Conference 7.286::digital

    This company thinks it's costly and time-consuming to cut an advanced
    check for it's vacationing employees?  All 3.5 percent of them???
    
    I suppose holding a gun to the heads of the 3.5 percent and saying
    "you want direct deposit, don't you?" would have been just as
    effective.  But then there's all that travel pay that would have been
    incurred to reach them.
    
    Still, I would have had much more respect for an honest message that
    simply said, "We want full enrollment in the direct deposit program,
    and advance vacation checks are just a pain in the neck for us.  So,
    since there are only 3.5 percent of you out there...too bad...so sad,
    but no more advance pay for you.  Hope you have a credit card, ATM
    card, or lots of vacation money stashed away somewhere."
    

    What they didn't answer was how I pay my bills, get money if I am
    out of state, out of country on vacation.
    Next step monthly paychecks.
    
    Oh well, don't complain, we still have a job will yet another
    reduction in compensation.
    

    If you have direct deposit to a bank that offers ATM service (nearly
    all banks) you can get your $$ that way.  Even out of country in many
    cases.

Re:  <<< Note 2934.1 by SMURF::WALLACE "Life's a beach, then you dive!" >>>

>    Still, I would have had much more respect for an honest message that
>    simply said, "We want full enrollment in the direct deposit program,
>    and advance vacation checks are just a pain in the neck for us.  

I think you've missed the point.  Direct deposit and advance vacation pay are 
not mutually exclusive.  It was a way you could receive by your normal means of 
being paid *all* your vacation pay in advance of the vacation.  I guess it's 
another matter of cost of processing and loss of interest vs. the real benefit 
of it.

It seems that not too many people thought it was a worthwhile benefit so why 
devote resources to it?

-  David

   > What they didn't answer was how I pay my bills, get money if I am
   > out of state, out of country on vacation.
   > Next step monthly paychecks.
   
   Why should they? Quite frankly, how you choose to pay your bills is
   not their problem. Paying you "on time" is.

    Well, I have direct deposit and as one of the 3.5%, I took early
    vacation pay so we would have the vacation spending money.
    
    Oh well.  Guess we have to budget better next time - luckily I can
    still do this for my April vacation plans!!
    
    -sandy
    

    Sorry but 3000 people is 3000 people!  Never mind the "small
    percentage".
    
    ! Because of this and in an effort to simplify the payroll process and
    ! eliminate costly, time-consuming pay adjustments, the last time .....
    
    Another example of manual labor where an on-line system could automate
    the whole thing.
    
    My take; another benefit down the tubes!
    

As an individual who has and wishes to continue to receive live checks this
message from payroll is another in a long string of payroll strategies that
I feel have been implemented to coerce those like me into direct deposit.

For those of you who so ardently defend direct deposit I want you to understand
what it means to me, and maybe others like me.  To me direct deposit, although
convenient, is another surrender of personal freedom in our application of
technology today and tommorrow.  Direct deposit is a banking strategy that
to me, creates an enslavement on the part of the individual to a specific
bank.  Because I receive a live check, without having to deal with any
paper work at work, I have the freedom to take my banking business any where
I want, when I want.  With direct deposit, should I choose to change my
banking vendor, I have to go through another layer of channels to exercise
my rights as a consumer.  Direct deposit to me is another insidious way
of my money not being my money.

I know the world is changing, I know technology marches forward, but I
am concerned about the personal freedoms we are so unwittingly surrendering
in the name of progress.  I know about the futurist theories where there will 
be no such thing as cash, but I also know that for there to be no such thing
as cash there is a loss of personal privacy, autonomy, and available options
for how I choose to do things.

I have expressed my frustration with this latest attempt to force me into
direct deposit to personnel and to the payroll manager.  I doubt it will
do any good, and I will continue to receive a live check until it is no
longer a choice.  If I resist long enough maybe my issues will be dealt with
by technology in a way I can accept.  

    re .8  Well said!!  I am another who plans on keeping my 'live check'
    option until it is no longer available.
    
    I sent a response to the payroll office also.  I asked if they had
    plans to institute an advance vacation option for direct deposit
    accounts.

Jeeze, get a grip, folks.

Life's entirely too short to get so worked up over something so simple.

    I'm annoyed that I don't get paid in cash by my manager every
    afternoon!

    RE: .5
     > What they didn't answer was how I pay my bills, get money if I am
       > out of state, out of country on vacation.
       > Next step monthly paychecks.
    
      > Why should they? Quite frankly, how you choose to pay your bills is
      > not their problem. Paying you "on time" is.
        
    Well excuse me, but your vacation pay belongs to you and is due you
    once it is on the books. This money is owed, as an account payable,
    its been earned and is NOT "advanced pay". Sounds like this was your 
    idea the way your defending it?

This is ludicrous.

How about saying "I'll do whatever I can to save my employer some
money" by switching to direct deposit? Is this really all some of you
concern yourselves with?  Sheesh...  I am watching somewhere around 50
of my coworkers leave today for the last time, and you people are
fighting windmills.

Have you seen Saturday Night Live where Dana Carvey (sp?) is a maitre
de (also sp?) and tells most people to "take it outside ... take it
outside".

Take it outside ... take it outside.

Pete

    Another reason to get advanced vacation pay, even IF you direct deposit
    normally, is it allows you to buy travelers checks before you go on
    vacations.   I find this preferable, especially for international
    travel, than carrying my check book or attempting to use an ATM.
    
    My most exciting try at using an ATM was in a one ATM town, after bank
    closing, and the ATM was busted AND I was out of money.  I would have
    bought supper in that town, except the local diner didn't take charges.
    
    Extream, yes.  Does it happen, yes, probably too frequently.
    
    
    I would really prefer to have the balances set up, for paying bills,
    and the travelers checks in hand before I leave for four or five weeks.
    Onw week, or so, yes you can do by budget.  I wouldn't use this optin
    for less than three weeks on the road.
    
    Bill
    

    Last year I was up in Quebec for three weeks. I had my three weeks
    advance pay already in my checking account, so I knew what I had to
    spend. With this new policy, I will have to hope my boss remembers
    to turn in my vacation time cards while I'm away, or I won't get paid.
    If he is on vacation, I'll have to hope his side-kick remembers to turn
    them in.

    Jim

Re:<<< Note 2934.15 by PCCAD::RICHARDJ "Country Dancing = Redneck Aerobics" >>>

>	With this new policy, I will have to hope my boss remembers
>    to turn in my vacation time cards while I'm away, or I won't get paid.
>    If he is on vacation, I'll have to hope his side-kick remembers to turn
>    them in.

It wasn't clear to me from .0 whether timecards turned in in advance will be
held by the manager until the appropriate date or held at payroll until the
appropriate date.  If you have a concern, you might want to check on that.

.0>   Questions regarding this change may be directed via vaxmail to 
.0>   CANON::PAY_QUESTION or via A-1 to PAY_QUESTION @PKO.

-  David

Good grief.

I know that people don't want to hear this, but I need to say
it anyway.  If your savings are so sparse and your budget so
tight that you need your vacation pay just to pay for your
vacation and current bills, then you can't afford your vacation.  
Especially not an international vacation.

I've used the advance vacation pay - not because I needed it, but just
to get the benefit of the float.  I've also spent some vacations
doing cheap stuff, so that I would have the money to spend on a
subsequent, more expensive vacation.  If that's a problem for you,
then your time would be better spent worrying more about your personal
finances and less about Digital's vacation pay policy.  I don't mean
this to be critical; it's to your own advantage to get your
finances on a sound footing.

Digital clearly has to pick and choose its employee benefits carefully.
For the most part, they should be selected to benefit the majority
of employees.

  Gary

    To me, the truly sad part is that payroll planned to announce it
    earlier, but deferred it so that employees could take their
    Palmer-vacation.  Oh, I'm not begrudging all the folks who took
    vacation and advanced pay at year's end, but...
    
    This smacks of duplicity.  Digital wanted us to take vacation at the
    end of last year and then turns around and takes away the advanced
    vacation pay process.  In other words, Digital Payroll maniuplated the
    process to best advantage, regardless of the end result.
    
    BobW

  There are a lot of people in Digital who ARE on a tight budget and DO depend
on advance vacation pay to cover their vacations.
  Several points have already been raised: that many travelers need to purchase
a large amount of travelers checks in advance, and that it's difficult to know
for sure if your pay has been deposited every week. I have never traveled out-
side the U.S. and Canada myself, but I know lots of people who have. Calling
the bank's robot phone and determining if your pay has been deposited is simple
in the U.S., but it can get expensive and complicated overseas. Isn't it true
that many foreign countries still have mostly rotary phones? This procedure re-
quires a touch-tone phone, unless you call the bank during business hours, which
raises its own set of problems.
  It's so much easier knowing your money is on deposit before you leave.
  Depending on ATMs in foreign countries to supply you with money is very risky.
It's much simpler and more reliable to obtain and carry a wad of traveler's 
checks.
  I too would like to know who (manager or Payroll) will hold advance time cards
until the week of deposit. I hope it's Payroll. 
  It appears that U.S. Payroll doesn't truly understand the value of advance
vacation pay. They imply that the issue is limited to those who receive live
checks. The real issue is peace of mind while preparing to travel and traveling.
Travelers have a LOT to worry about. They don't need any additional worries
about money.

    re: .19 and managers holding timecards ...
    
    It sounds like the problem of submitting timecards in advance for a
    manager to release really affects the wage class 2 people as opposed
    to wage class four, who get paid the standard amount without any
    timecards being submitted. Wage class 4 people could submit the
    vacation hours on timecards following the vacation without it affecting
    the flow of wages into your bank account.
    
    Geoff

re:17
>        -< Vacations should be paid out of savings, not current income >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Good grief.

    Do you know much a case of beer cost up in Canada ?

    And uhmm, I'm sorry if I not managing  the big pay check DEC gives me
    properly, but having access to it while I'm away would be nice.

    Jim

    
         a) The old saying "don't live beyond your means" is really
            applicable here.  For the unfortunate, who are recently
            becoming un-employed what would happen if there were no
            TFSO or un-employment funds?  Just like not counting on
            social security for retirement.  People should not be
            living paycheck to paycheck these days!
    
         b) Interesting point on .8 and .9.  Here our company and others
            are depending on technology improvements for success, but yet
            you feel there is too much technology. What an oxymoron...
    
         ? How do we get people (AND THE GOVERNMENT) to stop living
           beyond their means/resources??  Just remember the National
           Debt can go up every day, but better not let yours get 
           stretched too far.
    
           Mark  :-)

    
    FWIW.
    
    I can't remember a "manager" submitting a timecard for me.  They sign
    it but it's not that important for them to ensure it's submitted. The
    person that makes sure department wage class 2's are paid on time, is 
    usually the group secretary.
    
    
    Gary
    

	Should employees live within their means?

	Definitely.

	Does advanced vacation pay cost the company money?

	Yes.

	So what? There are lots of things that employees "should" do, and
	lots of things that cost the company money. As in the past, this is
	an example of a benefit being cut. As in the past, it's a relatively
	minor benefit in the scheme of things. As in the past, this benefit
	affected a limited subset of the Digital population.

	And as in the past, there are many people willing to tell those who
	feel the loss that they should just take their medicine and shut up.

	What's the list at now?
	- matching gifts (cut from 100% to 50%)
	- tuition reimbursement (much tighter, depending on organization)
	- Canobie Lake (gone)
	- vacation accrual (cut from 2x yearly accrual to 5 week max)
	- advanced vacation pay (gone)
	- wellness centers (no longer subsidized)
	- interest-free PC loans (gone)
	- service awards (gone, then reinstated, but dinners are gone)

	I'm sure I missed a few...

	As I've said in the past: you may think each of these is minor, and
	of course they make good business sense, especially in a microcosmic
	cost/benefit analysis. But the sum total is an erosion of what made
	this company a great place to work. To each of the people who says
	"there are bigger things to worry about," I ask, what will it take
	to get your attention -- losing the stock purchase plan? Losing
	health benefits? Another wage freeze?

	It used to be that Digital paid wages slightly below industry
	average, but made up for it in benefits and work atmosphere. Well,
	the atmosphere has evaporated with the layoffs, constant
	restructuring, and general lack of leadership at the top. The
	benefits are being chopped off one by one. What does that leave?

	Roy

Re: <<< Note 2934.26 by NOVA::SWONGER "DBS Software Quality Engineering" >>>

>                  -< Another in a long line of benefit cuts >-

>	I'm sure I missed a few...

Turkeys...  :-)

-  David

    
    
    >                  -< Another in a long line of benefit cuts >-
    
    >       I'm sure I missed a few...
    
    Car plans for the field.
    
    -Ed
    

    .25> Of course today time cards are submitted electronically
    
    Where?  Not at MRO3.
    
    Won't your managers approve the vacation timecards before you leave?
    
    Leslie
    

>NOVA::SWONGER
	>It used to be that Digital paid wages slightly below industry
	>average, but made up for it in benefits and work atmosphere. Well,
	
>	Roy

	
	I remember being told lower base salary shouldn't be used against 
	hiring on with the company since we would be working plenty of 
	overtime hours here.  


	Gary
	
	

>      > Why should they? Quite frankly, how you choose to pay your bills is
>      > not their problem. Paying you "on time" is.
>        
>    Well excuse me, but your vacation pay belongs to you and is due you
>    once it is on the books. This money is owed, as an account payable,
>    its been earned and is NOT "advanced pay". 

     Accrued vacation time is payable as you take vacation days (not
     previously too). We do not get payed for accrued vacation time unless 
     we take a day off from work for the purposes of vacation or employment 
     has been terminated.

     Although getting vacation pay in advance is a convenience, it is
     not a requirement. How one pays ones bills is still no concern of
     the company.

     Wouldn't it be nice if we could cash in our vacation time instead of 
     loosing it if we fail to take vacation?. After all, we "earned" it!
       
>    Sounds like this was your idea the way your defending it?

     Is this a question? I'm not defending Digital. But I'm not supporting
     the writers position either.

Doug.

How should vacation pay advanced on Dec 31, 1993 for the month of January be
accounted for on the W2? 1993 or 1994?

How should  vacation pay be accounted for on the companies books
for advances in last week FY93 for first 4 weeks FY94?

Spiraling down the rathole ...

Doug.

    re: Last 2
    We obviously disagree. Apparently you have plenty of money, thats very
    nice. Most of us don't.
    
    > -< Get a grip... >-
    
    Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp!

    Re: .32
    
    Any income you receive in 1993 should go on the 1993 W2 (and your 1993
    income tax).  The IRS doesn't care if it's called "advance vacation
    pay;" all they care about is they calendar year you receive it.
    

    I think it's really sweet that no one has questioned the initial
    percentage of people using the advance pay option.  Did they mean
    per week, or per year?  And, more importantly, did they mean the
    number of people who *tried* to get advance vacation pay, or the
    number who actually succeeded?  (This, I have noticed, has been a
    favorite failure mode of those entering my data.)
    
    							Ann B.

 >   We obviously disagree. Apparently you have plenty of money, thats very
 >   nice. Most of us don't.
 
 Any discussion is likely to produce several differnt points of view and
 this is a healthy attribute of them. But you've got to try not to read
 more than what is said. 

 Specifically: No, I don't have a lot of money. But: I manage my pennies 
 I have so I don't have to depend on money I don't yet have to pay my anticipate
 bills/costs. The company pays me in a certain manner and I plan accordingly.

 I can plan that my checks will be there every Thursday whether I'm there
 to pick them up or not. I can float money (credit cards) over vacation
 if I need to without penalty if I repay within 45 days, ect ...

 Like my first note said; the company should have no interest in how you 
 pay your bills, just its own.

 There are many options available to us all. Getting hung up on this subject
 is just a plain waist of time.

 BTW: Has anyone noticed all the red ink around here? The benifits won't
 improve any if the bottom line doesn't improve.

 Doug.

    
    re .35 I also wondered if when they said x% use advanced vacation pay
    they meant x% of the people who get live checks or x% of the people in
    the company?
    
    Steve B.

    ....growing proportions of the population don't know how to calculate
    them and don't know how to interpret them.
    
    There isn't a 1:1 correlation between the two groups either.

    
    I wish all you pretentious financial analysts out there, would get a
    grip on yourselves, and keep your lame advice to yourself.  You are
    very lucky to have so much money in your bank accounts that you don't
    have to worry about incoming checks on a weekly basis.  Be thankful
    for that and pray that someday YOU don't have to live week to week for
    your paycheck.
    
    But some people DO live week to week.  Not because they want to, but
    because they aren't making the 40k, 50k, or more that those of you with
    all this wonderful advice probably are.  Believe it or not, there are
    many people in this company that make a feable salary.  So those of you
    who are insulated by your fat wallets....pfffffftttt!!!!
    
    I guess I'm bias actually, since nothing anyone could say would
    convince me that advance vacation pay for 3.5 percent of the employee
    population could in any way be perceived as a "hardship" for the 2nd
    largest computer company in the world.  It's a laugh.  I would be more
    convinced that it was a large cost to the company if 96.5 percent of
    employees DID partake of the advanced vacation pay.  Now THAT would be
    a nightmare probably.
    
    I'm embarressed for the company when someone gets a bright idea to cut
    costs by doing something as trivial as this.  Imagine.  The second
    largest computer company in the world can't handle giving 3.5 percent
    of their employees, early pay so they can enjoy their vacation.  To me,
    that's a sad statement.
    

Do other companies give advance vacation pay?

RE: a few back

Just a nit.....

We are no longer the world's second largest computer company

Larry :-)

    >>We're no longer the nations 2nd largest...
    
    Only according to Wall Steet, who loves HP.
    
    When GM had EDS, they were as large a corporation in annual
    revenues as IBM, why weren't they number two?
    
    HP makes great printers, scanners, and instruments.  They have
    come on as a computer company mostly in the last couple of years.
    
    Dan

The reason EDS wasn't considered to be the second largest computer company when
they were owned by GM is that, by the usual measure used on Wall Street, only
computer related revenues count.  Thus all of GM's autombile business earnings
were irrelevant.  In Digital's case its quite straightforward because 100% of
earnings come from the computer industry.

Actually, HP has had greater revenues than Digital for quite a few years now
but some of that money came from their instrument and calculator business so
an adjustment had to be made.

Although I am not happy by any means, they are now legitimately ahead of us in
terms of computer industry revenues (this does include printers but excludes
instruments and calculators).

    re .44
    
    However, WITHOUT the profits from the printer business (or more
    specifically the Toner) business, HP would be well down the charts.
    
    Their strength is that they have been working a constant strategy for
    the last 6 years.   The constancy of that strategy is starting to pay
    off: especially in the telecoms world.
    
    Their big fear is Alpha.
    
    John
    

    re -.1
    
     A very close freind on mine works for HP,
    
    <<< Their biggest fear is alpha.
    
     You bet. They don't mention it in any relevant way amongst each other,
    he thinks it is a mind game. If we don't talk about it maybe it will
    go away. I about died laughing when we were discussing this. Only to
    find out, he wasn't kidding. Then I look at how well we are singing
    praises and marketing it.
    
     Kind of makes one wonder, doesn't it?
    
    -Mike Z.

    
    re -2
    
    don't you mean that they are scared of the 'potential threat' of Alpha?
    Until De...er Digital start really doing things with Alpha, it will
    only ever be a potential threat.
    
    It's all been said before but by now, we should be blowing people's
    minds with Alpha but instead we seem to be blowing our noses.
    
    Not impressed.
    
    Mark.

    One thing that has entered my mind is, isn't your vacation time sorta'
    considered to be already earned so that were you to leave Digital on a
    particular day, you would be paid immediately? What's different about
    going on vacation?
    
    In other words, if they pay you on the day you go on vacation for all the
    vacation that is due you, they're not really paying you for something
    that you don't already have coming to you. I see it as another way of
    their taking something you are due, and making money off it.

>       <<< Note 2934.48 by MIMS::THOMPSON_A "Buck nekkid line dancer" >>>
>                -< what's wrong with this way of looking at it >-
>
>    One thing that has entered my mind is, isn't your vacation time sorta'
>    considered to be already earned so that were you to leave Digital on a
>    particular day, you would be paid immediately? What's different about
>    going on vacation?

Well, by extension, you could negotiate a (1.9*the number of vacation 
weeks you annually accrue)% raise for yourself, and offer to take your 
vacation unpaid.  Then you'd be getting your vacation pay as fast as you
earn it (at least it's as fast as you get your normal pay).
Of course you'd be getting NO pay for vacation, but that's what you'd ask for.

And the folks who really need your vacation pay in advance to afford
to take your vacations - what do you live on when you get back?

- tom]

RE: .39

	I would say that 96.5% of us do live week by week and have
	aranged our finances so that we need the check/deposit comming
	every week. We also save up for vacation the other 52 weeks
	a year with direct deposit into a saving account to pay for vacation.

	If you save a little every week you will be amaized at what
	you can buy and pay cash for no matter what your income is.

I just recieved this reply to my input

 
Subject: RE: Pay delivery                                                       

Thank you very much for your recent response to the U.S. Payroll
Survey on pay distribution methods. We are happy to report a 40% 
response rate and are currently busy reading all comments.

We will publish and distribute a full report of findings and future
plans to every employee in the next 45-60 days.

U.S. Payroll

re .51:

Isn't this the wrong topic?  Or did you make a comment about advance vacation
pay and get a form letter about the payroll distribution questionnaire?

>Do other companies give advance vacation pay?

	Or even........do other parts of the company, other than the US, give
	advance vaccation pay, or even actual cheques.

	Answer - well, not in the UK anyway.

	Heather

    And in France you have to work a year to get any entitlement to
    vacation...
    
    And we get paid by bank-bank transfer (no choice of cash or cheque),
    monthly in arrears, on the 26th of the month...

    I depend on advanced vacation pay, in order to pay my bills while on
    vacation. I will not write checks for bills, not knowing I have the
    money in the bank to cover the checks I write. I don't feel I have to
    take the bills on vacation with me so I can send them while on
    vacation. I also do not know from week to week what I will be getting
    in a check, cause my overtime varies from week to week.
    
    Yes I use the ATM, but it won't tell you how much was deposited, and
    when.

    RE: .55
    
    	If you utilize the Easy-Touch System, you can gain more information
    than at the ATM itself.
    
    	Balance inquires, payroll deposits, and check clearing are but a
    few of the options available.
    
    	You can get a booklet from your DCU office which will give you
    step-by-step instructions in how to use the system, or simply call
    1-800-328-8797 and answer the prompts as they are initiated from the
    computer's end.
    
    	Hope this helps
    
    
    	dlm

    Re: .56
    
    Thats all well and good IF you belong to the DCU, which I don't.
    

    RE: .55 & .57

    All you need is a booklet on the Payee system available where ever your
    location keeps it's forms and fliers and booklets.  The Payee phone
    system allows you to access pay information net or gross allows you to
    change deductions or even change where your direct deposit goes.

    Joe 

    re:.54
    
    You don't know how much overtime will be on your check while you are on
    vacation? Either short vacation, since pay a week behind and bills
    shouldn't be a problem, or you have interesting time reporting.

    I think .59 was directed at .55 not .54