Conference 7.286::digital

	Well, first you have to have a need to know.. :-) 

	Seriously, try Digital Security and/or the Government systems
	group. I suspect that someone there would know..

							mike

    re.:2611.1
    
    "Well, first you have to have a need to know.. :-)" isn't really that
    strange/funny.... The first thing asked, when it comes to security
    clearances are concerned is..., "do you have a need to know"....
    
    Usually, clearances are given for specific reasons. Even if Digital
    were to grant a clearance to the author of .0..... the customer would
    most likely NOT grant access to their secure areas (at least not
    without an escort). If the customer wanted Digital in their secure
    area, they would grant the clearance based on that need...
    
    When I had my clearance, they would have to request a new clearance
    after each leave or if I traveled in/out of areas which were considered
    sensative areas...
    
    If a security clearance is monitored correctly, the holder of that
    clearance becomes a little restricted when it comes to freedom/rights.
    
    If the customer to-which you are in need of the clearance just happens
    to be military, you can well expect to have every possible grain of
    your life overturned, during the clearance investigation. When they are
    done, they will know more about you than you know about yourself..
    
    I know this because I'm still running into friends and relatives who
    complain of the time they were asked questions about me, from the FBI
    and other federal agencies....
    
    Well, good luck in your search for clearance.!
    
    Bob G.
    

Ask your contact at the customer site. If he/she agrees that a clearance 
would be usefull, then they can point you to the right agency via their
companies security people. 

In my case, I needed to get into LLNL and Sandia several times a day, and 
therefore needed a "Q" clearance. A cutomer contact "sponsored" me, and
the D.O.E. became the investigating agency. After filling out the appropriate
(mountain) of paperwork, I was investigated and granted a clearance.

Start to finish the process took about 15 months.

Personally, I think the process was a pain in the a**, and wouldn't do it unless
absolutely necessary.

John D.

    Dom,
    
    I would contact Corporate security and they should beable to help!
    
    Customers will always have the ability to restrict your visits!
    
    I you have never had a clearance through these customers, then this
    will take quite awhile.
    
    Having gone through clearences in the Army, I had very few porblems
    in getting a clearance, but still the customer has the right to
    restrict you at their site.
    
    You need to ask if a clearence is necessary or can the customer escort
    you till they get tired of doing that and then you will be free, in
    most companies to move around freely.
    
    RAZ
    

    Thanks for the replies...  I will check it out and see how much of a 
    hassle it is befor I continue...
    
    Regards, Dom
    

    If it's the Gov't., refer to section 8.09 of the Orangebook "Government
    Security Clearances"

    
    	It's also not cheap!
    	/john (who had Secret, but not 'Q')

    
    
    		At the time I was going thru Q-clearance ('86-'87)
    	for Los Alamos , the costs were appx. 15-20K per clearance
    	but it was never quite clear whether the Lab paid for it, 
    	or if the costs were cross-charged to Mc Donnell Douglas.
    						(Employer then.)
    		Took them 14 months, they talked to every neighbor
    	I ever had, teachers from high school, supervisors ,etc.
    	I gathered they were looking for the typical drug users,
    	heavy gamblers, any incurred debt which they felt was too
    	great for the applicant to handle (led to selling info.) and
    	of course unlawful behavior of any kind. The few people I
    	spoke to who had been interviewed were not usually given
    	a reason for their investigation. Made a few neighbors
    	wonder about me.........nothing new about that.
    
    		Pablo
    

The lower clearance levels are not so hard to get.  If all you need
is a "Confidential" it is no big deal.   "Secret" has more paperwork.
Any higher than that and it gets real serious and takes longer.
I used to know a guy with a Top Secret, and he said it was a real pain
having to give a debriefing every time he came back from a skiing
vacation in Switzerland...

    re.: .9
    
    Ya, and I was given a "top secret w/ incription" (this meant I had
    access to information in "pre-incription form, as well as incription
    keys) which made travel nearly impossible. There were some places 
    I just could not go.. My wife (in Germany with me) was constantly 
    interviewed as to her activities (i.e. where did you go and why), 
    in country... She had also been warned this would happen. 
    
    Oh, and after we got married, my clearance had been suspended for a
    short time, while my wife and her family were investigated...
    
    My advise to .0 would be to be real sure you REALLY need this clearance
    before going forward...! I'm sure that your customer and Digital will
    make that decision for you, anyway..!
    

    My last BI (background investegation) cost my employer a bundle.  I had
    over 70 agencies checking my every movement, and even Bowel Movements.
    
    The agent told me that He never saw so many agents assigned to one 
    clearance, he told me the price was more than many peoples salaries.
    
    I think the number was over $50K. 
    
    Just for Secret is not bad, maybe ten grand.
    
    

The payoff for going through all the aggravation is when you get to invoke
the "freedom of information" act. You are able to get a complete transcript
of the investigating agents finished report. It contains everything they dug up,
and who they got it from. 

It's a real hoot reading what your neighbors spilled to the Feds when grilled
about you.

I swear, they talked to people I didn't know I knew!

John D.

    Thanks for all of the replies and call's...  I now have contacts to
    SECURE a security clearance and have found out that there are many
    kinds/levels of security clearances one must get for different gov't
    organization contracts.
    
    
    I'd like to give a special thanks to Steve Bold from Dallas for
    offering assistance if needed and some insight as to what it is like
    to acquire security clearances.
    
    Regards, Dom

    In 1980 I worked for a research firm and applied for several security
    clearances:  Top Secret, MI (Military Intelligence), NATO Cosmic, and
    CNWDI (Critical Nuclear Weapons Design Information).  I had them all in
    just a few months, nobody interviewed any of my references, and at the
    time I was sharing lodgings with a citizen of Venezuela.
    
    But they did make me sign a special statement that I had in the past
    smoked marijuana.
    
    Go figure...

     
    I have an active secrete level and in my case it was a long
    investagation process because I hold duel citizenship. DISCO spent a
    great deal of time verifying that I havn't traveled to any restricted
    place on a forigen non-US passport (if I'd have had a forigen passport
    it would have been very easy to prove I hadn't, but since I didn't,
    I guess that they were making sure that I didn't have one). Anyhow, the 
    investagation took the better part of a year, and I got to swear a
    loyalty oath. All though I have nothing to hide, I still felt violated
    by the process. 
    
    By the way, I think that even after you are investagated and 
    given the clearence, there is still a pretty hefty cost the corporation
    shoulders annually to maintain your clearence.
    
    Deb

    A "Q" rating is given from the DOE (department of Energy). The DOE has
    a different ranking then the DOD (Department of Defence). I Hold a Q
    with the DOE and a "secret" with the DOD. I've been told that they're
    roughly the same. I found it a real hoot that they (DOE and DOD) will
    not honor each other's BI. They will recheck to their own satisfaction.
    My Q took 8 months to complete. My secret took 5 months. At one point,
    Digital attempted to upgrade my Secret to TOP-secret and I was handed a
    form that had only 3 questions. My name, my SSN, and "WHY". I guess
    the rest would be in the first clearence. I found it rather odd.
    
    	By the way, try as I might, I was never able to answer WHY to there
    satisfaction, and was refused.
    
    jim
    

    re.14  But did you ever inhale?
    
    I also had the CNWDI 'rider' on the secret clearance. As a co-op
    student, this meant that I had to watch a lot of open safes when
    someone had to go to the can.
    
    I do know that especially with private contractors now doing a lot
    of the background checking, the checks are much more thorough...
    ..to the point of becoming witch hunts in some cases 

    I thought that it was generally considered a no-no to let other people
    know that you had a clearance of any sort.

    No, not really. You just have to be prepared to kill them on behalf of
    your government if they divulge further...
    
    I recall at one point, something that we were doing with the Australian
    DSTO (defence science and technology Org) involved us and them getting
    U.S. DOD clearances. THey said, no problem. they had their own direct
    contacts...
    
    An associate was contracting for DSTO, developing some software to
    simulate the eventual output of a system they had. He was thorough,
    mocking up a large data-set to demo it. When a U.S. DOD spook saw the
    demo, he stood up and stood in front of the screen, saying that they
    person who had written the code, couldn't look at it. He couldn't
    understand why my associate had managed to come up with such accurate
    test data. My associate refered him to a technical journal, that
    pointed out that my assoicate had published one of the first papers on
    this "bleeding edge" military technology, over 15 years prior. OF
    course, he knew what the output would look like...
    
    q
    

    Re:
>>     <<< Note 2611.19 by SNOC01::NICHOLLS "Problem? ring 1-800-382-5968" >>>
>>
>>    I thought that it was generally considered a no-no to let other people
>>    know that you had a clearance of any sort.
>>
    I had to snicker at this.  Why would it be considered a "no-no"?

    Considering that at any secure installation, that there are enough
    "spies" watching EVERYONE entering and leaving.  They already know who
    has a clearance.  Beside that, the people who are asked during the
    Background or Extended Background investigation, know why they are
    being asked questions.

    Now it probably isn't a good idea to blab that you have a clearance. 
    It would be an invitation to being set up for blackmail.

    Jim Morton

    
    Ref: .19 and .21
    
    Yes, it is considered a no-no to let other people know that you had a 
    clearance of any sort. This is handled by the DOD and DOE policy
    manuals and your clearence could be taken away for diviluging such 
    information.
    
      You can snicker all you want, but as you said this is a good way
    to have yourself set up for blackmail or other inverted activities.
    
    former  NSA/ddss

    Ya... if your clearance is "active", it is definately not cool to talk
    about the clearance, the level of clearance, etc.... 
    
    My clearance has been "inactive" and "declassified" over 20 years ago.
    I feel safe in talking about what I had for a clearance. STILL though
    will never talk about details of my responsibilities... cause most is
    still used today, in the Army... 
    
    BTW... if you "talk in your sleep"... don't apply for high level
    clearances 8^)......
    
    Bob G.
    

    
    I had a secret one YEARS ago. I was on a "special" assignment and
    was told I couldn't even mention what the name was, nor talk about 
    anything about it for 7 years after it was completed.  Now don't 
    ask because that was OVER 20 years ago.
    

re Note 2611.24 by SPECXN::BLEY:

        My first employer was the Mitre corporation, where everyone
        is expected to obtain at least a secret clearance.

        One of the rules we were given is that we were not to display
        our badge in public, and one of the reasons given is that the
        wrong people could learn that we had a clearance that way.

        To this day I instinctively pocket my Digital badge when I
        leave the building.

        Bob

    re: Divulging clearance levels, BI's
    
    I guess this is one of those 'Black Hat' (a.k.a. OPSEC) rules.  One of
    the main reasons a background investigation is done is not only to find
    out if you are a loyal American, but also to find out any info that may
    be used against you for blackmail reasons.
    
    At my old job at the Nevada Test Site, security made a big deal if you
    displayed your badge outside of NTS facilities.  Here at Los Alamos
    (another big DoE facility), security briefings also state that you
    shouldn't display your badge.  Of course more then 50% of the lab
    employees and contractors do wear their badge while in town.
    
    I've found it best to follow all of securities rules and regulations. 
    Certain US security clearances still carry the death penalty...
    
    --- Gavin

    re .26
    
>    I've found it best to follow all of securities rules and regulations. 
>    Certain US security clearances still carry the death penalty...
    
    Sounds a little excessive, but there must be a reason...
    
    /Butch

    In a former life when I worked in the S2 (security shop) of an
    artillery regiment, the BI of one of our 2nd Lt's came back with a
    problem.  One of the statements that you affirm in your application for
    a clearance or BI is that you and "none of your family" is now nor has
    ever been associated with a list of "subversive" organizations.  Well,
    it happened that 2Lt Gunnar Freiwald's father (a German immigrant) had
    donated $10 to the Socialist Worker's Party in 1935.  The problem was
    cleared up by having him sign another piece of paper stating that yes
    he really didn't know that his father had done this then he got his Top
    Secret clearance as well as a few other named clearances.
    
    ed

> The payoff for going through all the aggravation is when you get to invoke
> the "freedom of information" act. You are able to get a complete transcript
> of the investigating agents finished report. It contains everything they dug up,
> and who they got it from. 

> It's a real hoot reading what your neighbors spilled to the Feds when grilled
> about you.

  This opens up another can of worms. I imagine a lot of the divulged infor-
mation is funny, but some isn't. Knowing that Uncle Sam thinks you are {fill
in the blank} is bad enough. Knowing which friend or neighbor said this could
jeopardize the friendship. 

>Knowing which friend or neighbor said this could
>jeopardize the friendship. 

Gee, I would think that your act of describing me as a <whatever>
would be what "jeopardized" the friendship.  My knowing that you
called me <whatever> only seems right and proper.

Of course, I believe that one owes a greater responsibility towards
ones friends than to the government, so this might colour my
judgement somewhat.

... to have enough time to wander around and spend copious amounts of time
 looking up arcania in 1935.....

 Perhaps fishing (without worm) is a more "productive" use of one's time...
 One comes away with greater serenity.

 Of course, one then loses the "intimate" knowledge of one's co-workers,
 and random strangers... sigh... gossip would die on the vine...

Oh well... back to Unix, work, etc. Gotta keep those hands busy, lest the
 devil find them...

:-/         (oh heck... what's the tongue-in-cheeky-face????)

    
    damn shame it take spooks to find out whether one is a loyal 'murican.
    if my word isn't good enough, they obviously don't need my services.

      And if you were a counterintelligience agent... Would your word be
    good enough.
    
                                      Steve J.

    
    but of course ;^

re a few back and having been checked you're not blackmailable...


The whole point of not publicising your level of clearance is 
not because you have a dodgy background and could be manipulated 
to misbehave be threats of revelation ofsaid background but that having 
been identified as valuable to manipulate you would be put into as situation 
for which you would be blackmailable about.

    
    every one is blackmailable; it does not have to be true information
    that you have. 
    
    
    

    re: blackmail and plublicizing clearance [levels]
    
    I wouldn't say the point of not publicizing your clearance and or its'
    level is due to possible manipulation attempts.  If I were a secret
    agent man and wanted classified information, I'd visit the TRW's,
    Lockheeds, and other big DoD/DoE contractors.  On the other hand, I did
    overstate the imporatance of a BI and how it relates to blackmail.
    
    As to being identified as valuable for manipulation... Wow; I didn't
    know that anyone cared. :)
    
    --- Gavin

    
    You forget or don't know that;you start on a mole at a lower level and 
    then help them get into the TRW's, Hughes etc., by using other moles
    the process takes about ten to twenty years. but like a tree it takes
    a few years to bare fruit.