Conference 7.286::digital

    
    And another thing.  These programs are wastes of money.  Ask any
    salesrep if he'd quit if these were abolished.
    
    -Ed
    

    Passed over again, eh, Ed ?
    
    .. me, too ..
    
    karl, UNIX* Partner

    I wrote a paper for my bachelor's research project on this very
    subject.  The conclusions basically said that there's nothing wrong
    with having a program, just how it's implemented...
    
    I did a survey of field sales support and customer services folks, and
    I received a *LOT* of commentary from field-types when they found out it
    wasn't a survey being conducted by personnel or management...
    
    Was an interesting experience I will never have to repeat, thank
    goodness!
    
    Incentives are good, can have a definite positive effect on a business,
    but can also be a waste of time, effort and $$$ if improperly
    implemented.  

Before we get to the contingent which supports the other side of this coin
(i.e. "these are necessary programs"), input from those of us not in the field
isn't welcome again, right?

:^)
-Jack

Re: .0

The problem here is, we sometimes compete with each other outside our units, 
districts, etc.  How can I justify the fact that our unit deserved an award if 
we fell $X short because some other organization took $X+1 from us?  We should 
be goaled as a company, that way we all pull together.

Re: .4

There has been an ongoing debate about how to reward sales support after they 
were pulled from PSS to sales.  I don't understand why any group should be 
rewarded for their efforts above the others.  Engineering develops, sales 
sells, and the field supports. If we make our budget (account, region,
country, corporate) we all share in the fruits of our success.

I know sales doesn't get commissions, the field is paid below market, etc.  So 
resolve all that, and give EVERYONE cash.

    
    If there are no clear guidelines or delineated attainment paths
    for incentive programs, they can be as much demotivators as they
    are motivators.  
    
    

Rrrrrrr...

Don't Even Start with DEC 100.  Two years ago, I was told I was
going to Hawaii, and about a three weeks before, they told me there
was a misunderstanding on ho many people were going.  Meanwhile I told
family and friends I was going, do you know how embarassing it was to
tell them it was a mistake.  

- Mike

    
    	re. .9
    
    	I can imagine how you felt after being told that you would go,
    	then....and also, how your SO must have felt! 
    
    	There is a similar award "process" in the training department,
    	though the carrot isn't quite as big as in sales. The rationale
    	behind the way the winners are selected still escapes me, however,
    	even though I've been in this group for 5 years.

    What about the admin people?  A specialist returning from Hawaii last 
    year told me he thought that if a manager was selected to Circle of 
    Excellence, then his secretary should go too.  After all, that admin
    support had to have something to do with his/her achievements?
    
    TK

    Re: .12
    
    I'm not sure about Circle of Excellence, but I know tht secretaries are
    not allowed to attend DEC100 - even if a sales rep wants to invite them
    as a guest.  My guess is that COE operates in much the same way.
    
    Sarah

    Would you rather have DEC100 or cash! Give me cash any day.  I have
    been to 3 DEC100's and to Hawaii for COE.  What I found at the DEC100
    was that it was a party for the managers, not the individual
    contributor.  It was centered around a place that the sales management
    wanted to go, and the things that the sales management wanted to do.  I
    would rather have received 1/2 of the money spend and had a good time
    with my family rather than be around the people I see everyday. 
    Besides, I don't do golf!
    
    When I went to COE at first I was excited, but then I realized that it
    was a little luck, and a lot of hard work that got me there.  What I
    expected to see was the individual contributors that were the top 10
    percent of the sales force in attendance.  What did I find, some of the
    top 10% of the sales force and a lottttttttttt of MANAGERS!!!!! not
    even sales managers.  How did they earn the carrott! Did they earn the
    carrott, I don't think so.  The people that they managed did a great
    job so they received all of the benefits and people wonder why the
    worker bee's are not willing to give 100%, its because in this company
    it is not the individual contributor that gets the reward, it the
    manager that might not even understand the job they are in.
    
    Get rid of DEC100 and COE, my vote absolutely!!! I believe it could be
    replaced with a Christmas bonus for the individual contributor and a
    reward for the top 10% of sales and sales support, a trip to a nice
    place (Hawaii) and only the managers that directly contributed to the
    effort, ie... were voted in by the sales and sales support reps.  This
    would also drastically reduce our expenses, we could probably save
    only 300M or so, but then what would we do with the managers!!!
    
    DEC100 for sale, 21K , spend time with your favorite
    manager, go golfing, banquets and more.  call now, limited suppy
    
    TA

    re: .14  "Party for the managers, not the contributors ..."
    
    You're right on the button with this!  Both the COE's and DEC100's
    I've been to were nothing more than smooze-fests for the managers
    involved.  They reminded me of the stereotyped "Cocktail Parties"
    where everyone kisses up to the boss, and you (and your spouse)
    are evaluated for your "social" eligibility in the management ranks.
    It's gotten worse in recent years, where the scene for the occasion
    turns out to be the VP's favorite golf course, and the managers all
    disappear days before the event to "check it out".
    
    COE and DEC100 Hah!  They aren't awards anymore, they're tax burdens!
    Give us hard cash money for PERFORMANCE, and stop the beauty contests!
    
    Geoff
    

    Well, Gee, I guess things haven't changed since 1986 when the Target
    Sales Force badly messed the bed.   Now here we had an organization
    that totally failed from a business standpoint, yet every manager
    and secretary, and a small cadre of "favorites" went off on a DEC100
    cruise to the Bahamas.  Reminded me of some of those scenes you
    see on the old movies of the last parties of the Nazi's as the
    Rooskies were closing in on Berlin.  Oh, BTW, the favorites did not
    necessarily need to have sold anything.  The key criteria was being
    a "team player".                                           

Well, until our sales force even has the opportunity to make $200-300K like 
our peers at Sun and other companies, the DEC100 and COE awards ARE incentives. 

In our District, they polled everyone in selecting the DEC100 location. And 
having been fortunate enough to spend a week in Palm Springs last fall with my 
wife, I am certainly incented to work my butt off to qualify for this year's 
COE.

Aloha,

Jim

    "Incented" as a verb.  Wonderful!  I hadn't seen that one before.

    Incented?!?!?
    This industry is killing the language.
    
    Tim

    Some may be incented, but others are incensed.
    

I am a Sales Support person.   What do I have to do to win COE?

Bob

    > I am a Sales Support person.   What do I have to do to win COE?
    
    Schmooze, self promote, play golf, kiss up, be a "team player".
    Be the guy to convinces some other poor schmuck to pull an "all nighter"
    and then accept the credit for making it happen.
    
    The first step is to buy a nice suit.
    
    -Ed
    

    > I am a Sales Support person.   What do I have to do to win COE?
    >
    >Schmooze, self promote, play golf, kiss up, be a "team player". Be the
    >guy to convinces some other poor schmuck to pull an "all nighter" and
    >then accept the credit for making it happen.
    > 
    >The first step is to buy a nice suit.
    
    I realize that the author of this is in Sales Support and that fairness
    is never perceived to be 100% but, in fairness to the person asking the
    original question, award is tied to the contributors to the success of
    the most significant business in a particular account group. I have
    tremendous respect for some of the sales support people supporting my
    account. In some cases, the Sales Support person should have been the
    primary nominee as opposed to the Sales Rep.
    
    Get yourself known to account management. Make sure your efforts are in
    support of the account's objectives (not your personal goals..in spite
    of what your opinions are). Help make that account successful with a
    major win. An account manager isn't "God" and sometimes he's dead wrong
    with regard to business success. IN this case, you have to "sell" your
    position on the right thing to do. Of course, if he/she's wrong, they
    won't ever end up in COE either.
    
    Nice suit's are not a prerequisite in my opinion. When there's a
    customer event that the account team (which includes Sales Support)
    deems dressing up, I would expect that an individual would support
    this...you don't have to rent a tux, just be neat.

    Having come out of account management, I think .23 had it closer to the
    truth than .24.  

    I would tend to lean toward .23 as well.... The unfortunate thing about
    it all is.... instead of sale/sales support fixing the problem (I think
    it is a problem), the rest of the company is addopting the .23 style.
    
    My opinion.!
    
    Bob G.
    

    I can only speak from first-hand knowledge of my account group, both as
    a decision-maker for the last three years and as one who observed the 
    selection process from the viewpoint of an individual contributor for
    the several years previous.
    
    .23 is bullshit.
    
    Al
    

The first, and only time I heard of CoE before this note was when I was over at
a friend's house, and she showed me a video of her trip (last year??) on CoE.

Pretty lavish stuff.

Well, I started getting sore over how I never pulled a junket like that.  Before
I got too far down that alley of self pity, I stopped to think of my 
contributions to the company (good, but not great) and her contribution to the
company (designing multi-million dollar networks and selling them to our 
customers), and I decided that she just might have deserved it.

Seriously, there may be some fulltime schmoozers that go on these junkets, and
for all I know, they might even constitute the majority.  On the other hand, the
only person I ever met who was a recipient of this award, in my opinion, 
deserved at least that, and maybe a little more.

Sitting back and reading these notes makes me wildly suspicious of the whole 
thing.  Checking with my admittedly small sample of "award winners", I'd have
to say it's 100% on the money.

In the end, my only complaint is that maybe it shouldn't be so all or nothing.
Seems like you either get the Junket From the Heavens, or you get nothing.  I'd
like to think there'd be some middle ground.

    Re: .27
    
    I have worked in sales support for 7 years and .23 is not bullsh*t.
    Politics rule heavily in sales. I don't play golf and never plan to and
    I know it has cost me major points.
    
    Ed
    
    Who doesn't care if he ever plays golf.

.28> I'd like to think there'd be some middle ground.
    
    	Like commission, maybe?

I hear:
The COE system isn't fair
The COE awards don't always go to the best people
The COE awards aren't administered consistently

As a manager, who won COE once, and someone who gets to nominate winners, I've
always been torn by this issue. I believe we need to reward excellent behavior.
COE might not even be the best mechanism to reward excellent performance.
Developing and executing an objective fair selection process for COE is
fraught with impossibilities. 

Examples:
1.
	Person A wins COE many times for group X by overachieving goals and
	metrics.
	Person A transfers to group Y.
	Group Y has a cadre of top performers making person A's relative
	contribution less than stellar.
	Now person A may never win COE again or must reach new heights relative
	to others to win.

2.	Person A wins COE many times for group X by schmoozing management.
	Person A transfers to group Y.
	Group Y management doesn't play golf and sees an average performer in
	person A.
	Person A does not win COE again, but creates havoc by escalating
	up the management chain because they are being treated "unfairly".		

3.	Group Y has many EXCELLENT performers but you can only send z% of
	the group to COE each year.
	Do you, as the manager, rotate who gets to go every year?
	Do you, as the manager, choose not to participate at all to make
	sure everyone gets treated the same?
	Do you, as the manager, spend tremendous amounts of energy fighting
	up the chain of command to allow ALL of your EXCELLENT group members
	to go to COE?

4. 	Group Y has many very good performers.
	Group Y has one or two EXCELLENT performers.
	Group Y sends the one or two EXCELLENT performers to COE every year.
	Group Y's very good performers get demoralized and stop being very
	good performers.

5,6,7...

There are no easy answers to this problem. There are no answers that will
please everyone. Positive suggestions are VERY WELCOME. I'm sure DELTA would
welcome them as well.

Terry

    Any awards system is meant to encourage specific behaviors.  The
    problem with COE as it applies to Sales Support is the criteria change
    each and every year.  So what works once may not work again.  
    
    There are NO objective criteria for winning COE.  Okay, one.. your
    account team better blow out their budget by a significant margin.. so
    Sales' criteria is fairly simple.  Support ?  Well... see # .23.  It's
    ENTIRELY POLITICAL.  
    
    karl, winner of two Software Services Excellence Awards 

    Background: Sales Support for 5 years
    COE History: Never
    Performance: 1/2 every year
    Budget: Unit made budget every year but one
    
    .23 is right on.
    
    Anyone who thinks otherwis is either from management, or has won COE.
                                                   
    
    BTW: One winner was TFSO'd last year.
    
    FJK
    
    P.S. In the past five years only once did I see someone who did not
    fall into .23 way of thinking win, he was long overdue.

    I am not in Sales or Support, but I have been in organizations that
    offered awards of one type or another, and I believe that:
    
    1. This sort of thing can never be really fair. Some people will always
    have an advantage over others due to the effort they are involved in,
    the people working with them, personality issues, etc.
    
    2. For every person that receives an award, several others will feel 
    cheated. The net effect on morale is inevitably bad.
    
    
    Hillel
     

    Seems to me that the variety of opinion on this reflects the fact that
    COE winners are chosen by local management, and the fairness or lack
    thereof is a reflection of the quality of local management.

    What I can't understand about those junkets is all the corporate types,
    who bring their SO to the event, and they aren't even in sales or sales
    support. I think the incentive programs should be re-examined.
    tjk

    background:  10 years in SWS/Sales Support/DS
    COE:  "Nominated" maybe 4-5 times, gone once
    
    Several people have made the point that COE *can't* be awarded fairly
    for several different reasons in the last four or five notes, and I
    agree with many of them.
    
    Several other people have made the point that COE *isn't* awarded
    fairly for reasons of politics and personality, and I agree will
    *all* of them.  The one time I went to COE, it was seemingly packed
    with sycophants who treated the affair as a way to cozy up to top
    management.  My own award that year was somewhat puzzling, because
    while I had had a good year, it was nothing like the previous *great*
    year (nor did I win on the following *great* year) ...
    
    All of these issues seem to indicate that COE is *not* a proper
    motivator, and other means should be found to reward significant
    contributors to the Company's success.  I grant that alternative
    methods (like hard cash) can also be abused, but at least it will
    not be such a public slap in the face like the COE seems to be.
    
    Geoff Unland
    

    
    I've known 2 COE winners since I've been with DEC. Both were exactly
    as described in .23
    
    Pathetic...
    
    
    P.S. I'm not in sales or sales support so it ain't sour grapes
    
    

    If I remember correctly ... about 7 or 8 years ago a "field" survey was
    taken.  The gist was something along the lines of "Is the DEC 100 event
    an incentive for you?"  The answer came back (I think) about 70% "no".
    
    My wife *hated* to go to DEC 100 events ... for all practical purposes
    attendance was mandatory.

Bubba

    My husband and I have been with DEC for almost 10 years now.  Last year
    he won his first COE type award-the VAX9000 Club award - also in Palm
    Springs the week after COE. ( I should mention that my husband has been
    a 1 or 2 performer in Customer Service for 10 years)  The week 
    we were there was almost a carbon copy of COE from what we heard.  
    $$$$$$ was flowing ever so freely it was hard to believe we were at a 
    DEC event. We were happy to go at first, but then the 2nd TFSO took place 
    only weeks prior to the event and believe me, we would have given up 
    the week to save someone's job.
    
    The amazing part (among others!) was that there were several people at
    the event who were TFSO'd and were highly regarded! We spent one bizarre
    morning listening to Zereski talk about how wonderful the 9000
    product was, and how it was here to stay! My husband and I thought he
    must be living in another world....(Corporate!). 
    
    Many of the sales reps at the event were in Palm Springs for their 
    second week - since they also attended COE.  From personal experience
    I can say that I would rather get a bonus or a pay increase than
    have the corporation plan a week's vacation for me.
    
    FWIW - Elizabeth
                              

Re : .-1    

>    The amazing part (among others!) was that there were several people at
>    the event who were TFSO'd and were highly regarded! We spent one bizarre
>    morning listening to Zereski talk about how wonderful the 9000
>    product was, and how it was here to stay! My husband and I thought he
>    must be living in another world....(Corporate!). 
 
Well, I guess that their job is to promote Corporate flagship (9000),at least
it was at one time, doesn't it ?? Although, every magazine, external consultant
or commentator already mentioned it's big mistake of our management, we just
don't admit it, that's all. (There's article about DEC in latest Digital News)

If mgt mentioned anything negative in events like COE, you are dame sure it 
will appear in N.Y Times, Wall St. Journal the next day. The guy will grave
his own career. Living in another world is fine, as long as it's wonderland
for the person.

Those V.P's who voiced high and have different opinions are gone (either
voluntarily or forcedly by the stream). I no longer know who is right, or
who's wrong until the dust settle down. 

For Japanese mgt, if their corporation loss money, they admit the mistake,
and take the hit by cutting their own salary. For American CEO, it's another
20% increase annually because inflation catch up. Sigh, when we will learn 
that worker bee is the assets of corporation ,not liability. 

IMHO
Michael...                              

RE: .42

>    In regards to sales - Digital
>    is not like other sales organizations.  Digital doesn't pay
>    commissions and has no understanding that people get into sales not to
>    be the brunt of positive or negative issues.  Sales people sell to make
>    MONEY.  We are in sales, or sales support, at Digital for another
>    purpose...to sell good products and services but can't expect that the
>    'perks' will make up for the lack of financial potential that could be
>    earned at another company.
    
I thought I might add one of Digital's negative motivational methods.
Suppose you are a sales rep and in the last weeks of the fiscal you've
done really well.  You've already made all the bonuses you can possibly
make.

The district is $200,000 of budget and you have a deal that could bring
in $300,000 if you busted your balls.  Now ask youself if I were a sales
rep:

1) What incentive do I have to bring in the sale this year?

and most importantly...

2) If I bring in the sale this year and I am $10 behind on budget next
year who will remember the $300,000 sale that saved the day last year
(or even yesterday)?

>The district is $200,000 of budget and you have a deal that could bring
>in $300,000 if you busted your balls.  Now ask youself if I were a sales
>rep:
>1) What incentive do I have to bring in the sale this year?

    You mean besides the incessant pressure from management to drag in
    every possible cent THIS year ?  Blowing out ones' budget means a
    greater possiblity of earning COE.  ;-)
    
    Of course you end up eating all of next Q1's backlog, which leads to.. 

>2) If I bring in the sale this year and I am $10 behind on budget next
>year who will remember the $300,000 sale that saved the day last year
>(or even yesterday)?
    
    Easy.. I've seen it over and over and over again - THEY WON'T !!!
    
    So, kids, resist the pressure and JUST SAY NO
    
    karl

    Welllll.... It will be interesting to see how things works out for this
    year's COE since the hurricane IKINI (sp?) hit Kauai yesterday with
    it's impacy point very close to the Hyatt Regency COE location.
    Hopefully people's expectations won't be blasted as hard as the island
    if this causes logistical problems due to severe damage (an unknown at
    this writing) that may have been incurred at the facility. Whether you
    agree with COE as legit, it is at least obvious that not getting an
    expected award - after you already know you have been approved - could
    become less than an inspirational experience and add fuel to the fire
    of the daily mounting frustration. We shall see..

    
    re.45
    	I doubt that a COE Award winner would view actions taken, as a 
    result of a "natural disaster" as adding fuel to the fire. I believe
    most people are understanding, and maybe personally affected, by the
    recent tropical storms. There are more important things in life than
    monetary rewards, and I believe (at least I want to) that most people
    view things in the proper perspective.
    
    
    			fred deady
    			wbc::deady

    I couldn't resist. COE for 1989 (I think) was a Carribean cruise. The
    cruise went through just after Hurricane Hugo (3 weeks?) . Hmmm...
    
    re: last few

    
    RE: .45
    
    > hurricane IKINI (sp?) hit Kauai yesterday with
    > it's impacy point very close to the Hyatt Regency COE location.       
    
    	The Hyatt chain has many hotels in Hawaii - 2 years ago COE was
    held at the Hyatt Regency Waikaloa on the island of Hawaii.  The staff
    talked as if DEC came there every 2 years.  Why did you think it would
    be on Kauai this year?  I'm sure even if it was, Hyatt would be busy
    rearranging _all_ their guest reservations to be in 'open' hotels.
    
    	They're not DEC, ya know ;^)
    JN

    I just read a memo from mgmt which indicated that the hotel where COE
    was planned was too badly damaged to have COE there this year.  They
    are finding a similar facility in Hawaii.
    
    The memo indicated that the new location would be every bit as good as
    what was planned.
    
    With the poor economy leading to lots of vacancies in posh resorts, I
    bet they'll bring this off successfully.

    I think cash incentives tied to your organizational goals is a lot
    better motivator and more fairly applied.  If the entire organization
    has the same goals, you work better as a team and pitch in to cover
    whenever someone's out sick, etc.  Your goals are pre-set and you know
    ahead of time what you have to do to receive your award.  It is totally
    objective, not subjective.  I've seen this before and it worked
    tremendously (outside DEC).
    
    By the way, I've proposed this as a possible method and all I heard is
    that we don't have the dollars to commence this method.  
    
    I believe like a few previous noters who mentioned that instead of
    having a DEC100 or COE type event, give us the cash!.!

    I heard yesterday from someone who reckons that our country/regional
    management get to attend COE regardless. Their "job", he said, was to
    host the proud winners and encourage them to repeat performance.
    
    If its true, then it maybe an inappropriate use of money. People should
    only go to COE who are winners, not their managers (and esp not when
    our last years FY results were not "winning"). By all means send the
    winners, but not managers. 

    I have heard that GIA's version of COE has been cancelled for next
    year.  This year's event will still happen.  True?  If so, what about
    Europe?  U.S.?

    As long as Europe keeps making money don't expect it to be cancelled.

    re: .46 - the point of my note - .45 was to comment on the hope that
    a cancellation or postponement of the COE event would doubtless be a
    disapointment to those going, and that - considering the recent
    increase in discouraging events - TSFO's of friends, low stock price,
    flat sales, etc. ad nauseum, the issue becomes emotional. In spite of 
    the fact that all can clearly understand a hurricane has seperate origins 
    from the normal class of problems affecting DEC these days, most people
    are not Spock or Mr. Data, and eventuially can become discouraged by a
    compilation of even "unassociated" events. 

    re: .48 - it was INIKI so my spelling was off, don't confuse me w/ Mr.
    Quayle ;-). The original location was Kauai and the new one is on the
    big island. Being originally from Hawaii, I follow Hawaiian events with
    more than casual interest.