Conference 7.286::digital

    What do you perceive the problem to be?  Can someone who knows
    your badge number learn about your DCU account, or remove money
    from it?  If so then I agree that there is a problem.
        John Sauter

    When doing business at the DCU window, I'm normally required to
    present other identification - usually my (picture) badge.  Without
    the badge I have to answer a question or two (mothers maiden name,
    date I started, or some such).  The teller machines and dial-up
    system require the security confirmation code.  So anybody who wants
    to fool with your account needs at least one other identification
    besides badge number.
    
    I'd say the level of security is about as good as for any commercial
    bank account I've had.
                         
    			/Dave

    With a conventional checking account, anybody to whom you have
    written a check can know your account number. This isn't all
    that different.

    I've always had a gripe with DCU in that they don't use
    the account numbers printed on the checks to identify accounts
    at the window.  The checks come with an account number printed on
    the bottom (and the deposit slips).  On more than one occasion,
    DCU has received a check of mine, and charged the wrong checking
    account (we have two, one for business travel and one for personal)
    in one case they paid $25 in service charges that we were billed
    because of their mistake which caused a check to bounce.
    
    Also, as to anyone having access to your checking account number,
    I disagree as to the level of security mentioned in a previous note.
    I didn't walk around with my checking account number proudly displayed
    on my chest until I started up my DCU account.  My commercial bank
    checks are seen by three people: 1)myself or wife 2) someone whom
    I intend to pay monies to or 3) bank personnel. In the case of
    DCU, my account number is open for perusal by EVERYONE I meet at
    work.

    How does knowing your account number enable someone other than
    a DCU employee to peruse your account?
        John Sauter

    Re: .6
    
    Maybe it was instructions on how to peruse DCU accounts? I know
    how easy it is, because every time I've called DCU for an "Account
    Balance" they ask me two things: 1) Badge number, and 2) Social
    Security number. Neither of these two items is top secret to someone
    who really wants to know.
    
    						Warren
    

Reply .6 contains detailed instructions for a (probably) rather effective scam
to steal money from someone's account at any bank.

I did not feel that it was appropriate for this conference.

I would have posted the reason for hiding it here in this conference but hid it
Friday evening just as I was heading out the door (I felt hiding it immediately
was more important than stating why) and only had time to notify the author and
the other moderators.

/john

    re: .8--``...to steal money from someone's account at any bank.''
    
    Was .6 relavent to this topic?  That is, does the scam require
    knowing only a person's account number?  If so, then there should
    be pressure brought onto DCU to close this security hole.  However,
    DCU will probably be unconvinced unless they can be told how their
    system can be broken.  Perhaps the author of .6 could convey this
    information to DCU's management?
        John Sauter

I don't want to get a game of twenty questions going about the hidden reply.

The author probably thought it was relevant to the topic in that his premise
was that there are lots of ways to defraud someone, and knowing a badge or
account number is only one way.

His scam works without initially knowing the account number and involves more
than knowing just the account number.  Thinking about how DCU operates, it
might be even easier at DCU than at a commercial bank.

The scam is a confidence scam and works by fooling the bank into ignoring any
procedures which might be established to prevent it.

/john

    This topic is about the proposition that knowing your account number
    can permit a person to invade your privacy, or harm you in some
    other way.  225.6 does not appear (from the description in 225.10)
    to contribute to that proposition.
    
    Does anyone still claim that knowing your account number is harmful?
        John Sauter

    Here's a good example I believe.
    
    For about 10 days, around Thanksgiving, DCU Easy Cash cardholders
    in the Chicago area were unable to use PLUS Network ATM's.
    
    I called DCU about the problem, they investigated, and agreed that
    there was a problem, but that the problem was with the Plus Network
    and not DCU.  Anyway....I asked to have money wired from DCU to
    Western Union.
    
    DCU asked me for my badge number and the amount I wanted
    transferred (I don't recall whether or not they wanted my Social
    Security number.
    
    Several hours later, I went to a local Western Union office, presented
    some identification, and got my $400.
    
    For $10 I can get an ID card with any name/picture on it that I
    want.
      
    "Jackin' the House" Bob 

    Does anyone have an example in which *only* the badge number
    was needed, or the badge number together with the person's name?
    (After all, your badge contains your name, too.)
    If Bob in .12 could be sure that no additional identification was
    required then I would agree that DCU's authentication procedures
    need tightening.
        John Sauter

The scam in .6 could be carried out at the DCU with only the badge number and
name, as long as the DCU employees were taken by the scam and ignored DCU
procedures at the "climax" of the scam.

/john

    
    
    re: 225.13 / 15
    
                          <GOOF is putting it mildly>
    
           I have NEVER been asked to present my BADGE when withdrawing
    or depositing money into my checking or savings account at the Credit
    Union. (with the exception of a drive up window). I work an "off-shift"
    so the possiblity of a DCU teller knowing me by face is out of the
    question. I do 99% of my transactions via the ATM or MONEC machines.
    This may not be the case at all DCU's, but it most definitely is
    where I do my banking.
    
    Carol

    It sounds like DCU's procedures for identifying accountholders
    needs to be updated.  If there are rules they are apparently not
    being strictly obeyed.
    
    Also, all of us should check our monthly statements carefully for
    unauthorized withdrawals.  Bringing these to the attention of
    DCU might cause them to improve their procedures.
        John Sauter

     I have  been  a member of DCU since it opened up (~6-1/2 years ago).
     In ALL of  that  time,  I have only been asked for my DEC Badge less
     than 5 times, regardless of the transactions that I have made!!!
     
     Since I have worked in the Mill almost all of  that  time [I did "do
     some time" at PKO3, ~15 months] and the turnover of DCU personnel is
     massive,  they can't know who I am (it seems like every month  there
     are  new  faces behind the counter).  The Mill DCU caters to a  very
     large DEC population  and is (sort of) the headquarters branch, thus
     if they are that loose here, there isn't much hope of improvement in
     the smaller branches.
     
     Also,  I  accidently  stumbled  on the COMPLETE listing of  ALL  DEC
     Employees (even GIA, etc.) on microfiche in the Mill Library.   They
     have a set of fiche which lists everyone by badge #  and  name.   It
     contains the Employee's name, badge #, location, DTN, Dept name.  It
     is in  a  reference  book which someone left out on the counter near
     the terminal used  for  catalog searches.  So, if you want to find a
     DECie, all you have  to  do  is visit your local DEC Library.  [BTW:
     In Europe, ELF also shows  Badge #'s.  In the US, we don't have this
     capability,  since Personnel determined that this  would  compromise
     "personnel confidential" information!!!]
     
     In light of this, using a Badge # as some sort of "security" is very
     misleading at best.
     

>    the COMPLETE listing of  ALL  DEC Employees (even GIA, etc.)

Such a thing supposedly does not exist, and is part of the reason GIA are not
in ELF.  I just went to the King Street library; here the listing is U.S. only.

/john

        My wife, Roberta, works in the Bedford office of the DCU.
        If she doesn't know the member, she checks their picture
        badge.  If the member doesn't have a picture badge, she
        requests some other form of ID with a picture.
        
Jim Stratton
        

>                          -< They are careful in BUO >-
>        My wife, Roberta, works in the Bedford office of the DCU.
>        If she doesn't know the member, she checks their picture
>        badge.  If the member doesn't have a picture badge, she
>        requests some other form of ID with a picture.

As one of Roberta's regular customers, I must agree with the statement
above.  I have seen her do this.  (Since we are Corporate Ed Services,
there are a lot of non-regular customers at DCU here).  The tellers at 
BUO have always acted in what I would consider to be a very cautious
manner --- I have even seen them refuse to give information/cash to 
people without proper ID ---- They said, "We'll mail the info to the 
address that's on file [for this account]."  Since I am a regular and
they know me, they don't always ask to see my badge, so I guess if
I had a twin brother he could get my money .....

I went to the MKO branch once and it seemed that they didn't run as tight
a ship there as they do here at BUO.

Frank

    I've seen the tellers at the DCU in HLO check picture badges if they
    don't know someone. 
    
    		Dave

re:6

I am the author of not .6 and have have to say I'm sorry for not 
replying earlier, but I've been away.

I had presented a scam which I learned while in a course on criminology.
The instructor went to great pains to show us how the professional is 
rather quite clever and shouldn't be inderated.  As John had said in an
earlier note I had pointed out that this whole thing works by getting 
people to bypass the normal way of business.  I'm afraid I can't go into
the details hear, but I think everyone agrees if you can convince 
someone not to ask for your badge, the system is is deep trouble.  I 
suspect even by publishing the locations that don't check would be a
security hole.

BTW - one method I feel is safe to put in here is simply to wear a 
clerical costume.  after all, everyone knows they are trustworthy  :-)

-mark

    Please excuse this question, but it comes from a European!
    
    If the DCU is as bad as this notesfile seems to indicate, why don't
    you all take your money elsewere? Or have I missed something?
    
    Gavin

    DCU is convenient because it has offices in Digital's buildings.
    No other financial institution is permitted to do this.
    (It's sort of like the cafeteria.)
    
    Also, the problems described here also happen at banks, at least
    in the U.S.A.  I understand that European banks are significantly
    more advanced than ours.  For many years the U.S. banking system
    was sheltered by regulations that effectively prevented competition.
    That may be the cause of our backwardness.
        John Sauter

So, has anyone actually *documented* another 
(unscrupulous) person withdrawing money from 
an employee's account?

Or, to resurrect an overused phrase,
"Where's the beef?"

Bruce (whose one problem with DCU was cleared up
in about 30 seconds, once a statement was produced 
[thanks to the tellers at BUO]; that was someone else's
check drawn against my account by mistake)

    RE: end of .23
    
    I walked into my local DCU branch dressed in clerical garb.  I told
    them that my badge number was 1 and that my name was Ken Olsen.
    They did not give me any money.
    
    Why?

     re .27:
     
     Did this happen on a Wednesday?  Perhaps the employee whose name and
     badge number you used did not have any money in his account.
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    Hi.  I'm the one who started this note in the first place and would
    like to add a few more pieces of information.
    
    In the future, you will be able to get anyones badge number from
    ELF - as you can in Europe currently (from what I understand). 
    It is also my understanding that the legal department has approved
    the display of badge numbers.  (I work with the project manager
    for ELF enhancements - which is where I'm getting this information.)
    
    And last, the reason I brought this up in the first place is not
    because I've ever had a problem, but because I think that the situation
    poses a potential problem.  Many of the "famous" banking disasters
    that resulted because people were able to do something that they
    shouldn't have been able to do - are the result of some very clever
    person taking advantage of a hole in the system that no one else
    thought of.  Any bank, including the DCU, should be concerned with
    preventing such things and shouldn't take an attitude of "why are
    your worried, it's never happened before." 
    
    Wasn't the stock market crash of '29 caused, in part, by a system
    that allowed purchasing on a very large margin?  That wasn't a problem
    before the crash either.  It took a disaster to get the regulations
    changed.
    
    Sally
    

>  In the future, you will be able to get anyones badge number from
>  ELF - as you can in Europe currently (from what I understand). 

What possible use could anyone else have for someone's badge number to be
displayed so prominently?

-Joe

    re .29: Yes, ELF here in Europe has badge numbers (for US emplyees
    also). I just found out yours, Sally... not that I have any use
    for it.
    
    If it's not displayed in the US now, all you'd need would then be
    an account on a European Easynet node.
    

>What possible use could anyone else have for someone's badge number to be
>displayed so prominently?

In Europe we have many internal applications that use badge numbers (employee
expenses is one), ELF is a good look up system for this.

Many other DEC internal functions also ask for a badge number for forms, they
cannot now get them from ELF.

What possible harm can come from displaying a badge number so prominently,
apart from highlight the weak security procedures of an employee bank?

Dave.
P.S. Who ever tried to withdraw Ken's funds - maybe he dosn't have an account?

    Since you are supposed to wear your badge in plain view (can't you
    see the clip sticking out of my pocket? :-) ), the fact that ELF
    shows your number is kind of a moot point.  Plus you register for
    training, shows, get petty cash... with your badge number.  The
    problem seems to boil down to the fact that our checking account
    number is more available than those of most (any) other banks. 
    I hadn't thought about it much since I automatically put my picture
    badge down on the counter when I do a transaction and the teller
    always looks at it.  Maybe we shouldn't offer identification until
    asked and complain if we aren't?
    
    						Mike

You don't even need an account in Europe; just define your ELF server to be
located in Europe.

/john

        Well, sometime back I suggested that the new picture badges
        have imbedded wire encoding (like magstripe, but non-magnetic),
        which then could be used for building/computer room access
        and even ID for DCU.
        
        But then, I was arguing with a facilities group that put three
        independent security systems into three buildings within 500
        yards of each other.
        
        q
        

re: .33

	Unless you have picked my pocket, you do not know my badge number.
	Soon, someone will let you electronically pick it :-)

	My comments are really on a need-to-know basis.  While someone
	pushing some forms somewhere needs to know my badge number, the
	general Digital population does not.  So why should they know it?
	Any problems that arise are only potential problems to be sure
	but I was born and raised as a paranoid. :-)

	As to being able to see any badge number you want, that does not
	quite hold water.  Giventhe size of Digital, the number of employees
	that one encounters is a small percentage.  The percentage of those
	that wear the badge where it could be seen is not 100.  Of those,
	the number that you would be willing to stare at to see the badge
	number is even smaller.

	Has anyone considered the possiblity of actually forging a badge
	(for which the actual employee number would be really useful at a
	DCU)?

-Joe

	

	re .27: Elliott, I wouldn't give you any money if you were
	dressed as the Pope:-)

        The employees badge number is the information asked to
        authenticate any changes made to the record for a user
        (I assume it is in addition to the account and node names).
        Displaying the badge number makes this query worthless.
        
        					B.J.

    As for who to talk to about the DCU's use of badge numbers, you
    can call John Tilley at the DCU main office (DTN 223-6735) or
    (617)493-6735.  I have been talking to him about this but it's going
    to take more than just my complaining.
    
    As for ELF, I believe that the problem is our badge numbers are
    how we are identified in the corporation and there has to be some
    such key to the files.  I've been trying to get the ELF project
    manager to answer some of these questions in this note but haven't
    been able to yet.
    
    Seriously, call John Tilley.  He will hate me for it, but the important
    thing to me is the security of my money.  
    
    Sally
    
    
    

      Re displaying badge numbers
      
      Digital sites having DECmail and connecting to MTS mostly use
      badge number as the primary mail account identification.  This
      is visible in every message sent.  In particular, when a message
      is sent via the MRGATE V1 gateway to a VAXmail recipient, the
      badge number is displayed as part of the return address.

      Dave C.

    Some databases inside DEC (IDECUS registration for one) also ask
    for date of hire as a further ID.  I agree that badge numbers are
    not suitable as a "password" for accessing or changing information
    in files on employees.  I can't quite see an employee-chosen
    PIN being added to every database and application, though that's
    what would make the most sense.  Perhaps one needs some sort of
    central verification system on the network?  Or there's the weaker
    method of computing a password based on information already in the
    files and a non-public algorithm for checking it.
    				Steve

RE: .38

ELF deals in badge numbers because the corporate personnel files are indexed
by badge number, and that is where the update information for ELF comes from.
The badge number challenge when one updates one's personal record is intended
as a last check, after the node::username are validated, to prevent petty
mischief (e.g., you leave your terminal unattended, somebody comes in and
runs ELF and tries to change your record).  Most people I know have enough
trouble trying to remember their own badge number, let alone those of other
people.  Of course the information is widely available and it isn't a very
secure challenge, but it was never intended to stop a true planned malicious
attack.  ELF V1 was not originally spec'd to display badge numbers anywhere
or at any time except when run from system accounts.

--PSW (member of the ELF V1 Design Review Board)

Re .-3:  Refer to the DCU note in this file (and the one in consumer) 
for data on talking to the Customer Relations folk at DCU.

Re .-2:  I already have a PIN for telephone access to the Employee 
Stock Plan, and another one for access to SAVE, (besides countless 
other ones for purposes outside of DIGITAL) what's one more?  Better
yet, maybe STOCK, SAVE, ELF, corporate personnel, and whoever else
should get together so I only have one PIN for all my activities with
DIGITAL.  Unlike the badge number, which is never VERY private (see 
below) this number would be assigned at orientation, recorded only
corporate personnel files (maybe encrypted, like passwords), and could 
be used for validating any employee confidental information.

Re .-1:  Our cost center distributes to each of us a listing of the 
population of our cost center.  The listing includes name, DTN, and 
badge number.  Many of us post the entire list in our office for 
reference (for the DTN).

This talk of "one-PIN" is ludicrous and goes directly against the "different
password for each system" guidelines in every "Guide to [VAX/VMS or whatever]
System Security" manual I have ever seen.

The day my DCU or Investor Services PINs become part of some corporate data
base which can be inquired from some random MicroVAX on the Easynet is the
day I close my accounts with both of those establishments.

BTW, both your badge number and your Investor Services PINs have appeared on
your last two Statements of Ownership, something I intend to take up with
Corporate Security immediately.  I have just sliced them out of the paper.

/john

    The PINs are on the statements!?  That's ridiculous!  They should
    not even have access to an unencoded PIN!  For that matter the stupid
    PINs should be more the 4 digits anyway!
    
    Burns

        Re: .45
        
        I called Investor Services about a month ago, and during the
        conversation I complained about the presence of the PIN on the
        statement. 
        
        They said it was a feature, that many people found it convenient
        to have the PIN on the statement.  Apparently there were
        complaints so Investor Services added the field to the stock
        statement of ownership. 
        
        BTW, Your badge number and SAVE `security code' have appeared on
        all SAVE statements. 
        
        					B.J.

I've received an answer on the Investor Services PIN issue which basically
says:  If you don't like it, you can disable your use of the system completely.

The following is an edited extract of the message I received from Corporate
Security:

Investor Services assured me time that the decision to place the PIN on
the statement was a well thought out business decision based on the 
known risks and the business needs of that organization.  Among the 
factors which were cited were the following.

1) the statement and any checks from stock sales are sent to 
employee's home

2) the employee can change the PIN or disable the system all together

4) there are various checks and balances already in place within the 
organization which makes fraud difficult

5) the work load cause by employees calling the dept. because of 
forgotten PINs, (as you can imagine its difficult to verify this sort 
of call)

I was assured that to date this practice has proven to be successful 
and has had no problems related to the practice, and the system is 
being carefully monitored.

Regards,

    Is the PIN visible, or potentially visible, through a window in
    the envelope the statement is mailed in?
    
    	- Jerry

re .48
        
>Investor Services assured me time that the decision to place the PIN on
>the statement was a well thought out business decision based on the 
>known risks and the business needs of that organization.  Among the 
>factors which were cited were the following.

        Well thought out business decision. Breaching customer security
        is not a business decision.
        
        
>        1) the statement and any checks from stock sales are sent to 
>	 employee's home

        So, we had mail stolen from out letter box on several occasions,
        we only clicked when we found an envelope in the gutter.
        
>2) the employee can change the PIN or disable the system all together
        
        And how many of them have been advised that this is a problem
        that they should take action to remedy.

>4) there are various checks and balances already in place within the 
>organization which makes fraud difficult

        It should not be difficult, it should be impossible.
        
>5) the work load cause by employees calling the dept. because of 
>forgotten PINs, (as you can imagine its difficult to verify this sort 
>of call)
 
        The banks I deal with, send a card, call you to confirm it's
        receipt and then send the PIN seperately. This is repeated
        in total for either a lost card or PIN no.
        
>I was assured that to date this practice has proven to be successful 
>and has had no problems related to the practice, and the system is 
>being carefully monitored.

	I am sure that most banks that are being ripped off are not
        aware of it, and would not advertise it if they were.
        
        q
        

    It sounds like a "well thought out business decision" that allocated
    little or no benefit to customer account security.  My distrust
    of this system appears to be well-founded.
        John Sauter

    re .51 "well thought out business decision"
    
    Sounds like they decided that the costs of "undoing" any inappropriate
    transactions was less than the people costs of answering the phone
    and (after verification) getting you back on the air with your PIN.
    
    I can see their point, and if indeed they are willing to make good
    problems caused by their lack of security, I can believe it was
    a reasonable decision.  If, on the other hand, they refuse to right
    a wrong done to your account (or if they even drag their feet),
    then they are negligent in their responsibility to safeguard your
    money.
    
    This of course ignores the "costs" to me of inappropriate disclosure
    of account data (say to my wife's divorce lawyer...).  It's hard
    to quantify that exposure.  It would be interesting to see their
    response on that one.
    
    Steveg

Hmmm.  Undoing transactions?  How can they do that?  Would the SEC want to
investigate if I called up and said that that sale I made at 95 was done
fraudulently?  The stock's at 112 now.

/john

    re: undoing transactions
    
    It's common practice in the security industry.  If I call your broker
    and convince him to sell your stock (say by pretending to be you),
    You are not liable for the loss (or gain :-)).  It's part of the
    broker's cost of doing business.  The same problem happens if they
    typo and get somebody else's account instead of yours or they sell
    the wrong stock for you.
    
    Now of course, any reasonable businessman is going to make sure
    that fraud was really involved.  This may be onerous on your part
    to convince him (but hopefully less trouble than suing the broker).
    
    Steveg

        I didn't even realize that my PIN number was on the statement till
        this note pointed it out! Prior to that, I had even left my
        statements lying on my desk, while I was waiting for the right
        time to sell (last year, at 105, not now at 112). 
        
        So what choice do we have? Live with their security comprimise?
        I'd rather not. Disable the PIN number? Then how do we sell stock.
        RCS is gone (and not missed). DECmail isn't timely enough for use
        to sell stock. That only leaves the dialup service. 
        
        So in the tradition of Digital, whose door do I open to complain?
        John, who responded to your letter? I'd gladly write that person
        to add additional voices to your position. 

Another way to sell stock: 

Take possession of your certificates, and sell thru a discount broker.
It can cost $30-$40/transaction, but you get exactly the price you
want. The stock can easily fluctuate 3-4 points during the two day delay
between placing the order and the actual sale, and the actual sale
price is the aggregate for all stock transaction executed by DEC on
that date.  Thus, going thru investor services, the sale price becomes 
problematical.  Depending on how many shares you sell, the commission
(which is deducted from the proceeds before computing the ordinary
income portion of your gain) can be easily made back if you gain just
one or two points over what DEC would have sold the stock for. 

    
    Hypothetical situation:
    
    I'm saving money and holding onto stock so I can put a down-payment
    on a house.  I own 100 shares of DEC stock.  Stock prices currently 
    $112./share.  I hold on to my shares, waiting for value to increase.  
    Somehow, somebody makes a note of my PIN (use your imagination as
    to how someone could see my statement).  When the stock takes a dive, 
    that someone plays a dirty trick on me and calls investor svcs. and
    unloads all my stocks.  If the price dropped from $112. to $100./share,
    I just lost $1200.  I don't realize this has happened until I get a
    mysterious check in the mail reflecting the sale of all my DEC stock...
    
    That's my gripe.  When I got my statement in the mail yesterday,
    I noticed the PIN for the first time, and I, too, was furious.
    
    You can add my name to any "group" protest or petition that may
    circulate.
    
    Donna
    
    

    I got my Stock Plan statement and was horrified when I saw my PIN on
    it.  I changed it immediately when I first got my account last year and
    was waiting to see if the new one was going to be printed on the
    statement. It was. 
    
    The "If you don't like it, don't use it" attitude is not, in my mind,
    proper for such a service organization.  If most people want something,
    unless it's illegal, it's that group's job to do it.  This doesn't
    even take into account the fact that they're breaking the most
    elementary rules of account security.
    
    Again, to whom do we write?
    
    -joe tomkowitz

    re: .57
    
    I think you're missing the point.  No security system is perfect. All
    any security system should be expected to do it lower the exposure
    (finantial, reputation, etc.) to a level that is "acceptable". All
    security decisions are a compromise between the costs of implementing a
    particular scheme (measurable) and the exposure created by not doing so
    (estimated).  As such, every security decision is a business decision
    trying to balance these two sides.
    
    Suppose the example in .57 occured.  Investor services should be held
    liable since they *decided* to put both the badge number and PIN on the
    same piece of paper and send them through the US Mail. They should be
    required to credit the account with 100 shares and the check that was
    issued should be returned/voided. 
    
    If, while this was going on, you decide to sell your 100 shares (which
    you still own even though investor services may not agree) it would get
    a bit sticky (but brokerage houses do it all the time) -- you just have
    to make sure you're not using 20/20 hindsight by telling them, in
    writing, when you wish to sell and not later (no "oh but I would have
    sold 2 weeks ago when it was at 150.").
    
    

        Of course, there are those of us in Digital who would think
        of a stock purchase plan of any sort as a god-send. Or a
        credit-union, or a cafeteria, Or decent levels of in-house
        computing resources, or Xmas turkeys, and so on and so forth...
        
        q
        

    I know few people around who still have not received the Ownership
    Statement, including myself.  When I called them yesterday, their reply
    was it has been just mailed out and I should be getting it "soon".
    
- Vikas 

    OK, anyone know who the main man is??????????
    -glenn

        Investor Services:
		DTN 223-3679
		P.O. Box 490
		Maynard, Massachusetts  01754

.59>        I think you're missing the point.  No security system is perfect. All
.59>    any security system should be expected to do it lower the exposure
.59>    (finantial, reputation, etc.) to a level that is "acceptable"....
    
    I think *you're* missing the point - the existing system is clearly
    *NOT* "acceptable" to those of us who are potentially exposed. Talk of
    how any losses *should* be made good doesn't guarantee that they will
    be, nor does it consider the hassle to which any of us who might be
    victimized will surely be subjected.  I see the problem as being that
    Investor Services has not considered its clients in the design of this
    feature, nor have they listened to feedback voicing the wishes of the
    clients.  Given such insensitivity and lack of responsiveness, why
    should I expect anything but a hassle over restitution of losses? 

>    OK, anyone know who the main man is??????????


The VP is Al Mullin, Vice President of Corporate Relations, his direct 
report, manager of Investor Services is Robert Dill.  Both reside at MSO.

I asked this question of the PIN/Badge being on statement of ownership 
yesterday of Mr. Dill and was told that it is there "because 85% of the people 
forget it".  I used the example of the statement laying around on someone's 
desk making it easy for someone else to sell the stock.  And was told that even 
if this happens, the check or certificate would go to the owners home 
address so there is no problem.  I asked what if it was a *wily criminal* 
that intercepted the mail.  His answer was the stock would not be reimbursed 
but reinstated, as if it was never sold. And that people should not worry.  
He claims that they have *never* had a problem with this.

Angeline

    ahhh, but how does someone recover from an unauthorised sale of
    stock where the proceeds do indeed come to the (now former) owner,
    no interception involved, but that person never actually had any
    intention to sell (because, e.g., the price was rising sharply)
    and the whole thing was carried out as a thoughtless prank by some
    unidentifiable colleague?
    
    					=maggie

Should that happen (gawd forbid ;-)), I suspect that you should call 
investor services and tell them that.  However, I can forsee the problem of 
trying to convince them that you did not authorize the sale.  This could 
open up a whole lot of problems, say right now for example, I sold some 
stock earlier this week at $116 and now it is $135.  I could call them and 
have them reinstate it, only to sell at a higher price.

Didn't ask him that question.  Sorry.

Angeline

    If there is a single word that describes a good security person, it is
    "vigilant".  It's a field in which the careful practitioner is more
    concerned with what MIGHT happen than what HAS happened.
    
    -joe tomkowitz 

I just received some junk mail from WPI, and the mailing label contained
both my badge number AND my cost center number.  That information goes on
no magazine subscriptions, purchases, or anything else.  The only way WPI 
could have gotten that info is if DEC sold them the mailing list.

Now, besides associating my name, address, and badge number (see previous
discussion for what you can do with that info at the DCU, etc), consider
what you could learn about DEC's manpower allocations by seeing how many
people (and their approximate seniority) are in each cc.  You wouldn't
know what each cc DID, but if you knew from other sources that, say,
Sally Brown was working on project foo, and 30 people had the same cc
as Sally Brown...

Totally disgusted.

If DEC is selling employee lists (even without badge and cost center info)
it's time for an employee uprising.

We need data privacy laws in this country, now!

I hope you're planning on following this one up; in fact if I were to
receive one of these mailings it would be time for a Dear Ken letter.

/john

    Lots of people have access to personnel data in one form or another.
    Many cost centers have their own database of employees, with local
    phone numbers and home addresses for emergencies, etc.  It could
    be one person selling the stuff without authorization: in fact,
    I suspect that is what is happening, because (to my knowledge) DEC
    isn't in the business of creating and marketing large databases
    of info.
    
    I don't think there is a policy concerning the creation and maintenance
    of personnel databases--if there is, it isn't very widely published.
    Perhaps it's time for a corporate policy (like the new one concerning
    computer use) that specifies database creation, management, and
    security--and specifically prohibits use of the database for non-DEC
    purposes.

    Are you saying you never took a course through WPI under the auspices
    of Digital and they still have that information?  No tuition
    reimbursement forms, nothing?!? Was the junk mail sent to your home
    or office address?
    
    I'll bet someone's making money on this, but my guess is it's not
    Digital...
    
    *sigh*    
    Marge
    

I have never had anything to do with WPI, other than receiving their
junk mail.  I have received it before, but can't remember if the cc
and badge were on there.  But I only joined my current cc 4 months ago,
and they had it right.

So maybe DEC isn't SELLING the list.  Maybe they are GIVING it to
colleges.  It isn't whether DEC is making money from my name that
has me upset (although I don't like it).

    Now it has been mentioned, I have been getting the WPI stuff at my home
    since I joined DEC four years ago.  I have never taken any courses at
    WPI or even visited it.  The material arrives in mail just before the
    registration time and it has followed me `correctly' even though I have
    changed my residence few times. That means that they have access to the
    most up-to-date listing of the employee data-base.  I distinctly
    remember seeing both my badge number and CC on it, although I will
    verify it tonight. 
    
    - Vikas

Ray Locke, manager of Personnel Data Systems, will be contacting Paul for more
information on tracking down the way this information is getting to WPI.  It
is a clear violation of corporate policy.

My comment to him was that there was a good possibility that someone in the
corporate data center was in need of some attitude readjustment.

/john

    There are occasions when I've received junk mail apparently
    sanctioned by DEC, from Business Week.  "Special offer for
    Digital employees...", I think with DEC data on the mailing
    label.  Perhaps such organizations are now using the list
    data for their own purposes (i.e., renting it out).

There is simply *no* case where Digital is permitted to give your address
information out to feed a mailing list.

The policy on Employee Privacy is very explicit about this.

These "Special offers for Digital Employees" must have used some other
source to figure out who you work for.

/john

    I believe the "special offers for Digital employees" are actually
    mailed out by DEC - at least I've often seen the same forms in a
    pile next to Digital This Week, etc., at the Spit Brook plant.
    
    I wonder if perhaps WPI is doing something similar.  Note that it
    would be really stupid for WPI to go out of their way to include
    the badge number and CC on the labels, where they could easily
    omit them and not have incriminating evidence.
    				Steve

    It is my understanding that the mailings for educational materials
    are sanctioned by DEC and the labels are attached within DEC. All
    engineers receive mailings from schools in their area that have
    an agreement with the DEC employee education folks. WPI, BU and
    some others give courses at DEC sites or otherwise utilize DEC
    resources. Therefore the special arrangement. I hope this is true,
    but I sure would like to know if it isn't.
    
    Bob Mc

Even if DEC attaches the labels, the cc and badge number should not
be there.

    
    As a Specialist in the field, I receive several internal DEC
    publications (Interoffice, Sales Update, Competitive Update, VAXcluster
    Systems Update...). All of these have a label with my badge #, cost
    center, and mail stop/building address (Snail Mail). 
    
    If you received a mailing that had your badge # and cost center on it,
    I'll bet it was a Chershire Type label (the kind that is cut then glued
    on). If the organization that did the mailing received a machine
    readable list, I'm sure they would not go to the trouble of printing
    your badge number on every label. It is a common practice in the
    mailing list business to sell just the labels for one time use. 
    
    I agree, this information should not leave DIGITAL in any form!
    If digital wants to send me an offer of some kind, then set a stack
    of them near a bulletin board, or and through interoffice mail.
    
    						--- Neal           

    A very good friend of mine is the manager of data processing for
    WPI and I asked him a few questions.
    
    The department sending out the mailings is probably the Continuing
    Education department of WPI which sponsors a lot of seminars. This
    department has a 6 digit mailing budget. There are two types of
    mailing labels that can appear on their mailings: those generated
    by WPI, and pre-printed labels purchased by an outside agency (they
    don't give you tapes). It's the WPI computer center policy not to
    print any other information than name and address on the labels
    they generate, so the labels in question must have been bought from
    outside already printed.
    
    My friend is willing to try and find the source of the labels if
    we can describe the mailing that was sent and the date.
    
    (* Ed *)
                                                           

    
    I heard this rumor a couple of years ago:
    
    	Someone inside Digital sold a DTN book to an insurance company.
    	I don't think they were ever caught. But many people had recieved
        phone calls at work from various companies. I know that I got
    	a call from a person claiming to be from Merill Lynch about
        investments. When I asked the person where he got my name and
        phone number, he said it was from the DTN book. He would not
        give me his name and when I was insistent on how he got the
        book (especially when it is stamped Company Confidential), he
        hung up the phone. I also received a call from a company claiming
    	they were surveying computer professionals in the area. Again
    	the person hung up when I was insistent on how they got my name
     	and work phone number.
    
    	I believe that all information gathered from you and some
    information that your employer uses for you (like badge #, job code
    #, etc.) are supposed to be confidential. Employers can only verify
    that you work for them, but are not supposed to disclose any other
    information about you. If a person calls the phone number for DEC
    and asks for the phone number of a person, that's the only way I
    can think of that they can legitimately get your phone number other
    that from yourself.
    
    	Any one have these experiences?
    
    
    		

>    	I believe that all information gathered from you and some
>    information that your employer uses for you (like badge #, job code
>    #, etc.) are supposed to be confidential. Employers can only verify
>    that you work for them, but are not supposed to disclose any other
>    information about you.

This is in fact DEC policy (Employee privacy), but in the U.S., unlike some
other countries, there is no law preventing your employer (or any other
non-government organization who has information on you) from giving it out
to anyone.

/john

    Any large company's phone book is gold to "headhunters," and to
    salesmen of all types as well.  Last year, at another computer company,
    we suffered a plague of calls from investment-firm salesmen (Merrill
    Lynch, Dean Witter, E. F. Hutton, Sears, you name it).  They had
    clearly gotten access to our phone book.
    
    I think the tactic hasn't changed; only, perhaps, who is using it.
    Yesterday the headhunter, today the investment broker, tomorrow
    the used-car salesman?

    However, I see no reason that one can't note the name and organization
    of the caller and at least alert Security you've received such a
    call.  Nonwithstanding that the caller won't tell you where he got
    it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

Re .86:

I've wondered whether having a D.A. threaten to charge them with receiving
stolen goods might loosen some tongues.


I always ask the stockbroker callers if they are using "stolen phone books"
to call me at work.  It generally shakes them up enough to put a halt to
the sales pitch.
				/AHM

    Ask them to hold for a moment and forward them to security.

About two years ago, almost everyone in our CC got a set of mailings
from a Dean Witter broker in Worcester.  Interestingly enough, part of
the pitch was to hook us on DEC options.  I believe the envelopes had
the mailstop correct. 

		Anyone else gotten this?

     I remember being quite amazed once; in an English class we were
    going over reference material, were given a city register (Colo
    Spgs) and told to look ourselves up. The register had my name, 
    address, and place of employment. Everytime I was sent mail asking
    for info to place in this book, I refused. So how did they get it?
    Although I doubt the city "sells" this information, it's available
    to anybody. I can see somebody doing a compilation job with it.
    That doesn't explain mailstops, but it's still annoying to think
    that you're asked for info, refuse to provide it, and they get it
    anyway.
                                                 rick

The information talked about in .90 is available to anybody. It is public
domain information and is compiled by every city and town in the country. I
don't know what you mean when you say "Everytime I was sent mail asking for
info to place in this book, I refused.", unless you mean you don't fill out the
census. It sounds to me like you need to reevaluate your feelings about private
vs. public information. (Certainly, where you work need not be a guarded
secret.) 

		-bill

      RE: .91
    
      Yes, it was census info I didn't give. I see no reason to provide
    this information to the city, where I work is not a gaurded secret,
    but I have to wonder, why bother asking me if they can get it
    elsewhere. Aren't you curious about who releases this info?
      This morning I was called at work by a local broker who knew I
    had previously invested in stock, knew where I worked, and knew
    the work phone #. I am just curious where this info comes from,
    and what else they have. 
                                                               
                                          rick

First of all, the census is not initiated by cities and towns. It is
conducted by the Federal government. The government compiles
this information and feeds it back to municipalities. It is the 
responsibility of the community to actually "collect" the information.
Collection, in most instances, merely means sending out mailings and
collecting the returns. However, there are people who view this 
gathering of information as an invasion of one's privacy. You are
an example:>) The community is supposed to verify that all returns
come back and that all the returns are filled out. If not, they
are obliged to send someone out to get the requested info.

Without getting into societal morality issues, it should be pointed
out that more good comes of this information than bad. Communities
depend heavily on census information in planning for future 
development. Business ventures virtually always examine this data
to determine whether success is attainable. Perhaps the least 
significant point to be made is that it is a Federal offense to
deliberately falsify or withhold census information.

    	-bill

    
    
    re:.70, .90 and others --
    
    if you register to vote, if you have a drivers license, if you have
    a phone, if you recieve mail, you can be bought!!!! The federal
    freedom of information act allows anyone to get any kind of information
    on you at any time. All it takes is either the right price or the
    right questions. 
    
    For example, if some one has moved and you don't know their new
    address all you have to do is go to or send a letter with a one
    dollar bill and the last known address of that person and the  post
    office will give you the new forwarding address if it is on file.
    If you know the new city you can go or write that post office with
    the same results. 
    
    Essentially the federal government says that you no longer have
    any privacy. There are certain areas of contractural agreement like
    your actual bank balance or actual salary that if they are revealed
    could be grounds for invasiton of privacy suits, but, look look
    your life is an open book.
    

re .93

In Massachusetts there is a town census which has nothing to do with the
federal census.

/john

    Detailed Federal Census info that can identify specific individuals
    is not available to ANYONE, even the IRS (who has tried).  The
    Census Bureau provides tapes with summaries of info by area, but
    deletes the sample if it is too small.  I worked with Census data
    for several months.
    
    				Steve

    I was hussled by a Dean Whitter broker I know for a DTN book.
    The answer, of course, was NO !! I told him all such information
    was explicitly confidencial and Digital would sue anyone that used
    a DTN book to solicit Digital employees.
    Have we?
    

    re: .96
    > Detailed Federal Census info that can identify specific individuals
    > is not available to ANYONE, even the IRS (who has tried).  The
    > Census Bureau provides tapes with summaries of info by area, but
    > deletes the sample if it is too small.  I worked with Census data
    > for several months.

    On the other hand, I have seen examples of "clever" people who can
    construct a "query search" of the tape that could by inference get
    you a reasonable conclusion to the information being sought.
    
    

    Re: .98
    
    Yes, I've seen several articles on such things too.  All I can say
    is that the Census Bureau is aware of such things and tries to make
    it very difficult.  In any event, raw data which includes names
    is NEVER released.

    "City Directories" are usually produced locally, often with information
    gathered by people paid to walk around door-to-door asking for
    data.  Voter registration lists are easily obtained, and in some
    states (not all), auto registration and drivers license lists. 
    If you don't talk to one of these people, your neighbors might.

    					Steve

There is at least one way of correlating employees and
employers; it's called the W-2.  I don't know the legal
implications of the W-2, but a copy is sent to the state,
a copy to the federal government, and in some areas, a 
copy to the city and/or county (whoever has the power to
levy income taxes).  Therefore, there DOES exist a database
of your name, social security number, employer, and
even how much money you earned.  One can only hope that
this information is secure.

Bruce

Here's the scoop on the WPI labels, received from Ray Locke:

It is the current practice of the DEC college relations department to
provide selected local colleges with mailing labels for distributing
their literature.  This practice is presently being reviewed by
Personnel.  You will be notified of any changes to practice at the
conclusion of this reveiw.

To reiterate, DEC has been providing mailing labels, the colleges have
not received copies of the employee master file nor have they had
access to it within DEC.

--------------

This doesn't bother me, as long as WPI is prevented from copying the
information on the mailing labels.  Fanatic anti-junk-mail people may
feel more strongly about this.

/john

    Because of the recent discussions around the DCU operating procedures
    I have been asked to quote the following;
     
    " The Digital Credit Union (DCU) is a federal credit union
      and operates according to procedures established by the National
      Credit Union Administration (NCUA), an agency of the Federal
      government.
      
      Any attempt to defraud DCU, of tamper with established procedures,
      is punishable under Federal laws.
      
      Confidentiality of members account information is of primary
      concern at DCU. Recent electronic traffic makes it necessary to
      remind individuals that attempts to break this trust are 
      punishable under Federal statutes."
    
    
    I have also spoken the DCU management and they assure me that their
    operating procedures have been improved. If we as DCU members find
    that their procedures are weak or not effective, we should contact
    DCU Communications Department at DTN 223-6735. If the problems are
    not corrected please notify this office with the appropiate information
    and we will see that the appropiate behaviour modification takes
    place.
    
    

    re: .102--``...tamper with established procedures, is punishable under
    Federal laws.''
    
    Is electing a new person to tbe board of directors considered
    "tampering with established procedures"?  If not, what is considered
    "tampering" with established procedures?
        John Sauter

    There also laws that say people shouldn't steal cars.  These laws
    don't PREVENT anything, but just say that it shouldn't be done and
    describe punishment if you do.  It still makes sense to lock your
    car, etc., just as it makes sense for the DCU to try a little
    prevention.  Problem is that some of us think that the "little"
    being done is much too little.
    
    I will shut up now, because the lack of secure DCU procedures has
    caused me to move all but about $10 out to a real bank, so I have
    little to worry about now.
    
    Sally
    (who started this note in the first place)
    

Since (I think) this is the right place to be discussing external use
of internal employee data, let me share with you all an interesting
telephone call I received today. 

My condo is for sale*, and my ad ran in the Digital This Week
published yesterday.  Today I received a phone call, in my office,
from a realtor from Bob and Lee Mathieu in Westboro, asking me if I
wanted to list my property with them.  Upon asking, she told me she
got my name from DTW.  I then asked her where she got a copy of this
DEC-internal publication, and as you might guess, I didn't get a
straight answer. 

I'm not suggesting there is anything inherently bad about this.  It
just surprised me that she got such quick access to DTW, that she also
had access to a internal-DTN-to-external-exchange listing, and that
she had no shame over calling, or revealing her source. 
Just F.Y.I.	/j 

(*See TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE, note 19.61 for details, a good buy!) 

>I then asked her where she got a copy of this DEC-internal publication

Internal, yes, internal only?  I've never seen anything indicating that it is.

>she also had access to a internal-DTN-to-external-exchange listing

Call 617-897-5111.  Say "I have a DTN number I need to call from outside."

/john

    DTW is placed in most of the DEC lobbies I've been in.  Anyone can
    grab a copy.  It is not a "company confidential" publication.
    
    						Mike

    The new gray picture badges have the number on the back (at least
    in Germany). Putting it in the front was considered a security problem.
    
    Now, I just got a letter from personnel stating that all those who
    have badges wuith the number in the back can get new ones without
    *any* badge number, to fulfil all security demands.
    

    Re .108:
    
    I guess the next two logical steps would be:
    
    1) Badges without pictures,
    
    followed by a phaseover to
    
    2) no badges.  :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    yeah... Just look and you'll see how I look like - what do you need
    the picture for?    :-)
    

    RE: -1
    
    Rumor has it that that is why KO opposed us having our pictures
    on our badges. 
    
    Deb

    re .109
    
    Badges without pictures, eh? That's the only badge I've got. It's
    really annoying to go to a DEC site with my genuine OFFICIAL DEC
    badge, which I've had for over ten years, and be forced to get
    a temporary badge to get in. It even happened at the Mill. Grrr.

        Of course, the best approach would be a data badge. I suggested
        to our facilities people some time before we went to picture
        badges, that we use a keycard scheme. There is a non-magnetic
        plastic card system available that works on imbedded wires
        or some such and has millions of coding combinations. We could
        then have a worldwide identification system. THen someone who
        looks somewhat like you could not cheat their way in with your
        badge, as you would report it's loss and it's electronic signature
        would be listed as bad. This would allow easy access to other
        facilities, and could be taken to the logical end of lab access
        control etc.
        
        q
        

    we use those here (SPO) to control access to the warehouse.
    They break, people lose them, and a blown fuse, faulty reader
    or power failure can lock you out. Do you really want all
    that data on an easily lost piece of plastic ? Do you really
    want your coming and going monitored to this degree ? How
    about threats of reprisal if you don't use the card on the way
    in when accomapnied by another worker ?  Leave these things to
    the Elks :-)/2

    The NCS cards are fine, Mine looks like it has been stepped on by
    an elephant and still works.  Much faster than signing my name...
    
    Anyway if the reader fritzes I just jerk the door real hard and
    it opens...

The NCS card does not store your permissions, just a number.  The
site security computer uses the number to look up what doors you
are allowed to open.  The number is *not* your badge number, although
the computer can make the association.

    Re: .112
    
    > really annoying to go to a DEC site with my genuine OFFICIAL DEC
    > badge, which I've had for over ten years,
    
    Sorry to burst your bubble Paul but you couldn't possibly have a
    "Genuine OFFICIAL DEC badge" unless you've been here for AT LEAST
    20 or so years. Badge style/format changed at least twice before
    you got your "Modern" non-picture badge.   

    BTW, Genuine OFFICIAL DEC badges are approximately 2" square and
    bordered by a dark blue (sort of Indigo) perimeter. Maybe someone
    remembers when they first changed. I suspect that you'd have to
    have a 4-digit number, or less, to have one.

    John_R  :^)

    PS: Unless there's another "Paul Beck" I remember when you were hired
    and I couldn't resist the 'tweak'!

    re .117
    
    I knew that would happen - I'm aware of the earlier styles and admit
    to being a newcomer at only 10.5 years. I wonder if people with the
    20-year-old badges get the same hassles? 
    
    Does KO have a picture badge?

When I co-oped at IBM, my badge had a magnetic strip on it.  You used 
it to get into labs, and to get into the building, both at the front 
entrance, and at several employee entrances.  The system appeared to 
work quite well, and gave you an incentive to have you badge clipped 
on, since you used it several times a day.  (They were somewhat 
stickier about visible badges than I've found it here).

Of course, they could theoretically tabulate, and send to your 
manager, a record of everytime you went in and out of the building.
And eventually could even put the nifty littel card readers on the 
washroom doors :-}

    With all the talk here about picture badges, I thought I'd add a
    cent or two.
    
    I don't think that the picture badges came to pass so much because
    DEC wanted them, but the customers did.
    
    A number of the DoD/Spook-work agencies complained about the level
    of security implied by a non-picture badge. It was my belief that
    DEC went the picture route to make these folks happy.
    
    Jim
    

I think concern about internal security (by external agencies) was 
also a factor.

    .121 is correct - imagine field service personel entering some secure
    research area without a picture badge?  It created a lot of delays
    that nobody wanted.  Plus if Digital ever wanted to have a classified
    project somewhere, we would need that extra security that picture
    badges can supply.
    	
    	rmm
    

    	I believe badge numbers will be the solution to many problems.
    First, however, we must try to keep from being trapped by the
    convertions of the past.  I could give several good successful and
    old examples...but this isnt the forum.  
    
    Keith
    
    

    Re: Picture Badges
    
    No one has REALLY looked at mine since I got it;  I just wave it
    in the general direction of the guard, receptionist, et al from
    a distance of about ten feet and walk right in!  This in a large
    number of facilities both here and abroad (DECPark, Reading, UK
    is the only exception I've found; you need a card reader there even
    if you do get by security).

    Besides secure facilities, (government) there were complaints from
    customers about DEC service folks that would show up and didn't
    have any kind of picture identification. This is standard procedure
    with most utility companies. They have a badge with a picture so
    that the customer can see that they really are who they say they
    are, and not someone who has just stolen a van with a big blue logo,
    an 8600 spares kit, and someone's pictureless badge.

    8')
    
    

Re .112: I thought all DEC plants in the U.S. had converted to 
picture badges. If that is so, your badge is no longer official
and the guards at your site are doing you a favor by letting you
in with it. If you don't want the inconvenience of getting a tem-
porary badge at remote sites, get a picture badge. On the other
hand, if you didn't get a picture badge because you can't bear to
part with your old badge, you will have to live with the inconveni-
ence.

re .126

Spitbrook has not converted, if you work for Bill Heffner.  Although ZK can
issue picture badges to anyone in the facility, they do not require employees
to get picture badges, and they were still fairly recently issuing badges
without pictures to new employees.

/john

    At Spit Brook (ZKO), non-picture badges are still accepted. I think
    that new employees all get the picture badges, but nobody with the
    older style has been asked to "upgrade" (we've been told we can do
    so when we decide we want to). So, thus far it's not a "favor", it's
    policy. Other sites I frequent are about equally split between
    letting me in with my badge and asking me to sign in with a
    temporary badge. 
    
    I'll bite the bullet eventually (I hate picture badges). Do people
    have trouble cutting the new ones to fit a wallet (they're bigger
    than the old). I haven't had the clip on my old one for over nine
    years (which is why I've never lost it).

    Re: .126
    
    As far as I know, ZKO (Spit Brook Road, Nashua NH) is the ONLY
    DEC facility that has not enforced the switch to picture badges.
    The picture badges are available if you want to get one.  I held
    off for a long time, but when I found I couldn't get into other
    facilities, I switched.  I was allowed to keep my old badge.
    (For some reason, they'll let you keep the "plain" blue/white 
    badges, or the older ones, but not the facility-specific badges
    with the drawings on them - I don't quite understand the
    distinction.)
    
    I agree that one big reason is that our customers want us to have
    some uniform badge style with pictures.  The old styles were chaos,
    with dozens of different appearances.  The new badges win no
    art prizes, but they look a lot better than badges I've seen for
    other employers.
    
    True - the badge is not given much more than a cursory glance, but
    the ability is there for tighter security if deemed necessary at
    specific sites.
    
    Yes, I was nostalgic for my old badge, especially as it was becoming
    increasingly rare in a sea of picture and art badges.  But I
    understand why the change was made and made the switch.  It really
    doesn't bother me.
    					Steve

    Wow - 3-way notes collision!
    
    As far as I know, new employees at ZKO MUST get picture badges -
    they don't make the old style anymore.  I admit I'm not 100% certain
    of this.
    					Steve

	Actually, the picture badges were necessitated by our
	aging work force. Paul and I worked together for his
	first five years at DEC. Recently, we encountered one
	another at the Mill. He was able to glance at my picture
	badge, see what I used to look like, and remember my
	name in a flash. I, on the other hand, had no way to
	determine what he used to look like, and have been
	puzzling ever since as to the identity of the familiar
	looking person with the blue badge.

	Hi, Paul.

You can't 'cut' the badges (security feature - if the seal is broken,
the plastic changes color) - However, the size seems the be a
compromise between those who wanted to make it bigger than a wallet,
to encourage public display, and those who wanted to give the employee
the option.  That is, it jjjuusssttt fits  :-} 

    Cardkey badges worked just fine when I worked for a major NY bank.
    Most of the time, the guards just wanted you to wayve a badge-like
    object at them and they'd let you pass.  On the other hand, they'd
    be inclined to shoot someone who tried to get past without a badge.
    
    Badges were required to sign in visitors and cash cheques at the
    employee bank branch.

    Now, what's this got to do with cardkey entrance - it allowed you
    free use of the man-traps into the computer center.  That way, you
    didn't have to hike several floors to get signed in and hike several
    more to get to the floor where your computers were.
    
    The major disadvantage is that they'd repeatedly crack or split.
    For a while we all used Duco cement, but that eventually made the
    cards all gooey (didn't affect the magnetic plate) and finally decided
    on the use of 4 inch wide scotch tape as binding.  (Say, Tom Blinn,
    remember the gooey cards?)
    
    BobW
    

re: .126


I do believe that ZSO, does not require picture badges.  So there are 2, 
count 'em, 2 facilites that do not make you smile to enter the door!

Angeline

    re: .128 and .132
    
    They trim fine to fit in a wallet.
    
    No, they don't change color (or beep or anything) when you trim
    them.
    
    If it weren't in my wallet, then I spend half each day trying to
    remember where it was.
    
    /s/ Jim WIlliams

re: .136, .136

The previous two notes are big neon signs that say, "over here, over here".

They also suggest two node names and two user names of interest.

DEC has a _lot_ to learn about security, and employees even more.

- greg

    All this talk about picture badges = improved security reminds me
    of a good prank a co-worker did when I worked in LJ. On the day
    we had our picture badges made, the lady chief of security used
    herself to help adjust the camera. The co-worker grabbed a bunch
    of her pictures from the trash. When _HIS_ badge de-laminated, as
    these badges easily do, he stuck her picture in on top of his. He
    had no difficulty entering any Digital facility for months on end.
    He finally gave up - realizing no one ever really looked - and 
    removed her picture from his badge ...
    
    

re: .139

>    ......................, he stuck her picture in on top of his. He
>    had no difficulty entering any Digital facility for months on end.
>    He finally gave up - realizing no one ever really looked - and 

I'm told this trick was worked (at a classified NASA  site)  with  a badge
that  had  Nikita  Sergeyevich  Khrushchev's picture, pasted on top of the
rightful owner's;  same results as in .139. 

(P.S.  Mr.  K ran the USSR 1956-1964, in case some readers are too young to
remember.)

        Re: .139, .140
        
        I heard another story about picture badges, this one from
        Bell Laboratories.  One employee taped a picture of a monkey
        on top of his badge and, as usual, never had a problem.
        
        Then a fellow employee talked with a security guard to arrange a
        prank.  The guard asked the guy with monkey badge to show his
        badge, took the badge, examined it and the person, and then
        said `O.K.' and handed the badge back.
        
        					B.J.

        Re: .139, .140, .141
        
>        Then a fellow employee talked with a security guard to arrange a
>        prank.  The guard asked the guy with monkey badge to show his
>        badge, took the badge, examined it and the person, and then
>        said `O.K.' and handed the badge back.
        
Chuckle, that's a good one.  Being serious for a moment, security
can be effective even under these circumstances; there are many
'reverse' anecdotes -- TV security cameras in stores that are just
an empty box and a battery powered red light can significantly
reduce theft.  Like "beware dog" and "this car protected by ..."
stickers that have no backing.

It's not really germane, but I'm reminded of the oft told story
(by first hand witnesses) of the employee that needed to get an
RP06 pack out of the building without a pass.  The guard refused;
the employee held up the pack so you could see between the platters
horizontally and said, "but, see, it's empty".  He was passed.

- greg

    Re "strange pictures on badges":
    
    During World War II, an OSS agent decided to see whether he could
    infiltrate a plant with security badges with a strange photo on
    it.  He was successful, despite the fact that the picture on his
    badge was that of Adolph Hitler.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

  Gee, I'm starting to think that this is one of those "urban legends."
  When I was stationed at Ft. Meade and working at NSA, everyone had
  metal badges that had to be worn around the neck at all times.  There
  were Marine guards stationed at the entrance and every 100 feet or so
  in the hallways.  When you passed a Marine, you were supposed to hold
  your badge near your face so that the guard could check your picture
  against your face.

  The local legend was that there had been an Army spec4 who taped a
  photo of a chimp on his badge.  The legend went this way:  the guy 
  allegedly got away for it for three weeks but when a Marine finally
  noticed, they made the guy's life miserable for the remainder of the 
  time he kept his clearance -- which wasn't long.

  JP

    
    I, for one,  have never had an overwhelming desire to try to publicly
    humiliate a trained killer who is holding an automatic weapon.
    
    However,  to the great badge debate,  I would like to add my own
    experience:
    
    A couple of years ago,  while working in NRO, I had to go between
    NRO4 and NRO5 at least twice daily.  The back door of NRO5 had a
    little place to show your badge to a TV camera mounted overhead,
    inside the door.  You were supposed to press the button to beep
    the security person,  who was supposed to look at his/her TV monitor
    to see your badge, then buzz the door open.   But I, being the dope
    that I sometimes am, often forgot my badge.  I'd speak through the
    intercom, arguing that I had merely forgotten my badge, and surely
    they must recognize me by now (which they did),  but still they
    wouldn't buzz me in.  Finally, one day I arrived at the door with
    no badge, and rain pouring down outside.  NO way was I going to
    walk all the way back just to get my badge!  So I pushed the button
    and held my driver's license up to the window.  The door buzzed
    and in I went!  I got such a kick out of this, that I decided to
    experiment:  credit cards, folded pieces of paper, and even dollar
    bills all worked!  Eventually,  I just held my hand up in the air,
    and sure enough, they buzzed me in again! 
    
    So...  the chimp face was bad enough,  but these people were letting
    me in for just waving air at them.
    
    -monty-

    Gee, these folks are getting touchy!
    
    In my reply .136, I alluded to a then-penultimate reply which referred
    to a specific site known for its "security".  Is the fact that
    aforementioned facility has its own rules some top secret?
    
    Or was it my mention of the words that send shudders into DECsouls,
    
    Charlie Matco  ?
    
    Suddenly mention of Mr. Shannon's alias causes goose bumps?

    Re .146:
    
>    Charlie Matco  ?
>    
>    Suddenly mention of Mr. Shannon's alias causes goose bumps?
 
    Mr. Shannon might be answeering phone calls as "Charlie Matco,"
    but there was a "Charlie Matco" before Mr. Shannon joined _Digital
    Review_.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.