)

	Can't believe I did that.  Should just stick to KO!

    Don Zereski has been with DEC probably as long as Don Busiek. All I
    know is when I came to work for the company both Busiek and Zereski
    were product support managers. (36 bit and 18 bit respectively)
    
    Ken

Worldwide News                      LIVE WIRE                  11-Sep-1991

                      Lyn Benton promoted to vice president

  Lyn Benton has been promoted to vice president.  In this capacity, Lyn will 
  be responsible for the integration of the business unit plans, 
  implementation of the New Management System, and corporate financial 
  planning and analysis.
         
  Lyn has been with Digital since 1979 and has held positions as 
  Manufacturing plant controller in Westminster, group controller Small 
  Systems Manufacturing, and Finance/Operations manager Low End Systems.  
  Before joining Digital, she was manager of operations analysis at the 
  Foxboro Company.  Prior to this, Lyn held senior management positions at 
  several other manufacturing companies.  She holds an undergraduate degree 
  from Northeastern University and an MBA from Babson College.

    
    Another 400K down the drain.

RE: .108

Looks like NMS has really started off on the wrong foot.  Do we REALLY need
yet another VP to oversee NMS?

--PSW

    The main problem,as I see it,is that as we add VP after VP we increase
    the number of people directly reporting to KO,thus creating a real
    bottle-neck at the top. To improve this situation,I propose that we
    create the new position of Vice President in charge of Vice Presidents.
    This will have the immediate effect of reducing KO's direct reports by
    a hundred and freeing up lots of his time. (he would now only have one
    direct report) Think about it.
    
    Ken

    
    RE: .111, Ken
    
    I don't understand the question.  There already are VPs reporting to
    VPs.  You don't think they ALL report to KO, do you?  Look at the Corp.
    Org. Chart (VTX ORANGEBOOK), which shows KO with Hoffmann, Osterhoff,
    Smith, Hindle and Sims reporting to him.  (Well, the Osterhoff one will
    change, but...).  I know Jack Smith has a number of VPs under him, and
    imagine the others do, as well.  The Orangebook chart listed just the
    Exec. Comm., but other charts (which I can't find at the moment) show
    the structure.
    
    ?????
    
    
    Ruth
    

    The 1970-era org chart:   The 1990-era org chart:
    
    P                          P
    |                          |
    VP                         SVP
    |                          |
    MGR                        VP
    |                          |
    MGR                        VP
    |                          |
    MGR                        VP
    |                          |
    INDV                       MGR
                               |
                               MGR
                               |
                               MGR
                               |
                               INDV

    Osterhoff leaves with lots of Rich '0000s and we are in Grave Dainger
    of Digital getting the big KO!

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>
    
 Edition : 2413               Monday 23-Sep-1991            Circulation :  8287 

VNS COMPUTER NEWS:                            [Tracy Talcott, VNS Computer Desk]
==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]

 Digital - Vice presidents David Grainger, Robert Norse leave company
	{The Wall Street Journal, 20-Sep-91, p. B7}
   Digital Equipment said David Grainger, a vice president who headed Digital's
 efforts to sell computers through other manufacturers and software producers,
 left the company. Mr. Grainger is the fourth Digital vice president in the
 past six weeks to announce plans to leave his job. The 48-year-old Mr.
 Grainger once headed Digital's world-wide sales and service operations, but he
 was transferred to a more limited role in what Digital calls "corporate
 channels." Mr. Grainger couldn't be reached for comment. A Digital spokeswoman
 said Mr. Grainger didn't disclose any new job plans, but she said she assumed
 had "numerous offers." A successor wasn't named. Earlier this week, Richard A.
 Nortz, vice president, U.S. customer services, left Digital to join Wang
 Laboratories Inc.  "It wouldn't surprise me to see more changes at that level
 in the near term," said Terry Shannon, president of Gander Resources, an
 Ashland, Mass., consulting firm that follows Digital. Digital has never
 designated a successor to its founder and president, Kenneth H. Olsen, adding
 to speculation about its management hierarchy. Mr. Olsen, who is 65, has not
 announced any plans to leave Digital.

 Digital - Robert Glorioso takes leave of absence
	{The Boston Globe, 20-Sep-91, p. 74}
   Robert Glorioso, another Digital veteran, said he was taking a leave of
 absence. Glorioso was responsible for the company's VAX 9000 series computers,
 Digital's entry into mainframe machines, and the company's push into massively
 parallel systems.

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2413      Monday 23-Sep-1991   <><><><><><><><>

  Worldwide News                    LIVE WIRE                   07-Oct-1991

       Jack MacKeen appointed to head Government Systems Business Unit

  Jack MacKeen has been appointed to head the Government Systems Business 
  Unit.  Jack will lead Digital's Government Team, with responsibility as a 
  business unit for Marketing, Sales and Service to the U.S. Federal 
  Government.  He will also manage the development and support of unique 
  Government solutions on a worldwide basis.  Jack will be the U.S. Team 
  member accountable for development and execution of the U.S. Federal 
  Government plan, including both Strategic Direction and Business Unit 
  Management.

  Jack brings over 30 years of industry exerience to his new role.  He 
  originally joined Digital in 1961 as an engineer.  Progressing through a 
  variety of increasing engineering, marketing and product line management 
  responsibilities, he was named corporate vice president, OEM Group, in 
  1985; vice president, Corporate Channels, in 1987; and vice president, 
  International Accounts Marketing, in 1989.

                    DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY Document
    
                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

Folder:    READ                         Date:      11-Dec-1991 03:30pm EST
Doc No.:   001884                       From:      US_TEAM 
Printed:   11-Dec-1991 03:38pm                     US_TEAM@NEST@MRGATE@NRGATE@NRO 
                                        Dept:       
                                        Tel No:     

TO: See Below

Subject: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT MESSAGE                    

    The U.S. Team is excited and enthusiastic about the progress we have 
    made in moving decision making closer to our customers.  It is clear 
    that our customers are responding positively to these changes in the 
    way we are now doing business.  The business relationships we are 
    forming with our current and prospective customers will carry us into 
    the leadership position in the industry in the decade of the Nineties.
    
    We will make every effort to continue to demonstrate our commitment to 
    moving the decision making responsibility and authority closer to our 
    customers.  We want our customers to have access, in the shortest 
    direct line, to our senior managers.
    
    As such, and in recognition of the importance of their positions and 
    their close contact with customers, the U.S. Team is proud to announce 
    the following ten senior managers have been named vice president. Their 
    responsibilities to employees and customers is as before.
    
    Frank Branca: Northeast Region vice president, U.S. Digital Services
    
    Lynn Busing: Services Industry vice president, U.S. Digital Services
    
    Tom Colatosti: Eastern States Sales vice president
    
    Ruth Gaines: Telecommunications and Networks vice president, U.S.
    		 Digital Services
    
    Bob Hult: Western Region vice president, U.S. Digital Services
    
    Michael Jackson: North Central Region vice president, U.S. Digital 
    		     Services
    
    Ed Kamins: Distribution vice president, U.S. Sales
    
    Tony Morris: U.S. Government Sales vice president
    
    John O'Keefe: Complementary Solutions Organization vice  president,
    		  U.S. Sales
    
    Mel Ray: Education and Consulting Services vice president,  U.S.
    	     Digital Services
    
    We are excited to be able to take this step forward by recognizing this 
    important contact with our customers.  Please join me and the U.S. Team 
    in congratulating these new vice presidents by giving them your full 
    support and cooperation.

                    DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY Document

Distribution: [ ... DELETED ... ]

    Huh,
    
    	prmoting people is going to bring them closer to the customer? Did
    I miss something?
    
    q
    

The memo talks about moving decision making authority closer to customers.
I think it's trying to say that these new VPs are as close to the customer
as they were before their promotions, but they now have more authority.

    Gee, I thought .117 was a joke.  You mean it wasn't?
    You mean they're actually appointing and announcing new
    VP's now in batches of 10?!
    
    Incredible... for once, I'm speechless.
    
    So, when are the next 10,000 of us being laid off?...
    Will these names be announced with the same enthusiasm and
    fervor as was evident in this "VP += 10" ta-da?  :-S
    
    Chris

    re: .120
    
    Take a chill pill.
    
    Most of those announced were already VP's.  The rest have taken on the
    responsibilities of the title.  What you didn't read in the
    announcement were the significant number of former office-holders who
    are now on 'special projects' or in charge of 'strategic planning', if
    you catch my drift.
    
    Al
    

    in the past few days, received notification of 6 new VPs, and 1
    resigned a few days after the appointment.
    
    Mark
    

    Who resigned?
    

    Kurt Friedrich, VP of UNIX Systems Software Group.  Bob Lindenberg, the
    group manager for ULTRIX engineering who worked for Kurt, resigned a
    few weeks ago as well.
    
    Mark
    

>    Kurt Friedrich, VP of UNIX Systems Software Group.  Bob Lindenberg, the
>    group manager for ULTRIX engineering who worked for Kurt, resigned a
>    few weeks ago as well.

Bob did not resign from Digital. He is the new group engineering manager in
Bill Heffner's Image/Voice/Video PCU.

   

    RE: .124  by MRKTNG::SILVERBERG 
    
    >Bob Lindenberg, the group manager for ULTRIX engineering who worked for
    >Kurt, resigned a few weeks ago as well.
    
    Gee, he was still riding our Digital Commuter Van as of this morning.
    
    :-)
    

>    Gee, he was still riding our Digital Commuter Van as of this morning.

Dennis, you *know* that's against the rules.  You'll have to let him
walk home tonight.

    How VPs are there now?  When I asked the boss that, the answer was,
    "Probably fewer than companies of this size, anyhow".
    
    /Charlotte

    >> How many VP's are there now?
    
    Four more than there were yesterday.  I just got a new memo
    announcing four new VP's in The New Software Group.
    
    Chris

    I screwed up.  Bob L. did not resign but moved over.  The mind seems to
    be going as fast as the hair 8^).  Apologies to Bob. 
    
    Mark
    

From page 7 of Digital Today, January 27, 1992, Vol III, Issue 4:

--------------------------------------------
Who's News

The following were recently named to the position of Digital vice presidents:

Ed Kamins		U.S. Distributor Sales, U.S.Sales
Tony Morris		U.S. Government Sales, U.S.Sales
John O'Keefe		Complementary Solutions Organization, U.S.Sales
Tom Colatosti		Eastern States Accounts, U.S.Sales
Roger Rose		Petrochemical Accounts, U.S.Sales
Frank Branca		Eastern States, U.S.Digital Services
Ruth Gaines		Telecommunications and Utilities, U.S.Digital Services
Mel Ray			Education and Consulting Services U.S.Digital Services
Mike Jackson		Central States, U.S.Digital Services
Bob Hult		Western States, U.S.Digital Services
Lynn Busing		Services Industry, U.S.Digital Services
Dick Heaton		Technical OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) B.U.
Willow Shire		Healthcare Business Unit
Abbott Weiss		Retail/Wholesale Business Unit
Larry Cabrinety		Video, Image and Print Systems group
John Rose		Personal Computing Systems Group
Jim Willis		Components Business Group
Bill Keating		Software Development Technologies Group
Hans Gyllstrom		Network Application Services Group
Dennis Roberson		Corporate Information Systems Group

    
    "I'm a VP!"
    
    "So what?"
    

    Many of those listed in .131 are old news.  There are, however, 10
    names which were not denoted as VP's in the key contacts list;
    therefore the current count stands at 89.
    
    Which still ain't 150...
    
    Al
    

    The list being referred to does not include Europe or GIA, I don't
    think.  Must add a few to the 89 count . . .