Conference 7.286::digital

    In a presentation at ZKO cafeteria last week, 7 June, Jack Smith said
    that the Executive Committee is reviewing four incentive proposals.  He
    did not specifically say they were to incent people to leave the
    company.  
    
    He did say, paraphrased,1) such incentive programs are very difficult
    to implement on a one-shot deal, that they tend to become
    institutionalized; and 2) that the Executive Committee looks to their
    operational line managers to tell them, the EC, what is needed to help
    curb costs.  
    
    The feeling I got was that there is not much enthusiasm for such a
    program, and that we are not close to implementing such a program, but
    that they are being kept in the back pocket in case we cannot curb
    costs by other means.
    
    Marge

    re: .0
    
    For some background discussion on this issue, check 598.*
    
    You'll note that this discussion has been around for some time.
    Marge's reply indicates that it may be closer to reality than it
    has been in times past.
    
    Keep in mind that any media hype about such a plan is probably just
    that -- hype.
    
    FWIW
    
    -- Russ

    some of the people with more 'marketable' skills view the salary
    freeze as an incentive to leave.... :-)

re. Note 838.3 

>    some of the people with more 'marketable' skills view the salary
>    freeze as an incentive to leave.... :-)

A real incentive to leave is when you find out what your customers
are paying their employee's. $$

- Mike

RE Note 838.6 

>    Just the facts please - label rumours as rumours - and accept the
>    consequences of spreading such.
    
The Facts are that a current customer is advertising for a Sr. Programmer
Analyst at 55 to 65 K.   And that's a Fact!  

- Mike

    
    I wasn't referring to your note. I was referring to .5, which has been
    deleted by its author, apparently. 
    
    Incidentally there will ALWAYS be someone willing to pay more. The
    differences between different companies are not solely salary.
    
    - a

    re .7
    
    One small caution regarding jobs that appear to offer more money
    is to NOT map one job title to another job title.  To get a more
    accurate feel if the jobs are the SAME, you would need to map
    job content to job content.  A title is just that, a title.
    
    Carla
    

    This is my last day at Digital, so it seems appropriate to comment.
    
    I have worked in the field here for almost 5 years, starting in
    SWS customer support, then presales in its infancy (ie: just me
    supporting over 20 sales reps on *all* products!)...
    then the District Network Team (both SWS and later SALES), and finally
    the District Worksystem Team sales rep.
    
    I am going off to work for a small consulting company in town, and
    my only real honest to goodness incentive to leave was $$.  I could
    rationalize all kinds of other excuses, all valid, around opportunity,
    smaller company, chance to make solid visible contribution, etc
    etc.  All those things are true, and more.  But you know the old
    saying, Money Talks!  It is hard to argue with a $30K+ increase over
    last years pay.                                       
                                                          
    On the other hand, Digital is a tremendous place to work!  Nowhere can
    I imagine working for a company with 120,000+ employees and have the
    same freedom to manage one's own destiny and direction. 
                                                          
    With that luxury comes a lot of pain also.  The company continues
    to grow, and change is not always managed successfully.  We have
    and will likely continue to be perpetually resource constrained,
    and in constant flux.  What kept me alive was the access to resources,
    contacts and information, through Notes, Mail and regular focussed
    training.                                             
                                                          
    I'm  sorry to leave.                           
                                                          
    thx - rick z.                                         
                                                          

>>  Money Talks!  It is hard to argue with a $30K+ increase over
>>  last years pay.                                       
.
.
.
>>  I'm  sorry to leave.                           

No you're not!   Anyone offered that kind of increase, unless they are already
well into 6 figures starting with a "2", would take it.

Bet it tends to make your manager wonder what they see in you that he didn't,
though!  8^)

Good luck to you.

Bob

re: .11

> No you're not!   Anyone offered that kind of increase [+30K], unless they
> are already well into 6 figures starting with a "2", would take it.

I'm nowhere near six figures but believe I could get that kind of offer
outside of DEC, and it isn't enough to get me out the door.

When headhunters call I usually refuse to even listen.  This startles
them but I reply, "why listen?  If it's a bad offer it's a waste of my
time.  If it's a great salary I'll just be bothered by it, because I
have no intention of leaving my job at this time".

I _decide_ where I want to work; I don't just follow some cash cow.

I've worked at a lot of companies; believe me, there's more important
things than salary.  A good environment, co-workers, managers, resources,
and opportunities is worth an awful lot to me contrasted with raw
salary.

- greg

re: .12 (greg)

You're right.  Salary isn't everything, or even the main thing.  But a
$30,000+ increase can make up for a lot of other perks that may be
lacking with another company!  8^)

In the final analysis, we work because we have to provide for our families.
A house, food, clothes, an education, etc, all cost money.

Yes, the JOB is usually MOST important, but the salary isn't far behind.

And for THAT significant an increase, I think most people would be happy to 
try the job.

Bob

    re: salary isn't everything
    
    Very true.  Best job description I ever had was doing some great
    S/W development for an OEM in Connecticut a few years back.  Great
    people to work with, great job description, lots of freedom, great
    customer feedback...
    
    Problem was that I wasn't making enough to feed and clothe my family
    (we have _very_ modest tastes, BTW).  I had to leave for the welfare
    of my family.  In less than two years time, my income rose 56% percent
    and I was able to make ends meet (no I'm not making big bucks; my
    old salary was nowhere near market level).
    
    Thankfully, I now make enough to keep things going at home financially.
    My heart goes out to those who have to rip themselves away from
    a great job environment because they simply can't make it work
    financially.
    
    FWIW,
    
    -- Russ

    .14
    
    Sounds like you represent the Banking and Insurance world too,
    ie., nice people, nice atmosphere etc. etc. but no $$$$
    
    Lloyd

    Salary is only important in relation to the cost of living.  I couldn't
    afford the house I have here in Atlanta in Connecticut (where I
    used to live) if I made twice what I'm making here.  Ten years ago,
    my real estate taxes on a $50,000 home in Connecticut were $2,000
    a year (I shudder to think what they are today.)  In Atlanta, taxes
    on a $200,000 house are less than $2000.  
    
    One can ALWAYS find a job that pays more money, but that doesn't
    gurantee a better standard of living.   

    
    
     Call me a CASH COW! Money speaks, people listen. 30K screams...
    
    It's all in how mush B.S. one can deal with. B.S./CASH=satisfaction
    
    Give me 30k a year more and I'll start hooking up humidifers to
    a LAVC and get the working!!!
    
    Mike Z.

RE .8    
    
>    Incidentally there will ALWAYS be someone willing to pay more. The
>    differences between different companies are not solely salary.
    
Andy don't get me wrong I'm not about to follow a cash cow, and I have
no intentions of leaving digital.  Besides, I've only been here 11 month's
and I like the people I work with and the atmosphere.  But do you know the 
current price 3 bedroom ranch in L.I. NY..   Brand new on a 50x100 plot
$275,000.00.   Not to mention the taxes.  

Asside,
We had a fellow leave our group for 30K more a couple of month's ago
and he hate's it!  Enough said!  I like Digital but I like to live also!

- Mike

re .12
>
> I've worked at a lot of companies; believe me, there's more important
> things than salary.  A good environment, co-workers, managers, resources,
> and opportunities is worth an awful lot to me contrasted with raw
> salary.
>
    If you've worked at a lot of other companies, you're probably making
    good money here.  However, after a few years salary comperssion
    sets in, and your salary starts to fall behind.
    
A friend of mine worked here for 6 years, left, and returned 2 years later
making 35K more than he did when he left.  Now, that's a heck of a raise!

RE: .-1

Leaving DEC and coming back isn't quite so easy any more.  It requires vice
presidential approval for an ex-DEC person to come back in most organizations 
and some vice presidents will not approve any returns.

A friend of mine left to work for a while "in the real world".  He did not
work for a competitor.  He did not leave for a raise.  A group wanted very
badly to hire him back.  He wanted to come back.  A VP would not approve
and it wasn't because of past performance.

re:   <<< Note 838.19 by OS2DNP::Cloutier "NOTES-PC - we HAVE the technology!" >>>

>                      -< What about salary compression.. >-

What about it?

>> . re .12
>>
>> I've worked at a lot of companies; believe me, there's more important
>> things than salary.  A good environment, co-workers, managers, resources,
>> and opportunities is worth an awful lot to me contrasted with raw
>> salary.
>>
>    If you've worked at a lot of other companies, you're probably making
>    good money here.  However, after a few years salary comperssion
>    sets in, and your salary starts to fall behind.
    
Been here 10 years; don't really feel compensation is just.
But I plan on staying anyway.  I've never worked anywhere that
there wasn't some problem.  Sometimes it's the salary, sometimes
it's the boss, sometimes it's the product.  But it's always something.

However, I FULLY support anyone who seeks better bucks because
they need it to sustain their family at the level them deem
appropriate.  I view salary as [neccesary + niciety] --- what you
do after you reach "necessary" is your business.

- greg

    I have worked very closely with Rick Z. of reply .-(?) who wrote
    about his last day here. At the end of the day Friday we took him
    to a local pub for some brews and BS session. Rick paid for the
    drinks ! Not to show off his new "wealth", but he felt a genuine
    sense of debt to Digital and his coworkers, in a tough market here
    in Toronto. People from all aspects of Digital Field operations
    showed up- from Sales Reps, Software Specs to District managers
    and Product Marketing managers and Field Service.
    
    I hate to see Rick go, and when he announced his intentions to me,
    before he made the final decision, I felt betrayed. He is/was the
    epitome of a Digital employee - he cared, and always tried to do
    the right thing. He worked long hours many times, not because he
    had to, but felt he needed to put in the extra effort in "order
    to make this sale" or "do good by this customer" or "not let the
    boys in software down", etc. He was an enthusiastic frontline fighter
    who loved/loves Digital and is truly sorry to leave.
    
    But, as others have pointed out, some things have priority. I've
    always maintained the prioritization is  1) your family 2) your
    health 3) your job . Well, Rick's family needs were not being met
    by his salary, even though he received regular performance raises
    (most recent was almost 20%).         
    
    He's more than a little afraid and nervous about his new job, because
    he's a man with high moral and ethical standards, and Consulting firms 
    around here (Toronto) are generally considered sleazy at the best of times.
         
    The irony is, a $30,000 increase in pay wasn't required to help
    Rick's domestic situation.If that very high 20% pay increase he got
    not long ago had been 30 or even 25%, just that once, he would have
    been more than happy to not NOT leave the company. 
    
    His kind of talent and ability will be sorely missed around here.
    
    Scooter

> Leaving DEC and coming back isn't quite so easy any more.  It requires vice
> presidential approval for an ex-DEC person to come back in most organizations 
> and some vice presidents will not approve any returns.

    If vice presidents in DEC do spend time dealing with such low level
    matters, then they are wasting some of their incredibly valuable time.

    Denis.

                             Incentive to Leave?

             I was asking for people to stop ratholing the topic.