Conference 7.286::digital

    Anything offical on this that you can pass along?
    
    Thanks
    Jt
    

    Subject: Travel Charge Card Payment Program Supplier
    
        From  JOYCE FLINN, @MSO
    
    First Bank Visa has been selected as the supplier for Digital's 
    Travel Charge Card Payment Program in the United States.  
    Effective January 1, 1994, the Visa charge card will be used as 
    the travel payment tool for air, car, hotel, meals and other 
    applicable business expenses.  
    
    First Bank Visa cards will replace Diner's Club and 
    American Express cards.  The contracts with Diner's Club 
    and American Express will expire December 31, 1993.  Continue to 
    use your current American Express or Diner's Club card 
    for business travel expenses through December 31, 1993.  On 
    January 1, 1994, use the First Bank Visa card for travel related 
    expenses.   
    
    First Bank Corporate Payment Systems, headquartered in 
    Minneapolis, Minnesota, is the largest Visa Corporate Card issuer 
    in the world. By combining balance sheet strength with Visa, the 
    most powerful payment instrument in the world, First Bank has the 
    professional expertise and record of achievement necessary to 
    provide "best-in-class", cost-effective, worldwide travel payment 
    processes and tools to the company.   
    
    This new program will provide significant cost reduction 
    opportunities in the form of revenue sharing.  Additionally, the 
    management information collected will reflect actual spending 
    detail, thus enabling Digital to more effectively negotiate with 
    airlines, hotels, car rental companies and other travel service 
    providers.  The First Bank Visa Corporate Card incorporates an 
    inclusive insurance benefit for rental car coverage which may 
    provide the opportunity for lower car rental rates.  Visa's 
    worldwide acceptability will help to minimize the need for cash 
    advances for out of pocket expenses.  
    
    First Bank Visa cards will be issued in December.  You will 
    receive further information from Corporate Travel regarding the 
    new travel charge card distribution process and the features of 
    the new program in a follow up communication.
    
    This message was delivered to you utilizing the Readers Choice delivery 
    services.  You received this message because you are part of the U.S. 
    Territory.  If you have questions regarding this message, please
    contact the author of the memo.
    

    	There must be some pretty good whelln' dealn' going on as I just
    turned in my ATT calling card for an MCI....bring back "Central
    Billing":-)
    
    Rick

    This is a joke..... the only good thing about AmEx is that you never
    got charged for interest, so that when Digital took its sweet time
    paying you back, you could delay paying AmEx. I don't think Visa is
    going to be as cooperative in that regard. Since I am on the road most
    every week, the amount I'm floating Digital is generally around $5K.
    Alot of the time, I get the AmEx bill loads before the funds are
    "given" to me by Digital. Will Digital now pick up the finance charge
    when the new Visa bill is late because they haven't paid me yet? I
    don't think so.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    re: .4 and VISA interest ...
    
    I don't see any major difference here. Most credit cards have some sort
    of "grace" period that allows you to pay off the balance in full without
    incurring finance charges. AMEX would let you slide a little, but not
    a whole lot. If nothing else, it becomes yet another incentive to get
    expenses in on time.
    
    But I see another possible issue: Credit Bureau reporting.  AMEX did
    not normally report people's credit usage to any credit agencies that
    I am aware of, but all VISA and MC banks turn in regular reports. So
    does use and abuse of your corporate credit card now affect your
    personal credit history?  Inquiring minds want to know ...
    
    Geoff

    re: .5 - It also provides a reason for Digital to NOT become more
    efficient at reimbursing those of us racking up the bills since there
    is no pressure to pay the bill in full. It's also easy to anticipate a
    perception that the average Joe/Josephine can easily cover the monthly 
    minimum, so why worry? I remain concerned on who pays the interest if
    late reimbursements force minimum payments.

    Do I have to accept this card to travel on company business? 
    Can I use my own card (VISA) instead?
    
    Central Billing:-)
    
    Rick

Re: .5

AMEX has been reporting to credit bureaus for several years now.

Re: .7

No, you don't.  I travel a fair amount and don't have a corporate credit
card.  Since I don't keep a revolving balance this isn't a problem for me
(and I get advances before trips), but for others it might make sense to
have the corporate card.  Just realize that it is really a personal card
that Digital pays the fees for - you're still personally on the hook for
all charges.

				Steve

    Actually Steve, Corporate has been trying to strongly urge *everyone*
    use the corporate card for *every* transaction, business realted of
    course.  Corporate wants to use the information gathered to negotiated 
    better rates with companies that we use more often.
    
    Jt

                    <<< Note 2788.6 by SWAM1::MORRISON_DA >>>
              -< Possible disincentive to prompt reimbursements? >-

    re: .5 - It also provides a reason for Digital to NOT become more
    efficient at reimbursing those of us racking up the bills since there
    is no pressure to pay the bill in full. It's also easy to anticipate a
    perception that the average Joe/Josephine can easily cover the monthly 
    minimum, so why worry? I remain concerned on who pays the interest if
    late reimbursements force minimum payments.

	Re: .6

	Not true. This is not a revolving credit card. It is just like your
AMEX corporate card in which all your charges must be paid in full in the
month following the billing period. This is a VISA Corporate CHARGE card,
not a CREDIT card. There's a big difference. No one is making any money
off of interest and float. Other than a VISA logo on the card instead of
the AMEX logo, it shouldn't be any different to you, the card user.

Carl
(Corporate Travel I.S.) 

Re: .9

If so, then they should find a way that I can apply for one without it
appearing as an open line of credit on my credit report.

				Steve

          
    I'm comforted to hear that the new card is not a revolving
    charge card and has payment requirements similar to an AMEX
    card.
    
    AMEX doesn't start hounding you until 45 days after your
    statement closing date and only adds a delinquency charge
    if you haven't paid after 60 days.  A standard VISA card
    only has a 25 day grace period.  If you don't pay the minimum
    due within that time, you are levied a late fee of $10-20.00.
    With AMEX, there is only a late fee (delinquency charge)
    if you don't pay for 60 days.  I believe that fee is 2% of
    the 60-day outstanding balance.
    
    What is the grace period of the VISA card we'll be using?
    And what is the penalty for not paying within that period?
    
    The issue around whether or not you are charged interest 
    on overdue balances is important.  Traditional VISA
    cards have a provision whereby if you have any balance not
    fully paid by the due date, all charges in the next month
    are charged interest from the date of the transaction with
    no grace period.  In the worst case, consider the following:
    
    	April 30 balance due May 25    2000.00
    	No payments made by  May 25	  0.00
     					------
    	Balance remaining 	       2000.00
    
    	Large purchase made on May 5   2500.00
    
    	May 30 balance		       4500.00
    
    	Late fee-no payment by May 25	 15.00
    
      	Interest charge on 2000@12%      20.00
    
    	Prorated interest on 2500.00     21.00
    	for the 25 days (5/5-5/30)
    
        New balance due by June 25     4556.00
    	
    	Payment made on June 20	       4556.00
    
    With AMEX, there would be no late fee or interest, so you'd save the
    $ 56.00 in fees and interest.  Do this a few times a year and it starts
    to cost you a few bucks.     
    
    
    
    
    
    
     

    IMHO,  GET THE CORPORATE CARD!
    
    I recently had a VERY difficult time getting a mortgage because of the 
    balance on my AMEX Card which I only use for business.  I had to
    provide two years of expense records to prove that these trips all over
    the U.S. were not for me and that Digital was reimbursing me.  Even
    with these records they still included a portion of my AMEX balance in
    the calculation of my eligibility.  Silly bank refused to believe that
    I would float a multi-billion dollar company a loan of several thousand
    dollars each month.
    
    Also another reason to avoid car plan C.
    
    
    	John Greble

    Re: the "silly" bank
    
    As your banker knows quite well, the only genuine corporate charge card
    is one with a billing address to the company's accounts payable.
    Furthermore, how long does this float loan have to extend before the
    I.R.S. considers it a below-market or demand loan, where the would-be
    interest has to be reported as income.  Just thinking....a couple
    thousand people, a couple thousand dollars, a couple 30 days....
    
    

re: .12 and grace periods

Obviously, there are more formal communications coming which will detail the
new card agreement but from a document I have in front of me it says, "there
is a $10.00 late payment fee if payment is not received within 30 days. A
delinquency fee of 2.5% is applied to an account that is 60 days past due...
A First Bank Visa Corporate Card will be suspended at 60 days if a payment has
not been received". 

    
    
        Seems like only a few months ago many of us were "persuaded" 
        to sign up for the Diners' Club card for company purposes.  
        In fact I just got reimbursed by Digital for the $5 new-member 
        fee.  And now we're switching to another company card, presumably 
        with another fee?
    
        Hmmmmm
        Peter

    re: .10 - Digital OFTEN makes money off of float where the individual
    either has to 1.) take money out of interest bearing checking, etc. to
    pay the AMEX card given a VERY slow reimbursement process - possibly
    due to the many steps between secretaries & / or managers sitting in
    different sites, slow mail, etc. - it all adds up to slow payment that
    DOES reflect in the individuals credit report - not the company's. More
    and more folks are ending up sitting in geographically different
    locations from the administrative staff they depend on and will
    increase this drag on timely reimbursement. Travel letter was a much
    better approach. I have had to spend several weeks at a time depending
    on using my corporate card and the slow did not show up favorably when
    trying to move in process and applying for a new mortgage - but who
    cares if DEC's convienence is an liability - or worse - for their
    employees? A charge card that sends the bill to the corporation is not
    unheard of and would be appreciated by many.

Re: .17

In your earlier note, I understood you to say that you were worrying about
Digital holding up reimbursements because the VISA card would allow you to
make minimum monthly payments. And I simply pointed out in .10 that Digital 
would not be holding up reimbursements to float cash because monthly minimum 
payments aren't part of this program. Surely any business can make money 
(float) by holding up payments on anything from inventory to payroll checks. 
How and when Digital pays it's debts is an independent issue from which 
credit card you use. That was my point.
 
Your reply in .17 refers to the reimbursement process in general, not the 
credit card process specifically. The reimbursement process is the same whether 
you have a VISA card, AMEX card or a charge card from McDonalds. If 
reimbursements are slow it's not because you have a VISA card instead of a 
AMEX card, it's the general process. The reimbursement process is debated 
elsewhere in this conference so I'll refrain from re-opening that can of worms.

Most delays individules have in getting reimbersments for expences is the 
indiivedles own problem in procrastenating in submiting expenses.
I work in a remote office in the upper-mid west. when I get my expenses 
in the mail from my remote office by tusday to office wiht the admiitration
assestent the money is depostited in my checking account by the nest
wednesday. which ain't bad.

SO QUIT PROCRASTENTING AND BELLY ACKING.

STEVE

    I disagree... My wife did some artwork for DEC awhile ago (many years),
    and it took 3 months for her to get paid for it - it seems, that in
    any and all business transactions, DEC takes 3 months to pay up! This
    was confirmed by talking to many of the local service suppliers.
    
    While I have experienced sporadic occurences of 'rapid payment' - by
    and large the delays have outnumbered the rapid payments.
    
    Don't know about you, but I'm tired of floating DEC 0% loans -
    therefore, I insist on up-front cash advances for any and all 
    travel (over 2 days).  No $$, no travel.  If the customer buys
    HP, so be it.
    
    Penny wise, $$$$ foolish, the Digital way.... 
    
    Ds.

    In these days of controlling travel costs, I often must purchase
    tickets on my corporate travel card as much as 2 months before the
    actual travel in order to lock in lower airfares.  To the best of my
    knowledge, I cannot ask Digital to reimburse me for this until I've
    actually taken the trip.  Please let me know if I'm mistaken!
    
    As a result, there is a float that is in no way related to
    procrastination on turning in expense vouchers nor to delay in
    processing expense vouchers (I find that these are processed
    delightfully quickly, by the way!)
    
    Leslie

	... haven't had a problem. Granted, my usual situation is to only
be a week ahead of the actual travel, not months!  And I used to put the
agency invoice in the expense voucher, not the ticket coupon and never had
an issue, either. Letely, I've pulled the coupon off, and travelled
without it too, no problems to date.

	Aren't the tickets non-refundable purchased that far in advance?
It shouldn't matter that you get paid well before the planned travel, the
ticket can be used on another trip, even by someone else, right. That's
the CC manager's job, to my way of thinking.

	Even if they are refundable, and the trip's cancelled, have the
airline issue you a credit on the card, and you'll be $$ ahead on the next
ticket! :>) Wonder what AMEX or VISA would do with a $600-800 credit
showing up on a zero-balance account??

	My 2 cents worth.

Re: .21

Leslie,

Do what I do.  Refuse to carry a corporate charge card.  Then the airline
tickets get paid for directly by Digital and not charged to what is really
a personal charge card.   And since you ARE a CC manager, you should push
this foolishness back up the management chain; maybe someone will listen
to you.  (Yeah, right...)

This doesn't eliminate the problem - I had to use my personal card to
charge a room deposit two months in advance (which was applied immediately);
I can't get reimbursed until I return, but $125 is better than $400+ for
airline tickets.

Digital is the only company I know of which forces its employees to float
it loans for its business purposes.  Other companies use real corporate
charge cards - if an employee abuses the card, it's treated the same as
any other theft.

					Steve

    When I worked the Field in Kalamazoo, Michigan (Personnel in
    Novi/Detroit area) I turned my expenses in regularly.  I got a call
    from Corp Travelletter, we have checks you have cashed for the last 
    12 weeks, where are your expense vouchers.  I did not know, so I
    checked and Had my copies and the date of the filing.  I told the Corp
    person that.  She checked, and the local secretary held the vouchers
    for 1-2 weeks and then the Unit manager held them 2-3 weeks, and they
    went on to Novi and sat in someones basket as they were on vacation for
    a month.  
    
    Travelletter department was upset, but It was not my fault.  I would
    have been up the creek if I had been on a credit card.
    
    Re corporate billing, I have carried an international air travel card,
    and Avis and National cards, that went to corporate billing, I did not
    have to pay the bills, just make the proper paperwork.  
    
    IF IT WORKS FOR OTHER FIRMS, WHY NOT DIGITAL?
    
    Dave
    
    

>    Re corporate billing, I have carried an international air travel card,
>    and Avis and National cards, that went to corporate billing, I did not
>    have to pay the bills, just make the proper paperwork.  
>    
>    IF IT WORKS FOR OTHER FIRMS, WHY NOT DIGITAL?

We used to do it.

Long, long ago (1976-1980) I had a corporate-provided Air Travel card (a
'red' one, for domestic. Overseas travel was a 'green' one). It was
replaced, eventually, with DC and/or AMEX.

My gut feeling is that Digitals' 'exposure' to a theiving employee is
less with the current card scheme than with a 'corporate' charge card.

Lee

    A followup to my previous note -- I had superstitiously felt that
    the receipt piece of my airline ticket must not be detached prior to
    completing travel.  This seems to be an incorrect notion on my part.
    This means I can expense the trip the second I receive the tickets
    (which may still be after a credit card bill has come due - sigh!)
    
    If I don't take the trip, I of course must reimburse Digital!
    
    Interestingly,  when one of our secretaries checked this out for me
    with Petty Cash, the response was "Why does she get her tickets so far
    in advance?"  I have a feeling that the Petty Cash processes are
    assuming that we are not getting super-cheap, penalty-laden fares...???
    (Or at least the person spoken with was.)
    
    Regards,
    Leslie
    

    Well, I don't incur nearly as much business expense on my AMEX as most
    of the people in this note, but I like being able to use the card as a
    personal card as well as a company card. That would probably not be
    possible with a "true" company card. Then I would have to carry the
    company card and my own personal card. My wallet is already overflowing
    with too many cards as it is. However, I know some people would much
    prefer to keep their business expenses totally separate from their
    personal expenses.

    You can also blame slow Digital reimbursement when you have personal
    expenses on the card that are overdue. Oh, not that -I- would ever do
    that, of course, but *some*body might...!

I'd like to point out that in SHR, petty cash, on average
deposits the correct amount to my account within
24 hours of receipt of a signed expense statement.

No complaints here.

Gim

    .28
    
    The whole company doesn't have a petty cash setup like you do in SHR.

    Ref .28  I am impressed how SHR processes the payment once it gets
    to them, within 24 hours, as a field person whom travels alot, I
    have no complaints there, having a Boss in Marlboro, and being in the
    field my longest wait is for the mail to get to Marlboro, once it
    gets there within 48-72 hours the cash is in the DCU account.
    
    I still like Traveletter better, I do not like to float my cash.
    I am not sure what Visa Cards will do, I think the airline,and
    rental cars should be central billed. I like the red/green cards,
    but the abuse was rampant.
    
    

    
    I've been submitting my expenses promptly the following Monday and I
    always see the deposit go into my account within two weeks.  Floating
    Digital money has not been a problem for me - yet - My hat goes off to
    my boss who clearly does her paperwork as promptly as I.
    
    My advice to those concerned about the time it takes to process your
    expenses is to make sure the problem is not with you, and if it is with
    your boss, simply plead your case to him/her.  I also would not
    complain if the problem involves < $50 or so.  How many nights have you
    had a good meal on the road when you would have had tuna casarole at
    home?
    
    I never had Travelletter until I came to Digital.  At other companies the
    people who processed my expenses were down the hall from me and took
    as long to process them as Digital does now.
    
    JMHO
    
    -Ed
    

re:

>                       <<< Note 2788.26 by TLE::KLEIN >>>
>           -< Suggestion to turn in air receipt before travel works >-
>
>    A followup to my previous note -- I had superstitiously felt that
>    the receipt piece of my airline ticket must not be detached prior to
>    completing travel.  This seems to be an incorrect notion on my part.
>    
>    ...

One issue, I recently had to change out a leg of a round trip ticket and 
to get a refund, the travel agent REQUIRED the ticket and the passenger
reciept.  She said without this, the best I could get was a voucher for another
flight and not a complete refund.

I don't know if this is a real requirement or not, but at least
one travel agent believes it to be true!

/mike (one digit midget...  and shrinking...)

    Read the fine print on the back of the ticket folks.  It plainly says
    that you _must_ keep the passenger receipt attached to be legit.  Most
    airlines don't strictly enforce that rule, but it could happen.

    I've just read, cover to cover, the fine print on an IATA Passenger
    Ticket and Baggage Check.
    
    Sorry .33 but there is nothing there about the handling of the
    passenger coupon/receipt.  So if you need to, I'd reckon you can detach
    it whenever you want.
    
    WRT several in the string I'm surprised at the implication of a lot of
    tickets being bought on credit/charge cards.  Even when I had less than
    2 hours notice of international air travel, AMEX where able to make the
    reservation and have the ticket ready to collect at the terminal desk. 
    This way it got cross-charged to our CC without doing any damage to my
    personal finances.  The only tickets we buy are for local travel by
    train/bus.  Long distance train tickets we get through AMEX too.
    
    We have to attach the stubs of our tickets to our expenses claims,
    that's mainly to prove that we've been out of the country and incurred
    overseas expenses.
    
    The only nasty bit is that here they've just extended the time on the
    message "the money will be in your account in not more than 15 days" to
    read "...not more than 3 weeks...".  So Digital's cash-flow benefit is
    my bank charge.  I suspect it may change if we start claiming for bank
    charges on expenses.

    
    	Having worked with an international group I certainly
    	understand about purchasing tickets well in advance for
    	cost savings. We still never use the non-refundable/
    	non-transferable cause you know darn well the itinerary
    	will change at least 6 times.
    
    	Anyway, one of my managers used to purchase the tickets
    	way in advance and create an expense voucher right then.
    	He'd get it signed in advance and I'd hold it till the
    	day he left - then process it. He'd have his money waiting
    	when he returned, or at least a major portion of his cash
    	advance refunded.

    I have a question on the implementation of the switch to the VISA card.
    It says in the notice that the contract between Digital and AmEx will
    expire on Dec. 31. Does this mean the cards will all be cancelled as of
    Dec. 31? What if I'm travelling up until Dec. 31 and using the AmEx
    card? I won't get the bill until sometime in Jan. or later. Is my
    account with AmEx still open?
    
    I ask this because I have to transfer my AmEx Membership Miles over to
    a personal AmEx card and I want to be sure the last payment gets
    accrued to my corp. account before doing the transfer. If I don't
    transfer the miles before the card is cancelled, I lose them all.
    
    Can anyone shed some light or point me to someone who can?
    
    Thanks
    Debbie
    

    Re: .36-
    
    	Look for a mail explaining the details. As I understand it, travel
    charges for December bookings will be to your current card. Payment
    date of these charges should not matter. You just cannot incur charges 
    on the current card after Dec. 31.
    
    	I should note that my interpretation is based upon the information
    I received as a DC card user. The AMEX policies are being sent
    separately to employees holding these cards according to the email.
    
    Phil

    re .21
    
    I've had no problem hitting Digital with the expense the moment it
    shows on my AMEX bill - whether or not I've gotten the tickets or taken
    the tri yet.  Nobody in my management or finance has said a word about
    it.  Where did you get the idea that it was otherwise?
    
    /Butch

According to a memo we recieved about activating the new VISA cards, we have 
to give our SSN to someone over the phone.  Another case of trying to use the 
SSN for identification.....

Dave

Re:<<< Note 2788.39 by OASS::STDBKR::Burden_d "Synchromesh gearboxes are for wimps" >>>

>According to a memo we recieved about activating the new VISA cards, we have 
>to give our SSN to someone over the phone.  Another case of trying to use the 
>SSN for identification.....

See topic 2815 in this conference for discussion on this.

-  David

    I just recieved my new AMEX card last week, because the one I currently
    have is about to expire.  When am I supposed to get the VISA and what
    do I do with this new AMEX card?
    
    Larry

    I received an unsolicited MORE Visa card last week and destroyed it. 
    I hope this wasn't the corporate visa card -- there was nothing
    identifying it as a Digital visa card.  Did I screw up, or have I just
    not received my Digital card yet?

    re -.1
    
    My point of view, is if you destroy an unsolicited card, you haven't
    screwed up...

    I just want to make sure this unsolicited card wasn't my corporate Visa
    card.  Is the corporate visa card from MORE?

    I received mine today. It is from First Bank, and lists Digital on
    the card. The envelope does not identify the sender (except for the
    p.o. box return address visible through a window).

    Thank you

    Whew...! I had just read a note that said that Membership Miles members
    would lose all of their miles when the card was cancelled. I also have
    my personal AMEX card linked into my MM account. AMEX said that when
    the agreement DOES terminate, I retain all my miles because my personal
    card is the 'primary' card on the account. I spoke to the Digital
    Corporate Account rep at AMEX, and he said it is up to Digital as to
    when the cancel the agreement. I DID ask what happened to those with
    only one AMEX card: YOU WILL LOSE THE MILES THE SECOND IT'S CANCELLED
    you MUST transfer them NOW or you will be S.O.L.  
    
    Randy

    On the reimbursement issue, I hope the Corporate Finance person who
    wrote in this topic a few notes back is reading:
    
    Digital Orangebook policy calls for 'timely reimbursement' of expenses
    incurred on business travel. My particular PSC has been experiencing
    great difficulty. Because of very tight scrutiny and literal
    interpretation of the Expense Guidelines, we have had severe problems.
    
    We are all remotely located from our management. When guidelines, or
    perceived guidelines, are exceeded, reports get sent back for
    re-working. Because we travel so much, we spend a great deal of money.
    If the reports are sent back while we're on the road, turnaround of
    just getting the report back to management can be 2 weeks, not counting
    them sending it to Colorado Springs.
    
    As a result, I had $1400 held up for being $1.06 over a meal limit. One
    other group member is out OVER $9500 for a total of $20 worth of
    mistakes. Another is out $5000 for less than $15 worth of errors, and
    one of them was a secretarial interpretation of the guidelines which
    was in error. 
    
    That ain't peanuts folks. Stated Digital policy says we CANNOT charge
    Digital for the interest. I agree that if you are lazy and batch your
    reports, then you can't bitch. But minor mistakes, most unintentional,
    causing tens of thousands worth of float, is simply wrong.
    
    I have no problem with expense controls, but there is a great amount of
    time required to work, re-work, re-submit, and research limits
    (although I understand a new VTX system is available to help).
    
    I would be satisfied if Digital management could simply deduct the
    small violations, re-add the sheet, and submit it so we would not float
    thousands of dollars and risk our credit! We are out there trying to
    close business which helps us all, can SOMETHING be done to make life
    on the road less of a financial risk?

    You already know the answer.  Why ask?

    Got my card/packet in the mail today... I read all the materials. 
    (I suggest everyone do so; there is some 'interesting' fine print);
    
    I want to do my part to help Digital's profitability, but this plan
    bothers me; Digital gets all the benefits and I take all the risks.
    
    
    From: Agreement Between Corporate Cardholder and First Bank
    
    "You are liable to First Bank for full payment of all Charges
    authorized by you, independant of any agreement or program for
    reimbursement that may exist between you and your Employer."
    
    "First Bank can revoke your right to use the Corporate Card at any
    time. First Bank can do this with or without cause and without giving
    you notice."
    
    "Information concerning your credit history with First Bank may be
    furnished to consumer reporting agencies or others who may propoerly
    receive that information."
    
    
    From: Questions and Answer for the Corporate Travel Charge Card...
    
    "First Bank does not report the activity on your corporate charge card
    to any credit bureaus. However, [...] delinquency will be reported." 
    
    "A delinquuency fee of 2.5% is applied to an account that is 60 days
    past due and is the responsibility of the individual cardholder. Your
    [...] card will be suspended at 60 days if payment in full has not been
    received."
    
    "Q. Will Digital reimburse me for any delinquency fees?   A. No."
    
    
    And then there are all the Ts&Cs associated with the various insurance
    coverages which are also 'interesting' reading...
    
    I'm going to have to think about whether I'm willing to enter into a
    financial "Agreement" with First Bank on these terms because Digital
    wants me to... 

    So don't use it?
    
    I'm still trying to get rid of a $740 charge levied against my AMEX
    for a trip I never took. That's beans compared to any of the
    (potential) charges I've seen people worrying about.

    I received mine in the mail.  You have to phone in to activate the
    card.  When you do you are asked to give (via the keypad on the phone)
    the following information:
    
    		Your account number
    		Your ZIP code
    		Your home phone number
    		The last 4 digits of your Social Security Number
    
    I am not sure if this is the exact order that I was asked to enter
    information.

    I got mine and phoned in the info.  
    
    I'm like a lot of you and don't want another card, but I wonder if they
    will require us to use them to get our airline tickets.  I had a h*ll
    of a run in with Cook's travel when I tried to use my personal AX card
    and not the corporate AX card.  All other expenses you can use any
    card you want, I guess.
    
    Ken

Just received in response to my request to withold SSN.
I did not refuse a VISA card!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

From:   POWDML::POWDML::MRGATE::"A1::CHARGECARD"
To:     @Distribution_List
CC:
Subj:   First Bank VISA Corporate Card                                     
    1

From:   NAME: CHARGECARD @MSO
        FUNC:
        TEL:                           <CHARGECARD AT A1 at POWDML at PKO
>
To:     See Below


     In January, the First Bank VISA Corporate Card replaced the current
     Diners Club and American Express Corporate Cards.  Our records
     indicate that you requested not to receive a corporate charge card.

     If you should need a corporate charge card in the future, please
     access VTX TRAVEL and complete an application for a First Bank VISA
     Corporate Charge Card.

     If you have any questions, please contact Corporate Travel at
     CHARGECARD @MSO or POWDML::CHARGECARD.

    I just wrote them back a moment ago myself.
    
    Amusing way to treat your customers: "Sorry, we can't figure out how to
    accomodate you, so we'll pretend you didn't ask us."

    Administrators !##&*@(*@*(&$

    I purchased a product (nothing to do with computers) that I felt was
    poorly designed.  It had this mounting screw and the one that was
    provided was too short, would not even pass through the hole in the
    assembly to screw into the appliance.  I wrote them a letter explaining
    the problem (I had since gone to Ace and bought a longer screw).  Their
    response was that I must of picked the wrong model (The only model that
    was in their catalog) and that they would be glad to help me select the
    correct model.  Obviously they had not read my letter after the first
    sentence.

    Go figure,

    Larry

Re: .55

It's not a case of someone not willing to find a way to accomodate you. The fact
is that no bank in the world is going to grant you thousands of dollars worth
of credit without supplying them with a social security number. They have to
check your credit history. It's understandable you don't want them to have your 
social security number but you can't expect them to find a way to accomodate
you and give you a credit line without it. If you find a financial institution 
that will do that, send them my way.

>It's not a case of someone not willing to find a way to accomodate you. The fact
>is that no bank in the world is going to grant you thousands of dollars worth
>of credit without supplying them with a social security number. 

Are you saying that your credit cannot be checked without using your social
security number?  I find that hard to believe.

al

    
    I agree with -1.  I got turned down for credit after the agency
    mistakenly combined my father's and my credit reports, and our social
    security numbers ared definitely different.  It seemed that no attempt 
    was made to verify the number, or they would have found out that we
    were 2 separate people.

Amex didn't need it.

Bob

    re: .57
    
    Yes, the bank will and should supply a corporate charge card without
    the aid of a credit check.  This is a CORPORATE card, not a standard
    card.  The CORPORATE card application says that Digital will absorb the
    risk (which means that Digital will not stick the bank with the bill,
    but will, instead, make sure that YOU get stuck with it!).
    
    I filed my application only a few months back, and I noted that the
    application was geared so that someone with lousy credit would still
    get the card.  That's the way a true CORPORATE card should operate.
    
    -- Russ

    Re .57:
    
    AT&T Universal Card will grant a credit line without a Social Security
    Account Number, and they won't keep it in your records if you ask them
    not to.  They'll also let you select a password other than your
    mother's maiden name.
    
    The Social Security Account Number is not needed to retrieve a credit
    report.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To get PGP, FTP /pub/unix/security/crypt/pgp23A.zip from ftp.funet.fi.
For FTP access, mail "help" message to DECWRL::FTPmail or open Upsar::Gateways.

    
    What are MEmbership miles?
    
    ???

    Re: .57   My most recent success is the AT&T Universal Card. No annual
     fee for life, either.
    
    More re .55  I'm surprised to report that I got a prompt answer today
    from the mysterious people behind CHARGECARD @MSO. (They don't sign
    their communications, you see.)
    
    I asked in my response to have them confirm whether my SSN was given
    out, which was what I asked originally. This was confirmed and was
    stated as the reason why I could not have the card. "The use of a
    social security number as a means of identification is the only way to
    activate your Visa card. [The one I am not getting, that is.] Visa
    [sic] requires this information to minimize their losses due to
    fraudulent activities. Visa has signed a confidentiality agreement to
    protect our employees."
    
    Jose Ramirez, Employee Relations Manager, and "Legal" were mentioned as
    working with the mysterious CHARGECARD @MSO to obtain an exemption to
    PP&P that "would allow Digital to provide Social Security Numbers to
    Visa [sic]."                                                

    	I contacted CHARGECARD @MSO to inquire about reimbursement because
    I was told by my cost center manager that unless you charge on the
    card, you wouldn't be re-imbursed. This was confirmed with the
    following message. I understand people's reluctance to give out the
    social security number, but it looks like if you travel, you'll be
    paying for it since Digital won't reimburse you.
         
         If you are a frequent traveler, defined as travel more than 
         two times a year, then you must use the corporate charge card 
         for air, hotel and rental car expenses or you will not be 
         reimbursed.  This is a new policy and will appear in 
         Personnel Policies and Procedures 5.11 on January 10, 1994.

    
    Please, no scare tactics that "you won't be reimbursed".  I, too, will
    be reimbursed the same way as always.  Another member of my group (20
    years with Digital) also declined the card and will be doing business
    as usual.
    
    The reason charge card companies originally got your SS# was because
    you could deduct the interest on your taxes (no more).  Then it 
    became a handy 'unique' identifier and the lemmings got used to handing
    it over.
    
    (A recent right-to-privacy issue in Texas...the Postal Service will no
    longer sell forwarding information for $3 if the information is tagged
    "abused spouse".  Ain't that nice?)
    
    Many people don't give out their SS#s for various reasons.  Many more
    shouldn't.  We still get charge cards, utilities, etc., and so-forth.
    How do you think foreigners visiting the US get utilities, phone cards,
    credit cards, etc.?  Next time someone asks for your SS#, say
    
    			"I'm Canadian, sorry". 
    
    I've had *no* problems...and no stupid corporate card.

	For the last 15 years (here and at an other company) I've had
	a simple policy. If the company wants me to travel they will either
	provide the tickets and a credit card where they get the bill or
	they will give me an advance to cover everything. I've never had
	a problem. If the company wants me to lend them the money or borrow
	it (use a credit card) then they don't really want me to go. I doubt
	that refusal to lend the company money can be used to fire someone.

			Alfred

You obviously don't work in the field.

"Your job is to do XXXX".
"XXXX is in <another state> this week"
"Corporate policy is that travel is done this way (credit cards, etc.)"
"Refusal to perform assigned job duties (ie travel) is insubordination and
grounds for termination."

This may sound heavy-handed, but it is almost direct quotes.  Some folks
are not given choices.

    I really wish I could relate to some of the strong opinions for not
    giving out Social Security Numbers. Having spent a number of years as a
    public servant whose salary was published in the local paper, I find it
    hard tooget excited about my SSN being provided in a selected fashion.
    Everybody else seems to have it, why should I care that a bank with a
    credit card drawn in my name has it?
    
    Question: In helping ensure that the right person activates a credit
    card issued to you, what alternatives are there (within the limits of
    technology and resonable cost)? 

Updated Corporate Travel Charge - 1/10/94 from Orangebook/VTX  

         NO Corporate Card use - NO reimbursement!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
   | Corporate Travel Charge Cards:

   | Company-issued Corporate cards must be used for business travel
   | arrangements (e.g., air, auto, hotel, meals, and business
   | meetings, etc.).  Only the approved Corporate cards will be
   | used to charge travel expenses for authorized business trips.
   | These charge cards are intended for use in connection with
   | business related expenses and not personal expenditures.

   | Digital will issue Corporate charge cards to frequent travelers
   | who anticipate incurring two business-related expenses a year.

   | Frequent travelers will be reimbursed ONLY for air, car, and
   | hotel expenses charged on the Digital corporate charge card.
   | Applications for Corporate cards can be obtained from your
   | Corporate Charge Card Coordinator - Access $VTX TRAVEL
   | Corporate Card.

   | Employees are responsible for making full payment to the charge
   | card suppliers (less any disputed charges) prior to the next
   | billing cycle.  Account delinquency may result in suspension or
   | cancellation of charging privileges.  Employees who have their
   | card canceled, suspended or revoked either by Digital or the
   | charge card company will not be eligible to obtain another
   | Corporate card
 
   | Cost center managers are responsible for retrieving Corporate
   | charge cards from employees who are terminating.  The cut-up
   | card should be returned to your Charge Card Coordinator with a
   | request to cancel the account.

    Re .70:
    
    > Question: In helping ensure that the right person activates a credit
    > card issued to you, what alternatives are there (within the limits of
    > technology and resonable cost)? 

    One commonly used method of ensuring the card was delivered to the
    intended address is to send a confirmation notice several days later. 
    Some cards aren't valid for several days, so they cannot be used by a
    thief in the interim.  Keeping short the period between arrival of new
    card and expiration of old card also reduces the exposure in case both
    card and confirmation are stolen -- the customer will still get in
    touch when the old card expires.
    
    One method that is not used but should be is to solicit a password on
    the application form (even if it is just mother's maiden name, although
    better passwords should be used).  Then the new card should not be
    activated until the customer calls up and provides the password --
    which a thief would not know because they would have only the card, not
    the application.
    
    Neither of these protects against fraudulent applications (e.g., a
    criminal filling out an application using somebody else's name but an
    address of their own choosing).  But then neither does asking for a
    Social Security Account Number.  This risk can be reduced by watching
    for multiple applications to the same address, by limiting credit
    extended to new addresses, and by monitoring initial purchases by new
    accounts for items attractive to the black market.  Applications also
    solicit information about other accounts -- these can be checked to see
    if they are at the same address, which would tend to indicate a real
    person with some history.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To get PGP, FTP /pub/unix/security/crypt/pgp23A.zip from ftp.funet.fi.
For FTP access, mail "help" message to DECWRL::FTPmail or open Upsar::Gateways.

According to the new policy (if I read it right) you won't get reimbursed for
air, car, or hotel charges unless they are charged to your credit card.

What happens if you just pay cash?  I've done this on occasion for hotel or
car rentals when the amount is small and I've had the cash anyway.  It beats
waiting for the credit card bill and then having to write another check (after
you've probably spent the reimbursement).

Larry

   re: .71, .73
   
   Not only do I sometimes pay cash for a motel, but what about food? 
   Didn't that policy say "meals" also?  Does this mean that we are
   forced to eat at establishments that take Visa?  Does this mean Micky
   D's is out for a quick bite?  
   
   If so, then "What a great way to save money!!!"  Only use restaurants
   that take plastic (pay a premium there).  
   
   Or if I fly in for sales effort.  "Well, people.  This is a critical
   meeting to close this $5 million deal, so only take 30 minutes for
   lunch."  "Sorry.  Digital says I must go to a restarant that takes
   plastic.  Wendy's is out.  See you in an hour or more."

    Oh, come now Steve... you know White Castle (and some Wendy's) now
    take plastic!
    
    
    
    Ratburgers charged to your plastic? Crazy, man!
    
    Lee

    re .70
    
    Great, that you see no problem in publishing your SS#.  Would you like
    to enter it here for us?  We've your fellow workers, but I'm willing to
    bet you won't trust us with it.  On the other hand, you'll pass it out
    freely to everyone at Visa and all credit agencies to do as they will.
    Do you know and trust all of these people?  If you won't put your SS#
    in this file, why do you trust us less than them?  They say they'll
    provide your complete credit file whenever/wherever necessary to
    whomever they deem needy.  You're not just giving them your SS#, you're
    publishing where you live, what credit cards you have, how much you
    owe, what cars you drive, etc.
    
    Many of us have good reason to keep it under wraps.  If you've ever
    been the victim of a stalker, a deranged and/or abusive ex-spouse, etc.
    you might not want to be that public.  Since everyone's intent on using
    the SS# for everything nowadays, it's a very convenient tool for
    finding you quick.
    
    I'm sure Salmon Rushdie, had he had an SS#, would have seen no
    problem...*before* the death sentence.  Afterwards, he appears to be
    keeping a low profile.  To each his own.  The right-to-privacy people
    respect your right to publish it, respect their's to not.

    
    One more thought...if you think your ss# and credit reports are
    harmless, rent Pacific Heights Michael Keaton and Melanie Griffith.
    Chilling.

    
>    I'm sure Salmon Rushdie, had he had an SS#, would have seen no
>    problem...*before* the death sentence.  Afterwards, he appears to be
>    keeping a low profile.  To each his own.  The right-to-privacy people
>    respect your right to publish it, respect their's to not.

	He has a national insurance number, which is the same as a SS#.

	Heather

    Good luck to you if you travel to Germany and stay in a regular hotel
    (not an international chain), and eat in regular restaurants.
    
    A lot of them will not accept plastic -- so you won't get re-imbursed
    without a battle.

>   | Corporate Travel Charge Cards:
>
>   | Company-issued Corporate cards must be used for business travel
>   | arrangements (e.g., air, auto, hotel, meals, and business
>   | meetings, etc.).  

Ok, no problem.  If you have a company-issued corporate card, it must be
used for business travel arrangements (and for no other purpose, I presume).

>     Only the approved Corporate cards will be
>   | used to charge travel expenses for authorized business trips.
>   | These charge cards are intended for use in connection with
>   | business related expenses and not personal expenditures.

In other words, use only the approved corporate card to charge travel 
expenses; don't use your own.  Well, I do not want to charge travel 
expenses on my personal charge card anyway so I see no problem with this.

>   | Digital will issue Corporate charge cards to frequent travelers
>   | who anticipate incurring two business-related expenses a year.

This has already been beaten to death in earlier replies.

>   | Frequent travelers will be reimbursed ONLY for air, car, and
>   | hotel expenses charged on the Digital corporate charge card.

Again, no problem.  Use the corporate card for ONLY air, car and hotel 
expenses (if you've got one).  

>   | Applications for Corporate cards can be obtained from your
>   | Corporate Charge Card Coordinator - Access $VTX TRAVEL
>   | Corporate Card.
  .
  .
  .

My point is, they have outlined the proper use of the card.  There is 
nothing, however, that I can read of this that says you will not be 
reimbursed if you do NOT use the card.  

-Andy

ps.  The next question is: Will Digital be issuing advances?

re: .82:

We read the English language differently.  You said:

> >   | Frequent travelers will be reimbursed ONLY for air, car, and
> >   | hotel expenses charged on the Digital corporate charge card.
>
> Again, no problem.  Use the corporate card for ONLY air, car and hotel 
> expenses (if you've got one).  

I read this to mean you will be reimbursed only if you charge the expense on
the corporate card.  No charge - no reimbursement.

To me it couldn't be clearer - if you don't use the card, you will not get
your money back.

John

>To me it couldn't be clearer - if you don't use the card, you will not get
>your money back.

It couldn't be clearer?  -You- just stated it clearer!  Unfortunately (or
fortunately) Digital hasn't.

As was said before, it is ambiguous enough to be open to interpretation.

-Andy

    It's not the way it _really_ works.
    
    As a frequent traveler (60-100K miles/yr (by air)), cash has been, and
    will likely always be acceptable to use. Yeah, I know what the verbiage
    says, but there has never been any problem getting reimbursed if you
    used cash. In fact, for meals under $25, you don't even need a receipt,
    so there is no record of the expenditure. If you can eat > $25 at
    McDonalds, White Castle, etc, it's likely you're booking two seats in
    coach just to travel :)
    
    In Europe, there are many restuarants that take AMEX, but no VISA or
    MC. I would not expect any resistance to reimbursement there either
    (But Boss, Herr Schimmerburger _insisted_ on the HoffBrau Haus!)
    
    

>In fact, for meals under $25, you don't even need a receipt,
>    so there is no record of the expenditure. If you can eat > $25 at

That depends on which organization your in.  Here in Dallas (RMC) receipts are
required for anything over $10.


Al

    

        Re: the last few

    My concern was stated a few replies back - the responsibility is on us
    to make sure we get the reimbursement.  And, of course this never
    happens, the expense police deem it necessary to bounce our voucher,
    we're still responsible for the bill.  Now we throw in all of the
    'quite ambiguous' replies from the last run of comments - I'm not
    feeling very well.

    I'm debating about contacting the fed's about the privacy issue -
    pending my manager's search results.  At the present, he is searching
    for the whiz-kid who came up with this idea to send out our SSN's.  Oh
    joy, I love working for Digital.

    Charlie

    p.s. - Do you think the people who came up with this fiasco read the
    Ethics in Business (or whatever else it was called) before implementing
    this policy?  

    I am working on an expense report today for 10 days in Switzerland.  I
    found lots of inexpensive places to eat that wouldn't have dreamed of
    taking plastic.  Many of my total-day food expenses came in at around
    half the allotted amount because I often picked up yogurt and crackers 
    in grocery stores, or a loaf of fresh bread at a bakery and some cheese 
    from the dairy store for a number of breakfasts and lunches.
    
    I certainly hope that cash will continue to be a useful alternative,
    especially in Europe where so much of the best food comes from little
    'hole in the wall' places.  
    
    At least VISA is much more widely accepted than AMEX -- to save DEC
    lots of money and stay in a much cheaper hotel than the others
    available to me, I had to use my personal VISA card and get reimbursed
    because they didn't take AMEX.  I was happy to stay in the less fancy
    place, but I didn't like charging $700 to my personal card.

Re .-1  Me too.  I like to stay at Residence Inn's when I travel and do my
own cooking.  Last trip my average meal cost was $7/day.  Of course, I guess
I could probably charge my groceries to the VISA card, since many supermarkets
in the U.S. take plastic now.

--Scott

  Thanks (last 2 replies) for raising the issue of people doing their own 
cooking while traveling. I like to do this too; not only does it save money,
but it's much better for my stomach (I don't handle restaurant food well), and
the time spent shopping and cooking is no more than I would spend waiting to
be served at an eatery. I certainly would not want to get into a situation 
where I could not spend cash in a grocery store while traveling for Digital and 
not get reimbursed for it. There are still a lot of food stores that do NOT 
take plastic.

    
    Did any one have their Corporate American Express card cancelled by
    Digital..?!? 
    
    To my surprise, after getting my card rejected, I found out that
    Digital had ended their credit card relationship with AMEX. Was there
    any notice of this event..!?!?
    
    

	... said January 15 was the Amex cut-off.

>                      <<< Note 2788.87 by RLTIME::COOK >>>
>            -< How much your trusted depends on where you live... >-
>
>
>>In fact, for meals under $25, you don't even need a receipt,
>>   so there is no record of the expenditure. If you can eat > $25 at
>
>That depends on which organization your in.  Here in Dallas (RMC) receipts are
>required for anything over $10.

Has your manager read the Orange Book ?? The official corporate policy 
(from VTX ORANGEBOOK) is:


 | Receipts - Description of Expense:

  | -   Original receipts for all individual actual expenses of
  |     $25.00 or more.  The receipt must identify the; name of the
  |     establishment where the expense was incurred, date of
  |     expense, actual amount incurred, type of expense and
  |     receipt of payment.


 | Meals:

  | Access $VTX TRAVEL for meal spending limits by city.  Employees
  | are responsible for keeping accurate meal expense records
  | including tips.  Receipts are required for any individual meal
  | over $25.00.  The receipt must identify the: name of the
  | establishment, where the expense was incurred, date of expense,
  | actual amount incurred, type of expense and receipt of payment.
  | Hotel room service prices are typically 50% more costly than
  | restaurant charges.  Use of room service should be minimized
  | whenever possible.

    	I am not sure we can or should all use the same rules when it comes
    to international travel. In France, because of tax rules, you are not
    allowed to claim more than about $2 per day without receipts. In
    practice, this sometimes restricts your choice of parking to somewhere
    that will give a receipt. Tips are not a problem because service is
    always included in the bill in France. The customer part of Visa card
    slips is *not* accepted as a receipt.
    
    	An American visiting France is swindling the company if he claims
    for tips. American waiters should realise that French visitors need a
    receipt for a tip.

    Remember the Orange Book is a "guideline", managers can and sometimes
    do require more receipts. When I was in Westfield, we had to include 
    the Mass Pike toll receipts from our trips to Maynard, in order to get 
    re-imbursement, even though they were less than $2 each way.

    Since I am not, and never have been, in France I don't expect any
    bill from the French Tax authorities. The situation I reported involved
    US citizens, living, working and driving in the USA. The US IRS does
    not require receipts for that small an amount, nor did other Digital
    US sites - the people in Maynard we were meeting with actually thought
    we were joking when we first mentioned this manager's edict. Believe
    me, it WAS a manager's whim.
    					Marie

A small question from a frequent credti card user in Europe, and abroad.

This AMeX -- Visa thing only is in the US I think, for so far the term
Corporate, because I and many others are still using the AMEX corporate card.

Could it be that that corporate thing only is for the US. I'm checking
the travel policies in VTX, but it looks like only the US is "hurt".

One of the things I saw, complaints, was that airmiles were not set. To get rid
of all this nonsense by changing cards I just use my own cards, eventhough
I have the AMEX corporate card.

it's not that much more expensive

Just to say my saying about this credit card thing.

Ciao,

Michiel

re: .96

>    Remember the Orange Book is a "guideline", managers can and sometimes
>    do require more receipts. 

I disgaree (that it's a "guideline"). These are corporate policies, 
which also state things such as hire/fire policies, policies for 
sexual harrassement,vacation time, sick time, etc... are you saying
that individual managers are free to interpret these policies based on
their own interpretations ?? One of the problems Digital has is the 
lack of consistently enforced standards across the corporation (ever 
tried to figure out why some offices reserve larger cubes for Sales 
Execs while others make them share a cube with someone else?).

These policies should be followed as written by everyone, and not 
subject to interpretation.

Arlan

    re: .100
    
    In the U.S., there is a brief statement at the beginning of the P&P
    that states that the P&P are guidelines and not a contract between
    Digital and the employee.
    
    Bob

RE: Managers whim

	I've dealt with that kinda crap in the past. It's not a
	pleasant scene to be in. You should have seen the look on
	the face of a manager when I told him that I was not going
	to supply reciepts for travel on the BART (SanFran rapid
	transit) that I took to save Digital parking money! And
	then the expression he gave me when he told me he wouldn't
	pay for a $35 meal and I tore up the reciept and told him
	that I'd "eat" the $10 and he could pay me $25. He was
	pissed but I stood my ground.

	It's this kind of pettieness that is sending this company
	down the crapper.

						mike

Re:<<< Note 2788.101 by ROWLET::AINSLEY "Less than 150 kts. is TOO slow!" >>>

>    In the U.S., there is a brief statement at the beginning of the P&P
>    that states that the P&P are guidelines and not a contract between
>    Digital and the employee.
    
For those not in the U.S., here's the actual wording:

         Digital policies are management guidelines for the
         implementation of Digital's Employee Relations philosophy.
         These policies are subject to change without notice as they
         reflect our values and changing business needs.  AS SUCH,
         DIGITAL'S PERSONNEL POLICIES ARE NOT CONTRACTS OR GUARANTEES
         OF ANY PARTICULAR KIND OF TREATMENT OR MANAGEMENT PROCESS.

-  David

    Re: .-1
    
    Which brings us full circle, back to the law which directs companies
    with access to private information to safeguard that information except
    in certain circumstances: IRS, etc.  Aside from the nonsense about
    receipts (get 'em Mike! hurrah!), I sent an official request for
    explanation to my personel person, she forwarded it to travel who then
    responded with some blather.  I've not been given permission to post,
    but I have a name to follow up the discussion.  Basically, the reply
    justified Digital's release of the SSN's because of contractural
    agreements.  This may fly for some people, but it won't for me (and it
    wouldn't in court).  I'll keep my information search updated here from
    time to time.
    
    Charlie
    
    ps - I just applied for a low-rate credit card - I haven't given them
    my SSN yet - we'll see what happens.

I received a call from Corporate Travel indicating that First Bank has agreed
remove my SSN from their database, and send a letter indicating that they
had done so.

So it can be worked out if you're persistant, and Digital is very much in the 
wrong for disclosing this information without written permission.   

Bob

    Bob,
    
    	Excellent.  By the way, I'm posting my update.  To the extent that
    I can determine, Digital did not violate any laws that I can find (what
    a shame).  But, you say, what about the Federal Privacy Act?  Well,
    that applies to *government* institutions, not private ones.  For
    example, if a bank offers you a credit card in return for your SSN, you
    have a decision to make quite similar to trading cash for a product. 
     There is no law preventing a company from asking for the SSN if they
    want it.
    
    	Now on the subject of the *ethics* of Digital releasing SSNs, I
    object to the intent.  Digital is establishing a company credit card in
    order to save money on company expenses.  Why my SSN?  So they can
    check my good credit?  If it is a company credit card, why check my
    credit?  Personally, I'll bet my credit is better than Digital's at the
    moment :-).
    
    Charlie

    There appears to be a limit on the VISA cards.  I attended a meeting
    last week with a sales rep.  The rep tried to charge a large expense
    ($2k), but it was declined.  The VISA company told him he only had $1k
    left on his limit.  He charged the 1K to the corporate VISA card, and
    the balance to his personal card.  Our secretary said that the limit is
    $7K.

    If there is a limit, it probably changes depending on the job you're
    in. Since I work in Asia Pacific Area, my average AmEx bills were $8k
    since plane tickets to the PacRim run about $5 each. Add in a few weeks
    of hotels and meals and you'd quickly exceed the $7K .-1 mentions.
    
    Debbie
    

    Surprise, surprise, surprise!  Guess who is starting to send me junk
    mail?  Why none other than First Bank, of course.  Now that they have
    all the info they need, I am deemed a worthy credit risk - another set
    of letters to throw away.  Why do I feel like Digital *sold* its
    employee mailing, I mean, directory to First Bank?
    
    chg

>	Not only do all those companies pay for his heat via "bulk mail"
>	postage but also the US postal service has to drive up there to
>	deliver the bags of mail. Your taxes in action!

	The postal service is not funded by tax revenues; only by postage
	rates. So, it's your 29-cent (soon to be 32-cent) stamps in action,
	not your taxes.

	Roy

>	The postal service is not funded by tax revenues; only by postage
>	rates. So, it's your 29-cent (soon to be 32-cent) stamps in action,
>	not your taxes.
    
    Try again.  The postal service has been losing massive amounts of money
    yearly and we finance the red ink with taxes, bonds, government "loans",
    or whatever else you want to call it.  
    
    They have no other means of financing, not having stock and, if they
    did issue stock, I should hesitate to buy it.

RE: <<< Note 2788.112 by DPDMAI::EYSTER "Dogbert's Clues for the Clueless" >>>
   
>>    Try again.  The postal service has been losing massive amounts of money
>>    yearly and we finance the red ink with taxes, bonds, government "loans",
>>    or whatever else you want to call it.  
  
     In a poster at the post office, they claim to have been self-supporting
     since 1982.  From where does your information come?

                                      Greg

    
    I've started a small mail-order business and have recently had
    firsthand experience wif da postal system.  I've had one lost package
    (out of about 40) and expect to have more soon.
    
    Next time, I'll charge my customers for UPS shipping and not mess with
    the huge lines at my local post office.
    
    -Ed
    

the u.s. postal survice is SUPPOSED to be self supporting. the revenue from 
stamps is SUPPOSED to pay for all the expenses, such as salaries, buildings,
transportation.  i've seen the figures, but do not have them in front
of me now, so this is from memory and subject to error.

most years the postal service loses money.  immediately after a rate increase
they usually make money, but not always.  perhaps it was after the switch from
.18 to .20, or from .20 to .22 that they lost money even after the increase.
congress is under no obligation to provide extra money to cover the loss,
but it has always done so.  the loses are on the order of a few percent of
total revenue.  rate increases are usually on the order of 10 percent:
.05, .06, .08, .10, .13, .15, .18, .20, .22, .25, .29, and .32 proposed.
(the above list goes back to before the postal service.)

when i looked at the data i concluded the postal service was getting less
efficient, rather than more efficient.

in spite of that, rates for first class mail are generally lower in the u.s.
than in most countries, such as great britian, france, germany, israel, norway,
japan, australia, etc.  the only exception i can recall is china, but there
are probably others.

now, back to our regularly scheduled rathole...

    
    When I was a kid, first class postage was 3 cents an ounce and an
    average-good salary was about $4,000 a year.  Now postage is ~30 
    cents an ounce and an average-good salary is about $40,000 a year.
    
    Percentagewise, postage is no more expensive today than it was
    in 1953.  And how much would *you* charge to carry a piece of
    paper from, say, Boondock, Arkansas (pop. 17, no paved roads) to 
    Mooserib, Alaska (pop. 4, no paved roads and 23' of snow)?  The
    postal service does it for 29 cents!  Reliably!  In only a few
    days!  I have no gripe with the postal service.

re: .115

>    Next time, I'll charge my customers for UPS shipping and not mess with
>    the huge lines at my local post office.
    
And if *I* was one of your customers, I'd try to talk you into using the
US Mail, since UPS's customer service on the receiving end leaves a heck
of a lot to be desired.  If I'm not home when the US Mail delivers a package,
I can go to my neighborhood post office to pick it up.  If I'm not home
when UPS comes, it can take days before a successfull rendezvous takes place.

Yes, US Mail can cost more for packages, but I'm willing to pay a bit more
for better service.  Obviously we have different opinions on the service
quality of the USPS. :-)

-Hal

> ...since UPS's customer service on the receiving end leaves a heck
> of a lot to be desired. 
    
    I was raised on a farm, so I have a different mental picture when I
    think of being on the "receiving end" of USPS "servicing".  :^]
    
    USPS overnight -vs- FedEx overnight...$1 cheaper (loses millions a year
    which we subsidize) and 1 of 4 don't get there overnight.  In addition,
    when I send anything of value to Puerto Rico, I send it FedEx, as it
    actually gets there unstolen and on time.
    
    You can pick a package up at the post office, sure, but most businesses
    are open during normal delivery hours.  I use a private mail suite
    that's open when it's convenient for me.  They can send anything USPS,
    UPS, FedEx, etc. as well as make copies, keys, sell stamps and boxes,
    and take passport photos.  $10/mo and worth it to me.
    
    Postal wokers, when not practicing target shooting, take classes on
    being surly from the old ladies who run license branches.  I can't
    believe anyone would cite them as an example of a good service
    attitude.
    
    Make private postal services legal (they're not now) and the
    competition might change things.  Until then, I use the USPS as little as
    possible.  I'd take out the mailbox, but my wife likes the coupons,
    so...

    
    Re: .118
    
    Actually, I'll give me customers the choice.
    
    -Ed
    

Ah, the wonder of ratholes.

To get the discussion back on track, I wonder if the US Postal Service tekes
VISA cards?

But I also wonder how long the US Postal Service can stay in business now that
their most profitable business is now being done by electronic mail, FAX, and
other carriers?  They'll probably have to charge what the service costs.  No
longer will my cross-town letter subsidize the East Cupcake Idaho-to-North
Dirtridge Missouri letter.

Paul

   My dad quit the Post Office around 1975.  He just pissed off at them. 
   The straw that broke the camel's back was replacing parcel post
   sorting clerks with machines.  
   
   Up until then, the parcel post line was rated at 96% efficiency
   (combination of lost/damages packages and delivery times).  Then the
   PMG decided to replace the people with machines.  The thing was that
   before a single machine was installed, the vendor (using the same
   efficiency formula) declared that their machines would achieve a
   whopping 80% efficiency.  The PMG was ecstatic.  The union was
   pissed.  Dad quit.

Re:<<< Note 2788.119 by DPDMAI::EYSTER "Dogbert's Clues for the Clueless" >>>

>    USPS overnight -vs- FedEx overnight...$1 cheaper (loses millions a year
>    which we subsidize) and 1 of 4 don't get there overnight.  

I'd have to question those statistics.  I have used USPS Express Mail for 
several years, typically about twice a month, and have *never* had one fail to 
get there when promised.  Perhaps that's because I almost always use the
"Signature waiver" option...? 

And I second the sentiments about UPS delivery.  I've experienced the same 
delays in actually getting my package because I was not home, and I've seen 
times when they've left expensive merchandise on my front step despite a 
conspicuous "Signature Required" sticker.  They just don't seem to be 
consistent.

-  David

    To digress back to the topic..., .109 specifically.
    
    Hmmm, I just got a First Bank charge card solicitation yesterday and I
    was *NOT* on the list given to First Bank for VISA travel cards. It
    might just be a coincidental regional or national solicitation wave.

    The GAO (General Accounting Office) provided the stats and recommended
    that the USPS either drop their overnight delivery service or begin
    charging for the actual cost of it, which would put them WAY over the
    amount that FedEx charges.
    
    Currently, we're subsidizing the red ink for the USPS to underbid a
    private company.  And we tell Russia "Market economy, folks, only way
    to go!".  Phhbbfffttt!
    
    Man: "Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help".
    
    Crowd: "Aaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!  Run!"
    
    						Brent :^]

    re .109
    
    I also received same solicitation and I was supposedly *NOT* on the
    list either.

I've been using the USPS "priority mail" 2 day mailer things for about a year
now. I have yet to have one make it in 2 days. 3 days seems to be the mean, 
with occasional 4 day deliveries. So much for "on-time".

dave

>
>    Man: "Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help".
>    
>    Crowd: "Aaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!  Run!"
>    
>    						Brent :^]

Maybe they will do better with health care...

Lee

    Grrrr... and I got the solicitation as well.
    
    	Dave

    I used the USPS 2 day mailer for six months with no problems; then i
    had one not even get there.
    
    get the post office to trace it for you; what a joke
    
    I DO NOT USE THE USPS ANYMORE; I NEVER WILL AGAIN

    	I had something similar happen to me recently with Certified mail
    by the USPS.  After 3 weeks it was returned.. coincidentlally after the
    trace was finished.  
    
    	Never had a problem before this but will start using FedEx more
    often.
    
    	C

	What does this rathole have to do with life at Digital?

							mike

    I think someone accidentally moved this to 2959, so the rathole is now
    open in two places.  Maybe we should close this off, let it get back to
    Visa, and begin discussion anew there.
    
    Maybe we'll get some decent Postal Worker jokes out of it, eh?  See ya
    @ 2959!
    
    						Brent

    
    The post office has stopped its 2 day service as of the 25 of march.
    
    bc
    

    
    
    Heck this ratho....er I mean note somehow went from company issued Visa
    cards to health care.

...tear up all of the stuff, including the outside envelope, and stuff it 
back in their pre-paid mailer and send it in.   You'll be off the list soon.

8-)

Bob

    Re: .135
    
    How do they know it's you, if you tear up the form?
    
    				Steve

    
    I think the USPS has a serious problem.  I have noticed within the past
    9 months that I and others (including one business partener) have not
    received mail.  All parties have "stable" addresses (have not moved).
    I wonder if the Post Office is so inundatated with junk mail that they
    can not keep up and provide the quality of service that has always been
    their hallmark?  Any other comments?
    
    ems

    You're mail is probably in that sack they found burning under a 
    bridge in Chicago! 8-)
    
    Jim C.
    

>      <<< Note 2788.135 by SYORPD::DEEP "Bob Deep - SYO, DTN 256-5708" >>>
>                  -< Here's how I get off junk-mail lists... >-
>
>...tear up all of the stuff, including the outside envelope, and stuff it 
>back in their pre-paid mailer and send it in.   You'll be off the list soon.

Doesn't work for me - I've been trying it on Book of the Month Club*
and the Planetary Society for years, two or three times a year, and the stuff
keeps coming.  (I don't tear up the  form, I write "TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST"
in big letters on it and sign it, and it doesn't work.)

And to defend the rathole, this is relevant to life at DEC because the original
mailing referred to was from First Bank, who is suspected by some here as
using the DEC-provided info from the Visa Card deal.

- tom]

*"When I took this job, I made a promise to get you back...."
three times a year for six years.
Clearly somebody not being held accountable in his job.

    One postal worked had been filling a huge hole in his backyard with the
    mail he was to have delivered.  When he didn't feel like walking his
    route, or he got tired, he dumped the remainder in the hole.
    
    The USPS, responding to "customer" outcries on his route, tracked him
    down as the culprit in only 18 months.

    My wife and I run a business by mail on the side. It's unbelievable how
    many of our packages never arrive at their destination. I'd guesstimate
    5-8% never arrive. Oh yeah, in keeping with the topic, we do take Visa,
    even the Digital ones! :-)
    
    Harry
    

    How many packages never arrive vs. "never arrive" if you know what I
    mean?

    Has anyone had any problems with getting timely bills from Digital's
    new VISA provider?  I never received a February bill and sure enough,
    my March bill came with a past-due notice on the February stuff.  Maybe
    I accidently pitched the February bill since the envelopes look an awful
    lot like junk mail.  Any other problems out there?
    
    - Greg
                                                     

    I had the same problem. I called them up, and they claimed it had been
    sent. They took the 30 overdue off the account. I'm happy. They have
    their money. End of story.
    
    /ed
    

    re: .140
    
    >    The post office has stopped its 2 day service as of the 25 of march.
    
    Interesting.  I mailed a letter using USPS Priority 2-day mail on March 30.
    
    -- Russ

    >    The post office has stopped its 2 day service as of the 25 of march.
    
    I saw a neighbor pull a 2-day package out of his mail box just a few
    hours ago. (Of course, who knows how long ago it was mailed!) ;-)  
    
    Harry
    

    
    was it two day or overnight ??
    
    bc
    

    re: .150
    
    Mine was two day.  If they were cancelling it, I'd expect to see a
    notice in the Post Office (heck, they've got rate change notices there
    that are 2 years old!).
    
    I've seen nothing, heard nothing about cancelling the service.  Since
    they're making no guarantees regarding the service, I'd image that it
    could be quite lucrative for them.
    
    -- Russ

    Playboy, this month (cover: Elle McPherson) under "interesting
    statistics".  23% of USPS overnight mail...isn't.

re: .-1:

>     Playboy, this month (cover: Elle McPherson) under "interesting
>     statistics".  23% of USPS overnight mail...isn't.

You actually READ the articles????

John

    Yah.  I'm a little perverted.

    > was it two day or overnight ??
    
     It said 2-Day Priority Mail in big letters on the outside. The
    overnight service is called Express Mail.
    
    Harry
    

    
    wrt Visa card limits - everyone is assigned some limit up to which Visa
    will authorize any charges you make. However, there are 4 categories of
    charges which will always be authorized, even if you're over the
    predefined limit (providing you've paid your bill in the last sixty
    days), they are: airlines, restaurants, hotels and rental cars. Now
    even if you are over your limit and have a charge that doesn't fit into
    one of the 4 categories, you can get it manually authorized by asking
    the merchant to call the company (or you can call the service number),
    explain to the service representative that it is a legitimate expense
    and then they will authorize the charge.
    
    It's easy to find out what your limit is, simply call the service
    number and ask. It's also easy to get your limit raised - simply ask
    the service person who the Digital person you should contact is. The
    Digital person will informally ask for a reason to increase the limit
    and then tell Visa to do it.
    
    I travel about 60-70% of my time for the company and found that
    occasionally I'd get an authorization refused for something which was a
    valid travel expense, so I asked for my limit to be increased and they
    did it without any burdensome forms or any other painful bureaucratic
    procedures.
    
    At least from my perspective the shift from Amex to Visa was smooth and
    the Visa people seem just as responsive (if not more) than the Amex
    people were. Also, at least in the U.S., Visa is more widely accepted
    than Amex.
    
    -Joe
    
              

Does anyone know of any VISA members with Digital equipment?  I didn't get 
any response to the following note.

Please reply to my VAXmail address too, I hardly look in here.
Thanks.

              <<< SMAUG::USER$944:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SNAGWY.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< SNA GATEWAY NOTEFILE - For INTERNAL USE ONLY >-
================================================================================
Note 5378.0               VISA Credit Cards Connection                No replies
TAVIS::JONATHAN                                      16 lines  18-APR-1994 05:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone had any experience in connecting up a VISA member (Digital 
environment) to one of the VISA Headquarters around the world?

The VISA sites at headquarters are all IBM sites, and VISA requires any member
site that wants to connect up, to use a custom-made PS/2 as a gateway, which
they call a VAP (VISA Access Point).  This VAP has to be connected to 
the VISA member's FEP 37XX or to his IBM mainframe, and is defined as a PU2,
to run LU2 and LU0 sessions.

It seems to be self-evident to the people at VISA headquarters that all their
members are IBM shops.   No-one considered anything else, and so far the person
I have talked to at the London headquarters, cuts me off in mid-sentence when I 
mention a Digital SNA Gateway to connect up our local customer.  

Does anyone have any suggestion (including 3rd party solutions) how to utilize 
the VAP in a Digital environment?   Any help will be gratefully accepted.

    	Barclays bank (U.K.) was one of the founder members of VISA. They
    have a *lot* of DEC equipment. I don't know any details myself, but I
    could suggest other notes files if nobody working with Barclays happens
    to read this file. Any business-related U.K. notes file would probably
    find someone. Maybe Barclays is *all* DEC and nobody working with them
    reads the SNA gateway notefile.

    re .158
    
    Thanks for the Barclays Bank pointer.
    Does anyone know of any business-related UK Notesfiles, where I might
    ask more about Barclays and a possible connection to VISA Headquarters?

On Friday, April 15th, I booked a flight to Spring DECUS in New Orleans. On
Friday, April 22nd, I received the bill from First Bank VISA (our new corporate
VISA card). The bill says the payment is due on May 11th which is four days
after I BEGIN my trip.  I booked the trip far enough in advance to get a good
fare for Digital, but it's absurd to get a bill so soon.  American Express was
never like that.  I see my options as follows: 

o Book my future flights much closer to the time of departure. This will 
  end up costing Digital more money, but will make my life simpler.

o Book in advance, but submit the early VISA expenses for a travel advance.
  This is a real hassle, plus I'm note sure Digital does travel advances 
  anymore.

o Use my personal American Express card to charge all future Digital items.

o Pay all advance charges out of my pocket this time, and decline all future
  Digital travel that requires advance planning (longer than 2 weeks before
  departure).

Has anyone else had problems such as this? Does anyone have any other 
suggestions?

Jim

    Xerox your receipt for the airline ticket and write  a  note  on
    the bottom of the copy saying what you did.

    e.g. "This ticket is for travel to commence on May  8,  1994.  I
    will  enclose  the  original and claim an advance on the voucher
    for that week."

    Then you do exactly that - enclose the original in  the  voucher
    for  the  week  of  travel  and  treat the amount of the airline
    ticket as an advance. It worked for me.

    d

    Re .159
    
    Try your Barclays question in ROCKS::UK_DIGITAL
    
    KP7 to add to your list

RE: .161

They haven't even written the ticket yet.  I get tickets a week from Wednesday.

Jim

    Jim,
      You can do what I do...ignore the VISA bill and pay it when you get
    your expense check.
    
    Debbie
    

Re; .164,
>   Jim,
>      You can do what I do...ignore the VISA bill and pay it when you get
>    your expense check.
>    
>    Debbie
 
I know of a person who ended up having their credit rating ruined for years
because their expenses got bollixed up in channels, and they couldn't afford to
pay the expenses out of pocket.

Just bear in mind that it is not Digital's credit that will get screwed if you
don't pay.  And TRW etc. don't care whether you got your paperwork in on time or
what.  All they know is that YOU didn't pay your bill...  

    re -.1
    
    They're right, it IS your credit, not Digital's.  Says so right in the
    agreement.

    Fear of ruining your credit rating by being a month or two late on a
    credit card payment may or may not be based on reality. As an
    example...my husband and I recently purchased a home and applied for a
    mortgage. We filled out the necessary forms and waited for our credit
    approval. We have no debt except for our other mortgage. I have always
    paid every bill I've ever received on time (unless I was on an extended
    business trip and physically couldn't). My husband believes in only
    paying bills after he's received the 3rd or 4th notice of payment(as
    long as he doesn't accrue any interest). 
    The credit report came back and 
    
    his was crystal clear while mine showed one late payment to JC Penney
    10 years ago! Plus, credit card companies are always trying to get him
    to take their credit cards! So, rather than try and shell out $8000 of
    my own money to pay my Corporate credit card bill because Digital can't
    get their act together to cover my expense....I let the bill wait.
    
    Your mileage may vary.
    
    Debbie
    

    re:-1

    	Doesn't sound like as much of a joke anymore. Excuse me if this
    appeared else where, but this is an excerpt from mail I received
    regarding a change in company policy as of Feb. 6, 1995 -

             3).  If necessary, notification will be sent to the
             employee and their cost center manager at 45 days past
             the due date.  The employee will have the opportunity to
             rectify the situation and or be subject to Corrective
             Action and Discipline (Final Written Warning).
     
    	Speaking for myself only, I have no faith in the corporate Visa
    system. My last two business trips have resulted in a 60 day late 
    and a 45 day late because First Bank supposedly never received my check. 
    This is two times in a row. In both cases, I promptly did my expenses
    and mailed a check after my account was credited with the expense
    money. I didn't even know I was late until I was E-mailed a late
    notice.
    
    	I'm not sure how they calculate # of days late, but my last trip
    involved using the card on 12/4/94. I would have thought this would
    have appeared on the Dec. bill to be paid in January. This is the one
    that I have a 45 day late on, which I believe has been upgraded to a
    60 day late. Unless the clock starts ticking as soon as the charge is
    made, I don't see how they can get 60 days out of this.

    	For me, this is all a non-issue at this point. Based on these
    experiences, I canceled my corporate Visa card. The risks in having the 
    card are not worth the benefits. There are, in effect, no benefits to
    me in having this card. These experiences, togther with the company
    policy change, were more than enough to let me know I want nothing to do
    with a corporate Visa card. I will utilize the cash advance system for 
    company business from now on.

    	Ray

    Similar experience here. I was billed on the very day I registered at
    DECUS, billed the next week. It takes about 4 weeks (best case) to get
    my expenses through. Result: "late" according to VISA. 	
    
    I also saw the memo. Same old scenario: problem with procedures? Flog
    the employees. 
    
    Re .last, I thought expense advances were limited to something like
    $30.00/day for meals??? 
    

    re .168 and .169
    
    Yes cash advances are severly limited these days - I know from
    experience. I was only able to get a cash advance for $400 for a 2 week
    trip to cover meals - no airline - no hotel - just meals.
    
    I've heard that unless you have a corporate visa you cannot charge
    anything from Thomas Cook - ie - they won't let you use a personal
    credit card for corporate travel. I don't know if this is true or not.
    
    
    

    If you don't have a "corporate" Visa then airline tickets you get
    through TC are charged to a central billing number.  Hotel reservations
    still require you to use your personal card if you don't have the
    "corporate" card.  Digital ought not to be financing its business on
    the wallets of its employees, but you can at least make it more
    tolerable by refusing the so-called corporate Visa card.
    
    					Steve

    Re:171 (Refusing the corporate Visa Card)
    
    The "Corporate Visa Card" does have several advantages, most notably
    it has no annual fee, a 60 day "grace period" for finance charges, and
    a very large credit limit which generally does not show up on your
    personal credit report.  It is foolish to turn one down.
    
    Moreover, you can make a straighforward case that any finance charges
    incurred on this card are reimbursable employee expenses due to the
    company's slow-payment practices.  Such expense items are routinely
    paid by Finance every week.
    
    

    re: .172
    
>    it has no annual fee, a 60 day "grace period" for finance charges, and
    
    I hestitate to point out that that seems now to have been modified to
    be a 60-day grace period on employment.
    
>    Moreover, you can make a straighforward case that any finance charges
>    incurred on this card are reimbursable employee expenses due to the
>    company's slow-payment practices.  Such expense items are routinely
>    paid by Finance every week.
                   
    Unfortunately, if you're not an employee, you can't file such an
    expense report.   
    
    I agree with Steve. I'm seriously considering turning my card in.
    
    -Tom

    I sent them a 950$ check the day after the bill came.  No invoice the
    following month.  I call for a ballance.  No payment recieved.  I
    refuse to send them another check.  This is the third time.  They
    restrict (completely) my card.  I get a phone call from DEC.  I send 
    another 950$.
    
    New invoice shows they posted the first payment 4 days after I sent it. 
    Posted the second payment 3 days after I sent it.  Checks bounce,
    again, because of Visa (second time).
    
    This would have put me on written notice.  For what.  Who needs this
    crap.  There's too much crap already.
    
    And, go over 700$ on your card, it gets restricted.  Even if you have
    not been invoiced yet.  
    
    This card sucks.

    I was beginning to think it was me.  I'm not going to detail all the
    problems I've had - but suffice to say that this: check sent -> not
    received issue seems to be common.  I have more than 7 credit cards
    (including Store discount cards) and have YET to experience the slip
    shot paperwork occurring with First Card.

    Now I send everything certified mail to:
            First Bank
            141 North Main Ave,
            ATTN: 8th Floor
            Sioux Falls, SD 57102

    Yeah it costs more than a $0.32 stamp - but I've got proof/paperwork. 
    I consider it insurance.  Your mileage may vary.
                                                                          

    My personal Visa card has no annual fee and I *KNOW* when payments are
    made because I make them in person and get a receipt.  I also don't
    have to pay for airline tickets months in advance the way "corporate"
    card holders do.  (I put "corporate" in quotes because it in reality is
    a personal credit card for which Digital happens to pay the fee, for
    which Digital gets the benefits but for which the employee takes all
    the risks.  No thanks.)
    
    					Steve

    re: several 
    I've been bitching for years about the corporation financing its
    operations with its employees credit.  This started happening to me
    when I was in the employ of Burroughs Corp. (aka Unisys) back in the
    '60s... I complained to the powers that were then, too.  All to no
    avail.  I've not figured out an effective way to stop it.  
    
    Last year I went on something like 30 trips, all involving TC travel
    and hotels.  I only once was put into a position of getting a
    nasty-gram from First Bank about late payment.... was on the road for
    extended time and just couldn't get expenses shovelled thru our
    processes fast enough to keep up.  Wound up getting dunned something
    like $134 in late charges, which I promptly and successfully billed as
    an expense and was re-imbursed for.  
    
    As to the notion of using my own VISA vs. the "corporate" one... I
    don't see the difference... either way it's my credit that's at risk.  
    
    Now, if they'd let me choose, I'd go back to AMEX and at least get free
    airline miles for the risk ;^}
    
    This business policy sucks now, and has always sucked.  It's pure bad
    business (for us).. but, we should all know by now that mama dec is not
    particularly interested in doing what is good for her chillun's... just
    in what is good for her.  (and even that is suspect!)
    
    tony

    My problem is recieving an expense check to pay the bill.
    I don't have time to do expenses every week (like everybody) so if I do
    them every other week (sometimes every third week), I then have to mail 
    them to my boss's house (remote and in the home program) for signiture,
    he then signs them and sends them in for payment, so it's 5-6 weeks from
    when the expense is incurred before I recieve a payment.  I say bring
    back travel checks.
    
    Rick
    

    You can put all airline tickets on central billing and get a voucher
    for car rentals, which you present at the time of rental to Avis. 
    Thomas Cook is aware (in Dallas) of this policy.  They also screw up
    regularly, so make sure they remove all but one credit card number from
    your profile, have it marked "CENTRAL BILL FOR AIRLINES, VOUCHER FOR
    CARS, CREDIT CARD *ONLY* FOR HOTELS".  I travel almost weekly and this
    has worked well for me.
    
    It's dropped my stress level drastically.  I declined the corporate
    Visa card after reading the agreement (and knowing what it takes to get
    your expense money).  Apparently, anyone that's taken it has now placed
    themselves in a position to get canned, which is how I read it in the
    first place.
    
    								Tex

    Believe me, I am no fan of the corporate VISA card but it seems as
    though some people are having extraordincary problems. I've never had a
    payment "lost" or not credited. 
    
    Are you using the pre-printed envelope that comes with the bill?
    
    If for some reason a charge shows up on my bill before I've actually 
    completed the trip it is for, then I submit the bill and get reimbursed 
    (I believe there is a policy for this and it lists what you need to submit 
    with your expense report.)
    
    re: .174 
    >>>And, go over 700$ on your card, it gets restricted.  Even if
    >>>you have not been invoiced yet.
    
    I routinely charge an average of $5000/month on my card and have never
    had a problem with a restriction.
    
    When I've received a bill and it comes due and I haven't had my
    expenses reimbursed yet, then I send a letter with the bill to the
    address listed for protesting a charge and tell them that when I get my
    money from Digital, I will pay them. So far its worked.
    
    Personally, I would prefer we go back to AmEx too so I can accumulate
    those miles!
    
    Debbie
    

    	Personally, I'd just assume make use of per diem. By the time I
    fill out my expenses with receipts down to the nth degree, and a
    secretary, a manager, and a finance person review it, any savings that
    might have been captured by such close scrutiny are long gone. 
    
    	Ray

    The restriction after 700$ is if you try to use it to pick up anything
    but hotel, airfare, food or gas.  You now, like 3.5" disk or something.
    

    I agree.. per diem seems to be the best solution... with central
    billing for airfare/car/etc.   Set the meal rate per diem equal to
    80% of the current max allowed for a city.

    Why 80%???
    
    We used to have per diem.  When I was a FS type, I nearly always was
    given per diem when I attended training for anything more than one
    week.
    
    Works for me!  I'd even be willing (though not happily) to float the up
    front expense money and accept the per diem check post diem.
    
    t.

    	According to employee disbursements, per diem is only allowed for
    training. No explanation as to why. When I asked about just getting the
    cash advance I was told that it is company policy to use the corporate
    Visa for company travel. There is a DTN to register corporate Visa 
    complaints. It's 223-7996. 
    
    	Ray

    	After going through all of this, it appears that Digital no longer
    allows travel expenses (food + lodging) to be paid through the use of 
    cash advance.  
    
    	In short, I have been told by the employee disbursments hotline that 
    the company policy is for employees to provide the company with credit for 
    business expenses. The company will reimburse you for those expenses,
    but it cannot guarantee payment before the bill is due. 
    
    	If you do not wish to use the corporate Visa, your only other option 
    is to pay for it yourself with either your cash or your own private credit 
    card. 
    
    	Even though it is called a "corporate card", it is in essence your
    own private card in the sense that you (the card holder) are responsible 
    for payment and you are also held accountable for late payments (i.e. late 
    payments can affect your personal credit rating).
    
    	For me, it has become a non-issue. Travel is at times available but
    not required. I find the new policy unacceptable, but I don't have to
    buy into it. I simply don't travel. 
    
    	Ray

    No.  You MUST use cental billing or the Corporate VISA card for
    Airfare. And you MUST go through Cook.  Anything else and DEC will not
    cough up the money.
    
    You can use your own method of payment for food, hotel and rental cars. 
    Though if you use your own method for renting a car, you are
    responsible for insurances and many credit cards will not provide
    coverage for business use.

    re:-1
    
    	Sorry you misinterpreted my last reply. As far as travel is
    concerned, airline tickets are not a problem. I did not mean to imply
    that you could or should use other than central billing or a corporate
    Visa for that, or that you should not go through Tomas Cook.
    
    	Not sure if central billing can pick up the rental car too. If it
    can, than that is also not a problem. The real problem is food and
    lodging. These can easily run $100+ dollars a day and it adds up quick.
    
    	The bottom line doesn't change though. You, the employee, are expected 
    to provide the company with credit for business expenses.
    
    	Ray

    Rental cars are picked up via corporate voucher.  You present the
    voucher at the ticket counter or, if you're Avis preferred, at the
    remote office in the car lot.
    
    This at least reduces the employee's burden to food and lodging which,
    as -.1 pointed out, can add up damn fast.  This can be picked up on
    your own card, instead of the much-hated corporate Visa.  By using your
    own card, you also don't incur the risk of being dismissed because you
    can't make the payment, bought a gift for your mother, etc.  You also
    get the bennies of whatever card you have.
    
    The whole expense policy is abominable.  For us who travel weekly, you
    can only imagine...
    
    								Tex
    
    PS: I've checked with HP and Unisys people, as well as other
    non-computer companies.  NO ONE has expense policies like Digital,
    including government employees.  We are, to my knowledge, the worst
    major company in this regard.

Ray:

  Central Billing can pick up the car by means of a "Company
  Travel Voucher" that they issue along with your tickets. You
  then give this voucher to Avis in lieu of your credit card.

  "Just say NO!" to the corporate Visa.  All the advantages
  accrue to the company and many of the risks accrue to you!

                                   Atlant

    
    How do you go about getting central billing for airline tickets and a
    voucher for rental cars? Would it be part of your travel profile with
    Thomas Cook? Would a call to Cook, updating your profile suffice?

    Paul

    re: .192
    
    Just call Thomas Cook, have them set up a profile for you, and they'll
    central bill airfare and get you a car rental voucher.
    
    	Steve 

    re -.1
    
    !WARNING!  Thomas Cook will set up your profile for central bill and
    car rental voucher *but*, with their usual efficiency, they'll only do
    it about half of the time.  Make sure your profile says "credit card
    for hotel reservations ONLY!".  Then, make sure whenever you make
    reservations you say "Central bill for air and car".  They only get it
    right about 1 out of 5 otherwise.
    
    						Been There
    						   Done That			
    							Got the T-Shirt

    1984.
    Cambridge, MA
    Meditech 
    
    Installer/trainers, on road 3 of 4 weeks @ 3 different sites, no
    advances allowed, no calls to home office allowed unless to
    engineering, expense reports due the Monday following the week
    of travel or would not be processed (period, no questions, just
    into the trash) (ever try to get soemthing FedEx'd out of Salinas
    on a SUnday?). Salary $16.5K.
    
    Oh, I forgot to add, the required card was American Express, so
    you couldn't pay in part, and you were paid once a month. With
    a live check, no direct deposit.
    
    Now that was the life.........

    
    For those of you who use your personal card -
    
    If I pay with my personal card and I don't get reimbursed for 60
    days then who pays the extra $$ in interest charges? Can you submit an
    expense voucher for this as well? 
    
    I don't know about you but I just don't have an extra grand or so lying
    around that I can float for Digital....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    	Obtained from typing VTX TRAVEL/CLASSIC -
    
      Q.   WHAT HAPPENS IF MY PAYMENT IS NOT RECEIVED WITHIN 60 DAYS?
      A.   A delinquency fee of 2.5% is applied to an account that is 60
    days past due and is the responsibility of the individual cardholder. A
    First Bank VISA Corporate Card will be suspended at 60 days if payment in
    full has not been received.
      
    	This is what happens with the corporate card. Now 2.5% is a lot
    better than any personal card I know of, but the point still doesn't
    change. You're still providing the company with credit for business
    expenses.
    
    	Ray

    A 2.5% fee is the equivalent of a 30% annual interest rate (or 15%
    if you want to spread it out over the 60 days).  Does it still look
    so good?
    
    				Steve

    	For those in here feeling the same frustration that I am, I have
    obtained the name of the manager of the corporate travel group. Her 
    name is Joyce Flinn and she can be reached at POWDML::FLINN.
    
    	This, as far as I can tell, is the official channel to voice
    concerns about the corporate travel policy. Perhaps if there is enough
    negative input about the current system it can be changed.
    
    	Ray

    I ended up with a crdit balance on my Corporate Visa.  And, of course,
    I had to request that they send me back MY money.  I have since gotten
    2 statements (1 per month) showing that my account has been credited
    implying a check has been cut.
    
    Bottom line is I have yet to recieve the money they owe me, and it's
    been over 60 days.  Think they will give me the 2.5% EXTRA?
    
    Mark

    Call Corporate travel, and ask if they will assist you in getting your
    money like they assist Visa. I wonder about the legality of letting
    one's manager know about one's payment habits to Visa, I thought
    credit information was confidential.

    	For Visa card specific problems (i.e. checks supposedly keep
    getting lost in the mail), you can send mail to POWDML::CHARGECARD.
    
    	Ray

    Admittedly, I don't travel much anymore. This is mainly due to the
    demise of ED Services. However, I did have the opportunity to attend  a
    third party class last summer. Knowing that travel, was severly
    restricted, I simply declined to have my VISA turned on when it
    arrived. I felt the risks of having were not worth the little use I
    would get from it. I charged all expenses incurred on the trip to my
    personal Master Card. Its a Gold card so it has all the built in rental
    car insurance. I charged Airline Tickets, Rental car, Hotel and food to
    this card. My expenses were approved with no delays/complaints. Later,
    I found out that this should not have been approved according to
    company policy. I guess you really can get away with anything if you
    act like you know what you're doing !
    

    I would remind any one that is having a dispute over a charge to write
    First Bank.  This protects your rights and keeps the disputed amount
    from appearing as a past due problem.  Of course, they lost my first
    letter...and then they calledasking me to explain the credits I received
    from Avis!
    
    I should add that normally I get rembursed in 2-3 weeks.

    I wrote to them several times about a duplicate charge.  It took from
    February 1994 to January 1995 to get resolved.  I no longer use this
    card.
    

    I found out last week (when I needed $250 worth of 35mm slides done in
    a hurry) that you can't take a cash advance on the Corporate VISA card.
    Quantum's corporate card allows this.
    
    Doug.

    Apparently, the most beneficial feature of the Digital Corporate Visa
    card is that it can double as an ice-scraper in bad weather.

    Can someone please either:
      * post a copy of the Feb 6 memo (referenced in .168) here, 
      * mail me a copy, or
      * tell me where I can find this in VTX?
    
    I did not find the new policy in either VTX ORANGEBOOK or TRAVEL. Maybe
    I was not looking in the correct place.
    
    It figures that after cleaning up my account last week, I have a need
    for this memo this week.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -- Kevin

From:	NAME: Readers Choice                
	FUNC:                                 
	TEL:                                  <CHOICE.READERS AT A1 at SALES at MRO>
To:     See Below



         You have been selected to receive this memo because you 
         are or have been a travel charge card holder or you are 
         a U.S. cost center manager.  This memo is from Corporate 
         Travel Services at DTN 223-7996.  Questions can be 
         directed to Chargecard @MSO or POWDML::Chargecard.
         
         The majority of our First Bank Visa travel charge card 
         holders have shown responsibility in maintaining current 
         accounts.  Unfortunately there has been a recent 
         increase in the number of past due accounts at Digital 
         that is above the industry average.  This increment in 
         past due accounts is adversely impacting Digital's 
         relationship with First Bank Visa. 
         
         To improve Digital's record and to ensure that Digital 
         maintains a mutually beneficial business relationship 
         with First Bank Visa,  we are initiating the new process 
         described below.  This process requires the full 
         responsibility and accountability of all travel charge 
         card holders and their managers and is consistent with 
         Digital's practices pertaining to the collection of 
         company cash advances.  We ask that you please review 
         and fully cooperate with the process, which will take 
         effect on February 6, 1995.
             
         
         PAST DUE ACCOUNTS PROCESS:
         
         This process is intended to support the Company's 
         ability to manage past due accounts in accordance with 
         our contractual agreement with the vendor.  Although the 
         card is an individual liability, it is a company charge 
         card issued to the employee based on employment status.  
         The following process will be put in place to 
         appropriately deal with employees whose accounts are 
         past due.
         
         1). The Corporate Charge Card Program Office will notify 
         the employee of an account delinquency when an 
         employee's Corporate Charge Card account is 15 days past 
         the due date.  
         
         2).  If the employee fails to pay the amount due prior 
         to the next statement, the account will be suspended at 
         30 days past the due date.
         
         3).  If necessary, notification will be sent to the 
         employee and their cost center manager at 45 days past 
         the due date.  The employee will have the opportunity to 
         rectify the situation and or be subject to Corrective 
         Action and Discipline (Final Written Warning).
              
         4).  If the employee fails to pay the amount due prior 
         to the next statement his or her card will be revoked at 
         60 days past the due date.
         
         5).  If the employee fails to pay the amount due, the 
         employee will be subject to termination.
         
         6).  If the cost center manager has been notified of an 
         employee's past due status, the cost center manager will 
         be notified (weekly) when past due amounts are paid in 
         full.
         
         7).  On February 6,1995 all employees whose accounts are 
         15 days or more past the due date, will receive 
         notification.  Cost center managers will NOT be notified 
         on February 6, 1995.  On March 7, 1995, the above 
         process will begin as outlined in steps 1 through 6, 
         copying the cost center manager on notification to any 
         cardholders who are 45 days or more past due.
         
         We must rely on business managers to help reinforce the 
         messages and to support the company's effort to improve 
         our travel payment performance.  Cost center managers 
         are also expected to ensure that the approval process 
         for business expenses is managed on a timely basis and 
         does not negatively impact the reimbursement process to 
         employees.  
         
         
         
         POLICY REMINDERS:
         
         Digital will reimburse the employee for all business 
         related expenses allowed as stated in Personnel Policies 
         and Procedures Section 5.11.  The employee is 
         responsible for paying the full amount due upon receipt 
         of a billing statement.  If payment is not received by 
         First Bank Visa prior to issuing the next statement, the 
         account is considered delinquent. 
         
         Personnel Policies and Procedures Section 5.11 requires 
         that the corporate charge card be used for valid 
         reimbursable business expenses.  Personal charges are 
         not allowed on the corporate charge card with the 
         exception of incidental personal expenses incurred 
         during Digital business travel.  
         
         Personnel Policies and Procedures Section 5.11 states 
         that "employees are expected to submit expense claims 
         for trips requiring air travel and/or an overnight stay 
         within seven days after the occurrence of the expense or 
         every two weeks if the employee is on an extended stay."  
         
         We thank those corporate charge card holders who have 
         diligently kept their accounts up to date and cost 
         center managers who have managed a timely and accurate 
         expense approval process.  We ask that everyone 
         cooperate with us in this effort to maintain timely, 
         reconciled accounts.
         
         Attached is an explanation of some procedures that 
         employees frequently have questions about.
         
         Thank you,
         
         
         
         
         
         

         Attachment to Corporate Chargecard Program announcement:
         
         
         ADVANCE PURCHASES:
         
         Travel purchases made far in advance of a a trip may be 
         expensed prior to taking the trip in order to maintain 
         corporate card accounts in current status.  The 
         passenger receipt and a copy of the First Bank Statement 
         provide supporting documentation for airline tickets.  A 
         photocopy of the passenger receipt should be retained 
         while traveling, for on the road changes.  A Charge card 
         statement may be used to document an expense report for 
         an advance hotel deposit or for other advance payments 
         made such as conference fees. 
         
         BILLING ERRORS:  
         
         Erroneous charges or returned airline tickets awaiting 
         credit must be disputed in a timely manner by calling 
         First Bank customer service at 1-800-344-5696.
         
         EXPENSE VOUCHER PROCESSING:
         
         In order to avoid delays in processing expense vouchers, 
         expense reports should be completed in accordance with 
         Personnel Policies and Procedures Section 5.11.
         
         In order to support the timely processing of expense 
         vouchers cost center managers and employees should 
         ensure that forms are complete, and legible, all badge 
         number's are included, and the approver has signatory 
         authority for the cost center and the associated 
         expenses and amount.
         
         
         
Distribution:
This message was delivered to you utilizing the Readers Choice delivery
services.  If you have questions regarding this message, please contact
the author(s) of the memo.

What penalties are there for Digital failing to reimburse the employee in
a timely fashion?  Or for First Bank failing to credit the account?   Why
would any employee put up with such nonsense?

				Steve

    The only reason an employee would put up with such nonsense is if
    Digital made it impossible to perform your job without the card, which
    is what they're working on doing with the car rental.
    
    This is, to put it as nicely as I can, absolute BS.  If everyone cut up
    their stupid cards and sent them back in, we wouldn't have these
    problems.  As near as I can tell, however, it appears that someone "up
    there" figures "Hey, I got away with that!  Let's try THIS!".
    
    I don't have the card, I won't sign any papers that say "You're
    responsible for Digital's bills" with no mention of reimbursement,
    timely or otherwise, but heavy mention of termination if you don't pay
    up.
    
    I'm sick of traveling, staying in "Digital-approved" dumps, driving
    "Digital-approved" deathtraps, eating at the "Digital-approved" rates
    (try that one in San Francisco or LA), being told I won't be reimbursed
    for anything over those rates, or dessert.  And all this while enjoying
    the lovely sights of Battle Creek, MI, Budd Lake, NJ, and winters in
    Minneapolis...that is *after* finally successfully
    
    Here's a raspberry for the creator(s) of this pile of fecal matter.  
    Phhhhbbbbbfffftt!
    
    								Tex
    
    (And if any of the guilty parties would like to contact me personally
    so I can relate my experiences, I'll make time for you.  Digital has
    made life nearly impossible for us road warriors.)

	My answer to that memo was "When I get my money, you get yours,
	no sooner, no later".

							mike

Steve:

  It's rapidly becoming apparent that you'll put up with it
  if you have to travel, or you won't be re-imbursed at all.
  Every memo is increasingly phrased in that tone.  And if
  your job requires travel, then you'll put up with it,
  period.
                                   Atlant

If it comes down to that, then I won't travel.  My job doesn't require it,
though the travel I do is of benefit to the company.

				Steve

    re:208

    	You can also find more information about this by typing VTX TRAVEL
    and select menu item #2 (Corporate Charge Cards). There are a few items
    in here as well, such as some of the question and answers -

      Q.   WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING MY MONTHLY STATEMENT?
      A.   Under the Digital Corporate Charge Card program, the individual
           employee cardholder is responsible for paying the First Bank VISA 
           bill each month.

      Q.   WHAT HAPPENS IF MY PAYMENT IS NOT RECEIVED WITHIN 60 DAYS?
      A.   A delinquency fee of 2.5% is applied to an account that is 60
           days past due and is the responsibility of the individual cardholder.

    
    	Please note that this is 2.5% of *THE OUTSTANDING BALANCE*. Not to
    be confused with a 2.5% interest rate, which someone else pointed out a
    few notes back works out to about a 15% annual rate (or something to
    that effect).
    
    	On a happier note, they will not report you to the credit bureau
    unless your account is 150 days delinquent. Not much consolation though,
    if you get hit with a 2.5% late fee for company travel expenses.

    	Ray
    

    Re: .216
    
    2.5% per month is 18% per year.
    
    			Steve

    Steve, I don't know why you are getting so worked up about this.
    If you can't get expenses reimbursed in 60 days, you have bigger
    problems than your credit card.  My boss is 1000 miles from me
    so I have to rely on the mail to get my money, and even when I
    am lazy, I still get my money in time.  Maybe I'm just lucky?

>    2.5% per month is 18% per year.

1.5% per month is 18% per year.  2.5% would be 30% per year.    

    If it really is compunded monthly, 2.5%/month it's almost 35%/year.

>    Steve, I don't know why you are getting so worked up about this.
>    If you can't get expenses reimbursed in 60 days, you have bigger
>    problems than your credit card.  

I think the problem is this:

  1. DEC doesn't guarantee to pay you on time
  2. If you don't pay the credit card bill on time, DEC can fire you

The need to meet credit obligations is the same whether you're using
your own card or a corporate one.  The only change, from an employee
point of view, is that if you have the corporate card, you acquire
the possibility of getting fired over it.

It's the one-sided nature of the arrangement that stinks.

    re:218
    	
    	I just got hit with a 60 day notice not to long ago. I was traveling
    just prior to the cut-off date for when the bill was due. The expenses
    hit the bill before I got reimbursed. When I got my money I sent a
    check.

    	When the bill came due the first time and the payment wasn't there,
    it was counted as a 30 day late. They didn't receive the check I sent, for
    whatever reason, and by the time the second bill had arrived and the
    payment didn't, it was 60 days late. BINGO !!! I didn't even know they 
    hadn't received the check until after the 60 day late notice. The
    timing was such that I also didn't have my CU statement to know that
    the check hadn't cleared.

    	In another case, I wound up with 3 sets of tickets to go on a business 
    trip that kept getting postponed. I had to expense the tickets *before* I 
    went on the trip due to the fact that the bill was due (they went on the 
    Corp. card). I didn't know that I could have Cook central bill the
    tickets at the time.

    	Then I wound up not going on the trip. This happened around the same 
    time I had received the expense money, so I had to turn the tickets in for 
    a credit. By the time the airlines posted the credit and First Bank 
    received it, it wound up being 60 days late. The problem was I received a 
    credit slip from Cook *before* the second bill was due so I figured I was 
    all set. WRONG !!!!

    	In all fairness, I called on the latter incident and was told as a
    courtesy that they would do a *ONE TIME* reversal of the late charges.
    Since I used up my one time, and I don't have to travel, I canceled my
    card.

    	I know these things don't happen all the time. The point is it's
    not difficult to wind up with circumstances that result in a 60 day
    late once in a while. When/if it does happen, the 2.5% late fee comes
    out of *YOUR* pocket. 

    	Not only do you receive no benefit for having the card, you assume 
    *ALL* the risks for repayment of "business expenses" *AND* you can 
    receive written termination notices if something happens to cause a 60
    day late. It makes absolutely no sense for anyone to have and use this 
    card as it exists today, other than the fact that Digital basically
    forces people that have to travel to use it.

    	Ray

    
         RE: .222
    
         Of course, this places the corporation at considerable legal risk,
    if someone is terminated under these circumstances.  My guess is that
    the hard line taken in the memo will NOT be enforced in every instance.
    It will be a pain in the butt, though.
    
                                      Greg

Personally, I've never had a problem with getting expenses reimbursed on time.
However, this has not been a big deal for me as I've never been out-of-pocket
any significant amount - I always requested and received an advance before
travelling and had my airline tickets central billed.  That arrangement works
fine for me and I'd like to continue it.

The problem as I see it is that Digital is pushing everyone to use the
"corporate" card instead of advances, shifting the liability from Digital
to the employee.  The employee has to take it on faith that:

	1) Digital will decide to "allow" legitimate expenses incurred
	2) Digital will reimburse the employee on time
	3) FirstBank will credit payments on time

I have seen too many reports where any or all of these failed to occur,
placing the employee in debt and at risk of losing their job, all because
Digital chose to transfer business expense liability to the employee with
no compensation.

Now I have no problem with the concept of a corporate credit card which is
used to charge business expenses.  If Digital offered such a thing, I'd
be glad to use it - but they don't.  What they call a corporate credit card
is actually a personal line of credit taken out by the employee, where the
employee has the sole obligation to repay it, where the employee could be fired
if they don't pay on time and where the employee gets none of the benefits
offered by other credit cards (frequent flyer miles, etc.)    A real corporate
card would be billed to Digital - any improper charges would be handled
exactly like any other misuse of company resources under existing policies.

If you also consider that employees who travel generally give Digital lots
of unpaid work time (especially when travelling on weekends), the very real
risk of not being reimbursed for legitimate expenses is not one that I, at
least, am willing to take.  When I agreed to become an employee of Digital,
I did not agree to become its bank.

					Steve

    re:224
    
    	I also really haven't had a problem getting reimbursed for expenses
    in a reasonable amount of time. I still managed to incur 60 day lates
    in spite of this though.
    
    	Ray
    	

While this may never be a problem, should Digital declare bankruptcy, employees
may have to wait a long time to get reimbursed, if ever. I heard some stories
about this happening at Wang. 

    Re: 222
    
    
    A 2.5% late fee does **not** have to come out of your pocket.  Put this
    charge on a voucher as a "miscellaneous expense" and have your manager
    sign the voucher.  It is an entirely legitimate expense item and will
    be paid routinely by Finance.
    
    

    Why don't we get a "real" bank like Citicorp for VISA?
    It's the largest. Inquiring minds want to know. First
    Bank must have been the CHEAPEST.
    

    
    RE .228
    
     Yep, thats away round the 2.5% charge but it still doesnt erase the
    blackmark that is put in your 'is he good for credit' book.
    Why should you have blackmarks against your personal credit rating 
    when it is the company's fault for not being on time with payments.
    
    Mark.
    
    PS: I have never experienced a late payment but carrying a corporate 
        card under the present T's & C's is not a comfortable feeling, I
        recently performed plastic surgery and had it removed.

    Re: .224 (Steve) - direct billing and advances for travel
    
    If you have a 'corporate card' you can only get a $20/day per diem
    advance.  Not even enough to cover the allowable meal expenses, much
    less hotel, rental car, etc.  I think you have to use the card for
    airline tix too, but I'm not sure.  If you have a card, they make you
    use it.
    
    But a two week trip at the beginning of the month when things like
    holidays are nearby (say, Fall DECUS, a week before Christmas) can make
    the reimbursement/repayment cycle pretty tight.
    
    It was obviously devised by people who don't have employees' interests
    at heart, and don't travel much.  In other words, Bean Counters.
    
    tim
    

    I'm one of Digital's road warriors, which means constant travel.  This
    card may be fine for the infrequent traveler but:
    
    1 - I've had expense reports lost, returned after a month because I was
    $1.50 over for a week on meal allowance (they *didn't* pay minus the
    $1.50, although the balance was almost $2000).
    
    2 - Thomas Cook charge me for tickets I never received to places I've
    never gone.
    
    3 - All expense reports for a month (this can be big bucks for the road
    warrior) *misplaced* while Digital reorged its expense reimbursement
    centers.
    
    For the road warriors out there, Digital has made it damn close to
    impossible to travel.
    
    								Tex

>    For the road warriors out there, Digital has made it damn close to
>    impossible to travel.

Serves 'em right for using such a silly term :-)

"Warriors" ??  Heavens, people, we're just employees for a computer company.

>"Warriors" ??  Heavens, people, we're just employees for a computer company.

Yea?  How many arrows did you duck this morning?

    RE .230
    
    My experience has been that corporate card companies will
    not issue a rating to a creditor.  When I refinanced
    my home, American Express declined to issue a rating
    for my corporate card.
    
    Russ

    Re: 230
    
    My corporate VISA card does not appear on my personal credit record - I
    checked.  This is a major incentive to use it, considering that the
    current expense voucher reimbursement system practically guarentees
    late payments for frequent travelers.

    I don't know if it's credit card company policy, but generally speaking
    corporate-sponsored credit cards are not reported on your credit
    record. The current Corporate VISA doesn't, and Diners Club didn't
    either. Probably has something to do with the credit card activity not
    accurately reflecting an individual's cash flow capability.
    
    If you're overly concerned about it a quick call to 1-800-344-5696
    (First Bank Customer Service) should confirm this.

    	As I mentioned earlier, if you incur a 150 day late, it will be
    reported to the credit bureau. Source is VTX TRAVEL - Corp. Card -
    Q+A's.
    
    	Ray

    If you haven't received a reimbursement from Digital
    within 150 days, someone's head should be on the
    block.  I had a reimbursement take 35 days and when
    I called, they apologized and within 2 days I had
    my money.

    	The only time the 150 days *might* come into effect is if their was
    a contested bill and First Bank would not excuse you on it, and you
    refused to pay it. Not sure if it would ever happen, but I would doubt it.
    
    	As was mentioned by a couple people, getting reimbursed from Digital 
    isn't usually a big problem. It's not whether you got reimbursed, it's 
    whether First Bank got their money. 
    
    	Ray

Re: .240;

>  If you haven't received a reimbursement from Digital
>    within 150 days, someone's head should be on the
>    block.  

Unfortunately, under the current rules, it's YOUR head that's on the block!!!
Actually, as I read them you'd be history by then...

    re: .-1
    
    Yes. 150 days is 90 days after you've gotten your final warning and 60
    days or so after you've been dismissed - if I'm not mistaken.
    
    -Tom

And we're back to the nub of the complaint -- that the only
one who is *compelled* to act in a timely manner is the
holder of the card.  A one-sided "agreement".

    I wonder what getting expense reimbursement is like *after* you've been
    discharged? :^]

I seem to recall a recent reader's choice memo which described 
what constitues a proper receipt. As I recall, the memo said  that an 
expense item on a credit statement does not qualify. ie. You can't use 
your credit card statement for expense reimbursement.

Does anyone have a copy of that memo?

Charles Monia

    Virtually anything can be a reciept provided you have an exception memo
    from the right level of manager. Last year I stayed up all night with
    an out of town customer doing a hairy SAP R/3 upgrade, month later got 
    charged for the guarenteed reservation at the hotel where I never did
    check in, approved with an explanatory memo and credit card statement.
    management 

All:

Totally amazing!!!  It seems to really be true!
VISA has been running a promotion where any charges you make between June 1
and August 31 count towards earning reward certificates.  It covers ANY
number of VISA accounts (for those of you who embrace the American credit 
dream), and you must call the (800) number to request the certificates.

Good luck,




> > IMPORTANT MONEY-EARNING NOTICE!
> >
> > For all of you VISA card holders, today IS your lucky day!
> >
> > All expenditures on your VISA card from June 1 thru August 31 have
> > earned you 10% of the total amount charged on your account, i.e.
> > if you spend $1,000 within this time period, then you have
> > "100 certificates" accumulated with VISA.
> >
> > Here's where YOU need to take action!  Since VISA has 85 million
> > cardholders, they won't be mailing out certificates to everyone.
> > The only way to receive your "100 earned certificates" (which converts
> > to $100 toward Red Lobster Restaurants, Mariott Hotels, rent-a-car
> > agencies, Southwest Airlines, etc.) is to call VISA!
> >
> >      DIAL.... 1-800-520-VISA, press #4 on the tape to speak with a
> > VISA representative, and then...... REQUEST THAT YOUR CERTIFICATES
> > BE MAILED TO YOU!  The rep. will ask for your mailing address and
> > if you call today or in the very near future, the certificates
> > will arrive in about 3 weeks.  Otherwise, it'll take bet. 4-6 weeks.
> >
> > So, be sure to call this number today & have your certificates
> > mailed to you.... Happy Spending!
    

    
    
    It is TRUE, I got mine, no problem. I think they use the sum of the
    closing (billed) balances for those months.

    
    
    Is this promotion for U.S. Card holders only ?

    Awesome; just called, and I've got ~$750 worth of certificates coming.
    
    Many thanks to .248
    
    Dave

    The one catch is that you have to make a purchase on your VISA card
    when using the certificates.
    

    I just called...I have $365 in certificates coming my way.
    
    I was also told that a similar promotion is now happening, for all
    purchases Oct 1st to Dec 31st, and the certificates in that one go 
    towards travel. NorthWest Airlines is a contributor (others too).
    
    Call 1-800-750-VISA after 22-Jan-1996 to get the certificates for 
    that promotion.
    
    This is great....about to spend on a PC....and I plan to travel to
    England next summer. Hopefully I can make the one benefit the other!
    
    Thanks again
    
    - Richard.

    Hate to show my ignorance, but Visa and MasterCard ain't the same
    thing, right?  I've got an American AAdvantage card I use.  Someone
    confirm my worst fears and dash my hopes, please.

    Re: .254
    
    Right, not equal.  Let's see, a consumer advocate would say,
    try calling MasterCard and seeing if they have a similar program.
    
    (New news to me anyway:  apparently there are two entities involved
    with Visa cards, the issuer (the bank, etc.) and VISA-itself.  It's
    the latter that's offering this promo.)
    

    So is this USA only?

If you have a DCU Check card, you have a VISA card.

    So, if you use the DCU Check card to pay for stuff, does it qualify for
    this program?

    Is this good only on a VISA *credit card* only or does it include
    the look alikes?
    
    The DCU Check card isn't a credit card it just gets processed like one. 
    The same thing is true on the Digital First Bank corporate card -- its
    what used to be called a T&E card bacause you can't run up a bill and
    pay $10 a month forever.  Not to mention that it's Digital's not really
    yours....
    
    Larry
    

The DCU VISA check card get credits as well as corporate credit card. 
So when you call, just them all your visa cards and let them tell you
whether you get anything.

    As I recall, option 3 in the menu allows you to enter your card
    number(s) and get your total.
    
    Dave

    re: .250, .256  USA accounts only 
    
    When I called,  I asked if this offer is open to cardholders outside
    the USA, and she said "no".  I asked if there was a normal non-800
    number that they could use, but she said no.  
    
    Mike

    
    Has anyone verified that this is on the up-and-up. Did anyone receive
    something from VISA stating this policy? How do you know it's really 
    from VISA.
    
    Sorry to be paranoid.
    
    ed

I received a flyer about it with my DCU Visa statement earlier this summer.
It's for real.

				Steve

    Re: .248 thanks.  I have $239 in certificates coming.  Wonder what my
    husband has?
    
    Re: .253 thanks for the tip.
    

    You do get credits for your DCU check card as well.  I just called
    for mine and will get 259.  Guess I'll start using it for my groceries
    now, too !  They must expect to get bogged down in phone requests,
    since they'll give you 10 bonus credits if you mail in your request.
    You get credits for 10% of purchases only ( ATM transactions,
    Cash Advances, Balance transfers and Convenience checks don't count ).
    
    The fact that Check cards are getting anything at all, makes me think
    that the merchant fee must be pretty steep, since we're not giving them
    any interest.  Or maybe it's a deal to waive fees for participating
    merchants.  I'd hate to think that my increased use of my debit card
    to get "free gifts" will inflate the purchase price of the goods.
    ( Just my imbedded "you don't get something for nothing" non-purgeable
    memory bank kicking in !)

    Yep,
    It's true.  I called and will get 366 points.
    
    Thanks for the info....

    I'm receiving 1500 points.  They're sending me some certificates. 
    Accompanying the certificates is literature that will explain the
    program and partners.  I just called Monday and they indicated it would
    take about 3-5 weeks before I see anything in the mail.

    I hate to dampen this party but two questions:

    1. has anyone actually received the certificates?
    2. what are the terms and conditions?  I would be impressed
       if we could just turn in the certificates for a free meal
       without buying anything. The Marriott hotel deal could be
       as an example, up to $50 off the rack rate (= no deal at
       all).
    

    I suspect that these certificates require some type of purchase
    and may be another form demand creation ploy.  

    Gim

    
    

    Certificates are in the US Mail.  I'll let you know when I get them. 
    It won't be for 3-5 weeks though.

    Yes they require a purchase - with your VISA card. Listening to the
    program description when I called the 800 number, it said essentially
    that they are discount coupons, not coupons for FREE merchandise and
    services.
    

    Re: What the certificates are.  The voice at other end of the phone
    line gave an example where the Red Lobster gives you $5 off your meal
    if you use a Certificate and VISA.
    
    Bill
    

    When I called and got the amount, they said I had accumulated 95
    credits. I thought that sounded low, so I checked my past statements
    and it turns out that it should have been more like 150 credits. I
    called them back and explained the problem. They said sometimes the
    bank doesn't send them all the transactions that have occured, but they
    would give me credit for the difference plus 10 credits for being a
    gold card holder and another 10 for something else that I forget. So now I'm
    getting around 165 credits. Check those past statements. :-)
    
    Mark K.

    Not that I don't believe it but I am just trying to be careful.
    
    How do I verify that it's really VISA at the other end? 
    
    I am not about to just give someone my VISA credit card number when I
    don't really know who it is on the other line.
    

    VISA ran a worthless gift points system in years past.  basically, you
    accumulated points like this and were able to purchase item through
    their catalog for cash plus these points.  The only problem was the
    price of the items in their catalog even with the points taken off were
    extremely higher than if you went out and bought the item locally.
    

    Just for calling, you get a $50 certificate off a SouthWest full-fare
    ticket.  Hope it's as good as it sounds.

    re: prev question about whether this is legit...
    
    I also wondered, so I called Citibank before calling VISA and they said
    yes, it is valid.  The woman at VISA told me that they make flyers
    available to each bank to stuff into bills explaining the program and
    that some banks choose to use it and some don't (for some unknown
    reason).
    
    	/jeff
    

    RE: .276  You said it, "full coach fares".  Have you priced the
    difference between a full coach, refundable fare and a discounted
    fare?  Its much more than $50 different.  Giving my $50 off a
    full coach fare might come in handle for sudden travel, but that
    is usually business-related (which Digital pays) or family emergency
    related (which you can get discounts from the airline for funerals,
    etc.)
    
    				-John

    Discount coupons are usually worth just about the paper they are
    printed on.
     
    

    VISA ran the same program last year.  I still have the worthless
    certificates.  Example, use your VISA card and stay five nights at a
    Marriott resort and get $10 off the regular rate for each night's stay.  
    The requirements made the certificates of no value to me.  I hope the
    program is better this year.

	... the discounts are only for company business unless you have a pretty
inattentive cost center manager!

I got my packet yesterday.  I shouldn't have bothered.  Most of the offers
are for a free dessert at restaurants over a thousand miles away.  There were
a couple of offers I could use, such as a "buy one pizza get one free" at
Bertucci's.

It did say that the program is continuing.

					Steve

    
    WHAT A FANTASTIC DEAL THIS IS!!!! With my 600 points I can get:

    o  120 free desserts!!! All I need to do is buy 240 entrees. 

    o  $50 off a FULL fare Southwest Airlines ticket!

    o  $20 off REGULAR room rates at Marriott Hotels!

    o  $5 off REGULAR ticket prices for Sea World & Busch Gardens!

    With deals like this, I'll never have to ask for a AAA or corporate
    rate again! And no more clipping coupons for Red Lobster either!

    What a joke.

    Paul

    Hey -- but it didn't cost you anything extra for this did it?  Kind of
    like the coupons that come in the sunday paper -- you've already spent 
    the money [to get the paper, in that case] and the coupons come with
    the paper, and you use them if you can, and toss them if you can't,
    right?  All you had to do here was to call a toll-free number,right? 
    And since the money'd already been spent it didn't cost you more to get
    them, right?  Offer them  to others -- here there are often coupons
    left on the coffee counters for anyone to pick up -- or recycle them.
    
    /sandy

So, what is a "credit" worth?  $1?  When I called they gave me my balance in
"credits", not in dollars.  I don't know off hand what I spent during the time
period so can't relate it to anything.

Thanks,
B

You get 1 credit for each $10 you spent in the period.  A credit's redeemable
value is variable, depending on what you use it for.  For the restaurant
offers, 5 credits is the typical unit to get one "offer" (eg. free dessert).

				Steve

    	So there literally isn't any free lunch ? ;-) If you can use them 
    for something that you would have bought anyway *and* it does provide 
    you with a real savings (not $X off an inflated price which = $0 in
    savings), then it's not a bad deal.
    
    	When I first heard of this deal from a second hand source, the word 
    "rebate" was used which made me think that credits = rebate $. Seems
    the real scoop falls just a bit short of that ;-)
    
    	Ray

    This is a VISA topic, but not about the alleged credit. Has anybody
    had any experience with the DCU VISA--or is it new. Got a flyere in the
    mail and the rates --permamnent rates---not just intoductory look
    a few points lower than my current rates. WHat's the downside?
    Any?
    Bruce  
    

I've had the DCU VISA for a number of years with no complaints.

    There is no downside to the DCU Visa except for the lack of "perks"
    that some other cards offer.  See discussions in UPSAR::DCU.
    
    				Steve

    Same comments as last two...its my only personal Visa card, no
    complaints and its nice to be able to pay the bill by transferring the
    amount from one of my other DCU accounts via EasyTouch or set it up to
    automatically be paid on the day its due.
    
    Debbie
    

    It's plastic with lower rates and no annual fee (in my case), I pay the
    bill by phone, no stamps, the best parts is when the bill arrives it is
    not loaded with junk mail trying to sell me something, like shoppers
    advantage, insurance and other crapola...

A couple of years ago, I had a dispute with an auto service shop.  Fortunately,
I used my DCU VISA card to pay the bill.  I contacted the DCU VISA customer
service department and they stopped payment on the bill.  The dispute with the
auto shop was settled immediately to my complete satisfaction at no additional
charge.  The swift response to my complaint by the DCU VISA customer service
department was crucial to the settlment.  I've been very pleased with the rates
and services offered by DCU VISA.

Val

    Just got a nasty-gram from the Digital Travel office complaining
    because I had not paid my Visa bill.  Their note indicated that Digital
    wants to maintain a good relationship with First Bank, so it is very
    important that I pay my bill.  No mention though about maintaining a
    good relationship with the employee.  The message indicated that I
    should call First Bank if the statement is wrong.  No mention though of
    calling Digital to get them to reimburse me.  Nothings changed.
    
    By the way, the reimbursement has not been made because someone other 
    than me had been "sitting" on my expense reports.  Think I'll send that
    card back to First Union so as not to cause a relationship problem.

    I print my expenses...walk them down to my boss...he signes.....I give
    the copies to the person that need them ...and I send them myself. I
    have had ZERO returned expense reports, missing receipts...etc. My
    suggestion is to take it into your own hands.
    
    		BC

    Previous two replies moved here from separate topic.
    
    			Steve

RE: .295 -< Do it all yourself >-

>    I print my expenses...walk them down to my boss...he signes.....I give
>    the copies to the person that need them ...and I send them myself. I

Without trying to be snide or anything, what do you recommend when you are
in one city, your Admin person who does most of the work for expenses is
in another city 250 miles away, and the manager who has to sign it is in
a third city which is >800 miles away from either of us?

Somehow I don't think it would help my expenses to schedule a visit from
my site to each of their sites every other week just to do expenses...

My point is that in many ways I am in an ideal situation, with a superb
Admin person and a very responsive manager, but I recognize that not 
every person is so lucky.  But in some ways my situation is representative
of a large number of us, and in these ways (having to move physical paper
around the country to do something which could be done just as effectively
electronically except for some arbitrary and antiquated IRS regulations),
my situation stinks.  So please be aware that not everyone is as lucky
as you are in your ability to deal with expenses.

-- Ken Moreau

>    I print my expenses...walk them down to my boss...he signes.....I give

I am glad that works for you.  If I were to walk mine to my boss, that would
be ... let me see 210 miles at 4 miles/hr (I walk fast!), 52.5 hrs each way.
So instead I tried sending my interoffice mail, which stopped working when
the last adminstrative person at our site got downsized 5 months ago.  Now
I am forced to US mail, and of-course I have never got the stamp machine in
our office to work, or have ever been able to find anyone who can figure out
how to make it work (remember no adminstrative help at this site).  So I
drive to the nearest Post Office, and wait in line to have it weighed and
stamped.

I can't remember the last time I saw my boss - November I think

Alan

    re: .295
    
    My manager is 1500+ miles away.  The last time I physically gave her an
    expense report, I figured I was all set.  Nope.  Got lost between her
    office and employee reimbursments.  It's now going throw the chain
    again, this time as an exception because I was under the impression
    that admin people are supposed to make copies of everything before they
    go to employee reimbursments.  Meanwhile, I've floated Digital a loan
    by paying the credit card bill.
    
    Bob

    At our location, the employee is responsible to make the copies before
    giving the expense report to the admin person.  Since most SI people
    are not in the office, we have to go to the office to make copies. 
    Seems like a good use of skills?!?!?!?!?!

	 RE: .294

	I too just received the nasty-gram from TRAVEL, dated 15-JAN-1996,
but here's the rub, I mailed the payment over 10 days ago, 04-JAN-1996, and
it was credited to my account five days ago, 11-JAN-1996. I guess TRAVEL is
living in a time warp. Talk about not maintaining a good relationship with
the employees!

	\Bob Lail

>    I print my expenses...walk them down to my boss...he signes.....I give
>    the copies to the person that need them ...and I send them myself. I
>    have had ZERO returned expense reports, missing receipts...etc. My
>    suggestion is to take it into your own hands.
    
Well, BC, you probably wish you hadn't said this.  One more voice from the 
field -- it would be a three hour round trip for me to drive my expenses to 
my manager -- that's three hours Digital couldn't bill the customer.  I'm on 
a 40 hr a week, long-term assignment, starting the fourth year.  Those of us 
in the field don't have anything just down the hall -- no manager, no admin, 
no cafeteria, no branch of the credit union, etc. etc. etc.  We do get tired 
of being forgotten by the east-coasters all the time.  Well, maybe not all 
the time; hmmmm and there's no snow outside either. :-)

BUT, my October expenses just got paid.  I had to submit them three times.  
Sheesh!

			SQ

    I received the First Bank VISA and Corp. Travel notes about late
    payments, as did folks in my group.  Seems the changes in signatory
    authority, which cut most Manager's & VP's approval limits, have
    caused a delay nightmare for regular travel & expense reimbursement.
    I've paid over $80 in late charges on the corp. card (yes, I send in
    for reimbursement, but since the amount is so low, it only takes a
    few weeks) and it's not out of my pocket directly, but Digital is
    paying for management's decisions to not trust people to be honest.
    
    Mark
    

    Re: .304

>   I've paid over $80 in late charges on the corp. card (yes, I send in
>   for reimbursement, but since the amount is so low, it only takes a
>   few weeks) and it's not out of my pocket directly, but Digital is
>   paying for management's decisions to not trust people to be honest.

    It may be costing Digital money, but it may also be costing you a
    detrimental credit rating for not paying on time.  I'd investigate
    if I were you.

    Bob

I recently took TRW up on their offer for a free copy of my credit report,
and my corporate card didn't even appear on the report.

Has anyone else done this?

[For instructions on how to do this, look up TRW Credit Report in AltaVista.]

/john

To save you some time:
	www.trw.com/iss/isq1.html

	... returns "Not Found" error.

    http://www.trw.com/iss/isq1.html
    
    I just cut and pasted it here.  It works for me this morning.

    Yep, only mine was both TRW and Equifax.  Neither of them show the
    corporate card..... It's a good thing too....		
    
    Toodles.....JPs
    

It won't show up unless they think you're too far behind on payments, then
it may appear.

				Steve

That's interesting, because _every_other_ extension of credit which I have
appeared, even cards cancelled up to almost seven years ago or simple things
like overdraft protection on my checking accounts, never used.

And there are no negative entries on any of them.  Why, of all my cards, would
the corporate card not appear?

/john

Because First Bank doesn't report it to credit bureaus - unless they think
you're a delinquent.  Everything on your credit report was sent to the
bureau at some point.

				Steve

    From the original Q&A on the new travel card:
    
      Q.   WILL THIS REFLECT ON MY PERSONAL CREDIT?
      A.   No.  First Bank does not report the activity on your corporate
           card to any credit bureaus.  However, if you do not pay your
           account for 150 days, then the delinquency will be reported.
    
    Whether this is still true is an open question--but originally,
    activity was not reported to credit bureaus.

OK, so you have to get _five_months_ behind.  That's not very likely.

/john

    According to note .209 you'd probably end up being terminated before 
    reaching 150 days behind, so I guess your credit rating is safe  :-(

    
    Well, I just bought a car and the corp. card WAS on my credit report. 
    I did notice it was not a TRW credit bureau, it was one of the other
    guys.  I had not been late either.  The good thing is that it was
    marked as a Corporate account on the report.
    
    cheryl
    
    

This would appear to be the end of my Corporate Card.  Good riddance.
(BTW, I never gave First Bank my SSAN, nor did I authorize Digital to
release that piece of personal information...)

From:	GRANIT::GRANIT::MRGATE::"SALES::A1::CHOICE.READERS"  1-MAY-1996 17:10:24.21
To:	@Distribution_List
CC:	
Subj:	#23643-FirstBank Corporate Card Message                                1

From:	NAME: Readers Choice                 <CHOICE.READERS@A1@SALES@AKO>
To:     See Below

         You have been chosen to receive this message because the 
         chargecard office has record of a corporate account in your 
         name.  This is an inactive account, however if you have a 
         need for it please contact FirstBank at: 
         
         	1-800-344-5696	24 hour customer service
         
         Customer service will verify your identity by asking a piece 
         of personal information, so have your social security number 
         available.
         
         If you do not need your account do not respond, we will close 
         those accounts that do not respond on May 31, 1996.

Distribution:  This message was delivered to you utilizing the Reader's Choice 
delivery services.  If you have questions regarding this message, please 
contact FirstBank.