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Conference 7.286::digital

Title:	The Digital way of working

Moderator:	QUARK::LIONELON

Created:	Fri Feb 14 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	5321
Total number of notes:	139771

4837.0. "Enough PostScript, already." by FOUNDR::CRAIG () Tue Sep 10 1996 12:24

Is it me, or is there an ever-increasing fascination with the use of 
PostScript (generated by MS Word) for the simplest of documents in this 
company?  When I get something in PostScript I expect there to be a 
business reason for it, such as the requirement for graphics or special 
formatting, because I either have to print it to view it, or use showps on 
my Unix workstation if I'm lucky enough to be in my office, or I suppose I 
could break down and buy a copy of RoPS for my PC at work and one for my 
home PC.  I don't have a PostScript printer at home.  

Additionally, PostScript is not searchable in cases where the recipient
wants to reference something from the past to find a particular occurrence
of an ascii string and not lose its context.   It has to printed and
searched by eye. 

Sending out .DOC files doesn't make sense for the simple documents either, 
because those files are fat from having to haul around all kinds of 
formatting information that's not required to convey the basic message, and
if the reader or recipient doesn't happen to have the companion application
(correct version, too, for the particular document), then s/he is out of
luck. 

Anyway, the choice of application used to generate simple documents appears 
in many cases to be driven solely by what the originator chooses to
consider as his/her tool rather than by a view towards the true
requirements of the document regarding formatting and distribution.

The absolute worst case I've seen was a multi-KB mail message I received 
recently -- I printed it on a PostScript printer, and what did I see?  Five 
lines comprising an upcoming meeting agenda.  Sheesh!

Does anyone else agree this is getting a little out of hand?

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
4837.1	Right on .0	ESSC::KMANNERINGS		`Tue Sep 10 1996 13:20`	12
	YES YES YES !! The bug for me is that you can't search them. The SOC is an example, but even pc sw descriptions are only available in .PS. This wastes hours of time. I have a little procedure which copies spd's to a local disk so they can be searched quickly, the net is TOO slow. I find I can answer a lot of customer queries just by using a vms search. Is there any quick and dirty way to convert them to text ? Kevin
4837.2		PLAYER::BROWNL	Well, perhaps just a wafer-thin mint...	`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:19`	6
	YES! YES! YES! I don't even have a PC to put the shareware PS viewers on, and I have no way of looking at them on my VXT2000. Cheers, Laurie.
4837.3		HERON::KAISER		`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:20`	5
	> Is there any quick and dirty way to convert them to text ? On UNIX, pstotext (which uses Ghostscript) is one. There are others. ___Pete
4837.4		HERON::KAISER		`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:20`	305
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ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff showpage end origstate restore %%Trailer
4837.6	Ghostscript!	HERON::KAISER		`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:25`	5
	Laurie, I believe there's a version of Ghostscript for VMS. That would do it for your VXT2000. (Thanks, Larry Cabrinetty, for all the good things the VXT2000 brought us, like Display PostScript. Not.) ___Pete
4837.7		PLAYER::BROWNL	Well, perhaps just a wafer-thin mint...	`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:26`	4
	Yeah, I tried that, but it died because it neeed something else which isn't part of EASE. I forget the specifics. Cheers, Laurie.
4837.8		HELIX::SONTAKKE		`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:27`	31
	RE: .3 There are still quite a few .PS files which can not be converted using pstotext. - Vikas P.S. For example, try the .4 file :-) P.P.S. This is the unix script #!/bin/sh -f # Extract ASCII text from a PostScript file. Usage: # ps2ascii [infile.ps [outfile.txt]] # If outfile is omitted, output goes to stdout. # If both infile and outfile are omitted, ps2ascii acts as a filter, # reading from stdin and writing on stdout. if ( test $# -eq 0 ) then gs -q -dNODISPLAY -dNOBIND -dWRITESYSTEMDICT -dSIMPLE ps2ascii.ps - -c q uit elif ( test $# -eq 1 ) then gs -q -dNODISPLAY -dNOBIND -dWRITESYSTEMDICT -dSIMPLE ps2ascii.ps $1 -c quit else gs -q -dNODISPLAY -dNOBIND -dWRITESYSTEMDICT -dSIMPLE ps2ascii.ps $1 -c quit >$2 fi
4837.9		HERON::KAISER		`Tue Sep 10 1996 14:35`	5
	> P.S. For example, try the .4 file :-) There's no text in that file. But I imagine you knew that. ;-) ___Pete
4837.10		BUSY::SLAB	Forget the doctor - get me a nurse!	`Tue Sep 10 1996 15:16`	6
	RE: .2 Isn't there a viewer on the VXT2000 that will load a .PS file so you can read, if not export, it? CDA Viewer, maybe?
4837.11		RTL::DAHL		`Tue Sep 10 1996 15:17`	7
	RE: <<< Note 4837.10 by BUSY::SLAB "Forget the doctor - get me a nurse!" >>> > Isn't there a viewer on the VXT2000 that will load a .PS file > so you can read, if not export, it? CDA Viewer, maybe? The CDA viewed can definitely display PostScript files. -- Tom
4837.12	PostScript is old hat, at least PDF is smaller :-)	BBPBV1::WALLACE	Unix is digital. Use Digital UNIX.	`Tue Sep 10 1996 15:28`	6
	But in order to do so it requires the Display PostScript extension to X, which not all X displays have (it contains code licensed from Adobe, I think). The VT1300 certainly didn't. I don't know if the VXT2000 did. regards john
4837.13	display not enough	ESSC::KMANNERINGS		`Tue Sep 10 1996 15:35`	2
	a display is not enough. This is about searching very long texts in a few seconds for key-words.
4837.14		DSNENG::KOLBE	Wicked Wench of the Web	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:13`	3
	I think a worse problem than searching is the plain hassle factor. Most memos don't require postscript or any other fancy format. What ever happened to KISS? liesl
4837.15		PLAYER::BROWNL	Well, perhaps just a wafer-thin mint...	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:13`	7
	RE; .12 That's it! The CDA viewer, and load of extensions I don't have access to. As someone said earlier .PDF is smaller, faster and better, runs on VMS, but doesn't solve the search problem, which is fundamental. Cheers, Laurie.
4837.16		STAR::KLEINSORGE	Fred Kleinsorge	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:35`	3
	Make everything HTML and get on with things.
4837.17		SMURF::PBECK	It takes a Village: you're No. 6	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:35`	8
	Certainly not a new problem. I remember instigating a fight (er, discussion) with the Phase V architecture team about putting specs out in Postscript only, since I wanted the developers to be able to cut and paste network management attribute names directly from the specs into the implementation (avoiding transcription errors). A compromise was reached (primary specs in PS, copies sans diagrams in a searchable .. though not very readable .. text format). This was seven or eight years ago.
4837.18		KAOM25::WALL	DEC Is Digital	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:40`	8
	Gee. I thought the DECwrite .doc format would create something that could be typed like text and still had the graphical descriptors hidden somehow. Maybe we should try and get MS and Corel to support the DEC DOC format. [$1 per license.] r
4837.19		NUBOAT::HEBERT	Captain Bligh	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:41`	5
	Re: .15: You can search PDF files with Acrobat. And you can select text and cut to the clipboard; and print one page, a range of pages, or the whole document. Art
4837.20	Tower of Babel for the 90's	WHOS01::ELKIND	Steve Elkind, Digital SI @WHO	`Tue Sep 10 1996 16:45`	8
	The Tower of Babel is affecting my customer as well. I get lots of mail from other divisions with Word, PPT, or XLS attachments which I can't view on my HP-UX workstation there (all the tech people in the group have HP-UX or Solaris workstations). Of course, I reply in kind - I need to use FrameMaker (which the whole division uses, even on PCs) to create my own documents, so I'm sending these people in the other divisions .PS files (which most of the recipients don't know how to actually print on their shared PS printers).
4837.21	serves them right :-)	HELIX::SONTAKKE		`Tue Sep 10 1996 17:02`	3
	Which is even better because most postscript previwer and some of the printers can not handle the postscript files generated by the Framemaker.
4837.22		BUSY::SLAB	GTI 16V - dust thy neighbor!!	`Tue Sep 10 1996 17:11`	6
	RE: .13 .2 said there was no way to view the files. I had a suggestion and I posted it.
4837.23		ATLANT::SCHMIDT	See http://atlant2.zko.dec.com/	`Tue Sep 10 1996 17:19`	8
	> Re: .15: You can search PDF files with Acrobat. ============ I've underlined the key words here. Some of us would rather grep across more than just Acrobat files at one time or use a tool other than Acrobat to do it. Atlant
4837.24	DDIF Files and RMS Semantig Tag Processing	RTL::DAHL		`Tue Sep 10 1996 18:00`	16
	RE: <<< Note 4837.18 by KAOM25::WALL "DEC Is Digital" >>> > Gee. I thought the DECwrite .doc format would create something that > could be typed like text and still had the graphical descriptors hidden > somehow. Right. DECwrite uses DDIF (Digital Document Interchange Format). On VMS systems, disk files have a 'semantic tag' attribute which can be used to identify the format in which the file's content is encoded. DDIf files typically have their semantic tag set to "DDIF." RMS has limited support such that when such a tagged file is opened for normal sequential record reading, RMS filters through the DDIF to find the text elements (if any) stored within the file. These text elements are returned as the effective records of the file. This allows most VMS utilities such as TYPE, SEARCH, etc. to process DDIF files fairly effectively. -- Tom
4837.25	up with ASCII!	LGP30::FLEISCHER	without vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1)	`Tue Sep 10 1996 22:22`	14
	re Note 4837.0 by FOUNDR::CRAIG: > Is it me, or is there an ever-increasing fascination with the use of > PostScript (generated by MS Word) for the simplest of documents in this > company? It's really deja vu "all over again" -- as soon as the first PostScript printers were available, in the early 80's, people started sending PostScript by Email (probably created by VAX Document then). For what seemed like the longest time my group had no access to a PostScript printer (and Display PostScript was a distant dream). Bob
4837.26	PS2TEXT	HERON::virenq.vbo.dec.com::HEMMINGS	Lanterne Rouge	`Wed Sep 11 1996 12:18`	3
	FWIW, there's a few files in IDEFIX::DK2$DIA2:[HEMMINGS.PUBLIC] starting with PS2* which you may find useful.
4837.27		HELIX::SONTAKKE		`Wed Sep 11 1996 12:57`	5
	Has anybody build a latest version of it supporting Windoes postscript driver, win95 postscript driver, winnt postscript driver, framemake, dvi2ps etc. etc. - Vikas
4837.28	see ROCKS::UK_DIGITAL 528.*	NETCAD::ROLKE	Interrupt Driven Herefords	`Wed Sep 11 1996 13:34`	1
	titled "Ban Postscript". It looks much like this note. -Chuck
4837.29		R2ME2::DEVRIES	Mark DeVries	`Wed Sep 11 1996 20:14`	13
	> Has anybody build a latest version of it supporting Windoes > postscript driver, win95 postscript driver, winnt postscript driver, > framemake, dvi2ps etc. etc. Assuming that "it" is ps2text, the latest version (two years old) reads Windows PSCRIPT, but not the other things you mentioned. See the announcement in: ONTIME::POSTSCRIPT_PRINTING note 2092.54 I announced the kit, but other people did the work. -Mark
4837.30	MONKEY MONKEY	ESSC::KMANNERINGS		`Fri Sep 13 1996 10:26`	18
4837.31	Monkey! Get thee hence!	BBRDGE::LOVELL		`Fri Sep 13 1996 11:18`	11
4837.32	Self help is the best help	ESSC::KMANNERINGS		`Fri Sep 13 1996 11:28`	3
4837.33	One vote in favor...	WKOL10::STETSON	Think Digital Software!	`Fri Sep 13 1996 12:27`	12
4837.34		HELIX::SONTAKKE		`Fri Sep 13 1996 13:43`	9
4837.35		BUSY::SLAB	Dogbert's New Ruling Class: 135K	`Fri Sep 13 1996 14:43`	3
4837.36	:-)	HELIX::SONTAKKE		`Fri Sep 13 1996 14:45`	1
4837.37	One vote for Postscript...	GTJAIL::MARTIN	Out to Lunch	`Sun Sep 15 1996 12:41`	2
4837.38		FOUNDR::CRAIG		`Sun Sep 15 1996 14:37`	1
4837.39		HERON::KAISER		`Mon Sep 16 1996 08:57`	9
4837.40	Is an LN03R a security hole then ?	BBPBV1::WALLACE	Unix is digital. Use Digital UNIX.	`Mon Sep 16 1996 10:35`	8
4837.41		HERON::KAISER		`Mon Sep 16 1996 13:57`	5
4837.42		BUSY::SLAB	Form feed = <ctrl>v <ctrl>l	`Mon Sep 16 1996 14:28`	7
4837.43		R2ME2::DEVRIES	Mark DeVries	`Mon Sep 16 1996 15:10`	12