Conference 7.286::digital

    What is the package?  Any idea on how many will be affected?  Does
    anyone know what TFSO stands for?
    
    I have heard rumors that other parts of the company will be hit
    throughout the month of October;  Ed Services being one of them.

    TFSO - Transition Financial Support Option or Temporary Financial
    Support Option

    		Alfred

    For those of you who have access to it, DIGITAL Today's lead article
    is titled "U.S. Field Downsizes".  Basically, it tells about the U.S.
    Field organization's second phase reductions of approx. 700 employees.
    
    A companion article in the same paper "Downsizing Questions Answered"
    gives more detail and answers to questions that might be asked.
    
    Both articles were written by U.S Communications.  Both apply only to
    what's going on in the U.S. Field organization.
    
    Jack

    Word here (Field Sales) is that the TFSO-4 package is the same as
    TFSO-3 even though rumors had it being a lesser package. And management
    has indeed listened to, and learned from, some of the problems 
    experienced with TFSO-3. Employees "tapped" today will not be
    guard-escorted immediately from the premises, but will be allowed to
    retain their badges and do their exit gracefully during the rest of
    this week. Give them a chance to say, and receive, goodbyes in a much
    more comfortable way.
    
    As to no more cuts until next July, while that's desirable from a
    morale and espirit point of view, it may not be realistic from a
    business standpoint. Sales are (if you believe the media and investment
    community, and they're pretty well connected these days) way down
    during Q1 and may just stay there. If they do expense pressures will
    continue to mount and personnel costs are one of the biggest
    contributors to high expenses. And even IBM is continuing to downsize,
    the latest being a new rating scheme to instantly create a lot of
    level-4's that will have a 1/2-life of 30-60 days if the plan works. So
    I think we all have to expect our management to do whatever is
    necessary to get costs under control, and that will undoubtedly mean
    some additional personnel actions.
    
    Interesting commentary in the latest (Oct. 14) Forbes magazine. The
    last page is a "Thoughts on the business of life collection of quotes,
    with a cover comment by one of the Forbes. This one is by the long-dead
    founder B.C Forbes, so it's from sometime in the past. But it's just as
    meaningful today if you subscribe to the idea that those who aren't
    aware of the mistakes of the past are bound to repeat them.
    
    "When the worms are scarce, what does a hen do? Does she stop
    scratching? She does not. She scratches all the harder. A lot of
    businessmen have been showing less sense than a hen since orders became
    scarce. They have laid off salesmen; they have stopped or reduced their
    advertising; they have simply resigned themselves to inaction and, of
    course, to pessimism. If a hen knows enough to scratch all the harder
    when the worms are scarce, surely businessmen.....ought to have
    gumption enough to scratch all the harder for business."  
    
    I think this was back from back in the Depression when Sperry-Rand was
    laying off salesmen and IBM was doing just the opposite. Sperry never
    really recovered and IBM went on to take over the leadership of the 
    industry. But here we have even IBM reducing their sales force, so it
    seems even they may have forgotten the lessons of the past. Of course
    these are very different times from the depression, but it makes for
    interesting debate.
    
    Ciao, and good luck to anybody departing during this round! I'm sure 
    you'll all make out OK (or come out even better off) one way or 
    another....! And who knows; I may even be with you later today. No
    guarantees these days, are there?
      

    
    
    
    The figure I came across was 10%.
    
    

RE: .6

The article mentions to figures, 10% and 700.  If we take both, it
would seem to say that there are 7000 people in the US Field.  Granted
it also says that the Orgs. effected are Sales, Sales Support, and DCCs
but I wonder, are there really only 7000 folks in these organizations?
I would have thought that there were many more than this.

Lee G.

    
    RE.7
    
    I think it means 10% of the total population of Dec.
    
    That would be more in line with the 1 billion they took out for
    downsizing costs. 
          
    

    The "digital TODAY" article clearly states that the October package
    will be the same as the July one.  Betch'a we hear about a biggee
    in field service before 24 hours.
    
    ...but, one question, the article says that people will have to
    turn in their cars on Friday, but will be able to have a rental car
    at company expense for four more weeks!  WHY???  That's the stupidest
    thing I've ever heard of.

    I thought the idea of replacing the company car with a rental car was
    pretty dumb, too, until I realized that the Car Plan A includes
    insurance.
    
    -dave

    Well, I cleaned my desk on Friday. Brought in my equipment from home
    this morning. Really thought this was the day. In fact I got to where I
    was looking forward to it.
    
    We in the field were all told to be in the office Monday. Then you wait
    around to see if you get the tap on the shoulder. " Have you got a
    minute?" Well I made it through another one. They will probably get to
    me when there is no money left for a package.
    
    They got my boss. The problem with the cars has to do with insurance.
    They will have more downsizing before next July. You can take book on
    it. 
    
    Bob

    I don't understand the insurance issue.
    
    BTW...last time I checked you can buy a car and be on the street
    with temporary plates in about four hours.  Why should DEC subsidize
    this area?  I really don't understand.

re: .13

Well, you need a way to get home from the office and to car dealers to purchase
a new car.  Remember, for a lot of people, their plan A car is their only
transportation.  I think it's great that the company is giving people the use
of a car for short period of time to make a rational decision about a car
purchase.

Bob

    OK, OK,  I'll buy one week (or two cab rides).  After all, it isn't
    like they aren't going to have plenty of time.  {:^)

    
    
      Remember when the "lay-off" was not in the DEC vocabulary? Now we 
    think it's a good thing if we don't have another one until July.
    Have we become like all the other large companies out there that
    make poor management decisions, and then lay-off the "worker bees"?
    Have we opened the flood gates here?
      We ought to take a lesson from the sports world. When a team is
    not performing they fire the manger, not the players. 9 times out
    of 10 the team not only performs better, they play over their heads.
    
    
                                             Phil...

    Re: The DEC-Mobile Issues
    
    I have been with DEC since 6/18/90.  I had a DEC-Mobile (A red Taurus)
    when I was in Chicago.  I had to give it up when I got relocated to
    Colorado Springs in early May '91.  The whole time I had my car, I
    looked at it as a benefit that could go away at any time, therefore I
    never got rid of my primary car.  So to these poor souls whose
    DEC-Mobiles were their primary transportation, it's sad, but you should
    have planned ahead.
    
    Concerning being able to purchase a car and be on the street in four
    hours with temp-tags, yep, it could happen, but how many people do you
    know that are able to pull that off on short notice??
    
    By the way, if your credit gets blasted, as mine did back in '86 when I
    went through a divorce, and had all the debts dumped in my lap at once,
    it can take you much, much longer to buy a car.  Where I lived when I
    got divorced (Houston), it would have been no problem.  Where I lived
    when I bought my car in 1988 (Chicago), it was a BIG problem.  I was
    without wheels for four weeks after my old car finally gave up the
    ghost.  How did all that happen, well see, I bought this condo in
    Houston in 1982 and...
    
    
    Bill Slater

    Well, the first of the goodbyes are being said and it's just now
    becoming apparent how significant the cuts are. Gone is the excellent
    Discovery Seminar staff that was so effective at bringing new
    information to customers and prospects alike. Gone are many (all?) of the
    ACT's that did the demos. Gone (I hear) are most of the DCC staffs that
    were to bring the Industry & solution expertise to us when needed. And
    gone (oops! maybe later this week rather than today) are many of the
    Sales Support people that were invaluable in responding to RFP's and
    generating unsolicited proposals. And the secretaries that took over
    from the Proposal Group which was let go during TFSO-3. The fat went
    first, now some muscle is going, and the next one will be major organs.
    So what more efficient and/or effective resources have we replace them
    with? With more customers to cover it surely isn't the sales force, or
    is it? It certainly isn't the remaining few sales Support people, or is 
    it? It certainly isn't the few reamining secys, or is it? Well, I
    suppose I'll find out when it's time for me to know. 'cause all good
    things come to those who wait, right?????
    

    The Jul-3 layoff the employees with company cars got to keep those cars
    for a full month to find transportation.  It seems some overly
    distressed individuals decided to get "EVEN" with Digital and trashed
    the cars.  So to keep the same package as the July cutback they had to
    come up with another plan.  When you rent the car, you pay for
    insurance with the rental unless you waive the insurance payment and
    put it on your own.
    
    I think this is a decent plan, many of the people with DECwrecks are
    single, live in apartments, have parking for only 1 car, or at least no
    real need to maintain 2 cars, so they have the company car.  I think
    with the stress of being layed off, shopping for a car would be just
    one more added stress that would be nice to not have to deal with for a
    week or two.
    
    BTW this is the reason I go with car plan B, so I won't be tied down to
    Digital if I decide to leave. 
    
    Sparky

        Well, I personally expected to be  given the package today, but
        now we are told that everything for the ACT and all of Sales
        Support is on indefinite hold. Seems like a salary freeze in
        reverse. No one, at least at first line management level, seems to
        know what is going on in hte company. Everyone is sitting around
        waiting for things to happen, but nothing is happening. Meanwhile
        we sit here, wonder, grow ulcers, and do nothing.
        
        Let's get on with it, one way or the other.

    We are in a "holding pattern" regarding today's supposed layoffs. It
    seems that Zereski had just approved some reqs. for sales & support for
    Alpha and someone woke up and said WHOAAAA! Why layoff people that we
    can retrain and use on this opportunity.
    
    Sounds like some folks just got a pardon from the governor! Anyway,
    once they resolve the question of these reqs. the axe will resume its
    fall. Seems we can't even do layoffs right!
    
    At least we didn't do what G.E. did to a friend of mine. After
    notifying him he was laid off, they had the temerity to call him the
    next day and tell him that they looked at the numbers and found that
    they *really* only needed to lay off 99 folks. Since he was #100, he
    was welcome to come back to work... and he did... for as long as it
    took him to find another job with another company!
    
    

>    At least we didn't do what G.E. did to a friend of mine. After
>    notifying him he was laid off, they had the temerity to call him the
>    next day and tell him that they looked at the numbers and found that
>    they *really* only needed to lay off 99 folks. Since he was #100, he
>    was welcome to come back to work... and he did... for as long as it
>   took him to find another job with another company!
>    
    

But this is exactly what DID happen to folks today...let go this morning 
and then called later and told, "Oops, we really didn't mean to let the 
Sales Support people go!!!" 

Or, so the rumor here goes.....

Frank

I don't know a lot of the details, but I also heard today did not go well as 
far as the layoffs.  I guess we have not gotten as good at this as our 
competition.

Re:  The comparison to a pro-sports team

The NFL allows teams to start with 60 (?) players, then they have to get down 
to 45 (?) by the regular season (I watch the Redskins and that's all, so sorry 
if I am not accurate on these numbers).  We were allowed to staff up to our 60 
player limit, but we never seemed to cut back, or perhaps, the 60 players were 
hired in the right places, but we didn't get rid of the 60 we didn't need.  No 
layoffs is a nice fantasy, but I agree, it needs doing.  The problem I see is 
this should have been occuring all along for performance reasons and not done 
by quota.  Quota would be all right company wide, but if you have a DCC or ACT 
that is performing well (i.e., they have a good manager to start with that has 
built a strong team), quotas are absolutely wrong.  Apparently Ken doesn't 
want to hurt anyone's chances with the layoff, so no one is being released for 
performance reasons since that would hurt their chances of re-hire.  Seems to 
me we could give them the same letter if they weren't performing and nothing 
would change.

Re:  A Plan

When I joined Digital four+ years ago, I had a '78 Celica with less than 80K 
miles on it.  I would have been happy to drive it since I had not had any 
problems with it.  Unfortunately, it did not quite qualify for the B Plan 
(four years old, seats X, 4 door, etc.).  I am single, so I sold it and took 
the A Plan.  I also came to this company at much less than I could have gotten 
elsewhere, but the A Plan works out to $7-8K per year.  That was a factor in 
my decision.  I didn't have a Mazda or Nissan Z before, and a new Celebrity
every three years didn't seem so bad.

Now I have no car payment (see the $7-8K benefit above) and hence, no room for 
that in my budget.  I also have no car insurance or maintenance payment.  If I 
suddenly have to buy a car, whether still employed by Digital (see A Plan 
elimination notes from two years ago) or unemployed, I have no insurance 
record for the last four years.  After 4 years, I am at the low end of the 
population that has this problem.  Some have not had personal insurance for 
ten years or more.  So, I now pay a teenager rate when I have driven accident 
free for 20+ years!

Dick,

I know you guys in the Springs have it great, even if you don't have a company 
car.  I drove from the Marriott N (I think that is the hotel near the AF
Academy) to the airport, at 8 a.m., and it had been snowing for three days,
and I could not have driven in that kind of courteous traffic, without any
problems, around here, unless it was 3 in the morning and the roads were dry
(sorry D.C. folks, I think that's as close as we get to driving in Colorado
Springs during rush hour in a snow storm). 

There are folks living in very small homes, many miles (40 is a short commute)
from the office, who drive in horrific traffic every day in this area, and the
loss of the company car, even if still employed, would be a terrible financial
burden. 

Please keep in mind when you criticize some of these perks, "Your mileage may 
vary."

    Some of you folks are missing a major nit in the Plan A package. It may
    be real nice of the company to allow someone 4 weeks to find another
    car, but they'll need to find a cheap one. They'll need to be able to
    pay cash. This means either a really cheap used bomber, or a healthy
    bank account! The finance guys will laugh them right out of the office
    when they tell them "Job? I don't have a job, just got laid off."
    
    Harry
    

    
    	Those were my thoughts exactly, Harry.  And maybe, just maybe,
    	somebody can round up a job before the 4 weeks expires.  (Tho'
    	that's VERY unlikely back here in NE.)
    
    	Re others & quotas..
    
    	From where I sit dam few managers have been selected for out
    	placement!  Many former managers are now doing "special projects",
    	as individual contributors.  They carry big salaries, a lot bigger
    	than their peers, a lot bigger than the worker bees that are being
    	let go.
    
    	Seems to me the goal should be expense reduction, not head-count
    	reduction.  The elimination of a few nice $80K+ heads could go a
    	long way.
    
    	Volunteers?  What about a blanket 'wanna volunteer for the
    	package?' program?  Get those many folks that want to leave,
    	are ready to leave, and know they can afford to leave.  Seems
    	like common sense to me.
    
    	Or how about an early retirement program?  A number of companies
    	have offered older (50+) workers the opportunity to take advantage
    	of thier age 55 retirement benefits early.  Once again, a volunteer
    	program.
     
      

Well here's the story in Philly.

(Disclaimer: Remember, this is all word-of-mouth.  Absolutely NONE of this has
been discussed with any management people.)

X% of the transition candidiates (T) recieved, and signed for their documen-
tation.  (1-X%)(T) transistion candidates are pending.  Some of the X% might 
have been "mistakes."  All employees (including X's) were asked to remain in 
the facility through 5:00 pm, for an ad-hoc meeting.  Compliance with this 
request was not the best.

The meeting never happened, there is supposed to be another one today, I don't
know if I am an X, a 1-X, a real employee, or what.  Anybody else have a good
night's sleep last night?

What I do know is that, now, I WANT OUT!

Dear whoever,

Your downsizing plan worked, at least for me.

thomas

    >>	Seems to me the goal should be expense reduction, not head-count
    >>	reduction.  The elimination of a few nice $80K+ heads could go a
    >>	long way.
    
        $80K+ ??   How about $250K+ heads?  Ever see the list of all the
    	V.P.s - it's huge.  There's probably a new VP in charge of
    	downsizing, too.
    
         dnb

    
    	There are numerous $80K+'ers that have little or no current
    	function worthy of that salary.
    
    	As to VPs (we have so many!)...  I don't object to a large
    	salary for large responsibilities and authority.  I would 
    	like to see some indication of accountability for failure
    	at that level, though.  (Maybe I recently did?)
    
    

    In reply to the previous two comments, I too would like to see
    some of the "250K+" employees get the boot so more of the lower
    salaried employees (those who really do the work) can keep their
    jobs and bring revenue in for the Company.  I have just heard that
    two of these V.P.'s have left by their own choice (resigned).  That's
    maybe enough salary saved to allow 10 more workers to keep their jobs.
    I hope we do not have to cut any of the software support people after
    all.
    
    -Jill-

    
    re .4, "digital today":
    
    Must have been a real popular edition -- I walked by the stand
    yesterday at 11:00 and it was full, back at 2:00 to get a copy and it
    was empty.
    
    Could someone who still has copies at their facility send me mail? I'd
    like to arrange to get one.
    

Return-Path: decisv::caldec::joec
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 91 17:17:27 -0700
From: decisv::caldec::joec
To: @castro, sonora::palo-alto
Cc: JOEC
Subject: Digital Today Publication

Hello,

Corporate Security and Corporate U.S. Communications this morning
issued a communique to remove from distribution all copies of 
the newspaper DIGITAL TODAY, Volume II, Issue #34,  October 7, 1991.

All issues allocated to the Palo Alto/Mountain View Campus have
been retrieved and will be disposed of properly.

Reasons for the removal of the newspaper were not communicated nor was 
communicated if a revised issue will be published.

Regards,

Joe Chiaramonte, NCA Security

    As is usual ... our copies were sent Airborne to the Beelersfield
    office.....
    
    The bidding is now open ... ;-)
    
    Jerry

    I heard the digital today that was removed contained inaccurate
    downsizing information. What a waste of effort and money for
    publishing that edition! Besides the paper and manpower to write
    and print, the costs of transportation, etc. What a blunder.
    
    

    
    What inaccuracy was that?  7000 people instead of 700?  
    I shouldn't joke about that.  It's probably true.
    
    Mark

    
    (which pretty soon should be just about worth the paper they're
     printed on, if this silliness keeps up)
    

    OK, that's it!!  There is no longer any question....the inmates ARE
    in charge.  God, and this is the management of a 13+ Billion buck
    company?  It is to cringe.

    ... I mean, the stock was up a buck and a quarter yesterday

    
    I received mail today, which stated that the October 7, 1991 edition of
    "DIGITAL TODAY" was to be pulled because of the front-page story which
    is titled "U.S. FIELD DOWNSIZES".  While the article had been approved 
    by management,  Ken Olsen does not want it distributed. 

                          

Did you ever hear those stories about people who were dead for a few 
minutes and experienced the after life?

Or about the Sales Support or PSST's who were layed off at 8:30 and 
told at 10:00 to pretend the meeting never happened?

Apparently, an executive order was issued Monday morning declaring 
that NO Sales Support or PSST's were to be layed off (at least not yet).

So how would you feel if you were in that category?

Call me "the limbo man"...

    This has got to be the corporate equivalent of the Katzenjammer Kids. 
    Only Digital, and I really mean ONLY DIGITAL could screw something up
    this bad!.   Meanwhile, out here in Colorader Sprangs HP just had 500
    people VOLUNTARILY accept a very generous severance package.  The
    whole thing was smooth, professional, minimally painful, and definitely
    not DEC.  What the hell is going on?

.-1> Meanwhile, out here in Colorader Sprangs HP just had 500
.-1> people VOLUNTARILY accept a very generous severance package.  

  Exactly what is generous ?  Is it more than Digital offered with it's
voluntary layoff ?  

   Why haven't we made the TFSO III & IV volunatry to those of us out here
in the field ?  I know of several people who would be happy to reduce headcount
if they could get the 13 weeks + Nyears.  Will it ever happen ?

Mike.

>================================================================================
>Note 1627.43                         TFSO 4                             43 of 43
>CSOA1::CONNER "Welcome to the jungle"                11 lines   9-OCT-1991 13:44
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
...
>   Why haven't we made the TFSO III & IV volunatry to those of us out here
>in the field ?  I know of several people who would be happy to reduce headcount
>if they could get the 13 weeks + Nyears.  Will it ever happen ?
Because we are entrusting the decisions about who's going to get tapped
involuntarily to the same people who made the business decisions resulting in
the involuntary tapping.

>
>Mike.
> 
BobW - a disgusted stockholder

    .....re -2 -- the paper says a flat year's pay for everyone.  That
    ain't bad.  Also this is just part of a much larger RIF throughout
    all of HP.  What's important is that HP has still not had to implement
    any lay-offs at all.  Meanwhile, we stumble around in a
    self-made-muddle.  If DEC had ever made separation truly voluntary, I
    honestly believe that we would not have had to lay off one person.
    
    This speaks volumes about HP's management vs. our "manglement".
    
    'nuf said.......sadly, Dick

    re: last 5 or 6
    
    I am almost embarrased I entered the initial note for this topic. It's
    seems that indeed things have gone astray. Though in our local office
    everything happended just as I outlined in .0. At least to my
    knowledge.
    
    But obviously in many parts of the country chaos reigns supreme as
    people are put through a roller coaster of emotions I can only imagine.
    Who will save Digital from Digital? 
    
    Some of the people making 6 figure salaries had better step up to the
    pulpit and tell us "grunts" what the hell is going on (I am not holding
    my breath). There is some damn fine talent going out the door (some
    voluntarily, some not).
    
    

If HP is treating everybody right,and doing so wonderful, then why oh why
are they getting rid of 500 people (as claimed a few notes back) from one 
site? Would you feel better if Digital was getting rid of 500 people at your
site?

And I doubt if everybody HP is booting out the door is getting 52 weeks
severance pay.

Bruce

        Happened to us here in the Chicago ACT. We expected to be handed
        our packages Monday morning. Instead we were told that everything
        was on hold for an indefinite period. Several people were assigned
        to "new" jobs created over the weekend. Others were ignored.
        
        Today they finally started handing out notification packages to
        the 52xx job codes. I got mine around 11:00am. They seem to be
        doing it orderly, by badge number, so us old timers are the first
        to go. We now have until November 8th to find another job or hit
        the streets. The jobs that some folks were given on Monday have
        turned to vapor. Now the several dozen of us that are in the
        "pool" can fight over the one or two scraps that might be tossed
        our way.
        
        Maybe it's all for the best. This isn't the company I came to work
        for almost 12 years ago. I need to find out who the "Digital of
        the 90's" is.

    Who says you can't screw up a one car funeral?????????
    
    Karen
    

    HP had 1,900 folks at the site and the severance was offered to all
    but 100 personnel.
    
    Apparently, HP was banking on 300 picking up the package but 500 raised
    their hands.
    
    Side note:  My neighbor works for HP and he told me what was going
    to happen there a couple of months ago.  He mentioned that since APPLE's
    Manufacturing had moved into town, alot could be going there since 
    they use HP equipment (depending on skills required).

If we can believe what we have read here about HP, then the offer was made at 
a single site, and they only expected 300 takers.  They got 500.  I bet they 
learn, but they probably knew the risk and it was limited.

Now if you were a manager (no thanks, I don't want that responsibility) and 
had to make a decision about letting employees go, how would you do it?  Are 
you thinking a Level 1 manager?  Yeah that's tough, but how about a Level 3 
manager, or a CEO?  How do you make it fair for the employees and protect the
interests of the stockholders?   Offer the package to 70,000 U.S. employees, 
hoping that 12,000 will accept and 20,000 accept.  Now you have a legal 
obligation (contracts are based on offer and acceptance) to honor that offer 
to all 20,000, and you probably can't keep your commitments to the 
stockholders, like continue to perform the services, deliver the products, 
that they expect you to perform/deliver.

If you don't like that dilemma (too easy, the CEO got what he deserved for 
doing that to begin with), how about this?  How do you ensure jobs with value 
for as many of your 70,000 employees as possible, while meeting the demands of 
the stockholders, analysts, customers, etc.?  And do you chop off limbs, or 
perform neurosurgery on fingers/toes (I said digits initially, but I thought 
better of it).  Chopping limbs is painful, but you recover from one pain and 
go on.  Cut a finger/toe at a time, and you have repeated pain, perhaps not as 
great, but maybe you have a better chance of removing the right finger/toe and 
leaving as much intact as possible.

Anyone here have a relative that is a trauma surgeon?

    The reason digital is doing such a poor job at doing lay-offs is it
    hasn't had the practice like most companys have at doing this.People
    should be thankful that dec held the line as long as it has before
    the choice was made to lay-off.
    
    You could be working for a company that was owned by a large oorporation
    and after a certain time that corp decides it doesn't want the company
    any more and cuts you lose only to be robbed by the one who takes over.
    When that happen chapter 7 time and 12 years service out the door.I'm
    not a college grad and what i was doing at the company was running
    obsolete computer equipment.It took a long time for me to get a desent
    job after that.
    
    The 90's are here and alot of us have become our own compamy inorder to
    get along in this world.Things are not going to be pretty for many
    people.If one hasn't seen the warning signs of bad times coming, all
    one has to do is pick up a paper and read it every day or watch the
    news on tv.
    
    Last note.The ones who are still working should be thankful they aren't
    out the door.It's not fun standing in line ever other week waiting for
    a hand out from the government. 

    	Maybe I got this wrong, but I thought I had heard that HP was
    moving some of its Colorado Springs engineering work to the New England
    area (Apollo in Chelmsford). This included some OS development/support
    and some workstation/graphics work. Obviously, if HP is moving work
    around like this, people aren't necessarily going to move with it...and
    it could make things interesting in this area (Mass/N.H.) if true.
    	By the way, the layoff roller coaster ride doesn't surprise me at
    all. A few years back, when I was in Worksystems, my entire group was
    put on "transition." About a week later, we were told we could be taken
    off transition if we signed up for some support work (we were a
    development group being asked to take another groups' code, thrown over
    the wall, and get it to work). When nobody signed up for this, about a
    week or two later, we were taken off transition anyway. A few weeks
    after that, some of the people were put back on transition. Some
    remained in that state for YEARS. So, no, this doesn't surprise me.

>          <<< Note 1627.53 by MSBCS::KINNEY "Charlie Kinney, BXB1" >>>
>    It's not fun standing in line ever other week waiting for
>    a hand out from the government. 

Not to take away from your other points, but unemployment benefits (if 
that's what you are referring to) are paid from employer funded, government
administered monies.
People who collect unemployment are collecting on insurance paid on their
behalf by their former employers. (Okay, often augmented by government
contribution.)

- tom]

    I, for one, hope and pray that DIGITAL never gets so experienced at
    laying off (or separating) folks that they get real good at it.
    
    There's clearly some sort of power struggle going on in DEC executive
    suites (witness VP departures, etc.), and we are seeing the fallout
    from that (lack of direction, multiple faux pas, etc.).  While it is
    painful to watch, and even more painful when directly affected, I hope
    the end result is a stronger company with a clear sense of direction
    (and someone clearly in charge).
    
    Of course, I can hear the hoots, catcalls and charges of naivete off in
    the distance already...
    
    Dick.

    Re: 56
    
    Dick:
    
    I couldn't agree more in that I too hope that DIGITAL never gets
    so experienced at laying off folks that they get REAL good at it,
    but come on.....the title of this topic is TFSO 4......don't you
    think some of the people implementing this would be getting the
    hang of it by now?
    
    Some of the incidents shared with us in this file are horrendous;
    telling people they are gone......ooops, no.......later in the
    day....you're gone again.....I'm sorry, something is dreadfully
    wrong with this picture.
    
    If I had stayed with my previous group I would have been able to
    volunteer for TFSO I (along with 4 co-workers); but I chose to
    move to my current group because I had a skill set they were looking
    for (hmmmmm.....maybe I should have filled out that survey.....I'm probably
    an ostrich for sure) :-)  Be that as it may, there were quite a few
    people who were more than willing to volunteer the first time around.
    Sure, we probably would have lost a few terrific people that DEC
    really didn't want to lose.......but I'd be willing to bet those
    numbers wouldn't come anything close to what we'd see if DEC were to
    allow folks to volunteer now.  I believe the hemorrhaging really is
    starting to happen.  The younger, highly qualified people ARE bailing
    out....they see no further need to squander their skills and dreams
    on DEC.
    
    I don't think too many of us are missing the obvious; DEC *does*
    need to reduce the size of its work force.  Earlier this spring
    there was a LiveWire article discussing how future TFSO's were to
    be handled.....that particular message mentioned performance and
    budgets specifically, and said each employee was to have a current
    PA completed by April 30th <------ it shouldn't take a rocket
    scientist to figure out that this was a message to management to
    identify performers vs non-performers so that when it came time
    to implement the next TFSO we wouldn't wind up throwing out the
    baby with the bathwater!!
    
    In cases where entire departments or groups were being eliminated;
    someone recognized as an outstanding performer shouldn't have had
    too much difficulty in stepping into another area and filling a
    slot emptied by the elimination of a non-performer.  I'm not so
    naive that I believe this would have worked in every situation....
    but it might have gone a long way in preventing so many of our
    skilled and productive workers being shown an EXIT sign.
    
    TFSO I was implemented in the summer of 1989; after 2 years, I don't
    think it's unreasonable to expect the powers that be to recognize a
    more equitable and HUMANE way to complete the task so that the
    remaining employees are *truely* motivated to get on with it and
    move (or push/drag....whatever) DEC forward.
    
    Karen
    

    The only thing that I don`t understand is that every time DEC lays off
    peolpe the stock go`s down,DEC`s bank account go`s up and peolpe are
    hired in other parts of the DEC world or DEC purchases a company or
    builds a new plant someplace..Look back at the downsizing records and
    tell me how we downsize from 120.000 people and end-up with 122,000
    people a month or so later..
    

    A friend of mine made it through the July cuts, his management said
    "don't worry, you're here to stay".  In August, his management stopped
    looking him in the eye... the subtle message "you're on the next list".
    
    He started looking for another job.  Flying all over the country,
    calling all his contacts, etc.  On Monday, he was scheduled to be given
    the package.  His management got the call to take him off the list.  
    
    Now he is told he has 4 weeks to look for a job.  Back to flying all
    over the country again.... along with 100's of others.
    
    Why can't this company develop an effecient plan for reassigning
    skilled employees?  Why are there managers hiring from outside without
    even making a minimal effort to pursue these misplaced individuals
    (could the cost of retraining possibly be a better solution than adding
    headcount during these times or are these managers too lazy to develop
    a reskilling plan)?
                                             
    Why doesn't personnel have some type of job fair in major cities? 
    Never mind that, it is too similar to COD, and I don't want to get into
    that rat hole.
                  
    I am rambling, but I see us making the same mistakes over and over...
    we end up spending so much money and submitting so many to emotional
    roller coasters.    We have proven we are idiots when it comes to
    handling human resource issues.  COD and TFSO are prime examples. 
    
    This company needs help!
    
    - disgusted in GA
    
    

Some of what is happening now with TFSO 4 was explained to us this morning
in our survivors meeting. I'll summarize the events as they were relayed to
us this morning. Please remember I am only a messanger.

            1. Someone(s) convinced KO that hundreds of valuable technical
               sales support expertise was going to be layed off simply
               because they were in the wrong seat at the wrong time.

            2. KO was also convinced the perhaps the bugeting and manpower
               assignments was a "little flawed".

            3. Apparently KO contacted Zereski and asked him to "think 
               about it" a little.

            4. The whiplash effect was that hundreds of sales support people 
               that were scheduled to be layed off now have temporary jobs 
               lasting 4 weeks. Their temporary job is to find another job
               within DEC. 

            5. As in all mass movements timing was not all that good and some
               people were actually layed off and then called back to be told
               they had 4 more weeks.

            6. This 4 week delay does not apply to people in the new PSST 
               groups. If you were unlucky enough to be in a PSST (which in 
               my opinion is really just another kind of sales support), and 
               got tapped, your gone no later than tomorrow.

            7. Final message was "don't be afraid to take risk".

I am going to refrain from stating my somewhat emotional opinions about this 
whole lousy mess. I wanted this reply to be as factual as possible under the
current circumstances. Nevertheless........

God help us all.

Gene.

    Sounds like a typical Digital wimp-out, when what we need is
    old-fashioned leadership at the highest levels.
    
    What we really need is a centralized personnel function that
    arbitrarily assigns excess personnel to announced open positions,
    and removes the so-called hiring manager from the decision process.
    
    Obviously, if the individual does not want to accept the transfer, it's
    bye-bye time WITHOUT a large severance package.  The receiving manager
    would be measured on his ability to fit the transferee in and bring
    same up to speed.
    
    This whole thing is so stupid, but even more sadly, so unnecessary!

    I heard on the news last night that Allied Signal is going to layoff
    one out of every seven of its employees.  The ones that would be
    selected for elimination would all come from the ranks of supervisors
    and mid-level managers.
    

re .61:

>    What we really need is a centralized personnel function that
>    arbitrarily assigns excess personnel to announced open positions,
>    and removes the so-called hiring manager from the decision process.

And I thought everybody (except Castro?) realized that central planning
and forced labor are inefficient.

    re: .61
    
    Prior to now, I had always assumed that you expected your blathering to
    be taken seriously.  Now I realize it's just 'like a tale told by an
    idiot'.
    
    One can make an argument that most hiring processes are flawed and that
    they bear a strong resemblabce to a crap shoot. On the other hand,
    you're proposing a kind of perverse Russian Roulette where instead of 5
    empty chambers and one bullet in the revolver, there are 5 bullets and 
    one empty chamber.
    
    Al
    

    .....why didn't I expect this, God?  It works extremely well for the
    military....why not Digital?  BTW, if you have never served in the
    military, you have no right to respond.

Mr Lennard et al:

How do you expect Digital to produce leadership products that will get us out of
hole we're in right now if our hiring is constrained to folks we have to retrain?
I sponsored a STEP candidate (HW eng --> SW engineers) and was very pleased with
the program and the results; however, I didn't have to take a hit on product
schedules to be able to take on someone who required training.  The STEP program
handled that for us.

If we did things as you propose we would either end up totally blowing time to 
market goals (worse than we already do) or we'd end up being very unfair to the
folks expecting to be retrained.

-Ken

    re: .65
    
    is that why we used to get parts for chopters when we needed parts
    for 111's???
    
    ya works great in the military...and in Cuba...and in Russia...
    

    
    
       Someone, I think it was in .25, asked about why management has
    not been hit with this package? This is my question as well. Look
    at it logically (I know, I know, this is DEC we never do anything
    logically) if you cut the number of people under management, why do 
    you need the same number of managers? In other words, if a manager 
    had 10 people, s/he now has 4 people, why are they still a manager.
       Now I know "some" of these managers had been put back into 
    positions as individual contributors, or into "special" projects.
    But if you were to look around, it doesn't take a rocket scientist
    to see we have far too many layers of management, with far too many
    managers in general. Personally I think that's a large part of the
    problem. There are so many layers of management that by the time 
    the information gets from the "trenchs" to Sr. management it's
    so deluded, it's not even a similar story. It's like the guy who
    tells a joke at a party, 2 hours later he hears his joke and it
    sounds vaguely familiar. 
       In my opinion, lets stop cutting the people that drive revenue, and 
    cut people who are overhead (aka management). But there I go, being
    logical again.
    
    
                                Phil...

    I may have started some of this...
    
    My reference to retraining and management's laziness in this area is
    based on personal experience with COD.  I also happen to know at least
    a half dozen CODer's that this happened to...
    
    MANY managers, taking advantage of what seemed like a great deal (hire
    someone and the first 2 years are free) increased their headcount with
    little or no thought to how they were going to train and deploy the
    resources.  
    
    None of the individuals that I am refering to had to leave their jobs,
    most of them had technical and "customer oriented" skills.  The reason
    they were snatched up was the hiring managers believed they would be
    welcome additions to their teams, at a low cost.
    
    NONE of these managers that I am discussing developed job or
    development plans for their employees.  In typical Digital fasion, they
    basically tossed the employee to the wolves and asked them to develop a
    business plan to justify their exsistence.  (ok, so they sent them to
    sales or sales support training...)
    
    Many of these CODer's were going into organizations that were new, or
    providing new services.  They were looking to their management to help
    them define their role, and establish the areas where they should build
    expertise.
    
    Many of these CODer's were told to change focus repeatedly.... thus
    they never developed a level of expertise that was useful.
    
    My basic point is that there are a lot of technical, professional
    folks out there that could be redeployed and become motivated experts
    IF the company invested in the appropriate training and mentorship up
    front.  It does no good to redeploy someone to an area that is new,
    that the manager does not understand, and expect this person to become
    an authority overnight.
    
    We want people to change, be flexible, and develop new skills, but we
    want it too quickly.  My bet is if you took everyone that participated
    in COD 1,2 and 3 and put them in entensive training WITH MENTORS two
    years ago, you would have a very good pool of focused talent today....
    
    instead, many of these folks have 4 weeks to find a job in an area
    where they probably will not be an expert, and the cycle will
    continue.. the hiring manager will hope they get up to speed quickly,
    will not plan their training, and they employee will be disgusted and
    on the "list" the next round....
    
    Paula

    re: .57
    
    Karen,
    
    This may be TFSO4, but don't delude yourself into thinking that means
    practice makes perfect.  My group participated in TFSO3, yet it was the
    FIRST TIME any of us had been involved in implementing such a thing -
    and that INCLUDED site personnel.  It went off very fairly, but that
    happened due to the sensitivity and caring of the management involved,
    not due to any previous experience or central planning.  If there were 
    a strong corporate personnel organization that had developed and was 
    charged with(not just offering guidelines for) the TFSO packages, then 
    I could buy the argument that the administration should improve over 
    time.  But, with each TFSO involving yet more uninitiated, unprepared, 
    unguided management, come on, smell the coffee.  No one is in charge, 
    so each TFSO is an adventure.  Sad, but true.
    
    Dick.
    
    Dick.

    re: Hp layoff replies

    I have it from a good source in HP that the reason so many took the
    offer was that one or two key managers left many of the HP employees
    with the impression that if they did not take to buyout, they may find
    themselves leaving without the package.  This was not the messaage that
    upper management intended to be tranmitted down the line but we know
    how distorted thing get as they flow downhill.

    

    re: the last few on job re-locations
    
    For the last 2 1/2 years I tried to find a different job within
    Digital. And based on my experiences I can only say that current
    policies and procedures are inadequate at best - and in some cases just
    plain stink. I had a good reason to re-location. My wife developed a
    medical condition that makes living in this climate very unconfortable
    and at certain times of the year potentially dangerous.
    
    I realize the last couple of years have been tough. And no I wasn't
    picky (anywhere in the western half of the US and someplaces overseas
    would have been just fine). I DON't want to start a rat hole about my
    qualifications. I have a list of over 2 dozen "hiring" managers who
    made committments to me (most required a simple phone call or mail
    message) and did not live up to them. I have logged dozens of call and
    mail messages to those people that were all ignored.
    
    I am amazed at the arragance(sp) and total lack of common professional
    courtesy I experienced by the VAST MAJORITY of the hiring managers I
    contacted in the US field. And most of them are still around. I
    sympathsize with those who now, as a result of TFSO 4, have 4 weeks to
    find a new home somewhere in DEC.
    
    Gene.

    
    I found an old match book in my desk at home. It was an advertisement to
    start your own worm farming business.
    
    Gee, it's starting to look better every day.
    
                                                   

    Roger your comments on hiring managers and professional courtesy.
    
    When I was "on the boat" for a year in 85, I kept records, and it was
    average of 13 weeks before I could get even a preliminary interview.
    
    Roger again on managers NEVER returning calls, and also NEVER getting
    back after a long-sought-after-interview.
    
    People with four weeks should just relax and concentrate on getting a
    job outside Digital.

Before you start a worm farm, you might want to read e. e. cummings' poem
on the subject.

You may be more successful than you wish.

Martin.

        Nix the worm farm. It seems that Digital has enough worms already.

Re: Managers being hit

In Pheonix, 6 Sales and Sales-Support managers are now three.


Re: TFSO 4 hit in San Diego

So far, I'm aware of 5 people affected by TFSO 4, myself included.  I'm glad
for the TFSO 4 delay for Sales-Support because it gives me an additional 5
weeks, including this week, paid, to find a job.

My understanding of the hold on Sales-Support layoffs is due to the VMS
partners commenting to Ken Olsen about 'Who do you expect to sell Alpha?  The
Salesreps?'

Dan

    re: -1
    
    I am glad that a lot of people got extra time to look for new job.
    However, I can't help beleive that very very few of them will find new
    jobs with Digital. So the problem the VMS partners posed to Ken still
    remains. Who will sell ALPHA? My take on it is that with ever
    decreasing numbers of technical support in the field, many products
    will not be sold - some good and some not so good. As a result, some
    product lines will go broke - some not deserving such a fate.

    ALPHA will not sell itself.  I should hope we have learned that the days of
    products selling themselves are over ...
    
    Steve

    Does anyone have any evidence that we EVER learn anything.  The
    Digital way is that we will let these people go...and then when
    Alpha happens we will all be running around like chickens with their
    heads cut off because there won't be any technical/support resources.
    
    What else is new...we do this all the time.  It's what we call
    management.  {:^(
                  :
                  :
                  ;

    re -1 "What else is new?  We do this all the time.  It's what we
    call management"
    
      Yeah, or lack there of!

    
    
    
    The next "transition" should be renamed, now that the precedents have
    been well established.  I think it should be called what we called it
    at Northrop DSD when I worked there.
    
    The word rhymes with the word Mohican, it's BOHICA.
    
    That stands for:
    
                            Bend
                            Over
                            Here 
                            It
                            Comes
                            Again
    
    
    
    
    :-)  --------->   :-|   --------->   :-(   ---------->   >:-{

    From what I am observing about this time around, our management is
    really trying to do what's right at the upper levels.  Are they
    learning about how to handle layoffs?  I think so because of evidence
    that I've heard and read about indicating that they are trying to avoid
    layoffs, to minimize layoffs and to handle what layoffs they have to do
    in a fashion that preserves dignity and gives a person a shot at
    starting a new career outside.
    
    I'm reminded of a saying that I heard, I think attributed to General
    Patton.  He was asked something about when it was that he worried about
    the troops.  He indicated that when his troops were griping about
    living conditions and such he felt they were doing okay.  It's when
    they fell silent that he began to worry.  We at least work in a company
    that, for the most part, encourages us to be vocal and to gripe.  We
    do, and sometimes it even gets the attentions of people that do things
    about it.  Thankfully, att Digital this is pretty much a given.
    
    Steve

    
    
    	Can anyone shed any light on the rumor that the FY92 cuts
    	will be accomplished in calender year '91, and/or that it
    	will be over & done with by the end of Oct?
    
    	Is there any truth to this, or is it babble?
    
    	God, don't wish they'd come out and tell us something?  We
    	can all accept that things may change, but just an attempt
    	to let us know how many they plan to eliminate, in what
    	major business groups, by when, etc.  
    
    	(My father is 77, lives outside Hartford CT and he told me 
    	about the last one!  He read it in the Hartford Courant.)
                                         

    I don't know about that one, but if something is
    going to happen...
    
    - and they want people out by the end of the year.
    
    - and the 9 weeks severance applies.
    
    It's going to happen by next week.  And it should be Monday or Tuesday
    with the new layoff guidelines of letting you know by then,
    and giving you the rest of the week to say goodbye.
    
    I think it's just going grind along quarter by quarter and get 
    progressively worse.
    
    Mark

    Looks like the Digital today stands have been restocked....
    
    Volume II, Issue 35
    
    Headline:  "US Field downsizing information"
    

    re: .82
    If
        B-O-H-I-C-A  === bo hee' cuh
    then
        N-M-S        === E' nuh muhz
    
    ??

         Oh by the way folks, the reason why the benefits to "the package"
    didn't change is because we are not in TFSO4, we are still in TFSO3.
    
                                     Greg

    Another reason for those with Plan A vehicles to be able to keep their
    vehicles for a period of time is that once a bank/financing company
    finds out a person is not employed - financing is really tough to
    qualify for without a larger down payment and possibly higher rates.

    FWIW, a friend of mine was included in the recent layoffs at Shaws
    Super Mkts.  She had an impeccable record there with 21 yrs of loyal
    service.  Her pkg:  One day's notice and two weeks severance pay.
     

    What is the upcoming severance package rumored to be for the
    next round of cut backs slated for late October/early November?
    
    Will it be the same as the most recent package or less?!?!?
    
    

    Additional question:
    
    Is one's pension, if fully vested, effected in anyway if they
    receive the buy out?  (i.e. Is your pension lost?)
    
    

    re -1 ........absolutely not....believe me on this one.  You even get
    your pension if you are literally fired, or so Personnel tells me.
    
    On TSF04......logic says it will be less, probably considerably.  
    Otherwise they would stick with TSF03.  You can certainly bet it won't
    be more.

re .-1
>    re -1 ........absolutely not....believe me on this one.  You even get
>    your pension if you are literally fired, or so Personnel tells me.
    
Wrong!

If you are 55 years old or older and you take the buyout, you have coverage in 
the Digital Medical Plan for life.

If you take the buyout before your 55th birthday, you get the one year 
extension on the medical plan, followed by an opportunity to buy your own 
coverage via C.O.B.R.A (for a limited period and inflated rates), followed by 
a short nasty trip which ends at Medicaid City.

Larry

    Larry:
    
    I think .92 was talking about "pension".....your answer was 
    addressing medical coverage....not the same thing where I live.
    
    Karen
    

re:   <<< Note 1627.94 by SKIVT::ROGERS "What a long strange trip it's been." >>>

>>    re -1 ........absolutely not....believe me on this one.  You even get
>>    your pension if you are literally fired, or so Personnel tells me.
    
>Wrong!

>If you are 55 years old or older and you take the buyout, you have coverage in 
>the Digital Medical Plan for life.

>If you take the buyout before your 55th birthday, you get the one year 
>extension on the medical plan, followed by an opportunity to buy your own 
>coverage via C.O.B.R.A (for a limited period and inflated rates), followed by 
>a short nasty trip which ends at Medicaid City.

I confused, what does medical coverage have to do with a pension?

- George

What does Medical Coverage have to do with a pension?  Plenty.

For many people, the dollar value of the lifetime coverage in the Digital 
Medical Plan will greatly exceed the amount they receive in direct pension 
benefits.  The point I was trying to make a few entries back was that if you 
were approaching 55 and got TFSO'd, you would be getting a LOT less money from 
DEC then if you were over 55.

Therefore, for some people, the DEC pension would be worth much less if they 
received the package today.

Larry_who_is_53_and_isn't_volunteering_for_the_buyout_for_at_least_660_days

    FWIW...
    
    I have it on good authority that the field will not undergo any further
    "rightsizing" in this fiscal year. This is suppose to have come from Mr
    Zereski himself.
    
    FJK
    
    

    re .99
    	I believe the statement Mr Zereski made was that there would be no
    more transitions affecting sales or sales support. This leaves 
    	. manufacturing
    	. service
    	. operations
    
    at risk.

    re: last few on further sales and sales support layoffs
    
    We have been told that no further layoffs are "planned" for this FY
    (thats until next July for those who don't understands FY, MY, CY, and
    the like). The key word is "planned". That doesn't mean it won't. Just
    that it might not. The layoff machine in Digital is now well tested and
    oiled. I don't suspect it would take all that long to crank it up if
    necessary.

    in one of the notes, someone mentioned that if transitioned, you would
    get medical benefits for one year.  I had heard it was only for the 9
    weeks + caluclated weeks added on for lump sum.
    
    Any clarification??
    
    Paula

    
    
>    get medical benefits for one year.  I had heard it was only for the 9
>    weeks + caluclated weeks added on for lump sum.
    
    Paula,
    
    From what Personnel told us.  Medical benefits
    extend for whatever # of weeks your severance package adds up
    to be, up to a MAXIMUM of one year.  
    
    The package can go to a maximum of 77 weeks, but your benefits
    only last a maximum of a year.
    
    Mark

    re. 104
    
    But you are not including the option of COBRA, which by law must give
    you the option of retaining your medical insurance, at a much higher
    rate, for 18 months.
    
    Karen

    re -1
    
    Right...sorry.
    
    Mark

    Some clarification on medical benefits: you vest at 5 years for
    retirement and at 10 years for medical benefits. Just hitting 55
    doesn't mean you get medical benefits for life unless you have 10+
    years with Digital. Or at least that's how I understand it..(???).
    
    Comments?
    
    FJK
    

    Therefore does that mean if you are 55 and over 10 years in the company
    you not only get TFSO, you also get your full pension and medical
    benefits for life? What if you're not 55 but meet the other
    requirements? Am I safe in assuming that you get your pension at 65,
    but get your medical benefits for one year and then slip into COBRA?
    
    
    -Bert-

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2436    Thursday 24-Oct-1991   <><><><><><><><>

VNS COMPUTER NEWS:                            [Tracy Talcott, VNS Computer Desk]
==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]


 Digital - Lays off 80 employees at its Augusta, Maine, operations
	{The Nashua Telegraph, 23-Oct-91, p. 18}
   The layoffs bring the total number of jobs lost this year to 180, company
 officials said. The company on Tuesday began notifying non-production workers
 - including managers, engineers and supervisors - that they will be out of
 work on Friday, said John Weaver, plant manager. Weaver said the rest of the
 workers will be informed today. The Augusta plant produces printed circuit
 boards. The latest layoffs sparked rumors that the facility may close, but
 Weaver said the corporate headquarters has no intention of shutting down the
 Augusta plant. Digital, one of Augusta's largest businesses, has a payroll in
 excess of $15 million.

    Are you saying that techical (I.E. engineers, s/w or h/w) will not
    be layed off in the future if they are solid performers?
    
    I know here in BTO there is discussion around more layoffs.  Among
    these there is suppose to be technical folks hit.
    
    Can you explain further?
    
    Beth

RE: -2

I hear the words but before they are believed, I would need to see the actions. 
The ONLY action I have seen is that KO stopped some layoffs.  The only number
I know about is that the SAVE cutoff date had moved back closer to July than
last year's which translates to few lower-paid jobs compared with higher paid
jobs.  Since managers in general (your mileage may vary) make more money than
ICs, I would conclude that fewer managers are getting let go compared with the
ICs.  Has Digital's ratio of managers to employees gone up or down??

Bottom line is that there is a creditability problem for Digital's high command
when they talk about TFSO.  It will only be solved by actions not by words.

IMHO,
Lee G.

re .112:

I don't think you can extrapolate from the SAVE cutoff date to the relative
salaries of those who've been "transitioned."  People whose spouses have been
laid off (for example) are probably going to stop making SAVE contributions.
I'd guess that SAVE contributions are down across the board.

    
    Does anyone have an idea of when the layoffs that were supposed to
    happen in Dec. will be? As I have been hinted to as being one to go, I
    just want to know when to expect it. 
    
    Trudy

    i just heared today that the date has been set to january 15, 1992 this
    is only hear say.

    Has anybody heard what the TFSO package is this time around?
    

    Same as last one.
    
    Bob

    
    
    	What this topic needs is a good warm rumor, valid or not!
    
    	I heard....
    
    		Your age, PLUS years of service, PLUS 10 = X
    
    	If X equals or exceeds 70 then you are eligable for 'early
    	retirement', plus a 'package'.  Now what that means, I don't 
    	know.  Does that mean.. 
    
    		Immediate early retirement regardless of age?
    		The same $ benefit as retireing at age 55?  65?
    		
    	The 'package' I'm told is 2 years salary.
    
    	Probably hogwash.
    

    The announcement on early retirement is due tomorrow. (so someone who
    knows here says) But the magic # is 80. add 5 yrs. to your age and 5
    yrs. on to your time at Dec if it adds to 80 you can take it.
    
    Still have the pen in hand. :-)

    I wonder how this would affect employees eligible for early retirement
    today - age 55 and 10 years of service -- if you add 5 to each that's
    only 75!??
    
    What is the youngest I could be, and the shortest amount of time to
    have worked here to qualify??  Someone who is 50 today (add 5 years and
    they are now 55) they would have had to work for the company for 20
    years (add 5 = 25)  this adds up to 80.  Somehow, there seems to be a
    piece missing.
    
    CJ
    

    
    
    	A hell of a lot of people would qualify if the number is 70.
    	A hell of a lot fewer if 80 is the number.  Example,  if 70,
    	there are 6 in my group that qualify.  If 80, none.
    
    

    
    Re: .120
    
    >I wonder how this would affect employees eligible for early retirement
    >today - age 55 and 10 years of service -- if you add 5 to each that's
    >only 75!??
    
    Remember this is specifically an early retirement program.  It is 
    intended as a way to achieve some downsizing by offering the chance to
    retire to some number of employees who don't qualify under the normal
    requirements.  Anyone age 55 is already eligible, but with only 10
    years service won't get much of a benefit.
    
    Steve
    

   Early retirement is one thing, TFSO is another.  Has anybody got any info on 
when, how many, who, why, etc... for the current TFSO ?

Mike.

    Just got back from our weekly staff meeting, and the news was:
    The proposed early retirement program was shot down, AGAIN.
    Ron

    Did some calculations:
    
    An employee hired at age 21 (like me, but in 1975)
    
    In 1967, is now 46 years old, 25 years with DEC, plus 10, scores 81
    
    In 1972, is now 41 years old, 20 years with DEC, plus 10, scores 71
    
    In 1977, is now 36 years old, 15 years with DEC, plus 10, scores 61

Written by the syndicated columnist Bob Greene:

What follows is about a 53-year-old former executive who was "asked to retire"
by the company for which he worked.  He is now a substitute teacher and a clerk
at a shopping mall.  He wrote the poem to sum up what goes through the minds of
people in a position like his.  Some of the specifics apply to his own
particular situation; some to the situations of others with whom he is
familiar.  Here it is; it speaks so well for itself that I can't think of a
thing to add to it.

I wasn't born rich with a prefeathered nest,
But I'll work hard for a living and do my best.
The more education the higher the pay,
So I went to college and earned my way.
Four years of study, books and some beer,
God!  Would I ever graduate from here?
It finally happened on a sunny June day,
They gave me a diploma and I was on my way.
   Had a job lined up with a company I admired,
A few tests, an interview, and I was hired.
I was only 22, a long way from the top,
But I was young and some said the "cream of the crop."
I get to the office early before most arrive,
I like this company and want to survive.
   At 30 things were going just as I planned,
I was liked and admired as a good company man.
Had bright ideas and was loyal to the team,
A solid career had always been my dream.
Had a fine wife and life was great,
Two sons, two cars, and a boat on the lake.
   Finally turned 40 and had a good spot,
"Keep up the good work -- there's room at the top."
It was great to belong and know where I stood,
Salary was great and benefits good.
Though when I turned 50 things seemed to change,
The greetings and handshakes seemed a little bit strained.
Big meetings are held and I'm not on the list,
No memos or briefings on what I'd missed.
Relax, take a day off and think for a while,
I know there's nothing negative in my company file.
   But there's not much mail in my box anymore,
In the hall eyes look down and friends pass by my door.
I talked to the boss -- "Don't worry," I'm told,
"just a few changes, but you're as good as gold."
I felt a lot better and began to relax,
Surely my old friends wouldn't give me the ax.
Then one Friday I got a short note,
"Stop by my office," the president wrote.
"Come in, old buddy, you're sure looking fine,
Sit down, have a cigar, let's talk over old times."
"How's the wife and the kids -- haven't seen 'em for a while."
   Then a pause, a silence, and he lost his Corporate Smile.
"Been thinking about your future and where you fit in,
There's another reorganization coming again."
There was shame on his face and on his forehead sweat,
He squeezed a pencil and you could see his hands were wet.
Sure it's happened to others, but don't you see,
I just can't believe it's happening to me!
"The company's changed though you're a young man still,
New needs and priorities are what we've got to fill."
   I gave it my best for 30 good years,
I tried to say something but had to swallow my tears.
"We can hire three people for what we pay you,
Though not with your talent, that is quite true."
"We'll put out a memo and say you chose to retire,
And won't mention a word about those younger we'll hire."
"There'll be a big party and you'll go out in style,
And remember, stop by the office once in a while."
"Maybe we can have lunch some day soon,
On me and the expense account at the Executive Club Room."
   What was my crime I was never told,
But it was really quite clear I was just too old.
When I get home what will I say to my wife?
What will I do the rest of my life.
Can I find work, where will I go?
Thirty years here is all that I know.
I just don't understand, guess I'll never know why,
So I cleaned out my desk and just said GOODBYE.

--Bob

    
    	Whether the 70 (or 80) plan/package was a real thing or just a 
    	baseless rumor, it did offer a worthwhile proposal, to my mind.
    
	It was an offer, to those that wanted it and could afford it, a
    	chance to leave DEC gracefully, happily, willingly.  Thus sparing
    	those that did not want it, or could not adfford it.
    
	It was an offer that would have enabled DEC to eliminate a lot
    	of the higher paying salaries for people that would have liked
    	to have been elsewhere, now.
    
    	I hope it is recconsidered.  I hope it, or something similiar, is 
    	offered before more people that want to remain and contribute to
    	DEC's recovery are told to leave.
    
    	All previous TFSO packages have been guilty of the same sin....
    	many good people, with valuable skills still needed by DEC, were
    	thrown away because they weren't working where their skills were 
    	needed.  Not their fault.  Somewhere along the line somebody made
    	them a job offer by a DEC manager that they both felt was in the 
    	best interests of themselves, and DEC.  One of them guessed wrong.
    	So, like the baby, they were then thrown out with the bath water.
        Apparently, this process will continue.
    
    	One would think a computer company would have the ability to develope
    	a database of skills available to, AND NEEDED BY, itself.
    
    	One would think. One would also think the effort could be paid for by
    	the bucks put aside for downsizing.
    
      

    Rock solid rumor has it that 28 people are being TFSO'd tomorrow in the
    north east area. In what used to be New England north  its going to be
    about 10%.
    	If you're not busy heads up!
    
    john

    
    Re: .128
    
    Now there's a new twist.  "Rock solid rumor"  Now just what is
    a "rock solid rumor" as opposed to any old rumor?
    
    Steve
    

    John got the package Monday morning.  I guess that means it
    wasn't a rumor after all.

    The Services org at our field site was the focus this time, as Zereski
    said it would be in a recent Field communication. 
    
    This was to be the last major Field org to be "rightsized" this FY, he 
    said. His primary message to us was "that's it in the Field for this FY, 
    so quit worrying and rumoring and concentrate on bringing in REVENUE! 
    
    Fred
    

    And you believed him?
    

    Hey, give him a break.  It's only 5 months til the end of the FY.
    
    Larry

    If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell ya!
    
    Eric