Conference 7.286::digital

    I would feel offended, since my personal privacy had been breached.
    If the Digital employee were not my supervisor, I would wonder how
    the employee had learned about my salary.
    
    You didn't ask, but I would take the following action: I would talk
    to the employee identified, to try to sensitize the employee to
    my desire for personal privacy in this matter.  If necessary, I
    would mention that salaries are Confidential information.  If that
    didn't have a positive effect, I would talk to my supervisor about
    the problem.  If my supervisor was the offending employee and the first
    discussion wasn't beneficial, I would exercise my right under the
    Open Door Policy to talk to my supervisor's supervisor.
        John Sauter

    This is interesting... our civil servants all have posted public
    salaries. I've seen them: posted in the hallway for EVERYONE to
    see. It doesn't seem to disrupt the work environment too much (I'm
    being somewhat facetious here).
    
    Technically, I feel we should all be a bit less worried about our
    salaries and focus on our abilities/capabilities - after all, money
    does not describe me!
    
    Emotionally, I am still reacting to my upbringing: money is a
    confidential thing.
    
    However, until the DEC rules change, we get to live with them, and
    I thought that one of them was the confidentiality of salary. If
    this other set of people were not working for DEC, I would shrug
    it off, and get on with life. Every customer I have dealt with sooner
    or later asks what my salary with DEC is, and I'm very inventive
    with my responses (perhaps I should run for president!!  :-)   )
    
    Bruce Evans, Santa Clara

    I would ask the neighbor how much he heard I earned.
    Whatever number he told me, correct or incorrect,
    I would then laugh. That would cast enough doubt on
    the data itself and on the story teller.
    
    What I would do at DEC would depend on whether the
    salary number was correct or not. If not correct or
    close, I would probably ignore it.
    
    It it was the correct salary, I would go two places: personnel
    and the salary teller's superior under the open door policy.
    I would skip going to the teller himself.
    
    I would take the repeating of the correct salary as proof
    (preponderance of the evidence) that an infraction had been
    committed. 

    I agree with Tom in .3.  As to how I would react to it would depend
    on whether it was a supervisor (who would probably know the correct
    figure but has absolutely no business talking to anyone abou it)
    or another employee (who would presumably not have access to such
    information, and I'd be curious how he/she knew the figure).
    
    My reaction would probably be less than some others, since I worked
    for a university for several years, and the salaries of all college
    employees were published in the newspaper yearly.  No, it didn't
    mention names specifically, but when the employee's title is "Senior
    Programmer" and there's only one of them, it doesn't take alot to
    figure it out.
    
    Good luck
    Jon

    I too agree with .3...and I too was in an organization with salaries
    fixed to rank (the Military).
    
    However, the private sector (and the operative word is PRIVATE)
    is considerably different in it's hiring practices, for very good
    reasons which I could ramble on for hours about.  Suffice it to
    say that when I was in the service, public knowlege of pay was highly
    acceptable...but in private organizations like DEC it is intolerable.
    
    Doug

    I think you will find the best answer in .3...go to personnel and
    then the teller's supervisor (I'd do it in that order).  I would
    probably discuss it with my own supervisor first, but only because
    I have great trust in him.
    
    Doug

	I believe blabbing about someone's salary is more offensive than 
	rifling a desk.  I'd probably meet together with the perp, the 
	perp's super, the perp's personnel rep, my p. rep, and my super.
	I'd keep it all verbal, and therefore eradicable, unless I didn't
	like what I heard.  It would be an interesting little meeting.
	One likes to dispel boredom.

	The only question is why the perp need continue working among us.

	Regards, Robert.

	But...

	I believe in Europe salary isn't the Deep Secret it is in
	the USA.  Would that make a difference?

	I remember a tense moment at lunch once when a European 
	visiting employee asked one of us what his salary was.  
	It wasn't at DEC.

	Regards, R.

	PS  I think the person actually answered.  I forget what he said.

    The issue here isn't revealing the salary, per se, but rather
    disclosing personal information that is supposed to be confidential. I
    wouldn't mind my salary being disclosed if all salaries were normally
    disclosed. 
    
    In Europe, or the military, all the salaries are known. I don't see a
    major problem with that (although I prefer them confidential). 

    It seems like there are several possible issues here:
    
    Violations of confidentiality.  If the perpetrator had authorized
    access to your salary information, and distributed it *without*
    authorization, he should be severly dealt with.
    
    Theft of confidential information.  If the perpetrator did not
    have authorized access to your salary information in the first
    place, the assumption would be that he obtained it illegally.
    This would be in addition to the violation of confidentiality.
    
    Bad taste.  Given the efforts to standardize and to "level"
    salaries these days, it's not altogether hard to guess what a
    peer's salary would be, even for someone at another level, at
    least to within a thousand bucks.  But to talk about someone
    else's salary, guesstimates or whatever, is in bad taste.  I
    don't know if it would be against the rules, though ...

    If it turns out to be one of the first two, I would immediately
    notify Personnel and my own management.  If it's the third, I
    would make the person aware that I regarded his actions as being
    indiscreet and ask him to desist.

    
    Geoff

    
>>    In Europe, or the military, all the salaries are known. I don't see a
>>    major problem with that (although I prefer them confidential). 


Tom, I do not know what part of Europe you are from, but I have lived
many years in Switzerland, have lived in the UK and now live in Germany
and have been many times to France and Italy.

In none of the above countries was I familiar with salaries being openly
publicized. In Switzerland and Germany, salaries are considered very private.

The actions I took were the following:

          0. Shrugged off my neighbors comments and explained how ridiculous
             the comment was.

          1. Immediately notified the personnel department that there appeared
             to be a leak in the system. However I kept the offenders name
             completely out of the formal complaint.

          2. Contacted my manager first thing on Monday morning and told him
             what had happened.

          3. Waited two days and then wrote the individual a strong message
             and indicated that he had broken his contract by speaking
             about confidential matters to non-involved people (yes, in Germany
             DEC employees are prohibited to discuss salaries. This is a formal
             part of their working contract) and pointed out what type of
             consequences his carelessness could result in.

         4.  Then I waited. My mail was quite explosive and the person knew
             he was dealing with one mad manager.

         5.  The individual called to arrange a meeting with me and I gracefully
             let him talk his way out of the predicament. He was in quite an
             uncomfortable situation, realizing that my neighbor had leaked his
             name to me.

I deliberately did not want to mention the individual's name, because I first
wanted to talk to him personally and I am the opinion he was just gossiping 
to show off as to how knowledgeable he was about Digital affairs.

    re: .12

>                                                          (yes, in Germany
>         DEC employees are prohibited to discuss salaries. This is a formal
>         part of their working contract)
    
    Interesting.  Is there a similar regulation buried in the P&P manual
    for the US?  I have always been under the impression that my salary
    was my own business, and that I could tell it to whoever I wanted to.
    Does this mean I'm breaking the rules every time I fill out a credit
    application (or brag to my girlfriend :^) ?

    Geoff

    While I've never seen it written anywhere, I was told two things
    about salaries and Digital as a new hire by my manager:
    
    1) My salary was between me, my manager, and, if necessary, personnel.
       My salary was not to be discussed with ANYONE else, inside or
       outside of Digital.  Doing so is grounds for dismissal.
    
    2) I was entitled to know my salary range and the next higher pay
       grade range.  Other than that information (which came from my
       manager), salary information in confidential.  See number 1.
    
    Of course, I think credit applications (etc.) are an exception (to the
    unwritten rule ?)  I think, though, the intent is clear.
                                                   
    That's my two cents... (as a new-hire in 12/87)    
                                                   
    Todd                                           
                                                   

Oh, I don't think you folks understand.  These are outsiders, ie, NOT
MY FAMILY, discussing my salary.

1)  The question.  Asked of my neighbor.  "Which fellow employee was
that?"

2)  The knee.  Firmly in the groin of the neighbor.  "Won't be mentioning
THAT any more, will you?"

3)  The knee.  Firmly in the groin of the employee.  "Won't be mentioning
THAT any more, will you?"

No problem.  
/harv

    Re .9, .10, .12, .14: As far as public knowledgw of salaries are
    concerned, here is the situation in DEC FRANCE:
    -Employees' salaries are confidential and discussed only between
    the employee, his manager, and, should the need arise, Personel.
    -Ranges are confidential too. A manager knows about ranges only enough
    to deal with his subordinates' salaries, which means that in 99%
    of the occurences, he doesn't know his own range (the exceptions
    being very rare cases where a manager has a subordinate who is at
    the same rank as himself).
    A few years ago in a general meeting of DEC FRANCE managers, the
    question was raised as to whether or not the ranges should be
    published. A vote was taken which gave very near a 50%-50% result,
    so the upper management decided to keep the ranges confidential.
    			Denis.

    Here in the UK there is no actual policy that I am aware of concerning
    confidentiality of salaries however, it is usually considered a
    matter between you and your manager as to your actual salary amount.
    One would expect this to be covered by the normal confidential
    information rules.(I am sure that if there is an actual policy that
    somebody will let us know-I haven't actually looked)
    
    As far as ranges go, you are allowed to know the salary range for
    your level and the one either side.
    
    Jim
    (Bearing in mind how reserved we British are, we don't need any
    rules to make us keep our salaries secret!)

    re .several: Yes, the salaries are usually secret in Europe - at
    least in some countries (Germany, Switzerland) it is customary to
    have a clear statement of that fact in your contract. In practice,
    I don't think it's enforced very strictly - I have never heard of
    anyone having had any trouble. It is not common to discuss about
    salaries, but it does happen.
    
    There has been some discussion about whether the ranges should be
    public or not. A year or two ago, the Betriebsrat (Works Council)
    here in Munich published a complete range table (I think it's still
    somewhere in this conference). The management didn't like it though.
    
    

    Perhaps I missed it.....
    
    How did this person get your salary figures in the first place?
    
    steve.

Question for the base note author:  Did you ever tell your
salary to anyone else at DEC?

I've never told my salary to anyone at DEC (except, of course,
in talks with a supervisor or manager), nor have I ever had
anyone else tell me his or her salary.  However, I've been
told that among many employees, it's common to talk about
their own salaries and ask friends what they make.

My point is this: If you ever told your salary to someone
else at DEC, even if the person isn't the "perpetrator" in
this instance, you probably gave the not-very-subtle indication
that you didn't regard your own salary as confidential,
and that you expected (and maybe even hoped) the person
you talked to would pass it on.  On the other hand, if
you've never told your salary figure to someone else (except
in meetings one would expect to be confidential -- e.g.,
with Personnel), then you have a very legitimate gripe.
And in this case, you and lots of "higher-ups" should
be very interested in finding out how that person found
out your salary.

>    1) My salary was between me, my manager, and, if necessary, personnel.
>       My salary was not to be discussed with ANYONE else, inside or
>       outside of Digital.  Doing so is grounds for dismissal.

I heard this, too, way back in 1975, so the story has been around for a long
time.  But it doesn't seem to be part of any policy.  There are policies which
say that DEC may not reveal personal information, but no policies that say that
I can't tell all of you that my annual salary is $94,205.

/john

    
    The policy manual for Digital/Denmark states the following, loosely
    translated:
    
    SALARY POLICY
    
    Digital's salary policy is closed/confidential. This means that
    anyone with access, via their job, to salaries other than their own
    must keep this info confidential.
    
    
    Thus, there is no written rule against telling others how much you
    make. You just can't divulge what other's make.
    
    Regards,
    
    Geoff
    
    
    
    

re: .19
    This is not perhaps *THE* most important issue (i.e. How did they get
    the info?) but it is, nevertheless important. I would tend to agree
    that more importantly, regardless of how the info was obtained, no
    one has a right to divulge that without the subject party's say so.

re: .11
    Violation of confidentiality is part of it, as above.
    With or without such violation, theft or bad taste are not necessarily
    the only sources of such information. As has been pointed out, it
    is possible that the subject party may have leaked the info to someone
    who leaked the info to someone who . . . (I'm not suggesting that in this
    particular case, but just as a general observation.) Another possible
    source I've seen all too often is the "Thursday discards" - employee
    receives sealed blue thingee, opens it to remove check or look at stub and
    promptly tosses stub in open trash container in full view of anybody
    walking by who wants to look. Is it wrong to look? Of course! Is it
    a "punishable offense"? Probably not. (But the divulging of what was
    seen is still punsihable.))

    -Jack

    re: .19, .24
    The reason that I would see the source as important is that there
    may be more than one person going around talking about salaries...
    As was stated, the person who spread the information had no normal,
    legitimate access to that information.  Thus, it is entirely possible
    that *someone* else (manager, finance, secretary, or?) told the
    person who spread it, and *that* person also needs to be corrected.
    
    Kevin Farlee

        If you really care what the policy is, check the relevant
        Personnel Policies and Procedures manual for your geography.
        The laws (and hence the policies) can and do differ from one
        country to another.  For the U.S., the entire PP&P manual can
        be read, on-line, in the ORANGEBOOK infobase that's part of
        the corporate VTX library.  (If you can't figure out how to
        access the corporate VTX library from your system, contact
        your system manager for help.)
        
        That said, in my opinion, it is bad manners in almost any country
        to disclose personal information about another person UNLESS that
        person disclosed the information with the intent that it be
        disseminated.  (In some countries, it may be illegal to do this,
        even if the person shared the information with you expecting you
        to disseminate it further -- aren't privacy laws wonderful?) 
        
        HOWEVER, while it may be a social breach of etiquette, that
        shouldn't make it a firing offense (in my opinion), UNLESS the
        information was obtained surreptitiously.  For instance, if you
        got someone else's salary by rifling through their desk or
        wastebasket looking for their pay stub, and then disclosed it,
        that's (in my humble opinion) a firing offense.  On the other
        hand, if the person showed you their pay stub, or left it lying
        out in a conspicuous place where you (and others) would be likely
        to see it, while you probably shouldn't disclose the information
        to others, you shouldn't be fired for doing so. 
        
        As for disclosing your own salary to others, it's really up to you
        to decide if this is appropriate.  In making the decision, you
        should probably consider the impact this might have on the morale
        of either yourself or others in your group, and the side effects
        such impact might have on your supervisor's opinion of you as a
        productive, helpful, and beneficial member of the group.  (In
        other words, if you're doing it just to make waves and create
        trouble, you probably shouldn't do it.)  There are clearly times
        when you will need to disclose (and prove) your salary to others
        outside Digital -- for instance, in applying for a loan.  You
        can't be fired for disclosing your salary when it's appropriate to
        do so, and you probably can't be fired for disclosing your salary
        when it's inappropriate to do so, but doing it when it's
        inappropriate *could* have undesirable side effects. 
        
        Tom

    I've seen it written in articles somewhere that at a certain business
    machine company based in Armonk, disclosing your salary or anyone
    else's is a firing offense.
    
    They don't want anyone to know what anyone else makes.  Period.
    Digital probably doesn't care if someone discloses his own salary,
    but disclosing someone else's is probably close -- Personnel
    Confidential is supposed to be the highest category of classification!
    
    I also believe that one's job code is personnel confidential too,
    except on a need to know basis.  And there's about a 40% salary
    range within each job code.  (This to prevent "leveling" -- the
    practice of refusing to deal as a peer with someone of a lower job
    level.  Its avoidance is one of Digital's nice practices.)

RE: .-1

>    I also believe that one's job code is personnel confidential too,
>    except on a need to know basis.  And there's about a 40% salary
>    range within each job code.  (This to prevent "leveling" -- the
>    practice of refusing to deal as a peer with someone of a lower job
>    level.  Its avoidance is one of Digital's nice practices.)


	Jobs codes are associated with job titles in the JOBS infobase, and
in any hardcopy list I've ever seen also, so, if you know title, you
effectively know code.  "Level" has always been associated with salary in my 
days with DEC, never with the job code.

        While, in the strictest sense, levels are associated with salary
        and not job codes, there is an essentially functional mapping from
        job codes (but not necessarily from job titles) to salary range
        levels, so if you know someone's job code, you can figure out
        their salary level (if you have the right translation table). 
        
        It's a little harder going from job titles to job codes, since
        there may be more than one job code associated with the same job
        title.  For instance, there are two job codes (F15 and F5I)
        associated with the "Marketing Consultant" job title. However,
        both job codes fall into the same salary level. 
        
        Tom

    There are four classes of proprietary information and they are all
    supposed to be protected according to their 'value' to the
    company. One of these classfications is DIGITAL PERSONAL. The 
    description of this is:
    
    "Information classified in this category indicates that the information
     is personal data about individuals AND IS PROTECTED BY LAW. Such
     information will be distributed in accordance with local law and
     an absolute need-to-know." (emphasis mine)
    
        

A while back, some asked whether I had passed on my salary to other people.
The answer is NO. I have been very careful about any type of compensation to
me.

- My father told me many years back that you never talk about your salary
and your love life. When I was a boy, I did not know what a love-life was,
but I could relate a salary to my allowance.

I have spoken to the individual, and he said he had made a guess, based on my
experience and job expectations. He strongly denied having any inside
information and I have accepted his reasoning. 

Personnel has said however that they will send a mail to all personnel and 
finance employees stating that a salary was leaked and that each individual 
should be very careful about dealing with confidential personal information.

    At least in USA, one could also make a guess about someone's income
    pretty accurately if they have recently purchased real estate.  By
    fudging around with the rule of 28 (and 32) one can easily come up with
    the annual salary of the family.  It becomes lot more easier since many
    people will knowingly announce how great deal they got in terms of
    buying price, interest rate and down payment. 
    
- Vikas

    The purchase price of real estate is public knowledge by law in
    Massachusetts. However, I don't think you can infer anything about
    income from that unless you already have good reason to know that the
    purchase is on the hairy edge of affordability and the financing is
    through the standard lending organizations. Even then any conclusions
    hang on only one person with an income. 

    Hmm...  I agree disclosing salaries is very bad.  But a firing offense?
    
    I know people who leave their paystubs lying around their
    desktops.  (I've resisted the urge to peek.)  An absent-minded
    colleague at another company once idly asked, "What model of computer
    is this on our paychecks?" and held it up to me.  (That time I peeked
    8^)
    
    If someone leaves a paystub on top of his desk, and I see it, and
    I mention it, and I'm fired, couldn't I claim entrapment?
    
    On a related subject, in my opinion salary ranges should not be
    restricted information.  I believe I have a legitimate right to
    know the salary range of any job to which I might aspire.  It also
    cuts to the truth of any statements about comparable worth:
    
    	"Of course we value hardware engineers as much as 
    	software engineers!"
    
    	"Then why are the pay ranges $x,000 apart?"
    
    	"(Gurgle)"

    It wouldn't be entrapment unless somebody asks you with the intent of
    catching you in a violation if you say something. Usually entrapment is
    the result of a "set up": a situation (such as leaving a paycheck
    exposed); an otherwise "unwilling" victim; and an opportunity for a
    violation. 

    .16 & .34
    
    Salary ranges are published and well known by management.  I HAVE
    to know the ranges and every specialist in my district's current salary
    so that I can participate in the annual salary plan.
    
    You can get the salary range for your current job code, for the
    next higher level than your current one, and for equivalent laterals
    to other organizations simple by asking personnel.
    
    The philosophy of limiting you to only one step higher than your
    own comes from the philosophy that you should be looking at the
    future advancement of another position and not just as a means of
    increasing your current salary.  Since your salary follows you to
    your new assignment, the range is only an issue if your current
    salary is outside of the new range.
    
    If your current salary is BELOW the minimal of the new range, your
    new manager has 90 days to fix it by bringing your salary up to
    at least the bottom of the range.
    
    If your current salary is ABOVE the top of the new range, your new
    manager had better advise you that there is little possibility you
    will get a raise while in the new position.  (why would you want
    that job?)
    
    Have fun!
    
    Tim

    There is another note in this conferrence that makes it obvious
    to me why the corporation and your local management would want you
    to keep quiet about your salary.  For the same reason the corporation
    and your management would want everyone else to keep quiet about
    your salary.  In addition to the internal problems it could cause
    (interpersonal) it could enable headhunters and outside personnel
    types to know what to offer to compete with us.  How else would
    all that data be available for the internally distributed comparisons
    between DEC and outside salaries?  Don't forget, in your discussion
    of who knows how much you make, that your supervisor's secretary
    types up the salary plans.  His supervisor and secretary do the
    same. and personnel at both ends do the same.  Great opportunity
    for a leak.

re: < Note 638.37 by PH4VAX::MCBRIDE "scalp burns before skin surface" >
                             -< other thoughts... >-

>                                    Don't forget, in your discussion
>    of who knows how much you make, that your supervisor's secretary
>    types up the salary plans.  His supervisor and secretary do the
>    same. and personnel at both ends do the same.  Great opportunity
>    for a leak.

  It hasn't worked that way in the organizations I've been with for the
last few years. At least this is one thing that SMS seems to have helped
with - nobody needs to see/type the data (e.g. secretaries) except those
who have some "ownership" of the collections. (FYI, my "collection" as
a supervisor consists of my direct reports, my boss's "collection" includes
mine, plus myself, plus his other direct reports and any "collections"
of theirs, etc.)

-Jack

    Re: [.37]:
    
    >> There is another note in this conference that makes it obvious to
    >> me why the corporation and your local management would want you to keep
    >> quiet about your salary... It could enable headhunters and outside
    >> personnel types to know what to offer to compete with us.  How else
    >> would 

    I don't know about you, but all the headhunters I've ever dealt with
    were intimately familiar with proffered salaries.  After all, they get
    a percentage for themselves and their agencies. 

	Headhunters might know point salaries on some jobs, but I doubt they 
have the overall picture.  Ranges, for one, would be tough to figure.

	For one thing, just how much has DEC used agencies for permanent hires
in the last few years?  The 9 US Field Areas are STRONGLY discouraged from
using agencies since it hits their margins on the expense side.  The Southern
Area has dedicated people in Sales and SWS to do resume gathering, prospect
qualification, etc. in concert with Personnel just to avoid agencies. 

    
    Re .40,  some groups in DEC make extensive use of agencies.  The
    semiconductor operation for one.  In past years, I have had two
    employee referals end up in headhunter's hands, where the headhunter
    acted as a go between between DEC and the potential employee.  In one 
    case I had personally handed the resume to the internal DEC recruiter.
    In the other case, I told the person who to send the resume to.
    They were then contacted by a headhunter.  
    
    Regarding this topic, if DEC salaries are to be kept confidential,
    then there should be a policy regarding the handling of pay
    checks/stubs!  In our group, 50 some pay stubs are thrown in a pile
    on a secretaries desk on thursday morning and usually, but not always,
    locked up on thursday evening before they leave.  The desk is
    unattended at least 50% of the time, and people pick up their paycheck
    by leafing thru the pile.  I know of several instances where people
    have gotten the wrong check/stub and have opened it up.  It happened
    to me. How is it handled in your groups?
    
    dr

	re .41, about how paychecks are distributed:

	I feel that paychecks/stubs ought to be handed to individuals,
	and never left anywhere unlocked.  My group doesn't quite meet
	this standard, but we're not as careless as yours.  Good luck.

	Regards, Robert.

    RE: Leaking information about salaries...
    
    I don't know how many times I have seen people put their stubs in
    the back of a notebook they were using when they got their check
    that day...  Then leave that notebook out somewhere...  anyone can
    have access to that information if they wanted to look.
    
    How many of you have people coming in to clean up your house?...
    Do you leave your paycheck stubs lying on the counter?.. On a dresser?
    (get the idea?)...  You may think you may not have leaked the
    information, but you have in a covert way.
    
    Re: Releasing salary information...
    
    If its such a crime at DEC to do so, why do they publish the VEEP's
    salaries?...  I have seen them published, and wondered why they
    did that...
    
    Gale

    > ...why do they publish the VEEPs salaries
    
    I'm not an expert, but would guess it's due to DEC being a publicly
    owned corporation and they being officers

RE: < What to offer to compete with us >
    
    I don't know about rest of you, but my boss always tells me that
    my salary is normally based on what the industry standard is for
    the type of job that I do.
    
    So Digital really *needs* to know what kind of salary outside personnel
    types are offering but but at the same time letting the outside
    personnel types know what we give is strictly forbidden. 
    
- Vikas

    Re: .41, .42.
    
    I remember when I was at Syracuse University the pay stubs 
    were handed to the individual personally.  I once asked and
    why they can't leave it in the mail box and save some of 
    their time and work.  They told me it was illegal to do that.
    Pay stubs had to be handed to the individual personally.  
    That was New York State, isn't there a similar law in 
    Massachussetts State?
    
    Re. .43.
    
    Because it's the LAW.

    clarifying my comment in .28:

>    I also believe that one's job code is personnel confidential too,
>    except on a need to know basis.  And there's about a 40% salary
>    range within each job code.  (This to prevent "leveling" -- the
>    practice of refusing to deal as a peer with someone of a lower job
>    level.  Its avoidance is one of Digital's nice practices.)

    Yes, I did mean "title", as well as job code.  Thus it is not cricket
    to ask someone if they're, say, a Senior Manager A Info Systems
    (Level 12) or a Manager C Info Systems (Level 8).  Or if someone
    is a Principal Engineer or an Engineeer II.  Maybe the field makes
    some exceptions, but I, for one, rarely disclose my "official" job
    title, on principle.
         fred (Senior Corporate Guru A, or is it Minor Functionary C?)

    For good or ill, my job title is part of the job.
    
    I'm a consulting engineer. There are several levels of those. The
    people who hold that title have some responsibilities that specifically
    go with the title. Such as, if somebody writes a paper and wants it
    published outside of DEC, then a consulting engineer in another
    department is supposed to read it (to make sure the company secrets
    aren't being given away, among other reasons). Therefore, there is a
    list of consulting engineers available. Another reason: when it comes
    time for somebody to get promoted to consulting engineer, they have to
    get a letter of recommendation from another consulting engineer.
    Without knowing who they are, it's a bit hard to find one to write the
    letter. 
    
    The "corporate consulting engineers", all 10 or so of them, appear in
    the Digital Annual Report for all the world to see. 

    I think all this arcana is absolute nonsense.  I always have.  I
    don't think anyone has the right to divulge what is currently
    considered confidential information about me except me, but I can't
    even do that without risk.  As a contractor, I'm not supposed to
    divulge my earnings to anybody in the world.  My supervisor is not
    supposed to divulge to me the total billing (lest I discover the
    agency fee.)  My supervisor, in theory, and possibly the appropriate
    purchasing person, know both figures.
    
    I've worked in the public sector where everyone's pay was public
    information and it's helpful for comparisons.  The only reason to
    keep the information secret is to keep people from getting upset.
    If there's reason for people getting upset (in other words, if there
    is no good and reasonable explanation for the discrepancies that
    people get upset about) maybe you DESERVE to have people get upset!
    
    I have it on reasonable innuendo that I make more salary than my
    "peers" who are permanent employees.  Then again, I have no insurance,
    no tuition benefits, no sick leave, no vacation, no access to free
    health club facilities, no job security, no pension, no stock plan,
    etc.  I think we come out fairly even, although a lot of people
    seem to disregard the benefits as something important.
    
    It makes me crazy that I can't find a way to evaluate how my very
    transferrable job skills might be used in some other permanent job
    in the company of similar pay.  There are jobs I'd qualify for that
    I'd take a pay cut (with benefits, of course) to get "in", and some
    I'd want more money for because I'm not as interested in the work.
    If I can do the jobs, those factors should be available to me to
    help me decide what direction to go in.  I work for the money --
    if I were independently wealthy I'd do something more fun than hang
    around a major computer corporation!  Money isn't the only thing,
    but it is an important thing, and it fries me that you have to get
    to a job offer to find out whether you can even consider that job
    or not.
    
    Paranoia!  What earthly use is knowing what somebody else earns except
    for my own career planning?  I sincerely doubt that knowing you
    make $20K will make me work less professionally with you than if
    you earn $90K.  (If you do earn $90K+ give me a call...I'm free
    this weekend!) ;^)  I think there are a lot of people out there
    who are afraid somebody's going to realize they are grossly overpaid!
    If you're worth the money you get, why worry who knows?
    
    Sherry

    re: .49--``    if I were independently wealthy I'd do something more
    fun than hang around a major computer corporation!''  I can't imagine
    anything more fun than hanging around a major computer corporation.
    Some of the most intelligent people in the world are working day and
    night to build toys for me to play with.
    
    ``(If you do earn $90K+ give me a call...I'm free this weekend!) ;^)''
    What's your telephone number?  (Please send mail, don't post it here
    for all the VPs to read.)
        John Sauter

    re .49
    Well, if *I* were independently wealthy, I'd be off doing free-lance
    wildlife photography!  Very unlikely, though, so I do it on my vacation
    time (when I can afford to).
    
    I've sort of given up discussing salary issues with other people in the
    same profession.  It usually turns out to be an embarrassing
    conversation and just makes people uncomfortable.  I guess that is why
    in the US at least most people are brought up to consider the
    information confidential.  I was talking to several other software and
    hardware engineering types.  I am a principal engineer; all but one of
    the others were senior engineers, and all of the others were men.  All
    but one of them made 10-20% more than I do (which embarrassed me, and
    caused them to ask me why I am worth so little to DEC!  *Sheesh!*). 
    However, one of the men (also a DECcie) makes $10K *less* than I do (he
    is a senior engineer).  That made the group of friends even more
    uncomfortable (I guess we are still all used to women making less than
    men at the same jobs, or even when the women are in higher-level
    jobs!).  Anyhow, the whole conversation made everyone very
    uncomfortable, and the subject was quickly dropped as being too
    depressing.                     

    
    Re: .51
    
    	If the concept of equal pay for equal performance were carried
    out more thoroughly it would not be necessary to keep salaries secret
    and you and your collegues would not have been so uncomfortable
    discussing it among yourselves.
    
    Let's face it...keeping salaries secret allows unjust salaries to
    creep in without anybody getting excited. How many people would
    literally come unglued if they found out that the "dead wood" they
    work with every day makes more than they do?
    
    							Warren
    

     I've worked at places were everyone knew what everyone else made.
     It was the first think we talked about after every review. Never
     was a problem. Everyone knew what everyone was worth and what they
     got paid. If management had ever been questioned they could explain
     and justify everyones pay rate.

     It was an adjustment coming to DEC were it's a capital crime to tell
     someone what you make. Still it is the rule and I can live with it.
     It does make me wonder though about how interested DEC is in paying
     for performance. But if I was here just for the money I wouldn't be    
     here.

                   Alfred

	What you are paid is your buisness and yours alone.  If you don't 
wish to discuss it DON'T.  I feel that no matter how you perceive your pay 
it is very easy for sub-consicous factors to effect you when you discuss 
it.  ie. I get embarrassed talking about it even though I am quite 
satisfied with my pay (must be something Mom did :^)
	It will always be necessary to keep salaries secret just as reviews
are kept secret.  Your salary (in DEC) is a direct comment on your job and your 
performance in that job.  There will always be people who for one reason or 
another think that they deserve to be paid more than some one else or that 
another person should be paid less.  We at DIGITAL are each paid according 
to how others in the same job pool are paid.  DEC participates in surveys 
which reveal salary ranges about generic job classifications.  The ranges 
also take into account the companies relative need now and the forseeable 
future.  We are not paid according to how DEC performs.  If you want to 
profit from DEC's profit BUY STOCK.  The only other way to increase your 
pay without changing anything else is to shrink the job pool (knock off a 
few thousand people and watch salaries go up :^)

Sorry this semi-sounds like a FLAME.

Jilly

    re: .54,
    
     That all sounds fine in theory, but as my years pass at DEC and
    various locations in the country, it just doesn't work that way.
    Most often, and I'm talking D.L. here, your wages are based on what
    they think they can get away with paying you. Have some long time
    employees here (ASO) who could quit today and make as much or more
    at Mcdonalds! And it's not quite the big secret that mangelment would
    like it to be, seeing as my complete area has discovered that we
    *ALL* got right around $.50 raises. So much for "pay for performance".
    
    Bob

	Only slightly off this subject - NOVA last night was about the role
    of women in the work force during WWII.  One very easily reached 
    conclusion was that concealed salaries allowed businesses to take 
    advantage of social injustices to reduce their labor costs.

Nit:

It wasn't Nova, it was "The American Experience"

Nova was about Hurricanes


-bill

Double nit-

Nova was about tornadoes, not hurricanes. Big difference.

Lee

re
>    									we
>    *ALL* got right around $.50 raises. So much for "pay for performance".


	It is not the actual dollar amount of a raise that is looked at but 
what % raise it was.  I could see where everyone in a department got the 
same $ raise and yet their % raise would be inline with their performance.

	It's really too bad some managers can't get pay for performance 
clearly explained to one and all.  It really helps to forget about $ signs 
and concentrate on % signs when you get your next raise.

Jilly

    re; .59,
    
     I understand perfectly the difference between % and $, I've take
    that into account. The real inequities that I see in this (and I'm
    only going by what I've seen personaly) are the two people who started
    work the same day, same pay, one bust's buns and one just looks
    good. Guess which gets more. And it's a BIG %. I've seen it over
    and over. Pay for performance, at least on the floor, is garbage.
    Sorry for the tangent.
    
    Bob

    Re: .60
    
    That's exactly what I was referring to in .52.
    
    							Warren
    

I've experienced PAY-FOR-PERFORMANCE and PAY-FOR-ASS-KISSING. When I
started working for DEC, I was paid a good salary based on my education
and background. I then had an excellent boss who told me about the
PAY-FOR-PERFORMANCE. I worked my butt off and saw handsome rewards, and
moved through three levels in three years.

Then I moved internationally, moved up to a manager level and was also told 
that PAY-FOR-PERFORMANCE was applicable at the new site. Surprise, Surprise,
Surprise. Guess who got a new boss, who did not believe in PAY-FOR-PERFORMANCE
but instead believes in a different PAY-scheme. We clashed on various views and
I got stuck with a MINISCULE raise, despite the fact that I had worked 
sometimes up to 16 hours a day.

A competitor actually called and offered me a substantial raise, if I would
join them. I turnded them down because I don't like their corporate attitude.
But I did tell this to my manager at the salary review and he said that
they could only offer me a large salary as they were PAYING for my Digital
experience. I asked him then, if he did not think DIGITAL should also be
paying for my experience. You should have seen his expression.

    RE:.59
    I have always had a problem when people talk about what a great
    percentage increase was given out for a review. If I make $10k per
    year and get a 50% raise, I get $5000. If I make $50k per
    year and get a 10% raise, it is still $5000.  When I go to buy a
    car/house, the bank does not care that I got a 50% increase, they
    want to know how much money I have.  Therefore, $ are the only thing
    that can be talked about!!
    
    P.S. I once worked for a company that thought only in percentages.
    I left because they could not give me an increase to $14k because
    it would be too big a %.  So they had to replace me with a person
    who made $18k.  Penny wise and pound foolish.

Re .62 and probably some others:

I can't make any judgment about your case, since I don't know any of
th parties or circumstances involved. I'm sure, though, that there
are a number of bad managers who don't reward good work; and if that's
the case with you, you have my sympathies, and my wishes for good luck.

Now, having said that... the pay pattern that you describe sounds like
a very typical one in most careers, whether inside or outside DEC. That
is, pay raises tend to be bigger (in %, sometimes also in $) and more 
frequent in the early years, then the rising curve levels off and
almost flattens out. There are several reasons for this. One is that
the incremental value of each year of experience is usually greater
in the first 1-3 years; for example, your increase in "value" to DEC
is greater from year 1 to 2 than from, say, year 10 to 11.  This
leveling off trend also serves to help feed the cycle: to allow enough
money to give the "young stars" big raises, management usually trims
the percentages for more senior people. Finally, management probably 
figures that DEC *is* "paying for your experience" in the form of
non-salary benefits: pension vesting and accumulations, vacation
accrual, and usually better project assignments. (And since "young stars" 
with 0-2 years experience usually don't have or care about these latter 
things, management offers bigger raises to discourage job-hopping.)

And competitors may indeed offer experienced people more money to make
a job switch. But then you may discover that you're not only starting
at the bottom again in terms of pension and vacation, but you may not
get a raise for a long time, or may get a measly one ("because we offered
you a lot more than our own employees were making, and now we have to
take care of them").

    Why should "Salaries" be confidential ?
    
    	The only reason management would want them "Confidential" is
    to keep Everyone in the dark. Being the dedicated employee I am
    it would piss me off if I found out a low life,do nothing,slime
    ball, employee was making the same amount or more as I. Without
    there "being" somewhat open discussions among employees how do U 
    really know where U stand ? If all of U sat down and discussed
    your salaries this Conference would really open some eyes .
    
    
    
    FWIW

Re: < Note 638.65 by NEWVAX::FS9WA "FS9WA Downtown D.C. FS" >

Could you please provide your real name when using a 'generic' account?

Thanks-

Lee Roth

       RE: .65
       
       	Really now, this coming from someone with a generic account and
       	who doesn't sign their name.. Right, I'll tell you my salary..
       	{sarcasm}
       
       						mike

Re: some note way back ...

I worked for that certain computer company in Armonk. Disclosing salaries
was grounds for termination of employment.

The company carried it a bit too far though -- when it was time to 
find out my pay raise my manager would hand me a scrap of paper roughly
the size of a matchbook. Scribbled into the corner in pencil was the
increase. There was no other marking on that paper -- nothing that could
have associated it with me or the IBM corporation. And  never saw anything
official with the pay increase.

Paychecks were always handed out by management and no one else.

I and my fellow engineers always felt that salaries were kept secret to
allow management to play games. Their favorite game was to bring in new
hires with equivalent experience at higher salaries than employees who had
been there for two or three years. 

At the risk of losing our jobs, we began to share our salaries with others
in an attempt to track how fair the management was and keep them somewhat
honest. Management knew that we knew but they couldn't prove it. So as to
avoid an insurrection, it seemed that they became very careful in keeping
equal folks roughly equal. They also gave more pep talks and reminded folks
that salary was confidential. 

Finally, one day I got sick of playing their games and played one of
my own -- I walked into my manager's office with an offer of employment
from Digital and asked him if he cared to match it!

- Rich

    re.66 & 67
    Oops I was in our cc account and forgot when I entered the reply.
    Won't happen again.
    
    re.68
    It's amazing how similar our feelings are. Let me tell you a little
    story. This happened about 4 years ago. To make it short I discussed
    my salary with a Support engineer. I was a T5F he a T7S. I was making
    10k more base per year then he. Needless he was pissed. Before I
     did discuss it we agreed it would go no further.. He agreed.
    
    About a week later my manager talked to me about it in his office
    and said that I had created a big problem in the support organization
    by doing so. I can imagine.....
    
    Just a word.... If your next salary increase looks pretty good...
    remember there is a slime ball in your organization that is probably
    going to get a better raise than you. Maybe not now but it WILL
    happen.....
    
    Mike T.