Conference 7.286::digital

    Question to be answered is which is going to win: the Rules or the
    Business?
    In my account (in Holland) the customer is willing to buy our products
    from Digital. When we informed him that the PC part of the order should
    go to a reseller he bought Compaq from this reseller. Clever or stupid?
    BTW this customer was also quite upset that in the process we forced
    him to increase his administrative overhead considerably.

    I suggest you negotiate with the PCBU. They do NOT like to lose the
    business of 1000+ PCs/year per major account. They will help you, as I
    did experience.
    
    lex

Well .. if they are asking you to go to the outside, why not test the
ice and open up the bid for other suppliers? I mean, if they claim to
be so competitive then you should obviously get one of the best bids
from Digital. And if you don't .. no need to worry because we do multi
vendor support .. so sell 'em Compaqs if you have to.

>Per

    
    As of Jan. 1, 1995 it is true for the MCS organization and I assume
    all other non PC PBU groups. We used to place demand on the Kanata
    plant for DEC PC product we now have to use distributors. So for every
    DEC product we procure for a customer we have to take out a new Digital 
    part number which represents the vendor part number which represents the 
    Digital FR part number who we now view as the OEM. Get the picture
    here?
    
    When we (we do PC integration) tried to work this with the MCS account 
    team and their customers needless to say the customers got a bit upset.
    Different part number,different pricing...etc. MCS account managers,in 
    some instances, have received dispensation from the PC PBU and are being 
    allowed to procure product direct from Kanata using FR part numbers.
    
    
    It all comes down to revenue also..if it's an FR part number that being
    ordered the PC PBU gets credit. If it's coming from a distributor the 
    product has a different part number and MCS gets credit.
    
    It's a headache for everyone.
                       

    So, are you telling us that this is one of those things that
    financially helps one part of DIGITAL at the expense of another, with
    the customer left holding the bag?  And that the part of DIGITAL that
    is to be financially helped if this is done is the part that is setting
    the new policy?  
    

    re .0: This has been going on for quite some time here in Germany...
    
    A few months ago, I ordered two disks for our office PCs (without
    specifying the exact type, just the approximate size we needed).
    In the good old times, I could have easily checked whether DECdirect
    had them in stock - and if they did, I'd usually receive the stuff
    within two days.
    
    Now, the order passes through the full purchasing mechanism to the
    dealer (one of the approved dealers). After about a month there was
    still no trace of the disks, so I started asking questions... assuming
    maybe the dealer didn't have them in stock.
    
    The problem was apparently that we (DEC, oops Digital) hadn't paid our
    bills, so they were not shipping anything to us.
    
    Eventually, the problem was solved, and I received the disks. Not DEC
    disks, not even Quantum, but Micropolis...

    Sorry,but the current situation makes a lot of sense.I am PCI product
    manager for MCS in Europe and had the same reaction as you all-why
    couldn't I buy direct?
    The PC market is a commodity market evolving towards what could be
    called a specialty commodity market.The market forces mean cutting all
    possible cost items to be competitive-most of these are in the supply
    chain.Most manufacturers use the same model and the same distibutors
    etc.The PCBU has no stocking area in its supply model.It also has no
    sophisticated ordering and scheduling.It produces in bulk and ships in
    bulk(like they all do).
    So,you want to order a PC or PCs directly-is your business unit ready
    to make a forecast,take the stock,take the stock risk and ship in ones
    and twos?You must be joking.It is easy to say when you can't measure
    the costs of these processes and it's very easy to say that it is all
    just part of the big Digital.If you measure it,it makes no sense at
    all.We give first line distributors a discount and margin opportunity
    so that all these tasks are taken away from the PCBU business model.
    The downside for SI/CSS/ABU etc etc is that instead of getting the
    MARGIN equivalent to sales price minus standard cost(the good old
    days),they get a margin of between 14-20%.
    This is right-it puts us on a clear and accountable and comparable
    footing with our competitors.No more funny money.
    THis margin is also OK!.As a margin,it does not have to support all the
    costs as though we were making them ourselves.It is considered as a
    third party purchase and resell and normally 15% or so gross is zero
    nett-so above say 15%,you make a nett profit for the corporation,which
    is probably better than most businesses these days.
    The PCBU makes an item and sells it at a profit for Digital.so they
    aren't skinning us.IF we choose to apply our costs to resell it,then we
    have to bear in mind that these costs must be covered(see
    above),otherwise we shouldn't do it.Period.
    The idea is selling Compaq or bidding Compaq will be met competitively
    by the PCBU.Usually if you need a price,you will get one but don't
    dream that we should by direct.It makes no financial or business
    sense.It only makes 'sense' when the books are cooked.
    I am looking for a distributor deal where I get to rent the
    distributors logistics systems for a guaranteed margin(like 2% retained
    margin).This will allow me to sell at around 20% margin.
    All figures are rough and these opinions are mine..

    .6 had a good counter-argument imho.  More facts from others?
    

re.6:

If Digital buys Digital PCs in volume for its own use and to resell, then how
about Digital becoming a reseller? As long as the PCBU doesn't have to run the
operation and we only sell into Digital and ABU accounts everyone will go away
happy. 

Dave.

This is the way the PC business works these days, as the customer I
consult for discovered recently.  He wanted to buy PCs from HP Germany
and was told to go to a dealer.  The dealer sold him Compac.  He then
passed the recommendation on to his customers (he's a computer center).
At least one of the customers went to his own dealer (a former Digit)
and is likely to buy Digital PCs.

The PC marketplace is looking more and more like a grocery store, with
brand lined up next to brand, each trying to persuade the customer that
there is a better reason to buy me than him.  The big difference is that
a box of cornflakes doesn't require service calls.

For the life of me, I don't know why anybody would want to be a PC maker.

Steve

    re .8
    The same sorts of reason why,at first glance,running a supermarket is
    stupid.Between 0 and 2% gross profit and most of that in retrospective
    discounts.
    The PCBU makes a small profit.It generates huge quantities of cash and
    it makes us a player-ie we are in the technology loop and the marketing
    loop and BTW we DO buy PCS in large quantities and resell them.Who do
    you think makes the PCs we sell-not alwyas Digital-this is secondary
    however.
    If we made a loss on the PC business consistantly,then the cash reasons
    would not be good enough to stay in it.The thing we are not doing well
    in my not so humble opinion,is getting the leveraged business in
    services and integration.
    The reasons for these latter two are simple-every Tom,Dick and Harry in
    Digital is a PC integration expert(partially because of the old booking
    rules-you get the revenue for standard product) and mainly because of
    what is called the 'channel conflict issue'.In brief,this  means our
    channels like to supply services too(since their margins are low).
    Since we have this fetish about putting business via channels in
    general(yes it is called shooting yourself in the foot)-we exacerbate
    our own problems.One day,clients won't need anything other than
    catalogues-SI will have completely(not almost,as now) gone to channels
    (not in itself THAT bad),but we will be left with zero client knowledge
    and zero added value-unless we keep our lists of partners secret and
    only divulge them on payment.
    In short,the PCBU situation is only highlighting fundamental problems
    of Digital but they are actually doing the right thing financially.When
    interbusiness unit pricing is in place,we WILL have fun!
    fun.

    RE: 10
    
    "The PCBU makes a small profit. It generates huge quantities of cash
    and it makes us a player-ie we are in the technology loop and the ...."
    
    
    That's strange that you mentioned that the PCBU makes a profit. I heard
    that last quarter alone it lost $50 million dollars.

    RE .10
    
    That "someday" is here now. Think about it. This whole SBU/ABU
    organization thing that we're going through right now is the final shoe
    dropping on the demise of the "old DEC". What's left is a supply side
    organization - the SBU - and a Manufacturers Rep organization - the ABU
    - that is still trying to come to grips with it's new role. Digital has
    returned to its roots as a manufacturing company and is paring down to
    compete in the real world of the commodity marketplace. The ABU is but
    an echo of the hay-days of the solution sell, end-user sales and SI
    organizations. 
    
    As one of the remaining dinosaurs from those old solution-selling days, 
    it has been difficult for me to get through that knothole. However, now
    that I at least see the light, I'm concerned about the current ABU
    strategy in this brave new world. Of most concern is the thought that
    an ABU rep is really a marketeer, rather than a saleman, with the role
    of steering the large customers' business towards the proper Digital
    channel. Having been in both sales and marketing roles, I can attest to
    the great differences in the roles and the different skill sets
    required. It is as ludicrous to assume that last years good sales rep
    will make this years good marketing rep as it was in the past to assume
    that a good sales rep would make a good sales unit manager. So, my
    concern is that the new skills required for success as an ABU rep may
    not be what the typical successful sales rep brings to the party. In
    fact, some of the characteristics of a good sales rep may work against
    a person assigned to be an ABU Account Manager/Sales Rep. Hopefully
    some thought is being given to the re-skilling that will be required to
    be a successful ABUer.
    
    I would like to also thank the Noter in the .06 reply for a very good
    (if somewhat hard to read) explaination of the PCBU business model. I
    posted a note somewhere else in this conference that alluded to the
    fact (pointed out by Scott Roeth recently) that we lose 18% on every
    directly sold PC order vs. PC orders sold through channels. That should
    give you some idea about how high the ABU direct sales overhead is these 
    days. 
    
    I guess the bottom line is, it's time to put away the old Bob Dylan
    song about "The times they are a changin'" - they done changed Tonto.
    The decision now is do you have the skills and the desire to be a
    part of what we've become? 
    
    -OFWAMI- 

re.10:

You've lost me. If companies are willing to be Digital PC resellers then they
are either stupid or can make money at it. Let's assume the 2nd is right. If
money can be made (does not matter how much) after overheads, then providing we
have the volume internally and via the ABU there is no reason that Digital can
not be a PC reseller of Digital PCs, save money, and keep the customer happy. 

Dave.

    .13  This is an on-going discussion.  The fact is that the reseller is
    better at doing that work than Digital.  It's a matter of competency
    and of investment history.  The reseller is typically very lean, has a
    geographic base of coverage and has an investment in facilities etc.
    that caters for volume sales.  Usually they resell a whole heap of
    other stuff and get economies of scale. 
    
    Could Digital set up it's own high volume resale organisation?  Sure,
    but it would need investment and would once again send a signal to the
    rest of the partners that we were competing against them.  Given the
    reality of the world neither of those things is going to happen.

I think .13 is almost certainly right, that the reseller is better at
selling PCs than Digital is.  PCBU will surely do better by doing as
little of the selling itself as possible.

Where the problem arises, as has been observed already in this thread,
is when ABU, as you would expect from a Client/Server company, has an
account that wants to buy PCs.  If I were a salesman, I would feel like
a blithering idiot, telling a customer, "Sure, I'll be glad to sell you
200 AXPs, but I can't sell you the 1500 PCs you want to buy."  Yes, I
know our resellers don't like it when we take that business for ourselves,
but I also know what our customers think, based on my customers reaction
to HP's identical behavior.

Glad I'm not a salesman.  How do you folks in sales handle it?

Steve

    RE: .15
    
    We blither a lot! Actually, since HP and most of our full-line (a
    relative term at best) competitors have gone the same route, it has
    become much easier to just state - "we, like H-P and others, no longer
    sell the very low margin items that we manufacture, such as PCs and
    printers, through our direct sales channel, please see one of our dealers."
    In the case of a big, integrated C/S deal, I would certainly hope that 
    you would have thought of that in the early stages and have introduced 
    the concept of "partnering" with a supplier of those components on the 
    deal.
    
    -OFWAMI-

re.14:

>    .13  This is an on-going discussion.  The fact is that the reseller is
>    better at doing that work than Digital.  

Come on, this isn't rocket science.

>    Could Digital set up it's own high volume resale organisation?  Sure,
>    but it would need investment and would once again send a signal to the
>    rest of the partners that we were competing against them.  

The suggestion was a channel for ordering Digital PCs for internal use and 
for our ABU customers not compete with Partners, don't know where you got 
the compete idea from.

Dave.

    re .13
    Most make a bit of money,but not much and if they do it is usually out
    of services.The 'churn' in resellers is very high.The top distributors
    like Merisel and Computer 2000 make maybe 2m$ on a turnover of
    2000m$(these are rough but give you an idea of the orders of
    magnitude).
    We do have the volume internally-we dilute this and our purchasing
    leverage by a)messages like we don't sell PCs direct and b)everybody
    doing their own mini-version of a loss making VAR.The direct/indirect
    message is usually misinterpreted.
    
    We are going to consolidate our spending on PCs for DIRECT supply to
    clients who want them but NOT by direct purchase from the PCBU.As
    outlined previously,this makes no sense.The clients who want these PCs
    will mostly be ABU accounts,they will usually want some type of
    integration,they will usually have a need for complex network
    services,they will usually want volume and deployment help and will
    most likely want some kind of PC Utility sales approach.We will often
    be called upon to work with partners or PC VARS to satisfy these
    clients.
    If they don't fit the above model in most areas,a closer analysis will
    reveal that we have insufficient added value to cover our sales costs.
    
    If the client wants three PCs and complains that Digital won't supply
    direct at a large discount,then I will send you my suggestions by mail.
    
    Sorry for the usual difficulty in parsing my text but I never did get
    the hang of line feeds.
    
    No,I do not work for the PCBU,but I do understand their business model
    and how MCS must fit into it(I think..)
    Cheers

    RE: .18
    
    The problem with reading your notes is the lack of spaces after
    punctuation marks.
    
    I think Dave Kerrell's idea is a pretty sound one. Maybe it's too
    sensible...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    Another selling strategy point I have not seen mentioned so far is
    credibility. It is a lot easier to sign up new distributors and
    resellers if you are not competing with them. This is the beauty of the
    100% indirect model.
    
    Maurice

    The sum-total of all these discussions is that, if you want to sell
    Digital PC's as part of an integrated system, you have to work at it.
    You have to procure them through a distributor and go through the same
    procedures as you would with any non-Digital product. Therefore, it
    actually gives you the integrator more freedom to truly pick the most
    appropriate solution, be it D-E-C, N-E-C, H-P, I-B-M, or X-Y-Z. So
    don't get caught up in trying to sell Digital stuff at all costs,
    because it doesn't sound like anyone is interested. Do what's right
    for the customer.
    
    Geoff

    How about this story folks:
    
    I'm a Channels SBU account manager.  Translation, I work in the SBU
    food chain.  In Q1, I had an opportunity to work a systems sales for an
    Alpha 2100AXP for a manufacturing control system and 90 Digital
    CelebrisXL 90Mhz pentiums.  The customer wanted to purchase all of it
    from me direct.  As a point of referance we do about $12M per year with
    this customer as a VAR.  I sold them the Alpha direct, but had to send
    the PC's through a reseller because we don't do PC's direct anymore,
    fact.  Not only do we don't do them direct, in order to drive the
    proper behavior, Digital does not give me any sales credit for the PC
    portion of this order.  That's right, no credit against my 90 day goal
    sheet.
    
    The customer, who is a good friend of mine, and used to work for us
    many moons ago couldn't believe this at all.  I ended up flipping the
    PC deal to a distributor and guided them through the process of
    pricing, configuration, quoting, presenting and closing the PC portion
    which amounted to roughly $200K.  So what's wrong with this picture?
    
    		WE STILL HAD TO DO ALL THE WORK!!!
    
    Bottom line is Digital received a nice piece of business but hey, we're
    not in the direct PC business folks at all and if anyone thinks we are
    then we're crazy.  I'm not going to even worry about the little buggers
    anymore, no credit= not on my radar screen for sell'able products.

    
    	Sounds more like we don't know what we are doing...
    
    	In retail one must always make sure you have more of the "little"
    stuff around just in case, and our Digital Account Mgrs. are probably
    learning as they go...
    
    	Having spent considerable time in the dealer end of things, you
    always have extra mice, documentation, floppies, cables, etc. available
    at a moments notice to take care of these things.
    
    	The fact is we are treading in water over our heads with support
    systems, business systems, and controls geared for big iron. My
    question is when will we learn, and how much it is going to cost us,
    and downsizing and reorganizing is NOT the answer. But our 'core
    compentency' is hard at work picking up them options...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

re:	<<< Note 3738.23 by MKOTS1::PAPPALARDO "PCBU Mfg/Logistics" >>>
    From your note....

>    Here's an example:;

>    however, if upon 
>    opening their box they're missing a mouse ....
    
>    One more...One day I get a call from a customer who bought a
>    DEC-Printer from a retail super store...the gentleman says;
>    "I'm missing my users-guide.." Sir, what's your digital ref# or PO#...
    
    In both cases, sounds like DEC screwed up....didn't put a mouse
    in box, didn't put a a users guide in.

    Sounds like we better clean up our act or these retailers will drop
    us like a rock.

    
    re:25
    
    I agree however, I need a DEC# or po# for cost. We have no problem
    making sure a short-ship is filled...the cost btw is internal.....
    
    I do have a problem when a distrib/reseller tells their customer to 
    call us. I want the reseller to take care of their customer and only
    the reseller to call us....then I have something to execute.........
    
    Also, the short-ship problems are being worked..
    
    
    

    I deleted a few paragraphs of anecdotes about the growing pains
    Hardcopy is having in retail. But I did want to note that the C&P
    hotline people do a great job of trying to satisfy those kind of issues
    when they hear about them. 
    
    (And they don't ask for a P.O. number first, either.)

I'll try and sum this up, just so you can confirm whether I'm getting this 
right or not:-

We've given away our ABU PC business in return for pursuading resellers to sign
up with us. 

We still get to do all the pre-sales work for the customer and pay the reseller
a profit for stocking our products.

We got out of the PC direct business because some people believed that we didn't
make a profit.

We now lose even more money because the reseller didn't take on the pre-sales
work?

Dave.

    
    The PCBU strategy is great , it just misses a small point.

    What is the percentage of DEC PCs sold to DEC installed base ?
    I would guess it's very large, DEC installed base is actually the only 
    reason PCBU could sell anything at all.

    By separating PC sales from all project/system sales, PCBU closes major 
    sells channel. 

    Instead of emulating blindly other PC business one could have come up
    with a creative solution and benefit from installed base rather the
    turning back to it.  

    				

    I too thought the "can't supply Digital PCs directly" strategy was
    going to cost us heaps.
    
    Now I'm not so sure.
    
    I'm a Program Manager.  I've been involved in a lot of Projects where
    we've had to buy 3rd party gear and incorporate it into our solution. 
    Once you know how that's done, it's a piece of cake (administratively
    anyway).
    
    Bringing in a PC supplier should be no different today then it was 5
    years ago.  Then, you could 'Prime' the deal and write a DEC invoice
    for the total, or you could 'Partner' the deal and the customer would
    get multiple invoices.  If it's cost justified, I don't see why we
    couldn't do the same today, regardless of who's name is on the PC.
    
    I also understand that the VAR (or whatever their relationship) will
    get a lower discount for gear they purchase where they did not do the
    value added selling (e.g. where Digital calls them and says "Got an
    order for you for n PCs - they get less discount then if they do the
    upfront work themselves.)
    
    Two major advantage from a Project perspective.  You tend to have more
    leverage over 3rd parties (aka payment).  Secondly, if there aren't any
    Brand X PCs in stock, 3rd party vendors are more likely to be able to
    supply an alternative.
    
    Would I rather deal with 1 Order Administrator/Logistics organisation? 
    You bet.
    
    Can I make it work through 3rd party retailers?  Watch me!
    
    Bill

    RE .29   Most of PC sales to install base.
    
    I'm in PC sales and 90% of my sales are to the non-install base. 
    
    Also you wouldn't believe how lousy a job all of our resellers do with
    supporting customers. We supposedly give big discounts to resellers to
    sell and support our customers. Most of the time when a customer has a
    problem with a PC they purchased from a reseller who purchased it from
    a master reseller digital gets the phone call to resolve the issue.
    
    I have even had customers call me when a third party board causes a
    problem and the system works great without the third party board. The
    customer feels DEC should resolve, not the reseller.
    
    Also from what I have seen of resellers is, its mostly PC novices
    paid minimum to take orders. They run when its time to resolve problems
    or do returns.

    THis string reminds of when I first started working for Digital. I was
    a RSTS/E specialist (as well as TOPS-10 so that dates me) and a
    customer in Las Vegas was one step away from sending a nasty KO letter.
    Seems they had purchased a small PDP-11 from a VARwith some application
    software and the darn thing NEVER worked. Wouldn't even boot properly!
    No one from Digital had ever heard of this customer or had any idea of
    what config, etc. he had. But the system said "digital" on it, so they
    looked in the phone book and called our office after the VAR was
    unable/unwilling to help them. 
    
    WHen I got there I discovered most of the software manuals still in
    their shrink wrap (these customers had never even had a computer before
    this) and the system sitting in a corner turned off. Seems the VAR was
    supposed to train them on RSTS/E system management and the application
    software, but somehow never did. This customer had been bad-mouthing
    Digital, NOT the VAR, to other businesses in L.V. (which is really a
    small town), so we felt it was worth it for me to go up and do a week's
    free consulting to get them back on track.
    
    Well, it all turned out fine in the end. The customer was happier than
    a pif in sh*t by the end of the week and realized that it was the VAR
    he was supposed to be upset with, not us. He went on to be a very good
    customer in the long run.
    
    So this isn't a new phenomenon.....its just magnified 7000-fld because
    we've hoisted the majority of our customers off onto distributors and
    VARS.
    
    Debbie
    

    RE .32
    
    Digital was probably making a 100% profit or more on that PDP.  With
    PC's its probably down to 15% profit. 

    What we got is a Major Iron company trying to transition from selling
    directly to indirectly through business partners.
    
    Imagine, wanting to purchase a car.  You happen to catch a few adverts
    on the toob, and in the newspaper, and in mags, and your neighbour's
    new car, etc.,
    
    Do you call the factory where they make them? or do you look for a
    dealer in your neighborhood?
    
    I work for the ABU in DECdirect Canada.  1-800-Digital is the catch all
    for all customers for info/pricing, short ships, misships, etc.,
    
    Until we put resources in place for the SBU (our channels partners),
    like a real fast E-Store, with Pricing/Tech info/advice with EDI for
    order entry, and CDrom or internet access for the techie ? then we will
    continue to chew up valuable Digital time/$ supporting our partners'
    customers.
    
    Also we need to make it the partner's responsibility to handle the
    customer's issue, not Digital directly.
    
    I get 60% of all my calls from SBU customers because the partner is not
    as responsive as we are, or the end user is calling the source to find
    out the truth, because their partner can sell our products cheaply but
    tells them if you need to ask ? then call 1-800-Digital for info.
    
    Our partners should be calling ISS,but they are not bothering, various
    reasons, but I believe that ISS is a wonderfull resource.
    
    There is a limited amount of resources for us, except the mighty fine
    folks at 1-800-DEC-Sale, or ISS or whatever they are called nowadays!
    
    the Canadian DECdirect catalog has been killed, the SOC hard copy is
    available 4 months after Nov's announcement, Our Canadian Partner ONYX
    has a Canadian ized version of the DECdirect catalog on
    CROM/Interactive, with Canadian prices.
    
    The Corporate product managers are rarely there, and new product
    announcements rarely have the details.
    
    any comments from the TCC folks in DECdirect US ??
    
    
    GP 

    re: .34
    
    >Until we put resources in place for the SBU (our channels partners),
    >like a real fast E-Store, with Pricing/Tech info/advice with EDI for
    >order entry, and CDrom or internet access for the techie ? then we will
    >continue to chew up valuable Digital time/$ supporting our partners'
    >customers.
    
    Check out DECgenisys.
    
    Bob
    

    
    	Why don't you, -1, check out DECgenisys? It is NOT what it is
    cracked up to be...
    
    	I know because I work with VARs. It is not easy to use, requires
    lots of effort for no real return to a VAR. As one said, "This stuff
    is me doing your work".
    
    		
    		the Greyhawk

    Ok , what is DECgenisys?  Is there an SPD in VTX IR that I should refer
    to?
    
    I found a reference to a video of this product but no info on it.
    
    Comments??
    
    GP

    Call:
    
    Common Name:   GORDON ALBURY
    Search Surname:  ALBURY  Search Given Name:  GORDON,  GORDON WAYNE
    DTN:  483-4242  Intrnl Mail Addr:  SCA1  Location:  SCA
    Org Unit:  MCS OPERATIONS
    
    								Tex

    
    	Mike -AMEN..
    
    	And to the DECgenisys group. Sorry - it is not a bad product, it
    	is a product designed to put our existing systems in front of
    	the VAR. Therefore it reflects all the nits, lint, and bugs
    	inherent in those systems; it also handles reseller sales out
    	which VARs object to in that they feel what my original quote
    	stated.
    
    	See, I can be nice...
    
    
    		the Greyhawk ;-)

>    	See, I can be nice...
    
    Yeah, but it's out of character and you're scarin' the horses... :^]
    
    							Tex

    Great one, Tex! I burst out laughing... :-)
    
    Harry
    

    Many thanks for all the replies to my base note which gave me a very
    good picture of what's going on, both in theory and practice. In this
    particular instance I just needed a small number of PC's, so the part
    about negotiating with the PCBU didn't really come into play, although
    for other projects with larger numbers I can see this being the way to
    go.
    
    A comical sequel to our order to the local Digital PC distributor was
    that we spent a week trying to find out the whereabouts of one PC that
    the distributor claimed they'd delivered to us. What had happened was
    that instead of it being shipped to our goods inward department it was
    delivered to the offices of the PCBU which is in the same building! So
    much for saving Digital money! Virtually speaking the PC went from the
    PCBU to the distributor then back to the PCBU where we were able to
    pick it up from.
    
    Mike

Oh, man ...

A friend called me last night and (paraphrasing) said "I've been seeing all
those full-page ads for Digital's new HiNote Ultra.  I think I'd like to
buy one, but before I do, I'll have to actually see and touch it.  What's
the name of the Digital dealer nearest Nice?"  (I'm at the Valbonne site.)

So of course I had to tell him there's no such thing as a "Digital dealer".

He asked me to find anyplace within about 30km where he can see one.
Dandy, there's a company right near the office that's authorized to sell
them, but they don't actually have any to show.  A call to the French PCBU
also didn't turn up any dealers, but they were able to give me the name of
a company that'll have a truck with a travelling network show that has one
installed, and where my friend will be able to catch a glimpse of the PC
when the truck parks here one afternoon, the week after next.

I was embarrassed to have to tell him all this.

___Pete

    Pete,
    Tell him to come to Hong Kong.  One thing the PCBU has done really well
    is to get our highnotes and ultras in view.  Go to any 'computer mall'
    and you will see highnotes in every other shop and ultras in about
    every 4th shop.  And lots of paper models of ultras as well.
    
    I have no idea how they are selling, but they certainly are on display.
    
    

    >every 4th shop.  And lots of paper models of ultras as well.
    >
    >I have no idea how they are selling, but they certainly are on display.
    
    As with everything else, price is key. Are the paper models
    significantly less expensive than the "hardbodies"? If so, and if the
    performance is reasonable, even I (long-time Mac user) might be
    interested.
    

  But can you use them in "The paperless office"?  And are they
  "worth the paper they're printed on"?

                                   Atlant

    Pete,
    
    Don't know how consumer-oriented business is over there, but in the
    U.S. you can return most electronic gadgets for a full refund with
    little or no reason.  Suggest to your friend that he purchase a Hinote
    and try it.
    
    Mark

Re 3738.48 (and earlier):

I won't tell him to go to Hong Kong; I'll tell him to send *me* to HK to
get one for him ... chances are about the same that he'll do it. :-)

> Don't know how consumer-oriented business is over there, but in the
> U.S. you can return most electronic gadgets for a full refund with
> little or no reason.  Suggest to your friend that he purchase a Hinote
> and try it.

Things are different in France.  "You buy it, you bought it" (Latin:
"caveat emptor") is the rule here.

___Pete

    When I was in HK two months ago, a shop in Causeway Bay displayed a
    faked NiNote made by paper with actual size. Maybe you can ask your
    French dealer to do something similar.
    

    Pete,
    
    Ask around, surely someone must have an Ultra that they use somewhere
    in Valbonne?

    You could buy one with your employee discount, or find someone who
    already has.  Valbonne is a big facility and surely someone in the
    building has, since it is so easy and inexpensive, bought one through
    the employee purchase program, right!
    
      

    I did try one of the paper ones.  It is really light!!!!  I think the
    batteries have lasted for about 600 hours so far, at least the 
    screen is as bright as it was when I got it.  And best of all I haven't
    had one GPF yet!!!!
    
    /j

    I'll bet you haven't had any problem with PCMCIA (Paper Computer Makes
    Customers Inquire Anxiously) cards either.
    
    				Steve

    One customer did call in though asking if the computers
    could be done up in newspaper as "this would give him something
    to read during a particularly long compile"

Harvard Coop has HiNotes (but I didn't see an Ultra there yet).

Not that this helps someone in Nice.

/john

I did try around the Valbonne site, and came up with several names, but so
far most of those people are working offsite most of the time.  As am I
lately.  Did get one local offer -- at someone's home.  That makes it only
an 80km drive for my friend to see the thing.

Still, I appreciate all the suggestions, especially the one about the
battery-friendly paper computer.  "No rabbits were tested to make this
paper computer."  And it works equally well on any voltage and frequency.
What a concept!  Plus it gets fewer floating point errors than an original
Pentium.

___Pete

    Q. How do you write off a paper computer?
    A. Post it.

    re: -1
    but aren't Post-It's disallowed?
    
    ;^)

    groupware for paper computers: Post-It-Notes