Conference 7.286::digital

    If I may cross-pollinate with another note a couple of topics back....
    
    I have seen (a) A digital office cover the $200/month cost of a laptop
    PC (a couple of years ago) and then (b) refuse to approve 2 320Ps via
    IEG for $800 (6 months ago) - for documented, legit, business needs
    (i.e., not to play Duke Nuk'em).
    
    Don

Oh, I don't know, Pat.  Isn't it a good use of my time to spend
an hour today looking for a copy of the OAG so I can plan a trip?
I mean, they closed our library (open only half-time) to save money,
and they were the only ones allowed to get it.  So some trivialists
tell me to call Amex (already-fired but not-replaced agent) to ask
them to pick flights for me!  Yeah, right!  But I also spent a while
discussing with my manager whether the trip could be approved at all,
since it's to a standards meeting at a hotel that costs $72/night
and the guideline for that exciting fun destination (Raleigh) is 
only $62 so should I find a Motel 6 and miss half the meeting and
spend $20/day in taxis, per the late Jack Smith's memos?

And I an trying to buy a protocol analyzer... Three of the four
choices are over $10k, and one is $6500 PLUS a laptop PC with a 
fullsize slot (NOT a DEC standard) which would total about $8500,
but purchasing warned me not to consider it because NO WAY would
the pissants-in-charge let a PO go out for a Laptop PC, even embedded
within test equipment, so I should buy the one-piece unit no matter
how much more it costs!

Morale?  What's that?  About half my time lately is spent fighting
the "cost saving" imbecility which costs us a fortune.

    I've got a better example:
    
    I have to be in Phila for a meeting with a customer at 9:00.  A Delta
    flight gets me early enough in the morning to make the meeting.  A U.S.
    Air flight is $46 cheaper but it doesn't arrive until 8:50 A.M. -- too
    late.  But travel regulations say that I must take the U.S. Air flight
    because it is within a one hour time window of the Delta flight.  To
    comply with travel regulations, I fly in the night before, spending an
    extra $120 on hotel, meals, and rental car.
    
    What a company.

    
    Why don't you make the meeting at 10:00 or 10:30?
    
    
    Mike

    Because I'm customer driven, and the customer wants to meet at 9:00.  

    
    I don't know what the answer is but it goes well beyond Digital.  This
    sort of policy is probably familiar at companies all over the world. 
    So we should not be placing the blame on the company per se, but
    looking at what is about people that produces this kind of thinking.
    If we do that we have a chance of figuring out the cause and fixing it.
    
    Steve
    

    Just though I'd ask.  No offense.
    
    
    Mike

    re: .7
    
    Excuse me, that's just psychobabble.
    
    Smart companies trust employees and then trust their supervisors to do
    the right thing.
    
    It's more the lack of trust than the financial losses that's created
    this "screw common sense, screw the project, screw the customer, follow
    the policy" mentality. 

    We have the rules because enough managers make/allow poor decisions...
    
    Enough managers make/allow poor decisions because they were
    inadequately chosen and/or trained...
    
    They were inadequately chosen and/or trained because proper management
    has not been valued at DEC...
    
    and so on...

    
    Could it be that managers make poor decisions because the've never had
    true accountability?
    
    Can Bob's DEC change that?
    

I have to support a tradeshow in March in SF. I prefer to fly out of Manchester, but I'll
fly out of Boston to help save $  The standard Amex flight was Bos--SF out Tues back
Sat. cost $1,200. I've flown out west too much to pay that much for a flight.  The next
call asking for a better fare offered a Sat. stay over, but still too much for $750
So, I called the airlines directly, and ended up with a non-stop out of Bos, stay over
Saturday night return Sunday, airfair is now >>>>>>>>  $420 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 
This more than offsets the extra day of expenses, but I'm away a day longer from the family. 

If the savings helps most/all of us to keep our jobs, than I'll stay the extra day.

Management ask why the extra day, and when they saw the numbers they said DO IT !!!!!

Do what's right ask permission later!!!

Bill Z.

    
    	re .7
    
    >looking at what is about people that produces this kind of thinking.
    
    	The bean counters have taken over. Funny thing is, as long as
    	the RULES are followed, you can spend as many beans as you want,
    	even if there are cheaper ways to do business.
    

    
    
    I remember an old addage......how did it go?...........Let me
    see...yes, I remember, "Do the right thing".
    
    

Re:            <<< Note 2362.2 by INFACT::BEVIS "Dig it, AL!" >>>

>                             -< kiloton foolish?? >-

In case you're not aware, the pound in "penny wise, pound foolish" does not
refer to weight, but to the British currency, the Pound Sterling.

-  David

    Well, IMO what takes the cake is the hoarding of office supplies which
    has taken place around here since expenses for them have been frozen. 
    Pencils, paper pads, paper clips... all being zealously guarded by
    their owners...

    L.

    
    Re: .9
    
    >Excuse me, that's just psychobabble.
    >
    >Smart companies trust employees and then trust their supervisors to do
    >the right thing.
    >
    >It's more the lack of trust than the financial losses that's created
    >this "screw common sense, screw the project, screw the customer, follow
    >the policy" mentality.
    
    Well, Patrick, if it's just psychobabble why is it you took the trouble 
    to offer a suggestion about just what it is I was getting at.  There
    are no "smart companies".  Your "smart companies" are just any company
    lucky enough to have one or two "smart people" who are in a position to
    behave in functional ways.  Your case of trusting people to do the
    sensible thing is one good example, but it is people not companies that
    trust or don't.
    
    Steve
    

      <<< Note 2362.16 by ELWOOD::KAPLAN "Larry Kaplan, DTN: 237-6872" >>>
                       -< Black market pencils and pens >-

>    Well, IMO what takes the cake is the hoarding of office supplies which
>    has taken place around here since expenses for them have been frozen. 
>    Pencils, paper pads, paper clips... all being zealously guarded by
>    their owners...

>    L.

On the other hand check out CAPNET::DELTA_SWAPSHOP where hundreds of folks are 
helping each other by offering supplies free. 

    Re: .4
    
    I agree with .12.  The expense policy doesn't force you to stay
    overnight in that situation.  You're expected to take the cheapest
    flight that will make your meeting.  If it's cheaper to take the
    more expensive flight, then take it.  If you're worried about
    some finance person or your manager complaining later, just attach
    a note explaining why your choice was the cheapest option.
    
    It's easy to talk about how "management" is all screwed up, but
    each of us is making decisions every day and we can all influence
    the bottom line.
    
    I've never had an expense report bounce back over a cost savings
    issue, even if it did break the policy.
    

    Re: .12, .19
    
    If you listen carefully you can hear me applauding.
    Thank you!

    .10 gets my vote...
    
    My group travels extensively, as does another group in Cust. Svcs. that
    works with us providing support for Trade Shows/Customer Events.  Our
    managers are currently "forced" to enforce the letter of the expense
    policy, which results in COSTING Digital money every time we travel.
    
    	Example:  	Show is at hotel XYZ, $99/night
    			rate for this city is $85/night
    
    			SOOOO...find a cheaper hotel, usually 5-20 miles
    			away, and RENT A CAR for an additional $40-50/day
    			plus $20 to park at the event and everything is fine.
    
    			Total expense is now $145-155, but it meets all the 
    			guidelines.
    
    Managers from both groups have been over and over this issue...and have
    been told by their management that per Bill Steuhl's memo:
    
    			"NO EXCEPTIONS!"
    
    Amex even tried to put one person in a hotel in Pheonix, to support a 
    show in Las Vegas, because it was the closest hotel available that met
    corp. rates.  This blind application of policy is forcing managers to 
    sign expense forms authorizing GREATER expenses than should have been \
    incurred.  Yes, sometimes there are 2-3 people that share the car,
    which would realize greater savings using the above example, but 
    sometimes the difference in rates for the hotels is only $10 above the
    corp. rate and there is only one or two people there.  The bottom line is 
    that managers are not trusted to be able to 
    insure that an employee is travelling with the interests of Digital in
    mind.  Some people stay at the higher rate and pay the diff out of
    their own pocket, not very many.  Although this policy has been
    enforced in our groups, it is just starting to hit some of the
    marketing groups we support.  This has resulted in the people who set
    up and support the show (get there very early, sometimes work very
    late) having to stay miles away, while the people that don't have to be
    there until 9 or 10am stay at higher priced property.  Some groups that
    we support say they have never heard of this policy.  We now carry
    copies of the memo to planning meetings to help spread the word...
    
    As I said, .10 hits the nail on the head.  As for other companies, I
    talk to friends that work for and in some cases RUN other companies,
    and they think that policies like this are absurd.  For some reason, we
    seem to be having alot of trouble getting people to employ the old
    fashioned "common sense" test that the government consistently fails.
    
    Jim (who_would_rather_drive_than_pay_the_extra)
    

    
    This is not the only company trying to cut expenses.   Other
    companies are requiring Saturday night stay overs for meetings
    when airfare is cheaper.  So, now when my husband goes out 
    of town, he leaves on Saturday.  Good friends of ours are also
    away at least 1 Saturday night per month.
    
    So, I figure that at least our rules don't require a Saturday
    stayover yet...
    
    LLB

I'm inclined to believe that this 'no exceptions' rule was brought upon us
by certain managers demonstrating that they could not be trusted to "do what is
right" for Digital.  Remember the memo last year listing some of the astounding
abuses of expense policy?  Once again, rather than show some guts and punish
the guilty, everyone is being forced to pay for the excesses of a few:-(

Bob

    
    ref - .23
    
    I could not agree more!  The abusers should have been given notice
    (fired) a long time ago and required to pay back the money (IMHO).
    
    

OK, so "no exceptions" is good.  But why can't the 
hotel-rate rule be changed from

	"You can't spend more than $N per day for the hotel"

to

	"You can't spend more than $M per day for the hotel
	 plus transport to wherever you have your first business
	 meeting"

?

Seems obvious to me (which is probably why I'm not in management)

    
    Anyone been to a meeting (Digital internal) which was held at a hotel
    conference room because it was cheaper than what site services was
    charging for one of our conference rooms?
    
    
    Mike

I'm sure many of you have a spouse who works at another hi-tech
company.  In my case, my wife started at Raytheon the same day 
I started at Digital and that was a little over 5 years ago.  
We both had worked for Data Terminal Systems which got munged 
with Datachecker and consumed by National Semiconductor.  That's
a story in itself!!

Anyway...we spend most of our commute home each day swapping 
stories about how wonderful work is each day...and about the 
idiotic things that occur.

If you haven't worked for a company that's heavily reliant on
gov't contracts and all their red-tape then you haven't lived!
Steph works in the Budgets/Cost & Pricing office of the 
Comptroller and the Ethics Office is a part of that group.  
I can't come close to her stories!

Yesterday she told me how she just got a color monitor for her
PC...so she can use her 'presentation' package...and print to
a b/w laser...it cost too much to print on the color printer
upstairs.  Anyway, one of the financial analysts has an olde
monitor and my wife asked if she could give hers to him and 
they take his away.  Well, the sys support person said "no way"
...that they'll take her monitor and scap it.  He'd have to 
put in a work order to have his replaced...but there's no
guarantee 'cause they may just tune it and give it back if it's
not broken!  Did I mention that my wife has the same baby AT
since when she started?!?  They've kept adding RAM and smaller
"bigger" drives and that baby keeps humming.

Once in a while I get asked to send my resume over there.  I
look at how things are with Digital...I remember working for
Nat'l...and I say, "No, thank you"!

--Nick

    No, I'm not going to count my blessings.

    Just as you can recall former employers who were incredibly stupid, I
    can recall a time when Digital was incredibly smart.

    Your formers employers probably didn't seek nor did they expect
    employees to put the customer first, have the drive to do what it takes
    to compete, to be profitable, and to grow.

    Digital is accelerating towards the big company/bureaucratic/socialist
    mindset.  Such employees are not going to put the customer first, they
    are going to do whatever it takes to not get "on report".  Job 1 is
    "fighting the system".

    Customers have a name for it: "The Digital Attitude".  It is petty. It
    is sarcastic.  It is fatalistic.  It is stupid.  It is an attitude that
    customers want nothing to do with.

    Employees are not being led, they are being intimidated.
                                      

Hmm, one word I *wouldn't* use for DEC is "socialist".

It must mean something different down there on Wall St, I suppose!

> Hmm, one word I *wouldn't* use for DEC is "socialist".
    
    Centrally-planned, Big Brother knows all, poor risk/reward ratio --
    all smacks of Socialism.
    
      John

    re: .28 - YES! and the sad thing is that this acceleration is 180
    degrees opposite from the entrepenurial, creative, responsible thinking
    that is needed to turn us around.  Surely BP did not intend this
    perverse interpretation of responsible fiscal behavior to dominate.

>     <<< Note 2362.30 by VMSDEV::HALLYB "Fish have no concept of fire." >>>
>                  -< There's lots more where that came from >-

>> Hmm, one word I *wouldn't* use for DEC is "socialist".
>    
>    Centrally-planned, Big Brother knows all, poor risk/reward ratio --
>    all smacks of Socialism.
    
>      John

Damn...  What company do you work for?  Out here it's more like the wild-wild
west...  Everybody zooming off in thirty difference directions, no Big Brother
in sight, almost wish we had one...  risk/reward used to be pretty good around
here too, we'll see how it holds up under the last round of re-orgs...

VMSDEV sounds like you must be in engineering...  Having been in both I alway
explain Digital field and Digital engineering to folks like the U.S around
the turn of the century... Engineering is like stodgy old New England...  
Norms have been established and in place for many years...  People didn't bust 
out of character much...  But hey, you were pretty safe...  The field is like
the wild-wild west. Opportunities abound under every rock...  The land is ruled
by the law of the gun...  You can do very well out here, but then you stand a
good chance of getting killed too... 

*sigh*

    All in all, the results (in my group) are that managers are far more
    concerned about costs now that:  exception memos for office supplies go
    to the VP, justifications required with travel requests, expense
    vouchers being audited and disallowed expenditures repaid by employees.
    
    This trickles down to some of the pettiness that you descibe, but I
    believe that it's finally cutting some of the costs.
    
    Mark

    RE: .26
    
    Mike,
    
    >>Anyone been to a meeting (Digital internal) which was held at a hotel
    >>conference room because it was cheaper than what site services was
    >>charging for one of our conference rooms?
    
    I've heard that hotels in tight financial times offer free use of
    conference rooms if a certain number of people stay at the hotel for an
    event.  Thus, if Sheraton (for example) offers DEC free conference
    rooms if DEC guarantees 100 rooms, then it is cheaper than holding it
    at a DEC site, if the DEC employees at the hotel come from out of town.
    There is no transportation costs incurred from the hotel to the DEC
    site to boot.  
    
    Bo

    re: 16 - COSMOS is up and running.  I placed an order for supplies
    and lo and behold!  I received everything.  It's being kept pretty
    quiet.  The DEC_Secretary notes file is a valuable source of
    information.
    
    Also ordered transparencies - that order came in as well!!!!
    
    T 

    re: .34
    
    	This is almost on the money.  My group handles most of the corps'
    events, including those held in hotels.  Almost EVERY hotel will give
    you meeting space for free with "x" amount of room nights, and YES, in
    most cases (operative being "most"...) it is cheaper for Digital.
    
    	Let's say we had a training event (and it was called something like
    Digital University.?.?) and it was coming up in maybe the 1st week of
    April timeframe, and it was going to be held in the "greater Boston"
    area.  The group "hosting" this event says "Let's book all the space
    over at Parker Street.  That way we avoid any kind of space charge."
    Let's say there are going to be 500+ attendees, from all geographies.
    
    1) No hotels within a reasonable distance from parker st. that can
    handle 500+ people.
    
    2) if there were, then add trans. charges to the budget to bus them in.
    
    3) the space in parker st. has no provisions in place to feed 500+
    people (other than caf's in surrounding facilities, which may or may
    not be able to handle 500+ over what they have now.)
    
    Then consider the following:
    
    1) the attendees are going to have to stay at a hotel.  With 500+
    people for 3-4 nights, this works out to 1500-2000 "room nights", so
    hotel probably throws in meeting space for free.
    
    2) no trans. chges other than to/frm airport.  
    
    3) Hotel all set up to feed it's "guests"
    
    4) rates for meals/rooms now negotiable as a "package" deal for the
    hotel.
    
    
    There are situations where using Dec space is more "cost-effective",
    but they are few and far between in my experience.  I have worked on
    events at TAY in littleton, PNO in Pheonix, etc...and frequently see us 
    "save" money...
    
    
    Jim