Conference 7.286::digital

    re: .0
    
    Remember, the Orange Book is simply a guideline.  All policies are
    subject to local whi...errr interpretation, unless prohibited by law.
    
    Bob

    Call your supervisor when you are unable to attend work.  I believe
    it's up to the two of you to work out how to report the absence.  If
    Digital closes the facility that you work in, then the supervisor is
    informed how to handle that situation also.
    
    Mark

    In the past if Digital closes a facility, all employees have gottem
    paid as if they worked a regular day.
    
    

    
    	I don't think its written anywhere what to do about Snow. It is
    usually up to each persons manager. Mine gives you an option of
    making up the hours by working late or taking vacation time. Obviously
    if the building is closed, you get paid.
    	It is a judgement call, for me I live 1 mile from work. So I
    am pretty much expected to make it to work if the building is open.
    If someone say lives in NH and commutes over an hour each way. Should
    the person who chooses to live in NH be given a free ride? Compared
    to someone like myself who chooses to live close to work? This is
    where management has to balance things out. Personally I would rather
    see my co-workers stay home and not risk driving in from NH. Someone
    else might feel different.
    
    
    Ron

Re 4355, "someone ... who chooses to live close to work": and what about
when, as has happened to me several times, my office location changed while
I still lived in the same place?

It's odd now that I consider it, but none of my employers has ever moved
offices to get closer to me.  Gotta think about that.

___Pete

    re: .5
    
    But where you are today the number of days where snow prevents you to
    reach the office is rather limited ...
    
    			ET
    

The company does not "track" time worked in addition to your 40 hours each week.
Where I work there is no such thing as comp time. Salary is supposed to be a 
give and take. Whats fair is fair. The long weeks that you work should be offset
by days like storm days. Storm days defined as an employees inability to safely
get to work and not having to use either v-time or sick time. Having to use
v-time or sick time when you miss a day of work due to a storm and then not getting
compensated for weeks that you work more than 40 hours is unfair at best. Where
is the equity here? RKL

Being a salaried employee and getting paid for when the plant is closed is not the issue
I as concerned about. What about the salaried employee that felt it was unsafe to
travel to work on Monday (day of the last storm). Should that employee have to 
make up the day or take v-time for it. I say they should not have to. If you have 
make up the day or time or use v-time when you are out due to unsafe weather 
conditions, you should be paid for hours worked in addition to your 40. 
Lets be equitable. 
As a side issue, isn't everybody getting tired of hearing the orange book is "only
a guide line". Its only a guideline when it benefits management to be a guideline.
Policy for a death in the family is three days. being only a guideline do I get 5
days if I feel I need it? 
Allowing different interpretations for anything is asking for inequity.
JMO
RKL

>                      What about the salaried employee that felt it was unsafe to
>travel to work on Monday (day of the last storm). Should that employee have to 
>make up the day or take v-time for it. I say they should not have to. If you have 
>make up the day or time or use v-time when you are out due to unsafe weather 
>conditions, you should be paid for hours worked in addition to your 40. 
>Lets be equitable. 

If said employee is one of those who is always working 40+ hours per week, 
his/her manager should show some leniency and consider Monday morning's 
absence a simple balancing of the employee's work load.

However, many salaried employees, especially after the screwing they got in 
downsizing, are reluctant to spend more than 40 hours a week on company 
property.  If the employee desiring to have Monday morning off at the 
expense of the company is one of these 40-hour-per-week employees, he/she 
should be turning in a time card.

Another hitch in this mess is that MANY managers are the 40 hour per week 
type and aren't around after 17:00 to see some of these 40+ hour workers.  
If a manager is penalizing one of these extra-hours employees, I don't know 
what to tell you.  He/she probably gives bad performance reviews as well.

    Attendance at work is an important matter.  Talk to your supervisor
    about it.
    
    Mark

    re: .9
    
    >As a side issue, isn't everybody getting tired of hearing the orange
    >book is "only a guide line". Its only a guideline when it benefits
    >management to be a guideline. Policy for a death in the family is three
    >days. being only a guideline do I get 5 days if I feel I need it? 
    >Allowing different interpretations for anything is asking for inequity.
    
    Yep.  I only mentioned it so that someone doesn't get a rude awakening
    if they try to use it as some sort of 'keeper of the truth' document.
    
    Bob
    

RE: .9
    
>As a side issue, isn't everybody getting tired of hearing the orange
>book is "only a guide line". Its only a guideline when it benefits
>management to be a guideline. Policy for a death in the family is three
>days. being only a guideline do I get 5 days if I feel I need it? 
>Allowing different interpretations for anything is asking for inequity.

Yes, in fact you may get more time for a death in the family.  For an 
aunt or uncle, orange book says you get the day of the funeral only.
However, when my mother's twin (my uncle) died, management gave me 
2 1/2 days.  Bottom line is, Digital's practice is to leave it to the
manager to "do the right thing".  If you think the manager is being
biased between employees or is not being fair to you, it's your option
to talk to Human Resources.

Irene

    Here at KYO I call in after 6:00 am and there is a message advising
    either normal hours, delayed opening or building is closed. These
    decissions are discussed amoungst mgmt. If they close or delay the
    opening its outta my hands.

Here at the CSC, even if the building is 'closed' the business has to 
continue.  On these days you either come into the office, dial in from home 
and handle customers from there or take the day off as vacation or without 
pay.

Dave

	re:13

	>Yes, in fact you may get more time for a death in the family.  For an 
	>aunt or uncle, orange book says you get the day of the funeral only.

	I'm not sure I agree with this.  An uncle of mine passed away in 
	November and I took my personal day for the funeral.  Can't find any-
	thing in the orangebook about aunts or uncles.  Just goes to show that
	your mileage definately varies depending on whom you report to.

	As for the afternoon closing of HLO Monday, it should have been closed
	all day.  The E-mail said they were closing so the parking lots could
	be plowed!!  I've heard many different stories about taking sick time,
	vacation time or unpaid time.  Again, it all depends what group you're
	in.
					JT

Re.6 by PLAYER::BOSSARD "Etienne, Eur. SW. Eng. program - 856-7931" >>>

> re: .5
> But where you are today the number of days where snow prevents you to
> reach the office is rather limited ...

Two days in five years: February 6 & 7, 1991.  You probably remember them.

___Pete

re .10

>However, many salaried employees, especially after the screwing they got in 
>downsizing, are reluctant to spend more than 40 hours a week on company 
>property.  If the employee desiring to have Monday morning off at the 
>expense of the company is one of these 40-hour-per-week employees, he/she 
>should be turning in a time card.
>
>Another hitch in this mess is that MANY managers are the 40 hour per week 
>type and aren't around after 17:00 to see some of these 40+ hour workers.  
>If a manager is penalizing one of these extra-hours employees, I don't know 
>what to tell you.  He/she probably gives bad performance reviews as well.

As someone who normally puts in more than 40 hrs, I wonder why we've come 
to accept that.  My paystub says I'm paid for 40.  If I regularly work more 
than 40, then the hourly breakdown is a lie.  If we ALWAYS work a 42 or 45 
or 50 hour week, then maybe it's time to start calling it that and adjust 
our salaries accordingly.  I know I won't be holding my breath for that day 
but maybe the people who insist on 40 hours work for 40 hours pay are right?

			SQ

| As someone who normally puts in more than 40 hrs, I wonder why we've come 
| to accept that.  My paystub says I'm paid for 40.  If I regularly work more 
| than 40, then the hourly breakdown is a lie.  If we ALWAYS work a 42 or 45 
| or 50 hour week, then maybe it's time to start calling it that and adjust 
| our salaries accordingly.  I know I won't be holding my breath for that day 
| but maybe the people who insist on 40 hours work for 40 hours pay are right?

The way I think of it is that you are paid to perform a job. The pay for that
job is X and yields a certain hourly rate if you can complete that job in
40 hours per week. If you need more hours to complete the job it does not
mean the corporation is willing to spend more to get the job done. Likewise,
if your salary is actually propped up by a constant need to work more than
40 hours then your base salary is not correct because it is unfair to require
an employee to work more than 40 hours/week.

Recent years have decreased the market value of many of us which is why we
have to work much harder to even keep what we previously took for granted
at 40 hours/week. I get the impression that more people today, than 5 years
ago, have propped up their salaries with extended hours in part because the
market as a whole wants and GETS more for less these days. People in general
are much more willing to compromise their private life in order to slow
their salary erosion. 

Now, if this is going to be used as a model for input to: can you stay home
on a snow day .. I'd say that the minumum inches on the ground has gone from
2 to 10.

>Per

    Continuing the Rathole:
    Re:
    
>The way I think of it is that you are paid to perform a job. The pay for that
>job is X and yields a certain hourly rate if you can complete that job in
>40 hours per week. If you need more hours to complete the job it does not
>mean the corporation is willing to spend more to get the job done. Likewise,
    
    Yep!  That's what Being Salaried is about.  Not being tied to hours,
    but being tied to tasks.
    
>if your salary is actually propped up by a constant need to work more than
>40 hours then your base salary is not correct because it is unfair to require
>an employee to work more than 40 hours/week.

    True, but remember that salaried people aren't protected by labor laws
    in the U.S.
    
>Recent years have decreased the market value of many of us which is why we
>have to work much harder to even keep what we previously took for granted
>at 40 hours/week. I get the impression that more people today, than 5 years
>ago, have propped up their salaries with extended hours in part because the
>market as a whole wants and GETS more for less these days. People in general
>are much more willing to compromise their private life in order to slow
>their salary erosion. 
    
    I partly agree about market value, but I lean more towards the idea
    that business managers are exploiting their workforce, by placing them
    in salaried positions, when the job is really an hourly job.  No need
    to pay overtime anymore.  More bang for the buck.  Lets face it.  Most
    of us should be either hourly or on commission, and from what I see,
    that's not the case.
    
    As for people willing to spend more personal time to keep the same
    money.  I see more people where I work doing the opposite.
    
    Jim Morton

    Keep in mind that the "Orange Book" is more than a guideline. It
    contains hard and fast policies. Some, which aren't complied with,
    would cause immediate termination. Some if not exercised by mgmt.
    would call for their immediate termination.

Massachusetts salary and wage law says
    
    If you are salaried, the company can't deduct part of a day from your
    pay.  They can deduct a whole day if you take a day off and don't
    charge to vacation or personal holiday.  
    
    For Digital (and this might have changed), if you take that whole day off
    as vacation, personal holiday, or time off without pay, then you put in 
    a time card.  But, if you only take off part of a day then you do not, 
    unless it's for sick time.  
    
    Send mail to CANON::PAY_QUESTION for the official policy on timecards.
                 

    
    	perhaps we should choose homes in locations where there is no snow?
    	:) sorry.. couldn't resist...
    
    
    

    Every day for me is a SNOW day...
    
    You're right Ray...I couldn't resist either :)
    
    Everyone have a safe weekend...
    

    re: .13
    
    Where in the orange book does it say that you get 1 day off for
    the death of an aunt or uncle?  My uncle passed away recently and
    my supervisor would not give me the whole day off. I was expected
    to come to work when the funeral was over.
    
                                                Jill

It doesn't.

The list of which family members are included in the policy is in policy
4.15.  No aunt or uncle.  It must be a parent or step-parent, child,
grandchild, grandparent, sibling or spouse, or a spouse's [grand]parent,
[grand]child, or sibling.

Time off, if any, for an aunt or uncle's funeral is completely up to
management.

/john

    re .4 - About employees choosing to or not to live near work-
    Many of us prefer to live near work.  I lived 10 minutes from work.
    I chose where I worked based on where I lived (I had switched jobs
    when choosing a new home, so that I could be close to home).  Then 
    our office got moved.  Now my commute is an hour.  Not my choice...
    
    When it snows a lot, I come or do not to come to work based on how 
    the roads in our area are.  I will not spend over an hour each way 
    worried about whether there's going to be an accident, etc., to try 
    and come in.  The roads are not taken care of well enough around here 
    for that.  I don't have 4-wheel drive.  I will stay home and log in.  
    Everyone I know has equipment at home and the capability to dial-in 
    and work from home.  I often find working from home a lot more 
    productive than being in the office, with no interruptions.   Once 
    they've had a chance to clean up the roads, etc, then I will try and 
    make it in.
    
    Another issue is that when it snows, there is most often no school or
    day-care.....
    
    According to the orange book, for death in family, 3 consecutive days 
    are given, and it states that additional paid time off is not normally 
    granted.
    

    re: 3 days for a death in the family
    
    Yeah, I know: I flew out (on a last-minute, full-price ticket that I
    could ill afford) to be with my mother the day after my dad died, and I
    had to return home the day BEFORE his burial because of that policy,
    since I wouldn't afford to take more time as unpaid leave.  My mother
    was NOT very pleased.  Not only did she need the moral support, of
    course, but also since she had had back surgery, she needed the HELP.
    Sigh...
    
    /Charlotte

    Re: .28
    
    You may be able to get a partial refund from the airline.  They
    don't advertise it, but some of them offer reduced fares for
    travel because of a death in the family.
    

Ask them about their bereavement policy - most just require the name of the 
deceased and the funeral home.

My condolences on your loss.

Jilly

  Unfortunately, the bereavement rate is not a very good discount.  While 
every bit helps, and it's worth pursuing a refund, last minute travel plans
are very expensive.  And, of course, you are trying to make the travel plans 
when you are not in shape to shop for the best rates.

  I was "lucky" when my dad died last year that my husband was traveling with 
me so we went on a "twofer" with Southwest Air and saved about 650.00.  I was 
amazed that we could actually get to Cleveland, Ohio from San Jose on the no 
frills SWA.  I was also "lucky" that I called AAA travel and talked to an 
agent who went out of his way to find the best rate for us.  Since it was 
just before Christmas, air fares were high and the bereavement rate with the 
major carriers was lousy.  SWA didn't show up on their computer system so he 
had to work directly with them.  I never even thought about their promo offer --
I was too upset to think clearly about anything.

  Sure wish we had a better way to deal with this problem since so many of us 
are isolated from our families and some people just don't have the vacation 
time to use up.  I understand that the corporation doesn't owe us anything, 
but this is a hard one.  Grief over an immediate family member just doesn't 
dissipate in three days.  If anyone who can make a change is listening, the 
least that should change is that someone without vacation time should be able 
to go into the hole on vacation time (within reason) for bereavement so they 
don't have to take time off without pay.

  I hope you are doing better Charlotte.

			SQ

    Dad died ten years ago, unfortuneately, only a few months after he
    retired at age seventy.  Yes, there was a bit of a bereavement
    discount, but the flight still cost a lot more than the normal sort of
    discounted tickets I normally buy.  I didn't have too much choice about
    that since it would take two days to drive to Indiana from
    Massachusetts, and I definitely didn't have time to do that - as I
    said, I had to leave right after the funeral and before the burial in
    order to not be gone from work more than the three days you are
    allowed.  I didn't know when the interment was going to be or I would
    have maybe gone out the following day rather than getting on the next
    flight out of here as soon as I got the dreaded phone call (you don't
    go far from your phone when someone in your family is dying of
    inoperable cancer).  Luckily, my mom is an understanding sort.
    
    /Charlotte                                            

    A therapist or doctor would most likely give you a note for 
    extended recovery time for you after a death of a loved one.
    This would be in the form of sick time or even STD depending
    on your grief process.

    justme....jacqui

    FYI, in my group the engineers all have Digital-owned workstations a
    home -- not the latest stuff, but it works.  As a result, very few of
    us come in if it is snowing -- it's much more pleasant to work at home.
    If we have meetings that day, we generally reschedule them.
    
    Regarding 40 hour weeks, my view is that 40 ought to be the long term
    *average* of the number of hours I work a week.  When the project is
    heavy, I sometimes work night and day.  At other times, I sometimes
    come in rather late, or end up not doing much that is particularly
    effective while I'm here.  I'm fortunately to have a manager who knows
    that he'll get more work out of us by encouraging us on our tasks 
    than by demanding that we put in hours.  For that matter, I'm 
    fortunate to have a group for which that's true.  Of course, if
    I didn't, I would very likely not still be here...
    
    In the final analysis, if our managers are happy with how we handle
    snow days, it doesn't matter what "policy" is.  And if our managers
    aren't happy with what we're doing, "policy" is seldom rigid enough 
    to be an effective tool to defend our position.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    Larry,
    
    I doubt that your manager would back you up on the statement that "it
    doesn't matter what 'policy is.", but I totally agree with you that
    it's between the employee and his/her supervisor.  I hope that the
    person that started this string did have a talk with the boss and came
    to an agreement.
    
    Mark

    February 2,1996
    
    TO:      All Staff
    
    Subj: Inclement Weather Policy
    
    Because we have many new Vice Presidents who have joined us due to
    the large number of casualties incurred during the last few months, I
    thought it best to restate Digital's Inclement Weather Policy.
    
    Basically, the policy is:
    
           1) Our facilities in the greater Maynard area are always open.
           2) You are coming to work.  There is no way you are getting a
              day off with pay.
           3) In the event hell does freeze over you can listen to any
              radio station or watch any television station you please.  
              What you will find out is that hell is closed, but you are
              still coming to work.
    
    Once again we ask you to use your best judgement in determining your
    method of travel.  We suggest ice skates, or perhaps a dogsled (those
    huskies are very sure-footed).  Keep in mind you have the following
    options:
    
          1.  Come to work
          2.  Come to work
          3.  Come to work
    
    Please feel free to whine about the fact that Raytheon, IBM, HP,
    Lockheed-Sanders, Northern Telecom, the government, the World Bank, and
    so on. are closed.  We don't care.  If you have any other questions
    regarding this policy, we suggest that you find employment elsewhere. 
    
    your Management

    I believe you should check with personal about that Monday they
    closed the plant and opened back up for 8pm. Because we were in a
    state of emergency in Worcester County they did not want anyone on
    the "ROADS" some people did get paid for staying home. Makes sense...

    re .35 and my earlier statement that "it doesn't matter what policy is"
    about snow days.
    
    I actually meant that seriously!  Well, mostly.  But consider the 
    following two situations (this assuming that there is an actual 
    snow day policy somewhere):
    
    A)  Policy says that you must come in, but your manager says that
    you can stay home.  So stay home.  It doesn't matter that policy
    says you have to be there -- it your boss is happy, so who is going
    to complain?  Your boss can always just call it "comp time".
    
    B)  Policy says that you can stay home, but your manager says that
    you must come in despite policy.  Your choices here are to stay
    home and risk your manager's wrath, or to come in but file a formal
    complaint that your manager violated policy.  That's a bit hard to
    do, since the Orange Book specifically gives senior management the
    right to re-interpret policy as they see fit!  Unless it's a pretty
    extreme situation, I can't see senior management going against your
    manager's judgement that you were needed at work that day.
    
    So accuse me of being a cynic, but in this case also, I don't see 
    that it really matters what the policy says -- what's important is 
    whether your boss is happy with your work.  That's why I think it 
    is so vitally important that we carefully choose whom we are willing 
    to work for.  I'm not say that policy is useless:  most managers use
    policy to judge whether they are treating their employees fairly or 
    not.  But in the end, it isn't the "policy" that is important, it
    is what our managers choose to do about the policy.
    
    So I repeat: so long as you and your manager agree what to do about
    snow days, it doesn't matter what the policy is.  If you don't agree,
    a written policy won't necessarily help you.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

Well, it looks like some people are being subjected to idiocy w.r.t.
yesterday's snow problems:
    
	[Seen in another conference:]

    	Yesterday afternoon at 3:30, the cost center manager sent
    	out a note stating that anyone who had "chosen" not to come
    	in (it ain't much of a choice when your street is unplowed)
    	had to submit a timecard for four hours of vacation, citing
    	"xxx snow policy".  xxx snow policy states "assume the plant
    	is open, unless a state of emergency has been declared".
    
Of course, the Governor of the state in which the above mentioned plant is
located _did_ formally declare a state of emergency, and the governor and
police were begging people to stay off the roads, and some of us live on
roads that were not plowed until evening or even until today...

Others of us are able to telecommute and don't have to worry about stupidity
as shown by the manager above.

/john

>Others of us are able to telecommute and don't have to worry about stupidity
>as shown by the manager above.
    
    That doesn't always work as well as one would hope; I couldn't raise
    a 28.8 line into ZKO yesterday to save my life. (I did get in at
    9600; hoo boy, talk about living in the dark ages...) Time to get me
    a copy of the tunnel client...

    Won't you run into the same issue even with the tunnel client?
    You might start getting the busy tone from your ISP provider too when
    too many people want to telecommute.
    
    - Vikas

    Well I drove about 140 miles in all that fun, fixing stuff, and I didn't
    hear any crud about closing the office - no cell phone.
    
    .mike.

> Well, it looks like some people are being subjected to idiocy w.r.t.
> yesterday's snow problems:
>    
>        [Seen in another conference:]
> 
>        Yesterday afternoon at 3:30, the cost center manager sent
>        out a note stating that anyone who had "chosen" not to come
>        in (it ain't much of a choice when your street is unplowed)
>        had to submit a timecard for four hours of vacation, citing
>        "xxx snow policy".  xxx snow policy states "assume the plant
>        is open, unless a state of emergency has been declared".
>    
> Of course, the Governor of the state in which the above mentioned plant is
> located _did_ formally declare a state of emergency, and the governor and
> police were begging people to stay off the roads, and some of us live on
> roads that were not plowed until evening or even until today...
> 
> Others of us are able to telecommute and don't have to worry about stupidity
> as shown by the manager above.
> 
> /john

What will it take for many of us to understand terms like mature, responsible, 
grown-up, etc. Do you need a rule for everything?! Do your job and collect your pay, or 
move on. You are not entitled to plowed roads, or states of emergency, or to a job, for 
that matter.

Pete

    hmmm...
    
    part of "mature, responsible, grown-up, etc." probably includes a bit
    of 'give-and-take' on both sides. It used to be that many of us would
    work extra hours, or do other work 'outside' the job spec. just to see
    the job done. And be quite happy about it, knowing that, at times, the
    management would 'cut some slack' when things like a foot of snow
    overnight or some such did happen, and not gripe about 'lost
    productivity', knowing full well that the "grunts" had put in extra
    effort over the previous months or yers.
    
    And as long as the situation wasn't abused, everyone was happy.
    
    Nowadays, it seems that the grunts are expected to keep putting in the
    extra effort, _and_ when it comes time to have some slack - forget it
    sucker - you're paid to do a job, now get in here and do it.
    
    Most grunts turn around and say to themselves, what's the point in
    putting in the extra effort? Morale drops, productivity drops, company
    profits drop, and management keep on with an attitude of "the beatings
    will continue until morale improves".
    
    A few turn around and ignore the twerps running the place, and try to
    get the company back on its feet in _spite_ of management. But it sure
    feels like we're pushing excrement uphill with a sharp stick.
    
    H

    
    	If we'd only gotten a foot of snow I would have gone in, but it
    	was more like two and a half feet.
    
    	Not that that was your point or anything, but I thought it was
    	worth mentioning.
    

Re: .44

> You are not entitled to plowed roads

Well, I do pay taxes, in part in order to have my roads plowed.  I think
I would call that "entitled".

				-Michael

    I am on the Home-alone program. I have my dedicated phone line, my
    PC, all ready to tele-comute.
    
    All I lacked was electric power, for just about 43 hours.
    
    I drove to work (at a customer site) on Wednesday so I could be warm.
    

>> What will it take for many of us to understand terms like mature, responsible, 
>> grown-up, etc. Do you need a rule for everything?! Do your job and collect your
>> pay, or  move on. You are not entitled to plowed roads, or states of emergency,
>> or to a job, for that matter.

I agree; the company should not need a rule about taking vacation time in lieu
of coming in during a snow emergency.  People should be trusted to use their
best judgment, and make up work or telecommute or whatever is necessary to get
the work done if they can't come in.  Issuing a memo requiring people to take
four hours of vacation time is not mature, responsible, or grown-up.

Oh, did you mean it the other way around?  Hmmm...

Some people came in.  Fine.  Some people did not.  Fine.  It's silly to feel
that you have to defend either decision.

						Brian

    ...and those people who DID make it in during the emergency are now
    allowed to take comp time? Where will it end? Why have people in this
    country/company lost the ability to just do the right thing???

    
       re: Mr. Covert
    
       One thing that mey be well worth the effort of checking on for 
    ground to stand on is during a "state of emergency" is your vehicle 
    insurance in effect? 
       Out here in NY when we had the blizzard of 93 they declared a state
    of emergency, and in the state of emergency address people were
    informed that if they drove a vehicle on the road and were involved in 
    an accident their insurance would not be in effect unless they were 
    performing the duties of emergency personell (ie firefighters, EMT's)
       What these managers need to think about is having the facility open
    for 4 hours worth having EVERYONE risk their lives to come to work?
    this situation doesnt happen every week, And I would hope that they
    dont think it would never happen because it does happen. 
    
        					Lee
    

In the case here, the declaration of the state of emergency was for the sole
purpose of allowing unallocated funds to be spent and for the national guard
to be able to help get trees and snow out of the road.

Although the governor and police were asking people to stay off the roads
unless it was an emergency (even Tuesday afternoon), at no time was there
a formal proclamation that the roads were legally closed.

/john

> at no time was there a formal proclamation that the roads were legally closed.

Is this different than the Blizzard of '78?  I lived in Connecticut at the time,
and I think I remember Governor Grasso declaring roads legally closed.  Did that
happen in Massachusetts also?

Paul

    Just to add to John's point...   The state of emergency lasted to
    Wednesday noon at least for the purpose of helping Boston.  North and
    west of Boston the snow was off the roads by late Tuesday.  Where I was
    driving some roads were dry by Tuesday at 5:00.
    
    Jeff

    re: .53
    
    Yes, in 1978 the roads were closed, period.  It was illegal to drive.
    
    On Tuesday there's no way I could have gotten to work until sometime
    after noon anyway, as I couldn't get out of my driveway until late
    morning.  I tried logging in from home and none of the systems I log 
    into were up, so it all seemed pretty pointless to try.

    Subject:       April 1 Exception to Severe Weather Policy -- pls distribute throughout your organization
    
                    ******** THIS MESSAGE IS FROM JOSE RAMIREZ **********
    
    This memo is to advise you that the Company has decided to make an
    exception to the severe weather policy and pay all employees in
    Southern New Hampshire and Eastern Massachusetts for their normal work
    schedule for Tuesday, April 1, 1997.  Timecards should be filled out as
    they normally would, reflecting the employees regular work hours,
    unless the employee was ill or on vacation.
    
    This decision was made for the following reasons:
    
    1.     The severe weather conditions made it impossible and was of such
    an unusual nature that attendance at work was difficult at best for
    most of our employees.
    
    2.     There was obvious confusion relative to the State of Emergency
    announcement made by the Governor of Massachusetts.
    
    3.     The 800-DIGITAL number had a message for a limited period of
    time stating that the company operations were closed for the day.
    
    Feel free to distribute this message to those you deem appropriate.  We
    have also taken the step of notifying U.S. Payroll.
    
    If you have any questions feel free to contact me at 223-9584, or John
    Murphy at 223-9590.
    
    Best Regards,
    
    Jose

re Note 4355.53 by FUNYET::ANDERSON:

> > at no time was there a formal proclamation that the roads were legally closed.
> 
> Is this different than the Blizzard of '78?  I lived in Connecticut at the time,
> and I think I remember Governor Grasso declaring roads legally closed.  

        It used to seem that at any given time (and any time of year)
        at least half of the roads in Connecticut were "legally
        closed."

        Bob

> at no time was there a formal proclamation that the roads were legally closed.

     maybe not, but my neighbor tells me that the police in Waltham, MA were
     issuing tickets Tuesday morning and early afternoon to anyone that was
     getting in the way of snow removal unless you were going to an "essental"
     job (like nurse, fireman, etc.)

     Deb

re .57,

> It used to seem that at any given time (and any time of year) at least half of
> the roads in Connecticut were "legally closed."

Ah yes, the old "put up the orange sign because we're doing construction and see
if motorists can read the fine print about how the road is legally closed and
the state's not responsible" trick!  I wonder if anyone ever read the sign and
turned around because of it.

This is similar to the fine print on car ads on TV.

Paul

    In the wake of the '78 storm the roads were indeed officially closed to 
    all but emergency personnel. The emergency order was accompanied by
    clear threat of arrest if violated by mere citizens...
    
    As luck would have it - and with the airport closed - I had to make a
    trip through that mess down to a federal account in New York to bail
    out an installation that had gone bad, the company I worked for
    contacted the Governor's office and they suggested the President of my
    company draft a memo to the effect that this was a GSA account, we were
    the GSA supplier, and therefore my trip should be considered
    "essential", with the full weight of the fed behind it...
    
    (I often wonder if that would have kept me out of jail if challenged)
    
    Anyway, with that memo in hand I slip-slided my way down to NYC, saved
    the account from being tossed, then slip-slided my way back home. With
    nary a blink from the occasional Statey I passed in either direction...
    
    fwiw: At that time I was driving a new 280Z - not exactly a road
    warrier  under those conditions. When I got home the accumulated
    tension broke so hard I slept for two days...
    
    /dave (Ah - to be so young and stupid again that I'd risk my *ss for any
    company ;^)

    Did any management actually receive that memo from Jose? No one
    I know of in the SBU M&D has seen it (including the VP).
    
    Chip

    re: .52 & .54
    
    The roads were legally closed as a result of the declaration, and any 
    police officer could have impounded your vehicle, and arrested you if
    you were out as a "non-essential" worker, (Red Cross, telephone
    company, power company, police, fire, medical) for violating the same.
    
    In Worcester County, "state of emergency" was lifted at Noon on
    Wednesday, not Tuesday.
    
    It's a judgement call on the part of the police to enforce it. In the
    Blizzard of '78, it was stricly enforced, and the National Guard was
    also utilized to transport people from impound lots to local shelters
    that were processing the papperwork.
                                        

>    The roads were legally closed as a result of the declaration

No they were not.  In 1978 they were, this time they were not.

Repeatedly it was explained that the sole purpose of the state of emergency
was to allow unallocated funds to be spent and to allow the national guard
to help with the cleanup.

If you can provide a written document backing up your claim, please do so.

/john

re the police in Waltham

I wonder by what authority they were issuing the tickets.

Sounds like one of those "I heard such-and-such" stories.

Produce an actual ticket with the actual charge and circumstances
surrounding the same, please.

/john

In Ohio, we have levels of snow emergencies. Level 3 lands you and your 
vehicle in custody. Level 2 is something like it's only safe for 4WD 
vehicles, and Level 1 is please be very careful.

We had this situation last year. Level 3 was declared for our area. The 
office wasn't officially closed, but most of us weren't willing to break 
the law and risk landing in jail for Digital.

    >Sounds like one of those "I heard such-and-such" stories.
    
    >Produce an actual ticket with the actual charge and circumstances
    >surrounding the same, please.
    
    John, 
    
    Since I wasn't out driving (my car was under a lot of snow and a large
    maple limb), I can't produce a ticket. But as I was out shoveling in the
    morning, my neighbor, a retired cop, came back from a walk to the corner
    store and told me that the police were giving tickets. 
    
    The guy across the street got his car shoveled out, took off for work
    and came back in less than 10 minutes. He didn't tell me this but I
    heard that he was told to turn back or he was going to be ticketed. 
    
    I don't know by "what authority" they were issuing tickets, but I
    suspect that it might have been something like impeding snow removal.
    
    Deb

    
    	I wasn't aware that Massachusetts had different levels of state of
    emergency's.  Once one is declared the state of emergency exists. 
    Whether they choose to enforce the no driving part is another story.

    Joe

>    Whether they choose to enforce the no driving part is another story.

Let's make this perfectly clear:

In Massachusetts, there was no "no driving part" to the state of emergency
that was declared this Tuesday.

The governor authorized a state of emergency which allowed unallocated funds
to be spent and allowed the national guard to help in the cleanup.

It may have authorized other things, but one thing this particular state of
emergency _DID_NOT_DO_ is prohibit driving at any time on any state road.

If you have written evidence to the contrary, please submit it.  I have the
supposedly straight poop from an official representative of the governor to
whom I was referred when I called the governor's office.

Have you got anything other than your own opinion?

/john

        RE: -1

    John I don't think (at least not me) anybody is arguing what the
    intention of the state of emergency was, it allowed unallocated funds
    to be spent and allowed the national guard to help in the cleanup.  I 
    think the argument is that a state of emergency is a STATE OF EMERGENCY 
    and it covers many things.  Some things they choose to put on the front 
    burners and some on the back.  Now that's how I understand it and I have 
    the same nameless and unwritten source you have.  All you can offer is 
    opinion like the rest of us.

    Joe

>I think the argument is that a state of emergency is a STATE OF EMERGENCY 
>and it covers many things.

So present something real, other than just your opinion, to support
that argument.  What defines a "state of emergency" other than the
proclamation issued by the governor?  What makes it cover more than
what the governor's office says it covers?  Tell us.

I have presented the statement from the governor's office.  That is not
"just my opinion," that is an official spokesperson.  I could get a name
on Monday, but I think it's your turn.

You claim to have the same nameless source, and I claim you are not telling
the truth and have not called anyone.  Why don't you take the time to make
a phone call to the governor's office.

Your move.

/john

Oh, and I just reconfirmed this with MEMA state HQ at 508-820-2000.

The dispatcher said I might be able to get a copy of the actual emergency
proclamation on Monday and gave me the name of the Ops Officer.

He laughed when I read him your notes.

/john

    
    	John, how about the official wording of the "State of Emergency"
    	law/statute, if there is such a thing?  Does MA define it in any
    	way?
    
    	I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the intent of this state
    	of emergency, but Joe does have a point in that any official
    	wording containing "driving is prohibited" would make that part
    	of the law, whether that was the intent of the proclamation or
    	not.
    
    	And if that is the case, maybe "State of Emergency" was not the
    	correct proclamation for this situation.
    

    
    	Well, just as a point of interest, here's what Florida says.
    
    	(k) would be the relevant part, but I left the rest in just in
    	case someone cares.
    
    
    
    (4) During the continuance of a state of emergency, the Governor is
    commander in chief of the Florida National Guard and of all other
    forces available for emergency duty. To the greatest extent
    practicable, the Governor shall delegate or assign command authority by
    prior arrangement embodied in appropriate executive orders or rules,
    but nothing herein restricts the Governor's authority to do so by
    orders issued at the time of the emergency. 
    
    (5) In addition to any other powers conferred upon the Governor by law,
    she or he may: 
    
    (a) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory statute prescribing the
    procedures for conduct of state business or the orders or rules of any
    state agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any such
    statute, order, or rule would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay
    necessary action in coping with the emergency. 
    
    (b) Utilize all available resources of the state government and of each
    political subdivision of the state, as reasonably necessary to cope
    with the emergency. 
    
    (c) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of state
    departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing
    or facilitating emergency services. 
    
    (d) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation under s.
    252.43, commandeer or utilize any private property if she or he finds
    this necessary to cope with the emergency. 
    
    (e) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population
    from any stricken or threatened area within the state if she or he
    deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other
    emergency mitigation, response, or recovery. 
    
    (f) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destinations in
    connection with evacuation. 
    
    (g) Control ingress and egress to and from an emergency area, the
    movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises
    therein. 
    
    (h) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of
    alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles. 
    
    (i) Make provision for the availability and use of temporary emergency
    housing. 
    
    (j) Take effective measures for limiting or suspending lighting devices
    and appliances, gas and water mains, electric power distribution, and
    all other utility services in the general public interest. 
    
    (k) Take measures concerning the conduct of civilians, the movement and
    cessation of movement of pedestrian and vehicular traffic prior to,
    during, and subsequent to drills and actual or threatened emergencies,
    the calling of public meetings and gatherings, and the evacuation and
    reception of civilian population, as provided in the emergency
    management plan of the state and political subdivisions thereof.
    

RE:           <<< Note 4355.67 by FABSIX::J_RILEY "Legalize Freedom" >>>

    
>>    	I wasn't aware that Massachusetts had different levels of state of
>>    emergency's.  Once one is declared the state of emergency exists. 
               ^
    
    Ye Gods,,,
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

re .73

Note that the Florida law does not automatically shut down all the roads;
it gives the governor the power to regulate their use, but does not simply
close them.  For (k) to take effect, the governor would have to make some
sort of proclamation or announcement about such regulation.

/john

            RE: .70

>So present something real, other than just your opinion, to support
>that argument.  What defines a "state of emergency" other than the
>proclamation issued by the governor?  What makes it cover more than
>what the governor's office says it covers?  Tell us.

    If opinion is good enough for you it's good enough for me.  I have no
    idea what defines a state of emergency and never said I did.

>I have presented the statement from the governor's office.  That is not
>"just my opinion," that is an official spokesperson.  I could get a name
>on Monday, but I think it's your turn.

    Gee an unnamed source in the governor's office where have I heard that.

>You claim to have the same nameless source, and I claim you are not telling
>the truth and have not called anyone.  Why don't you take the time to make
>a phone call to the governor's office.

    When I said the same nameless source it was meant figuratively as one
    nameless person is as good as the next for this I must apologize I
    should have made myself clearer.     

>Your move.

    I've read many of your notes before my only mistake this time was
    replying to one.  Go ahead and take one last shot at call me a liar
    again, whatever makes you happy as this is my last reply on this
    matter.

    Joe

    
    	RE: .75
    
    	Yup, I realize that.  The wording is very clear on that matter.
    

>
>    Gee an unnamed source in the governor's office where have I heard that.
>

Are you a complete and utter idiot?  

I called the governor's office and asked the question.  I was transferred
to an aide.  I did not bother to take the name of the aide, because I didn't
think I'd run into the likes of you.

I wasn't given "secret" information of the kind "unnamed sources" provide.
I am quite certain that if anyone else called the governor's office they
would get the same answer.

On Monday I will endeavor to get a copy of the actual proclamation and
an official statement from the Massachusetts Energy Management Agency.

/john

    
    	Would someone please pass the popcorn?  Thanks.
    

>    	Would someone please pass the popcorn?  Thanks.
    
And a large soda would be nice too! :*)

    >And a large soda would be nice too! :*)
    
    ...and while yer up, would ya mind changing the channel?  This show
    sucks.
    
    

>    ...and while yer up, would ya mind changing the channel?  This show
>    sucks.
    
    Do you have a source for that?  At no time did the governor announce
    that it sucks.  ;-)

    So, were the roads in Mass. closed or what?
    
    many ->  8-)'s
    
    I just couldn't resist (but I probably should have lest I
    be called an idiot as well)

    
    	Some of them were, due to fallen trees, but officially they were
    	open.
    
    	However, I know that's not what you meant.
    
    

    
    
    	The horse is dead.
    
    	Can we stop beating it now?
    

>    	The horse is dead.
>    
>    	Can we stop beating it now?

Neigh!

    
    	Wow, I don't believe I missed that.
    

    reign it in, people.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

>    	Wow, I don't believe I missed that.

Camouflaged by all of the snow.
A horse of a differen color would have been more visible.

>    reign it in, people.
    
    A noble steed indeed.

>>    reign it in, people.

>> Camouflaged by all of the snow.
>> A horse of a differen color would have been more visible.

A horse that stays out in the snow too long turns blue, which is definitely a
different color.  If its blood turns blue as well, it must become royalty,
which is why you would need to reign it in instead of needing to rein it in.
Now it all becomes clear.  (My kingdom for a horse?)

						Brian

    Exactly. Now that it's understood. can we put a halter to this string
    for a bit? It's a cinch that I'm tired of hearing about snow.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ(Who's feeling his oats today)

    PJ,
    
    You know you're just spurring them on.  Now get the bit out of your teeth
    and come back down to earth and snow days, or flood days or whatever is
    coming our way next.
    
    meg

    Oh no, Meg. I'm not getting saddled with this one. Besides, I'm sure
    there are others who could get more horsepower out of this string.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

re: all

My apologies to all for starting this...  I did not realize how fragile
the normal/pun conversation boundary was....

    
    	Yeah, I didn't expect this one bit, manely because I figured that
    	DIGITAL readers were beyond this sort of stuff.
    

    It's easy to Trigger this kind of exchange, though it would be
    better if each pun were only used once (hint: "bit" has been USED
    already).

RE: .97

	And that is coming straight from the horses mouth..

	Of course, this isn't a race to the finish, is it? I'll
	bet it is, of course, of course...

							mike

    RE .97 What a nag.  :-)
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    "cough,cough!" My throat is getting hoarse and this string could give
    someone night mares.

    I'll take that last one personally!  :-)
    

    	Had to do a double take - thought I was in ::soapbox.
    
    joyce

    -1 ditto
    
       Chip

    re .102
    
    You mean we have to trot on over to Soapbox to see more lame strings
    like this?

*groan!!!!

    .104 Evidently not.
    
         Chip

    I think we can quit horsing around. We need to back on the track and
    that's a sure bet.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

I think you've all been looking at this the wrong way.

I mean, after all, the company did pay for the day off
(albeit with some confusion in the process)
They finally got around to doing the right thing.
We just need to work on doing it sooner and cleaner next time.

So, why look a gift horse in the mouth???

RE: .108

	(I can't believe I'm continuing this)

	I think some people are bothered at the first reaction
	of some people in upper managment to the snow day. Some
	may even accuse them of "robbing a horse".

	But now we know that they were just horse-ing around.

	And that ain't no hay.

							mike

    Everybody stop it and go to your rooms right now.
    
    Continuing this sequence of horse puns is just making fodder for
    further unbridled replies.
    
    				-John

>    Continuing this sequence of horse puns is just making fodder for
>    further unbridled replies.

Stop it, or I'll tell your mudders.  They still live in filly, right?

You need the soapbox to hold the road apples this conference sometimes 
generates.

/jon

    Gee, the last few dozen notes make me pine for the previous vitriolic
    exchanges/charges.
    
    

	Actually, I think the replies threw a shoe a while back and
	went lame..

								mike

    We should take a gallop poll of who is still reading this note.
      -- or did all the chaps stampede for the door?
    

    hahahahahahaha
    
    stop it please!
    
    I'm almost choking on my lunch!
    
    :') :'D :'D
    
    H

    
    	Eating colt cuts?
    

    As someone mentioned, road apples are fine and are always conveniently
    in season. Of course, your field muffins and a variety of chips not
    withstanding.
    
    Chip

I think we've let this run its course...

			Steve