Conference 7.286::digital

    Jon
    	it's difficult to get warm and fuzzies in writing. Most of the
    stuff you quote sounds like 'mom and apple pie' style reassurances.
    Given that, it really boils down to how much you believe the assurances
    were given in an organisational capacity, as opposed to a personal one.
    
    	If orgnaisational, then al should be okay. If, however, you believe
    that the assurances were given by the person involved, but they may be
    in conflict with the organisation, tehn by all means try and get it in
    writing.
    
    	Please remember tho', that unless these ARE goals of the
    organisation you're looking at joining, even paper will do you no good
    when push comes to shove.
    
    
    
    
    						- andy

    It's pretty non-threatening to say, "The details you explained to me
    about study and travel were very attractive, will they be set forth in
    the offer letter?"  You can get a pretty good idea of how real they are
    by the dialog that question opens up. 
    
    						=maggie

    Write a letter thanking the person for the interview and summarizing
    your understanding of the discussion.  It's easy, it's polite.  You
    control it.  And you get it in writing.
    
    -Don

Talk to your would be peers.  Find out if they are getting the xx per yy they
expected or were promised.  

    Forgive me if I spend too much of the past week dealing with people
    who want to get just aboult everything in writing. 
    
    OK, so you get it in writing.  And they still manage to offer you
    the job.  3 months late you find they have not been overly truthful.
    
    What do you do?
    
    

.5>    OK, so you get it in writing.  And they still manage to offer you
.5>    the job.  3 months late you find they have not been overly truthful.
.5>    
.5>    What do you do?
    
    This is exactly my fear.  If I DON'T have something in writing, then I
    have almost zero recourse.  If I DO have it in writing and things are
    not "as advertised", I may not have a lot of options, but certainly the
    number of options at that point is greater than zero. (?)  One would be
    to try to live with it as well as possible.  Another would be to start
    the job search again.  (If relocation is involved, do you need to sign
    something about staying for 2 years?  If so, can one refuse to sign
    that document?  Or is it a "corporate-understood" restriction?)
    
    Let me emphasize that I have absolutely no reason to doubt the people
    that I've talked with, both my possible future management as well as
    some of my peers there.  But when a person has been burned in the past,
    these are questions that one feels needs to be asked.
    
    Jon
    
    

    
    .3 has it correct. This goes for any one-on-one situation, where
    expectations from either side have been agreed upon.
    
    Not only does it establish what is expected of each of the parties, but
    it also allows each party to add to, or correct, any mis-conceptions in
    a gracious manner. Thus avoiding any conflicts at a later date.
    
    George. 

    A view from the field (SWS/PSS):
    
    A job may be "primarily DECfutz", "normally no more than n% travel",
    "usually has x weeks training per year"...
    
    But, the bottom line is: "we do what is needed to make money".  If that
    means that you have 2 weeks to become the local expert in DEClump
    (which you've never seen before) before you are sold as a "DEClump
    Guru", then that's life.  If it means that you have to travel (n+m)% of
    the time with (x-y) weeks training, that's life.
    
    In that case, documenting the fact of the earlier conversation gets you
    nowhere.  Usually, the assurances given are prefaced with the phrase
    "naturally, we have to bend with the business, but we usually...".
    Trying to hold people to the general info about training, travel, etc.
    would probably succeed in labeling yourself as "not a team player" and
    not a whole lot more.
    
    Chances are that you would have a better chance meeting each point
    singly as it arises, rather than saying "you haven't delivered x, y,
    and z -- I want out!".
    
    Probably the best action is to do what someone suggested earlier --
    write a "thank you" memo containing a "this is what I understood"
    section.  It may not buy you anything, but at least it is in
    black-and-white.
    
    Your mileage may vary.  Best of luck.
    
    -- Russ

    re:    <<< Note 1083.8 by NEWVAX::PAVLICEK "Zot, the Ethical Hacker" >>>
    
>    But, the bottom line is: "we do what is needed to make money".  If that
>    means that you have 2 weeks to become the local expert in DEClump
    
    An *excellent* description of life in the Field.  
    
    Digital is really a hard place to understand sometimes.  My previous
    company loved to have everything in writing, because no one had time to
    waste debating who told whom what.  We had better things to do.  Within
    DEC, it seems that a lot of people equate ambiguity with "flexibility",
    but to me it just seems to be an excuse for people to dodge taking any
    responsibility for their actions.
    
    The Japanese can afford to do business on a "handshake" basis, but they
    have a much more structured honor system than we do.  I don't advocate
    a "CYA" environment, but it seems to me that in accepting a job (or in
    any other major career event) that one is entitled to some form of
    verification that both parties understand the deal.  I also think that
    the idea of writing it yourself as a followup or as part of your
    acceptance is a great and tactful way of doing it, a way I intend to
    use in the future ...
    
    Geoff
    

The real benefit of "getting it in writing" may not be so much a Positive
one, as it would be in AVOIDING a  problem.    For  instance,  the hiring
manager  may  be  well intentioned and may be offering  you  what  he  is
entitled  to offer and intends to deliver.  That being  the  case,  there
should be no problem whatsoever with the hiring manager putting it all in
writing.  Of course, times may change and he may not be able to deliver -
through  no  fault  of  either one of you - and that's the way  it  goes.
Getting it in writing will have had not much positive benefit.

However, if you ask to get  the  whole  offer  in  writing and the hiring
manager hesitates, you have a pretty good  idea that he is up to no good.
Obviously, you are listening to promises that will  somehow find a way of
not being able to be delivered.  Much better  to find out you are dealing
with a less_than_honest manager BEFORE you sign up.

Another scenario  that  often  happens, but is seldom planned for in your
case, is that  the  hiring  manager moves on to another group.  That is a
perfect time for you  to  be  pro-active with your new manager and review
the previous commitments.  If they are  not  in  writing,  you do not not
have much chance of seeing them come to fruition.

Finally,  promises  made,  but  not  written  down,  are  often  promises
mis-understood.  Putting it in  writing is an aid to both of you.  Again,
if the hiring manager has any  problem  AT  ALL in putting it in writing,
smile and walk away.

Good luck,

Dave

    You don't seriously think that by having something in writing you could
    take it to what passes for a Personnel organization in DEC and get any
    support?  I had "it" in writing.  When the time came to fudge, I was
    simply told "things change".  Barf

    re: .11
    
    OK, I'll bite.  What exactly is it that you would expect Personnel to
    do anyway?  Personnel is a adminstrative/management consultant group.  
    Last I checked, most of the business decisions around deployment and
    utilization of people in this company were made by line managers.  The
    input of Personnel may or may not be solicited and may or may not be
    heeded in the process of making business decisions.  Anyone who thinks
    that Personnel is the place to go for problem resolution in matters
    like this is going to be very disappointed - it's simply not in their
    charter.
    
    re: in general
    
    Shit happens.  Our potential to succeed as a company is directly
    proportional to our ability to adapt to change.  Most business managers
    can tell a candidate what their job will be like given the current
    business climate.  That climate can change, however, quite rapidly. No
    responsible manager can make iron-clad promises like those outlined in 
    .0 and expect to keep them consistently over the long term.
    
    Al
    

.0

It never hurts to ensure that you understand a situation fully, even if it
invloves getting things in writing.  At the very least you may want to
paraphrase each statement and objective expressed by your "potential" new
manager.  Write this information down during your initial interview, and
if you're invited for a followup interview, you can revisit each item in
detail.   

Ask the new manager to review the current job description with you and then
ask the manager if it is possible to rewrite the description or make
ammendments in accordance with what you believe to be the "real" job.   

I usually ask the manager to agree to a three or six month review of my
activities before I accept the position.  The short review process acts as
a buffer between you and your manager and allows you to identify any
shortcommings from your initial agreement.  

Finally, ask your new manager to help establish your goals (in writing)
long before your first review occurs.  Everyone needs clear goals ( where
possible) to maintain a positive attitude.  

Money...always an issue, but money is usually determined before you accept
the position, and then specified in the offer letter.

Trust is most important and is usually the result of a mutual understanding.
Business is business, but a sincere attitude about your own future is
nothing to hide.

Good luck,

Sean 






       <<< Note 1083.0 by TIXEL::ARNOLD "Real men don't set for stun" >>>
              -< Can/should one 'get it in writing' comfortably? >-

    Suppose that one is interviewing for a different job position,
    and in the course of an interview, various things are talked
    about, all of which sound quite interesting.  During an interview,
    suppose that the "bottom line" seems to be:

    "If we make an offer, we'll be hiring you for your expertise 
    with the DECmumble software, because we've got many customers
    and specialists in this area who need DECmumble expertise."

    During the course of the interview, several things were discussed,
    including:

    * We have a strong commitment towards training, and make every
      attempt to have our sws folks attend at least 'xx' training
      courses per 'yy'.  In addition to keeping your skills keen in
      your primary area of expertise, we also encourage you to learn
      more about another area/technology that you would choose.

    * In terms of out of town travel, you can expect that it will be
      at least xx% but generally not more than yy%.

    * If you indicate an interest in doing this, we would be willing
      to allow you to allocate xx% of your time per week to gaining
      more familiarity with the DECfratz software.

    etc, etc.  Now the question: Would it be "proper", prior to
    agreeing to accept the position if it is offered, to ask for these
    things in writing from your new manager?  Or would that seem to
    indicate to your new manager that you don't trust him/her, cause
    him/her to be offended at such a request, and/or possibly putting
    a "wall" between you & your new manager before you even start the
    new position?

    What are your feelings/reactions?
    Jon

.13>I usually ask the manager to agree to a three or six month review of my
.13>activities before I accept the position.  The short review process acts as
.13>a buffer between you and your manager and allows you to identify any
.13>shortcommings from your initial agreement.  

    Huh?  I can understand that *after* you've accepted a new position,
    that you may want to ask for a 3/6 month review of your activities so
    make sure that you & your new manager are in synch with what you are
    doing vs what is expedted, but *before you accept the position*??  How
    would that be possible??
    
.13>Money...always an issue, but money is usually determined before you accept
.13>the position, and then specified in the offer letter.

    Was I asleep at the switch again?  I thought, probably via another note
    in this conference, that a transfer within the same "group" (ie, not
    sales to sws or field service to sales, but sws to sws or sws/e to
    sws), whether or not relocation was involved, was *required* to be a
    lateral transfer in terms of job/jec code, title, *and* salary.  (?)
    Seems to me that was discussed here as a semi-major bugaboo about, for
    example, someone transferring from the midwest to say New York where
    the *general* (no flames please) cost of living is significantly
    higher, but people were expected to do a lateral salary transfer as
    well?  Or did I miss something along with way?
    
    Jon

.14>Huh?  I can understand that *after* you've accepted a new position,
    that you may want to ask for a 3/6 month review of your activities so
    make sure that you & your new manager are in synch with what you are
    doing vs what is expedted, but *before you accept the position*??  How
>>>>would that be possible??
    
You simply ask for it as a part of the agreement for accepting the new 
position.  I've had such things specified in the offer letter, of course
that was in a new job, not an internal transfer.  The least they can say is
no and that is a sign in itself.  

.14>Was I asleep at the switch again?  I thought, probably via another note
    in this conference, that a transfer within the same "group" (ie, not
    sales to sws or field service to sales, but sws to sws or sws/e to
    sws), whether or not relocation was involved, was *required* to be a
    lateral transfer in terms of job/jec code, title, *and* salary.  (?)
    Seems to me that was discussed here as a semi-major bugaboo about, for
    example, someone transferring from the midwest to say New York where
    the *general* (no flames please) cost of living is significantly
    higher, but people were expected to do a lateral salary transfer as
>>>>well?  Or did I miss something along with way?
    
Jon, please ask your Supervisor or PSA to answer this question.

Good luck,

Sean

    The only thing I might add to what's been said already is that you may
    want to think of this document in terms of a "job plan" rather than a
    term of an offer letter.  Also, keep in mind WHY you want x% travel or
    y% of time on training, etc.; emphasize the objectives/goals of x and
    y, with x and y as mere vehicles.  The goals probably won't change all
    that much (after all, they are your career goals), but x and y may need
    to be viewed in a more flexible manner.  In other words, I'd
    concentrate more on what I want to achieve rather than possibly
    appearing nitpicky about the "details".  
    
    FWIW.