Conference 7.286::digital

    .. and those of us along Rt. 495 South would love to see Digital
    discover that life (and space) DOES exist south of the Pike ...
    
    /L 

    RE. -2 OTHER THAN PROPETY TAXES---???
    
    Other than propety taxes the benefits reaped by any town with a
    big daytime labor population end up in the pockets of:
    
    the gas stations
    the coffee shops
    the restaurants
    the bars
    the book stores
    the ice cream stands
    the hardware stores
    and all the other places that some out of town schmuck will stop
    at because they need some last minute thing for whatever reason
    and his/her local store in the town where he/she lives will be closed 
    when they get home. 
    
    There is always some fallout in the form of increased revenue and
    jobs for the locals when big business comes to town. 
    

    Don't you remember the deal Ken made with The Duke?  Digital would
    build in Hudson if 290 was extended.  
    
    

    BUT, that's not really an 'extension' of 290.  290 is a federal
    highway, wile the 'extension' is a state road.    This won't work
    in the Marlboro case in that DEC wants to have a new interchange
    installed on an already existing fed highway.
    
    
    Unless the Feds say yes, it won't happen.
    
    
    (Personally, I think it should happen.  I used to work in MRO, and
    it's a bitch getting out of there.  The city has a big traffic problem
    and they know it.    One thing that was pointed out in the article
    when they mentioned that DEC won't pay for any of it, but will donate
    the land.  Right now, the land is almost worthless (from a comercial
    development standpoint) because Marlboro won't let anyone build
    there unless the traffic problem is solved.  If the exit is built,
    the land is worth many-many times more than DEC paid for it because
    it is now prime off-exit land which goes for big bucks)
    
    
    -bill

beg to differ - I believe the 290 extension - up to Rt. 85,
is part of I-290.  That's what I had always been led to believe when 
it was built.

    I don't think so.  If it was, it would be labeled 290, and it is
    not.
    
    I've driven it many times (used to work in HLO) and have NEVER seen
    a sign indicating that it's I290.  Even when you come from 290 towards
    HLO, it just says "To 85" and nothing more.
    
    
    
    -bill

    .4 is right.  But the fact remains that the state built it because
    it wanted Digital (and others) to build in Hudson.  The Marlboro
    situation IS different in many respects. Perhaps expansion there
    is near the end of the line?
    
    Or in time Digital will have bought up all the other buildings to
    the point where it becomes the major beneficiary. THEN will Digital
    have to pay inflated costs to have an interchange?
    
    rmm
    

        BTW, did anyone else wonder where they took those bogus pictures
        that accompanied the article?  I would have thought the picture
        accompanying the headline on the front page of the business
        section would have been Route 20, either over by the District
        Court (a different traffic problem, since they don't have the
        parking they need either), or down near the bottom of the hill
        on Route 20 where all the traffic from the Metro Corp. Park
        goes (and where two lanes become one going up the hill long
        enough to create traffic jams), but NO!  Similarly, where did
        they get that picture of the alleged DEC facility that was
        back with the body of the article?  Surely not any of the MRO
        facilities -- was it one of the LMO buildings, perhaps?
        
        I was also impressed by their lack of effort to get the facts
        straight, like the statement that there were two large office
        buildings at DEC was building a third -- the existing buildings
        are MRO1, 2, and 3, and we're building MRO4 (estimated to add
        about 2K employees to the main MRO cluster, over and above
        those already there plus the employees in nearby facilities
        such as IND, BPO, MET, LMO, UPO, and MOO, just to mention a
        few).  Three already, building the fourth.  It definitely adds
        confidence in their reporting..
        
        Tom

    Any quick-typists that could type this article in?
    
    Gil
    

    The photo looked a whole lot like LM02 to me...I pass it everyday
    on my way to LM04 :-)
    
    Joan
    

    re: .9
          
    Extracted from the vogon news.  Typing is an overrated skill.
    
 Digital - Proposed interchange in Marlborough. Somebody has to foot the bill
   When DEC purchased several hundred acres of meadowlands in Marlborough
 during the 1970s, the company figured it would be avoiding the traffic
 problems that plague Boston 26 miles away. DEC's growth in the area attracted
 other high-tech companies to move there. But now the traffic that jams the
 high-tech office buildings threatens to kill not only DEC's plans, but also
 the plans of dozens of major businesses on one of Massachusetts' fastest
 growing corridors. That has prompted DEC and local officials to make a
 controversial proposal: get the federal and state governments to build a Route
 495 interchange ramp right onto Digital property - and get the federal and
 state governments to pay the $6 million construction cost. DEC and another
 company are offering to donate the land and pay some non-construction costs.
   Federal authorities say they are concerned that drivers might be endangered
 by putting a new interchange just one mile from an existing one. It could be
 many months before the federal government makes a decision. Without the
 interchange, Mayor Chester Conary said Digital could have "major problems" in
 getting approval for new buildings on their valuable land.  DEC's stance in
 refusing to pay for the interchange construction is in contrast to that taken
 recently by Shopper's World of Framingham, who agreed to pay all of the $8
 million costs of a state road interchange to help win approval for a new
 development. DEC officials cast the proposal in a high-stakes manner. They
 said that unless the state and federal government approve and to for the
 interchange, DEC might be forced to move jobs elsewhere. Digital spokesman
 Jeff Gibson said the company should not pay a penny of the construction costs
 because Digital would not be the lone beneficiary. He said it is unfair to
 compare the [sic] Digital's refusal to pay construction costs to Shopper's
 World agreement to pay all costs because the Shopper's World ramp serves only
 that development, while the interchange on Digital property would serve many
 interests. Said Gibson: "The approach we are taking is if the state is going
 to expand and grow then what is needed is an affirmative partnership between
 industry and government." DEC has offered to donate 19 or its 237 acres and
 Metropolitan Life, which owns 400 acres and has plans to expand its
 eight-office complex to about 30 buildings, has agreed to contribute what it
 calls a "six-figure sum" to help design the interchange. The companies
 combined cash and land contributions would total about $3 million.
   Gibson said the Federal Highway Administration officials have told DEC that
 the closeness of the interchanges is not a problem. "We have verbal
 indications from (FHA state chief) Jim Walsh that is is not a problem," Walsh
 said. However, Walsh, the official who would recommend to Washington whether
 to approve the interchange, said "That is absolutely not true. I would not
 give them an indication of the before we even reviewed the proposal." Walsh
 also said he is not particularly impressed by DEC's offer to donate 19 acres
 for the interchange while refusing to pay construction costs. "That donation
 of land is only a small part of the costs," Walsh said. "The donated land is
 unusable unless Digital has the interchange, so they are giving up nothing.
 They want to externalize costs and internalize profits ... that is nice and
 convenient for them, but our concern is that the interstate is not degraded or
 made unsafe. We will make our recommendation based on how it affects the
 interstate." Because the traffic problems have become one of the city's
 biggest political headaches, Mayor Conary and other officials said there would
 be sizable pressure against approving new developments unless the traffic is
 "mitigated."
	{The Boston Globe, 6-Sep-87, p. 87}

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1398   Wednesday  9-Sep-1987   <><><><><><><><>

    I wondered about the argument over building a new 495 interchange
    back when I was still working on MRO1 (although anyone who thins
    that traffic in Marlboro is awful has never had to commute to somewhere
    with REALLY bad traffic, like downtown Boston - of course, it is
    possible that it has gotten a lot worse over the past two years
    since I left that group), since there are plenty of interstates
    with exits that are less than a mile apart - try route 128 (now
    relablled insterstate 95), for example.  There are even some along
    route 495 further north, although they seem to make a separate
    entrance/exit lane (which merges back into the main roadway) for
    them - which is a real convenience.  Maybe its a new restriction?

  There are two interchanges a mile apart on I-495 in Haverhill,
which is about the same size (population) as Marlboro. However,
those interchanges were built 24 years ago and the rules may have
changed.
  The plant shown in the picture (LMO2) does cause traffic problems
but it is peripheral to the issue of the I-495 interchange. The photo-
grapher probably took a picture of it because it is close to the Marl-
boro Historical Society house, at which he began and ended the article.

    There is a distinction between rural areas and city areas.  In the
    city, there can be interchanges every mile, but in rural areas they
    must be (I think) 3 miles apart.  The problem is that Marlborough
    is still considered a 'rural' area (at least by the feds)
    
    
    -bill
    

    City is 1 mile.
    Rural is 2 miles.
    
    The problem here is that Marlboro and Westboro want to be known
    for their 'rural' nature and then claim 'city' status when they
    want something from the feds.
    
    The distance from Rt 20 to Rt 9 is about 3.8 miles. No matter which
    way they try to move the intersection, they can't make it fit the
    'rural' definition.
    
    Met Life owns many 100's of acres along Rt 20. If the off ramps
    only supported DEC that would be one thing. Look at all ot the existing
    businesses at Cedar Hill Road  and the whole park. DEC would not
    be the only ones to use the ramps.
    
    The smoke about the Historical Society should never have been in
    the article as that is part of a different issue with the city of
    Marlboro and the Holiday Inn folks. There is no way that the area
    near Honeywell would be served by the new ramps.
    
    HP

    re: .9
    
    I'm the one who entered the article in VNS. It ran for quiet a piece
    and the VNS version consists of extracts the newspaper's version.
    Although I believe I did a reasonable job pulling out most of the
    pertinent info, if you want the whole story you should read the
    Globe.
    
    						Trace
    						VNS Computer News

    re .15
    
    Marlboro is a city.
    
    Westborough is a town.
    
    -monty-from-Westborough-

    re:.15,.17
    
    Newburyport (small pop.) is a city.  (It has a mayor.)
    Framingham (big pop.) is a town.  (It elects town meeting members.)
    Marlborough is a traffic jam.

    Form of government or municipal title isn't what the feds are
    concerned with; the distinction is over "urban" vs. "suburban" sections
    of road.  According to the Glob story, it's 3 miles between suburban
    exits and 1 mile between urban exits.
    
    Personally I think that anyone who'd be confused by two exist a
    mere 1 mile apart doesn't deserve to be driving...
         fred

Another building that will come on-line within a month is the PDM facility 
(formerly the Concord Data Building on William street right across I495 from 
MRO). This building is just in the process of being fit up and they're already 
talking about building an addition to it. The facility will house the 
Corporate Systems Group (marketing). This building is 300K sq ft and will 
house a few hundred employees.

I'm not sure why everyone is complaining about the traffic in Marlborough. It 
really isn't that bad (and I've lived/travelled/worked in the 
Hudson/Marlborough area since 1978). Even LMO2 is really not much to complain 
about. Is a line of 5-10 cars considered a traffic jam in Marlborough?

Jim (site I.S. Manager for a number of Marlborough facilities: UPO, LMO, BPO,
							       MOO, RWC, PDM)

>Hudson/Marlborough area since 1978). Even LMO2 is really not much to complain 
>about. Is a line of 5-10 cars considered a traffic jam in Marlborough?

  Yes. You have to go thru two such lines when leaving LMO during the evening
rush hour, one at the end of Locke Drive and one at the intersection of Felton
St. and Route 20. I estimate 5% of those can avoid the first 'jam' and 25% can
avoid the second by taking an alternate route. And it's not just the lines of
cars, it's the blind spots at both corners. 
  There are worse traffic jams near and inside Route 128, but the traffic is
bad in Marlboro compared to any of the adjoining towns, with the possible ex-
ception of Framingham.

        It seems as though the City of Marlboro and the State of
        Taxachusetts aren't particularly interested in addressing the
        traffic problems, either.  Route 20 is a joke.  There are two
        main areas where traffic from the MRO area funnels onto Route
        20.  One is at the foot of the hill by the Metropolitan Office
        Park, where at least there is a traffic light (but there is
        still often a backup of 30 to 40 cars to turn right up the
        hill to I-495 at evening rush).  There's a light at the top
        of the hill (at Glen Street), and it seems to still be set
        for the traffic patterns when Glen Street was the main road
        from Route 20 over to Forest Street and MRO.  Just further
        east is the Felton Street intersection mentioned in .20, where
        there is no traffic light, even though a major traffic pattern
        in the evening is people turning left (across Route 20) to
        get to I-495.
        
        The other way out of MRO to Route 20 and I-495 is to go east
        to the intersection with Williams Street, over by the district
        court.  This intersection doesn't have a light, either, even
        though there is a lot of traffic turning left out of Williams
        Street.  Not to mention the traffic congestion in that area
        due to street parking because there isn't enough parking lot
        space for the courthouse.
        
        The traffic patterns in and around the Route 20 / I-495 area
        are a real mess, and nothing seems to be being done to try
        to at least slap a bandaid on it.
        
        Tom

RE: traffic lights

	In order to do something about the traffic lights, the State
has to come out to MRO from their hiding place somewhere in Boston and
do a 'survey' and 'study' the traffic patterns for some time, to make
any changes.  Downtown Northboro, another traffic-horror-show, will
finnaly get traffic lights, in 2 years....which by then will probably
be worse..

    
.21>        It seems as though the City of Marlboro and the State of
.21>        Taxachusetts aren't particularly interested in addressing the
.21>        traffic problems, either.
    
    	Is this yet another attempted dig at Massachusetts from Hew
    Hampshire?  Given the state of affairs of traffic in Nashua and
    vicinity, I would observe that no state seems to have a monopoly on
    poor planning for traffic.  I'd much rather work in MRO than in ZKO or
    MKO, if I had to choose strictly on comparison of traffic problems.
    (And, yes, I have worked in both MKO and ZKO, and had many meetings at
    MRO.) 
    
    	If you were just trying to be funny, OK, I'm just grouchy today.
    
    		David

    Digging aside, the whole concept of traffic in all of New England
    is a Joke.
    
    Roads follow cow-paths, or besotted explorers in the various wanderings
    for no other purpose than to get there from here in the most contorted
    way possible.
    
    Marlboro, without ANY state surveys or bulls___ could easily put
    traffic cops at the corner by the courthouse and retime the light
    at Ames street and fix 30% of the problem. The Glenn street "solution"
    and I use that term jokingly, was to make it a pseudo-one-way street
    but leave the light for the folks that live there. It needs retiming
    as well. When I worked in MRO it took 10-15 minutes to go the 1
    mile to I 495. Now I am at UPO and, thank God, I only have a right
    turn onto 20 to get there (time << 1 minute).
    
    The Exit is *NECESSARY* for the safety of motorists, not convenience.
    The felton street intersection across from UPO at rt 20 is incredibly
    dangerous! I see an accident there every couple of days (my office
    has a window through which I have a prime view (I've even been a
    witness) so I know)
    
    The requirement for "rural" of less than 2 miles is a non-sequitor;
    while true, the fact is that this section of I495 is exempt from
    being able to have the new 65 MPH speed limit because it was
    specifically classified by US Congress as being "Urban" and hence
    exempt. (never mind that DuKAKA head is an A__hole about the 65
    mph thing anyway!).
    
    The interchange will only become more necessary as work on Mro4
    and a possible Mro5 progress. As well as metropolitan, et al.
    
    David (who thinks that roads, taxes and politicians in the East
    are one big joke, but all the jobs are here for now!)
    

                Re .24 and the part that states that "Marlboro could
        easily re-time the light" (I hope my memory was accurate
        enough).
                
                The way this crazy state works, any traffic light
        requires state approval for its placement and cycle, especially
        on state roads! Yes - It IS crazy, but that's the way it is.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
                
 p.s. I can point you to numerous lights that are on flashing because
        the state won't approve a reasonable cycle!

Re: < Note 382.24 by KACIE::WAGNER "I want my <esc> TV!" >
>                -< Roads in the east suck, politicians worse! >-

>    David (who thinks that roads, taxes and politicians in the East
>    are one big joke, but all the jobs are here for now!)

SET FLAME_ON/INTENSITY=BLAST_FURNACE

So buzz off and go back to your precious west.  Go back to where there's
no water.  Go back to the miserable traffic of Houston or LA.  Go back
to Denver where there the pure mountain is full of smog.  Go back to
Arizona with its deserts full of toxic waste.  Go back to the west with
its barren wastelands full of nothing.  Go back to southern California
with its population of airheaded bimbos of all genders.  Go back to the
LA basin where the smog will kill you.  Go back to your precious Texas
where the population was put into an uproar because, God forbid, high
school athletes actually had to pass a class or two in order to be
eligible to play.  Go back to your wonderful west that gave us such a
loser of a President like Ronnie Raygun. 

SET FLAME_ON/INTENSITY=SIMMER 

Every part of this country (planet even) has problems of some sort,
usually associated with politicians.  New England is no exception. 
Neither is the West, the South, the Plains, or the Midwest (my place of
origin).  So lighten up.  If you dislike it here so much, then leave. 
Vote with your feet. 

SET FLAME_OFF 

As to the proposed interchange on 495, while I agree that there is a
safety problem at Felton Street and Route 20, what about the line of 
cars waiting in line to exit from 495 southbound to Route 20?  I've 
occasionally run into this when going to a first thing in the morning 
meeting at one of the MRO's. 

Bob

    Re: .26     Ouch...watch where you shoot and preferably not from
    		the (l/h)ip.
    
    	I'll start checking to see if I glow in the dark any day now.
    
        To prevent WWIII I'll withhold comments on where I've been that
    	were "less than desireable" by me. Presumably we all have our
    	"pet" places. Being a military brat and having seen the world,
    	each place has it's problems. Why, I could go on for hours
    	about traffic out here, but no more flames please....
    
    			Toxically Wasting away in Arizona....
    
    						Warren
    
    $set mode/humor=off

    In Massachusetts I believe there is a law that states that a traffic
    light will be provided by the state on state roads if two deaths
    have occured because of the traffic problem.
    
    Chelmsford Center at the intersection of route 129, 110 and 4 is
    a nightmere.
    
    KMc
    

OK, everyone, calm down.  I've been asked to hide or delete .26, but I won't,
because I think it's an almost justifiable reaction to all the Mass-bashing
that's been going on.

But please cut the bashing, now!

/john

  The UPO plant is about 8 stories high and has an excellent view
of the 'accident generator' at Route 20 and Felton St.  I would be
a nervous wreck if I had to look at that 'view' every day.
  Yes, a traffic light on this corner would cause the traffic to
back up further onto the ramp off I-495. But this is the outside
ramp, which means there is plenty of room for traffic to back up 
without blocking travel lanes. Traffic engineers are more concerned
about backups on 270 degree ramps, which can block traffic entering
the freeway on the adjoining 270-degree loop. That is unlikely to
happen at I-495 and route 20 because less traffic makes the turn
from I-495 north to 20 west than from I-495 south to 20 west.
  I heard second-hand that the state is committed to installing a
traffic light on the Felton St. corner, but I don't know what the
time frame is. I also heard that the possibility of a backup onto
I-495 is the main reason why the state didn't install a signal
earlier.

        A light at Felton Street would make more sense than the current
        light at Glen Street.  I have little sympathy with the folks who
        live down in the Glen Street area who forced (through local
        politics) many of the changes in traffic patterns that have
        aggravated the situation.  Agagagagagag..
        
        And, for what it's worth, I believe the top floor in the UPO1
        facility (the one closest to Route 20) is the fifth.  But I
        could be wrong.  The view of Route 20 from UPO2 is largely
        screened by UPO1.  

        Tom

    I agree, trash the Glen Street light and put one in at Felton St.
    
    BTW UPO1 is 5 (count-em) stories, I'm on the 4th facing Rt 20.
    
    BAD intersection!!
    
    David
    

Re .30:

Traffic engineers should definitely not be worried that traffic might back
up from the outer ramp onto I495.  I saw it happen a few years ago around
8 AM a number of times (many of the times I was traveling there at that
hour, which I tried to minimize).  I'd generally go a little further,
exit at Rt 20 east, and go around by the courthouse to avoid the wait
on the ramp (and highway).

Unless improvements have been made to Rt 20 immediately west of I495 which
more than compensate for the area's recent growth, I see no reason to
believe that it doesn't happen more often now.
				/AHM

    
    re:.26
    
    John, have you suddenly gotten conservative? you should really have
    SET FLAME ON = SOLAR CENTER
    
    There is so much that can be done to eliminate all the hate and
    discontent people tend to exhibit, 
    
    things like if you don't like it here --- move OR take matters firmly
    in hand and got to the selectmens or town council meetings OR vote
    against the politicians you don't like  OR run for office your self
    and change things from the inside.
    
    I am totally unfeeling when someone complains about a politicians
    actions and then says they didn't even bother to vote much less take
    the time to attend a meeting.
    
    As far as more crooked policos in the east than elswhere, I don't
    think so. Maybe they just asren't paying the media enough to vcover
    things up like they do elsewhere.
    
    SET FLAME = OFF 
    
    If you think I 495/20 is bad try I 290/20 sometimes.ho ho ho 
    didn't vote 

    .33:
    
    Alan, you knave!  Encouraging people to go around the lake and by
    the courthouse will make the Williams St. intersection worse, and
    add to the traffic going down Williams & Forest Streets (where I
    happen to work).
    
    Fink!
    
    Dick

Re .35:

Need directions on how to navigate the housing development alongside Glen St?
When they started closing it off I even got past the cop that was illegally
turning traffic away by telling him I was "going to Ripley (Street)". I
was, but I wasn't stopping there - I was also going to MR1.

I didn't violate the one way sign on Sandini, though, although a couple of
times I almost got hit by Massholes that did.
				/AHM

    Thanks for the offer, Alan, but I'm usually headed to IND, on the
    east side of 495;  going through Glen St. means joining the packs
    of cars headed to MR.
    
    It seems like there's more traffic recently on Williams and Forest
    Streets lately, heading to either MR or over the hill (presumably
    to Metropolitan).  I suppose a lot of it is traffic out of the east,
    heading west on US 20, but couldn't guess how much.
    
    Anybody know about the traffic regulations, etc., regarding
    ultralights?	:-)
    
    Dick

    I live on the north side of 20 and use Felton St. to gain access
    to 495 south. If there was an reasonable alternative, I would
    avoid it like the plague. It is very dangerous. A light at that
    intersection would be the greatest thing since sliced bread. The
    light should be on a trip so as to only tie up rt20/495 on an
    as need basis. This might also help people at the LMN plant.

Re .37:

The traffic on Williams Street is about to go from bad (if thats what you 
think it is currently) to worse next week when around 120 people move into the 
new PDM facility (formerly Concord Data Systems). Hundreds more will move in 
in late December. And dont forget MRO4, which will be occupied sometime next 
year! Beam me to my office, Scotty!

Jim