Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Nope, it's not just you.
    
    It's really a struggle to do anything period. 
    
    If I go on with a list, it just leads to frustration.
    
    Goodluck.
    

    Its not just you, it's the company that's lost.  I work in various
    areas around manufacturing and design engineering and I find a 
    consistant mood.  People are just doing the minimum to get by.
    Nothing, NOTHING, extra!  If they can they are at work from 8-4,
    and work a lot less.
    
    There are some which are trying, but very few.  And upper management
    hasn't the slightest idea of what's wrong.
    
    Our VP iof Engineering made a comment about a year ago--in a fire side
    meeting.  He said, "Moral will improve once profit is back."  Now how's
    that for understanding people?  Or understanding the word
    "Competitive"?  
    
    I wonder in any of our SLT members ever hrard the story of the goose
    that laid the golden eggs, and of the farmer who became so focused on
    the eggs, he killed the goose to get them all at once?
    
    I don't know if there is an answer to your question(s).  Sometimes
    I believe the SLT has an agenda just the opposite of wht they proclaim!
    

    
        If you need more confirmation, it's certainly not just you. 
        The problem's endemic; there are just so few in leadership 
        positions that can motivate and encourage pride in our work. 
        Most of us have been trying to do our best within our own 
        sphere of influence, but it's a sisyphean struggle against 
        the environment and higher management. 
    
        It's bad enough inside, but worse when it spills over 
        to customers.  The attached note of a customer problem 
        [originally posted in the "whatever it takes" topic] shows
        at least four errors (defects under Six Sigma principles) 
        in a small order; how do we apply "whatever it takes" to 
        that, other than the nice ad copy?  The question still stands.
    
    
        Peter
    
    
    
         <<< HUMANE::DISK$CONFERENCES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 3452.150                  "Whatever it takes"                    150 of 194
KELVIN::SCHMIDT "Cynical Optimist"                   59 lines  28-OCT-1994 11:33
                          -< Test case with customer >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Well, let's apply "whatever it takes", which sounds so great on paper, 
    to this customer satisfaction problem, which comes from a close friend 
    in Information Systems in a major Boston-area university.  

    As a reader and sometime contributor to this notesfile, I'm certainly 
    aware of the difficulties of delivering to customers, so it's not a 
    slam against the many folks trying to do their best under more than 
    difficult circumstances.  Still, what will "whatever it takes" mean 
    in this context?


    The message, which I've edited to delete non-relevant comments and names,
    follows:



  I just got this as part of a message from a faculty member who has ordered
  some equipment from DEC:

  >We got the disk drive and the backup tape.  We want that installed before
  >moving on to add the 9-track tape drive, which I hope to do by the
  >end of the calendar year....
  >(I must report, however, that my experience in ordering this equipment
  >from DEC has demonstrated to me how/why they're in such trouble.  Six weeks
  >to deliver a SCSI cable?????  ....
                                  ....   These are not people who live in 
  >a competitive world.)



    A further message, on request, with more information from the faculty 
    member:


  When the unit finally arrived, it came without a SCSI cable, which, of 
  course, it needs.  Now, I imagine I could have gone to a mailorder 
  concern to get the right cable, but I wanted to go through DEC just in
  case.  We called the DECDirect number.  First, I get a representative
  who tells me what I want.  (OK experience there.)  Second, when it's
  clear I want to buy the cable, he transfers me to someone else who 
  actually takes the order.  Again OK experience, except that I've never
  encountered the necessity to talk to two people to buy a part from a
  computer company. (And the necessity to  wait in a queue twice...)
  At the end of ordering and paying for the cable, the fellow says, "that
  will take six weeks."  When I say, "what if I have you express mail
  it to me," he says, "five of those weeks are us finding the part in
  the warehouse and getting it to the shipping department." Overnight
  shipment will only cut it to 5 1/2 weeks....

  Now we have the cable.  So, we've just looked at hooking up the box.  It
  turns out that (1) we weren't given a manual for the disk drive, (2) the
  manuals for the expansion box and the tape drive illustrate different
  DIP-switch configurations than actually occur on the back of the 
  devices.  So, we'll see if Robert can figure it out....  I have a feeling
  it's going to take us a while just to have all the right stuff just to
  start installing the devices. 

|    Its not just you, it's the company that's lost.  I work in various
|    areas around manufacturing and design engineering and I find a 
|    consistant mood.  People are just doing the minimum to get by.
|    Nothing, NOTHING, extra!  If they can they are at work from 8-4,
|    and work a lot less.

	I think it is unfair to say that this is the case for the
	entire company. My impression is that the mood is really
	a function of the group you work in. As soon as your group's
	future becomes very unclear, it does not matter how nice or
	bright working pals you have .. the group will deteriorate very
	fast if something is not done.

	The worst depressions appear to be gone, at least from ZKO. Sure,
	things are far from perfect, but I get the distinct impression
	that we are making rational decisions to sort things out. The
	situation is stabilizing as opposed to rapidly degenerating.

|    There are some which are trying, but very few.  And upper management
|    hasn't the slightest idea of what's wrong.

	Some managers don't have a clue. Some do, and prefer not to
	make unpopular or difficult decisions. And some managers
	are just hanging around while they are looking for a job. They
	are humans just like the rest of us. Of course they do have
	a responsibility by virtue of being managers. But don't underestimate
	the difficulty of getting rid of a not so good middle manager
	without also destabilizing his/her group more than it is worth
	at a given point.
    
|    Our VP iof Engineering made a comment about a year ago--in a fire side
|    meeting.  He said, "Moral will improve once profit is back."  Now how's
|    that for understanding people?  Or understanding the word
|    "Competitive"?  
    
        I'm not trying to defend that VP, but perhaps that was the best he
	could say given the situation. Perhaps he knew things that he
	could not disclose.

	BTW, making constructive lists of problems that ought to be addressed
	is not complaining, in particular if you suggest realistic ways of
	fixing them. Someone who can fix your problems may actually be
	reading this conference.

	>Per

    	It is definitely not "just you". Operationally, this company has
    not struck bottom yet; we continue to be a company that is very difficult
    to do business with. For that matter, this company is nearly impossible to
    do business for.
    
    	But the worst sign of our decline is the ever increasing amount of 
    political hacking and "butt kissing" evident in every organization, and
    nowhere is this butt-kissing more evident than in this notesfile!
    When an organization with the serious and obvious problems that we have
    created begins to only listen to and recognize those people who will say 
    only what the corporate executives want to hear, there can be only one 
    outcome; and that outcome is grim.
                    

    Norm,
    
    You are not the only one who feels this way. Every where you look the
    system seems to be broken. 
    
    All kinds of in-fighting / politicking goes on as to who get the
    credit. There are all kinds of manuvering going on as to who can sell 
    what products. This goes on between business groups as well as inside
    each business group ( within each segment ). In fact I have heard that
    some group managers are encouraging the turf battle.
    
    So called coporate sologan : Whatever it takes " is a joke and just a 
    corporate slogan. Engineering and Mnaufacturing does not seems to 
    understand this. Even for announced products, many options are not 
    qualified and we cannot ship. Now enginnering / manufacturing are giving 
    all kinds of excuses to my customer why they cannot ship a 5.5 Million 
    order till March 95 for a an announced product;-) So much for WHATEVER IT
    TAKES slogan. Sheesh !!!
    

The Problem:	LOW MORALE

The Reason:	Digital is being run Top-Down; Planning and Initiative occur
		at Upper Layers; Individual Contributors React.  It's not that
		Top-Down functionality is bad, it isn't.  It's just that it's
		only part of what's needed.

The Dynamic:	Digital is profitable or not, wins or loses, etc, based on
		Management Planning and Initiative.  This is partly reality
		(the greater part) and partly perception/communications issue.

The Result:	Digital is profitable: MORALE is LOW; Digital is unprofitable:
		MORALE is MUCH LOWER.

The Past:	Matrix Management--which had big problems and anyway was
		unworkable in the current business environment-- was the check
		and balance to Top-Down-edness.

The Solution:	Keep needed benefits of Top-Down: Efficiency, Coordination,
		Consistency; Find ways to increase Bottom-Up and thereby
		gain: Ideas, Individual Contributors Sense of Control,
		Flexibility, Customer Input, etc.

How:		Not easy. Implement specific programs one by one.  What do other
		well run companies do (HP?, Motorola?, FTP?, Compac?).  I'm sure
		many of the employees know what could be done.  Find out and
		implement the best ideas.

Gee, I thought WHAT EVER IT TAKES, was in reference to keeping your
job...meaning jumbling numbers, making numbers, worrying about numbers....

That's all that seems to matter.  Make the numbers, not make sure the customer
is statisfied, or that we do the right thing.

I remember years ago we put out a statement saying:

The CUSTOMER comes first

The EMPLOYEE comes second

The COMPANY comes last

Now it seems to be:

The COMPANY comes first

The COMPANY comes second

The CUSTOMER comes last

(Notice the EMPOLYEE isn't even metioned)

Some on the SLT know what's going on.  They know that things are broken and that
the fixes are not easy.  See if you can find a way to see Kathy Horbach's 
presentation on the corporate strategy.  I saw the same material presented this 
week by Lucia Quinn.  I felt pretty good coming away from that presentation.

Bruce

re: .9
Kathy's last name is Hornbach (with an 'n')

We seem to be incapable of using our leadership technoloy to make life
easier for ourself. Still living with technology from the early
eighties. How about a strucured system for technical information using
world wide web technology for example? I see that something is happening,
but it's use is too random and very good organized. Use of VTX should be
migrated to Mosaic etc. as soon as possible (and that should be today
and not tomorrow).

Olav

    The system is broken ... and, probably can't be fixed ... complex 
    systems that don't work usually need to be scrapped and rebuilt 
    from the ground up.

    The problem is that we don't have the resources to rebuild the
    system and we won't be able to get those resources unless we
    rebuild the system.  So, what do we do?  Let's look at what's
    worked in the past.  The past is seldom a guide to the future
    but, it might be a good place to start. 

    Where did Notes come from ... or SPOOL ... or NMAIL ... or a lot 
    of other products and/or in-house tools that we use every day?  
    Someone saw an interesting problem or in interesting idea and 
    started playing with it.  Someone generated the necessary 
    resources out of his or her own intent.  Some things grew out of 
    "midnight hacks;" some things grew out of getting othere to "buy 
    into" the idea; some things grew out of thin air ... powered by 
    the desire to make it work.

    I don't have the skills or intent for this one.  I'm not even 
    sure that I understand the problem.  Somebody out there does have 
    the skills, understanding, and desire to "make it work."  Go for 
    it.

    Terry

    Re: .4
    I think the previous noter and all of us in here knows that when we say
    something, like about people coming in from 8-4 if they can get away
    with it, they don't mean everyone.  There are so many out there who are
    trying, trying to keep a good attitude and trying to stay motivated.
    
    I consider myself one of those people but I get worried when I deal
    with things which seem so ludicrous...too much so to be real...
    
    Let's see...I have a customer who has a problem so I call one of our
    1-800 numbers to get some insight.  In the past I've always been very
    successful with this method...
    
    I'm told the entire group is in Phoenix...sorry, someone will have to
    call me back.  Then the guy calls me back and says, "Sorry, I don't
    know the answer to that, I'm out of town and don't have access to my
    system," or something to that effect.
    
    So then I tell the customer I'm still working on it and he is being
    patient, no problem.  I put a note in the product notes file.  It was
    never answered.  I figure, okay, nobody knows.  
    
    A few days go by, I call the 1-800 group again and talk to the Networks
    Group, the Low-End Systems Group, the PC Group, the PATHWORKS group,
    and the Netware people and every single time I got the same answer:  
    
    "The people who knew that have been laid off.  We don't have anyone 
    here who knows enough about that."  They did manage to find "an
    old-timer" who was able to answer my question.  Days have gone by but
    the customer is still being patient.  
    
    I get back to the customer, I fax him the part numbers and product
    descriptions, okay, he's ready to buy, he has the money, everything.  I
    talk to the sales rep...the sales rep tells me to give it to the
    reseller.  I'm thinking what????  I have a customer who has the part
    numbers, just needs the quote so they can cut a p.o. and you want me to
    give this away?  Because the rep will get reseller credit anyway.  I
    can understand if the rep is too busy and doesn't have the time
    (actually I can't understand that but I don't want to knock the person)
    but in this case I'd already done all the work so I am confused.  It
    doesn't take but five minutes to go into AQS to generate a quote (I
    think I'll reinstate my old account).
    
    In the process of trying to get this together for the customer I
    encounter being told, "We used to have that product but we don't have
    the personnel in engineering anymore so it was decomitted."  I was
    told, "The person who knew that was laid off so I don't know and I
    don't know what to tell you."  I was told that being an internal I'm
    not allowed to call the 1-800-525-7104 anymore unless I'm prepared to
    have my cost center charged something like $60/hour.  Oh, so now I'm go
    be a god and know it all?  Do I get to go to god training?  Oh that's
    right, it's not in the budget.
    
    I am TRYING not to become frustrated but being able to successfully do
    my job can be very difficult.  I don't know what the answer is but we
    have to do something.
    
    I don't reccomend the solution be to stand up in front of our VARs,
    OEMs and Resellers at Network Academy and continuously tell them how
    this product and that product are either delayed or decommitted because
    of the cuts to our engineering staff.  Doesn't seem like a real
    confidence booster, truthful as it may be.
    
    I hate to see what's happening to this company.  I don't understand it. 
    It makes me very sad because I remember how great DEC was.  We were the
    best and I know we're trying to be the best again but somehow I think
    we're taking the absolute longest, most round-about way to get back. 
    Can we survive that long?
    
    

I can really sympathize with the last few.

From where I see it, we're still stuck with too many people in positions
of "authority" who don't understand enough about our products or the
business we're in to sustain a coherent strategy long enough for the
folks in the trenches to deliver.

The people who are working hard to do the right thing have to deal
with limited or non-existant resources, frequent re-organization,
and often down right resistance from managers who are trying to
"control" the organization in a different direction.

I could give personal examples, but that's not the point.
How can we respond?

So far, I'm still taking personal initiative (unilateral action + risk)
to use the best tools I can get and try to deliver for the customer.
It's frustrating.  I wish I had a better answer.

Somehow, we need to do a much better job of listening and understanding
each other.  Management in this company has failed rather badly.

- Peter

    
    
    All of the internal control systems I've used are dreadfully old and
    some were very badly designed.  Most of the people who tried to fix
    them were sacrificed to the gods of corporate politics.  I once saw a flow 
    chart of the order entry flow that looked like a CPU wiring diagram.  The 
    presenter said, with tongue in cheek, (This is before things really started
    to fall apart) that ONLY Digital could make a system like this work and 
    ONLY Digital would try.  I wondered at the time why Digital didn't have a 
    conventional TP order entry system and later realized the answer.  You
    can't run a world wide TP system on a VAX 780.  The basic design
    phylosophy of the order fulfillment system (POM) was to minimize finish
    good inventory by ensuring that every optiion was shipped to someone. 
    It was based on the assumption that orders would always exceed supply. 
    I would hope it has improved, but I expect it is unchanged.
    
    Achieving even passable results from these systems was the result of
    many people who "did the right thing" and "went around the system". 
    With fewer people, the  systems are now doing their own thing, which
    isn't very good.  The few people who are left, are candidates for
    sainthood.
    
    When Mr. Palmer took over, re-engineering the corporation was all the
    rage.  What happened to it?  If it had been pursued with vigor 
    wouldn't we surprize Wall Street less often?  Might Bill Stuel still be
    with us?  Enquiring minds want to know!
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Here's an example of how our systems work,actually how they don't work:
    
    Bunch of manuals get stuck out into December, entered Oct.
    Called 1st time two weeks, no problem will fix since partialed.
    Call again today. Told they are were on hold. Ask how long?
    Don't know.
    
    Its safe to assume, if I hadn't called they would be on hold until
    next June. And clearly the person at the other end had absolutely
    no clue as to what they were doing or saying. Is it fixed, doubt
    it.
    
    Typical example how everything doesn't work right in this company.
    
    

    We cut costs by removing office space and replacing with employee home
    offices.  But where and when should employees talk with each other?  It
    seems unlikely unmanaged collaborative effort will occur as often;
    perhaps that effort is perceived to have little value.  We've
    successfully cut the cost, but have we improved profitability?
    /Steve

    
    	Oh, we'll have improved profitability...
    
    
    	Even if it is just Bob and Enrico working at home taking orders ;-)
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    RE: .18
    
    If things go any further that's about all who's going to be left
    handling the ever decreasing calls and inquiries for our goods and
    services.
    
    Mav

I call my local DEC (or IBM) office when I got all the info from DEC (or IBM)
in another country and have to place an order, or when the bosses said I have
to call them. You have no idea of the lack of interest. You'd get a heart
attack. 6 months after the first AXP box was out, I visited DEC's headquarter
and showroom in Sundbyberg. In the showroom I found all the PCs you want and
various obsolete VAXstations and not a single Alpha. No kidding. So I looked
for glossies and they were all 6 months old. One glossy about Alphas. So I
walked to the front desk and asked where I could see an Alpha. They asked what
company I worked for. So, thinking I was being clever, I said I work for a US
company that is opening an office in Sweden. I should have brought this friend
who works at Ericsson. You won't believe this. They gave me a card with a phone
number and said to call that number and they would help me. It was the same
address, so I had a peek at their phones and commented that they had given me a
card with THEIR OWN phone number. They said nope, that is indeed the number for
this building, but it rings first at the other helpdesk inside :-) It doesn't
ring on that phone unless the others don't answer, it's for the night shift.
Well, of course I knew this meant they had no intention of lifting a finger to
help me, but being stubborn I insisted that, since I had taken a commuter train
to come here just to see Alpha and I was already in the right building
corresponding to the phone number they were giving me, couldn't they just
expedite the whole thing and let me into the room with the Alphas? They said
no, that's not the way it works. DEC has no Alpha on display. DEC only shows
Alphas by appointment. To get an appointment I have to get a salesman. To get a
salesman I have to call that number. I can call that number from the phone
booth outside if I want. But it's not like, just because I'm already at the
right building, I don't have to call like everyone else. When I call they'll
set an appointment in a few weeks and then I'll be able to see an Alpha. But
not today, there is no way I can see an Alpha today. The showroom does not have
Alphas because DEC does not feel it is appropriate for the showroom to have
Alphas. Now could I please get lost so that they can resume their conversation?

So I did what I should have done right away and simply walked into the inner
part of the building which, with Swedish security, was wide open. Noone asked
me any question. I just walked around until I saw a box that said AXP in
someone's office, I told them my story, and being technical folks they were
sorry and helpful, they wouldn't know what the showrooms had and they have no
control over it anyway, but I was welcome to take a look at their machine. IBM
is a little bit better in that they'll show you everything you want to see, but
if you need some help and you're not from a big company, you're free to get
lost and buy from someone else. In Sweden it's like 80% of the business comes
from a couple dozen huge companies, or something like that, so the salesmen get
lazy and smaller companies can get lost. Over here the DECpc AXP 150 costs
$12,500 and in general all the DEC stuff is 50-100% more expensive, except the
PCs, and nobody cares because the big companies pay anyway. Last week IBM
refused to sell me a PS/2, saying they weren't interested but I could call this
number and ask for a list of retailers that do sell PS/2. It's a national
disease. In what other country would I have to wait 3 weeks for glossies on
RAID controllers for VMS, only to be finally sent AlphaServer glossies? :-) And
find out, 24h later and from DEC USA (no way DEC Sweden would even return a
call in 24h), that the RAID references I had *finally* gotten from DEC Sweden
after barking at them on the phone in English (the only way to scare them into
helping you) and supplying a FAX number for *immediate* use are in fact not
supported under VMS, and, while there are plans to support them under VMS,
there is no estimate yet! Ah well. When I'm not working for the government I do
all my shopping in the US and ship it over, and I never have to deal with these
bozos. DEC is kind enough to supply dual voltage on US models nowadays :-)

    
    	I believe this -1 is the *new* Digital everyone has been talking
    about. The old DEC a salesman would have closed 'em on the spot and
    been on the golf course an hour later.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    
     Computers are commodites, show me items. Witness the retail chains
    and the hands on, touchy feelies you can get there. Alpha/AXP systems
    are not yet commodity items. Heck, we have problems supplying our own
    demand. I want one of those new AlphaStations. I am sitting at a
    customers site right now. Do you suppose the customer might find a use
    for this technology?
     Awaiting critical supply. The move to MASS produce. Let us indulge.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Maybe it is the World...This morning went to the local Ford Dealer to
    have a simple oil change (Flexible Fuel Car, needs special Ford Oil),
    the Service Order taker said that it would take maybe 4 hours if he
    really tried!  This was due to the two hour delay in making a call to
    GE for authorization.  Needless to say I left wondering how they stay
    in business.  So maybe we are not alone.....just a thought.
                                                               

   We fired the Edu rep for Cincy geography.  So he gets a job selling
   computers for a well-established Cincy office equipment company. 
   Wants to continue selling Digital stuff.
   
   University of Cincy really likes the Alpha, but...
   
   Seems there Alpha (running Mathematica) runs 7X the Sparc for small
   models, but 7X slower than the Sparc for large models.  UC attributes
   this to cache-thrashing they've been hearing about.  However, they
   are very excited about the new 275MHz Alphas, and want to see there
   models run on it.  Fortunately, the former DECrep kept in contact
   with all his previous accounts (Digital doesn't think universities
   are worth the effort anymore, I guess).  
   
   So he does the normal channels thing, and calls his channels liason
   within Digital.  Former DECrep tells liason the need for a benchmark. 
   Liason says he'll set it up.  Liason doesn't get back to former
   DECrep for over a week.  Says the benchmark center is willing to do
   it, but that the distributor will have to pay for it.  At this point
   the former DECrep calmly tells the liason that UC also asked for an
   RS6000 quote and that he was going to give them one and that he
   wasn't going to bother with the Alpha quote and then hung up. 
   About a week later the liason calls the former DECrep and says the
   benchmark center will do the job at no charge.
   
   EXCUSE ME!!!
   
   Distributor finds a Digital customer who wants a Digital box and
   wants to see how the Digital box runs a very popular product, and
   Digital wants the distributor to pay for the privilege of selling the
   Digital box.
   
   We are in serious trouble people.

    
    	Just wait a couple of more quarters - you ain't seen nothing yet!
    
    		the Greyhawk

    RE: .23
    
    I don't think it's the world, but you've opened a real can of worms
    with Fleet and Ford.  One of my coworkers and I both tried to get our
    Flexible Fuel cars serviced at the same Ford dealer.  For her car, no
    problem; they made the call to GE for authorization.  I brought mine in
    about an hour later and was told they no longer did business with GE
    because of slow payments.  However, I was also told that it didn't
    matter since the oil change is covered under the warranty for
    these cars.  So, on the same day, one of us paid for the oil change and
    the other didn't.
    
    BTW, did you have any luck getting your floor mats??  That story for my
    car was another comedy of errors?  When they finally came in (2
    months!), the parts department wouldn't give them to me because of old 
    billing problems with Fleet (and this was a different Ford dealer from 
    the one in the first paragraph).  A few days later, they changed their 
    mind.
    
    My local Firestone shop doesn't want to take Fleet work either because
    of slow payments.  They did do emergency work and oil changes for me on 
    my old car, but it was clear that they really didn't want to.  They
    certainly didn't even attempt to do anything resembling preventive
    maintenance because of Fleet.
    
    I called what's left of Fleet at Digital hoping they'd go to bat for us
    on this problem before we're stuck with no place to go for repairs.  I
    was given the 800 number for GE and another one for Ford??
    
    At one time I considered buying a Ford truck; I'm not so sure that's
    such a good idea anymore.
    
    SQ

    	We are only just beginning to observe the affects of TFSO on many
    individuals who made significant contributions. It's sort of like
    pulling on a loose thread and before you know it, you haven't a shirt
    on!
    
    	It will take the rest of us to patch thinsg up, or it will be the
    end.

	... by a LOOOONNNGG shot. At least if what I've heard
today is true, it'll be March before the dust really settles!
December ain't gonna be real jolly for MCS and Admin.

Note 3505.28 by FX28PM::COLE 
    
>	... by a LOOOONNNGG shot. At least if what I've heard
>today is true, it'll be March before the dust really settles!
>December ain't gonna be real jolly for MCS and Admin.
    
    could you elaborate for those of us stuck out on the far reaches of the
    dec empire?

	... 1st week in December, MCS starts a new round of TFSO's, probably 
not ending until March. Week before Christmas: HR, admin, etc. get tapped.

    re: .30
    
    Meanwhile, I hear that DC in our geography will be looking to hire fairly
    recent college grads (read: young, cheap labor) to expand our business. 
    
    I was told that these people are more likely to have a background in
    object-oriented programming than more experienced people
    (...no comment).

    
    I can comment that it makes sense. We have almost zilch experience in
    internet solutions, almost zilch experience in UNIX offerings, almost
    zilch experience in NT and NTAS offerings, almost zilch experience in
    the latest groupware technologies, almost zilch in DOS, in NOSes etc. 
    etc. Shall I go on, now what do we do? Where is the deliverable skill set?
    
    Not a pretty picture, is it. 
    
    -Mike Z.

    re: .32
    
    Question is, Z, whether or not the situation will have really changed after
    the new bodies are hired.
    
    We tend not to hire until we have sold a skill set to a customer. 
    Sales tends not to sell the skill set until they think we already have the
    skill set somewhere.  Result: we tend to hire more people of the same 
    skills.
    
    Hopefully, they'll break the circle when they hire this time.  We'll
    have to wait and see.

    re -.32
    
    	The lucky thing is, no one has a lot of experience in some of
    these areas either (Internet, NT for example).  That means this is
    an opportunity for us...
    
    Brad.

    What we need is access to systems that are running the operating
    systems and applications so we (read:  current internal employees) can 
    pick up those skills so they don't have to go outside for the
    knowledge.  Especially since the internal training is gone which would
    have provided that needed exposure!

   Re: Hiring college grads
   
   The problem with this is approach is that most universities today are
   turning out coders---not computer scientists.  What this means is
   that the college grad can write a program once someone else has
   solved the problem for him/her.  They do not know how to go into a
   situation where a client says, "I need to have the system do..."
   
   If we need coders, then we should contract the work out to some sort
   of bodyshop.  Digital Consulting has proven time, and time again,
   that we cannot compete with low-end, bodyshop coders.  

>>   The problem with this is approach is that most universities today are
>>   turning out coders---not computer scientists.

>>   They do not know how to go into a
>>   situation where a client says, "I need to have the system do..."

This is a semantic quibble, but I tend to think that a software engineer would
be more appropriate than a computer scientist for this type of situation. 
Similarly, it has been said that colleges are indeed turning out computer
scientists (prepared for academic careers and research), but perhaps not
software engineers.

						Brian

    IMHO, what customers want are both analysts (how do we get this
    business opportunity (=problem) solved) and coders who can sit down
    with the customer and produce a PRODUCT. The coders need to also have
    DEC in mind and therefore MAY do a better job than an external coder
    (they will be around afterwards!)
    
    Alan
    

    But isn't this like trying to sell China coffee mugs - washable and
    re-usable, and can be used to hold other fluids even turps for washing
    out the paint-brushes, with good insulating properties so even scalding
    hot drinks can be cupped in the hands on a chilly day for comfortable
    warmth, selling into a culture that still thinks throwaway plastic or
    paper cups are really neat?
    
    Why go to the expense of a large investment in say worthwhile full time
    employees with the skills and potential, and an on-going training
    programme, when you can just briefly buy in the necessary skills from
    an outsider - no pension, med-aid, no human resource management etc.
    
    Biggest problem is eventually all the customers buy direct from the
    papercup manufacturer, and cut the MiddlemanWEwannabe out of it.....
    
    I know it makes sense, I try to buy everything from factory shops,
    distributors etc. and I'm making savings in the region of 50% of shop
    price - just for going direct - a little more legwork maybe but what
    dividends it pays. So am I going to be the only one to look for
    savings? I think not.. And wouldn't I like to pay a premium for the
    Service/Backup. NOPE!. I meddle and fix up things better than half the
    no-training-never-seen-one-before-lost-souls anyway. And I don't have
    to spend half a day (or more) chasing myself on the phone either!
    
    I think we should be building the in-house skills again, training
    again, and getting a lot more involved in the real world, and if that
    means WARPing then hell, get in there!!
    
    If them Custermer whosits use it, we need to use it better!