Conference 7.286::digital

>    	So, rather than argue about whether unions are good or bad, why
>    not assume that most existing unions are sufficiently imperfect and
>    begin the discussion from there.  Pretend for a momment that you have
>    been called together to architect an ideal union for software/hardware
>    engineers at DEC.  What would such a union or guild look like?


	Well, how about one that:

	1) Took no money from anyone's paycheck,
	2) Dictated no work terms to members,
	3) Left the individual's salary, benefits, etc between
	   the individual and the employer,
	4) Engaged in no political activity ( lobbying, pressuring of
	   government reps, financing of campaigns ),
	5) Engaged in no violence or threatened violence ( vehicle
	   and road blockage, shotgunning of vehicles, etc ),
	6) Encouraged no government mandates of union membership in
	   any job,



	In short, no union is the best union.

	Steve H

    Boy, I tried to come up with something.  Better to stick with the
    Thumper Rule ...
    
    Steve

    Well, since I perpetuated a potential "urban myth" about unions, I feel
    impelled to answer Dave's query constructively, although my first
    impression is like the previous replies.
    
    First, lets begin by contrasting "unions" with "professional
    associations".  There are similarities and differences, one of which is
    that professional associations do not raise people's hackles so
    quickly.  Maybe there is something to be learned from the comparison.
    
    Comparison Item		Union			Profesional Association
    ---------------		-----			-----------------------
    can exclude someone 	yes, in a closed	yes, if licensing or 
    from some kind of work	shop			certification is 
    							required
    
    sets work standards, 	yes, by contract	yes, but as above, and
    with or without the		negotiations with	using peer pressure
    consent of the member	the employer
    
    prohibits its members	yes, by work rules	not as far as I know,
    from work not identified	negotiated with the	but there is indirect
    as appropriate to the	employer		pressure to respect
    group						the domains of other
    							professions
    
    bargains collectively	yes			identifies "reasonable" 
    with the employer for				fees and evaluates
    the entire membership,				salary scales
    and across industries
    
    adopts an adversary		nearly always		only rarely
    relationship with the
    employer
    
    has been known to use	violence, 		psychological and
    means of influence 		physical and		economic
    beyond negotiation		psychological		intimidation
    				intimidation
    
    avoids public exposure	if they have clout	almost always
    of wrong doing by members,
    covers up scandals
    
    considers benefits to	yes			yes
    its members as more
    important than benefits
    to employer
    
    permits members to move	no			yes
    to management jobs and
    remain in the organization
    
    maintains a code of 	not commonly		common, but not often
    "ethics" or "service"				fully enforced
    
    time span of benefits	immediate or		short and long
    sought by leadership	short term		term
    
    qualifications for		family or		education plus
    membership			other informal		"connections"
    				ties
    
    treats individuals..
    (in theory)			equally			individually
    (in practice)		discriminates		in mass
    
    I am sure there are other comparisons that could be made.  But on the
    basis of these, we should be able to position ourselves on the scale
    between a union and a professional organization.  

    re: .4
    This "comparison" contains several personal opinions, and one glaring
    factual error.
    
    Comparison Item		Union			Professional Association
    ---------------		-----			------------------------
    qualifications for		family or		education plus
    membership			other informal		"connections"
    				ties
    				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Demonstrably untrue for industrial unions and public employee unions.
    
    Wes

    If you're going to do it, do it right.
    
    Samuel Gompers is generally credited with starting the first, formal
    trade union (not a guild) in the United States.  When asked at a rally
    just what his union's goals were, his reply was simply, "More, now!". 
    And that is the environment I would want my union to foster. More
    wages, benefits, better working conditions, shorter hours, etc.;
    immediately and with no mention of performance issues. The closest any
    union comes to that, today, is the PASS-THE-BATS-AND-HIT-THE-BRICKS
    Teamsters union.
    
    However, I will go on welfare before I will take another job in a union
    shop.
    
    Dave

In my current situation as a software engineer, I have no need for collective
bargaining.  Therefore, for me, unionization is solving a non-problem.  For
me, the best union is no union at all.

--PSW

	to a union that I can think of for software engineers - unions
	often maintain their own retirement funds and the employers use
	that fund instead of providing their own (I won't EVEN start
	discussing other "uses" of those funds).  This is intended to
	provide retirement benefits for members, especially in trades
	where the employee often moves between jobs.  My wife was once
	a member of such a union.

	I saw a study a couple of years ago (IEEE ?) that said the
	average software engineer, especially in the first few years
	of his/her professional career, changes employers every 2-3
	years. Often this by choice, but it is common for many smaller
	companies to have large hiring/lay-off binges as business
	needs change. I beleive that there was also some investigation
	into methods of setting up a national fund for software folks.
	I don't know how this ever turned out, but the concept was
	quite interesting.

	However, I too would rather change careers than join a union
	solely to get this benefit.

    Just a quick question, how many dec sites are union?
                                 Cheryl
    

>    Just a quick question, how many dec sites are union?
 
	In the US or in the world? I don't think we have any union shops at
	DEC in the US. Europe is a different story and I think there are union
	shops in a number of countries. They do helpful things like make sure
	no one works late.

				Alfred

re .10:

From what I've read in this conference, it's laws rather than union rules
that prevent people from working late in some European countries (which,
FWIW, have more robust economies than the U.S.).

>European countries ... have more robust economies than the U.S.

Define more robust.  The U.S. has a higher per-capita GNP than any country
in Europe.  This gap is closing, but hasn't closed yet.

>Laws rather than unions prevent late work

It's a combination.  In Germany, the law requires that the Betriebsrat
authorize late work.  They usually won't.  Even with 47 days (nine+ weeks)
of vacation a year, the Betriebsrat wants to make sure that management
doesn't overwork our employees.

In Germany, the Betriebsrat refused to give permission for any Sunday
set-up work for the recent DECUS Symposium.  So everyone had to spend an
extra day out of town and away from their families at DEC's expense.

Had the Betriebsrat given permission, permission could have been obtained
from the government agency responsible for such things.

/john

    I heard thet there were Union DECS in Massachusetts.  Any truth to
    this????
    

Last time I looked, the data center operators at the DEC Marlboro, MA were
unionized.  However, MRO is not a union shop, in that you don't have to
join a union to work there.

--PSW

    
    I agree with no unions..but it would sure be nice to have someone with
    some clout fighting to get *US* 5 weeks of vacation a year!!
    

      <<< Note 1448.14 by PSW::WINALSKI "Careful with that VAX, Eugene" >>>

=> Last time I looked, the data center operators at the DEC Marlboro, MA were
=> unionized.  However, MRO is not a union shop, in that you don't have to
=> join a union to work there.
=>
=> --PSW


As the former Site I.S. Manager of the Marlboro site, I can tell you that 
none of the Operators in my organization were unionized. And having more than 
a cursory knowledge of other Marlboro data centers, I would say there were no 
unionized Digital employees anywhere in Marlboro. Might be a different story
for some of the contract workers working there.

I also would like to note that the 'u' word was never mentioned by anyone
while I was there.

Jim

It's my understanding that one significant reason we decided not to
build a manufacturing facility on property we owned in Rhode Island
was that unions in the area made it extremely clear that they would
attempt to organize DEC workers at any plant in R.I., and that this
would be a foot-in-the-door for the rest of the company.

RE: .16

The last time I looked was back in 1982.  I remember the subject of there being
no unions at DEC came up and one of the computer operators at MRO said that
they were unionized.  I think that may have been a hold-over from when DEC
took over the MRO facility from RCA.

--PSW

Re .16:

>I also would like to note that the 'u' word was never mentioned by anyone
>while I was there.

Perhaps, but there was Marxist graffitti in one of the men's room stalls for the
manufacturing floor (MR1-3).
				/AHM

I predict that as the use of C becomes more widespead, we'll be seeing
more unions at DEC.

    re.14 JUST A LITTLE UNION????


    There is no such thing. 

    Besides a union rewards the inept and penalizes the exceptional in any
    case that I have ever heard of. Think about it! all pay scales for the 
    same job are the same no matter how long you've been doing the job or 
    how well. A 5 performer gets the same money as a one performer, BUT if 
    an upgraded job comes open and the 5 performer has seniority over the 1, 
    guess who gets the job?

    At one time unions may have been worth while. They did manage to help 
    bust the child labor and sweat sweat shop magnates but they may very
    well have outlived their usefulness.
     

    ref .21
    
    as opposed to the way things work now where someone might be with DEC
    for 10 years, and a '2' performer the whole time, but we hire someone
    in off the street for much higher wages? 
     -or-
    how you CAN'T get promoted to a new job because you're NOT in the pay
    scale so they'll GIVE you a lateral transfer with your current salary
    but expect you to do the job posted for the higher position?
    -or-
    salary freezes?
    -or-
    all of the other 'little' things that most of us have dealt with and
    ended up shrugging off as "unfair-but-nobody-ever-said-life-was-fair"
    
    I'm NOT for Unions, but I do think that we're without a voice or a real
    employee advocate here (maybe just in the US, who knows). 
    Who WILL step up and change the rules and tell "them" what's fair and
    what's not?  
    We can all P&M here all day in notes. We can write long winded letters
    to VPS and spread 'em around the Easynet. Does this REALLY accomplish
    anything? no. That's why we all sit around worried about 'the tap'. 
    
    Unions? No. But what DO we have in the way of representation?
    nothing.  It's lonely at the bottom! :-)
    

Re: .22                <<< Note 1448.22 by CSC32::PITT >>>
>            -< Unions? no....but who will help the little people? >-

Who will help the "little people"? why, themselves thats who!
You need to do what you need to do. But, please don't involve me.
I don't care what they are hiring people at, all I care about is what
I'm being paid. If I want a job that I believe involves a promotion
and the hiring manager wont give it to me, then I dont take that job.
I look for another one. If I cant live with a salary freeze, then I
do something about it. I cant tell DEC how to run its business, nor
should I. 

>    I'm NOT for Unions, but I do think that we're without a voice or a real
>    employee advocate here (maybe just in the US, who knows). 

Well, neither am I.

>    Who WILL step up and change the rules and tell "them" what's fair and
>    what's not?  

Not me, I dont presume to know what is "fair", fair for who? you, me, them?
I'll tell you want is fair for me. I work for a week, they give me money for it
and this continues for as long as it is mutually agreed upon.

- George

    
    and so *I'M* happy so everything MUST be ok. 
    aw well. 
    
    But as for Unions. 
    The question is "what would be a GOOD Union?". 
    
    Seems to me, that a UNION is simply a BUNCH of people standing together
    for their rights.  The perfect Union would NOT be something that is
    "brought in", it would be a 'coming together' of the people who are
    here already, selecting one VOICE, but not one leader. 
    There would be no dues, or rules, or violence involved. 
    It wouldn't be US against THEM. 
    It would simply be a voice of the employees that could take ideas and
    complaints and grievences to someone who would really listen and had
    the power to change something.                         
    
    I think that UNION has become a dirty word because of what it became.
    It became a profit oriented organization that USED the workers for it's
    own gain. Probably the ultimate in "power corrupting". 
    
    
    

    re: -.1
    
    Along this line of thought, maybe the ideal "union" is when all the
    workers feel like they are part of the company.  When a "union" is
    brought in from outside, what you often end up with is a company within
    a company.  This way, workers that don't feel like they are part of the
    company anymore can at least be part of SOME company.  I would suspect
    that any support for unions at Digital would be the result of workers
    no longer having the impression that what they have to say makes any
    difference in how the company is run or how they are treated.
    
    Steve

    RE.22, &.25

    Mr. Pitt, I agree with you. But as an independent I also have the
    option to negotiate with a person that may have the power to fix
    something. or get the job, or bigger raise, etc. & etc. I don't have to
    just sit and take it or wait for someone else to do something at a
    predetermined contract ending. Besides, if I don't like whats happening
    I can always leave for some other place that may have greener pastures.

    Over and above the inequities inherent in unions I am and independent
    and would rather do things for/by myself than be part of a group. No
    flames please I am not casting aspersions, but a union makes me
    think of a herd of sheep. 

    
    
    .27  
    <
    
    >Mr. Pitt, I agree with you.
    
    How did you arrive at   Mr. ??!
    
    
    I like the comparison to a herd of sheep and Union as we know it.
    
    As I said, Union need not be 'brought in', or dues, or violence. 
    The ideal union would be someone representing YOU to someone who
    really CARES. Strangely, the open door policy would almost even work
    if people didn't feel like they were spitting in the wind!  
    

re .28
    
>    The ideal union would be someone representing YOU to someone who
>    really CARES. Strangely, the open door policy would almost even work
>    if people didn't feel like they were spitting in the wind!  
    
I have a couple of questions:

1. If the advocate is representing me to someone who cares, why do I need an
   advocate? 

2. If using the O.D.P. is "spitting in the wind" then what makes you think
   an advocate will be representing me to some who cares?

3. If #2 is really the case, then what happens when the advocate fails to
   reach a satisfactory result?

4. Who is this advocate and how does the advocate get paid for their time?
   
   remember if the company pays them, then ....... I dont really have to 
   paint that picture do I?
   
   and If the employees pay, how would it work with no dues?

   If the advocate is also an employee, how do they arrange time away from
   their normal job to handle other employee's problems?

- George 

    
    
    
    RE.28 How did I arrive at MR.??? 
    
    Just a shot in the dark. With no first name and no other obvious (To me
    anyhow) means of gender identification I figured I had a 50/50 chance
    at being right. Maybe from now on I should put a generic label of Dear
    Sir or Madame??  8*) maybe more generic of HEY YOU for the militant
    types. 8*) 8*)  
           ^^^^^^^ please note the smiley faces!!
    
    STEVE 

    According to reply .20, the ideal union might look something like this:

    union DEC_employee_def {
    		DEC_Emloyee_Struct	employee;
    		DEC_Manager_Struct	manager;
    		DEC_Agent_Struct	agent;
    } DEC_employee;

    ;^)

    	My experience with unions is somewhat limited.  I worked at a
    milk bottling plant once one spring after graduating somewhat early
    from high school (thinking I was going to do that forever since $5
    an hour seemed like alot of money at the time).  There was a union
    at the milk bottling plant which I was pressured to join but never
    did.  This was what I would consider to be a more traditional labor
    union in that it adopted a strictly adversarial relationship with
    management, and furthermore, it never struck me as being worth
    joining (of course the job wasn't really worth doing either, so
    maybe the fact that I knew I wouldn't be working there forever had
    something to do with it as well).

    	Later in my career, I did actually join a union (actually a
    Guild - the Screen Actors Guild to be exact).  The film industry is
    a totally different game when it comes to unions since everybody from
    the directors to the extras are all in some sort of union, so there
    isn't the same sort of manager/employee friction that you find in a
    more stereotypical "management versus labor union" environment.

    	The main thing I liked about the Screen Actor's Guild was
    the focus on the employee.  Nevermind the unfortunate fact that
    probably 80% to 90% of SAG actors are unemployed at any given time,
    but let it be said that when you are employed, you are treated like
    a king!  One reason is that as an actor, you run your own business.
    As an actor, having a manager is entirely optional - if you want one,
    you hire one, and if things don't work out, then it is up to you to
    fire them (not the other way around).  Agents are typically the people
    who find you the work and arrange the casting interviews, and the same
    holds for them as well regarding hiring and firing (some actors have
    several agents to keep a constant queue of jobs lined up, but agents
    typically prefer to have exclusive rights to you if possible).  Both
    managers and agents take a set percentage of your salary (which you
    negotiate beforehand), so you only have to pay them when you earn
    something.  Acting agents are similar to agents in professional sports
    (if I'm not mistaken).  Obviously, it is cheaper to manage yourself
    and act as a "free agent".  Many do, but this is hard to do unless
    you know what you're doing business-wise, and already have connections
    in the business for job leads, etc..

    	In summary, I did like the sort of free-lance approach to work
    while a member of SAG, but I sure didn't appreciate waiting for the
    phone calls and working the odd jobs in between the acting jobs.  Of
    course, this was Hollywood during the early 80's when all the unions
    went on strike and the recession of the early 80's was just beginning,
    so business was pretty slow in Hollywood.  I guess if I were to create
    a wishlist of items for an ideal union, then I would have to add
    that I would like to see the employee given the same sort of free-
    lance command over their own destiny as exists in the various film
    industry unions.
    				   -davo

p.s.	Who knows, maybe what is needed is a "NES" (New Employee System)
    	to go with the NMS (New Management System)?

    re .30..
    
    sorry Steve..Your shot in the dark was off!  Don't buy any lottery
    tickets this week! No matter....I'm not the militant type...call me 
    anything you like!!
    
    re .29.
    
    So good points. I'm afraid I haven't worked out the details yet on my
    'ideal non-union' theory.
    
    We know that this advocate (preferably group of advocates) would NOT be
    paid by Dec. (Yes we Know what THAT will get us!).
    
    No dues. Lets see. Something along the lines of a consumers group.
    A Ralph Nadar for employee rights. 
    
    How bout this. What we NEED is someone within Dec, high up, with Ken's
    ear, who really had a sense of decency and fair play (hummm...could be
    tough to find someone who makes that much money and would still really
    care about the little people....). THEN: we need to set up district
    representatives who would have an opportunity to talk to this person
    say once every 6 months and lay out the legitamate concerns of that
    district (or site or whatever). 
    
    ->Ever been to one of those meetings where you're ASKED to ask questions
    and voice your concerns but you KNOW that there's notes being taken and
    that if your opinion isn't "I LOVE YOU AND MY JOB AND AMERICA", then
    you'll be one of those 24 month-1% pay raise folks??<-
    
    
      
    
    maybe if Ralph Nadar gets tired of helping consumers, maybe he'd be
    interested in helping disgruntled deccies!
    
    
     cathy  
    (that's MR. Cathy to you, Steve!!)  :-)
    

    Curious as to how non-US Digits react to this discussion of unions.
    It's my understanding that the worker groups, whether dubbed unions or
    not, are much more active and powerful in some of the DEC's European 
    sites.
    
    Gene

    
    >Unions outside of U.S
    
    Out of curiousity, is it the Unions that got you 5 weeks a year (give
    or take) vacation in Europe, or is it a government regulation?
    
    We seem so far behind here in that respect, acutally in most respects
    to employee benefits (rights??)
    
    

re .35

The answer will depend on the country.

In most cases, DEC gives the vacation mandated by law.

In Germany, this is also the case, but it took pressure from the
Betriebsrat to get the vacation increased to the current 9.4 weeks.

/john

    DEC UK gives more vacation than the legal minimum. They give the 'going
    rate' in salary and other benefits.
    
    	- andy

    
    
    
    	9.4 weeks !!?!?!? ( as my jaw bounces off the floor...)
    
    	I knew that Europe allows longer vacations but didn't know
    	it was that long....
    
    	If I'm here after 20 years I'll only be up to 5 weeks...
    
    	Some of the people in my group don't know what to do with 
    	4 weeks vacation, myself *not* included...
    
    						Mike
    						----

re .38  Yes, 9.4 weeks of vacation.

Plus three weeks of holidays:  (some are regional but Munich takes them all.
				and some fall on Sat/Sundays in some years)

New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, Epiphany (Feast of the Three Kings), Good
Friday, Easter Monday, May Day, Ascension Day, Whitmonday (Monday after
Pentecost), Corpus Christi, Day of German Unity (17 June -- is this
changing?), Assumption of the B.V.M., All Saint's Day, Day of Atonement,
Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Second Day of Christmas.

/john

    
    9.4 weeks of vacation compared to the 2,3 or 4 weeks, depending on how long
    you've been with the company that we get here.......hum......         
    
    Now, I don't want to sound UNGRATEFUL....but does this really seem
    
                *********************FAIR******************?
    
    THAT is EXACTLY why this country NEEDS to have a stronger
    represesntation for the employees...no matter WHAT you want to call it. 
    
    The ideal union? The one who got the 9.4 weeks for the folks in
    Germany....

    OK, it's conceded, it's not fair.
    
    (a) send a suggestion to Delta
    (b) compute what the impact is on profitability if the company
    implements this policy.
    (c) consider that some might prefer the status quo rather than give up
    the hope of getting raises or the hope that company insurance premiums
    won't go up each year.
    (d) go work for another US-based company with the policies you prefer
    (e) seek employment in Digital Germany.
    (f) form a union for Digital US.

>    9.4 weeks of vacation compared to the 2,3 or 4 weeks, depending on how long
>    you've been with the company that we get here.......hum......         
>    
>    Now, I don't want to sound UNGRATEFUL....but does this really seem
>    
>                *********************FAIR******************?
>    
>    THAT is EXACTLY why this country NEEDS to have a stronger
>    represesntation for the employees...no matter WHAT you want to call it. 
>    
>    The ideal union? The one who got the 9.4 weeks for the folks in
>    Germany....

    You must assume that all other benefits and compensation for people
    working for DEC in Germany are the same if you are trying to figure 
    if this is fair.  Can someone elaborate on how salary and benefits
    compare between Germany and the US.

    I do know that people working for DEC in the UK get paid less than
    DEC employees in the US.  They do get a week or two more vacation, 
    but I'd rather have the cash.

    -Bruce
      

    
    
      It's a shame that U.S.  employees can't opt for additional
    vacation time in lieu of  Pay-raises...  
    
      I bet a lot of people would opt for the extra time off,  which
    could improve morale,  and potentially save the company money
    if the vacation were "sold"  at a premium...)
    
    
                                                    -al

    9 weeks of vacation time!  NO WAY!
    
    I couldn't afford it.  My family would want to go on cruises or trips
    to foreign lands.  If I take a day off my wife heads for the shopping
    center.
    

>      It's a shame that U.S.  employees can't opt for additional
>    vacation time in lieu of  Pay-raises...  
    
    If you made 52K(1K/week), a 6% raise would get you three weeks pay.
    Take three weeks leave of absence and you have basically gotten what
    you asked for.
    
    The problem with this is many people are in groups that won't give you
    a leave of absense.  
    
    -Bruce
    

At the current exchange rate, salaries in Germany are much higher than in
the U.S.

Cost of living in major cities is similar.

Why do you think you see so many German tourists everywhere in the world?
They've gotta use up that huge vacation time somehow.

    When I first graduated from College and went to work for a major oil
    company in California, I was supprised to find I was represented by 
    a union which membership was voluntary.  The union was weak and company
    funded, a sweatheart union.
    
    The bad part was the Company used the work rules negotiated to it's
    wishes as weapons against us.  Nor was it an effective advocate in
    greivence or contractual issues.  We had the worst of both worlds.
    I quit in disgust after 15 months.
    
    The sad aspect of union/management is the tension between the parties.
    It must be noted that this tension is a two way street.  Recent
    developments in american labour/managment thought have taken place in
    the last 10 years (Ford Motor).  Unfortunately, the tension is a result
    of the history of unions.  
    
    Before we condemn unions out of hand, we should recognize what unions
    have done for everyone.
    
    1)  40 hour work week with Sat/Sun off was acomplished by labour.
    
    2)  Health benefits in major corporations.  The union people got
        them before managment.
    
    3)  Paid Vacations.
    
    4)  Civil Liberties -- In the early 20th century, the U.S. Gov't
    	intervened with force on behalf of employers routinely against
    	labour.
    
    5)  Child labour laws.
    
    6)  Workplace safety.
    
    7)  Minimum Wage
    
    8)  Social Security
    
    
    Far be it from me to tell you what working in this country would be
    like without organized labour.  Even though we aren't unionized, don't
    think management knows that it could become very appealing if they
    pissed off the employees.  
    
    Usually employees turn to unions as a last resort because most hate the
    rules.  My brother has been an engineer in two plants that we're
    unionized during his tenure.  The experienced employees all rejected 
    the union the first time.  When management didn't get the message,
    they voted for the union the next time.
    
    re: Cathy pitt
    
    
    Colorado brings up a special case.  Most employees in Colorado Springs
    are at the companies mercy.  Most have families and own homes.  In that
    town, DEC is about the only good paying job and most employees were 
    recruited and moved at company expense.  There is almost no secondary
    economy unless you are willing to commute 60+ miles to Denver.  It
    is very difficult to leave without losing everything and to have the 
    company unstable, it is scaring the h*ll out of a lot of folks.
    
    
    
    DEC is not the company I started working for in 1984.  It isn't taking
    steps to reward long term employees.  Management is making decisions
    based not upon the best interests of the company or employees, but
    how to measure up to absurd antiquated financial metrics.  We are in
    a serious condition with most of the talented employees seriously 
    considering leaving because of bad management.
    
    We are ripe for unionazation.  I hope I don't see it.  Nor am I happy
    with the current conditions.
    

	... the local Atlanta papers have had some articles this week
about Apple's employess picketing and talking about a professional asso-
ciation in light of Apple's cost cutting plans.  The articles make it
sound like Apple management is "shocked" that their employees would even
dream of such a thing! :>)

************** NEWS System Article -- DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY **************

Subj:	Computer Industry News from MISG Wednesday 06/19/91
From:	VAXmail Distribution
Sect:	MISG News
Posted:	JUN 19, 1991
				    --------

From:	ICS::CISMAIL "19-Jun-1991 1405" 19-JUN-1991 15:10:32.85
To:	@MISG
CC:	
Subj:	Computer Industry News from MISG

********************************************************************************

    ....

APPLE WORKERS CONSIDER COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

	  "Apple Workers Mull Collective Bargaining Push"
	  (The Wall Street Journal, 06/19/91, PP:B1)

A group of professional employees upset over Apple's recent decision to fire
10% of its 15,000 workers, is considering launching a collective bargaining
campaign, or taking other steps to gain a greater say over management
practices at the world's second largest maker of PCs.  Elsewhere in the U.S.,
computer companies such as IBM and Compaq, chief rivals of Apple, also seem
immune to the type of worker organizing seen at many of the nation's older,
"smokestack" industries.  Leaders of "Employees for One Apple," the dissident
group, say they are considering various avenues to obtain a greater role in
management of the company.  "We're talking about everything from collective
bargaining" to unionization, said one engineer.
    
    ...

    A little late here.....had to chuckle when I read Dick Beldin's
    entry in the other note, i.e. GM officials walking their cars
    through the line and refusing to accept one built on a Monday or a
    Friday......my ex worked for FS with another company.....Chrysler
    Motors was his account....when we were looking for a new car, one
    of the managers he dealt with spelled out Dick's scenario  exactly....
    said all Chrysler execs kept a very close eye to make sure they
    didn't get a "lemon" built on Mon/Fri........so we bought a Chevy
    Impala :-) :-)
    
    Many moons ago (covered wagon days, it seems now) I worked for Ma
    Bell as a service rep in a business office.  I *had* to join the
    union (closed shop); but get this......our union had a "no strike"
    clause in the contract.  In Pennsylvania, Ma Bell employees were
    represented by several unions....the operator and installers were in
    one union, accounting personnel another....and the business offices a
    third.
    
    Operators, installers and accounting types could (and did) strike;
    the lucky ducks in the business offices *couldn't* honor the strike
    or our union could get fined.....so we had to endure being verbally
    abused....and in some cases physically threatened by our friendly
    co-workers.....  Someone else pointed out a valid point....everything
    was based on seniority.......seniority won out every time over
    creativity and/or competence!!
    
    When we left PA for NJ a national strike was pending, so I opted to
    seek employment elsewhere.  My ex worked for RCA's FS at the time....
    he was not unionized and was expected to honor a call-out to a Bell
    accounting site.  Folks walking the picket line hit our new Chevy
    Impala with baseball bats and when my ex rolled down the window to
    tell them to move out of the way or he was going to drive through
    them.....one saintly "lady" threw a cup of scalding coffee in his
    face!!!
    
    I don't think anyone would argue that unions served a purpose at the
    turn of the century when women and children were exploited so badly
    by greedy and corrupt factory owners....but for the most part those
    sweat shops don't exist today.  A few employers here in Georgia have
    been fined of late for inhuman working conditions (poultry industry);
    however, since most of the employees were illegals, a union wouldn't
    have been able to help in any case.
    
    I hope I never see a union at Digital....I'm willing to fight for what
    I need.....have done so in the past and won.....tried to do so 
    recently and lost.  After 12 years with DEC I wouldn't make any rash
    decisions about leaving DEC (from the moans of my co-workers, I guess
    I'm among a shrinking few who enjoy the content of my work); but I
    too find it hard on the stomach to witness some of the shenanigans
    going on with this point in DEC's history.....so who knows.
    
    A friend who is a manager with Southern Bell has suggested I look
    there if push comes to shove.....but I must admit the thought of
    being coerced to join a union that would have marginal impact on 
    improving my lot (based on competence) doesn't really appeal....
    
    Karen
    

    One of my neighbors works at the Electrical Workers shop in Boston.
    Any car in the parking lot *not* of american origin has been 
    vandalized, including hers.  They loved my new Mitsubishi
    (especially the price!) and wanted to get one, but knew it would
    be destroyed.  So, they were kind of (IMO) forced to get the
    Ford Escort (Ford, EHEWWWW!!!).
    
    HRH

How can you tell if a car is made in the US or not?  Certainly not by the make,
as, for instance, many Hondas are made in Ohio and many Chevrolets are made in
Japan.  For all these union workers know, they vandalized American cars!

Paul

ahhh... but if the vandalized an american-built Honda then they were
vandalizing a (gasp!) NON-UNION produced car.

True story: Union auto worker was selected as player in an Ohio Lottery
TV game show. During the course of the show the auto worker 'won' the
choice of a brand-new Ohio-built Honda automobile or a cash prize of
$1000. They chose the cash and indicated that they would not be caught
dead driving a Honda since it was produced by a NON-UNION workforce.

union mentality!

Lee

That isn't a case of "union mentality", that's a case of an
"intellectually challenged" contestant!

:-)

/a

    At GE, the hourly employees are unionized; the salaried employees are
    not.  Come contract time, the salaried employees root for the union,
    because the only way the salaried employees get improved benefits is if
    the union negotiates improved benefits.   That is why GE's medical and
    vacation benefits are vastly superior to Digital, and why Digital's
    benefits get worse with each passing year.  
    
    Before I joined Digital, I worked for a small 2,000 person software
    company that had, among other things, a matching 401K program.
    
    Digital's benefits suck.  I don't know if a union is the answer to the
    steady erosion we have all been experiencing, but it seems to work
    elsewhere.

re .54, .55:

I think this shows that the union member had the courage of her convictions.
Suppose you won something that had been produced under conditions that
conflicted with *your* beliefs (slave labor, for example).  Would you
accept the prize?

BTW, Chrysler gave the woman a car because she turned down the Honda.
A Chrysler dealer gave her a lease on another car.  She ended up with
two cars instead of one.

    Re .57:
    
    What does being a union member have to do with "beliefs"?  Unions
    are supposed to be a mechanism for improving worker's conditions.
    It was not intended to be an ideaology.  If I need to improve MY
    working conditions via a union, does this mean I need to be resentful
    and show animosity towards products, employees, and industries that
    are not unionized?  Based on the case where the person refused to 
    accept the Honda as a prize because it was not produced by a unionized
    work force, does this also mean that very same person forgoes medical
    care because her doctor is not a member of this form of union?
    
    David

re .58 (continuing the rathole):

Your analogy is faulty.  The woman who won the Honda was a member of the
UAW and a Chrysler employee.  Her refusal of the Honda doesn't mean that
she boycotts the products and services of all non-unionized companies and
industries.  Honda has actively fought the UAW's efforts to unionize their
U.S. plant.  If the woman's doctor fought unionization of his practice,
I'd suspect that she'd switch doctors.

Why do people consider loyalty tantamount to stupidity?

re: .59 - loyalty = stupidity

Unless the information about the prizes was incorrect, this certainly was a
case of stupidity.  If she didn't want the Honda, she should have taken it
and then sold it.  After all, even a used Honda Civic is worth more than $1000.

Bob

    Re .59:
    
    Why is my analogy faulty?  The woman stated she did not choose the
    car because it was produced by a non-union workforce.  Chances are
    her doctor does not belong to a "UAW-type" union.  Based solely on 
    her reasons she should be boycotting all non-union products and
    services.
    
>>>    Why is loyalty tantamount to stupidity?
    
    Should we all buy products based on loyalty?  Do you own a non-DEC
    personal computer at home?  If so, why?  If the product is superior,
    and the price comparable you should buy the superior product.  Doing
    otherwise provides a disincentive to innovation and quality.  Why
    should I build a better a better product if people will purchase it
    based on the fact that it was "union" or "American" made?  The attitude
    that people would buy an inferior made American cars over a superior
    made imported car because of loyalty is probably a major reason 
    the American Auto industry is in trouble these days.....
    
    David
                               

    Unions are not necessarily "bad". People who hold to their beliefs can
    do so without reference to other poeples opinions.
    
    I'm saddened to read such a binary set of opinions.
    
    Oh, by the way, this topic would get a really get workout in
    PEAR::SOAPBOX.
    
    	- andy

    re .60
    
    You apparently have no understanding of the concept of a "moral
    decision".
    
    Let me try and explain it: the car offered to the woman was produced
    by a company which whose labour practices she disagreed.  She
    apparently felt that doing business with that company would
    not mesh with her beliefs.  She therefore chose not to accept
    the products of that company.
    
    It is irrelevant to the moral dimension whether she'd be paying
    for the car with her own money, or whether someone else (possibly
    the car company itself, if the prize was donated) was paying
    for it.
    
    Therefore, accepting the car and selling it would be
    acceptable only to someone who wasn't concerned with
    hypocrisy.
    
    One may agree or disagree with the pro-Union stance of
    this woman, but at least she showed her convictions 
    weren't fair-weather ones.

re: .63

 >   You apparently have no understanding of the concept of a "moral
 >   decision".
 
I fail to see where morality enters into the union vs. non-union decision
at all.

Bob

Was the woman who won and refused the Honda concerned about the conditions under
which Honda workers labor and the benefits they receive?  Or was she simply
concerned about them belonging to a union?  Maybe the non-union Honda workers
are better off than the union Chrysler workers.  I don't think it should be
assumed that union workers are always better off than non-union workers.

Paul

    
    I suspect that the woman had an eye on how her neighbors would
    react.. What would it profit her to keep the Honda and become
    an outcast among her union friends ?

Not sure of the particulars of overall union -vs- non-union benefits
differences...  but here is a singular example:

Per the local paper here workers at Honda that were called to serve
during the 'Desert Shield/Desert Storm' crisis received the difference in
pay (between military pay and regular Honda pay) during the duration of
their service, thus their families were not put in a lurch.

The article in the paper indicated that the unionized auto workers at
other plants had no similar benefit, or it was for a short duration (like
a few weeks).

Lee