Conference 7.286::digital

 >> So take a minute to lean back in your chair and let a grin cross your
 >> face.  You're entitled.

     Thanks Bob, that was nice.

	It has been a long time since we all could grin.

	8-)

    If all this stuff is true, I hope the airline account reps are walking
    into American, Delta, UAL, etc.  They can replace acres of equipment
    with alpha's, improve response times, save electricity, and through in
    the capabability of one to one marketing to boot, which is why there
    are frequent flyer programs in the first place.
    
    gc

    
    Bob, you are right. I saw the DVN yesterday and it was one of the most
    exciting DVN's I've seen in a long time. If anybody gets the chance to
    see the tape it is definitely worth the hour or so to watch it. One of
    the more impressive statements I heard was the one about the healthcare
    company that did some kind of analysis that took 9 hours on a $20
    million super computer and only took 27 minutes on the Digital $1
    million 8400(?). The even better news is the story I read last night in
    the paper that quoted Palmer as saying that we already had 75 orders
    for these systems BEFORE the official press release on them....Let's
    just hope this good news continues and we don't shoot oursleves in the
    foot by promising more than we can deliver.....
     

    RE .2
    
    The Turbolaser 8400 systems would be absolutely fabulous boxes for the
    high demanding job of running Airline reservation systems at Sabre
    (American), Worldspan (Northwest, TWA, Delta), Apollo (United) and
    System One (Continental, US Air).  We have one teensy weensy detail to
    get through.  It's not the hardware.  Hardware is not hard.  It's the
    software, specifically the Airline programming language (ALC) and the
    database running on the IBM whopper machines under CICS and TPF.  This
    is where the tough nut is to crack.  I'm sure they would love to rid
    themselves of those very expensive water heaters down in Kansas City
    and Oklahoma City in the Sabre bunker but to convert all that code to
    run in a relational database model on 64-bit UNIX.  Holly Molly Rocky,
    that's a big job.
    
    Ellison's presentation was great as was BP's.  We should have quite a
    few customers queing up to our barn door for one or two of these
    systems. 
    
    Hey Digital Marketing:  Want a tip, make a copy of this tape and send
    it to the 500 CEO's of the Fortune 500 with a note that reads, "Want to
    find out ways to save a ton of money and improve your organizations
    productivity and competitiveness?"  Step 1: open VCR cassette.  Step
    2: take out cassette and load into VCR.  Step 3: watch film.  Step 4:
    call meeting with V.P I.S. and ask him to watch the tape and to see
    about when a meeting with Digital can be set up.
    
    It's only a thought....
    
    Mav

    Displacing SABRE is a long way off for exactly the reasons you specify
    but don't write the airlines off. The major airlines all have huge
    databases sitting under materials management and maintenance
    applications. Five years ago the worlds largest Oracle database was the
    maintenance system at British Airways, it's a little small by today's
    standards (60GB) but at the time it was hot stuff.  

  RE: .5

  If it makes any difference, we do have CICS available on Digital Unix. It's
  in field test at the moment and further details are available in
  RDGENG::CICS

  Geoff Winn
  CICS Development Program

    With a product/package this good, lets hope that it is Marketed in
    a sufficient way. What I would like to see is some big spend in TV
    adverts (never carried out in UK to my knowledge). Yes that would
    be unusual for this type of product but it looks like this is something
    out of the ordinary!!!!.
    
    something to shout about eh!!
    
    patrick

                     <<< Note 3805.9 by PAMSIC::STEPHENS >>>
                  -< re: .5 nit..Sabre is buried in Tulsa... >-

    

Amadeus, a joint venture between many airlines, has been working on a
replacement to SABRE for some time. Last I heard the back-end of this
new system is still IBM mainframes. It would not surprise me a bit if
IBM themselves have more resident engineers on this project than we have
developers in our OSF/1 (oops, UNIX) group.

Only three years ago I visited the machine roomS of Air France's world
wide reservation system. It made me dizzy. Just the 10-15 meter long
line printers with the multi km paper rolls .. were impressive by
themselves. Not to mention entire floors in the building with nothing but
disk drives. The MIS manager proudly showed me a chart where their
systems totalled a wopping 23 MIPS ....

But if we can do IBM PC emulation on the Alpha, who says we cannot emulate
an IBM mainframe :-)

>Per

    There was an employee of Sabre sniffing carefully around the TurboLaser
    demo at Anaheim DECUS in December 94.

    Does nothing about the hype generated by the recent announcement (only
    heard about, did not attend) not remind anyone of the so-called
    mainframe-killer VAX 9000?  Where is that today?  What's the difference
    this time around?
    
    Doug

    The VAX 9000 only ran VMS.  The 8200/8400 run UNIX and NT, therefore
    they are considered open.  The VAX 9000 cost a lot more than the
    8200/8400.  The VAX 9000 was a 32-bit machine, just like the
    competition.
    
    So, what is different this time is that we have an open system, that is
    very cheap, and has 64-bit chip that no one else has.
    
    To me, this is a VERY big difference from the VAX 9000.
    

By the time the VAX 9000 actually shipped, you could get equal compute
performance with a very small number of RISC workstations.  Tell you any-
thing?

___Pete

>    The VAX 9000 only ran VMS.  The 8200/8400 run UNIX and NT, therefore
 
     NT ?  Is the 8200/8400 on the HCL ?

    The VAX 9000 was not only proprietary/VMS, not just 32-bit in a 32-bit
    world, and more than just expensive to *purchase*, it was/is also very
    expensive to maintain.  It immediately developed an undesirable
    reputation for being an *extremely* tempermental machine.  
    
    You can probably bet your (whatever) that these new Alpha systems will 
    be much less expensive/difficult to maintain, and have the excellent
    reputation for uptime of our other Alpha systems.  
    
    Feeling more confident in Calif., 
    
    M.
    

    Another major difference between the AlphaServer 8400 and the 9000;
    this one is selling. I understnad we've already booked about 70 of these
    systems, and the forecasts for them in Q4 look pretty good.
    
    

    Oh God....someone mentioned the no no word, VAX 9000.  Well we need to
    be real clear here folks.  
    
    The VAX 9000 was an unheard of failure in the marketplace.  We spent as
    a corporation on R&D, Manufacturing, Engineering, Support Services in
    the Field, Sales, Marketing, Parts ("Parts are parts you know") and an
    untold number of people hours getting this pig of a machine, not to
    mention the $1,200,000,000 (that's right Billion with a Big "B") into
    our 200+ customers hands.
    
    I had to replace one of these things installed in an Airline (name will
    remain nameless to protect those who have since left or been TFSO'ed)
    because of it's horrendous reliability.  Imagine having to hand over a
    brand new VAX 10000 system to replace the VAX 9000 system
    (MLP=$975,000 at the time for the VAX 10000) for $0.00 just so your
    company does not get dragged into the 5th District Court to haggle the
    details out there in front of Judge Ito.  Pain...Pain....Pain... never
    want to do it again.
    
    So, this new Turbolaser 8400 and 8200 has got to work, will work, does
    work wonderfully well and will most likely be a great success for us. 
    It in now way should even appear on the same page as a VAX 9000 (jeesh,
    shivers up my spine Matey!)
    
    Mav

Another difference from the VAX 9000.  Larry Ellison CEO of Oracle
stands up and proclaims it as the only serious open-systems mainframe
downsizing option. "Two of these machines clustered are more reliable
than any one mainframe".  One of Ellison's customers runs a job which
took 9 hours on a 3090 in 27 minutes on a 8400 running Oracle VLM.

This announcement motivates Oracle to push this machine in downsizing
opportunities, since it shows them off best!

    And let's ride this for all it's worth. Larry Ellison pretty much
    singlehanded made Sequent by his endoresement of them in the 80's (in
    1990 there was not 1 single Sequent Machine is Canada that was not
    bought to run Oracle). He's a shrewed guy and knows what's going on. It
    must hurt just a little though that this goes a long way to closing the
    lid on Larry's personal baby nCube. 

    I don't mean to be negative but we should not lay back and celebrate
    too soon.  Hardware alone doesn't sell.  Our service and customer
    relationship should be considered as important as our product.  Last
    Thursday, one of my customer called me wanted to buy Ultrix 4.3
    to upgrade their system.  They thought this should be a simple
    request.  Since I am only a senior delivery consultant, I can only
    relayed the message with my estimated statement of work (immediately) 
    to the "business manager" and he forwarded my mail to another 
    "business manager" who e-mailed to another "manager".  After 3 working
    days, nobody else did anything but forwarding my e-mail to one-another!
    The customer did not receive any reply from us until I escalated this 
    issue yesterday and then one of the "business manager" promised me that
    he will give a courtesy call to this customer today.   No doubt that 
    this customer is frustrated and does not want to think about Digital
    in the future.  They told me that after they bought 100 DEC PCs, they
    decided not buying anymore because they are not satisfied with our
    response.
    
    We have a lot of intelligent and diligent people who just work and 
    never complain.  However we also have some people who are doing nothing
    but forwarding/dispatching works with no added value.  

    
    ...around here anyway.  Your local MCS unit may be able to help. 
    Our customers have purchased Ultrix upgrades through us or their 
    favorite reseller and we help them install it for pretty decent 
    consulting dollars!   Of course while onsite we clue them in on 
    the excitement of our Alphaservers and Digital UNIX, if they're
    not already aware...
    
    marty

    re .21...
    
    >bought to run Oracle). He's a shrewed guy and knows what's going on. It
    
    I'm not sure it's appropriate to bring your opinion of the guy's wife
    into the discussion. I AM sure the moderators will correct me if I'm
    wrong.

    Re .5
    I like it.  Probably worth the cost of tapes and postage.
    Sure is good to here some positive stuff.
    Sue
    

    re -.1
    
    Yep, I *love* to see it, too!  Had a client in the elevator last week
    talking over the new 8400.  He was unbelievably impressed and said 
    "It's great.  Digital sure could *use* a break".
    
    I said "Yeah, we could.  Every person in my department's booked out for
    months, we're selling Alphas like ice cream in Saudi Arabia, my group's
    profitable, and now we've got a machine that runs like greased
    lightening.  We'd all like some time off."
    
    He looked kinda surprised, like I was supposed to bow my head and say
    "Gee, things have been so tough...if only I worked for IBM."
    
    								Tex

    I didn't see the DVN broadcast. But, it certainly sounds good from what
    I can see here. Why don't we just edit that tape a little and put it on
    *national TV - PRIMETIME*!!! Just talking about it in the DVN boradcast
    or reading about it in the Notes File is preaching to the choir. I
    doubt anyone of us here have any use or can afford one of those
    systems. 

For little tiny books authors go on book tours covering all the talk shows 
plugging their wares.  It works for actors and movies and used to work for 
the San Diego zoo.

Given all the interest in technology maybe we could get ourselves in the 
Guiness Book of World Records and do a talk show tour!  At least we should 
blow out the Discovery Channel's technology shows and computer mags.

Trick is we would have to find an appropriately upbeat personality to 
parade the technology...is Richard Simmons available?

Just show the clip...


  ;-)  KRM

    Both the Alpha 21064 and Alpha 21164 chips *are* in the Guinness Book
    of World Records as the world's fastest microprocessors (1992 and
    1994 -- or is it 1995?).
    
    Mac

    RE: VAX9000 running VMS only....
    
    There was at one time a part number for an 9000 running Ultrix.  I
    don't know if any such beast ever made it to production or was ever
    sold.
    
    However, if memory serves me correctly I saw an internal memo
    describing a milestone in which Ultrix actually booted on a VAX 9000.
    
    Perhaps someone who worked in Ultrix engineering has more details.
    
    Larry

    
    The Atlanta CSC had Ultrix running on a 9000 for awhile, and there
    were a few customers, if I recall.  I remember the system in the CSC
    because it was named elvis.  We used to ping it once and awhile to
    see...you guessed it..."elvis is alive".
    
    marty

    
    I've been told I have the unfortunate luck of having the only customer
    who ever bought an Ultrix 9000.  I can get you a great eal on it if
    anyone wants it...
    
    Bruce

    I know of the Eel,but the great eal is this more obviously larger?
    
    Gordon Attenborough.

    The news is spreading.......
    
    *FRONT PAGE* on this weekend's Financial Times (premier world-wide
    business daily) is headline ;
    
    	"IBM angered at Digital's Alpha Claims"
    
    Good crisp article, pleading "the mainframe business is not dead", IBM
    will be seeking to rectify the absurd Digital claims, etc., etc. 
    Really comes across that they are running scared.
    
    Article probably incited by IBM PR department, but journalist has given
    it a fair spin - if time permits I will type it in here 
    
    /Chris.

    I have typed in the whole front-page article - see 3803.27
    

    But is the mainframe market our competition?  What about HP and Sun?

re Note 3805.37 by NCMAIL::SMITHB:

>     But is the mainframe market our competition?  What about HP and Sun?
  
        My thoughts exactly.  We are still concentrating on the glass
        house and the data center, although with an offering that is
        not a mainframe (but certainly pitched as a
        mainframe-killer).

        A thought experiment:  would the VAX 9000 have been the right
        thing if it had not been plagued by technical, schedule, and
        cost problems?

        I have no doubt that the future of computing is 64-bits --
        but when 64-bit technology is bought by the masses, will it
        be *our* 64-bit technology?  Are we doing the right things to
        make that happen?  Do we even care if that happens?

        Bob

RE: 3805.38 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish 

> A thought experiment:  would the VAX 9000 have been the right thing if it 
> had not been plagued by technical, schedule, and cost problems?

No,  but Prism probably was.


Phil

    It seems to me that our latest announcement concentrates too much on
    the big and the fast.
    Meanwhile Sun, HP, AIX, DG and SCO clean up in the 10-100Gbyte database
    space. There is a real danger of the commercial space seeing Alpha as
    only applicable to the big problems. Indeed the HP letter elsewhere
    plays this line quite nicely. "You don't need 64 bit - yet", "stick
    with what works" etc.
    We should be picking up every bit of M/F downsizing we can get but
    there is a risk of missing the middle space. The approach should be "If
    8gig in memory and Tb on disk is possible - 50Gbytes is childs play."
    
    The VAX 9000 was surpassed by the VAX 6000 for all practical purposes,
    so the installed base didn't buy it. The market wasn't ready to
    downsize to a VAX.
    
    Andrew

    Right.  Maybe it is obvious to us that if this high-end is possible in
    something no bigger than an American-sized refrigerator, then the
    10-100Gbyte in a breadbox is childs' play.  It is probably not that
    obvious to the customer base.  In fact, many of them probably don't
    realise that Digital can accomplish this range on a single architecture
    (unlike most of the competitors). 
    
    This is the message we should be advancing and racheting down into the
    Sun & HP space.
    
    /Chris. 

    Hmm....
    
    What, I wonder, has fuelled IBMs spectacular return to profit just now?
    
    Certainly, *not* PCs (acknowledged loss there).
    
    Certainly, *not* low end Unix stuff (small margins..).
    
    Ahah ! That boring old HIGH END MVS stuff.
    
    Why ? My Economics 1-2-3 says *margin* is important.
    
    So, if *we* can make nice margin with mainframe bashing Turbolaser kit,
    maybe we should smile some more. The publicity may even help us (or
    our channels) shift more of that low margin stuff too.
    
    
    I used to work for an auto manufacturer in Europe. The key to selling
    low end models in the range of vehicles was to have really sexy
    high-end cars in the same range.  You made your money on the large
    volume of low end cars, which people just wouldn't have bought if there
    wasn't a really neat machine at the high end.  The margin per unit
    wasn't too different, but the top models created demand for *all* the
    range.
    
    Now, if only Windows NT was 64 bit.
    
    Rgds,
    
    AW

I worked for a Hi-Fi store which discovered the same thing.

The placed sold $10,000-$20,000 home Hi-Fi units.  They sold very little 
of them.  BUT because they had these bought them credibility on the low 
end.  Most of the hi-fi they sold and almost all of their profit came from 
systems under $3,000.  Selling the high end just made the person buying a 
$3,000 unit more comfortable that he was buying from a top-notch supplier.

Similarly a friend of mine bought a Ferrari.  When torn between it and the 
Lamborghini the salesman simply said: "All I know is, there is no finer 
name in the racing world than Ferrari."  He bought the car on the spot.

Impression is EVERYTHING!

If the Alpha is so great and everyone thinks our engineering is so great 
and "we've been doing networks since Moby Dick was a minnow" why don't we 
use stuff like:

	Digital Equipment Corporation...the best engineered computers
	on the planet.

	Nobody knows Networks better than Digital...Nobody!

	Digital's Alpha systems... the fastest, most cost effective
        computers in the world.  Isn't that what you want?

Maybe we could get the guy from the Lexus ads?

    the branding campaign must be working.  I brought my 6-year-old into
    the office and she asked, "Daddy, why does everything say 'Digital' on
    it."  :-)
    
    Mark

 > Maybe we could get the guy from the Lexus ads?
 
    Maybe image isn't as much as you think. I don't recall any specific
    person from Lexus ads. Infiniti ads, yes.

    And your reply was?
    
    

    re: a few back, worries about appeals only to the "high end."
    
    I say RUBBISH.  For the first time in years, old customers that refused
    to do business wit us are calling us back in.  They know that with a
    box that really produces on the high-end and is very competitive in the
    mid- and low-end (AS ALPHA IS TODAY!) that they must look at us
    seriously.  We are sellii\ng AlphaServer 2100s at a very healthy rate,
    and beating the competition!