Conference 7.286::digital

	... thing, because I know I never heard of anything like it.  Is it
something that ties up the ground rights, as opposed to the structure?  Is there
some NH politics mingled in here?

	Whatever, you are in a fix, and your attitude, not to mention history, 
is exactly the kind we need out of the folks coming to the field!  How far have
you elevated it?

	Good luck!  We don't need to lose folks like you!

    I'd encourage you to elevate it as high as Dave Grainger -- I'm sure he
    has a strong interest in removing stumbling blocks to get folks
    (especially those who are willing, and ready to sell) back to the
    field.
    
    I'd also suggest you try John Sims, VP Personnel -
    
    best wishes,
    

RE: .0

	I agree with .2. The reasoning is crazy and to lose someone
	valuable in these hard times for something this stupid is
	even more stupid.

	Good luck
						mike

    I've found over the years that the old-fashioned rules of supply
    and demand also often come into play. 

    If they want you as bad as you want them, everyone with an interest
    in this new office will have incentive to find some creative way to 
    quietly make this situation right.
    
    Before elevating, try and see if there's a way around the bureaucracy.
    It is sometimes easier to go around the mountain than climb it. Be
    creative.  Somebody *wants* that office to open.  You want to open that
    office.  Get that person's support, maybe that person or people can be
    creative and find a way to help quietly resolve your situation without
    elevating it. 
        
    Maybe not.  Free advice is worth just what you paid for it.
    
    If you try the quiet, creative approach first, then at least you should
    have more support when you raise hell.  I hope this turns out right.
    
    - Greg Scott

>       <<< Note 1050.4 by MUSKIE::SCOTTG "Greg Scott, Minneapolis SWS" >>>
>                            -< Supply and demand? >-

        Greg,

        I don't agree at all that Jerry should try and "go around" the
     system in this case.  I think that it's absolutely rediculous that
     relo isn't there for him!!  Here's and incredibly talented, proved
     sales person who very much wants to get back out into the field and
     the company is trying to take advantage of him.  That's how I see
     it wanyway and I think it's wrong.

        We need people like Jerry out in the field.  Why should he have
     to use a large portion of his savings to move himself?  The company
     should be doing that without this sort of hassle.  And if he's
     quiet about things how many others are going to get hit with the
     same sort of nonsense?  Why would anyone want to go out to the
     field if there are going to be issues like this??  

        Vicki

    Jerry , I can't believe some of the injustice going on with relo!
    Here you have every right in the world to expect Digital to pick
    up your house on relo and they are trying to stiff you. My roommate
    is getting moved to CA lock stock and condo. It ticks me off that
    a valued sales person can get the run around and my roomie can
    slide in under the CCD veil of relo. As far as I can see, an engineer
    should not be eligible for this type of extra help. 
    
    This is particularly ironic because DEC will be sitting on this
    condo for a good while, it's right down the street from Jerry's.
    
    And I'm looking for a place to live with out benefit of relo.
    
    Gail

    Pardon me people, but I'm having a little problem understanding why
    Digital should bail people out of bad investments.  I dropped about
    9K on the stock market last year, but don't expect KO to help out.
    
    Let's face it, the real estate market in NH and Mass has collapsed,
    just as it did in many other areas previously.  That ain't Digital's
    problem!  You still get all the other relo assistance.  Why not rent it
    out and then rent in your new location until the situation get's better
    as it always does.
    
    Because I want to be free to react when opportunity presents itself
    (soon I think), I sold my house privately, paid a 16K real estate fee
    and moved into a rental.  When it somes time to relocate, I won't
    expect DEC to reimburse me the 16K.  I made a strategic decision and
    there was a short term cost associated with it.
    
    I will depart with the comment, (and I absolutely am not targeting .0)
    that I fear there are still too many DECies who somehow expect to reap
    a windfall associated with relocation.  It ain't gonna happen any
    more!!

re .6:

	I think you misunderstand.  Presumably, Jerry knew when he bought
	the condo that the land was leased.  In some places (Hawaii?), that's
	the way things normally work.

re .7:

	Gail, aren't you the one who got the raise?  Maybe you could buy it.

re .8:

	Jerry's not (yet) complaining about the lousy deal that Digital's
	giving him for his condo.  They won't even consider buying it
	because of some obscure rule.

	Speaking of relocation being a free lunch, the new relocation
	program *does* give a free lunch for temporary living expenses.
	When I relocated, we were paid for our actual living expenses,
	which came to a couple of hundred dollars for the few days we
	stayed at a hotel while waiting for our household goods.
	Under the new program, employees get a flat stipend based on
	number of dependents -- you get $3500 plus $1000 for the 1st dependent
	and $500 for each additional dependent.

    This is a perfect example of a problem that could be solved by the
    mythical DEC OMBUDSMAN.This position could be filled by one of our
    myriad VP's.(I'd love to see it filled by the one who probably made up
    that rule)
    
    Ken

.8>..I'm having a little problem understanding why Digital should bail
.8> people out of bad investments.

I'd  have  a  big  problem  with  Digital  bailing  people  out  of  bad
investments.  It's not the "investment" - I could CARE LESS about losing
some money on the place.  I DO CARE a great  deal  that  customers  have
been told that an office is going to be opened in their area - that they
have a salesperson of 14 years experience with DEC will be running it  -
that  a secretary has been hired to help open the office - that a junior
sales person has been hired to help open the office ...  and that things
are being "delayed" because of ....  well ...  you fill in the blanks.

.8> Why not rent it out and then rent in your new location until the 
.8> situation get's better as it always does.

I'd sooner go ahead and declare bankruptcy.  I can't A-F-F-O-R-D  to  pay
rent  and  take  the risk of not being able to renting  the condo...we're
talking *one* salary increase in FIVE years and two kids in college.

.8> I will depart with the comment, (and I absolutely am not targeting .0)
.8> that I fear there are still too many DECies who somehow expect to reap
.8> a windfall associated with relocation.  It ain't gonna happen any
.8> more!!

If I stay with it ...  this will be my 4th move with DEC  -  I  have  to
make  as much as $1 on a relocation - I lost *significantly* on the last
one.  I have but one goal in mind and that is to  do  for  this  company
what I can do best - SELL, and, I have a track record to prove it.

Opening a remote office requires a different and special "mentality" and
level  of  experience  -  I  have the  "mentality" and experience.  Five
years from now I have every intention of saying "Here, DEC,  here's  $25
million   in   profitable  business  and  each  and  every  customer  is
*satisfied*.  That is *all* that I want to do, and, am  bogged  down  in
bureaucratic internal paperwork.

If I can get to the field and sell good profitable business for Digital,
the  rest  will  come  naturally ...  you may not understand ...  I LOVE
selling!  That's ALL that I want to do!
                 ^^^
Jerry

RE:.11 by CURIE::BEELER "Really, this is my first time.."

.8>..I'm having a little problem understanding why Digital should bail
.8> people out of bad investments.

> It's not the "investment" - I could CARE LESS about losing some money on 
> the place.  

If so,  why not sell it?  The DEC purchase program will usually give you a 
price lower than you can get in 60-90 days on the market.

If you have no equity at the current prices,  mail in the keys and sign over
the deed and let the bank worry about it.  (Called a "Voluntary deed" or a 
"deed in lu of foreclosure").  Check this with a lawyer,  as state laws vary
a lot.  This is better than bankruptcy or foreclosure for both you and the 
bank.

What's the real problem here?


Phil

    re: .12
    
    > What's the real problem here?

    If Jerry owned a house, Digital/its agent, would make him an offer.  He
    may not like it, but he would get an offer.  If he rented a
    house/apartment, I suspect they would buy-out the rest of his lease. 
    However, he owns some sort of condo and Digital/its agent won't do
    anything.
    
    Doesn't sound like 'the right thing' to me.
    
    Bob

    re: .0
    
    I hope you are aware that there are provisions in all the relo policies
    for "exceptions". These have to be approved at a higher than usual
    level, but these provisions are made to order for your situation. 
    Clearly, your situation is sort of nonstandard, and the purpose of the
    exception process is to put the situation in front of someone who can
    see the INTENT of the policy. Details on relo exceptions are in any
    policy manual.
    
    Your case seems to be so straightforward that I would be very suprised
    if you didn't prevail. People like you are really needed in the field.
    Follow the exception process and I bet you'll be OK.
    
    Don't assume anyone is intentionally standing in your way.  Probably
    the person who is saying "no" has not been delegated the authority to
    make exceptions - just find someone who is.  i really don't think
    anyone is your advesery here.
    
    Good luck and good selling!
    
    GT

    I have too much equity to simply walk away from it, or, believe me, I'd
    do it in a second.
    
    The "lease" that we're talking about, the reason that DEC won't offer
    me ANYTHING...
    
    
    
    			$42 /month
    
    and, it's solid until the year 3020 ...
    
    The home purchase program is more for convienence than anything else,
    just like the trade-in program on some of of our hardware - it's a
    convienence to the customer - makes it easier to do business with DEC.
    
    Am I to interpret this $42/month is much too significant a risk to
    take?  I wonder if the sale of one 9000 may just cover that?
    
    The whole thing is depressing...
    
    :-(
    Jerry

    You write a good case on .0, and you've clearly spent some effort here
    in DIGITAL with the discussion.  I'm curious to know if you've also
    started working the exception process mentioned back a few replies?
    And/or elevating this thrugh Grainger, Colatosti and/or others who have
    a real stake in COD and its efforts to get folks out to the field?
    
    I repeat what I said earlier -- the fact that you've sold before,
    you're willing to relocate, AND that you're opening a new office make
    it clear that time is of the essence here -- Use that as an opening
    argument and go to it!
    
    Best wishes,
    

    re: .16
    
    Let me see if I understand.  The property on which your condo is built
    is leased from someone until the year 3020.  Your units share of the
    lease expense is $42/month.  However, because you only own the building
    and not the land, Digital/its agent is unwilling to do the normal
    relo-buyout.
    
    Bob

    Jerry, you have my empathy. I relocated and HE offered me what appeared
    to be fair market value less three months carrying costs. A local real
    estate broker "guaranteed" he could get me fair market within 90 days.
    Well, I just did not want to get caught with two mortgages so I sold to
    HE taking (to me anyway) a significant loss from my purchase price.

    90 days later, when the unit was still unsold, I congratulated myself
    on cutting my losses. The unit eventually sold after 2 price cuts.
    Digital ( I believe) is the big loser on those cuts, not HE.

    I agree, go for an exception. If that fails, go for a rental. You can
    hire a local management company and cut your losses on a monthly basis.
    You can also hold the property this way until someday the market may
    come back. Your third choice is look at the economic impact to your
    family and make the best personal choice, hard as it may be.

    You are in a difficult spot but at least it still has alternatives.

    good luck,

    Barry
                                                                       

Jerry,

Sounds like you've got a selling job to do.

/john

Assuming that .18's interpretation of your situation is correct, it 
seems that the only additional risk (i.e., in addition to the risks
if yours was a standard home or condo) to Digital or its agent is 
that it would have to make lease payments as long as the property 
was unsold.

Maybe you could guarantee that you'd make the $42/month payments
until the unit was sold. Or maybe you could offer to put $500 in
an escrow account to cover lease payments (about a year's worth) if
the unit didn't sell quickly. That might help you get the exception
referred to by some previous noters.

Just some thoughts.  BTW, I sympathize with you. Good luck.

    I would go back to whoever "they "are who want you to open the sales
    office and tell them no can do. If "they" really want you there and
    the blesssings came from a higher authority then this is nothing to
    even consider.You would really be surprized if KO's secretary got
    wind of this as bad as the company needs bottom line dollars. If 
    "they" want you there then "they" can make it happen, if it doesn't
    happen-Well Welcome To the DANGLE THE CARROT CLUB..

I won't address Digital's obligations in the sales office matter,
but I have some observations on the real estate aspects of the deal....

> Assuming that .18's interpretation of your situation is correct, it 
> seems that the only additional risk (i.e., in addition to the risks
> if yours was a standard home or condo) to Digital or its agent is 
> that it would have to make lease payments as long as the property 
> was unsold.

I would imagine that HE's problem is less with the cost of the lease
than with the fact that the property arrangement is "unusual" for this part
of the country, and that this gives them fear that the property will be
less saleable.  The running cost of the lease ought not be a problem.
If they (HE) are in the habit of accepting condos in general, they are 
used to paying running commons fees, and would thus be used to a continuing
cash outflow as a carrying charge.

Has anybody ever been denied HE benefits based on an unusual easement
or zoning deficiency?  That would be a precedent for their being selective
about properties to take on.

You do mean the lease runs until 2020 or 2030, don't you?
A 1000 year lease sounds odd besides everything else, and a thirty
or forty year lease could possibly mean that a standard mortgage
would exceed the remainder of the lease, which would (in bankers'
theory) cause funding problems for a potential buyer.

- tom]

Looks like .0 is another litmus test for the
"less-red-tape-lets-get-the-job-done" Digital.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out and I hope for .0's and
Digital's sake it gets resolved. When the company begins to frustrate
people with this kind of dedication and loyalty we will all lose.

Lee

.24> "less-red-tape-lets-get-the-job-done" Digital.

    I want to make one thing clear.  This is the essence of this note.  I
    don't believe that anyone is "incompetent" or derelict in doing their
    job.  They are doing what they are told to do.  Personally, COD is
    one of the best programs that I've seen in my 14 years at DEC - but -
    this "red tape" is just about to wear me to a frazzle.  Yes, I've seen
    worse, and, "this too shall pass", and, I'm doing to do my best to work
    within the "channels" available to me, and, God willing, as fast as
    humanly possible...before I crater.

    I received six different written offers after COD II.  I interviewed
    all of the locations, and, chose the one which I thought that I could
    produce more, fastest, for Digital.  Now, of all of my friends that I
    know received offers concurrent with mine - they're gone - in the field
    and working.  This Sales Executive is still trying to get the basic
    rudiments of relocation working.

    I'm going to cross my fingers and pray that sooner or later this log
    jamb will break and I can hit the road selling - and - concurrent with
    that, I'm continuing to make contact with the largest customers in the
    area of the new office, and, beginning to build the relationships which
    are so very valuable to the selling process.  Yes, I know that I'm
    taking a "risk" of sorts for if this doesn't "happen" there's going to
    be some very VERY unhappy customers, and, potential customers.

    Yes, my nerves are just about thoroughly shot, and, sleep is getting
    hard to come by, and, all of the other attendant problems, but, I love
    this company, and, I love selling, and, I'm going to hold on as long as
    possible.

    With respect to the "real estate" problem.  My neighbor, two doors
    down, ran into the same identical problem (he's in the same condo
    complex and has been here for eight years).  According to him, and,
    note that this is "second hand", when he talked to someone (I believe
    in real estate) it was sort of a "well_this_is_the_first_time_this_has
    happened_and_it_was_easier_to_say_no" type of response.  Needless to
    say, I was devastated.

    I'll continue to "keep the faith" as long as possible.  That's about
    all that I can say.

    With respect to earlier notes and Home Equity...HE has no problems with
    it, they made it clear that it is DIGITAL's decision and not theirs.

    Yes, the "red tape" has GOT to be broken ... I can't help but think how
    much "risk" about $20 million in sales, over the next few years, would
    cover.

    Waiting...drinking coffee...praying...smoking too much...I remain,

    Sales Executive in limbo,
    Jerry

    Jerry,
    
    	I empathize with your situation.  And as I have been following
    the notesfile, I have the feeling that you are so distraught about
    your plight that perhaps you are stressing yourself out.
    
    	Nothing is worth your health.  You are doing the best that
    you can, and in a time like this, I think it is best to just relax.
    I have come to the opinion that 'Whatever will be, will be."
    As the song goes, "Casera, sera,".
    
    	
    Regards, H

>                  <<< Note 1050.26 by RIPPLE::YARBOROUG_HE >>>
>                              -< Stress can hurt >-

>    As the song goes, "Casera, sera,".
 
Or even  'Que sera sera'

Craig

        And, of course, if the corporation were full of people happy to
        let "whatever will be, will be", then we might as well all pack up
        and go home. It is the kind of enthusiasm for selling (or
        designing or maintaining etc etc etc)  that one sees in the likes
        of Jerry, that give us an edge. If jerry were to take the "Que
        Sera sera" approach, then he would be happy to stay where he is,
        and/or take a $5M sales budget instead of a $50M budget.
        
        q

    I haven't been in this notes file for 6 months, but someone told me
    about this note, so here I am.
    
    Jerry, I want to tell you first, to hang in there.  I know it's tough 
    because I went thru the same thing.  I was in COD I...one of the guinea 
    pigs.  I relocated from Colo Spgs to Minneapolis.  COD created all kinds of
    hell for the relo people within Digital...their work load increased
    dramatically!  The last week on my old job they *finally* got around
    to appraising my house...most of the delay was due to getting
    signatures in Colorado, Minnesota, Chicago and various offices around
    Boston.  They couldn't start *anything* until the signatures were
    there....delays of 4 or 5 weeks over the approval process for COD II.
    
    So.  I was in training at Parker St when I found out (late on a Friday
    afternoon) that my house appraised below what any reasonable human
    could *ever* expect.  (5 acres, indoor swimming pool, jacuuzi, etc)
    I had $159K into it and built it over the past 17 years by sweat
    equity, so it really had more value than $159... The 3rd party offer
    was $112.5.  I was insulted, angry, and feeling desparate!  I still
    had 2 weeks of training left and during breaks I sent mail, made phone
    calls, and pursued every lead possible.  The COD office had their
    phones on the answering maching ALL the time...I was in class and
    couldn't be reached directly so I found out who sat across the aisle
    and called her...that's the only way I got thru.
    
    My new manager and the district manager did their best by requesting
    an exception and trying to following it thru, but of course, they always
    got the answering machine.  Finally, on one successfull call, I found
    out that a VIP relo person was located in the building where my (3rd
    week) class was located.  I looked up her pole location and stood 
    around waiting for a chance to talk.  She was extremely helpful and
    understanding!  I felt like someone actually cared...and I found out
    that I wasn't alone.  I also found out that a new exception policy was
    in the works and waiting VP approval.  Based on her recommendation,
    I cancelled the movers (scheduled the following week), and returned
    to Colorado for Christmas.
    
    Things dragged on over Christmas and New Years with folks on vacation.
    It was the worst experience of my life, waiting by the phone, no
    mail contact, not knowing if I was going to move or stay.  Fortunately
    the wonderful folks at the Denver ACT gave me a backup opportunity, but
    I had committed to MPO and wanted to see the thing thru.
    
    Finally, 6 weeks after the appraisal was revealed, my new mgr said it
    looked like the exception was going to be approved...so I flew
    back to Minnesota.  Two days later I received the approval, then
    had to reschedule the move and all the other details that I had
    worked out and then cancelled.  Talk about lost productivity!
    
    I still lost $20K *real* equity, ie...money actually spent, but now
    after 3 months here, I know I made the right decision.  I love my
    job and the people I work with are super!  The field is a different
    place, and needs people who can tough it out...I guess this was my
    initiation ;^)
    
    Greg said to try to go around the system.  The system is Digital...
    I say, do whatever works to get to the people who make the decisions.
    People are just doing their jobs, and they are doing the best they
    can to follow policy.  Find the people who make the policy.  The people
    who want to hire you should be involved.  They should know exactly what
    you are going thru.  It meant alot to me to have my new mgmt in my
    corner.  It's hard enough to relocate (and I'm just beginning to
    understand all that I've been thru these past months), so you don't
    need to feel like you are in limbo.  It's a tragedy to get left out
    in a system that needs you.  Don't give up.  It will work out in the
    end.  Do what it takes to take care of yourself.  That means exercise
    to release some of the stress.  Cut down on food, liquor and smoking.
    Get in touch with your feelings so they don't give you ulcers.  Try
    to stay busy - I know it's hard to do, you don't think of anything
    else but this problem.
    
    	Sorry if I've rambled on too long...I really tried to simplify and
    summarize what happened.  Writing this brought back some of the pain,
    yet I'm still a devoted Deccie and somehow I knew Digital would do the
    right thing.
    
    	Sherry
    

    Well, I'm going to take Sherry's advice and do my best to hang in
    there.  I've got to get to my new location and start selling so I found
    a house that I can get into and all I need to do is drain my life's
    savings, which I've done.  I've put my place on the market and will be
    making payments both in New Hampshire and California, I'm going to
    sell my car and get out from under those payments (take the fleet plan
    car) and I've sold some furniture that I can really do without.  I only
    wish I were a religious person, 'cause I could use some good prayer
    about now...

    ....so....any spare food y'all have around...send mail and I'll tell
    you where to send it!!

    Am I *really* doing this?  God...I guess I really do love selling...

    I talked to someone in 'real estate' and tried to get an explanation
    as to why property that was FHA approved, HUD backed, financed by mortgage
    companies .... was such a significant risk for Digital...on that subject,
    I think that I have given up....I don't really know...it's so very de-
    pressing that I don't think that I can continue to pursue that avenue.

    Yeah, I sure wish I had the guts to write Grainger...the customers out
    there were told that a Sales Executive with 14 years of experience in
    selling would be there in early March (which I should have been) and
    they are not exactly "happy"....I had the occasion to make *one* sales
    call and managed to stop a Novel network from going in...One customer
    told me that it took him *weeks* to find someone to give him a DECmove
    quote...and the national account manager told me that this guy wants
    to buy a 6200 system....that alone might, just might, cover the "risk"
    that real estate says they're taking with my property.

    WHEN are we going to find a way to cut through this blessed red tape
    and get to the business of satisfying our customers FIRST ... all for a
    $52/month issue....depressing....genuinely...

    \Jerry/