Conference vicki::boats

    RE .0
    
    Hi Bill.  I will repeat my suggestion here again.  Put a hitch on
    the fron bumper.  It works great.  You have the weight over the
    drive wheels for launching and recovery.
    
    I pull up to the ramp, drop the trailer from the rear hitch, turn
    the truck around, hook up and launch.  Same for recovery, and have
    no problems.
    
    Besides, a hitch is cheaper than all those tires you're gonna burn
    up.
    
    Ed

    A good, close friend of ours has a Caravan and complains about it 
    constantly. It's a great car - but not so hot as a tow vehicle. He
    recommended we get a rear-drive van like an astro or aerostar.
    
    I had advice from several friends when we brought our van. We got
    an Aerostar for the rear wheel drive. Four-wheel drive wasn't nessacary
    for the ramps we were using. Also considered the Jeep but I couldn't
    justify 4-wheel drive just for boating. The van I'll see how well
    it does.
    
    Before the van there was a two-wheel truck. It does just fine without
    four-wheel drive. I ask the guys I go out with - do you use four-wheel
    drive often? And the answer is very, very rarily, or only on
    un-improved ramps. 
    
    Will see what the summer brings ...
    
    frank flonnoy

    
    
    To repeat what I said in file;n-1...
    
    
    	I tow my Nautique (3400lbs) with a 1986 Jeep Comanche, 2.8l,
    5 speed and have made it a habit to use 4L whenever I pull the boat
    out. This is mainly for the low gearing and also to save my clutch.
    
    	The Jeep tows the boat without any problem, my only complaint
    which is lack-of-extra-power is easily resolved by driving ahead
    and planning for the hills by rolling down the previous one.
    
    		No problem ranges:
    
    			4th gear	-	45-60
    			5th gear	-	60 plus
    
    Rick

    I can say I have the same results as -1 (.3??) but I have a 16'
    fish 'n ski with a 88hp johnson. The trailer is an E-Z loader 
    (great trailer).
    
    I pulling the thing with a Tropper II. Before the Tropper I had
    a front wheel drive and it was a bear trying to get the boat out
    of and up a ramp if it was not concreat! 
    
    The tropper has no problems at all. Does not have a whole hell of
    a lot of power but get the job done with out much effort and you
    can't beat the price for a 4WD.
    
    BARRY

    I tow a 22' dory (3000#) with a 4wd IH, deisel motor.  I always
    use 4wd on the ramps to save the clutch.  The rig has 130,000 miles
    and is still going strong.  Same clutch, too.
    
    ken

    
    I've trailered my boat and launched at some pretty "rustic"
    launches with both 2WD and 4WD. I have to admit that 4WD is
    not a necessity, but it sure is nice. I use the low range in
    4WD just about all the time when hauling out, even on a dry
    paved launch. There's no strain, no burning tires or clutches,
    just engage the clutch and motor right on out. The low range
    is so low that speed can be slowed literally to a crawl without
    having to slip the clutch.
                
    Rick W.

    
    	Well, now that the author of .0 already HAS the Voyager we can
    only wish him the best of luck with it.  I second the bumper hitch
    suggestion, though it attracts remarks such as,  "Hey, that's cheating"
    as I out manouver people without getting a cricked neck from driving
    with my head over my shoulder, or  "Doesn't it get difficult to
    see where you're going on the highway with the boat in front ?"
    I usually tell 'em,  "It's not too bad, though the steering gets
    a bit twitchy when I go much over 65 MPH."
    
    	BTW, since ALL boat_folk are SO NICE !,  don't be shy about
    asking someone with a 4x4 for a tug up the ramp.  Most of 'em would
    MUCH rather do a favor for a stranger than see them blow a clutch,
    burn rubber, or spray sand and grit all over (and into) their boat.

    	Reg

    
    re; -1
    
    I agree. Ask for help when/if you need it. I had a terribly wonderful,
    or wonderfully terrible experience this past week end, and without
    the help of some other boaters, it would have been time to call
    the tow truck.
    
    I was launching my boat at Lake Cochichuate (sp) this week end,
    and once in the water the boat wouldn't start. After many attempts
    with battery cables, we decided to bag it.  Backed the truck down,
    and over the edge of the ramp. Stuck, real good. I could not pull
    the trailer back over the ramp. Within 5 minutes, 4 guys I'd never
    seen before had jumped into the lake, and lifted my trailer back
    onto the ramp. So, now I load the boat, once loaded, my truck could
    not pull the trailer and boat back up the ramp. the same 4 guys
    noticed me stuck again, and jumped behind the truck to help push
    me up the ramp.  I don't know who those masked men where, but they
    certainly have my gratitude.  BTW, this is my first boat, and that
    was my fifth launch.
    
    Ray

        Well, now that we've established that a Voyager/Caravan
        isn't the best choice for a tow vehicle (sorry about
        that Bill), does anyone have experience with either of
        the other mini-vans (Aeorstar, Astro)?  I would like to
        get a van, but if they don't work that well, I'll probably
        go with the Jeep Cherokee.  Keep in mind that I frequently
        pull the boat back and forth over the Rocky Mountain passes.
        
        /wayne

    ASTRO.....
    I use my wife's Astro to pull a 18' Ranger bass boat ( ~3000# )
    when I'm not using my K-5 Blazer.It's no problem.  
    I did look ahead prior to buying it and got one
    with 3:42 gears and oil and transmission coolers.  One option I
    would suggest and that's get the widest tires you can ( wide tires
    = more traction ).  Also I got a 2" receiver hitch from Sears 
    that allowed me to keep the spare in its original position. 
    
    

One time I decided I should go launch my boat by myself, just
to see if I could.  It was my 2nd time backing down a ramp and
I didn't have a problem with that.  Pulling the boat out however,
was another story.

I put the trailor in the water too deep, the boat slid
very nicely up to the winch, too nicely in fact.  It was
kind of windy that evening also.  I pulled the boat out
of the water and looked out my rearview mirror just in time
to see the boat fall off the trailor and onto the pavement.
The boat was brand new also.

So I get out of my car and this guy next to me who was pulling
his boat out alone says "Whoops!"....which was hysterically funny
to me at the time due to the shock factor.  Anyways, Boston Whalers
are so light he was able to hold the boat up while I backed it
down into the water again.  

Needless to say, it was a very humbling experience, and only
now can I admit that I ever did something that stupid.  I guess the 
moral of the story is don't put your trailor in too deep on a
windy day because the boat will definately slide off when
you are not looking!  

Jeanne

    I have an '87 Aerostar XLT with V-6, and Towing Package that I use
    to pull a 3000 lb two-wheel rig (19' Chapparal/Calkins combo) and
    it works great. In the Aerostar, the towing harness is a seperate
    unit from the van wiring (goodness), but the relays are junk and
    have failed once. I have had NO problems getting out of ramps with
    the rig on, but most in UNY are in good shape. Gas consumption is
    16/17 mpg with the rig on and about 23 without. There is a "Dropped
    Hitch" available that lets you keep the spare under the van. So
    far, no complaints and I went from a Chevy 3/4 ton van with a 352
    V-8 to the Ford.
    
    Question---does anyone know of a commercially available front hitch
    for an Aerostar? It would really make life great!!!
    
    Don

    
    
    
    I tow my 1987 Larson (about 2,000 lb including the trailer) with
    my 1986 Ford Aerostar van. It has a 3.0 l V-6 with a 5 speed manual
    transmission. It does not have a tow package, therefore is only
    rated at towing about 2,000 lb. I have had *no* problems on ramps....
    and I have been on some bad ones (dirt, stone, tar.....). On the
    highway it has been just fine....however I have had an oil consumption
    problem that I, so far, have not been able to solve. I think it
    may related to towing but haven't proved it yet. The dealer says
    a quart every 750 miles is acceptable to Ford Motor.....well not
    to me. I will replace this van with an '88 in the late summer. This
    time I will have it equipted with the tow package and automatic
    transmission. I talked to Frank (note 2.18) who has an '88 Aerostar
    and is very happy with it. So I would not be afraid to go for a
    
    

    
    
    
    another. (Continuation of 7.13)

    I have also noticed a "slight" oil consumption problem with my '87
    Aerostar when towing, but not a big deal (never measured usage).
    I have the towing package and 4 speed auto with 3 L V-6. If you
    find out anything from Ford, please pass it on.
    
    Don

    
    There is a note in the GENRAL::4WD (Note 127.9) that talks about
    an oil consumption problem in the trucks.  I do not know if it
    applies to your case but I thoght I would pass on the info 
    anyway.   Ford really does believe that 1 quart every 750-900
    miles is acceptable.  At that rate you would never have to
    change it, just keep adding new stuff, what a nice feature. :-)
    
    /Mike Smith
    

    RE: .11
    
>>  I put the trailor in the water too deep, the boat slid
>>  very nicely up to the winch, too nicely in fact.  It was
>>  kind of windy that evening also.  I pulled the boat out
>>  of the water and looked out my rearview mirror just in time
>>  to see the boat fall off the trailor and onto the pavement.
    
    Forgive my ignorance Jeanne, but didn't you hook the boat up to
    the trailer?
    
    					...Roger...
    
    who_once_had_the_trailer_hook_break_while_half_way_up_the_ramp

      
   > Forgive my ignorance Jeanne, but didn't you hook the boat up to
   > the trailer?
    
    					...Roger...
    
 Yes, I did Roger, if I didn't hook it up I would have been better off,
the boat would have stayed in the water when I pulled the trailer out.
Thats' how deep I put the trailer in.  (No-one ever warned me about
this....or about ventilation screws on the gas tank, but thats another
story)

The boat came out of the water sitting crookedly on the trailer (whalers
can do that due to their hull design - which are shaped like a W).  The boat
tipped off the trailer, half on the trailer, half on the pavement.

Now when I put the trailer in, I submerge only the lower end of the
trailer so the boat can't shift around once its on.

    jd/

    Someone suggested to me that one solution to my light front end
    problem is to only two thirds load the boat.  IE, get it on the
    trailer enough so it won't fall off, but not the whole way so that
    all the weight is on the hitch.  I would think that point would
    be carefully come upon, so other than the safety risk, does it make
    sense?  Has anyone tried it?  (now that spring has come back, I'll
    give it a shot next trip out)
    
    bill

    Re -1>
    	I would not recommend having a boat hanging off the trailer
    to adjust the tongue weight. The transom must have adequate support.
    On most trailers you can move the whole axle to adjust the weight.
    I think that this would be a better solution
    Paul

    Yes I have done that but agree with Re.-1 not to.
    
    When I had a front whell drive the boat on two different occasion
    was stuck in the water (on the trailer) because the front wheels
    would just spin. What I end up doing was taking the boat back off
    the trailer half wahy and dring the car up on the ramp to the point
    were I could put the boat back on and drive away. I was very uneasy
    about this. The bow of the boat is way up in the air and I had to
    have my wife get on the point so the combined weight whould bring
    it down. I would not do this unless an emergency took place. With
    me, that was the only way.
    
    After a person told me a little trick (or did I read it in this
    notes fie?, I must be gettin old at 32 :-)  ).
    
    When your bringing your boat up the ramp with a front whell drive
    and the front wheels start to spin, have one or two people sit on
    the hood for added traction. They spin because the weight of the
    boat is taking some weight off the front and 'lifts them up a bit'
    so to speak. The added weight of a couple of people will let the
    tires bit the ground and carry the boat up. 
    
    I have not tried this now that I have a 4WD, but would like to hear
    from others if they try this or have tried it.
    
    barry

    
    
    RE: -1
    
    	I'd like to see those two people sit on the hood of a 
    Caravan/Voyager!

        RE: .19
        
        Bill, someone told me that it is possible to put on a 
        load equalizer hitch that distributes some of the weight
        to the front.  I don't know much about it other than he
        says he has seen them in use.  You might check with a
        hitch dealer to see what is available.
        
        /wayne

    Having recently spent about an hour trying to get a boat and front
    wheel drive car out of a sand launching ramp, I decided to throw
    a "come-along" in the trunk for next time.
    
    A "come-along" is a lever operated cable winch.  It has about 20'
    of cable, and (usually) a 2000 pound capacity.  The plan is to park
    the car at the top of the ramp, hook the come-along to the hitch,
    run the cable (and a rope, if necessary) to the boat trailer, and
    then crank the rig up the ramp.
    
    Should work, but I hope I don't actually need it.  Anyone ever tried
    this stunt?

    Re: .24
    
    I have heard of people trying this but I have never tried it myself.
    
    The only problems I see with it are the time it takes to winch the
    trailer up the ramp (this MAY be less then the time to tow the car
    out).  If you don't have a wheel on the front of the trailer you
    will have to have a way to keep the hitch in the air and if you
    do have a wheel you will have to make sure it does not pow into
    a sandy ramp.  And finally the last and probably the most dangerous
    problem ,and most unlikely if you are careful,  is the funny way
    that a steel cable or heavy rope becomes very much like a 
    rubberband when it snaps back after breaking or releasing under
    a large strain.  I would feel very uneasy standing at the end
    of the come-along as I pulled a 2000lb load up a ramp.
    
    I think that instead of the come-along, just tie a "heavy" rope
    to the trailer and to the car hitch and pull it out.  This way
    there is no tongue weight and you can keep the car up on the
    dry part of the ramp.  But only do this if a last resort.
    
    Mike Smith
    

    Two points to share...comments welcome!
    
    1. Re: Boats sliding sideways off trailer on windy days:  After
    going thru that once I went to a muffler shop and had them bend
    a pair of right angle pipes.  I clamped one, on each side of the 
    rear crossmember
    of the trailer giving a cheap ($20) set of "U" brackets to keep
    the stern centered on the trailer..worked like a charm.
                      
    2. Re: A comealong for winching a trailer up a ramp:  In a real
    jam you can load the boat onto the trailer then use the trailer
    winch..connecting the cable to the tow car parked up-ramp.  The
    cautions about cables snapping are real..they can do alot of damage
    when they let go.  But, when there are almost no alternatives.....
    
    Tow vehicles:  I bought a old (mid 70's) Jeep wagoneer...Full Size,
    360 V-8, Auto, Full time 4WD.  I think I could trailer the Queen
    Mary with minimal problems :-)   The big drawback is MPG...the boat
    does better!  But then everything has its price.

	Front-wheel drive vehicle's are *NOT* designed for pulling boats.
Its like trying to mow your lawn with a cykle, it can be done but I would
not do it.  If you spend $$$$$$$$ on a boat that weights moe that 1500 lbs
and that is longer and 16ft, you really ought to consider the "whole" picture
CAR-(Brakes, cooling, highway speed, transmission, etc), TRAILER-(correctly
balanced, spare tire/berrings, rollers, winch, lighting, running boards).

	Spending big $$$$$ on a boat and towing it with a ESCORT is not the
answer.  The small, economical, front-wheel vehicles are designed to be
inexpensive to own/operate, **NOT** to tow heavy objects or launch boats.
Launching a boat is like pulling tree stumps.   Just because a vehicle
CAN pull 2000 lbs under ideal conditions, doesnt mean you want to bet your
$$$ rig on it.  Requirements for pulling sizeable rigs in order to avoid most
of the common problemsa is:

	* rear wheel drive (if boat over 1500lbs and 16ft long)
	* large V6 or small V8 (for torque)
	* 4WD for ramps > 6-7 degrees or non-paved swamps!
	* Oil and tranny coolers for those who trailer alot
	* H.D. brakes, clutch, Auto trans.
	* H.D. suspension (factory option)
	* factory towing package
	* no gimmicks (air shocks, load levelers, etc)

	Again you get what you pay for.  If you want 30-50MPG in you vehicle
dont expect it to last long trailering or launch/retrieve/stop a boat on a 
steep, gravel, or slipery ramp.

	A friend of towed his 18' with his CARAVAN once!  The brakes faded
many times, highway speed was 40mph (for 5 hours), *IF* he had to stop suddenly
(kid in street) he could NOT have, the motor overheated, his family ended up
riding with us to lighten the load, the boat almost launched the van!, and I
had to tow him out in order to retrieve the van and the boat.  He bought a
used 4x4 for $3K the next week.  Dont byte off more that you can launch SAFELY!


							The Baer

    RE: .21
    
    Yup, I've done this quite often with my 2.8L Citation front wheel
    drive...it works for the most part, but I still spin 'em.  Our ramp
    is concrete for about 25 feet then turns to dirt/sand right at the
    top...what a pain for front wheel drive cars.  Plus my Citation
    is getting tired (149K miles) and is no longer enthusiastic about
    my hanging 2K lbs. off the bumper.  Time to start looking for a
    new one (oh yeah, a tow vehicle too!).  :-)
    
    					...Roger...

    re 	floating the boat off the trailer at windy ramps.
    
    	I found that its a good plan to make mental notes when LAUNCHING
    the boat.  Usually I'll go into the water until its just up to the
    lower edge of the trailer's wheel rim, if the boat hasn't flattened
    out a bit (started to float off) then its obviously a fairly shallow
    ramp, so I go in up to the hub centres, that usually does it but
    I've taken the car wheels in a couple of times.
    
    	The most extreme recovery I had to make was in very strong on_shore
    winds, fortunately to a shallow sandy beach, but they were shifting
    winds so there was no real "windward" for more than a few seconds
    at a time.  Basically I beached the boat as far as I could, fetched
    the trailer and backed it right to the beached boat.  I attached
    the cable and took up the slack, i.e. pulled the vee into the loading
    rollers.  Then backed up to push the boat out a foot or so, cranked
    up again, etc.  This kept the boat centred as I wound it up, I would
    have lost it for sure if I'd attempted a normal recovery.  This
    would work much better with a team of two, especially using a front
    hitch since eye contact always helps when using hand signals.  BTW,
    this takes a lot more effort than usual since there is no free float
    on, the boat actually gets pulled up onto the trailer via real work,
    as in swet.  Of course a front hitch and remote electric winch would
    be NICE, it would make it a single person operation and a serious
    4WD'er would have that anyway, but who wants to go boating alone
    anyway ?:-^)
    
    	Reg
    

    Just a note... having two people standing on the bumper of the voyager
    REALLY helps pulling the boat out of the water.  At a very steep
    ramp, I had about 300 lbs of people on the bumper, and the wheels
    didn't slip an inch!  Guess I'll have to install some handles up
    there to make their job easier and take the wear/tear off the wipers.
    
    bill

    What do you folks think of the so-called 'Step & Tow Bumpers' that
    are usually a factory option on the GMC and Chevy pick-ups?
    The specs indicate that you can tow 4000 lbs. right off the bumper.
    I believe that this bumper distributes the towed weight to the frame
    by design. I'm lookin' at towing ~3900 lbs. (boat,motor, & trailer
    combined) w/ my Dads Chevy 1/2 ton Pick-Up. Six cyc. auto trans.
    The extent of the tow will be within 5 miles of my house to the
    town boat ramp. This gets me out to the mouth of the Merrimack River
    (Mass.) where I'll INITIALLY be doing ALL my boating. 
    I believe this distance frequently will be of no problem. But to
    travel any get distances might put a strain on the engine over time.
    Comments Please-
    MArk      

    re .31	I'd guess the weak point is the automatic trannie, you
    didn't say if it is 2 or 4 WD, if 2 then you won't have 4L, so coming
    up the ramp will be quite a strain unless you have a creeper gear.
    Be nice to your dad, as follows  a) Buy him an auxiliarly trannie
    oil cooler, if he doesn't already have one.  b) Change his trannie
    fluid and filter for him every year.  This is a small price to pay
    for the use of his truck, but blowing his trannie would be REAL
    EXPENSIVE on your relationship, even if you DO pay for it.
    
    	Reg
    

    How about this: A 1980 Toyota Celica 5 speed with RWD/2 liter engine.
    I only have a 14ft. boat. I get looks at the ramp but never spin,
    just let out the clutch and drive on up.
    
    Nelson

    Re -1:
    
    I got ya beat, a 1985 Toyota SR5 4 cycl.....what a towing machine!
    

Re -1:
    
    This is a four cylinder with 140k miles on it!
    

    
    See the May issue of Trailer Boats. They have listed the 6 best
    tow vehicles of 1988, also information on tow vehicles for the past
    10 years. Currently at the top of the list is GMC's Jimmy with the
    4.3 L V-6 engine, tow weight is 3500-5000. If any one wishes a copy
    send me mail.
    
    	Mike

    Alot of us can 'just' afford the luxury of owning a boat...never mind
    buying a special towing machine that handles the job effortlessly. The 1/2
    ton truck was a gift from my dad. I own it! I just wondered if I'd be a
    joke at the ramp trying to yank it out in front of the rest of the
    boating community. Also I heard that an AUTOMATIC transmission was
    perferred over a manual for towing (as spelled out in the latest
    GMC pamphlet on towing). It says that the automatics (1st gear)are geared
    lower the the manual transmissions. Comments?
       
    MArk

    I have an automatic full size 4x4 blazer and have no problem
    pulling my boat out of a hole and it weighs close to 5000lbs. I mean
    hole as in low tide one axel of the trailer off the end up the
    ramp. Pop it in 4 high and up she comes, no pain no strain.
    I would rather have the auto, I don't want to be messing with a
    clutch as well as thinking of the other 10 million things I
    worry about putting/taking my boat in/out of the water.
    
    Bruce

    	I have a Toyota with a 5-speed manual tranny. When I used to
    pull my boat out, I would use 4wd in low range. In low range,
    top speed is about 25 mph in 5th and in 1st you can bairly get the
    speedometer to move. Even with the 4 banger there was no strain.
    I can't imagine that an automatic (even in low range) would get
    any lower than this.

    RAYJ

    Re.39 Of course it can  "get lower than this". Automatics have an
    infinite low gear!
    
    Jerry
    

    re .40	Huh ?
    
    	An automatic in 4H or 2H doesn't have an infinitely low gear,
    i.e. mine is lower yet in 4L.
    
    	Reg
    

    	Re:40
    		Not meaning to be a wise guy but it doesn't sound as
    if you have a good working knowledge of automatic transmissions.
    I too am no expert but even a CVT (constant variable transmission),
    which BTW isn't even in production yet, has a limit to whats its lowest 
    gear ratio is.
    
    	This is more of a question than a statement but I've heard that
    automatic transmissions "should" have a transmission cooler installed
    to prevent damage/extend the life of automatic transmissions used
    in tow/plow vehicles ? This, to my understanding, does not usually
    come as a stock item but does usually come on vehicles with plow/towing
    prep. 
    
    	Also, as far as I know, standard transmission do not require
    this option.
    
    	Maybe someone with a little more knowledge can elaborate ????
    
    	RAYJ

    Re .41 & .42
    
    This is really a practical definition problem. If with my automatic
    I am not moving, but still in gear the torque converter is acting
    very much like the clutch on a standard transmission when it is
    disengaged. As I apply power the torque converter acts very much
    like the standard clutch when it is slipping. The main practical
    difference is that I don't need to be concerned with manual control
    of the slippage.....it is automatic. The net effect, as observed
    by the driver is an infinite gear ratio, i.e. motor goes fast while
    wheels don't move, while vehicle doesn't move, it just climbs up
    the power curve until I either move or spin the wheels. Surely
    we can agree that as RPMs go up and down along with driving force
    that there are an infinite number of data pairs of torque and vehicle
    motion.
    
    In any case, I like it,
    Jerry
    

    RE: Gear ratio (.41,.42 and .43)
    
    Yes, it is a definition problem!
    An automatic might be said to have an infinite number of ratios but
    that's not the same as an infinite ratio!
    In my defenition GEAR RATIO means a rpm step-up or -down with the
    corresponding torque step-down or -up.
    Slippage is not something that has to do with gear ratios.
    
    Gears in cars are not just there to let the engine work within an
    acceptable rpm band, they are there to give enough torque on the
    wheels to pull the car up gradients etc.
    With a steep enough grade or heavy enough load the car would not
    be able get ahead in top gear however much you slipped the clutch,
    the necessary torque just isn't there!
    
    If I remember correctly a typical torque converter gives a torque
    multiplication varying from roughly 1 to 2 depending on the rpm 
    difference between the incoming and outgoing shafts. 
    The maximum (2) is reached when the output shaft is not rotating.
    From that it easy to calculate the total torque multiplication ratio
    when starting to pull a boat up the slipway: Bottom gear mechanical
    ratio times 2! 
    A further advantage with an automatic is that due to the slippage it
    is possible to run the engine at a rpm closer to max torque than it 
    is with a manual clutch. (In theory you could do it with a clutch too 
    but you would soon be without clutch!)
    
    Ok, best to stop this technical/theroetical stuff before I start
    slipping into infinite talking ratio!
     
    For me it's an automatic any time. Just because the ease of use!
    
	-jcl
    

    We are all agreed!
    Assume automatic, in gear, no vehicle motion and no spinning
    wheels.....
    
    500 Eng. RPM / 0 Wheel RPM = infinite
     .
     .
     n
    1000 Eng. RPM / 0 Wheel RPM = infinite
     .
     .
     n
    1500 Eng. RPM / 0 Wheel RPM = infinite
     .
     .
     n
     .
     .
     .
    
    for whatever n you choose.
    
    Jerry
    

    re .45	Nah, I don't agree....  in fact your example makes me
    disagree.
    
    	There is a stall RPM test for automatic transmissions.  Typically
    if you put it in drive, stand on the brakes and stand on the gas
    the engine will be load limited at about 2500 - 2600 RPM, don't
    do this for more than 5 seconds or things may start to burn.
    
    	If we move to an experiment involving a car, boat and trailer
    (how novel ?) on a steep ramp (don't let me get too abstract here)
    it is possible that stall RPM will be reached while trying to climb
    the ramp.  This would match your example perfectly, a very large
    number of velocity ratios each equating to infinity due to the divide
    by zero, so what ?

    	So, the torque ratio is varying, thats what.  Thats why the
    situation won't happen until a steeper ramp or heavier load situation
    if there is a transfer case with a low range or creeper gear behind
    the auto transmission.  
    
    	Reg
    
    	Oh,  Q.E.D. & all that stuff...
    

    re:45
    	I don't agree either. The bottom line is it doesn't matter because
    this whole issue is around what's better for towing and this probably
    comes down to personel preference. Although the manufacturer may
    recommend the auto over the manual, I tend to believe that part
    of this is because of the added cost to the vehicle (i.e. more profit) 
    rather than any "significant mechanical" advantage. More aptly put,
    it depends on whether or not you choose to pay for the "ease of
    use" factor in having an automatic.
    
    	I happened to come across an article on tow rigs while checking
    for something else in a Boating magazine. On their ideal towing
    rig, the tow vehicle was said to be equipped with an automatic w/manual
    overdrive lockout, (no mention of infinite low gear option :-), a 
    "heavier" duty transmission oil cooler, AND an engine oil cooler. It
    unfortunately did not break down the cost of these OPTIONS. It did
    break down some options but this still left about $6000 difference
    between the base price + the known cost options vs. the total cost
    of the vehicle. The automatic tranny "option" itself was an additional 
    $735 plus 20% of the $6000 (probably conservative) = a few clutch
    changes. Assuming about 100000 miles per clutch, this in my opinion
    is consideraby cheaper, but what the heck, it's only money :-)
    
    	RAYJ

    Does anyone know what happens if you are rear-ended with a trailer
    hitch (not pulling anything)?  Can this do serious damage to the
    car's frame?  I have a nice new car I'm thinking of putting a hitch
    on, but I would only use it occasionally to tow my sailboat.  If
    this is going to make my car more vulnerable, I may not do it.

    re .49	Probably ADDS protection, but of course it depends.
    A frame hitch (receiver) with the tow bracket and ball left in
    would/could do a nasty job on whoever rear ends you, it MIGHT protect
    your bumper and rear sheet metal somwhat.... if you get whacked
    in the back hard enough for the hitch to pass serious damage on
    to the frame; well, thats a pretty bad hit and I'd guess the damage
    without the hitch wouldn't be any less.
    

    Actually, I wasn't planning on any accident at all, but one never
    knows what the guy behind one might be planning.  I didn't realize
    that the hitch was just bolted on and could be removed (the people
    who will put the hitch on pointed that out to me).  So I was afraid
    it might permanently defeat the purpose of my 5-mph bumper.  

    Many years ago we were hit in the rear bending the trailer hitch
    in enough to rupture the gas tank. Happilly all it did was leak
    gas onto the road, no fire. Took a few hours to get the gas tank
    repaired. I believe almost all frame type hitches would be vulnerable
    to this. I know the hitch I now have on both my Volvo and Dodge
    Van would rather eaisly be bent into the gas tank if they were hit
    straight on. 
    
    I did have a guy hit the hitch on my last van, just as my wife was
    turning into our driveway. It sheared the hitch off without even
    scratching the bumper. Really did a job on his plastic grille parts!
    
    There is some small extra risk having a hitch sticking out, but
    not enough to stop me from the benefits of the hitch.

    
    Re: Impact-absorbing bumpers.....
    
    The hitch wasn't for a boat, but the lesson is still valid...
    About 5 years ago my Dad went to have a load-leveling hitch put
    on his car (Ford LTD, V-8, etc.).  He ordered Ford's 
    recommended hitch, and went to the shop the dealer recommended
    to have it installed.  
    
    When he picked the car up, he noticed that the hitch was 
    attached to his rear bumper.... something that had been done
    for years, up until impact-absorbing bumpers came out.  He
    asked (nicely) about it, and was (not so nicely) told to
    go talk to the Ford dealer.  He did.... they said it most
    certainly should NOT be attached to the bumper, and
    phoned the shop.  They said if my Dad would return, they
    would take care of it....
    
    Dad went back, to have it taken care of.  They took care of
    it all right - - the same (older) fella who had installed it
    took an oxy-acetylene torch and cut it off, telling Dad that
    if he didn't like the way a 20-year veteran installer did
    the work, he could (expletive deleted).  
    
    The Ford dealer replaced the hitch (torches don't treat them
    very nicely), and changed shops before it came time to install
    the new hitch.  They also checked, and yes... even without an
    impact, the "give" in an impact-absorbing bumper could well
    cause control problems, just by flexing when you braked, etc..
    
    Lessons:  1.  Don't blindly trust even the old-timers.
              2.  You don't have much choice... you HAVE TO go under
                   the gas tank on most mounts.
              3.  Dealer really DO care sometimes....
    
                                - Ed Bourgault -
    

    
    
    	I guess this belongs under the trailering note??
    
    	I have NOT measured my trailer tongue weight to see
    if it is greater than it's supposed to be, but when my trailer
    is hooked to the truck on flat ground, the trailer is tilted
    forward slightly. Are most trailers designed to travel perfectly
    level with the ground? I realize getting another hitch for my
    receiver to raise the trailer tongue would decrease the weight
    on the truck's springs. Would it have any other negative/positive
    effects?
    
    Rick

    re .54	You raise an interesting question regarding a trailer
    being level.  I've often thought that the tongue weight for a boat
    trailer should be more than the standard 10 - 15 % of total weight
    due to the aerodynamics (hydrodynamics when its wet) of the boat.
    Someone here can probably do the math, but I'd guess that at highway
    speeds the  "lift"  of a hull designed to plane on water at 25 or
    so MPH is non trivial.  I'd guess that it doesn't get cancelled
    very evenly by downthrust from windshield and topsides either. 
    How this all changes with level, vs nose down, vs nose up...... hmmm,
    I'd rather be boatin' than worryin' about it.
    
    	Reg	{mine's more or less flat, I'd guess 250lb tongue weight}
    

    	Re -2>
    		The hitch should be selected so that the trailer is
    fairly level to get a straight line pull. The tongue weight should
    be adjusted independantly of this. The 10% rule of thumb is to be
    applied with everything level and on level ground. 

    re: .-1  I agree, the trailer should be level.  If you have a
    receiver based hitch, it fairly easy to get the trailer
    level.  Ball mounts (the piece that slides into the receiver
    and holds the hitch ball) come in a range of offsets.  The
    ball mount can either be straight, or have an offset of up
    to six inches (up or down).  You just need to buy the one
    with the right offset to get the trailer level.

    At the place I bought my trailer, they let me try ball mounts
    until we found one which made the trailer level.

    	- Lee

    RE.25
    YOU GUYS MUST BE LUCKY WHERE YOU LAUNCH,LIVEING ON LAKE CHAMPLAIN
    WE ARE HURTING FOR ACESS AREAS,ON THE FEW THAT WE HAVE YOU CAN HAVE
    ANYWHERE BETWEEN 2 OR 3 HUNDRED PEOPLE TRYING TO  LAUNCH IN A TWO
    OR THREE HOUR PERIOD,IF YOU PULLED OUT YOUR WINCH AND OR A ANYTHING
    ELSE THEY WOULD MORE THAN LIKELY BOOT YOU OUT.THERE JUST NO TIME
    FOR THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MANY PEOPLE WAITING.JUST PRAY YOU 
    DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME...

    
    	I've just invented/discovered an omni-directional trailer jack
    wheel chock {please don't tell me there's no market for it, I'm
    EXCITED !}.   There have been a few occassions when I've chocked
    the trailer wheels and still had the coupler swing around at my
    leg when jacking it off the ball, never hit me but it could be nasty.
    I also made the mistake (only once) of jacking it off the ball on
    very smooth ground without chocking the trailer at all; DUMB, I
    nearly lost it.
    
    	It turns out that a stainless steel pet food dish, 24 ounce
    size, is just about perfect for holding the trailer jack wheel in
    place, doesn't dig up the yard as much either, since it has a bearing
    surface of about a 10 inch diameter disk.  I MIGHT even abandon
    the main wheel chocks (splits of firewood) now:-^)

    	Reg
    

        I pull my 24' HydraSports cuddy outboard with a full-sized Ford
        Bronco. My trailer is a Cox all-roller tandem axel with surge
        brakes and a Powr-Winch 812C electric winch. The trailer + boat
        weighs around 5000#.  I don't use equalizing hitches. My first
        Bronco had a Hercules bumper which was rated at 1200# tongue
        weight, 12000# draw weight. My new Bronco has a Draw-Tite weight
        distributing hitch rated at 500#-5000#. I presently have 190-200#
        tongue weight. This varies for a couple of reasons: gas capacity
        is 120 gallons - that's about 850 pounds if full; the boat might
        be a half inch further forward or aft on the trailer today than
        it was yesterday.
        
        I absolutely, positively would NOT trail with any vehicle
        significantly lighter or smaller than the boat/trailer rig. When
        that much mass gets moving, the tandom trailer wheels tend to
        want to go in a straight line. If your pulling vehicle is
        significantly lighter than your loaded trailer, the trailer is
        going to control the direction of travel of the pulling vehicle
        -- or try to. A bad scene!
        
        I lean toward wide conventional (street-type or car-type?) tires,
        rather than agressive off-road tires.I always switch to four
        wheel drive (low range) *on the ramp*, and I have never spun my
        wheels. Switching to 4wd gives me twice as much braking action on
        the ramp. When you start offloading the boat and decide to hit
        the winch brakes, the boat can pull the vehicle backward on the
        ramp. With two wheel drive your emergency brake locks just the
        rear tires, the front wheels roll freely. You want as much
        traction as you can get. Wedges or tire blocks help.
        
        I've been trailing this rig since 1984, and trailering boats
        since 1958. I use ramps at:
        
                Lake Winnipesaukee (Meredith public ramp)
                Lake Wentworth
                Pawtuckaway Lake
                Hampton Harbor NH 
                Newburyport MA (at the tackle shop)
                Westport Point MA
                Sakonnet Point RI 
                Sakonnet River ((Riveredge Marine under the RT 24 bridge)
                

    I plan on buying a 15' Aluminum boat and I have a few basic towing
    questions that I am sure someone out there can answer. The Boat weight is
    400lbs. Motor 103lbs.(25hp) Trailer is Shore Lander(sp?). Some
    additional info; I have a Carvan and and a 83 Subrau 4WD with about
    103K mi. If I go somewhere locally with dirt ramp I'll can use my sons
    4WD 1/2 ton pick-up some of the times. Currently thinking of replacing 
    the Subrau with a new one next year. THIS YEAR I WANT THE BOAT! 
    
    The questions are:
    	
    	1. Should I even consider using the Subrau? It is running good. 
    
    	2. I called several hitch installers, all of them say I need
           a hitch that does not attach to the bumper but to the frame
           and costs, depending on dealer $120 to $140. All dealers
           are talking a class I hitch. Does this sound like the right
           hitch for the Caravan.
     
    This will be my first boat that I trailer. I really would appreciate
    any inputs. Thanks in advance.
    
    
    Ed
                               
    

    Ed, if the Subie is running good and your not going to be hauling
    it too far - go to K-mart, get a bolt on bumper hitch and drill
    a few holes.  Then take the hundred bucks and put it aside to add to 
    your down payment for the 4x4 truck that you'll be wanting next year!
                         
    donmac (who bolted a hitch on an Escort then traded the Escort for
            4x4 truck 8^)

    I had my first real towing experience in years last weekend. I towed
    a 20' pontoon from Manchester NH to Lake Winnisquam. I estimate
    the whole rig to wiegh less than 2000 lbs (boat-1300,engine-300, 
    trailer-300). The tow vehicle was an '85 S-10 Blazer, 2 wheel drive,
    2.8 V6, auto(didn't use the o-drive). I have to say that if I had
    to tow that thing more than twice a year I'd seriously consider
    buying a new GM 4.3 V6 replacement engine. I was able to maintain
    at least 45 mph the entire trip but I spent as much time in 2nd
    as I did in 3rd. Seems to me if I had a 3000 lb rig I'd have some
    troubles making the haul up 93N. Maybe I'm expecting too much but
    there is no substitute for cubic inches. If I had the boat when
    I bought the truck I would have looked for a full size Blazer/Bronco.
    
    I'm amazed at what people will use as tow vehicles. I was really
    depressed when a Trooper II passed me towing a similar sized rig.
    
    ~jeff
    
    Oh, the rear axle ratio is a 3.42

    
    re: jeff
    
    	Are you sure your Blazer is running ok? Or maybe the top
    was up on the boat causing a great deal of wind resistance?
    
    	I've successfully towed my Nautique (3400lbs B,M&T) at highway
    speeds with a 2.8l Jeep Comanche. True I had to plan ahead for the
    hills and maybe use 4th rather than 5th, but maintaining highway
    speeds was not a problem.
    
    Rick
    
    Could there be that much difference in axle ratios and/or
    standard vs auto transission?
                   

    
    re: Jeff
    
    	Oh yeah.... in order to stay in 5th gear, I'd have to stay
    above 60 MPH..... 65 was even better.....

    Jeff,
    
    I think your pontoon boat's shape is more of a problem than its
    weight, although 2,000 lbs. is a considerable load on those poor
    GM 2.8L V6s. 
    
    I would think that the front and rear walls of the pontoon boat's
    deck would act as a huge air-brake to you. 
    
    My recommendation would be "don't try to tow it too much over 40
    MPH and you'll be better off."
    
    By the way, you've got a really interesting problem. I don't think
    I've ever heard anyone mention this unique problem before.
    
    Mike (Also a Winnisquam boat-noter)
    

    I have been pulling my 21' Rinker cuddy with an 87' Ford Aerostar
    minivan for about 2 months now.  The boat/motor/trailer weighs about
    4300#, and I have a plain Aerostar (i.e. no trailer towing package).
    Generally I am going to and from the rather steep ramp, about 5
    miles each way, and have had no problems towing or launching. However,
    I did have to get the boat home from the dealer, and this involved
    a 170 mile drive on the highway.  There was no problem in keeping
    in the 55-57 mph range, but when i tried to go 65mph the trailer
    started to take control until I slowed down. 
    I would not recommend this to anyone, but It can be done.  My Aerostar
    has had an oil burning problem since day one, and towing this oversized
    load has not increased the consumption at all.  I am only towing
    this load until fall, when I will be purchasing a full sized Chevy
    Blazer.
    
    
    							Rob

	I can relate to your experience since I had a similar problem with my 
16" skiboat on a Sterling trailer......I solved the problem by installing a set
of side rollers.  I got the idea from observing several people and their bass
boats, as they drove the boat onto the trailer(what a nice method, sure beats 
cranking).   Most good marine stores carry a variety of add-ons for trailers, 
check it out!

		Bob (I launch alone!) Hamel

    
    
    	I'm retiring my 85 toyota p/u 4cyl/4spd, and am considering
    	a new sports utility truck to tow my 20Ft BassBuggy (little under 
    	2,000 lbs.).  I like the Ford Explorer 4.0 Liter @ 155 HP or
    	the Toyota 4-Runner V6 @ 150HP.  
    
        I also looked at the new Isuzu Rodeo, nice truck, good price,
    	but the 3.1 liter V6 has only 117HP.  Not much more that my
    	present 4cyl Toyota.
    
    	The Toyota will probably be more trouble-free over 4 years
    	than the Ford.  But I like the size of the Explorer and I
    	may get a better price.  Also will look at the 2-door Mazda 
    	Navaho which is built my Ford.  I commute about 30K miles per 
    	year.
    
    	Any comments on the Ford vs Toyota would be helpful.
    
    
    	The Harbormaster

    Trailer Boats had a "showdown" between 10 current models of towing
    vehicles two months ago.  The winner (Tow vehicles of the Year) was
    announced in last months edition.  The Chevy 1/2 ton SS 454 won. Not
    really your standard family oriented tow vehicle but if you need to
    launch and recover REAL fast probably just what you need.  They covered
    all the models you mentioned except the Mazda which is really an
    Explorer with some differences.  If you can't get the magazine, I'll
    find my copy and send it to you.
    Wayne (who can't wait for our Bronco II to die so we can get an
    Explorer) Norcross

    I blew the clutch on an Isuzu Trooper trailering a 2000 lb boat.  The
    guy who fixed it (who sees very few foreign trucks) said the clutch and
    associated components were seriously underdesigned for pulling
    anything at all.
    
    The engine is important but the clutch is the weak link.  Boat
    trailering, what with dealing with ramps, is a LOT harder on the clutch
    than other kinds of load hauling.

    It's interesting to see the differences in towing capabilities between
    standard and automatic equipped vehicles which are otherwise identical.
    My Ford Ranger with standard 5 speed is rated at 2000 lbs (and I
    replaced my clutch at 45 k miles from towing my 2000 lb boat a couple
    of times over very hilly roads).  The automatic version was rated at
    4000 lbs.  Go for the automatic even if you are way below the rated
    limit then if you want to get a bigger boat you won't also have to get
    a new vehicle ($$$).
    Wayne

Trailer Boats Magazine's "Tow Vehicle of the Year" awards should be 
taken with a grain of salt.  The testing and rating system itself 
seems objective enough.  But by their system, only new or substantially 
redesigned vehicles are eligible for the award.  So XYZ Motor Company
may come out with a tow vehicle that wins the award, and remains the 
best tow vehicle available for the next 5 years (the Dodge Cummins
Turbo Diesel might be a good example).  But it will not be eligible 
to win Trailer Boats' award again until it is completely redesigned.

The key is that their award goes to the "best new tow vehicle for
THAT YEAR".  Last year's winner may still be better.

Rick

    
    	At least in my case, a tow vehicle is a matter of balancing
    the need to tow the boat and have a "commutable" daily driver.
    
    	When the boat is behind my truck, I'd love to have a 440ci
    engine under the hood of the Dakota, but when I pull up to the
    gas pumps the same would not be true.
    
    	Currently, the V6 provides decent gas mileage for commuting
    and adequate power for towing. If I was to purchase a new vehicle
    I think a V8 Dakota might be the vehicle of choice.
    
    Ah yes I'm rambling again....
    
    Rick
    

Re. .70, the difference in the 116 Hp of the Toyota 2.4 and the 120 Hp Isuzu 3.1
(GM) V6 is not 4 Hp when it comes to towing, but the 25 more lbs. ft of torque
that the 3.1 has. 140 compared to 165. (the same ongine in the Pontiac Trans 
Sort is rated at 175 lbs ft.)

The Explorer is a nice vehicle. Ford's reputation for quality is pretty good. 
The question is whether you can give up the extra space and niceness of the Ford
as compared to the smaller and truckier Toyota for chance that the Toyota might
be more reliable? Or, is the extra space and niceness of Ford needed enough to
tempt you from that Toyota feeling?

Also there is that small matter of price. Re."I may get a better price" It isn't
a matter of what dealer is willing to "give" you a better price, since these two
aren't really priced the same. The Toyota costs a lot more. 

A Explorer starts as low as $17,110 for a 3 door 4X4 XL with automatic, that 
includes the 4.0 V6. The 4Runner 3 door V6 4X4 automatic starts at $20,398. But
that doesn't make any sense since the import 5 door is cheaper, (tax) at $19,898.
The Explorer 5 door 4X4 XL with automatic is $18,089. But then you can get the
XLT version (captain's chairs, floor console, power mirrors, power windows and
door locks, cargo cover, upgraded door panels, cruise control, tilt steering
column) for $19,775 same price as the Toyota, but a lot more stuff. Of course
these prices are "base" prices and either truck is likely to be equiped with 
some options on the dealer's lot. But the basic point is that the Ford can def-
inately cost less, or for the same money offer more.

One other comment, if you can live with the three door Explorer (as indicated by
listing the the Navajo - a 3 door only) you can save a lot. It isn't just the
2 less doors, but the wheelbase and body are shorter too. In return the sticker
price is a lot lower, plus the "Sport" versions offer much larger package dis-
counts on option groups than the 5 doors so the difference in bottom line 
sticker price between equivalently equiped 3 door and 5 door models can be very
substantial. I think this is done because the 5 door is expected to be the most
desirable model hence they can keep the prices up on it.

john

    
    As John mentioned, the prices are LIST.  The Explorer is heavily 
    discounted.  Muzi Ford has an ad in today's Globe for an Explorer
    with 4.0 V-6, overdrive (probably standard trans?), stereo cassette,
    rear wiper, air cond, captains chairs, and luggage rack for $16971.
    
    Also as John mentioned, look at torque figures, not just hp.  Horse-
    power gives you the ability to "go fast", torque is what gives you
    the ability accelerate to that high speed quickly.  Simply put,
    horsepower provides top end speed, torque provides acceleration.
    
    Rick who_wishes_he_had_such_tough_decisions_to_make

I'd like to offer a few comments here about the Explorer.  I'm comming up on 
9,000 mi on my 4dr Xl and have been happy with the vehicle except for a few
minor problems (see 4wd notes conf GENRAL::4WD).  I haven't had the pleasure
of towing a boat with it yet, but I'm working on that.  I have however, towed 
snowmobiles with it and not had any problems.

As was mentioned previously the Explorer is being discounted heavily by dealers.
You should be able to find one for maybe $100 over dealer cost.  I think you'll
find that the 2dr version might only save you $1,000 vs the 4dr version.

If you do decide to look into buying one pay particular attention to the 
differences in the tow ratings for the automatic vs. the manual and the 4wd 
version vs. 2wd.  The 2wd version can have significantly lower tow ratings 
depending on what transmission you choose.  To get the maximum tow rating of 
5000 lbs you need to have the 4wd and automatic trans.  Also, I think that
transmission cooling and engine cooling play a factor in the rating.  I don't 
remember all the different variations, but some versions of the Explorer can be rated for 
as little as 2000 lbs so be clear on what you want when you talk to a dealer.

Good luck!

Gregg who_desparately_needs_a_boat_to_tow

    	One helpful hint on towing is to utilize your hand-brake when 
    pulling the boat out of the water on any ramp. Don't release the hand-
    brake until you have released the clutch to its "friction-point" and it 
    is pulling the vehicle forward. 
    
    	This reduces the strain on the tranny caused from the "roll-back"
    that occurs during the time you release the foot-brake and engage the
    clutch/accelerator.
    
    	-Hoop-

Re. .77, four wheel drive can have many advantages when towing, but increasing
the trailerable limits isn't necessarily one of them. Matter of fact four wheel
drive often decreases trailering limits on account of the extra weight of the
drive system. Trucks are rated at a Gross Combination Weight which includes the
vehicle, trailer, passengers, cargo, and equipment, - everything that is going
down the road. The engine is rated to pull only so much weight, and if the 4WD
weighs an extra 300 pounds, that is 300 pounds that can't be towed.

The Explorer brochure seems to bare this out. Though towing information isn't
specifically listed in a table (like it is in other truck brochures) on page 15
it states it can tow "a maximum trailer weight of 5,700 pounds (4X2) or 5,400
pounds (4X4) (reduced by passenger can cargo weight in the towing vehicle). See
your dealer for required equipment."

The GMC Sonoma brochure (pickup) also states that a "properly equipped 4X2 
Sonoma with available 4.3 V6 can move a gross combination weight of up to 9500
lbs." The maximum towing rating is in the 2 wheel drive model (with automatic).

The comment in .77 (talk to your dealer) is well taken, especially in this day
and age of cars sold as models or packages. These vehicles are trucks, and as
such everything must be speced out on them for your use. Truck manufacturers
still realize that not everyone has the same requirements, so many paramters
(i.e., options) are open to you. And they expect truck buyers to know what they
want what (as many of their traditional customers do). This is necessary to 
preserve flexibility in making sure that they can accomodate the weekend cowboy
as well as the weekend boat tower witht the same basic unit. It isn't done to
fool or aggrivate people.

john

I didn't mean to imply that 4wd was necessarily the reason why the tow ratings
are different on the 4wd version vs the 2wd version although looking back at
my note I can see how one would draw that conclusion.  The actual reason has to
do with the axle ratio that comes with the 4wd version vs. the 2wd.  If you get
the 4wd version of the Explorer you automatically get a 3.72 ratio where as with
the 2wd version the standard is 3.08 with 3.72 optional.  The tow rating for 
an Explorer with the 3.08 is only in the 2000 lbs range from what I understand.

Sorry for the confusion.

Gregg

Ok, thanks. Re. 2WD: "properly equiped", and seeing your dealer for details, is 
the best bet since a standard 4WD might have a higher rating than the standard 
2WD, but optioning the 2WD with the proper equipment may yield a higher rating 
(at a lower cost) than the 4WD. So we are saying the same thing. Research the
 vehicles and make sure you get one properly equiped for your needs.

john

    
    I'm not sure if I agree with the advice to "talk to the dealer".
    That's one source of info, but their advice should be weighed
    along with the specs in the brochure or factory trailer towing
    guide, and your own driving experience.
    
    My experience tells me that most salesmen don't know jack sh*t
    about the cars they're selling, and will tell you anything you
    want to hear.  When I bought my new Dodge Ram 50, I got in and
    tilted the adjustable steering column up.  The salesman looked 
    in and said "how'd you do that?".  He had no idea they all had
    an adjustable column.  And most salesmen have even less exper-
    ience with towing.
    
    The "tech letters" sections of most boat magazines are full of 
    letters from people whose dealers told them their new Cherokee 
    or Ranger could easily tow 5000 lbs through the Rockies.  Most 
    of 'em are pretty disappointed when they find out the truth.
    
    Rick

    I can't find my March edition of Trailer Boats but I'm pretty sure
    that that is the edition that names the Chevy SS454 as the tow vehicle
    of the year.  They also have a chart which is a couple of pages long
    showing the current tow ratings of every vehicle available, cars and
    trucks, and what equipment is required to obtain that maximum tow
    rating.  They even list the Sterling (2000 lbs, if anyone is
    interested) so you should be able to find any currently offered vehicle
    in the chart.  Most manufacturers offer a towing package option which
    will give you everything that they require to tow the max rating.
    Wayne

    
    	Thanks for the quick replies...  I'm not rushing into anything
    	yet without much more research... The replies were helpful.
    
    	I have also been thinking about the auto vs manual transmission
    	trade-offs.  I don't trailer that often, since I live year-round
    	on a lake.   But sometimes the back yard gets a little boaring
    	and I like to fish new waters.  I will also need to do some 
    	payback and drive my vehicle pulling Don Mac's boat to FL
    	for the next two spring trips.
    
    	Thanks again and keeps the comments comming.
    
    	the harbormaster
    

Re: .83

I've seen that table of tow specs in Trailer Boats and the data on the Explorer
is at worst incorrect and at best incomplete.  In any case I wouldn't rely on
it regarding the Explorer.

At the time that I bought my Explorer (last summer), Ford did not have a
brochure which detailed the various towing options.  Hopefully, they have one
now and this would definitely be the best place to look.  In my case I had to
rely on the salesman giving me the information and fortunately I had one who
was reasonably informed on the topic.  I agree that not all are.

Gregg

    My towing experience has led me to a rather simple rule of thumb which
    I think applies well to small boats, utility and RV trailers. Very
    simply, given an automatic transmission, and a real frame to mount the
    hitch, you need about 1 liter of engine cubic inches for every thousand
    pounds that you want to pull. This will allow you to maintain 55-60 on
    the flats , and 45-50 on the hills.  If you go bigger your daily
    mileage may suffer, if you go smaller your car/truck may suffer. Extra
    tranny cooler is highly recommended. 
    
    My 2.8 V6 was borderline for my 2800# 19'. My father pulled his 2000#
    pontoon with a 2.6 four cylinder. Adequate for occasional use but for
    weekly use we have both recently upgraded to American V8's. When you 
    consider all costs associated with purchasing a new vehicle, a good 
    used piece of Detroit iron is a bargain. I pay a few bucks more a 
    week for gas, but nothing compared to new_car payments, stiff auto 
    insurance, excise tax, etc. But, I'm convinced that buying boats and
    trucks is an emotional thing that no amount of logic can justify. Just
    accept it. 
    
    ~jeff_a_quiet_reader
    
      

    Gregg, I found my copy of the March addition.  You are right.  They
    have the Explorer two-door 4 x 2 listed twice, both with the same 
    required options (auto tranny, 3.73:1 axle ratio, and trailer towing
    package). One has a tow limit of 5700#, the other says 5400#.  The 
    only other Explorer they list is the four-door 4 x 2, same options with
    a 5500# rating.  They don't even list a 4 x 4 version (why bother
    buying an Explorer if you don't need four wheel drive).  I have read a
    number of other mags (car, truck, Four Wheeler, Offroad) that did 
    articles on the Explorer 4 door, 4 x 4, same options as above.  They
    were all consistent in saying that the tow limit was 5000#.
    Wayne

	I've read this note with interest as I
 recently(15 monthes) traded up to a full size Bronco.
Yes I do hate the gas mileage.....Anyway, I had been 
towing my 17' Boston Whaler with a 4wd Toyota 5 speed.
Frankly, the engine was enough to get around, not 
judging logevity, but the brakes were clearly under 
sized for the task.  
	My advice is to consider the weight not only in 
terms on the engine to motivate, but the brakes to stop.  
I had a couple of interesting arrested landings while 
at or near the "limit" of the vehicle.

Steve

    
    I just purchased a 20' cuddy on a repo deal.  Loaded upr with trailer
    it weighs in around 3800-4000 lbs.  My tow vehicle is a 1987 Chevy
    S10 extended cab 4WD.  It has the 2.8l V6, 3.73 gears and a 1500 lb
    payload upgrade (beefier springs, torsion bars, etc.).  
    
    I have towed my neighbor's 19' cuddy which weighs around 3200 lbs.
    fully loaded without a problem.
    
    I plan on trailering every other weekend from Derry to Winnie and/or
    Great Bay.  I will be adding a trans. cooler, receiver hitch and
    20 gal. tank.  The trailer is a new Load-Rite with surge brakes.
    
    Does anybody have experience with this vehicle pulling the same
    weight ?  Am I pushing it (can't afford to throw for a new vehicle
    at this point) ?
    
    Your suggestions and feedback welcome.
    
    Dave
     

    re: Dave,
    
    	You're going to know that 20' cuddy is back there. I've towed
    my ~3400 lb Nautique behind a 2.8l Comanche and currently behind
    a 3.9l Dakota. Both trucks know there is extra weight attached to
    the rear. Auto or standard in the S15? 5th gear in both trucks is
    really only useful above 60-65 on the highway and planning ahead
    for the hills is a must.
    
    Good luck, enjoy the new toy!
    
    Rick

Traction on some launch ramps might be a problem, unless you have
excellent tires and considerable weight in the bed of the S10 (right over
the axle and just forward of it).

I've watched many S10s, Rangers, and imports spinning wheels on various
ramps. They were obviously "comfortable" driving the rigs on the road,
and able to launch, but coming back up the ramp appeared to be the
killer.

Happy new boat!

Art

    My biggest concern with your set-up would be your ability to stop the
    boat/trailer. Your boat & trailer outweigh your truck by 800-1000
    pounds I would imagine, plus your truck rearend is light to begin with.
    Any attempts to brake hard my lead to an encounter_of_the_browning_kind. 
    
    If there's a possibility of leaving the boat at Winnie during the week
    you may want to consider it.
    
    I was never impressed with the performance of my 2.8 V6 w/carb & 3.42
    rearend, 2 wheel drive S10 Blazer pulling #3000 pounds. It did the job
    at almost full throttle and 10 mpg. Braking hard from 55-60 mph on 
    anything other than straight-dry road gave me the willies.
    
    jeff

    The correct tongue-hitch weight may help with the launch ramp traction.  
    I believe tongue-hitch weight should generally be about 10% of trailer 
    weight, ie; 4000 lb trailer (plus boat) = 400 lbs. hitch weight.  This 
    will also result in a more stable tow, with less tendency to sway.  
    Again, poor braking in pickups is due to light loading of the rear tires.  
    It might be desirable to move the boat forward on the trailer x number of
    inches to increase the tongue weight a bit.  If a trailer has brakes,
    applying the brakes effectively increases tongue weight.  
    
    At any rate, I pity anyone stuck behind you on long grades!  ;-)
    
    Carl
    

    
    I just bought a 91' Toyota 4X4.  The truck has a tow
    capacity of 3500 lbs.  I'm sure this is adequate to
    tow my lightweight Baja around, but I don't think it
    has the HP to tow a tournament boat.  Any comments?
    
    Jeanne
    

    
    re: Past few,
    
    >it weighs in around 3800-4000 lbs.  My tow vehicle is a 1987 Chevy
    >S10 extended cab 4WD.  It has the 2.8l V6, 3.73 gears and a 1500 lb
    
    	This truck is 4 wheel drive, 4-Low will have no problems on the
    ramp.... But, as a word of caution, do use 4-Low as my 2.8l Comanche
    just sat there on a particularly steep tar ramp once in 2-Hi with
    the clutch all the way out!
    
    Rick

    
    re: Jeanne,
    
    	Congrats on the new Toy! That beast has a V6 doesn't it? And it's
    only rated 3500? Hmmmmm... Are they starting to rate trucks
    realistically, maybe? 
    
    	Hey, bring it down and we'll try towing the Nautique around to
    answer your question... :-)  Actually, even though a tournament
    boat would be right at the Toyota's tow limit, I would guess that it
    would pull one without too much trouble.
    
    	Rick

	re last few.

	Yeah, lets beat on Jeanne's new truck !  See if it can haul 
something like a blazer  AND  a tournament boat up a non-ramp (-:

	Trailer brakes:  I usually give my rig a few test stops after 
I retrieve the boat.  I figure the linings need to be dried out 
following a couple of minutes (sometimes more) of total immersion.

	Reg

PS	SOME people leave their trailer in the water for the WHOLE TIME 
their boat is out - not ME !

	

    
    Tanks Rick!  As soon as I get it rigged for towing we'll
    have to throw your boat on and see what happens...(you're
    insured? right?!)  
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    

    
    Wether a truck has a v6 is only part of limit of the towing capacity of
    the vehicle. The S-15 with the 2.8l has a towing capacity of 3500lbs.
    You can probably haul more, but be carefull. That much weight behind
    the truck is really going to move your truck around. So take it easy in
    corners, and when it's windy. And I hope you have trailer breaks.
    
    Mike

re;  the last few concerning the S10

I was in the same boat three years ago. Fed up with new car/truck prices and 
didn't have it to spend anyways.  I bought a 1978 Caddy Sedan Deville (425 
w/four barrel carb).  I pull a 4000# (dry) boat on tandem w/ brakes and get 10
mpg @ 60mph.  In order to set car up for towing I added trans cooler, air 
shocks and class III hitch.  The car's only use is for towing and occasional 
hauling lumber, plants, etc.  The insurance for liability is $250 a year.  The
yearly cost to have a safe towing vehicle is well worth peace of mind.

1979 was the last year for the 425 in the Deville.  My caddy is loaded with 
leather, electric everything and plenty of room for coolers.  There are a few 
rust spots but generally a good looking car.  Last summer we towed the boat 
five hours non-stop (caddy has 125K miles) on one of the hottest days of 
summer, 104 degrees with no problems.

Still dreaming about that blue suburban.

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 896.0                Towing a wooden 1958 Thompson               No replies
FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..."               33 lines  15-AUG-1991 16:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	I recently acquired a wooden/mahogany 1958 17' Thompson boat
	and I'm looking for advice on what it will take to tow it.

	The boat is the covered bow/windshield type, has a '78 65 HP
	Evinrude on the back, and is trailered by a nice '83 EZ Loader
	trailer (14'' tires).  I have no idea on the weight, but I know
	it's very heavy.

	The reason I ask is that I had a bit of trouble getting it *out*
	of the water after taking it out onto a lake for the first time.
	(Didn't want to get onto the ocean before working the bugs out).
	The temporary tow vehicle was my bro-in-law's Ford F-150 2 wheel
	drive pickup.

	While testing the boat for a couple of hours, the boat took on a bit 
	of water due to twice opening up the manual bilge to test it, only to 
	find I should have been going faster :-O
	So it took on some water then, as well as taking on some from the
	rear splash due to the weight of the water.  Hopefully that's the
	only reason it took on water!  I figure 50-100 gallons of water were 
	in the boat, which added hundreds of pounds of weight and the pickup
	really labored to get it out of the water.  Not as much of a problem
	after the water was drained, and the boat re-launched/re-loaded,
	but still, it strained the truck (maybe due to the intense strain
	with the extra weight.   

	I need a permanent vehicle to tow it, any suggestions ?  

	Should the Ford F150 be able to handle it (recent clutch installed) 
	so I can use it now ?

	Thanks for any advice,
	Ken (who will install an automatic bilge pump)

    
    
    	Whew! 50-100 gallons of water in the boat... I wonder if a 17 foot
    boat would still float with that much water in it..... I know an 8foot
    boat won't... :-)
    
    	As for the F-150 pulling the boat out of the water... The truck is
    going to know that it's doing a little work... especially on the
    steeper ramps. But, the f-150 should have plenty of beef to do the job.
    I always use 4-low just for the low gearing in my Dakota when pulling
    the boat up the ramp, of course that's a little difficult to do in a
    2wd vehicle.
    
    	As for a permanent vehicle, I'd suggest a 4 wheel drive... This
    note contains some other good opinions on the subject, also...
    
    	Rick

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 896.1                Towing a wooden 1958 Thompson                   1 of 1
ROBOAT::HEBERT "Captain Bligh"                        6 lines  15-AUG-1991 16:41
                                 -< Traction >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think the F150 could definitely pull it, without strain. The
problem would be pulling it up the launch ramp, not because of "guts" but
because of traction. I've watched hundreds of empty pickups spinning
tires on launch ramps. Better tires or more weight over the rear axle
would have helped nearly all of them.

    You didn't mention if the F-150 was an auto or a standard.  An auto in
    a 2 WD vehicle would certainly help otherwise you would have to feather
    the clutch.  You also didn't mention what trouble you had coming up the
    ramp.  Did the rear tires spin or did it just feel like you had a load
    on the back?  As far as I know, the smallest engine available in the
    F-150 is the good old 300 cubic inch straight 6 that Ford has had for
    years.  The next engine option is the 302 V-8.  Either engine should
    pull your boat fine assuming you have traction at the ramp which is
    often not the case.  If the ramp was in good condition and your tires
    were spinning, I would check the tongue weight of the trailer.  You
    will need to weigh the whole rig complete with gear and fuel at a weigh
    station.  My 15 foot wooden boat with an inboard V-8 weighs a little
    over 2000 lbs.  Your boat with an outboard probably doesn't weigh much
    more and an F-150 should handle it.  I bet the real problem was that
    the amount of water which ended up in the back of the boat created a
    "negative tongue weight" which worked to lift up the back of the truck.
    By installing a pump and adjusting the position of the boat on the
    trailer, the F-150 would probably work fine on most ramps.  Four wheel
    drive is worth the piece of mine if you are going to buy something as
    the low range really helps.  
    One more thing, one of the signs of incorrect tongue weight would be
    that the trailer tends to wander while going down the road.  Did you
    notice that?  Can get dangerous.
    BTW, I have an 83 Ford Ranger that has no trouble towing my boat.  I
    always use the 4 WD/ low range no matter how good the ramp.
    Wayne

    I used to have a 17' Thompson-as well as an 18'.
    
     I used a Dodge dart with a 170 C.I. Slant 6 and a Dart with a 225
    Slant 6, both with automatics to tow the 17'Boat- the 170 srtrained - a
    lot! The 225 was an easy tow- even towed my 19' Hawkline (F/G)with the 
    car. Both Boats had an 85 Hp Chrysler.
    
    The 18' Thomp[son was a different story- that was a BIG, heavy boat-
    Had an old 75 HP V4 Johnson fuel hog. My dart wouldn't even think about
    towing that boat. Ended up using a ford Van with a 302
    
    If your Thompson is really a 17', the F-150 should be able to tow it
    easily as I assume you have either the 300 CI 6 cyl or the 302 V/8.
    You will strain getting up the ramp,but Traction may be more of a
    problem than power.
    
     I currently have a 22' North American (5000 lb+), 350 chev, with lots
    of extra weight added- FWC, dual batteries,heavier manifolds, etc. with 
    a tandem axle trailer. I put the boat in the water in the spring- haul
    it in the fall. Towing vehicle is a Doidge Van, 225 CI 6 (modified with
    higher compression and a 2BBl carb) with a 4spd stick- If the ramp is
    not too steep, I can haul it out (my problem is traction), and I can
    maintain 55 mph with no problem- at least on 195 and 95 from Rhode
    Island to Foxboro
    
     Towing a 17'Thompson with a 65 with an F-150 should be easy. I suspect
    that (without all the water)Boat ,Motor,Trailer are around 2000#
    
    Dick
    
    
    trailer
    
    [C
    [C

	Thanks for all the great and encouraging info!  I can smell
	the salt spray as I type ;-)

	To answer the questions: the F150 is a standard 8 cylinder,
	and has been used for construction type work for several years
	hauling stone and other building materials with no problem.
	Good, new tires on it.  Not exactly sure of the engine size,
	but it's definitely 8 cylinders.

	I think the tongue weight is OK.  The only problem towing was
	getting it *out* of the water.  It rides really nicely on
	the road and on the highway with no swaying at all.  It sure
	is nice to look in the rearview mirror and see my own boat attached ;-)

	But with all that water in it and the resulting "negative tongue",
	it makes sense that we had a problem.  The power bilge will be
	installed shortly to deal with that.  Plus, the ramp was a gravel/
	packed sand ramp at a Buffamville in Charlton with minimal slope.
	The tires spun with all that weight.

	Since no major eyebrows were raised over the amount of water
	taken in, I assume I shouldn't be too worried about a problem of
	a leak in the boat ?   Of course I'll keep an eye on it.  The
	bilge pump is rated for about 800 gallons/hour.

	Thanks again,
	Ken

    
    	Well its been a long time since starting to look at the Ford
    	Explorer last March.  Since its introduction Ford has had 
    	three price inceases, but buys can still be had.
    
    	However, I am now about ready to put a down payment on a 92
    	Dakota 4x4 Super LE Club Cab in preparation for our annual 
    	spring break fishin' trip south next March.  I opted for
    	the 6 cyl with 5 speed manual.  The 8 cyl option only came
    	with an auto, which after adding the tow package to get
    	tranny cooling became a bit pricey.
    
    	Any comments
    
    	The Harbormaster
    

    I wouldn't think twice about going the extra amount to get the V-8 and
    auto with towing package.  Even if you don't need the towing capacity
    now, it (V-8/auto) will really come in handy if you want to upgrade.
    The Dodge 318 has been around for years and years. It's a nice engine.
    A don't advocate towing anything with a medium-duty standard shift
    equipped truck unless you enjoy paying for new clutches.  I burnt out
    a clutch and pressure plate on my V-6 5 speed standard powered 4 wheel
    drive Ranger pulling only a 2000# boat and trailer 4 times.
    You should get a copy of Trailer Boats magazine.  They have a complete
    listing of tow vehicle tests which they have done over the years which
    for a minimum charge they will send you a copy of.  I'm sure they did
    the Dakota V-8 within the last years and really liked it.  I might be
    able to find my copy.  I personally am waiting for the day that I can
    get a new Ford Explorer but my second choice (if I where to stick to a
    pick-up) might be the Dakota.
    Wayne     

    
    	I find my Dakota V6, 5-Speed (1987, Carb'd) is sufficient
    for towing the 3400 lbs of Nautique and trailer. Large highway
    hills must be planned for ahead of time, but maybe the EFI on
    the newer models would make up for that.
    
    	As for the clutch, yeah it needs one, but I would also if I'd
    been abused as the Dakota's clutch has been abused for the past
    50k miles.... :-)
    
    Rick
             

    
     The Dakota V/8 with the 318 is a real powerhouse. THat new series of
    Magnum engines by Chrysler is absolutley amazing. The 92 V/6's have
    nore HP than the prevbious v/8's! I test drove a full size long wheel
    base van with the 318 and Auto- it was a real thrill- especially
    comparing with a 91 (same type of Van) with the "old" 318.

    While I agree that a V8 and automatic are better for towing, lesser
    rigs can certainly handle many people's towing needs. 
    
    I've been towing boats a couple of times a week for the past 4.5 
    years on my 4cyl 5sp toy 4x4, for over 100K miles, and I'm still on my
    original clutch - and rear brakes for that matter.  Granted I'm
    currently only towing about 1500lbs.  On numerous occasions I've had to 
    pull fairly large boats of out ramps where full sized 2wd v8 automatic
    trucks were not up the the job. (also pulled out a submerged jeep once!) 
    
    Gary doesn't tow his boat much (it's a barge!), so although the V8 and
    automatic would definitely be better for towing, I think what he's
    looking at would be up for the job.
    
    -donmac (who's boat will be behind Gary's new tow vehicle on the way
             down south in a couple months)

    I had replied to this note earlier, then deleted it when I
    re-read Wayne's note and realized his Ranger DID have 4WD.
    
    Anyway, I've gotta believe Wayne that the fried clutch in your 
    V6 4X4 Ranger was the result of a defective or mis-adjusted 
    clutch, since I'm 100% confident in your driving ability.  8^)
    Towing a 2000lb boat only 4 times shouldn't fry the clutch.
    Did you use the 4WD low range when hauling out?
    
    I've been towing a 2000 lb boat *everywhere* for 3 years with
    my Dodge Ram 50 4X4 with a 2.6L 4 cylinder and 5 speed.  I 
    *always* use the 4X4 low range when driving up launch ramps 
    with no clutch slippage whatsoever, and the original clutch 
    is still fine after 126K miles.  So while V8 power would be
    nice, towing 2000 lbs with a standard transmission equipped
    light duty truck CAN be done successfully.
    
    Rick

  >>  I've been towing boats a couple of times a week for the past 4.5 
  >>  years on my 4cyl 5sp toy 4x4, for over 100K miles, and I'm still on my
  >>  original clutch - and rear brakes for that matter.  Granted I'm
    
   That's good to hear...I've got the same set-up.  I'd like to
    see if this truck will go 300K+ like the Toyota commercials advertise.
    
    /jd
    

    Rick, maybe my clutch was on the way out anyways.  I've used it alot 
    hauling crushed stone, loam, lumber, and other things while working
    around the house.  My four trips included the trip from Charlton, Mass
    to Mason when I bought it and from Mason to Lake Monanak (sp?), all
    very hilly.  I always launch/retrieve in 4 low.  Maybe the old mahogany
    Century weighs more than I think.  I'm estimating the weight from using
    old sales liturature plus my guess at the weight of a small block Ford
    and the trailer.  I would still, given the opportunity, go with an auto
    tranny.  
    Wayne
    

    To whom it may concern I just got finshed pulling a 2.5 ton Renken 2100
    aft cabin all the way from South Carolina up 95 to Northbridge Ma. .MY
    gas milage was a little low but my Dakota v6 with od 4speed auto with 
    4 wheel drive did it in stride never even came normal temp. This Dakota
    is the sport model which is the 6.5 foot bed but everything else is the
    same as the Dakota full size.Note if you op for the full size you can 
    get the v8 but the mid size only has room for the v6 which is a 3.9
    litter with throtlebody carb.My beast is a 1988 and has 70,000 on it.
    
    Good luck Dave Howell

    re:
    >                  <<< Note 7.115 by DCSVAX::HOWELL >>>
    >                    -< The Dakota Is the Greatest! >-
    >
    >To whom it may concern I just got finshed pulling a 2.5 ton Renken 2100
    >aft cabin all the way from South Carolina up 95 to Northbridge Ma. .MY
    >gas milage was a little low but my Dakota v6 with od 4speed auto with 
    
    	Whew! A 5000 lb boat, does that include 1k-2k for the trailer?
    
    	Capacity for the Dakota is only 5K isn't it? I sure hope that
    4speed Auto has a heavy duty cooler on it.
    
    >get the v8 but the mid size only has room for the v6 which is a 3.9
    >litter with throtlebody carb.My beast is a 1988 and has 70,000 on it.
    
    	Gee, I thought all the 1988+ Dakotas were EFI equipped, except
    maybe the new Magnums...
    
    Rick
    
    BTW: I would think that a reasonable boater would be towing SOUTH
    on route 95..... :-) :-)

RE: Note 7.115  
>> This Dakota is the sport model which is the 6.5 foot bed but everything
>> else is the same as the Dakota full size.  Note if you op for the full 
>> size you can get the v8 but the mid size only has room for the v6 which
>> is a 3.9 litter 

I'm confused - I didn't know there was a mid-size and a full-size 
Dakota?  

I ass-u-me you're using the terms full and mid size in place of "long" 
and "short" bed?  If so, the short bed is the same from the cab forward 
as the long bed.  Any reasons for not making the V8 available in the 
short bed would be based strictly on marketing or safety, not from a 
space standpoint.

Rick

    I located the April 1991 Trailer Boat mag which had a towing report on
    the 1991 Dakota Club Cab with the 4 speed auto tranny.  If you would
    like me to mail you a copy of the report, just send me your mail stop.
    This was a 2 wheel drive truck with tow package, anti-spin
    differential, 3.90:1 axle ratio, and weight-distributing hitch.  They
    compared the V-6 with a V-8 with the same equipment.  The V-6 was rated
    at 4680#'s.  The V-8 (with the same axle ratio) only jumped to 5000#.
    The V-8, if ordered with a 3.90:1 axle ratio plus a "2000 # Payload
    Package" is rated at 5900#'s.  The truck they tested had the 3.90:1
    axle.  It sounds like you would be perfectly happy with the 3.9L for
    what you are towing.  Unfortunately, they gave no comparison figures
    for a standard shift vehicle but those must be available at the dealer. 
    Good luck,
    Wayne (who is very good at helping other's spend their money)
    

   >what you are towing.  Unfortunately, they gave no comparison figures
   >for a standard shift vehicle but those must be available at the dealer. 
    
    I've been looking at used sport utilities and am having a hard time
    finding any printed literature that supports towing heavy loads with a
    manual transmission. I know that Nissan and Toyota rate their SUV's at
    3500# with either a manual or an automatic transmission, but they seem
    to be the exception. Jeep supposedly, and I haven't found it in writing
    yet, is only rated for 2000# with the manual, or 5000# with the auto
    [both vehicles have the 4.0 liter I6]. I saw a Ford Trailering brochure
    which I found interesting. The fullsize F150 and Bronco are only rated
    at #3200 (+/-) for the manual, and #5800 for the auto. I know the
    Dakota was rated at #4000+ with the auto, but haven't found anything
    for the manual. The salesdroids are worthless. I had one tell me that I
    could pull more if I had the oversized tires.  
    
    I know there are people out there pulling with manuals and they have 
    no complaints. I prefer driving a manual tranny myself but the numbers 
    say if you want to pull at the vehicles maximum rating then an auto 
    tranny with an extra cooloer is the way to go. Then again, in my book, 
    if you're pulling at the vehicles maximum limit then it's time for a 
    bigger tow vehicle. I fully understand the conflict of daily
    driver/weekend tow rig but safety has to come first.
    
    ~jeff_who_has_his_wifes_car_today_becuz_he_has_too_many_miles_to_drive_
          in_a_Blazer

    Jeff, it's interesting that someone would say that the way to increase
    the tow rating would be to run oversize tires when in fact it needs to
    be the other way around (assuming the tires have a high enough
    capacity).  An increase in tire size will affectively change your axle
    ratio and cause you to lose towing capacity.  A case in point is in
    this month's Trailer Boat Mag where they evaluate the GMC S-15 which
    GMC has increased the tow rating by decreasing the standard tire size!  I
    use oversize tires on my Ranger  (Wrangler P235-15 versus original
    P195-15's) because it gives the feeling of a much more stable ride when
    towing but the truck definitly is working harder. (Maybe that's why I 
    replaced a clutch at 70K miles?).
    Wayne

RE: Note 7.120 
>> it's interesting that someone would say that the way to increase
>> the tow rating would be to run oversize tires when in fact it needs to
>> be the other way around (assuming the tires have a high enough
>> capacity).  An increase in tire size will affectively change your axle
>> ratio and cause you to lose towing capacity.  A case in point is in
>> this month's Trailer Boat Mag where they evaluate the GMC S-15 which
>> GMC has increased the tow rating by decreasing the standard tire size!


Wellll, yes and no.  As you said, for the backyard DIY'er, going to a taller 
tire will reduce towing capacity by lowering the gear ratio.  But installing
a smaller tire to increase the ratio will also generally decrease the overall
GVW capacity of the vehicle.  Installing a taller/heavier tire *and* going to 
higher numerical gear ratio would be the best way to increase capacity, but 
is probably not cost effective for most vehicles.  It can cost upwards of $800 
to change the gears in a 2WD vehicle, twice that if you have 4WD.

But I doubt that GM (or any mfg'er) would reduce tire size to increase
towing capacity.  When the mfg'ers need a different overall ratio, they
do it by changing the gear ratio, not by changing tire diameter like you
or I would.  For them to specify a different gear ratio to compensate for 
a taller tire is no big deal. Most trailering packages have a different 
gear ratio from the standard one anyway.

Whatever happened to the good old days (I only read about 'em) when you 
could order just about any ratio you wanted, from 2.50 to 4.56?  Most 
sales dweebs today would look at you like you had 3 heads if you asked 
which ratio was best for towing.

Rick

    For the record  the 4000 rating on the Dakota is a little low I own a
    88 Dakota sport with auto and according to the shop manual which Dodge
    puts out the towing rating is 6000 with the 4 speed auto with 4 wheel
    drive and overdrive.The carrying capacity is 4000.

RE: Note 7.122
>> The carrying capacity is 4000.

Dodge must build one tough truck to carry 2 tons in the bed and
the cab.

Rick

>> RE: Note 7.122
>> >> The carrying capacity is 4000.

> Dodge must build one tough truck to carry 2 tons in the bed and
> the cab.

    	Yeah, I'll have to argue that one also, because the last time
    I heard, the Dakota was still a half-ton truck.
    
    Rick
    

    Argue if you like but I just pulled a 2.5 ton boat all the way from
    South Carolina to Ma. with no problems what so ever and unless the
    shop manual is a big type o I see no reason to not to beleave it.
    The 4x4 are rated alot higher then the 2 because Dodge puts all the
    heavy duty stuff in the 4x4 as standard where you have to add it to the
    2 wheel drive.Further more the 4x4 is rated for 10000 but 5252 is the
    trucks own wait althought you can not do both at the same time that is
    to say carry and tow a full load you can do 1 at a time.

    Dave,
    The rating I listed in 7.118 for the V-6 was 4680#'s. Since the
    manufacturers are usually conservative for safety's sake, I'm
    sure that you probably had no trouble towing a 2.5 Ton (5000#) boat.
    I think Rick/Rick are only questioning your statement about the
    4000# carrying capacity.  The heavy duty version of the Ford F-250 
    which is one of the premier haulers available is probably only rated
    for 2000#'s.  You'ld have to go to a F350 with duel rear tires before you
    could haul anything like 4000#'s.  And why would anyone want a pick-up
    truck that could carry 4000 pounds?  
    Wayne  

    I don't mean to start a war over this i'am just stating what the shop
    manual which is the manual that all Dodge dealers use to repair and
    service this truck states.If you don't beleave it I'am sorry but I
    can only state what this manual is saying under the spec's section.
     If you set down and think the truck ways 5252 + the boat ways 5000lbs
    what do you have but 10252 lbs.
     The specs giving by a mfg. are always inclusive of the vehicles weight
    and cargo weight because they have to beable to meet federal and state
    requirments for brakes and stoping and tire capacity.Now as far as the
    carring capacity is concern i meant to say 2000 lbs not 4000 this was my
    typo sorry.

<    4000# carrying capacity.  The heavy duty version of the Ford F-250 
<    which is one of the premier haulers available is probably only rated
<    for 2000#'s.  You'ld have to go to a F350 with duel rear tires before you
<    could haul anything like 4000#'s.  And why would anyone want a pick-up
<    truck that could carry 4000 pounds?  

   I have one of those Ford F250's (super-duper heavy duty 3/4 ton PU w/ towing
package).  Its GVW (truck, and contents) is rated at 8800 lbs.  The tare weight
is about 4300, so my "capacity" is in excess of 2 tons.  The ride in this thing
doesn't even smooth out until there is 2000 lbs in the bed, empty it's like
having NO springs at all... Got 125K miles on it and it's still going strong.

  When I bought it I found it interesting that this machine was rated to carry
more than it's rate to tow... I purchased it to carry the slide-in camper I had
at the time, but sold soon after getting the truck.

  I am still confused how a manufacturer classifies a pickup as 1/2 ton,
3/4 ton, 1 ton etc.  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the weight
of the vehicle or the vehicle's load capacity.

Sorry for the diversion but I couldn't resist,

Al

    My '87 Dakota 4X4 3-spd automatic has over 100K and has been towing a
    6000 pound Renken 2500 since the truck was new.  When climbing through
    the white mountains, I have to drop it to gee-haw while using the
    far-right lane, but I'm not after speed records anyway.
    
    I looked into the 1991 V-8s, but dealers wouldn't bargain, so I sunk a
    few bucks into the '87 and opted to keep her.  Damned good truck for
    the money.
    
    	-mike-

     I am considering purchasing eithor a Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0,or the
    Ford Explorer. I have heard that when you own a Jeep,it is one repair
    after another. Have'nt heard much eithor way with the Ford .
    
    The Jeep had some serious get-up-and go,but lacked interior room.
    It was just the opposite with the Explorer. 
    
    Any comments would be appreciated.
    
    Thx,
    
    Matt

    I do not own a jeep,but a friend does.The problem he has is that Jeep
    dealers aren't that plentiful.He was up in Northern Maine on vacation
    last year when his water pump said goodbye.We live in Central Mass.His
    brother in law had to drive him down here to Leominster,MA to get the
    part and go back up to Maine to repair it.Apparently the one at the
    dealer down here was the closest one.Ford dealers are "everywhere",
    and no I don't have an Explorer.The in-line 4.0 in the Jeep is a pretty
    strong motor.Try a comparable displacement in the Ford if that is the
    other choice.I had a 4.3v6 in my GMC that was quite potent.
    
    
    Happy hunting.
    Keith
    

    There's a ton of info on Jeeps, Explorers, and comparisons between
    the two in the GENRAL::4WD conference.
    
    Rick

    Thanks.
    
    I will check into the 4wd section. Out here in Colorado,Jeep dealers
    are plentiful,but I would rather not have to seek them out at all.
    
    The Jeep definately had the H.P.
    The Ford version of the 4.0 puts out 155 h.p. versus the Jeep's 190.
    The Ford also weighs 1000 lbs. more.
    The Ford is considerably roomier. 
    
    Decisions,Decisions

    Consumer Reports has done several recent articles comparing the Jeep,
    Ford and Chevy and the Japanese competition in this category. You may
    want to refer to those articles for additional information.
    
    Also, any recent CR Buyers Guide has a rating of used vehicles and all
    the above mentioned vehicles are reflected therein.
    
    Might help with the decision process.

    
    	Consumer Reports rate the Explorer and the Pathfinder as top of
    	class.  However, the Explorer hasn't been around long enough to 
    	get good repair data.  This was the one of the only drawbacks
    	I could come up with in my research (besides $$$$$).  FORD truck
    	parts cost big $$$$, and 80K -100K major repair horror stories
    	on some FORD products made be think twice.
    
    	Overall FORD did a great job on the Explorer, and I hope that
    	some of Mazda rubbed off in the reliablity and quality areas.
    
    	Gary B... who ended up with a Dakota Club Cab V6
    

    
    this one is from Ripley's...  i bought an 84 ford ranger new,
    based on consumer reports rating. ( iwon't bother with the detalis)
    
    i had it for over 7 yrs. it was the biggest piece of junk
    i ever owned...
    
    the facts, no bias, and no BS.
    
    JIm.

    '84 ford Bronco 2's and Rangers were junk,I owned a Bronco 2 and had 
    tranny problems after only 37k. miles.
    
    

    RE: .137
    	I think you can find good and bad stories about ANY vehicle.  I had
    an 84 Bronco 2 that I ordered with heavy duty EVERYTHING.  I had it for
    only 2 years but I put 55K on it including an awful lot of really rough
    off road work.  I had ZERO problems with the truck.  None.
    	There are vehicles on the road that I wouldn't even think about
    buying, but I'll bet there are people who have had great luck with
    them too.
    				My 2 cents,
    					    B.C.

    My 85 Cherokee with a 2.5L inline 4 has 112K - no major problems (water
    pump @90K) and that's it but for normal exhaust problems. It towed and
    launched ok. My new 91 Cherokee with a 4.0L is much stronger - I can
    hardly feel the 17' boat behind it.

    I know too many friends with older (83-84) Bronco 2's and Rangers.
    
    and I still say they were junk.
    

    RE: .140
    
    Well, how could anyone possible argue with that much data???  I really
    hate to burst your bubble of vast knowledge about "all" of them being
    junk, but as I said MINE was absolutly trouble free!
    
    As I said earlier, you can pick a vehicle, any vehicle, and some people
    will like them and some people will not....  Or would you like to tell
    me that I'm wrong about that fact also?
    
    Lighten up a little!  Give your input, but don't expect everyone to
    take what you say as the last word in vehicle reliability!
    
    					B.C.

    
    re. B.C.
    
    i agree, out of a bushel of apples, you'll find some bad ones.
    
    as for my 84 ranger, i found out that this was a transition
    year for the auto industry. in order to meet the epa standards
    on not yet having fuel injection they bastardized the carb.
    it had a nightmare of elec. controls which were difficult
    to maintain, and made the vehicle run louzy.
    
    at a little over 67K miles i had 5 major oil leaks. front and
    rear main seal, and 3 others. i took it to the dealer where
    i had purhcased it, the mechanic told me that this engine
    was good for about 80K miles, and to expect major problems
    at or around this time. 
    
    there was no incentive for them to lie, as i did not buy another
    ford. and the oil leaks were fact, the entire undercarriage was
    soaked with motor oil     (no a bit of rot tho).
    
    looking at it from a dollars and cents standpoint, it was
    not worth fixing it.
    
    thats what happened to my vehicle...
    
    JIm.

    I don't want to turn this into a Carbuffs extension, so I'll keep it
    short.  I have a '83 Ranger and a '87 Bronco II.  The basic difference
    between the two is that the Ranger has the 2.8 liter engine that was
    originally a German Ford design which has been around for 20-25 years.
    Very prone to oil journals clogging.  I got 48K out of my first engine.
    The '87 has a totally redesigned 2.9 liter which was introduced in '85.
    We have never had a problem with the Bronco II in 98K miles except a
    frozen thermostat.  I believe buying any vehicle is a crap shoot and
    subscribe to the theory that one should not purchase a vehicle (or
    boat) manufactured on a Monday morning or Friday afternoon.
    Wayne

    RE: .142
    
    	My point exactly Jim.  As you say, some are good and some are bad.
    Generalizations don't do anyone any good.  Both my Bronco II and the
    Ford van that I owned before were great vehicles for me.  Because of
    that I'm looking to buy a Ford Explorer now.  I don't feel that I have
    to shop other brands because of the good experiences I've had with my
    previous Fords and I'll be really surprised if my next one isn't as
    good.
    					B.C.
    

    I agree with .142. In general,the 84's were junk for more people than
    they were treasured.
    
    I will lighten up when the auto makers quit throwing untested and
    unproven junk out into the hands of the cunsumer. No wonder everyone
    is buying foreign and our economy stinks.
    
    Matt

    
    FOR TRADE:
    
    One Ford Ranger/Bronco II shop manual, includes complete rebuild
    instructions.
    
    For one case of Keystone Light...
    
    JIm.

    Matt,
    	I think you should go for the Jeep.  You've already made up your
    mind that Ford sells untested and unproven junk.  Since the Jeep body
    and suspension have been around for years and the engine has been
    around forever it sounds like a very well tested and well proven
    vehicle that must be absolutly trouble free!  After all, they've had
    plenty of time to work out the bugs.
    	Me?  I'm buying the Explorer.
    					B.C.

    Something must be good about the Explorer to have captured 30% of the
    4 door, sport utility market in the year or so that it's been out.  A
    few years ago there was only the Jeep Cherokee to choose from, now
    there are 13+ vehicles.  I don't know of anybody who ever bought a
    second Jeep but alot of people that have Explorers owned Fords before.
    From what I can tell, much of the design of the Explorer is based on
    the Bronco II including the 4 liter engine which is supposedly similar
    to the 2.9 liter from the Bronco II.  After having everything go wrong
    with my '83 Ranger and nothing go wrong with my '87 Bronco II, I
    believe that Ford already has figured out how to make a sport utility
    vehicle (and at a good price).
    Wayne

    
      As soon as my second Jeep wears out (1987 Cherokee 4.0, 103K miles so
    far with NO problems) I'll buy my third, and most likely will continue
    to buy Jeeps unless some really radical change for the worse takes
    place.
    
      As in previous notes, one can find horror stories for all brands and
    types of vehicles. Everyone just has to stick with what they feel
    comfortable with. I don't think there are any inherently 'bad'
    sport/utility vehicles around these days. Buy what you like, at a
    dealer that you can trust.
    
    				Kenny

    Does any of you out there have any experience trailering a boat behind
    a van? I'm thinking along the lines of the old Ford EconoLines rather
    than of the currently popular minivans. Do they have enough power to
    pull say a 20-foot boat with a 150hp outboard on the back?
    
    Let's assume the van has about 2000 pounds of cargo, if that makes any
    difference....
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    RE: .150
    	Depending on how the van is equipped they are rated for up to about
    10,000 lbs. towing capacity.  You need to know your engine, gear ratio,
    etc. and a dealer can tell you.
    					B.C.

    The Econolines are full sized vehicles so there should be no problem.
    Just pay attention to weight distribution etc. I assume a small V8
    vs the 300 cid 6. I trailererd my 22 footer with the six in a pickup
    and it was a tough haul..marginal at best. The auto tranny is also
    recommended (with oil cooler).
    
    Good luck
    
    Paul 

re Vans

	I would avoid a windowless van for backing down the ramps that 
I expect to be using for the next few years.   Or I would have to get 
a lot better at backing up with mirrors only, or just know my ramps a 
lot better.

	Reg

{needs to improve his backing skills with mirrors only ANYWAY (-:}

My cousin tows an '87 Nautique and a 28' pontoon boat (not at the same time, of
course :-)) with a Ford van with the 351 c.u. engine.  He doesn't seem to have
any problems.

...Roger...

I towed a 17' Boston Whaler with an E250 (351 V8 and auto) for about
three years. No problem mechanically, as I had a transmission cooler on
it (not that the Whaler overtaxed the van drive train anyway).

The biggest problems were visibility (had to open the back doors of the
van to back down any steep ramp) and maneuverability (that Econoline had
a   l o n g  wheelbase, about 133 inches) on ramp approaches and on the
ramp itself.

Wide mirrors helped some.

Other than that, no problem. 

    The extended body (not wheelbase) vans that you see often designed for
    carrying 18 or so people places the trailer hitch farther out back from
    the rear axle so the boat can get more "leverage" against the tow
    vehicle.  I don't remember the weight you quoted but it seemed to be
    fairly light.  I wouldn't expect any problem.  I towed a 4000# car on a 
    car trailer with my '77 Dodge Van (1/2 ton, 318 Auto).  No trouble at
    all.  Backing-up is a challenge but it was without a trailer anyways.
    Practice, practice, practice!  Maybe a set of the guide posts that get
    put on the back of the trailer to guide the boat into position would
    give you something to watch for if you have to use mirrors.
    Wayne

    A year or two ago, Trailer Boats did an article on a new type of 
    trailer hitch designed for use with long rigs or vehicles with 
    lots of rear overhang.
    
    Basically, it was large hitch that mounted under the entire rear of
    the vehicle. What it did was move the pivot point up to just behind
    the rear axle, and an extension then protruded out the rear of the
    vehicle.  The extension was allowed to swing in a large arc, and
    could actually turn to face out of either side of the vehicle as 
    well as the rear.  The point at which the trailer attached to the
    hitch was held rigid if I remember right, so that all turning was
    done at the forward pivot, just behind the axle.
    
    They said it made a long rig much more maneuvarable, and in fact you
    you could actually back the trailer to almost a full jackknife 
    position, around 90 degrees off the side, since the hitch could swing 
    out to either side of the vehicle. I don't think it was cheap though, 
    somewhere in the neighborhood of $800-1000.
    
    Rick

re                        <<< Note 7.157 by GOLF::WILSON >>>
>                              -< A special hitch >-

	Brian Shaw has/had one  ....4wd noters know who I mean (-:

	Reg

I just bought a 14' 1963 Boston Whaler with a 1978 20hp Merc that rides on a 
Highlander trailer.   I want to make sure that I'm not doing any damage to the 
boat or engine when I trailer it.  This is my first experience trailering a 
boat with the motor on and I have a few questions:

The Merc manual says that the tilt bracket isn't strong enough to support the
motor while trailering the boat.  But if I trailer with the motor down, the skeg
is only about 6" from the ground and I'm afraid it might hit.  What is a safe 
distance between the skeg and the ground?  

Should I trailer with the motor up or down?  How can I keep the motor tilted 
without using the tilt bracket?  I tried a block of wood, but the motor seemed 
to bounce up and down on it as I went over any bumps.  Also, with the motor 
raised it wants to flop over to one side unless I tie the steering wheel in 
one position.

I'm new at this so any advice is greatly appreciated.

-Stevie D

    RE: .159
    
    	Any boating supply catalog should list a "transom saver" which is 
    nothing more than a brace that goes from the trailer (or roller) to the
    lower unit of the motor.  Should cost ~$20 - $30.
    
    						B.C.

    Their are towing braces you can buy from your dealer or any marine
    store just ask for an outboard towing brace and it will take care of
    having to leave that skeg to close for comfort.

    >	Any boating supply catalog should list a "transom saver" which is 
    >nothing more than a brace that goes from the trailer (or roller) to the
    >lower unit of the motor.  Should cost ~$20 - $30.
    
    I've seen these in Bass Pro's Marine Catalog.  I don't think the rear
    of my trailer goes back far enough that a transom saver could hold my
    lower unit up high enough to make a difference.  In otherwords, if you
    draw a straight line from the rear brace of my trailer to the lower
    unit of my motor in it's raised position, the bottom of the boat's transom 
    is in the way.  
    
    Do most people trailer with the motor up or down?  If down, how much
    clearance do you have between the bottom of the skeg and the ground? 
    If up, does everyone use one of these transom savers? 
    
    As an aside, how do you get a transom saver on the rear roller if the
    boat is on the rear roller??   If you use one that attaches to the
    trailer, what do you do with it when launching the boat?
     
    Lots of questions,
    
    -Stevie D

    	I'm going to have to defer to someone who uses one.  I've got a 
    15' Whaler w/70 Johnson.  I do what my manual tells me.  I raise the
    motor all the way, flip the latch into place, and trim the motor back
    down until the power trim is putting pressure on it.  Won't help you
    much without power trim though....
    	You may have better luck asking these questions in one of the
    fishing notesfiles where more of the members may have run into the same
    problem with similar sized boats and motors.
    
    						B.C.

    
    May be slightly makeshift.
    
    Put a board between the mount and the engine. Similar to what you
    had done. Put a bungie cord from the lower unit to the trailer,
    or maybe 2 of them, these should stop the bouncing.
    
    If the engine tilts to one side it shouldn't cause any problem
    maybe even set it that way to trailer.
    
    The above may cost about 5 bucks............
    
    Better still, use a longer bungie cord, attach one end to the 
    trailer, go under the cavitation plate and back to the trailer.
    Now both hooks will be on the trailer.
    
    JIm

    
      Indeed, 6" is far topo close to the ground, you will surely damage
    the skeg if you trailer with the motor down. Jim's method with wood and
    bungee cords will work fine. You should set the motor to one side or
    the other so it will not 'flop' by itself. Once there, it should not
    move if it is tilted up.
      I am also one of the luckier ones with a 'trailering' latch for full
    up position on my 100 Evinrude.
    
    				Kenny

    Maybe I can offer some help here.  I do use the transom support and it
    works great.  Mine, and I assume all, are removable.  Hard for me to
    explain but it uses a pin with a locking clip.  Two seconds and it is
    on or off, once initially installed of course.  Someone mentioned 2x4's
    and bungie cords.  I tried it all and had no success.  No matter how
    well I tied my lower end to the trailer I always had some bounce and
    before I knew it my motor was bouncing up and down.  Not a healthy
    situation at all.  Let me know if you need more info.
    
    Wayne

  I foolishly followed the suggestion of the dealer about which "transom saver"
to purchase.  This one slid over the rear roller at one end and used one of the
black rubber straps with the 'S' hooks to hold the motor in the 'V' at the
other end.  I hadn't had this rig more than a couple months when the strap
broke and flopped my motor down.  I had the drive mechanism in Neutral so when
the engine dropped it locked down.  You have 6" clearance on your skeg, mine
had 0" clearance.  I figure I ground off about 1/2" of my skeg before I noticed
the problem and could stop.  Since then I trailer the boat with the engine up
using the tilt-lock to hold it.  I use a bungie cord to suppliment the spring
on the tilt-lock.  If I were to go back to using the transom-saver I'd be sure
to double up on the straps and get one that is pinned to the trailer.

Al

    Thanks for all the advice, guys.

    I think I understand pretty well what a transom saver is now and how
    it works.  I definately need *something* to hold my motor up.  Thanks 
    for the warning about the strap!  That's a point well taken.

    I'll first try and see if I can move my winch support far enough forward 
    to allow the end of my bunks to be even with the bottom of the transom.  
    That would allow me to use a transom saver.  I don't know if the trailer 
    is long enough for that though.

    If not, I'll try a wood block under the motor and a bungee cord to the
    trailer to keep it from bouncing.  If I wanted to get creative, I might
    even fashon a psuedo transom saver that would go between the bottom of
    the motor and the drain pipe at the bottom of my transom.  I'd still
    need to run a bungee cord around the motor and to the trailer.
    
    I'll let you know when I figure out the perfect solution...   8-)

    -Stevie D

    
    
    	just a slight deviation: 
    
    to stop the motor swinging side to side i put in an eyelet 
    below the steering wheel on the floor,
    place motor in straight ahead position
    and use an ocky strap from the wheel to the eyelet.
    
    thats the best way ive found to stop the motor slapping 
    from side to side.
    
    the other reg
    

    I don't remember how big you said your boat was, but don't screw up
    your tongue weight on your hitch by moving the boat too far forward
    on the trailer.  You could end up with a bigger problem than the one
    you already have.
    Wayne

    The boat is 14'.  This morning I got out the old tape measure and found
    I would have to move the winch support forward about 7" on the trailer to 
    make the bottom of the boat's transom even with the back of the bunks.  
    Seems reasonable enough, and I'll give it a try this weekend.
    
    Your point is well taken though, and I'll make sure the tongue weight
    of the trailer doesn't increase too much.
    
    -Stevie D

    You asked what others do.  I trail my 17' boat with 25 hp outboard with
    the engine DOWN.  But I don't have the clearance problem you do.  I
    can see that lever action of a tilted engine working away at the
    transom, thus the decison to trail with it down.  Also any following
    traffic (on the road) is more likely to run into the hard to see
    skeg pointed at them than with the engine tilted down. 
    
    Jeff

    
    Is it necessary to support an I/O outdrive the same way you guys are
    talking about supporting an outboard?  I have seen suppport brackets
    advertised for this purpose but was unsure if it was just another
    gimmic (sp?).  By the way, I'm talking about a Mercruser I/O that
    obviously has power trim (tilt).  Been going without a support bracket
    for years.
    
    Matt 

    If you don't support the i/o on long trips the vibration load on the 	
    hydrolic lifts will shorten the life of the o rings in the shaft seals
    this also takes the load of the whole system so you blow won't blow a
    shaft seal on a rough road.If you are a careful driver and don't bounce
    you shouldn't need them for short hauls.

    Matt - The situation with trailering an outdrive is totally different
    that with an outboard. An outboard has ALL of its weight along the top
    of the transom cutout. An I/O has almost all of its weight distributed
    along the main hull stringers. The outdrive portion of an I/O doesn't
    have that much weight (compared to a fair sized OB) and it is directly
    connected to the engine as well, helping to distribute most of it's
    weight there where it can be best dealt with.
      Also, there is no problem at all with the hydraulic system. The
    amount of force needed to hold the drive unit tipped up is miniscule
    compared with the amount of force the rams are capable of. (just compare
    the force required to hold the weight of the outdrive up to the force
    required to hold it in trim with the boat at full power). The only
    thing that *can* happen is if the check valve is not perfect or gets a
    tiny bit of dirt on it, the outdrive may slowly tilt back down (it can
    take hours or even days depending on the severity). There are plastic
    tubes you can buy to slip over the rams so that if the outdrive did
    start to tip back down they would stop it.
    
    	Bottom line is: No problem at all trailering an I/O boat.
    
    				Kenny

Hi,

 I have a question on trailering a med. size boat/trailer (19ft
Cuddy I/O on an Easyloader trailer). The boat and trailer are
about 2,000 to 2,300 lbs all together. Now the question.... can
this be pulled by anything other than a truck ? A friend of mine
has used his Toyota P/U to pull his (same size boat/trailer). I am
wondering if it could be pulled by a Audi 5000 turbo w/auto trans
or a Mustang GT std trans (second choice)? I know the suspension &
frame are different in the truck vs the car, but the Audi definitely
has the power advantage. Seeing the tongue weight isn't all that much,
(can be lifted by one person with not too much difficulty), would
the car be able to handle the stress of towing ?

Thanks
  Mg
    

The only reason trucks come into the towing picture is that they are
typically built with excess capacity, but this is highly variable, even
with trucks.  My Ford Explorer lists towing capacities from as low as
1600 lbs all the way to 5500 lbs!  Depends on transmission, axle ratio,
and various other options.

In general there will also be a broad range associated with cars, but your
case is close to class I (2000 lbs) which many cars can do.  But like I said
it's so variable you gotta check the owners manual or the dealer.

re: .176
Well, I'll start off by saying that my reply will probably be different
from others that you may see here.  If I'm going to make an error, I try
to make it on the side of being too conservative.

First you have to look at your towed weight realistically.  I've never 
seen a 19' cuddy with I/O that weighs less than 3000 pounds on the trailer.
I know, because I researched this a few years ago, and it's the reason I 
ended up with a 17' cuddy.  Add in fuel and gear and you're looking at a 
towed weight of 3300, not 2300.  Do you know FOR SURE that this rig only 
weighs 2300?

If the weight is closer to 2000, either the Toyota pickup of the GT should
tow the boat fairly safely.  I don't know about the Audi, most "turbo"
vehicles are either not recommended for towing or are limited to 1000 pounds.
The turbo will be constantly in the boost range, causing overheating and
excessive wear.  The Toyota and the Mustang GT will probably experience 
excessive clutch wear and/or early failure if you do a lot of towing, 
particularly launching and retrieving.  Brakes will also wear more quickly.
The GT may also have problems with unibody flexing unless you use a top 
quality hitch that's rated for your load.

If the boat is closer to 3300 pounds as I suspect, IMHO none of your vehicles
are really up to the task.  Frames (or lack thereof), tires, brakes, clutches
and transmissions will all be overloaded.  The one possible exception is the 
Toyota pickup, *if* it is the 1-ton that was rated at about 3500 pound towing 
capacity. Since you didn't mention that it has this feature, I ass-u-me that
it doesn't.

This doesn't mean you're going to have immediate mechanical failures or get 
into an accident.  You're not in much (if any) danger of running into problems
with the law or your insurance. But at 3300 pounds you're going to be border-
line in almost category of safety and mechanical longevity.  I've seen some 
pretty amazing tow rigs going down the road, when it comes to overloads so I 
know that it CAN be done.  In most cases, when you get up near 3000 pounds, 
you're talking full-size car or light truck category.  It's up to you.

Rick

    One thing you did not mention is whether the trailer has brakes or not.
    I have a 21' bowrider and it weighs closer to 3500 lbs, particularly
    when it is full of gas. People often look only at the weight of the
    boat and forget the trailer. My boat weighs about 2600 lbs WITHOUT the
    trailer. So I would agree with Rick that yours is alot closer to 3000+
    than it would be to 2000.
    Most cars seem to have much lower towing ratings than you would think
    when you just think about engine power. If your trailer does not have
    brakes then lighter weight cars are going to be a problem if you ever
    really have to stop quickly. You can be as careful as possible but at
    some time you are going to need a panic stop. I tow my boat with a
    full-sized 4WD pickup. My trailer does not have brakes and most of the
    time I do not even feel a stopping difference with the truck. Twice,
    however, I have had to stop very quickly and then I COULD feel the
    difference of 3500lbs pushing me. We stopped within the distance I
    needed to, but I was glad I had the truck and not a car. 
    
    Over 3000 lbs, and maybe less with no brakes, you are, as Rick said, in
    truck or full-sized car land.
    
    Larry

    
    Gee, everyone already stated what I would have said...
    
    Ditto on not using a turbocharged vehicle to tow with. The heat would
    unquestionably be too extreme, even equipped with an intercooler.
    
    I know I've mentioned this somewhere.... but if you're really in
    doubt about the weight of your rig... I've used the scale at the
    local landfill (Nashua) to weigh my boat/trailer successfully.
    A similar trip would let you know for sure what your rig weighs.
    I find 2300 lbs kind of light for a 19ft cuddy on a trailer.
    
    If your rig really is closer (or over) 3000 lbs then you are
    definately in Buick Roadmaster or truck territory. Some popular
    tow vehicles for this amount of weight are most pickups, SUVs 
    (Cherokees, Blazers, Broncos), vans (Chevy Astro, is the Aerostar
    still RWD?).
    
    1st question.... are any of the ramps you plan to use "rustic",
    will you need 4 wheel drive anyway?
    
    Rick
    
    Best bet... do just what you are doing, that is; Ask around...

    
    	I guess it's time I put in a trailering report using the 
    "New" Dakota.
    
    	Previously, I towed my 3400 lbs of Nautique and trailer with
    a 3.9l V6, 5 speed Dakota. This setup was quite sufficient, but
    long steep hills on the highway required forethought and usually
    4th gear. The more severe hills might even require the use of 3rd
    gear.
    
    	The 1987 Dakota was just replaced by a 1992 Dakota which sports
    Dodge's 5.2l (318 ci) Magnum V8 and a 4 speed automatic transmission.
    (not to mention, about every option in the book :-) ) Towing the
    Nautique with this truck is like night and day comparison to the '87.
    The overabundance of beef this truck has w/o the trailer compensates
    well when there is 3400 lbs in tow. I barely know the boat is back
    there at most speeds including braking.
    
    	My gas mileage has gone from 20 mpg to 17 mpg highway from the six
    to the eight. All bets are, of course, off on gas mileage with the boat
    in tow! :-)
    
    Rick 

    RE:-a few
    
     I just looked it up and the boat is 1995lbs with the motor and
    the trailer is rated for 2400 lbs. That's why I said about 2300lbs,
    maybe more if the thing was loaded with stuff.... BTW the trailer
    doesn't have any brakes. 
     The truck I mentioned isn't mine, but a friends. He has the same
    size boat I do. I've been borrowing a friends full sixe Chevy pickup 
    to pull mine and so I need a tow vehical of my own. I've been thinking 
    of buying a new Mustang GT and I have an Audi 5000 turbo now. I don't 
    think I would be towing it more than a few times a year since I have 
    a place to leave it in the water for the summer. 
     From the way it sounds (from the responses), the GT, having no real
    frame, might not like the abuse and the turbo on the Audi won't like
    towing much either. BTW the Audi does have some sort of turbo cooler.
    So not much of a choice.....looks like i'll have to buy a cheap truck
    to tow with.
    
    Thanks for the replies,
            Mg

    
      Ok, watch this.... 2K pounds for the boat. How much fuel? Must be at
    least 30 gallons @ maybe 6 per, there's another 180-200 at least. Then
    there's gear. Add a couple hundred for that. The trailer itself must
    weigh at least 400. So as you can see....
    
    Boat - 	2000
    Fuel - 	 200  (If around 35 gallons)
    Gear - 	 200
    Trailer - 	 400
    Etc.	 ???  (I think my estimates could easily be on the low side
    			AND how about stuff I'm sure I didn't think of?)
    		-----
    		2800  minimum towed weight the way I see it.
    
    	Check the owner's manuals of those cars, but I tend to think that
    the others will be right and you'll be over on both of them. It is
    almost NEVER how much power a vehicle has. The points to worry about
    are frame strength, brakes, tires, and suspension and also the weight
    of the vehicle. (It starts to get dicey almost no matter what you are
    towing with when the towed vehicle weighs more than the towing vehicle!
    It gets to be who is controlling who!)
    
    				Kenny

    Geez, there isn't much left to add, everything that had been said is
    right on the mark. 
    
    It's probably safe to assume that the skiing clan in this file tow
    their boats (#3200-3400) as much as anyone. The boats get used during 
    the week and weekends. Everyone of them, that I can think of, now uses a 
    full-size 4 x 4 tow vehicle with a V8. If you're not going to pull your 
    toy very often then you can get by without a fullsize truck as long as 
    you stay within the tow rating of the vehicle, but having towed with small
    trucks, mid-size cars, and now a fullsize Blazer, I don't think I would
    be happy with anything but a fullsize. Even little things like having
    *real* side view mirrors make a difference during those long rides
    home.
    
    The price tag on the boat is only a *fraction* of the ownership costs.
    :^)
    
    ~jeff
         

7.182 
>> I just looked it up and the boat is 1995lbs with the motor 

What brand and model of boat is this?  As I said earlier, I've never seen
a true 19' I/O powered cuddy that was under 3000 lbs including the trailer.
A Galaxy perhaps? (no offense...). Four cylinder I/O's alone are around 900 
pounds, V6 or V8's are closer to 1100.  That doesn't leave much for room for
the weight of the hull, battery, etc...   We can speculate all day, have it 
weighed if you want to know for sure.  

>> the trailer is rated for 2400 lbs. That's why I said about 2300lbs,

Of course, the trailer rating means nothing. Dealers are notorious for
providing the wrong trailer.  Usually you want a 10% cushion on the load
rating of the trailer.  Even if the boat is only 1995 pounds, with fuel
and gear you have very little cushion.

>> the GT, having no real frame, might not like the abuse 

True, but I'd be more concerned about the clutch and brakes.  Getting stuck 
at the launch ramp just once can literally fry the clutch on you.  And most 
of us have seen how GT's do under poor traction conditions (REAL BAD!). What's
the tow rating of a GT?  My guess is 1000, or maybe 2000 max.

>> BTW the Audi does have some sort of turbo cooler.

That doesn't really help much.  The intercooler helps cool the incoming
charge from the turbo. But the turbo itself will be working overtime and 
glowing red, and under constant boost the cylinders will have much higher 
pressure than you want for long periods of time.

>> So not much of a choice.....looks like i'll have to buy a cheap truck
>> to tow with.
   
Sounds like a plan.  Either an old pickup or an old V8 powered full sized car
can be had pretty cheap.  The initial investment of the 3rd vehicle for towing
should be recovered due to fewer major failures in the GT or the Audi.

Rick  

    
    	A few comments about a beater as a tow vehicle.....
    
    	There's not a damn thing wrong with the idea, if the 
    distance and frequency of towed miles is relatively low.
    
    	As Jeff mentioned, the skiing crowd (which I guess I can be
    considered part of.. haha) generally tows a significant number of
    miles each year. This was the number one argument against buying
    a beater truck and a new car for me. I opted for the new truck.
    
    	Don't forget that full-size cars will perform the same job
    as a full-size 2WD truck (sort of) And the best set up I've seen
    yet involved a 19 or so foot cuddy towed by a mid-70s Eldorado
    Convertible.... Cool!
    
    Rick

     Well I guess that settles it.... a big old V8 truck. Doesn't seem like
    I'll get out of this cheaply. Hopefully I can find one under 1000. At 
    least I have till spring to find one.
     As far as the trailer load limit goes, the weight of the boat and
    fuel + a little extra, would bring this right up to the weight rating
    of the trailer. I guess the dealer gives you just enought to squeak by.
    I should definitly get a class II hitch then.
     I'm glad I didn't run out and by a hitch right away. Would have been
    a waste of money. Thanks for all the Info.
     
    Mark
    
    BTW Rick, the boat is an Bayliner w/a 4 cyl 125 Volvo. I've had nothing
    but fun with this boat since I had it. Not a one problem a few new
    screws couldn't fix. I up-graded from a 14' Chrysler w/85 hp OB. The 
    Chrysler is VERY fast....but not big enough. 

re: .-2

The biggest boat I ever saw under tow (i.e., on a conventional boat 
trailer - doesn't include special purpose boat hauling stuff) was a 
27'or so express cruiser being towed also by...

Some huge not-so-recent Cadillac!

    re title of .186
    
    	Sometimes  the Beautifully Butch Blue 'burb
    
    	is the  ONLY  thing that qualifies
    
    
    	R {klattermoter own_ah}
    

    re .185  Have it weighed.
    
    How, where?  Truck scales on the highway are usually closed and not
    open for public use anyway, right?
    
    Jeff
    

    I have towed with 2WD and 4 WD vehicles over a period of years.  I have
    found that the situation I most often got into trouble in was with a
    2 wheel drive vehicle on a ramp, typically this would be at low tide
    with a slippery ramp.  Sometimes the 2WD simply couldn't get enough
    traction to pull the boat out even if the weights of boat/trailer vs.
    vehicle were appropriatly matched.  Sometimes due to 'chocking effects'
    at a lousy ramp a few stones or concrete step was all it took to keep
    the 2 WD from gaining enough traction to get the boat out.  Of course
    this would all happen on an incoming tide, late in the day with a line
    of IMPATIENT people waiting their turn. (Getting stuck usually resulted
    in someone throwing me a tow line and getting me out of it).  The OTHER
    issue with 2 WD even if the vehicle has adequate traction on a ramp is
    the lack of a low enough gear to avoid excess slipping of the clutch to
    get rolling up the ramp.  Sometimes the wheel slip was an advantage 
    because it allowed the engine to come up to speed via wheel slip
    without beating on the clutch TOO much, of course then its touch and
    go as to whether your going to go up the ramp or simply sit there and
    spin.
    
    A 4 WD avoids both problems, you have low enough gearing to take your
    time and pull the boat trailer up over the concrete steps, stones and
    other ramp crud without bouncing the boat and trailer 3 feet in the air
    getting up enough speed to avoid getting stuck.  Also you don't GET stuck
    unless conditons are REALLY severe.
    
    A typical ramp at Squam Lake has the ramp pads slip each year so the
    only way to get the boat out is to pull the trailer wheels up over 6 to
    8 inch steps.... try THIS with a 2 WD!
    
    All my above experiences are with boats in the 2000, 2500 lb range not
    even a heavy boat.
    
    Jeff

    re: .190
    Some landfills, and almost all sand and gravel companies should
    have scales.
    
    What it'd cost I don't know...
    
    Rick

    
    
    	I think the Nashua landfill charged me ~ 4 bucks to weigh my
    truck/trailer/boat. All I had to do was subtract the previously
    known weight of the truck.
    
    Rick

    Thanks for the info, maybe the Salem, N.H. Landfill can weigh me.
    
    Jeff

    
    	Well, I got the 'burb weighed for free one time.   Just dropped in
    at Kane's Concrete in Hudson, Mass.  Parked on their scale and walked
    in the office to ask how much pebblestone was.  Got the info I dodn't
    really want ans as I was leaving just casually asked what it weighed, I
    think he said about 2300 lbs a yard, I said,  "No, the wagon"  and he
    read off 6003  - -  well, that included my patiently waiting wife (-:
    
    	Reg
    

    Saw an ad in the classifed notes file this a.m. for a used cop car with a 
    Ford 305 v8...these have heavy duty everything, perfect for towing, cheap 
    to buy, easy to fix.  Drawback...not 4wd.
    
    Carl

    If the launch ramp is busy, you can turn on the flashing lights and
    everyone would move aside.
    Wayne

re: .196
As Dan Ackroyd would say, "it's got a cop motor, cop tires, cop brakes,
cop shocks..."   8^)

But there *is* one disadvantage to buying a used cop car for towing if 
it was originally a highway patrol or state police car.  They usually 
have a fairly tall rearend gear for high speed driving, somewhere in the 
range of 2.50:1 or 2.75:1.  Those gears are great for going fast, but 
3.25's or 3.50's are usually better for towing. Especially if the towed 
load is around 2000 lbs or more.

The good news is that if everything else about the car makes it worth 
buying, swapping a rearend chuck or a complete rearend for one with a 
better towing ratio is no big deal.  Just be sure to get the speedo 
drive gear from the tranny of the car the rearend is robbed from.

Rick

    And if it's a towny cop car, I'd guess it has a "normal" rear-end?
    
    Carl

    RE. -1 Wouldn't a "townie" rear end be to wide ! :^)
    
    I couldn't help it.
    Walt

re: >> RE. -1 Wouldn't a "townie" rear end be to wide ! :^)
    
Could be a little too wide.  But at least it would have the proper
ratio for hauling heavy loads.   8^)

Rick

I've read the previous comments on FWD vehicles.  I'm curious to see if, other
than the ramp issues, does anyone have comments on pulling?  While my 4WD
Bronco II does a nice job at the ramp, it's not great when I have to load
the family!

details:

- boat/trailer=2500 lbs

- Caravan is 3.3L auto with OD, P205 tires, HD suspension.  While the
  towing package was not installed, apparently these two options are
  part of the complete package (missing: oil cooler, HD battery, harness, etc)


I think I'll be ok.  Minimal towing and when I do, it's all highway.  Minimal
hills.


Hoping to get some comments from Caravan/Voyager folks!

thx,

/Chris

re                      <<< Note 7.202 by MIZZEN::DEMERS >>>
>                     -< Any additional Caravan comments? >-

> I've read the previous comments on FWD vehicles.  I'm curious to see if, other
> than the ramp issues, does anyone have comments on pulling?  While my 4WD

	I think the ramp issue can be solved - FWD is no worse than 
RWD if you put a front bumper ("spotting") hitch on it and turn around 
- to face the trailer (-:   This makes the boat trailer a lot easier
to position and gets a lot of the weight over the driving wheels.  
They're near (in ?) the water, but it probably works better than a 2wd 
truck with no ballast in the back.

	One thing I found with the 'burb was that things could get 
VERY unstable in high cross winds if I didn't have enough weight in 
the back of the car.  The caravan may be a similar case - fairly high 
and square with most of its mechanical mass up front.  Don't confuse 
hitch weight with "in the vehicle" weight (-:


>   - boat/trailer=2500 lbs

	They may warn against anything over 2,000 lbs  WITH gas, oil, 
gear, battery, etc.

- Caravan is 3.3L auto with OD, P205 tires, HD suspension.  While the
  towing package was not installed, apparently these two options are
  part of the complete package (missing: oil cooler, HD battery, harness, etc)

	I don't think the  "HD battery"  does anything for trailering, 
the engine isn't any harder to start, so unless you want to park with 
the lights on - including the additional lights on the trailer ??
 
> I think I'll be  ok.  Minimal towing and when I do, it's all highway.  Minimal
> hills.

You might want to keep it out of overdrive if you DO get into hilly 
country with the boat and trailer.
Also, I change my transmission fluid and filtre annually - this is a 
bit controversial in the 4wd notes conference - FWIW, etc.

	Just watch out for side winds - ESPECIALLY ON the highway at 
speed - side drafts from 18 wheelers can be scary too, like when you 
go under a bridge or overpass together )-:

> Hoping to get some comments from Caravan/Voyager folks!

> thx,

> /Chris

	Reg

    I second the notion of staying out of overdrive...
    
    I pull a fairly heavy Grady White (small, but in 1976 they still used
    alot of glass...) with my S-10 Blazer.  The truck has a 4.3ltr V6 with
    an optional high performance package, giving it 200hp.  When I'm on the
    highway (even fairly level terrain) my trans. will shift between drive
    and overdrive VERY frequently...which I'm sure would take a serious
    toll on the torque converter and a lot of other things with any
    prolonged use.  I keep it in "D", figuring I'd rather suffer the
    mileage than a new transmission.
    
    
    Jim
    

    Actually, by keeping the engine revs nearer to the peak
    torque/horsepower range in drive, you are probably getting better MPG
    than if you were in OD and running at a lower RPM.  Same reason why
    high numerical rear end gear ratios will improve MPG when towing even
    though the engine is turning over much faster.
    Wayne

    Through the magic of re-financing I found a late model S15 4dr Jimmy in
    my driveway a few months back. Now that I've had the chance to tow the
    boat with it a few times I thought I'd update my last entry (.184).
    
    The Jimmy does a real nice job of hauling a #3200 ski boat around. It
    has the enhanced 4.3L Vortec V6 (200 hp, 260 ft-lbs torque) with
    factory tranny and oil coolers. Factory tow rating is #4500. It has
    *no* problem keeping up with the flow of traffic. The combination of
    anti-lock brakes on the truck with surge brakes on the trailer helps
    manage the extra weight out back. Overall, I'm very pleased and would
    say that the Jimmy does a better job than my old '84 f/s Blazer w/305
    V8. Now if I were pulling #4500 on a regular basis I would probably opt
    for an F-150 extended cab, or maybe a Bronco. I would still go with a
    full-size for the big loads.
    
    ~jeff

    
    moved by moderator
    ------------------
    
              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1059.0                transmission info on towing                No replies
CFSCTC::ROWE                                         12 lines  25-MAY-1993 13:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Please move this to its proper place if indeed there is
	one.

	I've got a question in regards to towing. I've got a s-10
	blazer 4x4 with a manual transmission. I'm wondering if I
	should change the tranny fluid before towing a 16' boat
	to Maine. I'm anticipating on only towing the boat twice
	a year. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

	thanks
	-tom-

    Tom- Manual transmissions are much more tolerant of heavy loads than
    automatics. Towing a light-ish boat a couple of times a year should be
    no problem, provided you don't have any problems to start with. If you
    tow a LOT (like every week), you need to change the tranny oil on the
    'heavy use' schedule. That's about it.
    
    					Kenny

re .208:

>>> Manual transmissions are much more tolerant of heavy loads than
>>> automatics. 

But clutches may not be. I replaced about four in 120,000 miles of 
non-towing driving of a Ford E300 van with a 3-speed manual 
transmission. 

    
     Towing does not hurt a clutch at all. Now if its worn and/or a person
    rides or uses it a LOT, then it will likely wear out faster. Of course,
    there's nothing to do to help a clutch other than make sure its
    adjusted properly (if it is adjustable at all). When it wears out, you
    put in a new one, perhaps of a heavier duty. My clutch is still
    original at 125K miles.
    
    				Kenny

	Roughly within the next week, I'll be launching my
	16' boat in the ocean off the coast of Maine. The
	question I have is the following. 

	Would it be worth the expense to have the marina lower
	the boat into the water for a cost of $60 compared to
	launching the boat myself? My main concern is the salt
	water corrosion effect on the trailer. Will flushing the trailer
	a short time after launching the boat be sufficient in
	preventing corrosion? What state will the wheel bearings
	be in if they were properly greased?

	Would Appreciate any opinions here.

	thanks
	-tom-

    If you have "Bearing Buddies" and they are properly greased (under
    pressure) and you wait a while after you arrive for them to cool 
    down and they you hit them with a bit more grease, you should not
    get any water (fresh or salt) in your bearings. Are your lights
    of the waterproof variety? If so and they are unplugged, they should be
    o.k. But hose everything down asap.
    
    Bill
    

    $60 to put your boat in the water?  Ouch.  With the money saved
    from only about 7 or 8 launches you could buy a new trailer.
    
    It all depends on whether your present trailer is equipped to 
    handle salt.  If it's galvanized, no problem.  If you've got a
    real nice painted trailer, like the ones you see under new bass
    boats, the decision's a little harder.
    
    Is this a one time deal, or will you be paying $60 on a regular
    basis to have the boat launched?
    
    Rick

    I agree, hose the trailer down.  I have a 20 year old all steel (non
    galvanized) painted trailer which I use is salt water often.  I have
    bearing buddies and I hose the trailer down after salt water use.  With
    repainting every couple of years the trailer has held up well.  Like
    anything else its the neglected trailers which have been used in salt
    water that look like New England autos after a few years.... all
    rusted.
    
    60 BUCKS!  Geez, launch it yourself.
    
    Jeff

    It all depends on whether your present trailer is equipped to 
    handle salt.  If it's galvanized, no problem.  If you've got a
    real nice painted trailer, like the ones you see under new bass
    boats, the decision's a little harder.

> Rick, I believe the trailer is galvanized, its definitely not painted.
> The brand name of the trailer is a "load rite". This boat and trailer
> has never seen salt water previously. How can you make certain that
> the bearings are properly greased?
    
    Is this a one time deal, or will you be paying $60 on a regular
    basis to have the boat launched?

> Actually it will be a 2 time deal. Once to launch it for the season,
> and the other to take it out after the season is over. It will cost
> $60 a whack reguardless of launching it, or taking it out. I'm
> leaning on doing it myself, but haven't quite made up my mind just
> yet.

	-tom-

    
      Regardless if you launch the boat from your trailer or not, the
    bearings NEED to be taken care of! If you get a set of bearing buddies
    (About 12-15 bucks depending on where you get them) you'll NEVER have
    to worry about your bearings as long as you keep them properly greased.
    
      If you are wondering if the bearings are properly greased, then
    you've never done anything to them. I don't know if this is a new
    trailer or not, but it really doesn't make any difference. Do yourself
    a favor and get bearing buddies. (They just go on in place of the wheel
    bearing dust caps.)
    
    				Kenny

	
	I've been told that Bearing Buddies don't provide grease to the inner
	bearing and that they need to be greased regularly. Is this true?

	Craig

    Mine push grease out past the inner bearings all the time.
    
    Bill
    

    The buddies DO provide grease to the inner bearings.
    
    I can't keep my seals tight.  I have replaced the inner seal a number
    of times, crocus clothed the shaft where the inner seal runs against it
    etc. etc.  it still leaks grease.  Can't seem to stop it. Both wheels
    do it.  "do you have the right seals"?  They are the seals that come
    with the bearing rebuild kit for my brand trailer.
    
    The buddies do provide a grease nipple that makes greasing the bearings
    a snap!
    
    I grease them after every launch. Just enough to put the springs under
    tension again, (on the bearing buddies).
    
    Jeff

    Sorry, I didn't have time to finish .218 yesterday.
    
    With Bearing Buddies, if your hub is properly (completely) filled with 
    grease, then the inner bearings will be taken care of. I have found
    that when I do my annual (or biennial) bearing change, it takes a lot
    of grease to fill the hub and a few miles to get all the air out.
    I just keep adding more grease till the air's all gone.
    
    Re .219 adding grease after every launch - I add grease to make sure
    they are pressurized just before I back down the last few feet of the
    ramp into the water. Only takes a few seconds, but I want to be sure
    they are full and the spring is compressed before I get them wet.
    
    I have never found any signs of water getting into my bearings or
    hubs. No milky grease, never any bearing rust. I have been trailering
    for 9 years now, so I am a great believer in Bearing Buddies.
    I do throw quite a bit 
    of grease from the seals onto the inner side of the wheels, but it
    doesn't seem to ever get on the boat.

    On those steel trailers, the problem can be rust on the inside of the
    square stock.  I had a utility trailor made from a snowmobile trailer,
    and the tongue bent with only moderate weight load due to internal
    rust.  I don't know how you would check for this easily...
    
    Carl

    Good point. I will have to try and check down into the middle of the
    square stock.
    
    Bearing buddies:  Good idea, will have to add grease just before launch
    rather than later when I get home.
    
    Jeff

    I've read the notes from 93' and none earlier.
    So maybe someone in the know can help me.
    
    I've searched for a new 4WD vehicle and want it capable of towing 
    our "next boat" whenever that may be?
    
    I am currently towing my 19' SeaNymph Alum boat aprox 1,800# loaded
    with my 88' Grand Prix SE FWD.  It's been ok except on steep ramps
    
    We have narrowed our decision down to the Jeep Grand Cherokee (V8)
    or the Toyota 4Runner (V6).  We did not evaluate Bronco's or Blazer's.
    We did look at Ford Explorer's as they have been a hot seller this past
    year.  We need 4 doors for the kids etc.
    
    So far we are pretty set on the Jeep.  Both run around same $$$.
    Jeep 	+ V8 tow's 6,500#	Toyota   - V6 tow's 2,500#
    		+ Ride/handling			 - Ride/handling
    		- Min body style                 + Better style
    		- Spare inside			 + Spare under 
    Other stuff they are both about the same.
    
    Any suggestions comments?  Fortunaetly we are not in a hurry so are
    still lookin.  But my wife is driving an 86' Chevy Corolla ;^) with
    230K miles on it....No trailer hitch ;^)
    
    Dick aka -< Tuna Tail >-
    

    
    re: Dick
    
    	I'd say that if you feel that both the Grand Cherokee and the
    4Runner are pretty much the same that the gaining factor would be
    towing capacity. Get out your crystal ball.... Any ideas about what
    the "next boat" will be? If it will be similar to your current rig
    then I'd say that either truck will suffice. Gee the 4Runner is only
    rated 2500, I would have guess more than that... But, if your "next
    boat" will be in the 3000+ total weight department you might want to
    opt for a V8.
    
    	The difference in towing from my '87 Dakota 3.9l V6 to my '92
    Dakota 5.2l V8 is like night and day. No agonizing up long, steep
    hills anymore. No need for *MILES* of space to enter into traffic.
    Don't get me wrong, though because there are plenty of V6s in this
    file alone that tow 3500 lbs of ski boat and they do quite a good
    job, but the *extra* power really comes in handy when I need it.
    
    Rick
    
    ps. Minimum style to the Jeep? All in the eye of the beholder, huh?

    Rick,
    	Appreciate your input.
    	As far a the next boat...Most likely in the 22'-25' range
    	fiberglass Grady White/4 Winns/Mako??? 
    	Cuddy Cabin/sleeps 4+/head/shower/stove/MWoven etc etc.
    	Of course TV with minature Satalite (sp?) dish ;^) (my wifes list)
    	I want live bait wells/flying bridge/outriggers/catwalk/radar/
    	two fighting chairs and of course a winch to haul in TUNA etc.
    
    	I'm trying to pay off the current boat then the upcoming truck
    	before worrying/planning on boat upgrade.
    
    	I also feel with the Jeep V8 that when towing the lighter boat the
    	engine/tran's is not being taxed as much.  Same when we go to
    	bigger/heavier boat.  Sure V6 may haul it ok but it will do so
    	at it's near peak capacity.  I also may tow it long distances like
    	interstate.
    
    	Thanks
    	dick

    I'd go with the v8.  Wouldn't even consider the v6s.
    
    I think the new Grand Cherokees are awesome looking.
    
    Rick.  I also have an 87 Dakota with the 3.9 v6, 2wd.  Towed the
    14.5' no problem, under 1000lbs.  However, towing the 19' around
    2500lbs is another story.  You ain't kidding about how long it
    takes to get up to speed or how easily you loose momentum going
    up the slightest of grades.
    
    The 80 Olds Delta 88 with the 307 v8 is our primary boat tower.
    I have not towed the 19' boat with this car yet.  We hope to
    replace it with a slightly newer wagon (mid 80s).  The wagon will
    preferably have a 307 or a 350 v8 (if GM), a 302 or 351 (if Ford),
    a 318 or 360 (if Chrysler)...
    
    You'll be saying "I could have had a v8" if you don;t get one...
    
    Mark

    Dick, in my mind, the type of boat you just described has put the
    Toyota V6 out of the running.  That's a helluva lot more weight than
    the aluminum boat.  When I went from a 16' aluminum bassboat to a 20'
    Ranger, after 130K+ virtually maintenance free miles, my beloved Toyota 
    4x4 finally fessed up to being a toy.  Granted it was only a 4cyl, but 
    that boat felt WAY too big back there, regardless of the HP limitation 
    of the motor.  
    
    I'm a big toyota fan, but to *frequently* tow a boat the size of the 
    ones your eyeballing, I'd go with something alot beefier, in both HP 
    and mass. 
    
    -donmac

    Dick,
    
     If you are really thinkin of a 22-25 foot glass cuddy then get
    a REAL truck not a sport utility vehicle. You want a 1/2 ton
    chassis or better a 3/4 ton. My 85 full size blazer w/ 305 V8
    was just enough for my 21' chris craft which loaded was over
    5000lbs. My new CK blazer with 350 V8 is rated for 8000lbs.
    
    Bruce

    RE: last 3
    
    	Really appreciate you taking the time to help me.
    	Most likely we will get the GC V8 as that's what most
    	of you's are recommending.  And also it's the one my
    	wife likes the best ;^)
    	Now all I need is to figure out how to pay for this baby 8^0
    
    	In the event we decide to get a bigger boat we may size it
    	according to he GC V8's towing ability.  Most of the time it 
    	will be used for a family vehicle so going to a big truck was
    	not considered.  By the time we go to bigger boat my car will 
    	need replacing :-(    
    
    	Does this cycle ever end???
    	Dick aka -< Tuna Tail >-

Dick,

I tow about 3200lbs. with my 6cyl 4.0L Jeep. I have no complaints. I'm sure the
V8 would be even better when towing (it wasn't available when I got mine),
but the dealer tells me that I would have paid for it in gas mileage all 
the [non-towing] time.

Dave

    Dave,
    	Awesome...
    	I agree on Jeeps low milage 90% of the use when not trailering :^(
    	Actually I was not impressed with the V6 milage either.
    	The thing around the V8 is at the time we were looking they were
    	not charging any more for the V8 then the V6.  I believe it was
    	due to the high demand and short supply on the V6 which is the
    	most popular.
    	The Jeep will be driven by my wife who left Digital to go back
    	to college at Worcester State.  We live in Oxford so not a far
    	drive.  Gas milage was not a critical factor in our choice for
    	this one.
    
    	I drive a Pontiac Grand Prix SE V6 and get 25mpg then 15mpg towing
    	The Jeep is supposed to get around 15mpg.....before towing :^(
    	Does this mean I'll be getting 5mpg when towing.....OUCH!!!!
    
    	Dick aka -< Tuna Tail >-   

I have other entries in here about my experiences, but basically, my '82
full sized Bronco with 302 cid V8 was not quite enough to pull my 24'
Kevlar-hulled cuddy. It did -okay- on the level and mild hills, but any
decent hills bogged it down. My next Bronco had a 351 cid V8, and it was
perfectly adequate for the task.

Art

    re:-1
    	Art,
    		Don't know the cid on the Jeep V8?
                Will check this out on the brochure I have at home.
    	thanks
    	Dick aka -< Tuna Tail >-

    
    	The Jeep GC V8 is a 5.2l, 318 cid EFI motor. The Dodge is rated
    230 hp while for some reason the Jeep is rated 220. As for gas
    mileage, my extended cab Dakota, 5.2l, 4 speed auto gets a pretty
    steady 17 mpg hiway w/o a trailer and anywhere from 11 to 15 mpg
    with the 3500 lb boat and trailer in tow. The 11 figure reflects
    heavy use of third gear mainly due to driving conditions that won't
    allow a steady 65+ mph. Above 65 mph the truck remains in fourth gear
    and yields the 15 mpg value.
    
    Rick
    
    Not to mention, that it's a ball to drive!

    The Jeep GC V8 gets 10 hp less than the Dakota because there wasn't
    enough room for the exhaust pipe to be routed the same way. It's
    apparently only slightly more restricted.
    
    Ya, I kinda enjoyed driving *that* Dakota V8 earlier this year. There's
    summin' to be said for lot's of low end beef. :^)
    
    ~jeff

    re: .234/5
    
    	WOW.  That's not much of a drop in the mpg when towing.
    
    	I was worried of a big drop when towing like my car 25mpg-->15mpg
    	I feel better about our Jeep V8 choice :^)
    	I was saw a Jeep and a 4Runner alongside each other this am.
    	I'm beginning to like the looks of the Jeep now.
    
    	How come most every 4Runner I see have the swing tire mount?
    	I liked the under carriage mount they have.  Why is this?
    	I would think the swing mount get's in the way and blocks rear
    	vision a tad?
    
    	Dick aka -< Tuna Tail >-

This summer we made our fourth vacation trip from the Boston area to the 
Bar Harbor area 'draggin' our 22 foot sail boat filled with camping and
boating gear behind our '89 Pathfinder. That is a 3 liter engine with 
automatic transmission. The Pathfinder is RATED at 3500 lbs with a 300 lb 
max hitch weight. 

We decided to have the rig weighed and when we did we also decided that it 
would be the last time we would do it. Our boat and trailer grossed out at 
4800 with just under 600 on the hitch. 

The negative sides were that we had to hill climb with the big rigs. That is 
out of over drive and back to third and a few times second gear.

The other MAJOR potential problem is that it was with a single axle trailer
WITHOUT brakes. Not too smart. Alert and sometimes tense driving avoided
any stopping problems, but that was the LAST time. The point is that properly
balanced (hitch weight ratio) smaller vehichles can tow, just not always
as fast. Vehicle has 89,000 miles and is still running strong. 

BUT, NEVER again without trailer brakes.

Fred

    Up until early December I had a '92 GMC Jimmy, the 4 door SUV. It had
    the enhanced 4.3 V6, fully loaded, including tow package. After 26K
    trouble free miles it was stolen out of my driveway and recovered
    stripped a day later. I tracked the mileage for a few months and
    calculated that I got 19.5 mpg overall without towing, and 18.2 mpg 
    when I mixed a few 40 mile & 130 mile tow trips in. The boat is a #3200
    inboard. It was a super tow vehicle. Plenty of power, good economy, and
    a cushy ride after a long day of playing. 
    
    I hope I have the same positive results with it's replacement!
    
    ~jeff

    
    Jeff-
    
    Sorry to hear about your loss. Those Jimmys have become very desirable
    lately. I'm considering a Jimmy/Blazer to tow a #3200 I/O. Based on
    your experience, would you consider towing 8-10 hours on relatively
    flat (GA to FLA) interstate? I would be making the trip once in March
    and again in October each year. Brakes on the trailer are a given,
    correct? Is your trailer single or double axle?
    I'll bite at your last sentence- will it be another Jimmy?
    
    Kim
    

    I towed in "drive" rather than overdrive as the manual recommends.
    You'ld have no problem with that amount of weight. I was able to
    maintain 60-65 without raising the engine temp above 210 (200 normal). 
    On a hot day with the A/C on the temp still stayed at 210.  You still
    have plenty of reserve power @ 65 so passing isn't a problem either.
    It really is an impressive powertrain.
    
    Make sure you get the "enhanced" 4.3 V6, 200 hp w/260 ft-lbs. (though I
    think 94's dropped to 190 hp).
    
    Sure be no problem at all.
    
    ~jeff

    
    Thanks- sounds like the package for me. I'm currently planning on
    picking up a low mileage '94 late next summer after the '95's come out.
    
    BTW- did you have leather? How did it hold up?
    
    
    Thanks again,
    kim
    
    

re                       <<< Note 7.241 by MIMS::PICKETT_K >>>
>                                -< more,more! >-

	I know I wasn't the one that was asked, but...
    
>    BTW- did you have leather? How did it hold up?
				-------------------

	How did it hold WHAT up ?    
    
>    Thanks again,
>    kim

	R
    
    

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                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1144.0                      Tow Vehicles...                       3 replies
BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana"                  26 lines  21-JAN-1994 09:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I was scanning for an official "towing" topic and did not find
    one.  Maybe this could be it.
    
    I am in search of a tow vehicle for a 19' boat and trailer weighing
    approx 2500 lbs.  
    
    I am considering full size wagons with v8s, full size broncos and 
    blazer type vehicles, and full size vans.
    
    In the Ford line-up I am partial to the 300 cu.in. I6 engine.  I know
    that the bronco would tow easily.  I was wondering how a full size
    E150 van with the 300-6 would tow.  
    
    Anyone used full size vans for towing?  
    
    How about full size wagons.  Is towing going to take a toll on a
    wagon.
    
    I will be towing about 10 times in the season.  Average ride is about
    25 minutes from the house to the lake I frequent.
    
    Oh yes, perhaps cost should be factored in here.  I'd like to spend as
    little as possible (who wouldn't) but would spend as high as $4000
    depending on age/mileage of the vehicle.
    
    Thanks, Mark

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                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1144.1                      Tow Vehicles...                          1 of 3
NOTAPC::BURGESS                                      46 lines  21-JAN-1994 10:43
     -< If you're good at backing with mirrors only - vans are a "maybe" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re           <<< Note 1144.0 by BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana" >>>
>                              -< Tow Vehicles... >-

>    I was scanning for an official "towing" topic and did not find
>    one.  Maybe this could be it.

	I think there's a  "Towing the boat"  topic somewhere - ?
    
>    I am in search of a tow vehicle for a 19' boat and trailer weighing
>    approx 2500 lbs.  

	The boat probably weights that much, I'd guess the trailer 
could be another 500 - 1000 or even more lbs, then there's the "gear", 
so you might want to plan for a 4,000 lb capacity  ??
    
>    I am considering full size wagons with v8s, full size broncos and 
>    blazer type vehicles, and full size vans.

	Yep, all good choices.  I have a suburban, works well.
This isn't a "towing" issue, its a "backing down the ramp" issue (-:
Van drivers seem to have more than the usual amount of trouble backing 
down the ramp to retrieve their boats - i.e. they don't seem to be 
able to see the trailer very well when there is no boat on it.  Maybe 
I don't know enough van drivers who are good at backing down ramps, 
but it seems that once the trailer dips out of sight over the steep 
part of the ramp they jack-knife the rig.  One guy solves this by 
leaving the rear doors open, this can lead to other problems (-:
    
>    In the Ford line-up I am partial to the 300 cu.in. I6 engine.  I know
>    that the bronco would tow easily.  I was wondering how a full size
>    E150 van with the 300-6 would tow.  

	It would probably pull fine, but vans tend to be front end 
heavy and rear end light, which leads to  a) handling problems unless 
you load lots of gear in the back  b) traction problems on some ramps 
- but if you load lots of gear in the back you can dump it on the ramp 
if you leave the rear doors open while backing up - see above (-:
    
>    Anyone used full size vans for towing?  

	We used to haul motorcycles ("dirt bikes") with an E-150 with 
	300 cu inch I6 - worked well enough.


	Reg

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                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1144.2                      Tow Vehicles...                          2 of 3
NUBOAT::HEBERT "Captain Bligh"                       24 lines  21-JAN-1994 10:45
                              -< dir/tit=trailer >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Powerboats
Created: 12-MAY-1988 10:19         1144 topics        Updated: 21-JAN-1994 09:18
             -< Introductions 2/Classifieds 3/'94 Ski Season 1140 >-
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     7    ENUF::GASSMAN      16-MAY-1988   242  Trailering the boat
    25  SAURUS::GROUT         2-JUN-1988     6  Bunk vs Roller Trailer
    55  BAGELS::MONDOU       22-JUN-1988    42  Trailer Repair Info
    56  PLDVAX::MBREAULT     23-JUN-1988    33  TRAILER BRAKES
   121  VLNVAX::LEVESQUE     16-AUG-1988     8  Painting a trailered boat
   164  NWACES::HEINSELMAN   26-SEP-1988    18  How do you replace bunks on a trailer boat trailer?
   223   HAZEL::GARNER       19-DEC-1988     2  Jackstands For Trailer
   314  ARCHER::SUTER        21-MAR-1989    39  Mass Trailer Registration
   325  WFOV11::KULIG        31-MAR-1989    37  Trailer wiring question
   371   BTOVT::JPETERS      11-MAY-1989     9  Proper grease for trailer wheel bearings?
   605   WORDS::BUZYNSKI     13-FEB-1990    11  WANTED: Axle and wheels for trailer
   794  KAOA01::COUTTS       15-FEB-1991    10  Trailer Information wanted
   824   MCIS2::MACKEY       17-APR-1991    14  Trailer hitches
   908  ZENDIA::CUMMINGS     27-SEP-1991    43  Trailer Tires
   944  NECVAX::HUTCHINSON   29-JAN-1992    16  Trailerable Salt Water Fishing Boats?
  1029  DPDMAI::BULLEN       16-NOV-1992    26  Is trailering a big boat feasible?
  1070  SOLVIT::AMATO         8-JUL-1993     0  boat trailer rentals?
  1132   MSBCS::KEITH         9-DEC-1993     3  "Little Rider" Trailers?

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                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1144.3                      Tow Vehicles...                          3 of 3
NUBOAT::HEBERT "Captain Bligh"                       27 lines  21-JAN-1994 11:00
                      -< can you see the empty trailer? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I towed a boat with a Ford Econoline (E250) for a few years. It was a
royal pain in the patoot for two reasons: visibility when backing down
the ramp was nil; and the long wheelbase (138") made maneuvering (when
backing down) a nightmare.

Broncos, Explorers, Blazers etc. have short wheelbases and are excellent
towers if they're set up for it (trailer tow package from the factory).

I tow two different boats with my full-sized Bronco. The 302 was too
small (6000# boat, gear, and trailer), the 351 is fine. On very steep
ramps I momentarily lose sight of my small trailer because the tailgate
is in the line of sight.

4WD in low range is easier on the vehicle when retrieving a heavy rig
than any other configuration.

The absolute worst setup I see on launch ramps is a compact (Toyota, S10,
Ranger...) two-wheel drive pickup with a cap. They lose visibility
because of the cap, most of the little pickups have enough guts to take
trash to the dump on Saturdays and no more, and they lack weight over the
rear tires and thus have just above zero traction on a slick ramp.

Your mileage may vary... etc etc

Lots of experience shared in this conference in previous notes.

Art

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                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1144.4                      Tow Vehicles...                          4 of 4
BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana"                  20 lines  21-JAN-1994 11:58
                        -< visibility :)---visibility >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Points well made on visibility!  I did not even think of that regarding
    a full size van.
    
    My last season towing was with an 80 Olds Delta 88 sedan 307-v8 and
    a Dodge Dakota 3.9l-v6.  Piece of cake towing the 14.5' Starcraft.
    When retrieving with the truck I always had to lower the tailgate
    so that I could see the trailer.
    
    This seasons boat is a 19' Glastron bow-rider.  I do not know the
    weight off hand (I should see if it is in the manual, must be).
    It has a 175 o/b.  The trailer speicifies 2500 lbs, gross I believe.
    So I assumed the whole package must be just under 2500 lbs.
    
    What about towing a boat if this size with a full size wagon/sedan?
    
    Any experience anyone can share on that. 
    
    It really seems like broncos/blazers are the way to go.  
    
    Mark

    You don't need a 4WD to haul a boat, but they do tend to make the
    launching and retreiving easier, and they are usually set-up to handle
    heavier payloads for gear & junk. If you use an "improved" launch ramp
    that isn't too crowded, or frequented by a bunch of 4 wheelers :^) ,
    then 2 wd will get you by. 
    
    I borrowed my father's '73 Olds Cutlass to pull my last boat home for a
    sale demo when my truck was out of commission (86 full size Blazer). The 
    boat was a 19' with V8 I/O, around #3200 with trailer. The things I noticed
    first compared to my truck, was the mirrors were too small for me to
    comfortable keep an eye on where the trailer was. Second was the truck
    had a lower first gear ratio, both automatics, and it was a lot easier
    to get the boat rolling with the truck. Otherwise the car was fine.
    Plenty of power, a good wheelbase for tracking, and visibilty for
    backing up was adequate 'cept for the mickey-mouse mirrors.
    
    Given your budget, you could buy a better car than a 4wd truck for equal
    amounts of money. Your average $4K 4WD wouldn't be the model of
    reliability. Not sure I would buy a station wagon either just because
    you needed a tow vehicle. Anthing with a V8, or a big 6, and a real
    frame for a class II/III hitch would work. There's a noter in here who used
    a 4 dr sedan, w/6 cylinder, to pull his tourney inboard for a few
    years, perhaps he could add some valuable info. :^)
    
    ~jeff

    I have used a 77 Chev full size van to pull a 19' bow rider. Like a
    previous noter mentioned the hardest part was backing down the ramp.
    
    The van has a 350 engine with plenty of power, just can't keep it
    straight down the ramp.
    
    I used to have a CJ7 jeep that was the trailering vehicle. It was a lot
    easier to launch with. Problem was the jeep was half the size of the
    boat and as I think back on the safety issues there.. I feel safer in
    the van.
    
    
    Mike

    Well, since you asked...  Yes, the "sedan" was an '85 Ford LTD midsize,
    but was set-up to do the job.  (I was between trucks at the time  :*)
    I added air shocks with a compressor, frame mounted hitch, tranny
    cooler, wider tires and, of course, chrome wheels.  I kept a close eye
    on tire pressures and fluid levels.  The rig I was towing weighed just
    over 3000 lbs, so I think I was pushing the towing envelope, and this
    was with keeping the fuel and gear out of the boat to minimize weight.
    
    Current tow vehicle is a '89 full size GMC Jimmy, BTW.
    
    Talk about pushing the envelope:  I saw a flatbed truck go down the
    highway last year with what looked like a 23' or so glasstron on it.
    It was being followed by a tow-truck pulling a boat trailer, which was
    followed by another wrecker with a little toyota pickup dangling from
    the hook.   We can all guess what happened...
    
    Doug

    
re: BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana"                  20 lines  21-JAN-1994 11:58
    
>    My last season towing was with an 80 Olds Delta 88 sedan 307-v8 and
>    a Dodge Dakota 3.9l-v6.  Piece of cake towing the 14.5' Starcraft.
    
    	What's wrong with the Dakota? It should perform the job just fine
    with the previously mentioned exception of unimproved ramps and no 4
    wheel drive....
    
    Rick

    I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned before:
    
    I have trailered a 25' travel trailer for years (~5000#) with
    everything from a Pontiac GTO, station wagon, pickup truck, and van.
    For the trailer, I finally concluded that comfort while traveling was
    the most important factor (after ensuring there was adequate power for
    the hills).
    
    In many campgrounds I've been to along the shore, I've seen these guys
    (particularly pickups with campers on them) with a hitch mounted on the
    FRONT bumper. The idea was that, for launching, you "pushed" the boat
    down the ramp with complete visability. Never tried this myself but it
    seemed like a reasonable approach.

    Rick.  
    
    The main problem with the Dakota is it cannot accomodate the whole
    family (2 adults, 2 kids, and sometimes the dog).  I did tow the boat
    home with the Dakota, it was very slugish, took a long time to get up
    to cruising speeds, and was constantly loosing power on the slightest
    of upward grades.  It is a 5 speed standard w/ 3.9l v6.
    
    I suppose it would pull the boat off a ramp, but I have to wonder.  The
    Dakota has 176,000 miles on it, and I fear that towing with this engine
    would bring its end-of-life sooner than later.
    
    I think the Olds will have no problem pulling the boat off a ramp.  It
    is the family tow vehicle until it is replaced.
    
    Ramp towing with a front mounted hitch, there was a lot of discussion
    on that in earlier entries.  Seems like a good idea.  But what about
    a rear wheel drive full size van, all the traction is now at a point
    where there is no weight, could be tough?
    
    Mark
    

re        <<< Note 7.252 by GUCCI::HERB "New Personal Name coming soon!" >>>
>                  -< I wouldn't tow 25 mi. like this though >-

>    I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned before:

	It has been   - by me and probably others... (-:

>    (particularly pickups with campers on them) with a hitch mounted on the
>    FRONT bumper. The idea was that, for launching, you "pushed" the boat
>    down the ramp with complete visability. Never tried this myself but it
>    seemed like a reasonable approach.

	Its usually referred to as a "spotting hitch" the idea being 
that you can "spot park" the trailer.  The biggest thing going for it 
is that the steering wheels of the towing ("pushing") vehicle are very 
close to the swivel point between the two vehicles - duhh, the 
non-availability of a rigorous mathematical proof notwithstanding - 
bleeve me, it works REAL WELL (-:   As to whether its worth the bother 
of unhooking, chocking the trailer, turning the tow vehicle around, 
hooking back up, etc..   and doing all that again to retrieve the boat, 
personal decision.

	
	I guess I've got better at planning the turn-around and using 
the mirrors - the best  "in a nut shell"  tip I ever heard on backing 
a trailer was  "just watch the trailer wheel on the inside of the 
curve, thats what you're driving".  I've seen some folks get back cricks 
from trying to back while looking over their shoulder to see where the 
trailer is, they just about climb over into the back seat as the boat 
drops down the steep part of the ramp (-:

	Reg

PS  its all (best) done with MIRRORS !

    I suppose it's tough to find a van with posi, but if you can retro fit,
    it would make a world of difference on those slick ramps.
    
    Carl

    .243
    
    > wondering how a E150 would tow...
    
    Last fall I acquired an '86 F150 with the 300 c.i. 6 cylinder engine.
    In November I used it to pull my #2500 lb (sail)boat and trailer
    about 40 miles from Winnipesaukee to my home in Epsom N.H.
    
    I was very pleased with the job that it did towing. Some of the terrain
    was hilly (both highway and back country roads) and the truck did
    a very good job. I would expect that  the similar ford van woud pull
    about the same.
    
    Bill
    

typically the 300 ci 6 has been an axcellent tow engine.  it has 

excellent low end torque.


you made a very good choice.

JIm

    
       I'm looking for a trailer to pull my 18.7' Sea Ray. This is a heavy
    boat, (not quite sure how heavy). I've pulled it with my S10 Blazer and
    had no problems, but the trailer I have is kind of like "HOME-MADE",
    not really for towing this boat. Is there a place that sells used but
    in good shape trailers, or should I go for a new trailer from a
    dealership?  
    
    Any help?
    Deb

	Fitchburg Marine sell trailers, all sizes. I'm not sure
	if they sell used ones. The owner's name is Vinny Deluca.
	He's a very knowledgable, and plesant to talk with.

	-tom-

    
    If you are up for a trip to Florida, trailers are dime-a-dozen.
    It's amazing how much cheaper they are down there.
    For example:
       I found an assortment of float-on 35' triple axle w/surge brakes
       from $1800 to $3700. Up here the best I found was $6000 for a tandem
       axle. (all were used, $8000 for new :(  )
    
    Garrison.
    
    P.S. Check out yacht trader for Fla. Brokers.

    
    
    	In your opinion, which is the best boat ramp on Winni.
    
    	I'm particularly interested in ease of parking.
    
    	Thanks

    Downing's in Alton Bay has vehicle/trailer parking right at the ramp,
    but get there early (b-4 9:am) on a weekend, as space is limited.  In
    comparison, the Alton town ramp cost the same, (must be up to $15/day)
    but they make you park your trailer ~2 miles away.
    
    Backbay in Wolfboro has a decent ramp and parking (railroad ave?) but
    the boat must be small enough to get under the bridge out to Winni;
    20' or less non-cuddy.  Don't know the cost if any.
    
    Silver Sands Marina in Gilford was $10/day (about 2 yrs ago) and is a
    good location to start from (central to Weirs, Merideth, Alton, and not
    too far from Rt. 93 if your coming from that way.)
    
    There are quite a few others on the lake, all with a price.  Depending
    on where your coming from, where you want to go and what you want to
    do, with probably dictate where you want to launch from.  A good place
    to start would be a map of Winni as it has all the launches/marinas
    indicated, and then you could call around.  Or, call the town(s)
    chamber of commerce that you may be interested in.
    
    Good luck...Winni is a big place.
    Doug