Conference 7.286::digital

    My group had the same problem in TTB.....even had to put up signs.
    
    You can try yelling at them and embarassing them, but usually these
    kind of people are too ignorant for that to work.
    
    Try unplugging the headset and put it in your drawer.
    
    As far as using a terminal is concerned....that's a real violation of
    privacy, not to mention security.  I'd report the clown to Security.

    I can sympathize with both parties having had an office near a confer-
    ence room and having traveled to numerous other sites for meetings.
    
    The general problem is the lack of availability of phones and terminals
    in the vicinity of conference rooms.  Do you really want a sales rep to
    fail to return calls because he can not use a phone in an unoccupied
    office!  If the person needs a terminal or a phone, which is not
    otherwise in use, to conduct ligitimate business for this corporation,
    who are you to deny them that right!  Since when is the phone or the
    terminal the exclusive property of any individual or group within the
    company.  The attitude which says I have my office and my resources and
    you will leave them alone is not conducive to the team work necessary
    to deliver solutions to our customers.  This does not excuse people
    being rude and failing to ask to use something which is obviously not
    paid for by their cost center.  The obvious but rarely provided
    solution is to have a designated area in the building with phones and
    terminals to make business calls and check electronic mail when you
    are away from your local site.  Then the people who now have signs
    saying don't use my stuff can put up signs directing people to the
    site support location and its phones and terminals.
    
    Isn't there another note in here discussing the use of conference rooms
    by people from other sites....  Some people seem to reinforce the atti-
    tude that its us against the rest of the company, we had to fight for
    our space, our terminals, our phones, etc... and we aren't going to
    spend any of our budget making it easier for other groups to do their
    work.  The NMS will probably reinforce this behaviour as each group
    tries to cut its expenses so that it can show a profit.  Some buildings
    have eliminated phones in the lobby and hallways which were used by
    visitors to make business calls (and probably personal calls as well)
    in the cost cutting fervor which has struck a few managers.  These are
    often the same places were signs state that you are not to use phones
    in individual offices for any purpose, so how are you to conduct
    business away from your own office, leave the building to find the
    nearest public telephone (:-<), violate the possible privacy of a
    person who is nowhere in sight (:-<), or ask around until you find a
    kind person who hasn't been instructed to tell you take a hike (:->).
    
    Exactly what do you gain by making it difficult for other Digital
    employees to conduct their business, and why do you think you should
    be rewarded for doing so!  If the information on your terminals is
    so sensitive it can not be seen by other digital employees, then I
    certainly hope you take the precaution of blanking out the screen
    every time someone walks by or steps in to say hi, of course your
    productivity might be less than desirable.  I would work real hard
    to have the conference room moved, or to have the facility provide
    the phones and terminals close enough to the conference room to 
    eliminate the need for conference room users coming to my office to
    use the phone.  Isn't it cheaper to stick a few phones in the confer-
    rence room or a cubicle just outside the conference room, then to have
    people wandering about the building trying to find a phone to use?
    
    If we keep trying to save money by making it harder for people who
    are not part of our group to do their job, will the corporation save
    any money in the process?
    
    

    There is a conference room right outside my cubical. Other groups
    use it a lot. They also help themselves to our phones quite often.
    The sign management hung on my phone suggests they use the
    phones in the conference room or the lobby that are provided for
    them.

    If people have asked I have never turned down a request to make a
    DTN call on my line. Outside calls bother me a bit more. I would not
    like to see a sales call go unreturned because someone could not
    use my phone *but* I'd also hate not to be able to do my job because
    my CC ran out of money paying other peoples bills.

    And people using my phone when I'm not here is not my big gripe. It's
    those people who come in, make themselves at home and then expect me
    to wait outside my own office while they finish their leisurely call.

    As for:

>    who are you to deny them that right!  Since when is the phone or the
>    terminal the exclusive property of any individual or group within the
>    company.  

    Not exclusive property but in general people who pay for something
    get to say how it's used. My management pays for my phone and money
    that someone else spends means less for us to do our job. Perhaps
    we need an easy cross charge method to allow people to use other
    peoples phones. This would go a long way toward keeping the finance
    people happy and also help make people aware of the value of other
    peoples resources.

    The one area that we as a company should still do a lot more on
    is making visitor terminals more available. I can easily live without
    a phone at a different site if I can log in to check my mail. I
    generally pause my workstation when I leave my desk even for a minute.
    But if people ask I have often let them set host from my system
    while I was there. That actually seems more reasonable then asking
    for the phone. 

    			Alfred

About 2 years ago planning was underway for the facility move at my site
here in the Field. I made a suggestion to the facility manager to include
a small room with a couple of terminals and phones so that employees
visiting from other facilities would have a place to check mail and make
calls.

The suggestion was not acted upon because such a room didn't 'fit the
mold' of how facilites are designed- in essence, it had not been done
before so it could not be done now. Catch 22.

Lee

I have not seen this problem at ZKO.  We have both DTN phones and terminals
in every lobby.  That may contribute to it not being a problem.  I think part
of it may also be cultural.  I would consider it the height of rudeness to use
somebody's office terminal without asking permission first--you never know when
you might be disturbing some rather elaborate test environment that the person
may have spent hours or even days setting up.  If you only use terminals for
mail, notes, etc., the perspective on such things might be different.

--PSW

    PSW,
    
    	I spent the last 2 years working at ZKO and it was a big problem
    for us.
    
    	I think that the key work you used was rudeness.  I very clearly
    remember being asked by a member of another group (not from ZKO) if he
    could use the phone.  It was a very polite request and I helped him
    find a office where he could use the phone.  The person was very
    reasonable in his mannor and use of the phone.
    
    	HOWEVER, it then became a free-for-all with the others in that
    group.  They were noisy to the extent that those in the adjoing cubes
    could not work.  They started conducting their conversations in the
    aisles around that cube.  When I asked them to hold it down, they
    became quite rude.  I escalated the problem to my manager and he
    recieved the same treatment.
    
    	BTW, the first line is always that this is DEC and these facilites
    are everyones.  Well I agree with an earlier reply, it may all be DEC
    property, but we were paying the bills out of our cost center not only
    for the office mentioned but for the conference room as well.
    
    	Our solution was to make sure that that group's manager was
    notified and to refuse to let them use the room again.
    
    	To me it is simple, it is all how you treat each other, it is not
    who pays the bill.
    
    	And at the risk of catching a lot of heat here, I will generalize
    and point out that the majority of the problem I saw like this came
    from members of the same function at DEC.
    
    								Mel

    I would not allow anyone in my office without my approval first....I
    don't care who they are, My office has "MY" name on it....My phone
    Desk and anything else in there is MINE (until I'm told otherwise
    by my boss). If we were to allow anyone in these areas as RE:2 suggests
    then why bother having offices.....I allowed a Dec person to use
    my phone once (he said it was a quick call) I had to go do somthing
    at the time. I came back in 10 min. and he was still on the phone,
    I had people trying to get hold of me(hmmmm maybe that's why my
    name is listed with that phone #????) Then he ask if I could leave
    because it was a private call......I kindly told him no and that
    I needed my office back to do work.....I work in Security and I
    know that many people "DO NOT" log off there systems and "DO NOT"
    lock there desk......They often times leave Confidential material
    on there desk.....To many time things come up missing....If there
    are not enough phones at a certain site, then that's a problem between
    that persons mang. and the site.....not mine.......If you find somebody
    in "YOUR" office let your security dept. know about it.........
    
                                           Bob

Have security (to give it credence) put a notice in the conference rooms along
the lines of anyone entering offices, using telephones and or terminals
without expressed permission, will be escorted from the building. Also point
out the public terminals/phones in this memo.

q

    As noted a few back, the underlying problem is one of design. 
    Conference rooms in DEC facilities are designed as though they were for
    the sole use of the adjacent work group, with virtually no thought
    given to the needs of "visitors", whether from other facilities or 
    just from the other end of the building.  What sort of needs?

    1.	Phones.  Enough phones to permit essential calls to be made during
    	breaks.
    2.	Terminals.  
    3.	Some place to hang coats.
    4.	A secretary/receptionist to take phone messages and provide meeting
    	support.

    Perhaps we need to distinguish between smaller conference rooms, which
    might be the "private property" of a particular group, and the larger
    conference facilities.  The latter should be grouped into a facility
    conference center with the above issues addressed.  It would certainly
    reduce the sort of difficulties being discussed in this topic while
    making things a good deal more pleasant for visitors.

    -dave

    MKO2 on the other hand, being built primarily for marketing (at the
    time), has a telephone in just about every conference room.
    
    In ZKO every conference room has the phone jack on the wall, but
    no telephone plugged into it.  (Bring your own?)
    
    Also in MKO no group owns its own conference room.  They are *all* in
    the on-line reservation system, except for a few that you have to
    reserve in person from the conference-room people (typically the
    very large rooms).  This probably also means that calls made on those
    phones get charged to the conference-room group, not what ever cost
    center is near the room.

    When I was a secretary this used to happen all the time.  AFter
    being bawled out once or twice for leaving a dept. phones ringing 
    while someone used my phone, without my permission, I gave my group 
    a choice.  I could be quiet and polite and let the "cuckoo" use my 
    phone and the dept. phones would have to take their chances, or I 
    could be direct and rude and disconnect the "cuckoo" by putting my 
    finger on the phone rest and nicely ask them to leave.  However,
    if that "cuckoo" complained I didn't want to hear about it.

    
    
    
    	I used to work on a project with export controls as a consequence
    	much of the code and associated documents were off limits to
    	unauthorized people whether they were DEC employees or not.
    
    	Both the facility and security were very accomodating when it
    	came to our security needs. When we started having the problems
    	.0 described the facility put phones and signs up in a nearby
    	lobby.
    
    	I guess the best thing to do is have your management contact
    	facilities, make your needs known and have security enforce it.
    
    	
    						Mike
    						----

Boy is it easy to tell who in this discussion works in the
field and who doesn't!

Actually, I have worked both in the field, and in "engineering". We didn't
have a problem of this sort in either location.

Don't blame the part of the organization that you are not in as the culprit for
what is basically inadequate management.

q

    	My intent in challenging the assumption that anyone or any group
    	has total control of resources (telephones, terminals, conference
    	rooms) simply because their group budgets for them is to make peo-
    	ple realize that it is not any individual group's success that we
    	have to worry about but Digital's success.
    
    	Rudeness in any form is not acceptible behavior, and using another
    	person's office without seeking permission and/or asking them to
    	leave their own office because a call is personal smacks of the
    	height of rudeness.  I personnally avoid using the secretaries'
    	phones for the reason mentioned in an earlier reply.  I always
    	attempt to find the public phone(s) but am often forced to seek
    	an office which is unoccupied because the facility has no phones
    	set up to accommodate visitors.  I usually seek out a secretary
    	to direct me to an unoccupied office.
    
    	The facilities people and security can certainly help provide
    	the services that visitors need, if the building tenants make
    	them aware of the need.  To expect that as a visitor, I can
    	influence whether terminals or phones will be available for
    	my use is not realistic.  In facilities which have major
    	conferencing centers and lots of outside customer visits, DEC
    	has invested in setting up terminal rooms and banks of phones.
    	MKO2, ZKO1, MRO3 etc... have pretty much solved these problems
    	or at least provided the facilities to solve them (you never
    	can prevent rudeness and unprofessionalism completely).
    
    	Unfortunately, some sites which are used for internal meetings
    	either are not aware of the needs of visitors and/or are cost
    	cutting at the expense of the corporation instead of the group.
    
    	If a group of people where taking unfair advantage of resources
    	paid for by my cost center, and/or otherwise behaving in an un-
    	acceptible manner, I would take it up with their management and
    	have my financial person cross-charge them for anything which I
    	felt I could justify.  These people could then explain the budget
    	impacts of their behaviour to their upper management.
    

    This sounds like the classic, "What's mine is mine (I am empowered
    to keep my cost center expenses down) and what's yours is ours (You
    need to support me because it's for the good of the company)."
    
    Just as we can't give away our services to our customers, we are going
    through a phase where we can't give away internal support to each
    other.  My vote is that if somebody wants to use facilities that your
    cost center is paying for and they have no intentions of working a
    mutually beneficial deal, get their cost center number or yank them
    off.  If what they are doing is really all that important, they won't
    mind having their cost center pay for it.  It's all Digital's
    equipment.  And, Digital pays for use of its equipment with cost
    centers.  That's how it's supposed to run anyway.
    
    Steve

    Ref: .16
    < ......we are going through a phase where we can't give away internal
    support to each other..  My vote is that if someone wants to use
    facilities that your coct center is paying for and they have no
    intentions of working a mutually beneficial deal, get their cost center
    number or yank them off......>
    
    Heaven help us!!!!  if we can't provide support to each other, without
    expending resources, just to recapture "funny money", we are in deeeeep
    trouble.  If I ever heard someone who reports to me make a statement
    like the one in .16, we would head straight to a counseling session..Do
    not pass go. Do not stop for coffee.  Teamwork category on Performance
    Appraisal = 5. 

>                       -< I thought this was 1 company >-

The door swings both ways, you know.  There have been instances shown where
the 'owner' of an office has suffered from lack of access to their office.
That has happened to me on numerous occassions.  That impacts MY work and
the person usurping my office is NOT the team player!!!!!!  Person A needing a
resource should not expect to just waltz in and take it.  Person B may very
well have much better use/need of the resource.  I think it quite distasteful
that you would consider this as not being a team player and that you would drag
a person into 'counseling' for this.

>If I ever heard someone who reports to me make a statement
>    like the one in .16, we would head straight to a counseling session..Do
>    not pass go. Do not stop for coffee.  Teamwork category on Performance
>    Appraisal = 5. 

You would then have no objection to my bringing 20 people by your office 
someday to use the phone, regardless of what use you might have for it?
They would all be Digital employees.  And being a team player, you should have 
no objection, right?  After all team players give their all for the team, even 
if their own play suffers, right?  Oh, and you would not mind having your cost
center add an RA82 disk on your system for my use, would you?  The cost is only
'funny money'.

Basically, a line has to be drawn somewhere.  There is a point where Person A's
use of Person B's resources negatively impacts Person B's work.  That is not
team playing on Person A's part since the team suffers.  Asking for use of the
resource FIRST and not assuming you can just take it is a much better approach
to solving this sort of problem.  Wouldn't you agree?

-Joe

    
    Then there's the marketing group which is moving into MR01. They want
    40 foot trees planted in front of the cooling tower because it
    looks "unsightly".
    
    *sigh*

    Ref: .18
    
    I wasn't defending the practice of abusing the use of host facilities. 
    I believe that one should ask permission before utilizing resources
    assigned to others.  I WAS attacking the attitude that "we can't give
    away internal support to each other".  In order for any interlinking
    organizations to be successful, there must exist a mutual willingness
    to unilaterially sacrifice for the good of the overall success.
    

	Questions that this topic brings to mind. When is the last time
	you or someone you know was rewarded for doing something not in
	their job plan to help someone in an other group? When have you
	taken time from doing what you are paid for and reviewed on to
	help someone else and gotten a thank you from *your* boss?

	Lots of people do go out of their way to help other people. This
	usually means they take a hit on their review. Or at least don't
	get any credit for it. After a while and a few poor raises some
	people tend to get very narrow in their focus. It's hard to blame
	them. If upper management *wanted* people to go beyond their jobs
	to support the company then stories of such actions and their rewards
	would be wide spread.

			Alfred

    Re .-1
    
    You wouldn't be thinking of EASYNOTES.LIS by any chance would you...
    I think it is all wrong when people are not recognized for doing useful
    things outside their group; provided of course that they continue to
    get their own tasks done.
    
    Dave

    re: no room for "visitor terminals"
    
    I hadn't really thought about it until this discussion started, but our
    facility (DCO) has an interesting solution to this problem.  On the
    wall outside of the main first floor conference room (the one most
    likely to be used by large meetings), there are a series of three
    indentations in the wall.  Each indentation contains two STANDING
    cubes (no chairs; desk at the height appropriate for a standing
    individual).  Each cube contains a phone and a VT100 terminal.
    
    The use of a standing cube is quite good, in that it allows the person
    to do what needs to be done, but it prevents them from getting too
    comfortable and tying up the resource for an extended period.  The
    VT100s keep the cost down as well as emphasizing the fact that these
    plain-jane cubes are for reading MAIL and such; not for developing
    software or what have you...
    
    I don't remember what was there before these cubes were installed, but
    it couldn't have been more than closet space.  So, there is no need to
    dedicate a full room or even some cubes to visitors.  It is only a loss
    of some storage space.
    
    Now, on the second floor, the second largest conference room has no
    such terminal access outside.  Being in one of areas near this
    conference room, I have seen many DEC visitors come into our area to
    use phones.  Most succeed in finding an unoccupied cube without much of
    a problem.  But I have witnessed people who have made a nuisance of
    themselves by using the secretary's phone, or by talking so loudly that
    others around them have a difficult time working, or even by
    rearranging items on a person's desk to accomodate papers needed for
    their phone call.  We can do without this sort of behavior.
    
    -- Russ

    re: .22
    
>                  -< Did I detect a note of bitterness there >-

>    You wouldn't be thinking of EASYNOTES.LIS by any chance would you...
    
    Makes no difference.  The issue of if-it's-not-in-your-job-description-
    it-ain't-worth-beans has appeared many, many times in recent years.
    
>    I think it is all wrong when people are not recognized for doing useful
>    things outside their group; provided of course that they continue to
>    get their own tasks done.
    
    Seems like this attitude is destined to become even more rare
    (extinct?) in the days to come.  Most people seem eager to "make their
    numbers" and not a whole lot more (of course, when the "numbers" don't
    place a _real_ emphasis on "teamwork", what can you expect?)
    
    Sadly,
    
    -- Russ

    re: a few back
    
    Sorry.  I just can't accept my rejection of the "mine is mine and yours is 
    ours" dogma as meaning that I need to go for counseling.  Sure, we are
    all on the same Digital team, but my team is clearly defined within my
    cost center.  I just can't see the justification for stealing from one
    cost center to benefit another.  If there is justification for
    cooperation then there is justification for sharing expenses, funny
    money or not.  It's not honest, nor the "right thing".  The need for
    corporate teamwork cannot justify compromising my integrity.
    
    Steve

    
    Sounds like the phone system needs the capabililty for the user
    to enter a code to un-lock the phone if :
    
      1) they're not there during normal working hours
      2) and after hours.
    
    I'll bet that most salespeople use the phones in peoples office
    because they can't dial outside numbers, only DTNs. Well why cant the
    phone system be able to accept the cost center of the person making the
    outside call, maybe the badge #, and their extention, and possibly a
    password, and then the cost of the call is billed to their cost center
    with a handling charge or something. That with a company wide policy on
    a designated/consistant spot in each building for telephones and
    terminals could be implemented.
    
    
    Its would al

    It's part of this Company's culture, I guess.  Sorry... I am replying
    without reading all 26 replies first.
    
    I'm a secretary.  The scenario is this:  I'm on the phone with my boss,
    who's traveling, between flights, and is dictating a rather urgent memo
    which I am recording in shorthand.
    
    A woman approaches, stands around, comes into my cubicle, stares, looks
    impatient.  I think, "I don't think this person is here to see my
    boss..."
    
    The woman eventually "gets into my space."  I have to interrupt the
    dictation, put my boss on hold to find out what this impatient woman
    wants.
    
    She wants to know if she can use the "terminal" in the empty cubicle
    (which belongs to my group).
    
    Knowing that it's not a "terminal," but a workstation that needs to be
    booted, I replied, "No, I'm sorry..." and attempted to return to my
    boss and dictation.  
    
    She persisted, and really got rather upset... and didn't even seem to
    understand when I said it was a workstation, not a terminal.  
    
    Grumble. 
    
    

    My group has had the experience (in a previous site) of having
    folks in meetings use the phones and terminals, and walk away
    with papers that were on our desks.  The papers were later discovered
    in the conference room where they were left.
    
    Folks asked to use the phones; then made personal long-distance, loud
    calls that lasted over 1/2 hour.
    
    These actions are rude and unnecessary.
    
    This is where the line has to be drawn.  I'm trying to resolve
    a problem, and the person borrowing the phone in the office next
    to me is laughing and joking with a friend  . . . 
    
    Borrowing a phone to make a call isn't a crime, and I think
    most folks wouldn't mind IF THEY WERE ASKED and if the
    time used was reasonable.

RE: .27

In that situation, I would be very tempted to put my boss back on line and have
the boss explain to this person: (1) that the terminal/workstation can't be
used and (2) why interrupting dictations in this rude manner is not a good
idea or a good use of anybody's time.


RE: .21

>	When is the last time
>	you or someone you know was rewarded for doing something not in
>	their job plan to help someone in an other group? When have you
>	taken time from doing what you are paid for and reviewed on to
>	help someone else and gotten a thank you from *your* boss?

Actually, just this week, in my salary review.  I listed several such things
under "unplanned commitments" in my review input, and it was written up
positively in the review.  The management of some groups has a wider outlook
than others, I guess.

--PSW

    Well, that's an idea... But when you have a person who is in between
    planes, at an airport, and I've just read a very urgent mail memo to
    her... it's kind of tough to ask her to pause from her dictation to
    help me to tell someone else to GO AWAY!  (Actually, I'm very capable
    of doing so, but what makes it difficult is the urge to respond to her
    in the same rude manner as her's.)
    
    That woman's behavior was my point, though.  Generally, I've seen this
    behavior alot before.  I've wondered if it's a company culture
    attitude, if it had something to do with peoples' attitude towards
    administrative help ("she's a secretary, I can interrupt her"), or
    what.  I can honestly say that the pushy, rude behavior displayed by
    some people will get them absolutely nowhere.
    
    BTW:  I've been known to "go out of my way" to help people before. I
          probably would have done the same for that woman, had the cir-
          cumstances been different.
    
    Group norms in each organization are different.  I came from one
    environment in a building where "corridor" conversations were frowned
    upon.  Group discussions should be held in an office or a conference
    room.  The atmosphere was very professional, and you could get your
    work done without loud conversations going on in the hallways, corridors,
    or over cubicle walls.
    
    In contrast, I'm in a different type of building now, and hallway and
    corridor conversations ARE the norm.
    
    In the same vein, norms from one group to another can change
    dramatically.  To further complicate the matter, we then have to con-
    sider each employee's personal makeup.  (What are his/her norms?  
    What does this person consider rude behavior?) 
    
    Perhaps more people will listen if these issues are given more attention.
    Treat the person you come upon with the same RESPECT that you would
    want to be afforded.   
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    I've been on both sides of this. There are facilities that provide
    Easynet access terminals in the lobby (like ZKO) and there are
    facilities that are SO hostile to visitors that I've been taken aback
    by the vehemence of their "go away and don't bother me" response.
    
    Generally, I have found "I'm 3000 miles from home, may I call my kids?"
    works okay. SOmetimes not, though...
    
    	- andy

	re .5:

	Paul has a point here. There is indeed a "cultural gap". Engineers
	tend to have a very intimate relationship with their systems, similar
	to an artist's easel and paints, or a musician's instrument. By
	contrast, field people (especially sales) tend to think of "terminals"
	as interchangeable, and use them solely to access ALL-IN-1 (which
	moreover a lot of them think is just mail). In fact, the latest
	idea in some field offices is to provide, say, 50 desks and terminals
	for 150 employees. The expectation is that 100 will be out visiting
	customers at any given time. Personal stuff is put in carts and
	stored; these can be wheeled out when necessary.

	To be fair, sales people extend hospitality to visitors; yesterday
	I was at a sales office and my host waved me to an empty desk on
	arrival. It belonged to one of his colleagues, but by calling IS
	I was immediately able to access a "guest" account through which
	I could SET HOST to my own system.

	There is also a distinct difference in "mindset" between at least
	four different classes of employees: engineers, technical field
	people, sales people, and managers. Engineers are used to an
	"undisturbed" environment because they are doing "individual
	contributor" work most of the time. Those of us from the field
	who understand this know, for example, that an engineer should
	be contacted through Notes or (if urgent) by mail, never by
	phone. However, sales people almost always work in a team
	environment (not always, I know). This involves chatter, hustle,
	and give-and-take.

	re .21:

	However... when all's said and done, we all have to work together
	and that means taking the time and trouble to understand colleagues
	and their different styles of working (a clear case of "valuing
	differences"). And Alfred has really got a valuable point in .23 -
	I cannot say that the company culture encourages cooperation. Quite
	the contrary: for the last ten years I have heard more and more of
	"we can't help them, it's not on our plan/budget". Culminating,
	no doubt, in the thoughtless, immature and irresponsible behaviour
	of the people described in this note.

	As a fairly regular visitor to ZKO, I hope that neither I nor my
	fellow CASE Partners have been guilty of this sort of thoughtlessness.
	Software Engineering is the engine-room of this corporation, and I
	would sooner spit in church.

	To end on a positive note: things are looking up in my small
	part of the universe. Peter Morse has just taken over as Director
	of Sales and Marketing in the UK, and his initial speech on Friday
	night indicated that he intends to fix a lot of these problems
	right away. He went out of his way to stress that everyone in the
	subsidiary is on the same team, and that no artifical barriers
	should be allowed to obstruct our cooperation. He specifically
	instructed managers to see that this didn't happen. We all left
	the meeting feeling a lot better.

	/Tom

Before some pseudo-conscientious dope flames Andy for calling his kids:

  Business Expense                                      Effective: 01-DEC-90
       Section: 5.11

  Additional Reimbursable Items 

 Telephone

 The company's tie-line network or credit cards should be used to
 reduce the cost of long distance calls.  Long distance calls should
 not be placed through hotel desks due to the significant surcharges
 which are often added, especially when overseas.  Personal calls may
 be allowed when the employee is away over extended periods of time.
 Employees are expected to use good judgment concerning the frequency
 of such calls.

    Common sense, too.
    
    But thanks for posting -1, John.
    
    	- andy

Interesting topic; we've had similar discussions in the DEC Secretary notes 
conference.  Unfortunately for us, as secretaries, we tend to fall victim 
to this kind of behavior more than our WC4 counterparts.  I've had people 
come out of conference rooms asking me to make copies, order coffee, and 
one woman (at 7:30 in the morning, when I was working on a critical 
deadline) asked me to TYPE HER PRESENTATION for an 8:00 meeting!  It's not 
always easy when we want to Do The Right Thing for Digital, but also need 
to do our own jobs.  Unfortunately, continuous interruptions stop me from 
doing my job.  Moreover, I could theoretically get grief from my manager if 
it appears that I've been making an excessive number of outside phone calls 
(and he probably wouldn't want to hear that they weren't *my* calls...).

Some ideas for "victims" of rude visitors:

--If the problem is a continuous one, work with your Facilities Manager to
  see if alternate arrangements can be made (e.g., terminals outside of
  busy conference rooms, phones put in them, etc.).

--If someone asks for the phone, refer them to the reception area where
  phones are typically available.  Or, if there is a vacant office,
  welcome to use the phone there, but ask that they put any outside calls
  on their own telephone credit card [if a business call, they can submit
  the bill to Petty Cash later for reimbursement].  

--Terminal usage is sometimes more difficult.  I got into trouble once
  for letting The Vice President's Secretary [!] set host from my
  account to her system during a meeting break!!!  My systems folks
  warned me that it was a security violation to allow such access and that
  it was grounds for termination.  No kidding.  So...if someone asks for
  access to my system now, I merely advise them that it's a security 
  violation and I wish them well in finding someone who will allow it.

--If you find that some groups tend to abuse the room's neighbors on a
  regular basis, don't let them use the room anymore.  When I maintained
  a conference room, I kept notes on people who used the room and either
  stole things from it, continuously forgot to cancel it (thus leaving
  it booked so others couldn't use it), or other rude things.  If
  one group overstepped those bounds too many times, I simply refused to
  book it for them in the future.

Suggestions for off-site meeting goers:

--If you need to make outside business calls, call your secretary via
  DTN and ask her/him to forward you to the outside number.  That puts
  the bill where it belongs.  If you can't do that, put the call on
  your personal credit card and put through a Miscellaneous Procurement
  Voucher later.

--If you know you'll need a phone (for a conference call or the like) or
  an office, ask the person arranging the meeting AHEAD OF TIME to help
  you with your accommodations.  I've often arranged for "break out rooms"
  or "visitors' offices" when I've known ahead of time that people will
  need terminal or phone access.  I've also arranged for visitor accounts
  to be set up on VMS so people can set host to their own machines.

--Make sure you know your system dial-in or group TSN information.  That
  way, you can gain access to your system without setting host from a
  local account.

--If at all possible, use 'public' phones (reception area or other 
  designated visitor areas).

--If you do need to use someone's office, ask a secretary to help you
  in finding one where you won't disrupt others.  S/he will often
  know of vacant offices, ones whose owners are travelling, etc.

--DO NOT go into an office without asking!!!  If a person just stepped
  away for a while, s/he may have left confidential information on the
  desk or within eyesight.

--If you approach someone who looks busy (secretary or not), go find 
  *someone else* to help you.  


As for Alfred's comment (.21):  Yes, some people *do* get recognized for
helping others.  I've helped folks and have received letters of thanks from
those whom I've helped, as well as mention in my performance review from my
own manager.  Being courteous isn't a hard thing to do.  Who knows?  Maybe 
those whom you've helped will return the favor some day.  It's always 
worked for me that way.

    re: -1
    
>--If someone asks for the phone, refer them to the reception area where
>  phones are typically available.  Or, if there is a vacant office,
>  welcome to use the phone there, but ask that they put any outside calls
>  on their own telephone credit card [if a business call, they can submit
>  the bill to Petty Cash later for reimbursement].  

    This is quite wrong and against policy.  Digital pays the phone
    bills, not individual managers.  Credit card calls cost Digital more 
    than direct dialing.  It is expected as a normal part of doing business
    that Digital facilities will pay for the business calls of visiting 
    Digital employees. 
    
>--Terminal usage is sometimes more difficult.  I got into trouble once
>  for letting The Vice President's Secretary [!] set host from my
>  account to her system during a meeting break!!!  My systems folks
>  warned me that it was a security violation to allow such access and that
>  it was grounds for termination.  No kidding.  So...if someone asks for
>  access to my system now, I merely advise them that it's a security 
>  violation and I wish them well in finding someone who will allow it.
    
    God gave me a brain and Digital pays me to use it.  Rules make sense
    only insofar as they serve a legitimate business purpose.  Computer
    systems and security policies are in place to support the business
    needs of the corporation's employees; not vice-versa.  This manager has
    little tolerance for the mindless application of policies where they
    clearly don't make sense.  Anyone who got my secretary in trouble for
    doing a sensible thing would find themselves in plenty of trouble with
    me.
    
    Al
    

        <<< Note 1493.36 by ALOSWS::KOZAKIEWICZ "Shoes for industry" >>>
    
>>    This is quite wrong and against policy.  Digital pays the phone
>>    bills, not individual managers.  Credit card calls cost Digital more 
>>    than direct dialing.  

    now this is wrong! I asked the telecom here in Colorado Springs ( and
    believe me, with 1000+ people living on the phone 8 hours/day they know
    their stuff) whether I should call customers using my AT&T SDN card,
    or use the 2nd (digital) line at home, and they said SDN is cheaper than 
    direct dial from a domestic line.
    
    simon

    re: -1
    
    That very well may be for calls placed from OFF Digital premises, but
    there is no way you can convince me that it it cheaper to place a
    credit card call from a Digital phone (on Digital premises) than it is 
    to dial direct!  It makes no sense at all.
    
    Al
    

    .35 Seems predicated on stopping people being able to communicate and
    doing their business (DEC's business).
    
    There should be a middle path whereby people aren't rude to each other.
    
    As to threats of termination if you allow someone to use your account
    to set host elsewhere, this is sheer balderdash and whoever made that
    threat would be asked in clear terms to show the P&P that says this.
    
    	- andy

               <<< Note 1493.39 by ASICS::LESLIE "Andy Leslie" >>>
    
>    As to threats of termination if you allow someone to use your account
>    to set host elsewhere, this is sheer balderdash and whoever made that
>    threat would be asked in clear terms to show the P&P that says this.
    
    Andy,

    There is not a P&P that applies to this concept, but the Corporate Security 
Standard 11.1 does talk to this issue. It is a document nearly 50 pages 
long and covers many, many aspects of Computer Security within Digital. 
Part of that document addresses the users responsibility to Digital as it 
applies to using their account. It does not specifically say "you will be 
terminated for sharing your account" as noted above, but it does take a 
conservative view of keeping your account private and secure. Business 
needs can be exceptions that cause us as account holders to vary from the 
standards, but it must be documented and accepted by various levels 
of management.

    What does this all say? If you use and abuse your account, you will be 
held responsible for that abuse. It is frowned upon to let someone set host 
from your account to their machine. But common sense allows us to be 
cooperative and help out fellow employees who need asistance when we can. 
This is strictly my interpretation of what I read in the Security 
Standards, your mileage, and that of Corporate Information Security may 
vary.......

    Vic H

When someone wants to use my account to set host, I log in and run the
following command file (which is only secure _after_ the system name has
been typed, due to the use of "inquire").

$set nocontrol=y
$inquire hostsys "System"
$set host 'hostsys'
$logout

    re: .14
    
    I was wondering when someone was going to point that difference. In the
    field people visit and use "your" stuff all the time. I have visited up
    on the mountain myself many times and have been in the position of
    needing a phone or a terminal and been made to feel like I was from SUN
    or IBM.
    
    Regarding this idea that things are mine... grow up and join the world.
    
    I agree people should ask and receive permission, but this concept of
    it's mine and you can not have it is childish. Visitors use my office
    all the time, and yes even field people have customer and company
    sensitive things, but I am not going to get bent out of shape over a
    person using my terminal or phone for company business. 
    
    Frank

And with the way some Account Groups are going to provide global support, we
will have support people flying in from somewhere and they will need a place to 
work. They may need to use someone's office that may be at training or on 
vacation. It's better for the company to do that than have an office and 
workstation sitting idle until the remote support people need them.

Of course the people that borrow the offices and equipment need to be 
sensitive to the people whose office they are using and leave them as they
found them.

    I agree with most folks that they should ask to use your office
    space, and that the needs of the "company" need to come first. However
    this doesn't always happen. Who determines what is more important
    the person who stopped in to use "MY" terminal while I went to get
    coffee or me who needs to get "MY" work done???????
    RE:42.....I guess you wouldn't mind if while I was at your site
    I stopped in where you work and used "OUR" system,phone,looked through
    all "OUR" paper work "YOU" left out on "OUR" desk???????Then I can
    take one of ""OUR" vans or Trailer Trucks for a spin (it says DIGITAL
    on it )????? I hope when you say you let "VISITORS" use your office
    that you are with them all the time??? Digital employees are not
    visitors no matter what site there at(or they would sign in the
    visitor logs).............Well enough of that didn't mean to go
    off in a tangent...The point is that I am assigned a work area if
    it was not meant for ME and open for all office doors would not
    need to be locked. To think that all DECies are totally honest is
    a nice thought.....but very childish.........
    
                                                   Bob

Re .-1: There are some Digital sites where non-resident Digital employees have
        to sign a visitor log...

    RE:45.....I have never heard of any site that made a  Digital employee
    (with Badge) sign in as a visitor?????? It is my understanding that
    You are authorized in any DEC facility as long as you are an employee
    with this Company. If you sign in as a visitor then according to
    policy you must be escorted???????? But then I haven't been to evey
    DEC site!!!!!!

    Most field offices request visiting Digits to sign in.  And yes, you do
    need to be escorted to a certain extent since all external doors
    (except possibly the one between the offices and the reception area)
    are under electronic access control.  At the old NYO facility, you
    either needed to borrow a card key or go through the reception area to
    use the men's room.

    re: .46

    As a traveling Digital Employee "visiting" the Albuquerque Manufacturing 
    Plant, you must sign in once for the duration of your stay.  It makes
    sense in that if someone is looking for you, the name of the person you
    are visiting is in the log and security can route the call
    appropriately.
    
    Steve D 

    I have always had to sign in in Burlington VT.
    

    RE.47,.48...I would imagine that this policy must be site specific???
    I have never had to travel to any site out or N.E. and as far as
    I knew you as long as you have  a valid badge??? I can see many
    cases that some sort of sign in would make sense....well another
    note maybe...........
    
                                 Thanks again
                                           Bob

    
    	I've had to sign into Digital facilities, even with my badge on,
    in several different facilities throughout Europe and Asia, too.  The
    rule does not seem to be applied where there are a sufficient number
    of DEC sites leading to a lot of interplant travel, like the Greater
    Maynard Area, Tokyo, Geneva, etc.
    
    	A lot of it has to do with internal security procedures and the use 
    of local keycards to get into various areas.

    I signed a log when I visited Albuquerque, Phoenix, San German, and
    Aguadilla facilities, but they were not visitor logs.  The logs that
    I signed were strictly for DEC employees and designed to indicate where
    to route any incoming calls which might occur during your visit.  I was
    not a visitor (I was informed to not park in visitor parking).  There
    were at least three different logs used by security, one for visitors,
    one for contractors, and one for DEC employees from other sites. 
    That's the reason you signed in once for each stay, rather than sign
    in every time your entered or left the building as a visitor is
    required to do.
    
    

    I didn't realize people felt so strongly about this.  When traveling
    for DEC, and teaching, I have often stepped into an office where the
    desk surfaces are cleaned off, the lights are off, and no coat or
    personal belongings are in evidence, and used the phone.  I have always
    avoided messy or chaotic offices because I didn't want to disturb
    anything, and I have always tried to use a phone in a public area if that
    was possible before 'borrowing' one.
    
    I have also always assumed that if the office's owner arrived, it was
    up to *me* to get off the phone asap and find another one to use.  When
    people have come to their office, they seemed to appreciate my saying
    "The owner of this office has just arrived, I will find another phone
    and call you back".  In many cases they've said "Oh, finish up your
    call while I get coffee".
    
    I think it has a lot to do with basic consideration.  As long as I am
    not being lazy about walking to a public phone, and as long as I treat
    the occupant and neighbors respectfully and considerately, I think I'm
    doing the right thing for DEC when I return important business calls
    during very short breaks.
    
    I also agree that the best situation is when your host at the site
    (or their secretary) points you to a phone or terminal that they are
    happy to have you use for the duration of your work at the site.
    
    I'm sorry to hear that some people have been so rude that other people
    never want to share a phone with an unknown colleague again.

    Holly,
    
    This would be a very pleasant place to be-- all the time, if the halls
    were filled with people like you!