Conference 7.286::digital

    Well, why not ask the person that told you where they got the rumour
    from? Follow it back to source. 
    
    If the source is a VP in Personnel or summat, then believe it. If it's
    the local car wash attendant................

    All I know is that is started from a mgr back east. Can't follow it
    back further than that.....I was hoping someone back east could verify
    or deny?!
    
    -pat

    
    What better way to end TFSO?  
    
    Give every single employee one last shot at a TFSO package, probably
    greatly reduced.  Then, next round of layoffs, you get 9 weeks, period.
    
    Any complaints about lack of packages, differential treatment, or
    injustice will be answered with "You had your chance, you knew the
    risks".

    >>Give every single employee one last shot at a TFSO package, probably
    >>greatly reduced.  Then, next round of layoffs, you get 9 weeks,
    >>period.
      
    Economists call this "dangling carrot attrition"......
    
    |^)
    
    Steve                   

    My opinion:  You will get alot of takers....but I bet they will be the
    ones that the company really would like to keep - the worker bees.  I
    think alot of management (middle and upper) will hang on....milking the
    cow for as long as they can.  For me - I hope this is more than just a
    rumor.  
    
    This is your assignment - if you choose to accept it - find out if there
    is any truth to this rumor!
    
    -pat

    
    I got to experience the deregulation of the Bell System while I was at
    AT&T from '81 to '85.  We had three big waves of layoffs, much like
    TFSO.  After that was finished, the voluntary quit rate went through
    the ceiling as we competed to get out of there.
    
    There are signs of the same behavior starting up here.  We lost our
    third person in about three months to competitors today.  We have also
    lost six people to other jobs in DEC, and TFSO'd one manager, three
    sales reps, and two software people.  Counting the voluntary transfers,
    our "quit" rate vs. TFSO is almost 2 to 1.  

    RE: .1  by ASICS::LESLIE 
    
    >If the source is a VP in Personnel or summat, then believe it. If it's
    >the local car wash attendant................
    
    What if it's a former VP who's now a car wash attendant?
    

    
    Re:
    
>SWAM2::SCHMAUDER_PA                                   5 lines   6-OCT-1992 14:38
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    All I know is that is started from a mgr back east. Can't follow it
>    back further than that.....I was hoping someone back east could verify
>    or deny?!
    
    Perhaps if you give the name someone who knows this person may be able
    to follow up. A 'mgr back east' could be anyone. If you want answers
    post more detailed information. Ie tell us how far you got along the
    chain. Then somebody else can take it from there.
    
    In myt experience this is the best way to get to the base of rumours
    fast. And often "rumours are young facts" as my personal name used to
    or maybe still does say.
    
    Dave

    Besides, surely the company has learnt by now that it should pointing
    the finger at those it wants to be rid of, rather than allowing the
    ones who'll have no trouble finding work elsewhere, to leave... Hasn't
    it? Hello.. hello... is there anybody there?...
    
    Laurie.

  Re .7

>    What if it's a former VP who's now a car wash attendant?

  .. or vice versa ?

    The rumor has been passed around here in the East. As 0.3 say it would
    make sense, but I believe the evidence indicates it is false.
    
    In the Manchester Union Leader (NH), which articles I have found very
    accurate and futuristic in their coverage of Digital's down sizing.
    The last article I saw quoted  a Digital spokeperson who said 
    reductions would be done by reorganizing [new business groups]. She
    added good people would be let go and she couldn't give the numbers.
    Others have estimated it, up to 25,000. All evidence indicates that
    this is going to happen. After going through this extensive exercise
    it doesn't seem reasonable that Digital would offer a volunteer program.
    

    
    
    	re .2
    
    	I suggest that you contact the 'mgr back east' to substantiate
    	or refute the rumor.

   In this notesfile, I haven't run into *ONE* rumor that *HASN"T* turned
   out to be true so far.

   Can someone point out to something that hasn't turned out to be true?

   I think that Digital's employees and particularly noters here are responsible
   people. In the absence of direct communication from the top (I am aware
   of the SEC regulations and all that crap), this seems to be the only
   *reliable* source so far.

   Nari

>                    -< Rumor-busters...answer this one... >-
>
>
>   In this notesfile, I haven't run into *ONE* rumor that *HASN"T* turned
>   out to be true so far.
>
>   Can someone point out to something that hasn't turned out to be true?


	Oh YEAH !?!?

	What about the one that said that Ken Olsen was a space alien,
	or possibly Elvis ?

	Hmmph.

	Steve H

    >   In this notesfile, I haven't run into *ONE* rumor that *HASN"T* turned
    >   out to be true so far.
    >
    >   Can someone point out to something that hasn't turned out to be
    >   true?
    
    There was a rumor some months ago about DEC being bought out by
    Mitsubishi........didn't happen....DAM!
    
    8^)

    There  have been a number of rumors here about Digital being bought out
    by one company or an other. There were a lot of rumors about SERP, the
    terms that would be offered, that did not come about. There have been
    rumors like that in .0 as well. So far it hasn't happened.
    
    		Alfred

    there was another one about GE buying DEC too.

    may be we should start a note about all rumors that we hear about
    and the current status of the rumor. sounds like a useful note
    to me. like a rumors data base, to keep track of the rumors else
    it gets lost in the midst. we assign a Keyword for each rumor,
    and if you want to know the status, you can type :

    notes> UPDATE/ RUMOR=GE_BUY_DEC /SINCE=LAST

    /nasser

I heard a rumor that, if DEC stock drops below $30, then John's variety
store at the corner of main & elm streets was going to buy DEC.

- George

    All kidding aside...
    
    We're losing about 70% of our group and the package is less than the
    last one.  Seems to me Bob just wants us out and future packages will
    only be 9 weeks.  I'd say opening the door would cost too much money
    and after what he said in the globe, (something like) people should be
    happy to leave knowing it's good for Digital!!!!  I have also read he
    doesn't believe in paying people to leave.
    
    This is a new regime and things are changing quickly!!!

    
    Are you implying that the package offered to your group is already down
    to 9 weeks?
    
    Curious
    

    There are some legal protections in providing a package.  Employees 
    can't sue "if the package they receive is considered significant".  
    Even if you sign a waiver, if the package is not considered
    "significant" then the employee is free to sue away.  Nine weeks 
    isn't considered significant.
    
    Source:  Juliet Brudnoy, Boston Globe.

    I hate to burst all your ram-rod-straight-ethics bubbles, but go back
    and look at the rumors about the take-over.

    Mitsubishi *DID* at one time start buying huge blocks of DEC stock.
    And if I remember right, Ken did acknowledge some overtures from some
    other companies about a take-over.

    On the other hand, every rumor about SERP, next round of layoffs,
    number of people to be cut, etc..have come true so far. 

    So, spare the wisecracks about aliens. Give me some facts.

    Nari
    

re: .19

>    and after what he said in the globe, (something like) people should be
>    happy to leave knowing it's good for Digital!!!!

Did he really say this? Is the quote in here somewhere?

-Jack

    
    9 weeks is not a "package" offered by DEC out of the goodness of 
    their hearts.  It's a legal requirement.  For a company the size 
    of DEC, all layoffs over a certain number (50?) require 60 days 
    notice.
    
    I wonder what the next "package" would be if the state didn't
    require 60 days?
    
    

    Just saw some interesting information in our competitive news forum
    that HP intends to offer employees a voluntary severance incentive
    (VSI) package.  Six months salary and one-half month salary for each
    year, up to a total of 12 months pay.
    
    MMoore

No, Palmer didn't say anything about "people should be happy to leave
because it's good for DEC". Some analyst, after hearing Palmer's
presentation, said something like that. The analyst's point was
that Palmer's presentation showed that the company is not
frivolously dumping people, that there are good reasons for
laying so many people off (in his judgement) and no one should
take it personally.

.22> On the other hand, every rumor about SERP, next round of layoffs,
.22> number of people to be cut, etc..have come true so far.

Every rumor about a voluntary package for all employees has been false.
Just as this one will probably be.

    RE: 26 - Dispite what the Analysts and so on like to jabber away 
    	     about, IMO we are indeed talking about a rather PERSONAL
    	     thing here. Being told YOU no longer have a job is certainly
    	     something that has great PERSONAL Impacts. If it's being done
    	     for sound, valid business reasons and needs then that needs to
    	     be communicated extremely well. Based on some other responses
    	     to other notes within this conference I don't see that as
    	     something that's been done consistently. In some cases its
    	     been done extremely poorly to say the least. I'd also love to
    	     be a fly on the wall in the office of some Wall Street
    	     Guru who feels people should be happy to leave their job
    	     when that person is told theirs just went away. It is a tough
    	     time for any and everyone. To ask someone to be happy, and
    	     supportive of something that just cost them their livelihood
    	     is, IMO, asking a little more than people should be expecting.
    	     As I recall, losing your job, is second or third on the list
    	     of most stressful, depressing things that occur in a persons
    	     life. Again, from my recollection it falls right behind the
    	     death of a spouse or loved one.
    
    RE: 27 - The original Package of TFSO's was offered to selected people
    	     on a voluntary basis. Granted they were placed into a pool
    	     of other folks who were transitioning. At that time there 
    	     were three options offered to those who were in that pool:
    			A. Seeking other employment within the Corporation
    			B. Going for Re-Skilling/Retraining IF there was
    			   some specific program for which you had an
    			   interest/requisite raw skillsets/an opening
    			   in that program/acceptance by that program.
    			   (I believe one of them was a Secretarial 
    			    Training/Reskilling Program and another
    			    involved Sales)
    			C. TFSO (Total Financial Severance Option) Package
    			   for "X" Dollars based on current Salary,
    			   Multipled by a specific table based on years
    	                   of service plus unused vacation time etc.
	I will grant that the people in that program had to make a choice
    	of A, B or C, however those who took C did so voluntarily.
    
    -- J 

    Re. .27
    
    Each winter for 10 years I have predicted that we will have
    heavy snow fall.  One winter I'm going to be right, just you
    wait and see!

> however those who took C did so voluntarily

My point was that rumours of a voluntary package for *all* employees
have been consistently false. The voluntary package you described was
for a clearly-defined category of employees, not all employees.

There never has been, and probably never will be, a voluntary package
which is open to all (or even all US) employees. Though there are a lot
of people who would like to see one.

     Re .29
    
     Yeah....even a BROKEN clock is right twice a day.........
    

    RE: 31
    
    Excellent !  I like it.
    In fact I am printing it out
    and putting it up for all to see.
    
    Rick A
    
    

    
    Reprinted without permission from 10/9/92 Washington Post
    
    Hewlett-Packard expects 2,700 employees to resign by early 1993 through
    a program to help the computer and instrument maker rein in expenses.
    H-P will take a of about $101 million to cover the program's cost.
    
    		fred deady
    		wbc::deady
    		dtn 425-3379

    An "open" uncontrolled voluntary paid exodus does not seem like the
    "Palmer" thing to do.....he's a numbers guy (I hear), a business man;
    it would seem uncharacteristic for him to support a program that would
    let the entire employee population decide who's leaving the company...
    
    IMHO,
    
    S

    how about a restricted open exodus, with restrictions by job codes?

       
       
   > how about a restricted open exodus, with restrictions by job codes?

       
       That's how the first one was done. Anyone with a 16-class job
       title (system support/application support people), and admin-type
       (sec's, Dept. Coords. etc.) were exempt from it.
       
       				->Jay
       

    
    re .35
    
    	I like it..
    
    	Was'nt Al Capone just a "Numbers Guy" and a "Business Man"
    
    	He was in the reducing worforce game as well.
    
    	:-)
    
    	

    RE: .38
    
    Yep, 
    
    and I bet Al Kapone never let anyone volunteer to be
    "dead-sized"....*he* made those decisions!
    
    |^)

    I don't think we'll see a "cross-the-board" offer.  I don't think sales
    will see any more offers...
    
    Given that level 2 management:
    
    Didn't ask account reps (or account managers) what they thought the
    account would buy this year....(an fy93 forecast)
    
    Dictated what the fy93 budget would be (purely top down) for the
    account reps and account managers
    
    Refused to accept  first half forecasts of less then 100% ytd
    
    I expect that beginning January 1st, sales people will be removed via
    the good old corrective action plan.
    
    Hey, it saves us the cost of 9 weeks!
    
    Of course this is all speculation based on direct and indirect
    observation.

    
    RE: .30
    
     "There never has been......." Do a dir/key= layoff or layoffs and 
    	get a History lesson. It was the summer of '85 and all you had
    	to do was ask for it. There were plenty of people who were more
    	than willing to look for other employment given the incentive of
    	13 weeks pay. My ex-SO and I both left at that time.
    
    		The climate was very similar in manufacturing then, as it
    	seems to be today. I'll have my 5 years for the second time IF I
    	stay past the New Years celebration. Forget the dinner's, show
    	some respect for the 5,10,15,20 year employees. Most of them
    	deserve it.
    
    
    				Paul
    
    

    You know what I "Love" about notes, speculations based on speculations.
    All I got to say is, do the job, and whatever happens, happens.  Don't
    worry about layoffs and all that other crap.  Who says your going to
    wake up in the morning.  Just position yourself financially for
    unemployment.  IF you don't lose your job, your that much better off.
    If you do lose your job, your prepared.
    
    I just get a kick out of all these rumours, and rumours based on
    rumours.  If you question a rumour, why don't you call BP himself.  I
    understand he responds to A1's.  Otherwise, it looks like nothing but
    "trash" and bad information in these notes. 
    
    I am a reader of a few different notesfiles, and the "Digital"
    notesfile seems to be non productive, and full of idle gossip where 3/4
    of the rumours within this company are started.  Almost every single
    topic ends up going in a rathole about "What do you think, I think this
    is what it means between the lines."
    
    Getting sick to my stomach from all this b.s.,
    
    Bob Harris (wishing my last name was Palmer)
    

	re: .42

	Bob,

	If it's useless, then:

	a) go away, or

	b) if you're in a position to enhance communications from
	   the on high, then please do.  

	Keep in mind that most of us rely on DIGITAL Notes to keep 
	our fingers on the pulse of the corporation... rumors, guesses 
	and inaccuracies aside.

	Thanks,

	Steve H

RE: Note 2148.42 
>> You know what I "Love" about notes, speculations based on speculations.
>> All I got to say is, do the job, and whatever happens, happens.  Don't
>> worry about layoffs and all that other crap.  Who says your going to
>> wake up in the morning.  Just position yourself financially for
>> unemployment.  

And I just love the folks who are in a financial position to deal with 
unemployment giving advice to those who aren't.  You'd probably tell the
Ethiopians to quit whining and become farmers too.

If you're prepared to deal with it, Great! Have a little compasson for those 
who through no fault of their own are caught up with a mortgage, kid(s),
and are trying to provide a full time Mom to our kids rather than doing
the daycare/two income scene.  For those of us in that situation, the
fear of job loss and losing everything is VERY real.  If the world showed
a little more compassion than you do, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess
in the first place.

And if notes and people expressing their concerns makes you sick, as .43
said, please just go away.  We don't want you to be sick.

re: >> Bob Harris (wishing my last name was Palmer)
    
Rick Wilson (who's thankful your last name is NOT Palmer)

.41> get a History lesson. It was the summer of '85 and all you had
.41> to do was ask for it. There were plenty of people who were more
.41> than willing to look for other employment given the incentive of
.41> 13 weeks pay. My ex-SO and I both left at that time.

This offer was not available to employees at VBO, where I worked at the
time. 13 weeks may be less than the minimum mandated by law in EEC
countries for certain categories of employees.

    RE: .41
    
    >>	get a History lesson. It was the summer of '85 and all you had
    >>  to do was ask for it. There were plenty of people who were more
    >>	than willing to look for other employment given the incentive of
    >>	13 weeks pay. My ex-SO and I both left at that time.
    
    I'm must be getting old or somehow I missed the boat...
    
    I worked in MKO in the summer of '85 and I don't remember anything like
    this at all.
    
    Was this really a general offer or did it only occur in some
    organizations?  Can someone be more specific as to what this offer was
    all about?
    
    Larry
    

       I was in NIO in the Summer of '85. Nobody there was asked as far as
    I can remember.
                                   Denny

re .44

>	Have a little compasson for those who through no fault of their 
>	own are caught up with a mortgage, kid(s),

	Would someone kindly explain to me how one acquires a mortgage
	and/or kid(s), "through no fault of their own"?


				Tom_K

    re: .48
    OK, OK.  What I meant to say was that these things were acquired or
    planned by LOTS of us before the downturn in the economy and DEC's
    misfortunes.  It's those things that are not our fault - obviously
    some of us played a small part in taking on the mortgage and kids.
    8^)
    
    That still doesn't change the basic point, which is that .42 smacks
    of the "I've got mine" attitude, and is sickened by listening to 
    people who are concerned about losing their jobs and everything
    they've worked for.  

    re. 44, not to get into a pissing contest, I do have a mortgage. I
    don't have kids.
    
    In reference to the Ethiopians, two things.  First, we have deserts in 
    America, but nobody lives there.  Nothing grow in the desert.
    Secondly, they're not my problem.  Survival of the fittest.  Take care
    of yourself by whatever means possible.  Business is business.  There
    is no room for "compassion" in the business world.  That is what
    charity organizations are all about.
    You got a job.  do the job.  Get paid for the job.
    If your company no longer needs you.  See you.  Sorry it sounds harsh,
    but thats life.  It ain't no bed of roses.
    

re .49

	If you acquired a long term commitment (kid(s), mortgage) without
	having a plan that you could live with should certain "unthinkable"
	things happen (like loss of job), then I'm afraid that I'm
	not going to have much sympathy for you, either.

					Tom_K

re: .50 and .51
    Man, you guys are brutal.  It's good to hear that you've planned your
lives so well that you'll be prepared for whatever happens.

    Have you ever had a friend or relative who's fallen on hard times? Maybe
it's their own fault, or maybe it's something totally beyond their control?
Did you tell them that all their bitching makes you sick, or that you have
no sympathy because they should have known before they had kids that their
job would one day be lost and no one in their field would be hiring?  I 
guess it's easy to say it to someone in notes.  Would you say the same thing 
to a friend or relative's face?

I'm not asking for your sympathy, I have a job and am doing just fine thankyou.
There ARE plenty of people, DEC employees included, who are not able to prepare
for financial security in the event that their job is lost or some other un-
planned event occurs.  There are others in the world who are never given the
tools (education or opportunity) to make it happen.  I hope you don't ask for 
anyone's sympathy or compassion if it happens to you.

    ...reminds me of the pinhead economist I saw on TV once. He said it's
    easy to be prepared for an emergency. Just have at least a years pay
    salted away! Yeah, right!
                                     Denny

    Okay, I'll admit that I'm one of those folks who have acquired a few
    kids (three in College as we speak) and one 81 year old House that's
    still Mortgaged. But, I always seek comfort in something that I'd read
    in a weekly (national) Business magazine shortly after the '87 Stock
    Market crash. The article said: "The average American family is always
    about 30 days away from Bankruptcy". note: Then the article proceeded
    to cite reasons why Joe Average American shouldn't be dabbling in the
    Stock Market.
    
    							regards,
    								Bob
    

    My main intent of my original note was to express that more rumours get
    started in this file than get resolved.
    
    Also, in reference to finances, everyone has there own situation, and
    yes you should have at least a year income in the bank.  If not, don't
    buy that new tv.
    
    I see all to often in these tough times people buying cars that are
    out of their means, and new furniture, using charge cards beyond
    repayment, squandering money away.  You got to prepare for the unknown.
    Business is still business.  If I was a boss, I don't care if one of
    my employees is living from paycheck to paycheck.  If I don't need
    that employee, he is gone.  Best of luck to him/her.  That is business.
    DEC has been so gracious to offer TFSO funds.  They don't have to.
    Don't rely on pensions (eastern airlines), social security, or any
    other retirement funds that you expect from someone else.  You HAVE
    to do it yourself.
    
    Still no compassion,
    
    Bob
    

    Sorry Bob, but I couldn't hold out any longer.  I think you have a
    serious attitude problem.  If you were my boss, you would not have the
    chance to let me go....I'd quit.
    
    To give you a real life example, I have a friend whos kid has some 
    sickness that costs about $50 - $60 K per year in medicine.  He looked
    into finding another job outside of Digital, and no one would put his
    kid on their insurance policy.  So what did he do?  He took another 
    position at a lower pay to keep from being TFSO'd so he could keep
    his insurance.  
    
    How long do you think he would survive paying $50+K in medical bills
    per year....just for 1 kid.
    
    How about those people who got AIDS from their doctor, or blood?  What
    did they do wrong that they don't deserve some compassion?  What 
    insurance company would insure them if thay lost their job.  Sure, 
    maybe they could find another job, but how would they pay the bills?
    
    Now I am NOT saying that everybody with a sob story should be exempt
    from loosing their job.  If they are a top performer, and there is
    proof of a situation such as this, then every effort should be made 
    to keep that persons job.  If he is a brown noser/slacker type, show
    him/her the door.
    
    ART who_does_have_compassion_for_fellow_workers____and_friends
    
        and who is willing to help them any way I can.
    
    

re: .55

>    Business is still business.  If I was a boss, I don't care if one of
>    my employees is living from paycheck to paycheck.  If I don't need
>    that employee, he is gone.  Best of luck to him/her.  That is business.

DEC lost many good people to competitors during the boom years.  If DEC had
been as cold hearted as you, it would have lost many, many more.

If you treat employees well, they'll treat the business well.  If you treat
employees poorly, they'll treat the business poorly.  

   Gary

    The voluntary 13 week package Paul was referring to   back in 1985 was only
    for Albuquerque employees. Not sure of the exact count but I think
    about 3 or 4 hundred people accepted it.

    i hear an open tsfo is a given, only question now is will there be
    restricted job codes.  got your resume out on the street? 
    opportunities like this don't come along everyday.

re. .55                           -< I guess I'm heartless >-
    
    You sure as hell are. Frankly Bob, I agree that in this day and age one
    must look out for "you and yours". But you can still do it with
    compassion and feelings for your fellow workers. Seems that is
    difficult for you to do. RE your:
    
    >Still no compassion,
    
    IMHO, you should take your own advice a few notes back and leave 
    this notesfile and go out and find someway to help this company
    generate more revenue. You don't have to be BP to do that.
    
    Gene.
    
    

>>    How about those people who got AIDS from their doctor, or blood?  What
>>    did they do wrong that they don't deserve some compassion? 
    
    This is a very offensive statement.  I have AIDS and it isn't because
    of my "doctor, or blood".  Because of this no compassion should be
    shown?
    
    Because a person is "gay" they deserved it, right?  Thats what your
    reply is saying.  The incidences of HIV infdction are growing the
    fastest amongst the "straight" population - especially women and
    minorities.  But I suppose they deserve it, they should be shown no
    compassion.
    
    AIDS is killing MILLIONS of people worldwide.  It's sad that Americans
    consider there to be "good ways" to get AIDS and "bad ways".  That it's
    "awful and so sad" to see "innocent children" get it, but for others
    "they deserve it".
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

RE .50

Well you just summed up the problem with this company and Country.
You only care about yourself!

- Mike

    Hey, you Ogre-type souls! you've got another supporter! Business is
    business and the only compassion a company need give to anyone is a
    paycheck.  All the "bennies" they throw in are good for good times
    when everyone can spend and some people are able to have a year's
    finances put away (much like DEC DID have).
    
    Treat people good, and you get treated good: no arguement from me, but
    please stop looking at me to take care of you're (collective you)
    probelms.  We're all in this together, but ultimately we have only each
    other to look out for as well as those who are closest and dearest to
    us.
    
    Treat people badly, and expect the same: again, no argument from me-
    just keep taking away all the "bennies" we've grown so accustomed to
    that everyone thinks is owed to them, keep charging me more for medical
    benefits, keep yanking the rug out fom under my feet everytime I feel
    like I'm standing up straight.
    
    We and our lives are what we create, no one has done that for us.  If
    s**t hits the fan and my job is gone, I'm ready to move on.  I have no
    idea what I'll be doing, but I won't wither away.  I've had so much
    pain and loss in my life, that loss of a job is nothing compared to
    the loss of the people that leave our lives.  And I might be a little
    be coarser because I've worked for everything I have and have  had
    hardly anything given to me.  A strong sense of worth, of purpose, of
    strength comes from a combination of all that's been mentioned.
    
    You can cry on myshoulder and I'll support you, but don't expect some 
    unrealistic and apologetic answer (everytime); I'm going to tell you
    what I feel and how I would go about correcting it- afterall, you came
    to me for my "help" and I'm only going to listen to it once- the next
    time you will get my opinion.  [all you's are collectively speaking,
    directed at no one in specific]
    
    Ogre.

re: .62

...whoa...if I understand .50 correctly, all he's trying to
get across is that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one
basket and that you shouldn't rely on anyone but yourself to
provide a living for you. You and your family are not Digital's
responsibility.

My personal opinion is that many people who are crying over 
their circumstances now, are those who never did anything to 
put themselves in a situation where their circumstances don't 
control them.


Dave

    Well, "I'm out for me and you're on your own" is one way of living
    your life.  A lot of people live that way.  "Survival of the fittest"
    and all that.  
    
    Question: is that the way we should *try* to live?  Assuming we all
    want a pleasant world to live in, is that kind of attitude conducive
    to producing a pleasant world?  I think not.
    
    Animals may live by "survival of the fittest," but people are
    (allegedly) civilized and can do better.  I want to live in a
    world where all people can live together in peace and harmony, and
    I see no way of achieving that except by looking out for each
    other.  

 Sorry, .62 should re .42, .50, and .55 
 
 You see, I've had this discussion with my wife, my friends, and associates.
 We have lost the "Family values"  (Sorry for the cliche). We've lost the
 spirit of teamwork, but most of all we've lost the spirit of America.
 (Sorry, I know this really belongs in soapbox) 

 I do believe in individuals, however, individuals alone can not solve
 some of the problems we face today as a company.  United we can conquer
 the industry, divided, we might as well file chapter 11 now.

 We got ourself into this mess of having to lay people off.  We can if we
 work together as a team bring this company to the forefront as it once was.
 But if we ignore the sense of compasion, and have the attitude to 
 "Do whats right" not whats in MY personal interest, we will rise from
 the ashes.

 Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox, besides, my database load completed and
 it's time to get back to work.

- Mike

    I look out for each other, I don't let anything bad happen to anyone
    else when I can see something horrible heading their way.  However,
    those people who just don't want to listen and just don't care anymore
    and all they want is for someone else to fix the problems for them-
    to hell with them, I say.  thta's where survival of the fittest and
    looking out for ourselves comes into play, in my book. I do my share
    to make it a "better place", but I'm not doing anyone else's share
    anymore.
    
    Ogre.

    
    Given the numbers announced this morning, mightn't it be better
    to get back on the topic?
    

    Well, as long as we've started down this rathole, I'll join in.
    
    At every level of organization of life, a balancing act between
    divisive and cohesive forces goes on.  People sometimes strike out
    following a different drummer and at other times, cling together for
    comfort.  That's all natural.  
    
    We have a tendency to see one of these directions as "good" and the
    other as "bad", but that is an illusion.  If you look hard, you can see
    examples of both individualism and collectivism which works to the
    detriment of the people involved.
    
    Individualism sometimes lets us think we aren't responsible for calling
    the police when we see violence being done.  
    
    Collectivism sometimes leads us to riot and ransack in the aftermath of
    tragedy.  
    
    Individualism sometimes turns into exploitation of others for personal
    benefit. 
    
    Collectivism sometimes becomes intolerance for persons of different
    racial, ethnic, gender, social, educational, intellectual, political,
    or religious origins. 
    
    We could fill out these lists interminably.  The point is that both
    individualistic and collectivistic impulses are natural.  Its up to us
    to judge which is most appropriate in which circumstances.  My
    observation is that extremes of either kind are counterproductive.
    
    Dick
    

    Bob,
    
    No offense ment I assure you.  My appologies.
    
    The point I was trying to make is that there are things that happen
    to people that are totally beyond their control.  And because of the
    way things work (insurance companies), these people would be in an
    even worse situation if they lost their job.
    
    Frankly, it is none of my, or the companies business HOW a person 
    becomes ill, whether it be AIDS, cancer, or whatever, and I don't 
    have a need to know.  Compassion, or caring for one another should
    not be based on how.
    
    Again, my appologies,
    
    ART
    
    

    THank you Art.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    RE: .67

    I really hope you remember these words you speak.... if (god forbid)
    you should end up on the receiving end of a "helping hand"... Because,
    despite your look at "the way things should be" and "survival of the
    fittest"..... There will be someone out there who will extend their
    hand to you..... even knowing your position on companion...

    PLEASE don't respond.... JUST THINK ABOUT IT..!

    I sometimes become self centered in my world... I also often feel real
    depressed about my present position... I could have done better, made
    better choices.... etc.... BUT.... feeling sorry for myself doesn't
    turn back the clock..... 

    The one thing in my life that brings me out of my slump and depression
    is being able to help someone else, who needs my help.. There is more
    to life than material wealth....

    I am mighty afraid that those with material well-being, but who lack
    the caring..., are the real poor people in this country..!

    PLEASE.... JUST THINK ABOUT IT...!

    When you "well to do" people give to charity (if you do), do you give
    in compassion of others.... or just because it will give you a tax break
    at the end of the year....! If the answer is the later, you people are
    the ones who are truly poor...!

    Those who can give themselves (compassion) to others, regardless of
    their monetary stature, give more richness then that of monetary
    wealth.. If those "well to do" can't even find it to show compassion
    then any monetary charity is worthless.

    This country needs more compassion and caring.. 
    
    Bob G.
    		TO QUOTE:
    
    
    
    "AMERICA NEEDS TO RETURN TO THE VALUES SCOUTING NEVER LEFT"!!!!!!!
    
    			AND
    
    "ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR
     YOUR COUNTRY"

    RE: My last (.72)
    
    >     hand to you..... even knowing your position on companion...
    							 ^^^^^^^^^^^^!
    					That is......... Compassion..!
    
    My sorries for that spelling blunder..!!
    
    Bob G.
    

    While this has moved off base (as is normal in NOTES files I guess)
    there's a couple of things being said that lead me to respond.
    The original noter had asked if anyone had heard a rumor, many
    responded with what they either had heard, or offered their 
    opinion on the subject. Someplace else along the line, someone
    flames up and shares his Opinion that everyone is all wet, and
    in essense said that such other opinions are sickening etc. etc.
    obviously a valuing system somewhat different there as what's
    being spouted is that opinion and telling everyone else how
    simple and offensive they are for having any other one! Again 
    though the base noter simply asked a question, which at some point
    in this note, it was determined that such questions cause illness
    in some folks!
    
    As to "survival of the fittest", I look around at how the human
    race ("the fittest in history to date") has managed to mess up
    a large portion of the planet, but that's okay because we're the fittest
    right? But we have advanced so far, that today we can blow the darn
    thing up all by ourselves. Survival of the fittest. As far as "taking
    care of yourself first" goes, that's sort of contradictory to what the
    Corporation is pushing as TEAMWORK. Those who "Take care of yourself
    first" may have difficulties fitting into the team. Teams composed
    of people who look out for number one, usually end up losing. Since
    the company is looking to be a team what's that say about where we're
    heading?
    
    When Digital becomes a place, where all that is owed is your paycheck
    then Digital loses in the long run. People tend to work even harder
    for something that they BELIEVE IN and FEEL PART OF. When it becomes
    "just a paycheck" then it becomes "Just a job" and most folks then
    look to management to make all decisions, give all directions and
    have all the visions. A point which to date hasn't really worked
    all that well for many companies nor does it have much successful 
    history at Digital for that matter. 
    
    Lastly, back to the basenoter, it doesn't sound as if that 
    voluntary package is going to be offered from the 70 some odd
    replies to date.
    
    -- Jon
      

    re: .68
    What numbers were announced this morning ?
    
    Am I missing something ?
    
    Could you elaborate on the numbers ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Vijay.

    re: .75
    
    Check out note 2156, Q1 loss
    

    I did think about it.
    
    I look out for me and mine and will look out for you and yours when
    you're around; however, I will not fix your problems for you- I have my
    own to fix first.  If I fall apart, well the teams effort will be
    severely affected.  If I can't fix mine, I can't fix the teams. 
    
    Teamwork?  I work as a team all the time, or so they tell me- I just
    have no freakin' idea of where the team is going.
    
    If someone ever wanted to give me a helping hand- I've never refused it,
    I've just never asked for it.  The point of compasion is knowing when
    to offer a helping hand and not just everytime someone begs.  A
    balancing act indeed, but I will only listen to the sob sorry for so
    long before I tell you how I would handle it.  If you don't want it
    fixed, stop bothering me with it.
    
    Ogre.

    Back to the "OPEN PACKAGE RUMOR" topic....
    
    If they have to continue laying off.... they SHOULD offer the package
    accross the board and shut the door once they've reached the desired
    number.....
    
    At that point.... they will have gotten rid of those who didn't want to
    stay.... They would have left, those who desire to stay... thus have
    the will to help the company recover....!!!
    
    IMO..!
    
    Bob G.
    

    -1...the only problem with that is the "dead-wood" which the
    company has been carrying for years...would stay!!  In my
    opinion DEC has not dealt with this issue at all...
    
    Sandy

    The door is always open for those who choose to leave.
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    I agree with .79, therefore I suspect any package offered will not be
    totally open, except in countries that this is required by law.
    
    It is possible and likely that the next package will be more open, but
    still hve restrictions on certain job codes.  Its also possible that
    the methods used for selection in the past may also change.

    
    re .79 -
    
    	This harkens back to the performance problem/disciplinary action
    cycle, that I personally have not seen work very well, unless a manager
    or managers had a real grudge against someone.
    
    As always, the above is IMHO.
    
    Java

    I have to agree that if we now opened the package to anyone, most of
    our good people (who wouldn't have such a hard time) would go, take the
    money and run and get another job leaving all the dead-wood, the SOURCE
    of MANY of our problems, here to run the company.

    that's not a nice thing to wish on management.  ;)

    Not the "dead wood" scenario again!!  The implication is that those
    being tapped are mostly "dead wood".  Anyone who believes this needs a
    good dose of reality.
    
    Tony

    do you have as much trouble reading for your job as you do reading
    NOTES?  .83 said the dead wood would be left, nothing there about it
    being tapped to leave.  Besides we all know that by in large the top
    5 levels are basically the same now as four years ago.

    i think an open enrollment for TSFO would be good, we can get rid of the
    good people and finally achieve the unstated goals of personnel to make
    this company as mediocre as it could through the policies it has
    implemented since 1982.

    Since there is no consensus on what skills we need, and no data on what
    skills we have, I see no objection to an open resignation period. 
    Naturally, since it is voluntary, there will be no TFSO.  TFSO was
    designed for (and should be limited to) INvoluntary separation.
    
    In fact, I am surprised that no one in management has said 
    
    	"Times are tough and getting tougher.  If you don't want to
    	 go thru the tough times that Digital is facing, take the 
    	 opportunity now to hunt for a job outside."
    
    Dick

A lot of people seem to think that if there were an "open" TFSO, mainly
the "good" people would leave. It's true that some good people would
leave, but many of the talented people I know wouldn't.

There's a growing concensus among these folks that there will be
significant positive change under Palmer, starting at the top. There's
also a happy anticipation of real reward for excellence.

People who have had a difficult time navigating absurd organizations
and policies to get constructive work done are beginning to find reason
for hope (for streamlining of process and recognition of contribution).

If these people are not yet excited, they are at least cautiously
optimistic. They're good, and they're not worried about getting
"unfairly" cut, because they know that, in any case, there are good
jobs outside waiting for them. And if they don't get cut, they're
looking at the prospect of Digital becoming an exciting place to work
again, and are beginning to dig into work with new enthusiasm.

If you hear a person say "if I were offered a package, I'd take it in a
minute", you're either listening to someone who knows they're a target
(because they're "deadwood"), and are hoping for some cash, or you're
listening to a talented person who hasn't yet realized just how good
Palmer's Digital may be for them.

    
 >==============================================================================
 >Note 2148.86                 Open Package Rumor                       86 of 88
 >SOLVIT::ALLEN_R "Is there profit in this?"          9 lines  15-OCT-1992 07:45
 >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >  do you have as much trouble reading for your job as you do reading
 >  NOTES?  .83 said the dead wood would be left, nothing there about it
 >  being tapped to leave.  Besides we all know that by in large the top
 >  5 levels are basically the same now as four years ago.
  -----------------------

    Dear Allen_R:

    Is your hostility an acquired trait, or were you born with it?  My
    reading ability is just fine, thank you.  My analytical ability is even
    better.  Apparently, my ability to extrapolate from one concept to
    another exceeds that of some.  

    When someone expresses the opinion that an open TFSO would result in
    the retention of "dead wood", it seems natural to interpret that as an
    expression of the opinion that the present TFSO does not result in the
    same problem.  In other words, the present TFSO results in the
    elimination of "dead wood".  I realize that this was not stated in the
    previous notes (which you didn't write, anyway).  I was merely
    attempting to point out the logic problem.

    Tony

    It would be nice if the rumor of an open package is true.  The way
    Digital is treating employees is "cruel and unusual punishment".  Not
    knowing from week to week when and who will tap you on the shoulder is
    not right.  When will senior management wakeup and learn to treat us
    like real people?  Let's get this over with so we can get on with our
    life and job.

    re: .88  -< good people are staying in droves >-
    
> If these people are not yet excited, they are at least cautiously
> optimistic. They're good, and they're not worried about getting
> "unfairly" cut, because they know that, in any case, there are good
> jobs outside waiting for them.
    
    This is a fairly naive view of things.  *Everybody* worries about
    being cut, no exceptions.  Whether you are the greatest or not,
    whether you have another job available, whatever your circumstances
    may be, being cut by your employer is a traumatic experience.  Being
    told that your services are no longer valued, facing your surviving
    compatriots, worrying about the effects on your family, all of these
    are serious downers.  There may be a new job waiting, but there are
    no guaratees that you won't have to relocate, or that the job won't
    work out somehow.
    
    In my opinion, the current package is the only thing that *keeps* the
    best in our company from proactively looking for another job.  Its a
    safety net against the possibility that, should the company not realize
    your true worth, and should you get caught in a senseless sweep, that
    you will have some time to find a good job elsewhere.  If there were
    no safety net, then you would be crazy not to put some effort into
    looking for another job *before* you get laid off.
    
>                                   And if they don't get cut, they're
> looking at the prospect of Digital becoming an exciting place to work
> again, and are beginning to dig into work with new enthusiasm.
    
    Forgive me for being negative, but the only enthusiasm I've seen lately
    is at the bar down the street from the office *after* work.  Morale at
    the offices I visit is at a ten-year low as near as I can tell.
    
    Geoff
    

    I personally know of of few individuals who were involuntarily TFSO'd
    that were excellent employees.  In fact, six months after one of these,
    the organization in question just filled an open req. for this one
    person's account.
    
    I think their would be a tendency in a voluntary package for more good
    employees to take the money and get a new job and the "deadwood" stay
    because they know in their hearts they have a hard time getting another
    job.
    
     

    
    Re: .50
    
    >In reference to the Ethiopians, two things.  First, we have deserts in 
    >America, but nobody lives there.  Nothing grow in the desert.
    >Secondly, they're not my problem.  Survival of the fittest.  Take care
    >of yourself by whatever means possible.  Business is business.  There
    >is no room for "compassion" in the business world.  That is what
    >charity organizations are all about.
    >You got a job.  do the job.  Get paid for the job.
    >If your company no longer needs you.  See you.  Sorry it sounds harsh,
    >but thats life.  It ain't no bed of roses.
    
    No, that is NOT life.  That is one way that because of certain
    political and economic systems that some people choose to treat each
    other.  There is no natural law that requires that things be that way
    but lots of laws made by greedy, uncaring, men to ensure that things
    will operate that way so they can stay on top.
    
    Life CAN be much different from your description if people choose it
    to be different.
     
    Steve
    
    

    
    Re: .55
    
    You statements remind me of an old saying that has proven itself
    true to me many times:  "You reap what you sow."
    
    You might want to reflect on this a bit.
    
    Steve
    

    Heartlessness, Ethiopia, sophomoric morals and ethics discussions ... I
    really think the right place for this may be SOAPBOX, especially if you
    enjoy spirited if sometimes brutal debate.
    
    Now, "open packages", that belongs here. Can we stay on the topic,
    please?
    
    Just MHO 

    RE: 2148.80
    
    > "The door is always open for those who choose to leave."
    
    BUT..... if this is "only business" and "not personal" than people
    should play Digital for all they can get.... after all, that is what
    DEC would have done to those it lets go.... Use until no longer needed,
    then toss them out....
    
    So, those who'd like to go should hang in there for a package. "Use
    them (DEC) until no longer needed, then jump off the boat".
    
    "After all, it is just business.... right...."
    
    If it "isn't personal" then no one should object to those who hang on
    for any cash they can collect.... If you think this is wrong, then you
    have just turned it into something personal....
    
    It's either Digital shows compassion to employees and visa-versa, which
    would mean, Digital let people leave with a package (volunterily) and
    with GREAT SPEED.... OR they treat it like a business... and the
    employees does the same..... MILK IT FOR WHAT THEY CAN...!!
    
    Remember the "golden rule"....
    
    	Treat others as you would want them to treat you...!
    
    

Could we perhaps stop using loaded terms like "deadwood"?  They merely obscure
the issue and substitute emotion for sensible discussion.

The problem with a voluntary severence plan is the the people most likely to 
take it are those who are the most mobile.  Why are they mobile?

	They are the top producers in their specialty.

	They are in an area important to many companies so that experienced
	people are in relatively short supply.


Those in the "most likely to remain" group are not "deadwood".  They are people.
They are people who:

	Are often performing tasks that would bore the superstars to death, but
	which are, nevertheless, essential to the succes of the project/product/
	process.  I know for sure that if I had to do every last part of a 
	project, it would most likely never be finished.

	Are working very hard and doing a very good job at things the company
	used to think it wanted done.  It is unfair to blame the people teaching
	tha "basketweaving" courses for the existence of the course.  At some
	point in time, somebody in this company offered them a good salary to 
	teach "basketweaving".

A a result, a voluntary program is almost always counterproductive.  It lets 
senior management once more avoid the necessary decisions regarding what is
and is not necessary to the future of the company, and it may well leave 
behind the people that a well thought-out program would eliminate first.


\dave

    I don't know about the current situation since the company has been
    agressively reducing headcount, but for many years, DEC has had a
    it's fair share of folks who got "DEC-fired" (put on special projects due 
    to poor performance).  There has been 'real' deadwood in this firm's 
    headcount; I don't know it it's still around, but when politics prevail, 
    deadwood can float......
    
    IMHO

    re: the last few...
    
    It is also seriously counter-productive (if the USSR were still around
    we could send counter-productive types to Siberia, but now...?) to
    randomly terminate by percentages.  
    
    You lose as many people from the 'today's great product' division as
    from the buggy whip division.  The remaining people, especially when
    the layoffs are as long and drawn out as these ones - and as obviously
    ineffective.
    
    As to 'don't take it personally'.  Maybe when you get that other job
    you should arrange for a one-month wait before starting and insult your
    manager until he/she packages you.
    
    Hard lines for hard times, perhaps.
    
    
    Don