Conference 7.286::digital

    I should ask one of people that I've seen being escorted out
    of BTO today.
    
    Mark

    I don't understand why people are escorted out. The MCG people have
    gotten tapped, but they are working though June. Surely, they won't
    get escorted out on June 28. That would be ridiculous.
     
    Katherine 

    RE: .2
    
    
    Rediculous...........seems to be the norm as of late.
    I am more concerned with the "package" offering, $$$$$$ and time.
    Please excuse the word _offering_, as I did not know what else to call
    
                          IT.
    Dan
    

    	.1 and .2 just go to show that the process differs from
    	location to location, and from group to group.
    
    	Your mileage may vary.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    reply to .0
    
    	This is what I have heard about the tap here at the Cupertino Site
    
    1. person is notified by his/her supervisor/manager to go upstairs for
       a meeting. One hour before this computer account was frozen.
    
    2. Person meets with supervisor/manager plus one person from human
       resources. Meeting discusses layoff plus HR there to help answer
       any questions about benefits,stock plans, etc.
    
    3. Person is escorted to desk ( if they have one) to clean out their
       valuables. Person is not allowed to talk to other employees during
       this time.
    
    4. Person is escorted out of building. 
    
    I don't agree with step 4, but it is a common practice here in Silicon
    Valley, and I do understands some of the companies concerns for doing
    this, the same concerns that have them freeze the computer account.
    
    Don't know about other sites.
    
    Brian

re Note 1444.5 by WLDWST::BRODRIGUES:

>     I don't agree with step 4, but it is a common practice here in Silicon
>     Valley, and I do understands some of the companies concerns for doing
>     this, the same concerns that have them freeze the computer account.
  
        The people who plan these programs know very well what they
        are doing to people, and they rightly fear retaliation. 
        Fortunately for the company, in a contest between unequals,
        the stronger party usually can arrange things so that such
        retaliation is impossible or ineffective.

        Bob

    What are you allowed to bring from your desk. Alot of my brains
    are in books, papers, files, course material, etc.

    IMHO, the security guards and the escorting crap are a major
    over-reaction.  Not letting the person speak to anyone is probably
    illegal.  
    
    Realize, however, that the everage Digital manager has never fired
    ANYONE!  Most of them seem to be terrified about what the terminated
    individual might do.  Once you've lock up the person's account, how
    much can they "retaliate".  Besides, although acts of retaliation get
    major press, the VAST majority of folks quietly pack up their stuff and
    leave.  Why flush your career down the toilet just to "get even"?   Or,
    from the other side, if you've got an employee who's that unstable, why
    have you kept him around until now?
    
    Before joining Digital, I went throught a messy hostile takeover which
    resulted in the entire corporate office being laid off over a 9-month
    period.  No one was esorted from the building.  In fact, everyone was
    given at least 2 week's notice.  Some were paid a premium to stay on
    until a specific date (6 or so months out).  And this in a company not
    at all noted for its warm fuzzies.
    
    I take it back.  Digital's "policy" isn't merely over-reaction.  It's
    totally infantile and a rotten way to treat people whose only sin is
    being in the wrong job at the wrong time.
    
    
    -dave
    
    P.S.  Regarding what you can take from your desk, I make it a general	 
    rule to minimize the presence in my office of things I couldn't leave
    behind, if necessary.

>    3. Person is escorted to desk ( if they have one) to clean out their
>       valuables. Person is not allowed to talk to other employees during
>       this time.

Just out of curiosity, how do they prevent you from talking to someone else?
Obviously, they can not penalize you by firing you... they have just done
that...  Is there a reason that they don't want you to talk to others?
Seems rather silly to me.


-Joe

	... the unlucky layoff?  Do all facilities have uniformed guards
that make it obvious what is going on?  Ours doesn't.  And BTW, the one
and only layoff I have heard of in ATO walked around the building freely
until quitting time Monday.

	Wonder what happens if you DO try to speak to a layoff under
escort in one of these facilities?  Maybe it's like a Navy prisoner line,
break the line and you get to join it until your commander comes to get
you out of the brig!  :>)

    Re: what can you take with you...
    
    What happens to people who have DECwrecks? Do they take your
    car keys? Are you given cab fare home?
    
    I can imagine some guy standing at a bus stop with boxes filled
    with their personal stuff, briefcase, and set of golf clubs trying
    to get back home after they get the "tap"
    
    -Marc

Re:   <<< Note 1444.11 by NEURON::VIOLA "looks like a storm is coming" >>>

>    I can imagine some guy standing at a bus stop with boxes filled

I don't think we're allowed to take moving boxes... (smiley face here if it 
                                                    wasn't such a serious topic)
-  David

    Re:  former company car...
    
    Well our office is across the street from the MARTA (= MBTA) train
    station soooooo........  :-)   Actually I figure that it probably will
    take at least six months before somebody complains about the missing
    Vehicle Expense Summaries.
    
    Mike hoping that he won't find out what the policy actually is...

    When I was given the famous brown envelope a few years ago, the
    reason given to me by the HR mgr regarding not talking to people
    on the way out was that, "It might upset them".
    
    Two hours after the event I met most of them in the local pub
    and the common reaction was sympathy touched with not a little
    envy at the size of the cheque, and that I was, "able to get out
    before it gets Really bad!"
    
    Calvin

    re:-1
    
    Are you saying that you got laid off by DEC two years ago and are back
    now? Did I miss something?
    
    Ken

    Re: -1
    
    I think he ment he was laid off at another company...
    
    -Marc

    My brother was laid off at HLO after 11 years about a month ago.  His
    experience was pretty close to that outlined in .5.  All the people
    near his cubicle were cleared out (or just not there) when he packed
    up.  Anyway he was gone in half an hour.
    
    I expect the policy does vary from place to place.  Plants that are
    told they are closing seem to have some time to look for another job
    within the company.  Others are walked out.  My brother was told that
    he could not look for a job within the company.  He was a '3' by the
    way.  No comment on whether the layoff was performance related,
    decrease in personnel requirements, or political.
    
    On another note, I worked at Prime during some of their recent
    problems.  Very few were walked out, only those that were 'upset'. 
    Most were allowed to continue to work, or were asked to work for a
    period of time.  My wife stayed, and she continued for several weeks,
    cleaning up and briefing the engineers she supported.
    
    Within my group, I think it helped.  We lost about 25% in one cut while
    I was there and I think it helped those left to talk to the ones cut. 
    As a further note, ALL the computer systems in engineering were in a
    totally open room.  As far as I know, there were NO incidents of
    vandalism or loss of data.  Maybe some things happened, but I doubt it.
    I know someone could have set Prime back at least a couple of days, and
    broken a lot of hardware.  
    
    
    

    Here in Ayr we have just got past the 'Communication of Decisions and
    Leaving Dates" phase of a voluntary programme.  Decisions were given on
    Monday, and all 174 who had applied will be allowed to go.  The first
    people leave tomorrow, but the last of them (or rather us) won't be out
    of here until December.  There have been no escortings-out, but then it
    was voluntary.
    
    Ian.

As stated elsewhere in this conference, one of the main differences between
a professional and an amateur is the fact the the pro has seen and done the
job before, plans what to do, and does the job.  I have been laid off twice,
worked for a company that did multiple layoffs, and have observed how another
company handled layoffs.  After reading this note, it is obvious to me that
these layoffs are being handled by people with little experience.  (I was
going to make that staement a lot stronger but I will give them the benefit
of the doubt.)

The main problem is that managers have no training or experience in these
types of situations.  People are not born with the experience.  Since Digital
for a long period of time "grew their own" managers, it is not surprising
that they have no experience.  What is sad is that given a six month lead
time to prepare, there were no efforts made to train managers on how to
handle laying off people.  Why do I say six months?   Because Jack Smith 
stated last fall that the company would know in November, 1990 if there would
need to be a layoff.

If there were one message I would send to KO and friends, it would be to stop
trying to muddle through and get professional help.  Pay experts to teach 
those skills that are needed to do the job.  There is no shame in asking for
help.

Lee G.

    Yesterday, TFO laid off between 25 and 40 employees (don't
    have exact number). Security "was around" to assist in escourting
    if necessary, but I heard it was not needed.
    

    Yooooooooo !
                  I never thought my 0 note would turn into THIS.
    All I realy wanted to know was any changes in $$$$$$$ vrs. time.
    But so be it.............good info.
    
    To all of you who think that to be walked out is a slap in the 
    head...............I see your point, BUT......._ I think _ its
    for the best in SOME cases.
    
    I have worked in many places G.M. for example, and when they had a
    walkout or major LAYOFF it was a mess for sure.
    You did not want to buy a car made in that time frame.!!!!!!!!
    
    All in all _I THINK_ Dec. is handling at about a #7 on the 1 to 10
    scale.
    
    I SAID _I_ THINK !.......... no flames please.
    
    No one ever told me........ O.K. ya got a job dec.
    
                                       AND ITS FOREVER !
    
    Life goes on............................
    
    Regards,
    Dan

    
    RE:22
    
    In business, you don't get what you deserve, You get what you
    negotiate.
    
    You want to volunteer? Then it's up to you knock on doors and propose.
    
    In todays business climate, there's alway's time to listen. So, seek
    out and destroy, you'd be surprised at what will be considered and done
    these days.
    
    Though the voluntary program does'nt officialy exist, I see no reason
    why one could'nt volunteer if they desired.
    

re .22:

It varies from country to country.  There's no voluntary program in the U.S.,
but apparently there is in the U.K.

    
    re .22 & .23 yes it's'possed to be involuntary.
    
    re .24 listen closely and you shall see what I see.
    
      Yes the latest package, TFSO-III is/was supposedly handled in the
    "involuntary" processing of non-performers (4 & 5 ratings) up to the
    mediocre (3 performers) and or a likely combination of performance,
    job elimination, political and or "volunteering" for the involuntary
    TFSO-III.  It's real!  Some 30 to 55 people are being transistioned
    this week out of this facility, some involuntarily, other who can't
    deal with or don't want to deal with uncertain job futures and elected
    to volunteer to take TFSO-III for fears of receiving a lesser package
    in the future, rumored to be TFSO-IV "The Final Package."  Hope I have
    not clouded over your views of TFSO-III, your mileage may vary
    depending on site location, country or other controlling factors.
    An old Bahamian taxi driver shared one of his philosophies on life
    with me one evening over a few pints.  His words of wisdom were simple
    but to the point;  "Adapt to your environment or change it" and 
    "most situations are negotiable".....which in this case includes
    volunteering for the "involuntary" seperation package, TFSO-III.

    
    re .25
    
    If by "up to the mediocre (3 performers)" you mean the low end 3
    performers - those just good enough not to be 4's, then I may agree
    with the sentence. If however, by "up to the mediocre (3 performers)"
    you mean that all "3 performers" are mediocre then you and perhaps 85%
    of the DEC population disagree. The description of a "3 performer"
    includes the statement "does the job and sometimes exceeds it". and I
    venture to suggest that that's where most of us fit. There are many
    managers who for various reasons over rate their direct reports.
    Possibly the number of "1's" should be limited to 2 - 3% and the number
    of "2's" to  7 - 8% total throughout the Corporation. Then the 3's
    would get the recognition they deserve - the backbone of the
    Corporation.
    
    I haven't looked at the Orange book for a while but even a 4 performer
    could be considered a usefull, worthwhile employee. Very few reach
    full performance in a new position immediately and the 4 rating could
    and was used for people who showed every sign of ability but simply
    needed experience.

    re: .11
    
    >> what hapens if you have a DEC-wreck ...
    
    Unless this also is 'handled differently from site to site' someone who
    is "tapped" that has a company car is given the use of the vehicle for
    30 days and the option to buy it out.
    
    At the end of 30 days, the car comes back to Digital if the employee
    elects not to purchase it.
    
    /se
    

    After reading these replies its alittle bit scary the lot of
    being layed off.. They made you feel like a crimmal or something
    when all we have done is build the product. What happen with the
    freedom of speech that doesen't apply when your being escorted
    or what???? 

re: .28
                           -< "Freedom of speech?" >-

Freedom of Speech is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. As has been pointed
out elsewhere in this conference on numerous occasions, the rights guaranteed
by the Constitution do not generally apply to private industry, DEC included,
in the pursuit of their business. The corporation reserves the right to limit
your personal rights on Company property. Witness constraints on solicitation
or distribution of literature in DEC facilities.

-Jack

    
      re: .26, I agree whole heartedly.................................
    The only problem with the "Bell Curve Method," is one of categorization
    of employee performances in that it forces mgrs. & supv's to stagger
    the fine line of conformance to set guidelines with little flex-
    ibility or the hassles of "pushing back" the boundries.  Evidence
    of the established system not working, least not here, was the fact
    that at the time of the announcement of downsizing (in this facility)
    the question was raised about performance vs. downsizing.  The answer
    mysteriously came back that out of a plant population of + 600, there
    were only a handfull, certainly not 2 handfulls of 4 & 5 performers!
    I found this rather difficult to chew on and even less digestable.
    
      Back to the origin of this topic, it's the wrong people in this
    corporation who are leaving or are being forced to take the package
    whether it's voluntary or involuntary.  Why do we continue to make
    cuts at the bottom of the ladder and "some" middle rungs along the way?
    Could someone clue me in as to why this corporation has not set an
    example by restructuring from the top down?  Or is this another one
    of those touchy / feely situations where people won't express their
    true feelings?

It has been awhile since the first package was offered and I remember how it
was done.  The people involved were told that their position was being 
eliminated and that they could try to get another job but that finding one
would be improbable.  This happened about two months before termination date.

When the termination date came about everyone was called together into the
cafeteria and those that were leaving were given a party.  Presents were 
exchanged.  Cake was served.  Certificates of merit were handed out.  These 
people were treated as if they were truly transitioning from one phase of 
life to another and that their work at Digital was appreciated and valued.   
While it was true that some of the people were retiring others were at that 
age and skill level where another fifteen to twenty years of working lay 
ahead and the pay and seniority lost would never be recovered.  Yet none felt 
bad about the way Digital had treated them.  We all left feeling good.

Of course that was fifteen months ago and Digital has learned alot about how
to handle layoffs.  Now we know better.  

Mike 
   
    

    Retaliation is not so far fetched as it may seem, and can be
    accompished in a number of different ways.  You can destroy valuable
    information before you leave, you can steal on your way out, or incite
    others, or you could do as one person did at Merrill Lynch a few years
    ago when he was layed off.  He went home, got a gun, came back to the
    office and shot his manager five or six times.  He was also an ex-DECcy
    rumor has it.
    
    TFSO III package has the same terms as TFSO II, except for the
    extension of benefits.  If you're about to be laid off, it's legally
    required that you are given 60 days notice, so you're tapped on the
    shoulder, escorted out, and the official notice begins the end of that
    week.  You receive a regular pay check for the following 60 days, about
    nine weeks and at the end of this you receive your lump sum check,
    minus nine weeks.  In the interim, you are permitted, usually to come
    back in and clean up any remaining stuff in your office, return
    equipment, clear up paperwork and any other matters you must attend to.
    
    Voluntary vs involuntary, it's my understanding, is determined by the
    larger organization you work in.  I work in Educational Services, it is
    involuntary here.  My last day is June 28, 1991.  I'm looking forward
    to it.
    

Re:                  <<< Note 1444.26 by REGENT::PATTENDEN >>>

>    Possibly the number of "1's" should be limited to 2 - 3% and the number
>    of "2's" to  7 - 8% total throughout the Corporation. 

I disagree that there should be limits, unless the standards of measurement 
are frequently updated to make the limits work.  By imposing limits, it's
quite possible that people who really deserve a 1 or 2 rating will not get it
purely because of the limits. 

Of course JEC moved everyone into their proper place so there should be more 3
performers now, right?  :-) 

-  David

    While there may be some expected "bell curve" distibution of ratings
    when you look at the corporation as a whole, it does not follow that
    each and every sample (read organization) will exhibit the same
    distribution.
    
    Making such a distribution into a controlling policy will tend to force
    the curve down to the lowest organizational unit.  There are probably
    units of pathological overachievers out there where, as in Lake
    Wobegon, "all the children are above average."  Under a "bell-curve"
    rule, the 2-level performer placed into such a group could find
    themselves a 3 or 4 overnight without any change in behavior.
    
    -dave

    Well...here at BTO after thirty-something people were
    escorted out this week, there are a couple of manager 
    jobs posted on the bulletin board. 
    
    No kidding...
    
    Mark                        
    

    Re: .3  
                  THANKS !
    for a few good answers.
    Dan                         (not all is fair in love and work)

    Soooooooooooooooo tap me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Dan

    
    Re several a few back.
    
    DEC UK is not officially offering voluntary redundancy, but DEC
    Scotland ( a totally separate legal entity, for manufacturing) did so.
    I believe any subsidsiary has the legal ability to choose for itself
    how to operate, although presumably with greater or lesser "advice"
    from HQ.                                          

    re: .29 You are of course right about the ruling. I'm sure there are
    many who would disagree with the ruling. "All of a sudden we are not
    FULLY American citizens" when we go to work?  Something seems extremely
    wrong when we have to abandon our basic rights (if one, why not all?)
    when we work for corporations, businesses, etc. I'd be willing to bet
    $1,000's that the founding Fathers did not intend this twist of
    interpretation. I'm sure this fits better in another notes file; but
    everything intertwines in life. 

RE: .39

The Bill of Rights applies to the U.S. federal government and, by later
extension, to the states.  It applies ONLY to government, not to private
individuals (and corporations are individuals in the eyes of the law).
You have no right to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly in my
living room.  Nor do you have such rights in DEC's "living room".

>"All of a sudden we are not FULLY American citizens" when we go to work?

Hardly "all of a sudden".  It's been that way ever since the U.S. was
founded, and way back before that.

>    I'd be willing to bet
>    $1,000's that the founding Fathers did not intend this twist of
>    interpretation.

Only if you want to lose your money.  Several of the founding fathers in
fact never intended the Bill of Rights even to apply to the various state
governments, let alone private citizens and organizations--they intended it
ONLY as a curb on what the federal government could do.  It took a separate
ammendment, later on, to extend the Bill of Rights to apply to state
governments as well.

--PSW

    As Colin said, Digital Equipment (Scotland) Ltd is an entirely separate
    legal entity from Digital Equipment Ltd.  The voluntary programme has
    been limited to around 600 people here in Ayr, of which 174 are going.
    
    Personnel here looked at Digital UK (involuntary) and a voluntary
    package in Galway, and decided that a voluntary one would be best, at
    least in the first instance.  One of the reasons was that morale among
    'stayers' was better after a voluntary thing than a forced one, where
    people would always be wondering who was going next.
    
    It's difficult to know who is right, and in any case there doesn't seem
    to be a clean nice easy way to go about getting rid of people.
    
    Ian.

    
    
    Here at UCF, we are downsizing from a 4-3day shift to a 3-5day shift.
    Quite a chunk! We were told officially that we would see the lay-off
    happen about ww50 and rumor has it at ww51. We were also asked to fill
    out a survey form. Question #1 was would you work a 5-day week? If you
    answered yes, you were to go on to question #2. (Read between the
    lines) Then it asked for you to list your shift preference days, swing,
    grave using 1,2,3. We want to know here if the package for the lay-off
    will be the same as the phase II lay-off, which was the 9 weeks and
    then severence. Management wanted us to be totally honest in our
    response to the survey. But, alot of people were concerned if they
    would get any package deal or what if they answered NO to question #1.
    We still don't know if there will even be a package and if the 60 days
    notice will cover us with this phase because of our location. This
    package business seems to be a secret until June 1 according to rumors.
    I have read in some of the notes back that the same package is good for
    this phase III, but ya never know!!!! We are so slow that people here
    wish DEC would just do the lay-off and get it over with. We are looking
    at 6-7 weeks of waiting. As far as the Security Escort, I totally agree
    and am glad that they have it. A couple of people that thought they
    would not get the "TAP" and did, TOTALLY went "OFF"!!!!!!! Scarey in 
    every aspect of this situation. 
    
    Just waiting for the "TAP", until then..........Deb

Re:              <<< Note 1444.39 by GLDOA::MORRISON "Dave" >>>

>  "All of a sudden we are not FULLY American citizens"...

Not everyone who works for Digital is an American citizen...  :-)

-  David

    Re: .42
            Deb,
    For many reasons (I can think of) the ONLY answer to ? # 1 should
    be _YES_.
    
    I would tell you all the reasons for the YES, but a lot of the 
    reasons are just my assumptions.
    
    Dan                                 out of the kitchen...............

    True, I overspoke the comment about "from the beginning". Corporations
    are somewhat public when they are publicly held and other articles seem
    to be in force in the Corporate domain, in particular equal treatment
    for gender & race in hiring. Even though the Equal Opportunity Act is a
    seperate law, it obviously derives philosophical legal basis from the
    Bill of Rights. It certainly seems that some philosphical precedents
    have been set that can cause one to expect consistency in other areas.

    Humm,
      Who's door do you have to knock on to get "The Tap"??????
      CF

    I'm still waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don't want to this to sound out of place...
    
    WHY IS ANYBODY WAITING? SHOULDN"T SOMEBODY BE WORKING?{

    
    are they collecting the chairs??

Re:      <<< Note 1444.48 by CTOAVX::BRAVERMAN "The plot thickens!" >>>

>                 -< You cant do business sitting on your A**. >-

Actually, that's how I do all my business -- phone support for customers  :-)

But I do agree with your sentiment:
    
>    WHY IS ANYBODY WAITING?  SHOULDN'T SOMEBODY BE WORKING?

-  David