Conference 7.286::digital

    Try buying a Digital fromwe either 
    PCs Compleat or Compusa, they give Digital Employee discounts.
    

$ VTX EPP...

 Desktop
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Employee Purchase ...    
 The New EPP                                     
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 ANNOUNCING.....DIGITAL'S NEW EMPLOYEE PURCHASE PROGRAM!!!!!!
 
 CALL 1-800-EPP-1237 (1-800-377-1237) beginning Wednesday, 
 June 21st!!
 
 Effective Monday, June 19, 1995 the PC systems and PC related
 peripherals and options piece of the Employee Purchase Program 
 will be managed by PCs COMPLEAT and COMPUSA. This unique 
 selling partnership is an integral part of Digital Equipment 
 Corporation's strategy to transition it's direct-response sales 
 operations to reselling partners in order to better serve the 
 growing needs of all it's customers, as well as offering you 
 the opportunity to purchase Digital's retail PC line at an 
 Employee discount. 
 
 As valued customers of Digital Equipment Corporation, you will 
 continue to receive all the benefits of purchasing Digital 
 products, such as it's unsurpassed manufacturing quality and 
 the Digital product warranty. In addition, you will also 
 receive the following benefits:
 
 FROM COMPUSA:
 
 * Opportunity to see and purchase Digital's retail PC line as 
   well as hundreds of other products from any COMPUSA store or 
   COMPUSA Direct and receive substantial savings as a Digital
   Employee!
 
   (Call 1-800-COMPUSA, pick option #2 and be connected directly 
   to the closest COMPUSA store to ask for more details or press 1 
   to order over the phone from COMPUSA Direct).
 
 
 FROM PC COMPLEAT:
 
 * You will continue to receive the same EPP savings you do 
   today on all of Digital's commercial line of PC's and 
   Digital's PC peripherals and options!
 
 * You can NOW purchase and save on Digital's retail 
   line of PC systems!
 
 * You can NOW save on hundreds of other third party PC 
   software and hardware products!
 
 * You will NOW receive all the features of Digital's 3 year 
   limited warranty on all Digital PC systems (Year 1 On-Site;
   Years 2 & 3 Return-to-Digital....this applies to DESKTOP and
   DESKSIDE PC systems)!

 * You will NOW receive FREE hardware configuration!
 
 * You will NOW receive FREE software installation!
 
 * You will NOW receive Lifetime toll-free technical support!
 
 * You can NOW pick from different freight/shipment options
   and save!
 
 * You will NOW receive a 30 day money back guarantee!
 
 * This is NOW an America's EPP program! (For Employees
   outside the continental U.S., you may contact PCs Compleat 
   by calling 508-460-8894)
 
 * PCs Compleat Sales lines are staffed M-F, 24 hours a day 
   and on weekends 8am-8pm ET.
 
 * And much more, CALL 1-800-EPP-1237, pick option #1 for
   all the details!!!!
 
 
 The NEW EPP...CALL 1-800-EPP-1237 BEGINNING Wednesday, June 21, 
 1995!!!
 
 
 COMPUSA is one of the nations largest chains of computer 
 superstores.
 
 PC COMPLEAT, headquartered in Marlboro, MA. is one of the leading 
 PC mail order companies/resellers in the US.
 
 NOTE: Terms and conditions of sale are governed by that of 
 the reseller purchased from.
















                       FOR DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY

    
    I think node ANNECY:: (from which the basenoter posted) is in France.
    
    Grainne Ni Choiligh (in CompUSA-less Ireland.)
    

    I shopped all the markets, and to date I could not beat the Digital PC
    prices.  In the process of over evaluating the options from all
    resellers and direct phone sales, the model I was looking at, Starion
    930, got cancelled and they introduced the 931, basically the same with
    a larger hard drive.  Bottom line is NO ONE could beat the price, by
    several hundred dollars $$$$, so I went with the Digital System.
    
    BTW I stopped at Lechmeres this weekend to run one and they had a nice
    display set up with 3 systems, only problem was that none of them
    operated, but of the 30 or 40 systems on display I could only get 1
    Packard Bell and 1 Compac to run,  the shoppers messed up all the other
    display units.  This didn't seem to bother the slaes force, they said if
    they get a chance they would set up the hot selling ones later..
    
    
    Buy A DEC (opps Digital)
    Les

    For those of us in the Shrewsbury, Massachusetts area, the PC group
    is having a big sale starting, I think, next week and continuing for
    probably a couple of months. This sale is open to the public, not just
    DEC employees. As an example of what you can get: a 486/33Mhz, 4MEG,
    270MB hard drive, and 14" monitor for $599. Brand new, full warranty
    (five year warranty for DEC employees!).
    Mark Rohan, in the MKO office, has more information.
    
    							Thom...

    I too bought my new pc from Digital (second in 3 years).  I purchased
    the Starion 940.  Shopped around and found that with our employee
    discount through PC Compleat, I got the best deal.
    
    Great machine!!!

    re .5 
    
    Where is this sale and when?
    
    ed

    
    	Down here in South Florida, the ad wars have started. H-P in Sunday
    paper was $1,899 without monitor. Starion was $2,049 with a 15".
    Everything else was the same. And these two had the best pricing of all
    the 75/90 Mhz Pentiums.
    
    	Also the Starion just flat-out *looked* better....
    
    
    			the Greyhawk

    I bought a digital Multimedia 5100 this summer (a Venturis LP 5100
    with a Sound card etc.) here in Switzerland from Migros (the largest 
    supermaket chain here) and although I had to upgrade the BIOS already 
    and change some jumpers to run Windows95, it's running now fine and 
    I get all support I ever need through EASYnet, Notes, local PC Support,
    etc. 
    
    I don't know if I would want to dial into Compaq's bulletin board or
    call the guy that sold me that thing to get the latest drivers, infos
    & support ...
    
    If that PC ever breaks down I can bring it to the people at the second
    floor where I work and they take care of it.
    
    This is worth a few francs that this PC cost more (if at all) for me. 
    
    Regards, 
    
    Arnold Sutter, Digital UNIX Support @RLE, Zurich, Switzerland. 

    Re: .9
    
    Well, maybe not.  I have a problem with my home pc at the moment.
    Dec support for this system used to work very well (last year).
    
    Although the system is a year and a half old, I purchased an extended
    support option for onsite fast (either 24 or 48 hr response, I forget
    which) response for the second and third years.
    
    With the current situation, I gave up after 15-20 minutes on
    hold on the pc hardware support line on my first call.  Later I
    actually got through to someone who said hardware support would call
    me back today between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. this morning, which they didn't.
    
    At least when Microsoft puts you on Eternal Hold, they periodically
    tell you how many people are in the queue in front of you, and what the
    longest wait time has been so far, so you know whether to hang in there
    or forget it.
    
    Also, I wonder if the people programming the voice system realize
    that it is not a good idea to include the standard "Your call
    is very important to us" when they have you on Eternal Hold.
    
    Grumble.                  
    

And just for another data point, what .10 experienced is not what I experienced.

My CDROM on my Starion 400 bit the dust; called the 800 number; got through
pretty quick, explained prob; they said "Doesn't sound like something we can
help you with over the phone, we'll log a call for service."  The service person
called me back within a few hours; got the details, said it would be 2 days to
get a new CDROM, is ok?  Fine by me.  Two days later person called, said "I have
it; how about this afternoon at 1PM?"  They showed up *PROMPTLY* at 1PM, and
replaced the CDROM.  I'm happy.  Other than the problem with the CD, it's been a
very reliable machine.

--Scott

    re: 5
    Will this be advertised or will we have to contact Mark if we want one
    of these systems?
    
    adTHANKSvance,
    
    Kenley
    

The Starion line is not sold in Europe. 

Dave.

    Well folks,you have answered my worst fears.The only European response
    was from a Swiss colleague who hopes to rely on notes etc to get
    support-just as well.However,there is NO 5 year guarantee in Europe for
    Dec employess,the products are in general more expensive than
    competition and there is no employee purchase plan with discounts.As for
    selling off 486 machines-better than the 386 stuff we were offered last
    year but so far there are,again,no offers in Europe.
    
    I find this odd to say the least-is there an official explanation or
    policy or reason or should we just go ahead and buy Compaq?or HP?

>>                    <<< Note 4271.14 by ANNECY::HOTCHKISS >>>
>>                              -< not in Europe.. >-

I would guess the U.S. offer only is probably just because that's
where the machines are physically located.  It would probably cost to
much to ship the machines to Europe.  Why bother anyways if there's
enough market in the U.S. to get rid of the old stuff?

Garry

re: Note 4271.5 by MKOTS3::LANGLOIS, "For those of us in the
Shrewsbury, Massachusetts area, the PC group is having a big sale
starting, I think, next week ..."

When and where is this?!

Pete

    RE: .7, .12, .17
    
    The PC sale will start on Friday, November 24th. It will be held at
    
    Belmont Center
    276 Boston Turnpike (which is Route 9)
    Westboro, Massachusetts
    
    (I assume it's a building DEC is short-term leasing; the building is
     next to BJ's Wholesale Club).
    
    There will be Celebris and Venturis PC's available in various
    configurations with various processor speeds. Approximately 500 PC's 
    total are available. The sale goes on as long, I guess, as there are PC's 
    left.
    There are also multimedia kits (quad speed CD drives w/sound cards,
    etc.), hard drives, 14.4 modems, and, I think, some SIMM sticks.
    Information is supposed to be forthcoming today from Reader's Choice.
    
    						Thom...

    Re: .10
    
    The cavalry arrived to fix my Dec pc.  So, the super response of a
    year ago has degraded, but not so much.
      

I saw Venturis PCs at Building #19 (sells salvage and overstock items) in
Nashua the other week.  (Don't bother looking for them now - they're gone.)

US employees don't get a 5-year guarantee.  The standard guarantee is
three years.  For a while, employees got only one year even when the standard
was three.

Digital does not offer "retail" type PCs in Europe.  If that's what you want,
then you'll have to buy non-Digital.   You can buy a Venturis or Celebris GL
(the latter is a REAL nice system) if you can spend a bit more money.

					Steve

>         <<< HUMANE::DISK$CONFERENCES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
>                        -< The Digital way of working >-
>================================================================================
>Note 4271.20                  Compaq for Christmas?                     20 of 20
>QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent"      12 lines  14-NOV-1995 10:38
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>US employees don't get a 5-year guarantee.  The standard guarantee is
>three years.  For a while, employees got only one year even when the standard
>was three.
    
    I'm being told by the folks putting on this sale (MCS Services) that 
    DEC employees will get a 5 year warranty on any PC bought at the sale.
    Non-employees get the 3 year. 
    
    						Thom...

    Re: .14: 
    
    I did buy my PC from the Migros outlet (did not say that I were a 
    Digital employee since they would not care, but they had a 10%
    discount on everything that day). 
    
    I get 3 years warranty, first year onsite. 
    
    I admit that I don't rely on that machine and that I have close 
    ties into Service here (I work for MCS Service here in Zurich)
    so this may help ...
    
    Usually we at Digital Switzerland get a christmas offer (some 
    fairly recent DECpc for a resonable price) but I decided not 
    to wait for it since they tend to have long delivery time.
    At that shop I told them that I need it within two weeks otherwise
    they could forget it; sure enough they called me after a week and
    I could pick it up. Two weeks is ok (they sold a lot of PCs that day
    because of the 10% discount); friends of mine buying one 
    at a Christmas offer waited two months ... 
    
    FWIW
    
    Arnold

    Re. 20 -- "Digital doesn't offer U.S. retail-type PCs in Europe.."
    
    Shouldn't we START??

    We can barely support the US market...
    
    I have no idea why we don't sell in Europe.  Ask our new VP of consumer
    PCs, whatever his name is.
    
    				Steve

      Apparently one major reason for not selling Starion's in Europe is
    that they have built-in modems. The cost and complexity of qualifying
    the modems with all the different telecomms authorities put them off.
    
    Ken

    re: .25 (built in modems)
    
    I vaguely recall seeing an excuse something like this, but I hope
    it wasn't the sole factor for the decision.  If it really is *that* 
    big of a problem, why not simply offer a Starion package with a 
    soundcard that doesn't include a modem?  
    
    Jim

    Other companies seem to have no problems offering machines including
    modems in Europe. The whole certification process is easier now than it
    used to be, and at least in theory, you need approval in only one EU
    country to be able to sell in all of them (which covers most of
    Europe nowadays).

    From:  Components & Peripherals Customer Hotline: 1-800-777-4343
    
          
                       ATTENTION ALL EMPLOYEES!
          
          
                   ANNOUNCING SPECIAL HOLIDAY PRICES 
          
                                 ON
          
          DIGITAL'S FULL VIDEO INTERACTIVE MPEG PLAYBACK SYSTEM
          
          
          
          Do you need a unique holiday gift idea for the PC user in your 
          life?  Or better yet, a reward for yourself?  This Full 
          Motion, Full Screen Video product could be exactly what you 
          are looking for. 
          
          FullVideo is the premier, low cost, PC-compatible MPEG-1 
          playback system that allows one to see TV-like video and hear 
          16 bit stereo sound from a standard CD ROM.  Put FullVideo 
          into your PC and enjoy games, educational titles, training 
          applications, movies, music videos, and business presentation 
          software.  You will get a heightened sense of realism never 
          before experienced on a computer screen.  MPEG is the superior 
          technology with the highest possible resolution and full 
          screen viewing. 
          
          AND DON'T FORGET GREAT AUDIO!
          
          FullVideo is also a professional quality 16 bit sound card, 
          delivering CD quality digital stereo sound for the most 
          discriminating ears.  Through MPEG, fully orchestrated sound 
          tracks run simultaneously with full motion video images for 
          the ultimate multimedia experience.  FullVideo is compatible 
          with all your existing DOS games - so all your current games 
          and presentation software will still run. 
          
          
          ORDER TODAY WHILE SUPPLIES LAST!
            
          For the complete FullVideo kit including controller, dual 
          speed CD ROM, 2 speakers, 16-bit sound card, and free titles, 
          please order part number
          
             RT-VMPEG-AD  for the special employee price of $279.99 !!
          
          
          For PCs that are already equipped with a sound card and double 
          speed CD ROM all you need to get full screen, full motion TV 
          quality and CD stereo sound is the FullVideo Elite board.  You 
          simply connect it to your sound card with the provided cable.  
          The FullVideo Elite package includes free titles to get you 
          going right out of the box!  Please order part number
          
          
             RT-VMPEG-AC  for the special employee price of $199.99 !!
          
          
          To place an order, please call PC Compleat at 1-800-DIGITAL 
          and press 2.
          
          
          For additional information, please call the Components & 
          Peripherals Hotline at 1-800-777-4343.
          
          
          Hurry! Offer expires December 25, 1995 or while supplies last! 
          
    

    >      For additional information, please call the Components & 
    >      Peripherals Hotline at 1-800-777-4343.
    
    Please do not call this number -- we do NOT have additional
    information.  You know, just *ONCE* I wish they'd send us 
    the background information before they blast our phone number
    to the entire free world.

    .29 - 
    
    I would suggest that you contact the sender(s) of the original message
    regarding the "additional information" statement.
    
    I received the original memo from: C&P Employee Communications        
    			     	       COMPONENTS@A1@SALES@AKO                        
    			      	       Components and Peripherals BU
    
    It seems to me that "us" is part of "they". ;-).
    If that is true, might you offer any suggestion on where one should call 
    for the "additional information"?
    
    
    

    My mistake - just noticed your suggestion to contact PC Compleat!
    Apology extended - 
    
    
    

    >I received the original memo from: C&P Employee Communications        
    >			     	       COMPONENTS@A1@SALES@AKO 
    >    			       Components and Peripherals BU
    >
    >It seems to me that "us" is part of "they". ;-).
    
    	"They" are located in Marlboro -- the rest of "us" are
    	located in Merrimack -- they're at least sixty miles
    	away in distance, further away in other areas.

    Has anyone received more detailed information on the sale next week in
    Westboro? I haven't received anything from Reader's Choice and of
    course I'll be out next week so I was hoping to get more details this
    week. And yes, I sent mail to Mark Rohan but have not heard back.
    
    Thanks.

    So,the collected thoughts of us Deccies is that to get a 'cheap' PC
    you need to move to the US or import one with no
    warranty.Alternatively,you could go and work at another European
    company where they DO encourage you to use the product.Could it be that
    the Digital user audience would howl too much or is the administration
    involved too much work and cost?COULD it be that the PCBU hasn't
    thought about Digital employees using their product or could it be that
    they reckon that if the the take-up is similar to the external market
    take-up,then they will only sell 3 anyway ;-?
    Still,Christmas is only a few weeks away and Compaq is now about to be
    3500$ richer.
    Pity but true

    It doesn't make sense why our PC's are not offered more competively to
    employees in Europe.
    
    Being outside the US shouldn't matter - they're also built in Scotland.
                                                    
    C

    Reading in this notesfile, you might think that this Westboro sale is
    the mother of all DEC sales.  However, I have a copy of the mail that
    was distributed by Mark Rohan and that's not the impression I got at
    all.  First of all, the sale is to promote the move of the Shrewsbury
    SERVICenter.  I didn't get the impression from the mail that this was
    an "employee" sale to which the public was invited.  I got the
    impression that this was a "customer" sale to which employees were
    invited.  There is nothing in the mail to suggest that employees get
    any more of a "deal" than anyone walking in off the street.
    
    >>As part of the GRAND OPENING activities to attract new customers, the 
    >>SERVICenter will be offering many specials. 
    
    The systems that will be sold are categorized as "Class B" PC's.  I
    don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound like "Class AAA...
    Hey baby, these are the latest and greatest PC's we got!".  Not to
    mention that none of the PC's listed in the mail notice are listed in
    the latest PC Compleat catalog.  But I suppose a "deal" is in the eye
    of the beholder.
    
    >>Included will be Class B PC's, Windows 95 upgrades, hard disk upgrades,
    >>memory upgrades, laptops and other selected items.
    

    re: -1
    Class "B" refers to the FCC specification for EMI.  I believe that
    class B means that the PC is certified for business use, and class B is
    certified for home use.
    
    What does it mean?
    
    If your neighbor can prove that your class B PC is distorting he
    reception of Midnight Blue, or Mork & Mindy reruns, the FCC can take
    your first child, send Janet Reno and the ATF after you, etc. etc.
    
    gc 

    sirry,
    
    Class A is certified for home use.
    
    gc

    Boy, that weekend was worse than I thought.
    
    gc

    I'm 99% sure that the classification is: Class B is okay for home
    (residential) use; Class A is not (i.e. Class A devices haven't been
    shown to have a sufficiently low EM radiation level to allow them to
    be used in a residential setting).

In this case, "Class B" is not the FCC emissions class - as explained in the
memo, it means cheap configurations that aren't normally offered, intended
for large corporate buys where they want the lowest possible price.

				Steve

    The Shrewsbury service group has held several of these sales in past
    years- once called a TENT SALE.  They basically drag in a lot of
    returned/refurb stuff and sell it off. 
    

                                        Date:     17-Nov-1995 04:43pm EST
                                        From:     Site Services
                                                  SITE@A1@SALES@AKO
                                        Dept:      
                                        Tel No:    

TO: See Below

Subject: SERVICENTER PC SALE                                         

From  MARK ROHAN, 508-870-1971

	The Digital Shrewsbury SERVICenter will be moving to a new location on 
	Route 9 in Westboro.  This new location will be much more accessible and         
	convenient for you and other Digital employees.  This SERVICenter will 
	be offering a complete menu of multivendor PC services and upgrades to 
	Digital employees, retail consumers, Small Office/Home Office customers, 
	and all other PC users.

	As part of the GRAND OPENING activities to attract new customers, the 
	SERVICenter will be offering many specials.  Included will be Class B 
        PC's, Windows 95 upgrades, hard disk upgrades, memory upgrades, laptops 
 	and other selected items.
 
	The GRAND OPENING SALE STARTS FRIDAY NOVEMBER 24TH and will continue 
	until DECEMBER 26TH. 

	Please pass the word to family and friends and be sure to stop by.


	New Location:

	PC SERVICenter Plus  (formerly Standard Electric)
	BELMONT CENTER
	276 BOSTON TURNPIKE
	ROUTE 9 EAST
	WESTBORO, MA.  01581

	Tel: 508-870-1871
	

	Store Hours
	Monday-Wednesday:  8:00am  to  6:00pm
	Thursdays:         8:00am  to  9:00pm
        Fridays:           8:00am  to  7:00pm
	Saturdays:         8:00am  to  6:00pm  
	Sundays:          12:00pm  to  5:00pm

	November 24th store hours: 8:00am to 9:00PM 

If you have any questions please call Mark Rohan or Don Rodenhiser 
@ 508-870-1971.



GRAND OPENING SPECIALS

Grand Opening specials for all Customers:

* Windows 95 Jump Start PC Assessment: $9.95

* Windows 95 Upgrade: $89.95  Installation: $25

* Multimedia Kit Upgrade:  $ 252.00  (INCLUDES INSTALLATION)

      Includes:   2 X (DUAL SPEED) IDE CD ROM DRIVE, 16 BIT SOUND CARD, SPEAKERS
		  HEADPHONES, MICROPHONE, 12 TOP QUALITY MULTIMEDIA SOFTWARE 
		  TITLES; (GROILER MULTIMEDIA ENCYCLOPEDIA(tm), ALDUS 	            
		  PHOTOSTYLER(tm), CREATIVE WAVESTUDIO (tm) etc.,)

* Multimedia Kit Upgrade:  $ 299.00  (INCLUDES INSTALLATION)

      Includes:   4X (quad speed) IDE CD ROM DRIVE, 16 BIT SOUND CARD, SPEAKERS
		  HEADPHONES, MICROPHONE, 12 TOP QUALITY MULTIMEDIA SOFTWARE 
		  TITLES; (GROILER MULTIMEDIA ENCYCLOPEDIA(tm), ALDUS 	            
		  PHOTOSTYLER(tm), CREATIVE WAVESTUDIO (tm) etc.,)

* Hard Disk Upgrade (desktops only): (INCLUDES INSTALLATION)

       540MB     $ 180.00		  
       850MB       250.00
       1.2GB       325.00 

* Memory Upgrade (desktops only):    (INCLUDES INSTALLATION)

	4MB      $ 165.00
	8MB        300.00

* Modem Upgrade (desktops only): (INCLUDES INSTALLATION)

	14.4 data/FAX  $69.00

* Class B products from the PCBU (customer/distributor returns & excess)

  MODEL    MODEL #   STYLE  CPU    MHz  MEMORY  DRIVE    SALE PRICE
					
  Celebris 821AA-WC   SL    486    66    8MB    540MB    1,149
  Celebris 821AA-03   SL    486    66    8MB    270MB    1,319  *MULTIMEDIA
  Celebris 822AA-WB   SL    486   100    8MB    270MB    1,179
  Celebris 830AA-WC   SL    PEN    60    8MB    540MB    1,299  
  Celebris 830AA-03   SL    PEN    60    8MB    270MB    1,559  *MULTIMEDIA
  Celebris 832AA-WB   FP    PEN    90    8MB    270MB    1,369  


  THESE MODELS INCLUDE : 15" COLOR MONITOR, MS-DOS & WINDOWS FOR WORKGROUPS 3.11
                         GRAPHICS ACCELERATOR, 3.5" FLOPPY, 101 KEYBOARD,
	  	         2-BUTTON MOUSE, 3 YEAR RETURN TO FACTORY WARRANTY
 

  MODEL          MODEL #   STYLE  CPU   MHz   MEMORY  DRIVE   SALE PRICE

  Venturis 851AA-WB   SL    486   33sx   4MB    270MB     599
  Venturis 852AA-WC   SL    486   50s2   8MB    540MB     849
  Venturis 854AA-WB   SL    486   66     4MB    270MB     759
  Venturis 856AA-WB   SL    PEN   60     4MB    270MB   1,059
  Venturis 862AA-WB   FP    486   66     4MB    270MB     839
  Venturis 862AA-03   FP    486   66     4MB    270MB   1,112  *MULTIMEDIA

  THESE MODELS INCLUDE:  14" COLOR MONITOR, MS-DOS & WORKGROUPS FOR WINDOWS 3.11
	                 GRAPHICS ACCELERATOR, 3.5" FLOPPY DRIVE, 101 KEYBOARD,
		         2-BUTTON MOUSE, 3 YEAR RETURN TO SERVICenter WARRANTY

  FP  =  FULL PROFILE BOX      SL  =  SLIMLINE BOX      PEN  =  PENTIUM

  * MULTIMEDIA   THESE PCS INCLUDE A DUAL SPEED CD ROM, SOUND CARD, SPEAKERS 

        DIGITAL EMPLOYEES RECEIVE 5 YEAR CARRY-IN SERVICENTER WARRANTY
 
	**********************************************************************
  	                A WORD ABOUT THESE PCs:	

	QUANTITIES ARE LIMITED  FIRST COME FIRST SERVE.

	These are basic PCs with minimum memory (4MB to 8MB) and disk                        
	(270MB to 540MB) but upgrades are available including Multimedia

	These PCs are classified as Category B products and are not offered
	through our channel partners including retailers.  

	These PCs are intended for sale to general consumers, small offices, 
	and home offices.  These are not for re-sale to brokers and large 
	businesses.

	The prices are very reasonable and fit a family's budget

	The 3 year warranty is a key benefit, especially if your sending a
	child off to college, your investment is protected for three years.
	*********************************************************************


Grand Opening special for Digital Employees only:

	NOTEBOOK PERSONAL COMPUTER FOR $399

	-Digital 320p Notebook Computers previously used by 
	     Digital Sales - all units have been tested and 
	     reformatted
	-i386sx/20
	-80MB hard disk
	-8MB RAM memory
	-Internal FAX/modem
	-Monochrome VGA monitor
	-Battery charger/power pack
	-DOS & Windows
	-Special employee price: $399

	-Limited quantities



                                       DIGITAL EMPLOYEE
                            SERVICENTRE PLUS CUSTOMER RESERVE FORM



DATE___________

CUSTOMER:______________________              SHIP TO:_______________________
                                                               
ADDRESS: ______________________                      _______________________   
                         
STATE:   ______________________                      _______________________

PHONE:   ______________________                    



QTY      DESCRIPTION        PART#                                   QUOTED
                                                                    PRICE

_____    PC                 _____________________                 ___________

_____    MULTIMEDIA         _____________________                 ___________

_____    DISK               _____________________                 ___________

_____    MEMORY             _____________________                 ___________

_____    OTHER              _____________________                 ___________

SUBTOTAL                                                      $   ___________

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       PLEASE RETURN FORM TO KATHY ABEL FAX# 603-884-1036 OR MKOTS3::ABEL



 Distribution:
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 message, please contact the author.
    

    Like the base noter, I have been looking for a PC and have concluded
    that I won't be purchasing a Digital PC either.  PC Compleat does provide
    some rather nifty price savings on the preconfigured Digital PC's they
    sell as compared to Computer City, Circuit City, etc.  However, if you
    look under the hood (sort of speak) and compare part for part what
    other computer vendors offer on their systems, you soon discover that
    the cost savings just aren't there.  If you equalize the video
    accelerator, sound card, modem, and monitors; the discounted price
    either equals or exceeds the retail price of other vendors.  BUT, PC
    Compleat will not custom build you a system.
    
    It's interesting that the VTX EPP (Employee Purchase Program)
    description is a bit more extensive than what I've been told by the
    associated companies that are suppose to provide us discounts.  Namely
    COMPUSA and PC Compleat.
    
    
    What VTX EPP says:
    ------------------
    FROM COMPUSA: 
     * Opportunity to see and purchase Digital's retail PC line as 
       well as hundreds of other products from any COMPUSA store or 
       COMPUSA Direct and receive substantial savings as a Digital
       Employee!
    
    Experience says:
    ----------------
    It's too bad nobody defined "substantial".  I called COMPUSA Direct and 
    got a quote on the Starion 940.  They are retailing it for $2799 and
    will sell it to Digital Employees for $2709.  That represents a 3.2%
    discount.  According to COMPUSA, $2709 is 12% over their cost.  If true,
    their cost is $2420.  However, PC Compleat will sell the same system
    for $2262.  I suppose it's possible that Digital sells systems cheaper
    to PC Compleat than they do to COMPUSA.  Nothing is ever said about
    that though, if true.
    
    
    
    VTX EPP says:
    -------------
    FROM PC COMPLEAT:
    * You can NOW purchase and save on Digital's retail 
       line of PC systems!
    
    Experience says:
    ----------------
    Discounts vary depending on what you are purchasing.  There is no flat
    discount rate.  I was quoted a discount of nearly 25% for the Starion
    940, but only a 15% discount on the Celebris GL.  Monitors are sold
    separately, and the discount on the 17" Digital monitor was about 7%.
    Retail line of PC systems means that you are limited to the "stock" PC
    configuration.  Don't bother asking for a different disk, or video
    card.  They can't/won't do it for you.  
    
    
    VTX EPP says:
    -------------
    * You can NOW save on hundreds of other third party PC 
       software and hardware products!
    
    Experience says:
    ----------------
    Not true.  I wanted to know what my discount would be on a Sony
    Trinitron 17" Monitor and was told that our only discounts were on
    Digital products.
    
    
    VTX EPP says:
    -------------
    * You will NOW receive FREE hardware configuration!
    
    Experience says:
    ----------------
    The only thing PC Compleat was willing to do for me was to sell me the
    system without a disk or CDROM.  Of course, that meant no software as
    well.  Changing video cards, sound cards, etc....no, they don't do it.
    
    
    
    VTX EPP says:
    -------------
    NOTE: Terms and conditions of sale are governed by that of 
     the reseller purchased from.
    
    Experience says:
    ----------------
    Absolutely true.  Although Digital can safely publicize that they have
    an employee discount program, apparently the reseller determines what
    that discount will be and what will or will not be discounted.

    Re: .44
    
    Things seem to have gone into the bit bucket then, since
    PC Compleat took over.  The catalog I bought my XL from had
    menus of a variety of options that you could specify for
    each pc offered -- different video cards, sound boards, etc.
    Of course, this failed in the execution in terms of my
    receiving a semi-Heath kit, but at least the hardware pieces
    I wanted were all there.
    

    Re: .44
    
    If you compare against other "retail" systems, the Starion systems look
    very good.  If you compare against mail-order firms such as Dell,
    Micron, etc., they do fall behind.
    
    As has been mentioned often, the EPP program for PCs through PCs
    Compleat is the best deal you'll get on Digital PCs, as Digital
    subsidizes it.  Not at CompUSA.  You can get great discounts on
    accessories and software at CompUSA in my experience (50% or more in
    some cases.)
    
    					Steve

    I've witnessed this topic differently.  After intensive review of what
    PC stuff is on the market, I started shopping with a list of
    requirements.  The list was faxed and hand delivered to over 15 vendors
    and I included my search to catalogs like Damark (with their 10%
    preferred buyers discount).  I gave a few extra points for brands that
    I felt should be more reliable, better quality and support.  Software
    was harder to compare but Win95 and basics were a requirement.  All
    vendors provided their price and PC Compleat was the best deal by more
    than $200 which included delivery to my home.  This worked out very
    well because I had my list and vendors responed with their price,
    sometimes in minutes.
    
    I did the same when I added the printer.  I wanted a Canon BJ610.  My
    search had PC Compleat missing by $20 and a local Circuit City won this
    contest.  Plus if it didn't work in the first 30 days it was a local
    return.
    
    Now with my software purchases, CompUSA is the winner hands down. 
    Sam's Club, Walmart have some good pricing but with the employee
    discount at CompUSA, they have yet to be undersold.  In fact it really
    is something when you spend 99 cents for $14.99 CD-ROM.
    
    So as an informed consumer and very tight with my money, I am quite
    satisfied with the EPP pricing and benefit.  As mentioned, I am a
    member of SAMS, Damark, and Compustore.  I don't mind buying mail order
    and always shop for the lowest price.  I don't beat anybody for not
    selling what I am looking for but if they have it both CompUSA and PC
    Compleat have given good pricing.
    
    And my family is totally enjoying our Starion 930 which we chose over
    the Compaqs.  

    I have found better software prices at Sam's Club than at CompUSA with
    the Digital discount.  For example, Quicken V5 Deluxe CD is
    $58.something at CompUSA but $54.something at Sam's.  But CompUSA has
    a much better selection!
    
    				Steve

    RE: .36 .37 .40 .41
    
    From a couple of installation manuals right in front of me...
    
    Class A Computing Device
    This equipmnt generates, uses, and may emit radio frequency
    energy. The equipment has been type tested and found to comply
    with the limits for a Class A computing device pursuant to
    Supart J of Part 15 of FCC rules, which are designed to provide
    reasonable protection against such radio frequency interference
    when operated in a commercial environment. Operation of this
    equipment in a residential area may cause interference; in
    which case, measures taken to correct the interference are
    at the users expense.
    
    Class B Computing Device
    This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the
    limits for a Class B digital device, pursuant to part 15
    of the FCC rules. These limits are designed to provide
    reasonable protection against harmful interference in a
    residential installation.
    
    Bob

    Stewart,
    
    A good PC will cost at least 10,000 FF. Not to mention printer, 
    game SW, your time...
    
    Do not forget that you already spend most of your time in front of a 
    keyboard...
    
    Now, how many hours skiing will you do with the same amount
    (enjoying special Digital fares - I must frankly say that I'm jealous) ?
    
    Here comes the right question: do you REALLY need that PC ?
    I've bought a DECpc two years ago (I'm an early adopter...). It has 
    costed over 2,000 FF... and I must say that I don't use it too much !
    
    Not to mention the room it takes !
    
    Not to mention that you could be tempted to give money to the
    competition...
    
    So, the best Christmas saving, this year, is NOT TO BUY a PC.
    
    Jean.
    
    (I forgot just one thing... these so nice kids... they LOVE the "thing")
                                                                           

Just thought I'd also throw my 2p worth in here...

My parents will be buying a PC at some point over the next few months, and 
this will be *yet another* sale where their money will go to Digital's 
competition.  Reasons?  Well, I saw the `special employee discount' offered 
here (the UK) recently, and anyone who's foolish to take up the offer will be 
paying 50% (a conservative estimate) over the odds for their PC.  What's the 
point?  I mean, all it accomplishes is that if anyone who knows I'm a Digital 
employee asks about buying a Digital PC, I'll just tell them `don't bother, 
they're too bloody expensive!' (and I *really* wish I could say otherwise)

Chris.

    Just back from 'Family Christmas' with all the relatives, and got asked
    quite a few times about digital pc's. ie: 'Can you get me a deal?' and
    'what *should* I get?' Now my family is not the most computer-literate
    bunch you've ever met, but they can all program a VCR, and when they
    asked what flavor pc I bought, they were astonished. But all nodded in
    agreement when I did the comparisons. A quick survey showed that there
    were 4 "Yes. I'm getting one", and 3 "I'd like to upgrade" responses. I
    do not think those will involve digital products.
    
    Sorry, but I cannot justify another $1000-$1500 to get less than I did.
    That $$ will further my oldest's college career quite a bit. Sure I'd
    would have liked to swell with pride and say "Yes, digital gave me a
    GREAT deal", but I can't. So Packard Bell got my bucks, and digital
    didn't. But the publicity is the hard part, digital would have sold a
    few more (one brother called last night to let on about his new PB).
    
    We (digital) have many a mile to go before we gain a measureable
    marketshare in the pc area. (imo)
    
    .mike.

I take it your next car will be a Yugo?

			Steve

    re -1
    
    	If he gets two years out of it, he made his money.  Yugos were/are
    totally worthless in the showroom... not a valid comparison.

    re: .53
    
    <FLAME ON>
    
    And you refuse to drive anything but a Rolls-Royce, right Steve?
    
    The problem with comparing PB to a Yugo is that PBs ACTUALLY WORK!
    There are literally THOUSANDS of people who are satisfied with Packard
    Bell machines!  I know many of them.  If you let them use a Digital
    box, they couldn't tell the difference based on HOW THEY USE IT.
    
    We've GOT to get past this "we're better, so we don't have to compete"
    mentality.  We have to deal with the marketplace.  If most people can't
    tell the difference between PB and us, guess who will be raking in the
    profits?
    
    A better comparison to make is PB to the VW Beetle, only without the
    size stigma.  It's an economy model, but it's reliable (data)
    transportation for the masses.  Only most PB owners don't seem to be
    complaining about "it's so small" like many VW owners did.
    
    Working in this industry, I can name reasons why I'd prefer a Digital
    box on my desk instead of a Packard Bell.  But, guess what I'm using to
    write this?  A hacked-together PC using some no-name motherboard, video
    card, and EIDE controller in an off-the-boat case with a Sony CD and
    Western Digital hard drive.  Why?  BECAUSE I CAN AFFORD IT!  AND IT
    WORKS FINE, THANK YOU!
    
    To knock someone for buying Packard Bell is arrogant at best.  Glad
    you're comfy enough to buy what you want.  Just don't knock people who
    have better things to do with their money (like feeding the kids,
    etc.).
    
    -- Russ

If you're willing to accept the risk, that's fine.  The extra money for
a Digital PC doesn't just buy a Digital logo.  Packard Bell sure sells a lot
of systems.  But they also have a horrible reputation for low quality.  Most
of them work, sure.  Many don't, and the service is poor.

I knew someone who bought a Yugo.  It was the best she could afford, but
it gave her a lot of trouble - trouble she would probably have avoided by
buying a used car for the same money.

The Starion systems are quite competitive with similar-quality products from
Compaq, IBM and Hewlett-Packard (at least in the markets in which Starion is
offered.)

I've said this before - if all you are interested in is the lowest possible
purchase price, then Digital PCs aren't for you.

				Steve

    re: .56
<I've said this before - if all you are interested in is the lowest possible
<purchase price, then Digital PCs aren't for you.

    Many of us still shop at Kmart, an Walmart, too.  Not all of us see the
    reason to always buy the 'best' (your inference, not mine)
    
    I also own a Noname brand, my father-in-law a PB.  My Mother owns a
    Digital pc.  
    
    Guess which one has had ALL the problems?
    
    tony

Where one shops is not relevant, as you're comparing the same products at
each store.

Are Digital PCs "best"?  In many ways, no.  But I think they are better
designed and built than many of the lower-priced models, and the support is
better.

				Steve

    Man in computer store:  
    
    	"Can I get a box of floppy disks for my Packard Bell computer?"
    
    Salesman:
    
    	"Yeah, that's a fair trade."
    
    I would suggest Packard Bell *only* to computer-literate people with
    a lot of patience and willingness to keep plugging until they get
    one that works, and who place a fairly low valuation on the time
    they spend in the process; from eveything I've heard, you've got a
    better than even chance of getting a working Packard Bell first try,
    but only just.
    
    Does that mean "buy Digital"? Not always. We just got a notebook for
    my mother-in-law, and rejected the HiNote out of hand (got her a
    Compaq Contura). I love my HiNote, but their battery problems are
    legion, and I don't have the time to work them out long-distance for
    someone else. There's no way in <whatever> I'd get her a Packard
    Bell, even if she were on welfare. Just not worth the risk.

>Are Digital PCs "best"?  In many ways, no.  But I think they are better
>designed and built than many of the lower-priced models, and the support is
>better.

I accept that Digital PCs are well made and designed, but, in this country at 
least, the asking price (and esecially in the employee purchase con er I mean 
plan) is way over the odds.

Chris.

        <<< Note 4271.59 by SMURF::PBECK "Rob Peter and pay *me*..." >>>
    
>   I would suggest Packard Bell *only* to computer-literate people with
>   a lot of patience and willingness to keep plugging until they get
>   one that works
    
    Funny, my sister is about as computer-illiterate as they come, and her
    PB has served her well for the last two years. I had a PB 486/33 for a
    year, and other than stuffing a second disk and a CD-ROM into it, I
    never had to open it or otherwise fiddle with it. The person I sold it
    to has never called me to complain, so I can only assume it's still
    chugging along. 
    
    There is no *best* PC, there is only the PC that will best serve your
    intentions and purposes (and budget). PB became a dominant force in the
    PC industry by understanding this principle, as has Compaq, GW2000, and
    all the other big players. Digital has a niche, but I'm not 100% sure
    that they even understand the niche that they occupy, making them
    vulnerable to being knocked out at any time. 
    
    In the end, the marketplace will decide. Digital has seen fit to
    disregard any possibility of using it's own employee base as a
    synergistic marketing tool, and instead regards it as simply another
    source of potential customers. Then it'll spend millions trying to
    achieve the same marketing impact that our own word-of-mouth references
    could have generated. But *somebody's* numbers will look good ...
    
    Geoff                                        

You cannot compare PCs and cars. You should compare PCs and bags of 
sugar. Both are commodity items. Both must compete firstly on PRICE, 
then features (within reason).

Yes, our PC's are too expensive for us to purchase from DEC. For the 
same price, we can get a better deal (larger bag of sugar). Obviously, 
the powers that be do not want this to change. It may be (I'm 
guessing) that we don't make any profit from our PCs and having 60,000 
employees helping DEC to make a loss isn't acceptable.

Alan

re: Compare PC's and Cars

Apparently, at least according to CNN, Cars and PC's are now direct
competitors for each other. Used cars and PC's are in the same price
band. Lots of people now trade the purchase of a new car against 
a new pc. Perhaps defer car purchase in favor of a PC.

re: PB vs Digital PC's

Well Digital PC's have problems as well. We've had Battery problems for
a few years (don's know why that's taken so long to resolve). On my desk
I have video ram. Our groups PC expert refused to install it because
putting a Celebris back together is too difficult. 

re: Digital PC's in the Market

I read Business Week yesterday and we picked up a back-handed compliment
there. It was an article about AST, their rise fall and attempted comeback
under a new manager. The relevant bit was how this once PC powerhouse
was getting knocked out by "newcomers" like Digital Equipment. So we
do have visibility and are perceived to be making headroads in this area.

M 

    I also had a "holier than thou" attitude about Packard Bell until it
    was time to buy a significant machine for my son.  We finally bought a
    PB multimedia package with a 90MHz(?) pentium.  There has been NO
    problem with this machine in over 18 months of use.  My son has now
    upgraded with more memory and a 1.2 G disk and is doing some real work
    with it.  (Games development in C/C++)
    
    The price was hundreds of dollars below anything comparable and we got
    an extra 10% by taking the demo model off the display shelf.
    
    The difference is home vs. corporate use.  If I was to recommend
    purchase of a PC for a company I would probably not go for PB, but at
    home, where the money is coming directly out of my pocket, it's
    different.  The other thing is that as a home purchase there is
    protection through the store, the manufacturer and the credit card.
    If my son's PB had failed early on (the most likely time) we would have
    been pretty sure of getting all our money back.
    
    Axel
    failed early on 
    
     

	Cross-posted from Decstation Notes 6669.0      
	It may apply here and in CompUSA discussions else where.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------

	I have a copy of a Nationally syndicated article that speaks both 
	praise and criticism of the Starion.  I've seen this column in 
	other papers and Newsweek, but I have not seen this article anywhere 
	but in the NH Business Review, January 5-18, 1996.  It is a column 
	written by T.R. Reid and Brit Hume.  The title is 'Starion experience 
	points out value of good return policy'.  I do not have time to 
	retype here, but will gladly fax copy to any interested party.  I 
	believe Starion Product Management should read.  Better yet, if 
	someone can enter the approx 18 column inches of text, all can read.

	Executive summary:

	Authors bought Starion 920 from CompUSA.  They liked price, ease of 
	setup and percieved quality of PC.  They said documentation was very 
	lacking and did not explain FAX/modem adaquately.  The FAX could not 
	be used, online Compuserve help dis not help and Digital 800 callin 
	support never got off hold.  They returned PC to CompUSA within 30-day
	return window and have not selected alternative PC.  Moral: Buy PC 
	from vendor with good return policy to offset poor documentation and 
	weak quality control in many PCs today.  

	Dave Atkinson
	netcad::atkinson
	atkinson@lkg.dec.com

    I bought a no-name PC for my son's second semester.  I called up a mail
    order place that was offering their "Value PC".  Total price, including
    shipping was less than $900.  The kid has been sharing a 386sx with his
    roomate for the first semester.  It was delivered in a
    week, one day earlier than they said they would deliver.  It is a
    generic PC and Chris powered it up and discovered the latest AMI bios,
    100 Mhz 486DX4.  For the money it's not bad.
    
    Now I've got a long history with Digital.  There are 3 DECpc's on my
    desk right now.  There is that certain quality of workmanship in the
    case, there are beautiful plated screws, lots of little things that
    separate a quality piece of equipment from the generic crowd.  None of
    the ones on my desk actually worked when I powered them on.  They were
    all rejects from the field where they didn't work when a customer
    turned them on.  If you look beyond the paint, beyond the thickness of
    the sheet-metal you will find the same Intel logo on the CPU chip, the
    same AMI logo on the BIOS chip, the same bus chips, cache chips, memory
    simms, 3rd party disk drives, video.  One might imply that there is
    some miracle design difference to differentiate these Digital boxes
    from the No-name boxes...but there isn't.  Or maye there is.  The
    no-name boxes are more versatile.  They have more expansion slots, more
    VESA local buss slots, more power, better and quieter fans and can be
    upgraded for the price of a CPU chip.
    
    I now have 4 (working) PCs at home.  By far the most expensive is my
    stalwart DECpc 450 dx2 (Tandy) that took me 6 months to get delivered
    several years ago.  The DEC monitor (which inside says it was made by
    the same Korean company that made the monitor on my newest acquisition)
    is still working fine.  The memory (which was made by the same Korean
    company as the stuff I got for my wife's PC) works flawlessly. 
    The disk drive (which had to be replaced because it was too small and
    was incompatible with any other company's disk drives on an IDE bus) is
    still working and will be put into my next project.   The floppy drive
    had to be replaced a year ago.  $39 for a Mitsumi took care of that.  
    
    My family is such that we each spend a bit of time working on our
    computers.  It became apparent that our required work and our available
    time overlapped.  The obvious solution is that we needed several PCs
    but my budget requires that I get the absolute rock bottom price.  I
    don't really need performance.  But isn't it odd that I got more
    performance for less money -- a LOT less money -- than I can get from
    my own employer?  And then Steve says that you get what you paid for! 
    Yes, Steve, with one exception I did.
    
    Bob

    Geez, looks like I uncovered a rathole here, eh?
    
    As one who has to work on anything anybody pays digital for, I've seen
    the insides of many a computing machine. I opened the PB the next day
    just to look, and there is no real difference from any other pc brand.
    It has the plated screws, just like the dec boxes, the same flavor
    options, no real obvious areas of difference. So tell me again why I
    should spend a semesters worth of dollars to get a dec pc? I do not see
    the reasoning. Mine is as fast as yours, has the *exact* same hard
    drive/cd/floppy as yours, but still cost less. I'm happy with my
    decision, and I hope you're happy with yours.
    
    Why did they put rear window defrosters on yugos?
    
    
    So you could keep your hands warm while you pushed it home.
    
    .mike.

    There have been a few recent articles in the PC mags regarding should I
    buy the "no-name" or pay more for the "name brands".  While I'm sure
    someone will bring up the question of integrity of these articles
    because the "name brands" spend so much on advertising in these
    magazines; if you look at the last 20 pages of these mags you'll see
    all the "no-name" advertising as well.  
    
    Some of the conclusions are that the "name brands" utilize component
    testing and compatibility to design their "SYSTEMS" while the
    "no-names" pull components from the pile on the shelfs to satisfy a
    configuration with little regard for how well it all works together.  
    They verified that well designed "SYSTEMS" performed better by the normal
    application testing.  Other articles have shown that all Pentium 75 MHZ
    do not run the same and either do all 4X CD-ROMs, FAX MODEMs, etc etc.  
    Using the car analogy just because two cars have a 8 cylinder engine 
    doesn't mean they perform/run the same.  And yeah we all use the same gas 
    and have four tires, "stereo CD Player with 4 speakers" and on and on. 
    But does that mean they are the same??  Any junk yard could piece
    together a car which will drive down the street but how many of you
    would buy this car even though your configuration list was filled.  I
    remember when a consumers group tested the "bumper to bumper, anyplace
    anytime" car warranties by going out to the desert and calling in with
    a problem.  Only one manufacturer made their commitment but the others
    all "said" and published the support contracts.  How good are the
    warranty/maintenance/support agreements with the PC vendors.
    
    Final conclusion in my own words was to spend the most you could afford
    and buy from a reliable company that has been around and should be
    around in the future.  IT IS NOT ARROGANCE, for someone to make similar
    recommendations.  As 10,000 - 20,000 businesses fold every quarter, I
    think it's best to give the recommendation above and discuss all of the
    risks if someone decides differently.  Once you have gotten through
    this discussion, then you can discuss who the major companies are (in
    each of our own opinions) and price shop for the best value.

    
    
    RE: .68    well said.    We have a new Packard Bell Pentium 100 here
               in the PCBU for competitor evaluation.  It runs like a dog,
    	       due to having NO L2-cache.  The inexperienced buyer looking
    	       at price only when comparing other vendor Pentium 100
               systems will most likely miss this fact.
    
    gb
    

Yeah - like the Starion 915? (100MHz, no L2 cache)

I saw a note from a user on CompuServe - praising his Starion and saying it has
worked flawlessly, unlike the AST he originally bought that crashed repeatedly.

				Steve

    
    re: NO L2 cache
    
    Isn't Digital currently (or recently) selling models with no L2 cache as
    well? I believe many manufacturers do/did the same (not that I'd want one!)
    
    

    Starion 910, 920 didn't have L2 cache.
    
    Once Intel's Triton2 chipset gets out you should see many more
    L2-less configs.  It should become the defacto standard in the
    cost-sensitive retail market.  (Triton2 basically fulfills the
    promises that Triton1 made around cacheless performance...
    a cacheless Triton2 should perform like asynch does now on
    other chipsets).  Future price-sensitive Alpha (is that an
    oxymoron?) boxes may also do without L2 cache.  Kratz

I noticed that InfoWorld is reporting Digital's PC shipments for the last five quarters and that
shipments peaked at 126,000 in Q1 of the calendar year, declined in Q2, and declined again
in Q3.  It's going to be hard to break into the top five category if the data they reported is correct.

    Re: .73
    
    Depends on what the quarterly cyclical pattern for pc sales
    is.
    

Of course, it might also have to do with silly little things like
advertising and visibility.

The one PC mag I get (PC World) has ads by Compaq, GW2000, DELL, Micron,
HP, ALR, Acer, ... every month.  It's been well over a year now since I've
seen *any* Digital advertising.  The phrase "noticably absent" comes
to mind.

There were only two references to Digital in the index - not advertising
related.  One is a stale pointer to a table we just got pushed out
of (Top 20).  The other is a product review of the Celebris GL-ST
with a batch of Pentium/166s.  It was noticably 1) the slowest of the 6
systems reviewed and 2) the most expensive.

.73 reformatted for the 80-col impaired.     
    
   >I noticed that InfoWorld is reporting Digital's PC shipments for the
   >last five quarters and that shipments peaked at 126,000 in Q1 of the
   >calendar year, declined in Q2, and declined again in Q3.  It's going
   >to be hard to break into the top five category if the data they reported
   >is correct.
    
      I would imagine that, in retail at least, the last quarter of the
    calendar year is strongest, due to pre-Xmas sales. Q3 is probably
    slowest, with people on vacation, or saving their money for same. This
    was probably even more so last year, with people waiting for Windows 95.
    Pity then that the HiNotes and HiNote Ultras ceased manufacturing in
    September, with no replacement yet announced (although a Pentium laptop
    is rumoured to have been promised). If the Starion topic in this
    conference is to be believed sales of that range have been a fraction of
    what they COULD have been had systems been advertised and *available*.
    
      How many orders were cancelled because of failure to meet promised
    delivery dates? How many more were never placed because potential
    buyers either did not know of their existence, could not see one because
    the store had none in stock, or didn't want to wait even for the quoted
    (never mind the actual!) delivery date? If they could have been
    produced, how many more might have been sold in Europe? Does anyone in
    the PCBU have any idea what the answers to any of these questions are?
    I realise that most could never be more than educated guesses, but an
    exact answer to the first question at least should be available from
    somewhere; has anyone ever asked? 
    
    Ken

    
    >I would suggest Packard Bell *only* to computer-literate people with
    >a lot of patience and willingness to keep plugging until they get
    >one that works, and who place a fairly low valuation on the time
    >they spend in the process; from eveything I've heard, you've got a
    >better than even chance of getting a working Packard Bell first try,
    >but only just.
    
    If you have the time and experience to muck with your PB (or any other
    system) to get it to function properly, there's a much better, far more
    cost effective solution.
    
    Go to your local computer hobbyist shop (here in Houston I use EPO,
    UBM, and Computer Planet, depending on who has which components on
    special in a given week) and purchase what you need to assemble your
    system from components.  In my experience, 1) the overall cost is
    SUBSTANTIALLY lower (I put together a 66mh 486 system for around $500)
    2) the owners of these places are typically VERY competent hobbyists
    who can give some sound advice on component selection and
    compatibility, and 3) the service is first-rate.  These are small
    business people and are as a general rule far more responsive to
    customer needs that the computer "superstores" I've shopped.  I've had
    no issues with part returns, I've had the owners help me to test my
    configurations and components right there in the shop, and if you
    establish a sufficiently good working relationship with these guys, it
    can have a number of fringe benefits.  I've had some that would take my
    old components in trade when I upgraded, that would call me when
    another customer traded in parts that I wanted (which they tested
    thoroughly), etc.
    
    It really isn't very hard to assemble a PC from components, doesn't
    require much in the way of tools (minimally, a grounding strap and a
    couple of screwdrivers), it's a terrific learning experience, and you get
    EXACTLY what you want in a system.  If you've got older children, it's a
    womderful family project that will teach them a great deal about how
    computers really work.  And imagine how proud you will be when they
    show all their friends their cool new multi-media system (that you
    couldn't otherwise afford) and tell them that "this is the computer
    that mom/dad and I built".
    
    I'm really pleased with my "lower than no-name system" and I doubt that
    I'll ever buy another system.  I'll just keep changing this one as my
    needs change  (well, at least until I can afford that Alpha server :-)
    
    BTW, don't try this with your Yugo...
    
    
    						/Rita
    

    re: .77
    
    Cool!  
    
    Can you enter a BOM of your system?
    
    I'm real curious.  Just something like:
    
    part-description		price-paid
    ----------------		----------
    
    
    thanks
    Steve
    
    P.S.  Perhaps you might start a new note so this note's thread isn't
    so abruptly changed!

The keyword .77 used is "time" - I figured that by the time I got everything
working correctly (mostly) on the system I built (and I still cannot get one
package to run reliably), I could have purchased a Starion at retail.  Compare
that with I have never had a single problem with software on my Starion.

The kids are very proud of Dad "Look at the PC my Dad built, I can't run my
favorite game on it yet, but that's ok.   Dad!!!!!  It just rebooted again!"

Your milage may vary.

    re .75
    PC World (February) did slam the GL166.  Windows Magazine (February)
    loved it.  Depends on who you read.
    
    The GL does run into a paradox: the embedded ethernet, sound, and
    SCSI take up resources.  Turn these off (actually SCSI was disabled),
    you get faster performance.  We get measured against systems that
    don't have these features.  Unfortunately, you can't depend on the
    reviewers noticing these things are there if they're disabled.
    Kratz

    re: .79
    
    Of course, the other side of the coin is acquisition of a viable skill.
    
    Now, assembling a  PC isn't rocket science, but once you've done it a
    few times, it IS something that could work in your favor should you
    have a "life after Digital".
    
    It's true that a serious 15 year old could do fine assembling PCs, but
    you'd be surprised how many people won't pop the top of one.  Having
    someone who can install hardware without destroying things is
    considered an asset in many companies.
    
    Beyond that, it's also (a) fun, and (b) gives you ultimate control of
    your options when you roll your own.  There's no such thing as "this is
    a good system, but it doesn't have enough slots" or "this disk is a
    little small", etc.
    
    I started building PCs a few years back with a book and a bunch of
    obsolete hardware acquired from the IBMPC conference.  I toasted a
    couple of controllers early on (cost me about $20 total), but I've
    built every system I've owned since then.  Heck, even if you get stuck
    with a bad component, you can throw it away and buy a new one and STILL
    save considerable amounts of money over most name brands.
    
    As far as "time is money" goes, that may be true if you have outside
    employment, but not if your paycheck comes only from Digital (and you
    are salaried).
    
    -- Russ

        >Now, assembling a  PC isn't rocket science, but once you've done it a
        >few times, it IS something that could work in your favor should you
        >have a "life after Digital".
    
    Gee, sometimes it even works in your favor during "Life At Digital".
    I've been working in the PC space for Digital for the past 6 years. All
    those late nights of hacking, reading and learning have paid off fine
    for me! :-)
    
    Harry
    

I saw at Lechmere's in Nashua, NH last week that the Digital Starion 920
was noted as "discontinued, but sell the rest of the stock".  No other
models were on display.

How are we ever going to sell many of these things when half the time
they are out of stock and the other half of the time, the salepeople are
saying the model is discontinued?

Garry

    re: the "build-your-own" substring.
    
    Instead of buying the parts, buy a complete PC from your friendly,
    local
    computer guy.
    
    You get local support, the guy (lady) who runs it is competent, and you
    may save a few bucks.
    
    BTW, anyone who implies that PB is a no-name, or second tier machine
    doesn't understand market share...And if you assume the market is
    stupid, then obviously, the product is lousy.
    
    Also, PB is majority owned by Bull, who also bought the old Zenith Data
    Systems.
    
    I wonder if these machines pop off the same assembly line.
    
    $.02
    
    gc

    re. .84,
    
    I believe it is the Zenith machines coming off the Packard Bell
    assembly lines...
    
    Regards,
    David.

    re: .84,.85 Interesting comments. I have a friend (former DECcie) who
    works for Zenith Data Systems. He USED to work on the PB account. Last
    summer he relocated back to Mass. from CA because Zenith and PB had a
    "parting of the ways". Now he spends a lot of time in France.....
    
    Debbie
    

    
    RE:  .86
    
    is this our old buddy Mike A.... he changes jobs faster than anyone I
    know.
    
    gb
    
    
    

    Re .86,.87....Yes, it is. He hasn't changed jobs....same job, same
    company, just a new focus.
    
    Debbie
    

    Re. .86 - Mike Angeley - that is a name from the past. He was in the
    PCBU before it was a BU!
    
    Regards,
    David.