Conference 7.286::dcu

Account   Requirement       Monthly    Additional            Optional
                            Service    Features              Services
                            Fee

BASIC     *Direct deposit   FREE      |                      |
Checking  or $100 payroll             |Dividends on balances |
          deposited, AND              |> $1000               |PayMate Bill
          balances >=                 |                      |Paying Service:
          $1000                       |                      |$.25 transaction
                                      |Unlimited Checkwriting|$1.00/monthly
          *Direct deposit or          |                      |minimum
          $100 payroll      $2.00     |                      |
          deposited, AND              |                      |Personal
          balances < $1000            |                      |ADVANTAGE
                                      |Limited Overdraft     |Credit Line
          *No direct deposit          |Protection            |
          or $100 payroll   $2.00     |                      |Personalized
          deposited, AND              |                      |Checks
          balances >=                 |                      |
          $1000                       |                      |
                                      |                      |
          *No direct deposit          |                      |24-Hour ATM
          or $100 payroll   $4.00     |                      |Access:
          deposited, AND              |                      |DCU ATMs -- FREE
          balances < $1000                                   |Network ATMs --
                                                             |$1.00 per
-------------------------------------------------------------|transaction
                                                             |
DCU PLUS  CD balances >=    FREE      |Dividends on balances |24-Hour EasyTouch
Checking  $2500                       |> $1000               |Access FREE
                                      |                      |
          CD balances <     $5.00     |Unlimited Checkwriting|All-Occasion Gift
          $2500                       |                      |Checks -- $2.50
                                      |Limited Overdraft     |
                                      |Protection            |
                                      |                      |
                                      |$500 ADVANTAGE        |
                                      |Credit Line           |
                                      |                      |
                                      |Purchase Protection   |
                                      |Program               |


* Your direct deposit or at least $100 of your payroll automatically deposited
weekly to your BASIC Checking Account.
    

			     LIFESTYLE CHECKING

				MORE CHOICES!
				MORE OPTIONS!


	"You can choose any color you want, as long as it is black"
						Henry Ford -- 1908


	That was Henry Ford's approach to the automobile industry at the turn 
of the century.  If you wanted automobile transportation, you had to buy a 
black Model T.  How things have changed!

	"Choice" is the watchword of the American consumer today, as well it
should be.

	At DCU, we have taken a positive approach to offering our members 
diversified, high quality, competitively priced products and services.  We 
have restructured and expanded our checking accounts so you can select the one 
that best matches your lifestyle.

	We are very pleased to announce the introduction on September 1, 1991 
of two new checking accounts -- our BASIC Checking Account and the DCU PLUS 
Checking Account -- designed to give you flexibility and unlimited access to 
your funds.  These two accounts will replace our existing Share Draft Account.

	Both new accounts offer you unlimited checkwriting, overdraft
protection, the option to access your funds with an ATM card or by any 
touch-tone phone and earn dividends everyday your account balance is $1,000
or more.  Please refer to the reference chart and enclosed General Disclosure 
Statement and Truth-in-Savings Disclosure for complete details on our new 
accounts.

--- BASIC Checking Account ---

Since most of our members have their pay deposited directly into their 
checking account, we built our BASIC Checking Account around direct deposit 
and payroll deduction.  This account is free of monthly service fees if you 
maintain the necessary balance requirement, AND have either your direct 
deposit or at least $100 of your payroll automatically deposited weekly to 
your Basic Checking Account.

And, to protect you against the embarrassment and costs of overdrawing your 
account, we have a free, limited overdraft protection feature.  Each month,
DCU will automatically transfer funds (maximum of 3 transfers per month) from 
your Primary Share Account to your BASIC Checking Account to cover drafts 
drawn on insufficient funds.  All optional services are available with this 
account.

--- DCU PLUS Checking Account ---

Have you ever asked yourself, "Why do banks make me keep a minimum balance in 
my checking account when I have money deposited in Certificates of Deposit 
(CDs)?"  Well, we have!  And that's why we developed the DCU PLUS Checking 
Account.  There is no minimum balance requirement in this account, and it's 
free of monthly service fees when you have $2,500 or more in CDs at DCU, in 
your own account.

Every DCU PLUS Checking Account comes with free, limited overdraft protection, 
a $500 Personal ADVANTAGE Credit Line for credit qualified applicants and a 
unique Purchase Protection program, so purchases made with DCU PLUS Checking 
Account drafts are protected against theft or damage and have double warranty 
period.  All optional services are also available with this account.

--- Tell us which account you want! ---

So you may choose the type of checking account you want, we have attached an 
Account Selection Card to this folder.  Please take a moment to complete the 
Account Selection Card and return it to us.  Whichever account you select, you 
may continue to use your existing drafts.  If you do not return the card by 
September 1, 1991, your current Share Draft Checking Account will 
automatically change over to a BASIC Checking Account on September 1st.
    

    
    	In my opinion this is the STUPIDIST thing DCU has ever decided to
    due.  I've been a member since they opened, but not for long!
    
    	I will call HQ and give them a piece of my mind too!
    
    

    
    	RE: .3
    
    	Can you provide a pointer (telephone number) to NFCU?
    
    	Anyone else know of other institutions that offer free unlimited
    checking with no minumum balance??
    
     - Bob
    

    Just called HQ.

    Reasons for fees...

    	1) Loans down
    	2) Delinquencies up
    	3) Deposits down
    	4) Services up

    It takes money to run a business and they've got to get it from
    somewhere.

    What upsets me is that if my balance drops from $1000 to $999 for ONE
    day I'm going to get hit with that $2 fee.  The fee should be applied
    based on the average daily balance for the month.

    I told the customer service representative that DCU should of sent out
    a letter to all members explaining why they took this course of action
    and the cost justifications for doing so.  She told be she'd forward
    the suggestion up the chain.

    I'll be looking for the letter!
    

    
    I surrender.  DCU, you have killed me with kindness and concern.  You
    have smothered me with options and choices when all I ever wanted was
    value; a reasonable rate of return and access to reasonable loans.
    
    This completes the transition of DCU from a credit union owned by it's
    members for its members, to a bank in it for the money.  The members of
    this institution should FLOOD the phone lines of DCU (8-223-6735) with
    calls of protest concerning this.  I assume nothing like this could happen
    without approval of the BoD.  Who are the people we should send our
    thank you notes to??? 
    
    If any out there had any doubts what-so-ever about what DCU is and
    where it is going, this should crystalize the picture for you.  Makes
    me wonder if all this additional revenue is required to replace the
    anticipated loan losses.  
    
    Well, the timing couldn't have been better!  I was about to order
    checks.  I guess I'll still have to, except from the bank down the
    street.
    
    Chow DCU!  It's been real.  And pretty unreal at times.

    I have spoken with several DCU members in this facility (DCO, Landover
    MD) this morning.  Almost all indicated that they would close their DCU
    checking account.  None of them were happy about the information.
    
    Now that DCU wants to deprive us of the one benefit (i.e., "real" free
    checking) which caused many (if not most) of us to join DCU in the first
    place, DCU will be evaluated on its remaining merits.
    
    Cost:	The cost of BASIC checking is low ($2-4), but the cost of ATM
    		usage is high ($1 per trans).  Other local (to DC/MD/VA)
    		banks offer flat-rate checking for a slightly higher price,
    		but many offer unlimited access to their own ATMs for free.
    		There are no free ATMs for DCU in the Mid-Atlantic area.
    
    Convenience:
    		There is a single office in all the Mid-Atlantic.  It is 
    		highly available to those who work in the building, but
    		many people are located elsewhere or work on-site during the
    		day.  DCU has no evening hours.  Other banks offer multiple
    		branches with evening hours.  This will be even more
    		critical now that several local offices are being combined
    		into one new large office several miles from here.
    
    ATMs:	DCU has no local free ATMs.  To find a usable ATM, one must
    		locate a CIRRUS machine, which may mandate a considerable
    		drive.  Other banks have copious free ATMs.  And just about
    		every bank in the area subscribes to the MOST network,
    		making practically ANY ATM usable for a fee (FYI: last time
    		I saw an ATM which wasn't MOST was about 2 years ago; that
    		back has since joined in).
    
    Rates:	DCU's interest rates seem consistently low, compared to most 
    		area banks.  They are "competitive" with some, but I can't
    		name a bank with lower interest rates.
    
    Communication:
    		This is the first bank I've worked with that announced
    		major fee changes with LESS than a month's notice.  I STILL
    		wouldn't know about it if I hadn't happened to see a
    		brochure while I was filling out a withdrawl form!  And the
    		tone of the brochure!  I can't imagine any bank having the
    		NERVE to call a fee increase an increase in our "choices"!
    
    Other:	EasyTouch is a plus, but highly available MOST machines and
    		free local ATMs can easily cancel this out.  Overdraft
    		protection is also a plus, but it is hardly unique.
    
    Bottom Line:
    		Perhaps this is an inventive way of handling complaints
    		from DCU members out of the Northeast.  Now that they've
    		dropped their major competitive edge, they seem to be
    		encouraging people to bank elsewhere.  I hope that the
    		revenues from the fees will cover the losses from the
    		inevitable account closings.
    
    As for me, I am beginning my search for a new bank TODAY!
    
    Sadly,
    
    -- Russ

   I just just talking to one of the tellers here in Marlboro as I had some
questions on the new accounts.

   On the BASIC checking, the $1000 minimum must be in the checking account.
Balances in other accounts do not count toward this minimum. That means having
to keep $1000 in an account that pays a lower interest than a savings account.
I usually have enough in savings, not in checking, to meet this minimum.

   In our case my wife and I each have an account. This means having to keep
$1000 in each checking account or pay the service charge for each account.

   As far as the PLUS account, I cannot see having to keep $2,500 in a CD
to get free checking and paying $5 if the CD balance drops below this and
other account balances are not considered.

   I have always kept DCU mainly for the convenience and may continue to do
so. At the same time I will probably consider moving my saving deposits to
another credit union which pays higher interest rates. I have been considering
this for awhile but the time has now come. I would have to pay the $2 fee but
will make it up on the other end.

>	"You can choose any color you want, as long as it is black"
>						Henry Ford -- 1908

How ironic that they chose this quote to boldly place on the literature
going to DCU members.  The irony is, no matter what choice I have, it 
will still cost me.  That is, unless I withdraw my funds from DCU...<sigh>.

-Andy

    
    >Reasons for fees...

    > 	1) Loans down            (rates stink)
    >   2) Delinquencies up      (they said they are still lower than the norm)
    > 	3) Deposits down         (down even further now)
    >  	4) Services up           (why? we obviously don't have money for
    				  them)
    
    Wait a minute!!  Isn't this the same line of B.S. they fed us when the
    credit card minimums and rates were jacked up?  We are all being taken
    for fools.  Let's see how much more money they get when people start
    closing accounts.  Don't they know this kind of logic hasn't worked for
    the government and won't work for them???
    
    I'm totally convinced there are idiots running this credit union.  At
    least right now.  In the future?  That is up to us...
    

	I just got off the phone with DCU, and actually got them to
	change a ruling in my favor.

	I have a line-of-credit account, and NON-USED Checking, and
	a savings..

	I DON'T use, never HAVE used, never WILL use the checking
	account.  I don't even have checks for the account.  However,
	it seems that the account was set up when I applied for the
	Line-of-credit.  To be used as a clearing account for any
	draft checks I write against the L.o.C.

	After reading the responses here, I called..  Sure enough
	they said I was going to be charged $2. a month any month
	that I wrote a LOC draft...  Because it would clear thru
	the checking account, it would set the flag for a charge..

	I argued, successfully, that I don't have a checking account,
	that they (DCU) set it up for a clearing area.  After about ten
	minutes of going back and forth, I was put on hold.  When the
	clerk returned, she said if I simply closed the checking account
	then they would use the draft account as a clearing account, 
	and I wouldn't be charged a monthly fee.

News Flash...

	While I was writing this, I thought I'd call my local DCU 
	office to find out about closing my Checking account..  Sure
	enought, all I have to do is visit them and sign a form to
	close the account.  Seems the DCU has changed policy lately
	that you don't need a checking account to have a LOC account.

	Anyways..  I'll keep the LOC account (The rate is still pretty
	good... around 11 1/8), and my emergency savings account. 

	Boy.. Am I glad my wife works for a bank, so we get free ATM
	and checking.. Along with interest.  :-)

    
    RE: .14
    
>	Anyways..  I'll keep the LOC account (The rate is still pretty
>	good... around 11 1/8), and my emergency savings account. 
    
    The current rate for the unsecured line of credit (what they call the
    Advantage LOC) is 17.25%.  You must be referring to the Equity LOC.

       I just got off the phone with DCU Headquarters. The rep I talked to
    seemed to be writing down my comments. She tried some of the same lines
    used in the brochure, but I didn't bite. I've been a member since day
    one. But not any more.
                                    Denny

	re .15

	You're right... This is really a second mortgage LOC...

	A co-worker just noticed something else..

		-- You only get interest on your balance
		-- if the balance is over $1000

	What this means is..  Not only won't we pay interest
	on your $999.99, but we'll charge you a fee besides..

	The few people I've talked to here will be closing
	their checking account, and looking elsewhere..

	Not only because of the new fees, but also because of
	lack of notice...  What ever happened to a 60-90 day notice..

	The trouble is..  Even if some people do close accounts, 
	DCU will make money in the long run..  Those that stay
	will be either those that don't mind paying the service
	charge (ie.. "I'll end up paying it to someone..), or
	those who can afford to leave $1000 balance at all times.

	DCU makes money from the small guys with a fee monthly,
	or by loaning out the larger balances...

	I know it stinks... but I'm not surprised

    ...But they do lose my paycheck going onto their balance sheet every
    month. I've talked to about a half dozen people with checking. All but
    1 are pulling out. I'll probably pull my savings too, because if they
    go under I don't want to have to wait for the Government to pay me off. 
                                          Denny

    
    RE: .2  (DCU brochure)
    
>Every DCU PLUS Checking Account comes with free, limited overdraft protection, 
>a $500 Personal ADVANTAGE Credit Line for credit qualified applicants and a 
>unique Purchase Protection program, so purchases made with DCU PLUS Checking 
>Account drafts are protected against theft or damage and have double warranty 
>period.  All optional services are also available with this account.

    	And is this another "additional service" we have been screaming
    for?  Are the additional fees going to replace somebodys blender that
    broke out of warranty?  Is the what a credit union is for?  Come on
    DCU.  This is ridiculous.
    
>--- Tell us which account you want! ---
    
    We want what we have now!
    Stop trying to help us before you bankrupt us...
    
    

Not only do I have to close out my checking account but each of my
kids have one too......

What a waste. CDs, Savings, CRTs, RSVP....all will be going away 
assuming there are more reasonable banks out there.

Maybe I'll go to that guy on T.V. selling CDs in Govt. funds who give
a FREE checking acct. Just ticks me off that I ordered (small batch) of
new checks two weeks ago.

Adios DCU !

Lloyd

    After they closed the PNO branch, I stayed with them because of the free
    checking and Visa.
    
    I just found out (for you westerners) that First Interstate has free
    checking with automatic deposit.  I no longer see a reason to stay.
    
    Mike

    Does anybody know if there is a way to get free checking by keeping
    money in any other account other than checking? If the answer is NO
    then it's BYE BYE DCU for me.
    
    My checking account bounces up and down as I write check. I'm not going
    to fund it to the level to make sure it doesn't drop below $1000 at
    all. It annoys me enough trying to make sure it doesn't drop below 0
    anbd exercise the credit line but at least that is only a few cents
    charge until I notice and refill it.
    
    With my Baybanks account they don't care about the checking account as
    long as I keep a certain amount of money in the Money Market Account.
    
    Also how come they're springing this on us with less than 1 months
    notice. This is the first I've read about it (ie here in this
    non-official channel). I presume official notice comes 2 weeks before
    1st Sept in our monthly statements.
    
    Finally I have a few things to say to DCU administration:
    
    	1, Changing the rules with next to no notice stinks.
    	2, Getting the members to pay for screwups the DCU board and
           management made in giving loans to bankrupt institutions
           is not the way to run a business.
    	3, Your policies are driving the institution into the ground
    	4, You've lost me as a customer if you can't come up with a way
           for me to maintain free checking without having to watch my
           checking account balance on a daily basis. I'd even accept
    	   an average minimum over a month rather than an absolute minimum.
    	5, We have far more choices than Henry Ford's customers and DCU
           won't be on a lot of peoples lists if you continue with these
           ascenine policies.

    .1 implies (states, actually) that there will be no interest earned on the
    first $1000 in your checking account.  I presume one could get at least
    6% interest by placing that $1000 in an account _somewhere_.  So one
    loses the opportunity to earn $60/year (say).
    
    In other words you end up paying $5/month.  (More if you could earn
    >6%, of course.)  
    
    Seems it would be better to keep a minimum balance (near $0) and pay 
    the $2/month...
    
    Rich
    

       Merchants NAtional Bank in Leominster has no fee/ check charge
    checking accounts. You only pay for buying your checks. I'm stopping on
    the way home.
                                        Denny

    
    Cooperative Bank in Littleton/Groton - 
    
    	FREE checking (plus graduated interest) if either:
    
    		- keep 500$ balance
    		     OR
    		- Get paycheck direct deposit to them
    
    
    508-635-5000

    
    I'd like to ask very specific questions concerning the reasons they
    gave for instituting fees on checking.  I realize it will be a cold day
    in hell before I get any answers but I'll ask anyways.
    
    1. Loans down
    
    	A. What loans are down?
    	B. Did it ever occur to the management of DCU that the loan
    	   policies may be the reason?
    	C. Did it ever occur to the management of DCU that the loan
    	   rates may be the reason?
    	D. Have you considered lowering rates to stimulate business?
    	E. If the money can't be loaned to members it is "parked"
    	   in a liquid investment to collect interest.  So DCU shouldn't be
    	   losing money.  Is this not the case?
    
    2. Delinquencies up
    
    	A. Delinquencies on what are up?  Mortgages? credit cards? LOC?
    	B. Have you considered increasing the cost of THOSE services
    	   instead of levying a fee on checking accounts and people who are
    	   NOT delinquent?
    	C. Have you considered tightening your policies on these delinquent
    	   proan services or adding additional criteria to reduce them?
    	D. Exactly what are the delinquency rates and are they higher than
    	   the industry norm?
    	E. Are you not already accounting for delinquency when offering a
    	   service?
    
    	3. Deposits down.
    
    	A. How will this new fee on checking increase deposits?
    	B. What else has DCU done or considered to stimulate deposits?
    	C. Why are falling deposits reason to institute a checking fee?
    
    	4. Services up.
    
    	A. Why are you adding adding services which eliminate a basic
    	   service which members depend on?
    	B. Why are you adding services which are not self-supporting?
    	C. Who decides what services will be offered?
    	D. Is a service offered by DCU forever (free checking wasn't) or
    	   will it be terminated if deemed unprofitable?
    	E. Where is the money coming from to provide the new service of
    	   insuring items purchased with DCU checks?
    	F. Why is DCU offering a service (insurance of purchases) normally
    	   associated with credit card companies?
    
    
    
    	Commentary:
    
    	In my opinion, this change and the change to the Visa card minimum
    purchase have the same objective.  DCU has the ability to calculate
    with a reasonably high degree of accuracy the amount of money they
    will be gaining from the changes and know exactly who they will be
    affecting.
    
    In the case of the credit cards, I believe DCU is trying to get rid of 
    members who use their credit card wisely and to their (members) advantage 
    by paying the balance every month and those who use their cards 
    infrequently.  A free Visa card isn't free if you have to purchase $2000 
    more than you otherwise would.  Maybe DCU miscalculated and Digital
    employees pay off the balance more than the norm.  But doesn't DCU make
    money on any charges made with the card?  Are you still losing money
    DCU?
    
    In the case of this recent change, DCU is targeting members who maintain 
    their money in higher interest accounts and move it to checking when
    needed.  And members that don't have thousands to park in their
    checking are just too much overhead for them.  This will encourage them
    to go elsewhere.  It appears DCU doesn't need or want the small saver
    anymore.  I guess they've gotten too big to give a damn about them. 
    DCU now is instituting changes which are designed to cull out the
    membership.
    
    The Digital Credit Union does not exist anymore.  The Bank of Digital
    now stands in it's place.  The reasons why DCU got so big and has been
    so successful don't exist anymore, or they are fading fast.  What is
    left is an institution and management who don't give a damn about the 
    very reasons the credit union exists in the first place.
    
    People out there had better realize that the next election for the
    Board of Directors and the next annual meeting may be their last chance
    to save what is left of DCU and correct this very disturbing change of
    course.  If the current group of people are left at the helm any longer, 
    the DCU we knew will be just another stinking bank.  There are plenty 
    of those around.  What we want and need is a credit union.
    
    
    Phil
    

    
    Since (as .-1 put so well!) DCU is now the Bank of Digital, does anyone
    know of another Bank in the Colorado Springs area that offers free
    checking?
    

    re: .23 (no interest on the first $1000)
    
    I may have this wrong, but I don't believe that is the case.  The chart
    states that there would be interest on "balances > $1000", as I recall.
    That should mean (I hope) that a $1001 balance will earn interest on
    the entire amount.  But a $999 balance would earn no interest.
    
    re: short notice
    
    I am still floored by this!  It was an _ACCIDENT_ that I happened to
    come across the information in the first place!  I'd love to know when
    the first reader gets an "official" notice from DCU in the mail.  I
    also find it interesting that they chose to do the nonsense during a
    big vacation month, where few people are around to complain!
    
    re: the brochure
    
    This is a serious error on DCU's part.  They honestly believe they can
    disguise a simple rate hike by saying it adds to our "choices".  I
    cannot trust a financial institution which has gone to such lengths to
    bury the truth!  If I can't trust what they say, how can they expect me
    to trust them with my hard-earned dollars?
    
    Do other branches have these brochures out as well?  This information
    must get out to people NOW!  Please feel free to forward my postings in
    .1 and .2 to anyone who is interested.  Give others the option to
    withdraw their funds before they get blind-sided with the fees!
    
    -- Russ

	Would the Moderator please officially forward this conversation, 
	appropriately cleaned up, to the spokesperson to address the many 
	issues brought up here.  The DCU management should answer these 
	comments.  Also, the entire listing should be forwarded to all 
	Board members, as they should have mail accounts, awareness of 
	this discussion, and access to this NOTES file to respond if 
	they dare.

	Dave

   I was told by one of the tellers that the brochure is being mailed along with
everyones statement this month. Statements should be arriving any day now. I
picked up mine already at the MRO4 branch where I work.

   I just  spoke  to  DCU  and  told  them that I thought their advertising
   campaign  smacked  of sleezy marketing as opposed to honesty.  I can get
   the  sleezy approach elsewhere.  Even if news is bad, and I had to start
   paying  for  my  account,  I'd  prefer  the up-front, honest approach of
   saying,  I'm  sorry,  but  because  of x, y, and z, we now have to start
   charging  and  here  are  your options.  I said that I thought they were
   insulting  our  intelligence  with  their sleezy advertising approach of
   trying to convince us that it was really to our advantage.

   I also  asked  about  interest  if you keep $1001 in the account, and it
   drops  to  $999  for  one day out of the month.  For all the days of the
   month,  you  get  interest  on  $1001,  except for 1 day when you get no
   interest.

    
    Without a doubt, it is time to stand up and be counted on our part.
    
    And in the same vein, I want to know who, by name, instituted or voted
    for this abomination.  To try and make it seem like they are doing us a
    big favor, almost like we wanted this, is pure deceit.  As an owner
    (for now) I want to know what individual or groups of individuals are
    so out of touch with its membership.  I also want to know who did NOT
    want to institute this.  No babies with the bath water here.  But it's
    time for accountability on DCU's part.  Enough is enough.  The BoD,
    Officers, Loan Committee, etc. are comprised of PEOPLE.  Who are the
    people responsible?  Who voted for insuring broken blenders instead of
    providing a basic service to it's members?
    
    Somehow, I know what the reply will be....
    
    
    
    During these difficult times of declining deposits, increasing
    delinquency, and declining loans it would be detrimental to DCU to resign
    or step-down,..... or come forward.
    
    Meanwhile, the poor tellers, branch managers and people who answer the
    phones take the heat.
    

    
    we the owners of DCU aren't allowed accountability from the BoD!
    
    they are in their own world, one that is out of touch with the world
    the members/owners live in.  after seeing DCU flourish at times during
    the past 12 years, i now feel the institution has come full circle and
    is embarked on a course that is out of step with what was, and has
    always been, a members basic service credit union.  instead of fair
    rates for loan/deposits, we pay more and receive less, instead of free
    checking and low minumums, we have high balance requirements and
    frivolous services.
    
    the BoD, each and every one of them, should be voted out of office and
    fresh blood infused into the institution.  maybe then we can see DCU
    return to what it was during the good times...
    

    Re: Colorado Springs area
    
    Don't you have a First Interstate there?  Free checking with auto.
    deposit if you do.  They're all over the west.
    
    Mike

This reminds me of the time several years ago when the Bank of 
New England took over Guaranty Bank.  The first thing they did 
was raise all the fees, which essentially drove all the small 
customers away.  *Everyone* I know who had an account there 
closed it and went elsewhere.  My brother told me of the day he 
was in line closing his account.  It seemed evryone else in line 
was doing the same thing.

This is the same Bank of New England that was recently taken over 
by the feds.

And, somehow I'm not surprised that they tried to pass this off 
as "more choices".  After all, this is the same organization that 
has advertised a 1 hour middle-of-the-day closing as a way to 
serve us better!

Guess I'll be shopping for a new bank.

Maryellen

    
    Carl Leeber has been the person who takes care of forwarding the
    notesfile entries to DCU and have been relaying back DCU responses to
    the questions and issues.
    
    I will discuss with Carl this specific topic and how we go about
    cleaning it up and relaying the responses to DCU.
    
    Nisreen Sunnaa
    Moderator

    
    I am wondering how much this sudden fee increase have to do with DCU's
    Ex-President's scandal. Does this warrant a question on how much $$ 
    was really involved, and are we paying the price for it now..?
    
    I think it is time to look for another bank.
    
    Nisreen

    
    RE: .38
    
    I had wondered the same thing but did not want to mix disasters and be
    so cynical.  But one definitely has to wonder.  Too many coincidences
    usually is no coincidence.

    
    	Would a petition of some sort help?  Could we use a note in
    this notes file for petition/signatures?

    
    re: -1
    
    See note 255.0
    
    

    
    I am so glad that I took my checking account and auto deposit
    elsewhere back when DCU first started pulling these kinds of moves.
    I'd hate to have to feel "rushed" to find a new bank before September 
    1st.
    
    Problem is, I still have a savings account there and I have a small 
    amount automatically deducted into that account every week. I think I'm 
    gonna pull that out now, too.  DCU is just starting to annoy me.
    
    At first I thought they were just inept.  They may be;  they are
    certainly stupid enough to believe that we would be fooled by a ruse
    such as this "choice" promotion.  But I have a feeling the noter
    who said DCU knows exactly what they are doing may be right - they 
    have decided who they want to do business with and are giving the
    rest of us incentives to leave.  In either case, I fear for the
    solvency of an institution that offers NO reasons to keep money there.
    
    - Sean

    
    RE: .40
    
    Any petition or signature drive should include a petion to get members
    on the BoD election ballot.  Or is this only restricted to 2 months
    before the election?  My guess is there would be PLENTY of people to
    choose from besides the incumbants.
    

    In New Hampster, NFS Savings Bank has a "Passport" checking account
    which has no fees, and the first checks are free.
    
    An added Benefit, they return your checks with the statements, which
    DCU never has.
    
    On to DCUageddon
    
    	Bill
    

    
    
    	  A teller at the DCU in the facility where I work, when asked why
    	this sudden change to checking account fees said that there are
    	80,000 DCU checking accounts and 8,000 of them maintain near $0 
    	balances, and that these measures were taken to eliminate these
    	non profitable accounts.  
          Now I don't know how accurate that is but, I hardly believe
    	that this would be the only reason, especially when they are
    	requiring a $1000 balance to dodge the monthly service fee.  I
        think this tellers response shows that the DCU management hasn't
    	even adequately informed its employee's of the changes and their
    	reasons.  
    	   I agree with an earlier reply that the only way to make the BoD
    	understand how we feel about this sudden change and the seeminly 
    	underhanded way that it is being introduced, is to act in mass.
    	   I plan on looking around for a local bank with free checking,
    	while keeping the minimun $5 in my savings account to vote 
    	for someone who represents my needs and wants in the DCU.  I also
    	plan on calling the DCU main office and giving a piece of my mind
    	on the way that they handled this:  under 1 month notice, no
        reasons explained, and the underhanded way it was introduced (ie.
        the "More Choices, More Options!" brochure, which is written to 
    	sound as if the DCU is introducing something that will benefit
    	DCU members.
    
    
    	My $.02 worth....free of charge,
    
    	Ted

    	I think it would be a marketing coup for banks in areas with
    	high densities of DCU members to advertize specials for DCU
    	members who switch to their institutions.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    A couple of observations...
    
    The brochure from DCU says "You can choose any color you want, as long
    as it is black" How prophetic. This will be a black day, for the DCU
    and its shareholders.
    
    8000 un-used accounts. Have they tried something mundane like asking
    the people if they really need them any more... THey probably can't
    even contact most of them now.
    
    IN this time of economic trouble when most of us have semi willingly
    accepted no or minimal pay rises over the last few years, they expect
    as to have sufficient funds to just leave $1K as a "place holder"
    
    Also, looking at the brochure
    
      * Unlimited checkwriting. (Boy wouldn't it be nice to get them
    back...) Does this mean that checks will be free? It certainly infers
    it. Hmm, I wonder if the Cafeteria will accept checks as payment for
    lunch...
    
    * Limited Overdraft protection. So that they can move money between
    your accounts without notifying you... I have this feature with my bank
    back in Australia, it doesn't cost any extra, but at least there I
    trust the good sense of my Bank Branch Manager (as he is a personal
    friend, and has to sign off on any transfers).
    
    * $500 Credit Line   - Give me a break, I receive 3-4 offers a month
    for credits cards offering 3-10 times that credit. There is no mention
    of the "cost" of that credit line...
    
    * Personalized checks. You mean like the ones I have now, with my name
    on them, that I pay DCU far more for than I would at "Current","
    Check's in the mail" or any of the other check printers, who
    incidentally offer several styles of check, and dozens of
    colors/patterns.
    
    * All occasion gift checks. $2.50 to send someone a check (Now there is
    a real personal gift...) that says "Happy Generic Day" on it...
    
    
    * Choice is the watchword of the American Consumer today, as they say
    in their literature. And everyone else that I have ever seen that
    introduces a new level of service will retain the existing service as
    one of the choices. What is being offered is not a choice. It is two
    options, both of which will now cost us more money than we have spent
    in the past. 
    
    I'll give the DCU the grace of a week or so, to recant this ridiculous
    decision, and then I'll be off to one of the many banks that offers
    better interest rates, better services, less hassles and better
    management. (And as has been shown, there are more than enough of those
    around in this competitive economic climate.)
    
    Peter Q.
    

    Sigh.  For the first time in over 10 years, I'm looking for alternate
    banking services.  The gaul!  I've got $X (5 figures) in an IRA
    account, and they're going to charge me for checking!  As a "charter
    member", my loyalty is about to come to an end.
    
    The DCU is a joke.  Can we call for a recall of the entire board?
    I for one will not vote for any of the incumbents on the next election
    of BOD.
    
    I haven't read this whole thread (I will extract and read it later)
    so sorry if this has been said before.
    

    	If I choose the $2500 CD option (as if I had the money to
    	simply do that) would it count for all 3 of my checking accounts
    	at DCU?  (Mine and 2 family accounts.)  At least that would
    	beat having to keep $3000 total in the 3 accounts...
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    	Oh, I get it!  This is an April Fool's joke a half year
    	early!

    Since Digital promoted direct deposite, and since petty cash is set up
    for EFT, I wonder Digital's involvement.  Does anyone have a list
    of other banks Digital will make paycheck deposits into?

    re .-1: Does anyone have a list
    of other banks Digital will make paycheck deposits into?

    To the best of my understanding...
    
    Any bank that ties into the Automated Clearinghouse (ACH) system.
    In other words, any bank. 
    
    Get the form from personnel.  You'll probably have to supply a voided 
    check (from the destination account) with the form back to Digital.
    
    Rich
    

	I received my statement yesterday. With all the comments
	about this fiasco, I decided to read the pamphlets.

	Enclosed were three items..

		o Lifestyle Checking..  (Explains the new Checking features)
		o Schedule of Fees..    
		o Member Agreement..

	Enough has been said about the Lifestyle Checking brochure, that
	I won't get into it..  

	However..  There are a few points from the other books that I
	found disturbing.

	I don't have a checking account with DCU, and am I glad I don't.

	At most (if not all) banks, you get your checks returned with
	your statement..  Now I keep my checks for X years (I currently
	have 5 years worth), just in case I'm audited or a mix payment
	at a business..

	If I read the 'Schedule of Fee' brochure correctly, (and please
	correct me if I'm wrong), if I needed a copy of my check, they
	would charge me $1.00 for item  ($10.00 if before 6/87).

	I suppose they think their doing me a service by holding the
	checks for me..   

	Here is from the 'Member Agreement'
	
		General Disclosure Statement:

		  4.  All accounts are subject to DCU's Fee Schedule 
		      which may be changed from time to time without
		      notice.

		  5.  We (DCU) reserve the right to change any provision
		      of this Disclosure and to establish, from time to
		      time, rules and regulations concerning any account,
		      which will be available for inspection upon request.

		
	One other thing.   The so called 'Purchase Security / Extended
	Protection' for your purchases made by check...

		THIS SERVICE IS ONLY IN EFFECT BETWEEN 

			01-SEP-91  AND  31-OCT-91

	Are they serious...  The d*mn service is only for two months...
	
	Like I said earlier..  Thanks but no thanks..

       1st Safety Fund Bank had an ad in the local paper last night for
    Free Checking*. They have branches in Leominster, Fitchburg, Gardner,
    Worcester, and either Northborough or Westborough.
                                               Denny
    
    *No Fine Print  

re: .55

Actually Al, if I remember correctly, all Federally (sp?) insured banks/savings
and loans/etc. can hold your money for some long time after you ask for it.
It's in all their fine print.

Bob

    Re: .55:  So, transfer your SHARE account (savings) balance to your
    SHAREDRAFT account (checking) and write a final "to close account"
    check.

    Nashua Trust - $500 minimum balance, 4.75%, no fee as long as balance
                   does not drop below $500

    I just spoke with Mary Madden (DCUHQ, DTN 223-6735 x207).  I encourage
    you to call her directly instead of speaking with one of the human
    answering machines who are just taking notes.
    
    Bottom line, is they're complaining about the expense of servicing the
    checking accounts and say that their fees are less than other financial
    institutions of their size (80000 members).  This may be true, but
    their interest rates are also less, and their checking service is
    cheaper to deliver (no returned checks).  Somehow, it doesn't
    feel like any real "benchmarking" was done.  They somehow think their
    competition is Citibank when in reality their competition is the local
    banks in Gardner, Fitchburg, Shrewsbury, etc.
    
    I pointed out that we, the members, ought to have some say in how
    our services are created and delivered.  I was quite happy with DCU
    before they put in VISA.  If their expenses are so high, how about
    dropping the VISA accounts?
    
    She metioned the ATM card.  I countered with a $1.00 fee to use it on
    any machine noother than the DCU installed machines, and mentioned that I
    wouldn't even need a ATM card with my local bank because their branch
    is close by.
    
    I pointed out that my $x (substantially greater than the $2500 CD 
    requirement) in IRA accounts is a longer-term deposit than a 90-day CD. 
    They didn't quite understand that.  (The answer was one filled with
    rhetoric, inferring that she was off-guard on the topic.)
    
    I told her that since I can find better rates on savings accounts,
    loans, and fee-less (or lower caps, like $500 instead of $1000) by
    shopping around, that my ONLY reason for staying with DCU is one of
    convenience.  It used to be that the DCU offered real savings.  Now
    they look like any other bank.
    
    I may keep my account (since I have a second mortgage with them) but
    I'm likely to move most of my business elsewhere.

    That was the specifics.  Now for the general:
    
    How can we return the control of the DCU to us?  It appears that the
    board of directors is marching to a drummer other than than us - their
    owner and customer.
    
    Does the charter allow for a recall movement?  I am beginning to feel
    that the DCU board should be removed.  The incumbents are getting
    complacent.  I thought they were doing a  good job. Now I can see they
    weren't.  It's time for a change.

    
    
    	Well I read through about half of the replies listed here
    	and while I don't normally participate in this conference,
    	I felt the need to voice my opinion on this situation as
    	well.
    
    	Like most, I, too, had absolutely NO knowldedge of this
    	happening.  I was in a DCU branch yesterday and noticed
    	the flyer - but thought it was an OPTION, not a REQUIREMENT.
    	What CHOICE are you giving me, DCU?!? (FWIW.. I got the
    	actually "official" word last night in my statement)
    
    	The economy isn't in the best of shape and we're in a 
    	recession - GASP! - maybe there are a few of us out there
    	who don't HAVE $1000 to put into your facility and even
    	if we DID - wouldn't put it into a CHECKING account.
    	(I know mine would go RIGHT into a savings account)
    
    	This absolutely INFURIATES me.  The main reason I chose
    	to come to the DCU was because my former bank was charging
    	me up the ying-yang to have my money there.  Are you here
    	for us or are we here for you????
    
    	I've currently got three, yes THREE checking accounts
    	with the DCU.  Now I'm not only not going to get interest
    	(which I don't get anyway because I'm not "rich" enough)
    	but I'm going to get slapped with $6/month because I
    	know full well that I won't be able to keep a balance
    	of +1000.
    
    	If and when I can find a bank/credit union with free
    	checking, etc... it's see ya later DCU.
    
    	/Kim

A minor rat-hole here...

re: .61 and others, why do you have more than one checking account? Business
on the side?

Bob_the_curious

    I just sent the attached memo to the Traveletter Department because I
    refuse to pay the DCU charges.  So much for DCU's actions being totally
    separate from Digital.  I don't follow DELTA_IDEAS notes.  Has the
    impact of this come up there?


Subject: Reimbursment for My Future Travel Expenses

    Xxxxx,
    
    I understand that you are the one to contact regarding the automatic 
    deposit of expense reimbursement in to a DCU account.  Since I am 
    currently having this done, I need to arrange for you to discontinue 
    it.
    
    Recent changes in DCU policy are forcing me to close my checking 
    account with DCU before September 1, 1991, therefore I no longer desire 
    to have my expenses deposited there.  I realize that, depositing 
    expenses this way, has aided Digital's cost reductions and I regret 
    having to make this change, but I have little choice under the 
    circumstances.
    
    Thank you.
    
    Jim Kiser

    
    Other interesting things from their "Schedule of Fees":
    
    ATM services with savings account			$1.00 per month
    
    Point of Sale transactions (what are these?)	$0.25 per transaction
    
    RSVP (over 3 withdrawals per month)			$10.00 per withdrawal
    
    Certified Check (used to be $0.50??)		$3.00
    
    Stop Payment (used to be $5!!)			$15.00
    
    
    OK, DCU.  There are also MAJOR increases hidden in some of these new
    fees!  Which ones are new?  And which ones have increased and what was
    the old charge?
    
    We are being taken in more ways than one people!
    
    

    A few other items:
    
    "Purchase Security" and "extended protection":  When did these
    "services" show up?  And, who asked for them, and how much is it
    costing the DCU and us?  If it is costing the DCU as much as a penny,
    it is costing us interest and increased fees for a service that I, for
    one, didn't ask for.  Besides, if you read the Ts & Cs, you'll see that
    it's a gimmick.  They only pay for the excess loss over and above what
    your normal insurance doesn't cover.  Please, DCU, take this away.
    
    Second:  "Inactive accounts":  My children have what would be
    considered inactive accounts.  They have small savings accounts set up
    to teach them the value of savings.  Now the $2.50/quarter fee will
    make these accounts cost more than they return.  So much for teaching
    kids good savings habits.

I also called Mary Madden (yesterday) to express my displeasure 
with this new policy.

My major concerns were with the lack of notice and the
uncompetitive pricing.  I was told that the announcement was
within regulations, and encouraged (several times) to shop
around.  I responded that I thought a credit union which is
allegedly owned by the members owed its members more notice than
we got.  And, I don't understand how an institution run for the
benefit of its members needs to charge more for its services than
businesses who need to make a profit.  I got what must be the
party line about this being a business decision.  I also heard
that business is down, the 88,000 members are spread across the
country increasing costs, and loan defaults are up (but are below
the industry average).  And, again, i was encouraged to shop 
around.

I believe the DCU has severely underestimated the response it 
will receive from its members about this new change.  I will shop 
around.  My preliminary research indicates most financial 
institutions in the area are cheaper than doing business with the
DCU. 

I encourage everyone displeased with this decision to call and 
express your opinion.  Ok, so even if you like it, call.  It will 
be interesting to see what happens.

One more thing, the person who answered the phone refered to 
"they" who made the decision.  I was told it was both the Board 
of Directors and high management that decided on this fee 
increase.

Maryellen

	BTW...

		If you try to cash a check at the DCU
		and you are not a member, the check
		cashing fee is $2.00 per item..

		Now, what about the poor guy who doesn't
		have an account, but gets his petty
		cash check (because we no longer get 
		cash from petty cash  (oxymoron maybe))
		, anyways  to stay on subject..  He 
		needs the cash for business, the only
		way is to cash at DCU.. Wham.. $2.00
		charge..

		They seem to make it manditory to at
		least keep a savings account...

		THAT's IT...

		  Lets all of us keep a $5.00 saving
		  account...but no checking accounts.

    Re:  $5.00 savings account.
    
    I was just wondering.  They penalize you $2.50  a quarter for an
    account with less than $100 balance.
    
    What if you only have $5.00 (just so you can cash checks, say)?
    Where are they going to take the $10.00 a year from?  And, what is
    the cost of servicing all those $5.00 a year accounts?
    
    I will find it difficult to totally abandon DCU - at least in the very
    short term future - because I have a car loan and  a 2nd mortgate. 
    However, it would be fairly easy to change from a source of revenue
    (with IRA, savings accounts, weekly deposits - I earn interest, but
    they do too) to a source of expense only (only the loans, and the loan
    holding accounts).  Then, talk about expenses.  What happens if we all
    take our deposits away, and leave them servicing only debt?  Without
    deposits they can't make loans at all.  Then see how much longer they
    last.

    
    Shop around they say:
    
    Well I did...  I called 10 different banks in southern NH area and this
    is what I found:
    
    NOT ONE had a minumal checking account (a reasonable number of free
    checks no interest type) that wouldn't wave the monthly service fee
    (most were $5 per month) if I kept $500 in the account.
    
    MANY would wave the service fee for $300, the lowest was $250.
    
    A LOT didn't calculate the minumum on a daily basis, but rather
    considered that *average* monthly balance.  Where DCU yanks your for
    $2.00 if you fall a penny bellow $1,000.00 for a day, alot of
    commercial institution are more liberal by allowing average monthly
    minimums.
    
    In short, DCUs $1,000.00 average daily balance minumum was *way out of
    wack* with the commercial institutions in the area.
    
    So, DCU, what's this shop around crap suppose to prove, just how bad of
    deal (err.. choice) you giving us???
    
    

    Boy--millions get looted in a real estate scam, but it took a lousy
    $2/month to get my blood boiling...and boy, is it boiling!
    
    I don't doubt that the loan losses had something to do with this.  They
    have gone from having one of the best checking account deals around, to
    the worst.  I don't think it's some sort of miscalculation...they
    appear to be in bad enough shape to require these moves.  Instead of
    this, they might have closed some of the branch offices, but as I've
    just been NEXT-UNSEENing through here, I've seen "we want Bay area
    office", "we want Seattle office", etc.  I think that it's this
    obsession of the members and board to open human-staffed branch
    offices that has driven the DCU to the brink of disaster, possibly to
    pushed over by a real-estate scam and a member exodus.
    
    See you, DCU...and I just ordered 600 checks...
    
    Tim

    RE: "go shop around"

    This attitude is absolutely appalling.  I interpret this as take a hike
    if you don't like it.  Business decision my arse.  There is more going
    on here than we know, and that they are telling us.

    As a member, I want to know DCU expenses.  I want to see how many
    people work for DCU and if they have cutback anywhere.  All these "new
    services" require people to administer them.  I find it no coincidence
    that one of the first menu choices you hear when calling DCU is "enter
    3 for DCU employment".  Digital and everybody else is slimming down,
    cutting back.  What has DCU done to follow suit?  Have salaries been
    increasing?  Have freezes been employed?  Or have they just gone full
    speed ahead with all these new services at the expense of the very
    basic services a credit union is supposed to provide?

    I fear we have created a monster which has now turned on it's creators
    for it's last meal.  With a potential membership base shrinking (DEC)
    can DCU afford the loss of thousands of it's members and survive as a
    financial institution?  I have a substantial deposit from the sale of
    stock that I was planning on making.  Right now that money is going to
    the new institution that my "shopping around" has so EASILY found.  If
    I put it into DCU, heaven knows what tricks they will pull to keep it
    there (30 day notice to withdraw?).  This disaster could create a run
    on DCU that it had better be prepared to handle.

    >So, DCU, what's this shop around crap suppose to prove, just how bad of
    >deal (err.. choice) you giving us???
    
    It certainly shows that, but it also shows something else:
    
    We (DEC) are having Six Sigma implanted in our brains.  One of the
    important points of Total Quality Deployment is making sure that you
    deliver goods and services that customers want.  One way to find out
    what they want (in goods and services) is by asking them.  I don't
    think we were asked.  [Nee, I know so - there was no survey.]  Another
    important mechanism is "benchmarking" - comparing your goods and
    services to others offering similar goods and services.  It would
    appear that the DCU management echelon benchmarked the *existence* of
    fees, but failed to benchmark the magnitude and scope of those fees.
    
    I got the clear message that they understand fees are common, but I
    have no idea how the fees were established, and if they did any
    comparison in the marketplace, then they must know that their fee
    structure is way out of line.  Two possible conclusions come to mind
    here.  (1) They're blind/naive and/or don't care  -or- (2) they really
    want to go out of business and this is the first stage of the fire
    sale.
    

    Oh, here's another chuckle from this morning's phone conversation.
    
    After citing DEC's desire to become "leaner and meaner", I asked what
    DCU has done to trim their fat.  I was told they'd closed the Phoenix
    branch.
    
    Of course they did!  The whole plant was closed.
    
    So, painful as it may be, why not consider closing one of the two
    Marlboro branches?  SHR has a branch and a ATM.  Yet, MRO has two fully
    functional branches about the same distance apart as the two buildings
    in the SHR cluster.

>    <<< Note 253.67 by MPO::WHITTALL "All I can do is 8-) 8-) 8-)...." >>>
>		Now, what about the poor guy who doesn't
>		have an account, but gets his petty
>		cash check (because we no longer get 
>		cash from petty cash  (oxymoron maybe))
>		, anyways  to stay on subject..  He 
>		needs the cash for business, the only
>		way is to cash at DCU.. Wham.. $2.00
    
       Why do you say 'the only way is to cash at DCU'? Why can't he take it
    to any bank where he has an account? After all, his name's on it.
                                        Denny

    	I'm not sure if the DCU realizes this or not, but
    	not many people (I'm mainly speaking for myself)
    	can keep a balance of $1000 in their account.  The
    	way the economy is today, it's almost impossible.
    
    	The way we were notified about this is very irritating,
    	and disappointing.  I read my satment and all the 
    	litterature they sent last night, and I honestly don't
    	recall seeing this.  I have always had a good experience 
        with DCU, up until now.  Their way of notification was 
        poor, and by being a DCU member I feel I've been cheated.
    
        This is just one more headache that I don't need.

DCU's ATMs have recently been hooked up to the network so you can use them
to make withdrawals from other banks.  It seems to me that if your site has
a DCU ATM, you can still have the convenience of an on-site source of cash
without having a DCU account of any kind.  They've definitely shot themselves
in the foot with this one.

    re: .72 (DCU ignorance of fees)
    
    My guess is that DCU has studied the "industry standards" for fees. 
    Unfortunately for DCU, New England has more aggressive competition in
    the banking industry than in many other parts of the country, so
    "industry standard" fees are out of line in N.E. -- right where most of
    the DCU depositers are located!
    
    Now, in the Mid-Atlantic region (where I am) their fee schedule doesn't
    look too bad.  But the problem here is that the HIDDEN costs make the
    fee schedule uncompetitive!  The major hidden cost: the single weekday-
    only daytime-only branch is not sufficient to handle the needs for many
    people.  We have to resort to ATMs at a $1 per shot.  This was
    reasonable, though, as careful planning for withdrawls could still keep
    the costs down.  Now that many people will be paying $2-$5 on top of
    current ATM fees, this picture changes drastically.  Add to this the
    fact that many (and I mean MANY; perhaps even MOST) of the people currently
    employed in the DCO office park are scheduled to be moved to a new
    facility a few miles away in another few months, and you have an
    incovenient bank with only marginally competitive fees and rates!
    
    DCU is quite foolish if it thinks that its single weekday-daytime
    branch with $2-5 checking and $1 ATMs is attractive compared to
    institutions with $(single-digit) checking having branches all over, 
    night-time/weekend hours, and free local ATMs.
    
    Other points (some people may have alluded to these):
    
    This whole mess will undoubtedly cost DCU the direct deposits of many
    DCU members who will take their banking elsewhere.  I wonder what the
    balance point is?  That is, I can't help but wonder at what point the
    reduced total of deposited pay checks will cost DCU more than the fees
    collected on the remaining accounts.  The less the amount on deposit,
    the less DCU can loan.  The less DCU can loan, the less it can earn.
    So I wonder how many lost paychecks it would take before DCU actually
    started to see REDUCED earnings due to fees?
    
    Another issue is growth.  DCU already has the problem that it must fish
    from a stagnant pool.  That is, new DCU members must come from the
    ranks of Digital employees.  Since Digital hasn't been hiring in any
    significant numbers and isn't expected to for probably 2 years or more,
    how is DCU going to attract new members?  They are working hard to push
    current members away.  What happens when the pool of members begins to
    shrink and there is no new influx of members to add to deposits?  Will
    they raise fees yet again, and start this dreadful cycle over again?
    
    It seems that DCU only wants to cater to people who can afford to have
    thousands of dollars hanging around in low-interest checking accounts. 
    But given Digital's current financial tightness and the resulting
    raises, it would seem that the number of people who can afford to do
    this should shrink continually for many months to come.
    
    -- Russ

    
    RE: .73
    
    Not only does the MRO complex have *2* fully staffed branches (MR1 &
    MR4) but there is an ATM in MRO3 and a brand new drive thru teller in
    front of MR1.  I don't know if they have shut down the MR3 ATM when
    this was installed.  Seems a tad excessive.
    
    I would just love to see the rate of growth of employees working for
    DCU over the last 5 years and relate it to all these additional
    services that seem to now cost us a necessary service.  I also want to
    know officer salaries and perks and see if they correspond to banking
    industry norms.  We already know the loan criteria are different for
    officers than for us.
    
    This could be a first.  A self-inflicted run on a banking institution. 
    Maybe being listed as one of the largest credit unions went to their
    heads I guess.  Probably thought they did it on their own.  All the
    very loyal DCU members had nothing to do with it.  In one fell swoop
    that loyalty has been destroyed.  Let's see how DCU makes it without
    the edge WE have given it.
    
    Why do I feel like a passenger on the Titanic?
    

    
    Strategy for making our point:
    
    All members who wish to register their protest over this should go to
    the nearest DCU branch and withdraw all funds down to the current
    minimums.   At the same time, request a pink form to close your
    checking accounts (and others?).  Make sure the teller and/or branch
    manager know why you are doing this.  Tell them you will grant DCU a 1
    week grace period to rescind the current increases.  If at the end of
    the 1 week they are not rescinded, you will return with the completed
    cards to completely close your accounts. 
    
    I would do this right now, but I have to wait for the branch to re-open
    from their mid-day closing!  Just another service I didn't ask for, and
    suffer from.
    
    Will report back on what the response is.
    

    I looked at my information on the NFS Passport-I account (I opened it
    so that I could recieve interest on secondary checking acct, DCU only
    pays on the sharedraft acct, not the secondary -51 acct).  What I found
    was:
    
    	Min balance of $100 or pay a fee of $8.
    	Unlimited checks (but you have to pay to have them printed }8-)} )
        There was also some other "free" goodies including
    		Credit card registration
    		A Keychain that will return if lost (drop in MBX)
    
    I may be moving more accounts there or somewhere else where I get
    service for the funds on deposit.
    
    

    	I found out from "the voice" at the other end at the DCU that
    	these fees are waived for your kids' accounts.  Kids under
    	18 do not need to maintain minimum balances or levels of
    	activity to avoid fees.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    
    
    get it in writing!
    
    

I currently have a portion of my weekly pay deposited directly to both DCU 
share draft account and a savings account; the remainder goes to a checking
account at a local federal savings bank -- Georgia Federal.  Georgia Federal
allows free checking with direct deposit but does not pay interest on checking.

I only use my DCU checking account for paying the mortgage, automobile loan
and an occasional bit of cash here or there so I was thinking about closing 
my checking account there and have all of my current DCU portion deposited 
into DCU savings.  I am told I can still do unlimited withdrawals from savings
so I could withdrawl what I need from savings and deposit it into my local
checking account when needed.  

But then, I got to thinking:  Why keep my savings?  Why not have -all- my 
money deposited into my local bank?  I've called Georgia Federal and they 
said it would be no problem having my savings automatically deposited as well.
And their interest rate currently is 5.5% (higher than DCU's, isn't it?).

I suppose I'll be stopping by one of their offices soon

FWIW:  It may be a pain in the rear to do it, and more costly to Digital, but 
I will gladly submit my travel advance request 2-3 weeks in advance and wait
than have it automatically deposited to my DCU account if I will incur a 
charge to do so.

-Andy

DCU Customer Service is registering complaints by badge number as of a 
few minutes ago, so call and register your complaint.

    re: .84
    
>And their interest rate currently is 5.5% (higher than DCU's, isn't it?).
    
    Last time I looked (a couple of days ago), DCUs LARGEST interest rate
    was 6.0% (actual, not effective yield).  And that was on JUMBO CD's (over
    $50K, I think) and IRAs.  I don't recall standard savings exactly, but
    I think it was about 5.0%.  Checking was under 5%.
    
    -- Russ

>< Note 253.75 by HPSRAD::RIEU "Read his Lips...Know new taxes!" >
>                                    -< ex >-
>
>>    <<< Note 253.67 by MPO::WHITTALL "All I can do is 8-) 8-) 8-)...." >>>
>>		Now, what about the poor guy who doesn't
>>		have an account, but gets his petty
>>		cash check (because we no longer get 
>>		cash from petty cash  (oxymoron maybe))
>>		, anyways  to stay on subject..  He 
>>		needs the cash for business, the only
>>		way is to cash at DCU.. Wham.. $2.00
>    
>       Why do you say 'the only way is to cash at DCU'? Why can't he take it
>    to any bank where he has an account? After all, his name's on it.
>                                        Denny
>

	What I was referring to was those who get there petty cash checks
	and want the cash.. Without having to then deposit/cash them at
	their local bank..  Or those who (finally) get a travel advance
	signed 1 1/2 hours before leaving.. an the only local place is
	a DCU branch..  Of this I speak from experience  :-(

	As a side note..

		One of the people in the office wonder if these new fees
		are being started to help pay the legal fees for the
		lawsuit against the old Prez...

		Sounds crazy...  Maybe, then again.. Maybe not..  :-)

	Csw

    
    Well, just got back from the ZKO branch.  I must admit, I feel terrible
    for the people who work the windows.  They were, and always have been,
    very nice and helpful.  This catastrophic miscalculation by upper
    management and the BoD may cost some very good people their jobs. 
    Sound familiar?
    
    When I told them that I would like a pink card to close my checking 
    account, her response was a saddened "reeeally?"  She asked why and I 
    told her the recent rate increase/service elimination had to be the 
    worse marketing stunt of all times.  DCU was insulting the intelligence 
    of it members to sell it as a new choice.
    
    I then requested all the balances in my accounts, savings, checking,
    RSVP & CDSs.  She said, "You can't change things around to get the free
    checking?"  I just looked at her.  I didn't even have to answer, and
    she said "It's the principle."  I nodded.
    
    I then told her I wanted to close my RSVP account, filled out the card
    and received a check.  The card statement I would loose all interest to
    date (for the quarter).  One months worth in this case.  It's worth it.
    I then showed her the deposit that was planned and will now go
    elsewhere.
    
    She then asked me to take and fill out one of the "Let us Know"
    customersatisfaction cards.  She said she really wanted me to fill it
    out and send it in.  We then stepped through the new "Schedule of
    Fees".  She then explained which ones were new and which ones went up. 
    I asked here specifically about the Stop Payment which I knew increased
    from $5 to $15.  She stated that it was raised to stop certain members
    from abusing it.  It was made the same as NSF to discourage the writing
    of checks and placing a stop payment instead of letting them bounce. 
    I absolutely agreed with their reasons and logic.  I, however, would
    have suggested an escalating stop payment fee, ($5, $10, $15, $20,
    during a calendar year.  Now this is the type of simple explanation
    that goes a LONG way.  The teller should be made a DCU officer!
    
    I then told her I would be back in a week to close out checking if 
    DCU went through with the new "choices".  Meanwhile, the line was
    forming.  Sorry people in line.
    
    I also requested and received a DCU Annual Report.  She gave me a 1990
    Annual Report that was a 9" x 17" foldup.  May enter it later if time
    permits.  Everybody should ask for one and read it.  From the section
    by Chairman of the Board, Mark Steinkrauss:
    
    "Despite the challenges of a troubled regional and national economy in
    1990, DCU continued to be successful.  In the midst of a tumultuous
    year for the financial services industry, we experienced solid growth
    consistent with sound business practices.  DCU's achievement of 13%
    growth in 1990, with assets of $371 million, is directly attributable
    to the loyalty of our members, the dedication of the staff and its
    efforts to provide the best service possibleto our members, and the
    support of Digital Equipment Corporation.  All this is evidenced in the
    fact that DCU is the largest credit union in New England and #50
    nationally."
    
    "Our principle objective is stated in our mission statement: To provide
    the Digital community with diversified, high quality, competitively
    priced, easily understood financial services offered conveniently
    efficiently and helpfully.  This translates into seeking to provide the
    best service possible, competitive lending rates, and attractive rates
    on savings.  We will continue our prudent lending and investment
    practices so that our members' investments remain safe and sound."
    
    
    Can there be any doubt the BoD must go?  And go NOW!
    

I'm as upset as anyone about the way this was handled. However, I really
doubt that this note and its replies will do much to change the situation. For
anyone that needs to vent steam, this is a perfect place, but there are other
"choices".

I'd be real interested in seeing a brand new BoD elected by the membership
from the membership. If and only if that happens, I'll back back, but for now
I simply emptied out my three largest accounts (my kid's college funds). I'll
continue to keep my loans, but not the deposits. Vote with your feet and walk
away from DCU if you disagree with the current management.  You could always
come back if they solve not only the checking fee problem, but the larger
problem as well. The larger problem for me is that I no longer trust the
management of DCU to act in a responsible business manner. I wouldn't be at
all surprised to see a run on the bank as a result of this fiasco. I don't
want my money tied up when FDIC has to step in to decide who gets money first.
I'm already out for the majority of the deposits.

    /egp

    
    The number to call is DTN 223-6735, ex. 207.  This is Mary Madden's
    extension in the Communications Dept.  You're likely to get a
    recording.

Just to let you all know;
    A special extraction containing the stripped topic replies since the
    last regular extraction and note 253.89 (inclusive) was forwarded to
    DCU. (See note 2.0 for normal extraction information).
    
Carl Leeber
Batched Notes Extractor

P.S. I'm going back on vacation for two weeks so I will be unable to
forward to DCU until I return 26-AUG-1991.

I called Mary Madden, and left my message with voicemail.  That's a good way
to do it.

The message was a verbal version of this:
================================================================================
Note 255.9       RESERVED: Open Letters to DCU RE: Checking FEES          9 of 9
MLTVAX::SCONCE "Bill Sconce"                         15 lines   9-AUG-1991 15:33
                                -< I vote "no" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To:  DCU

Re:  New checking-account fee structure "choices"


Dear DCU,

I have today withdrawn all but $10 from each of my DCU checking and savings
accounts.

In the happy event that DCU reconsiders and elects to continue offering savings
and checking as it has since the days when I joined (what was then called) WCU,
I shall be pleased to re-deposit my money and offer you my thanks.

-Bill Sconce

Not to defend the imposition of fees for normal services, but $15 for a stop
payment is typical in New England banks.

    	Many banks will charge the stop payment fee ONLY if the bearer
    	of the check attempts to cash it.  This practice is helpful
    	if you (or the bearer) have lost a check and you replace it 
    	with another.  You can then rest assured that if the first 
    	check is found, it cannot be cashed because the stop-payment
    	will catch it.  But if it remains lost forever you do not have
    	to waste the $15.00.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

One other new fee that bugs me (I have the same complaints as everyone else):
They will now charge $5 for a replacement ATM card!  (It's listed on that chart
of the new "services.")  So when my card stops working through NO FAULT OF MY
OWN (which has happened to me a few times - I don't mistreat my card or keep it
near other magnetic stuff or anything), I will now have to pay $5 to get a new
one?!  Phooey!!!

This is all very discouraging.

							-- Nina

Some observations and comments, having just read the previous 96 replies -

 First of all, I agree in principle with everything everyone's said. I'm
 as ripped as anyone about this new "choice" DCU is giving me.

 - Pulling out our accounts and watching them squirm -
   The idea's a good one, but I sorely fear it won't happen that way.
   80000 members don't read this conference. Some may not even regularly
   look at their statements to learn about this new "feature". Some may
   be in positions that prevent them from taking such an action. Some
   may feel "uncomfortable" reacting that way for one reason or another.
   There may be many reasons why some people won't pull their accounts,
   but I'll bet that the majority of members will just go on like nothing
   happened. That's human nature.

 - Replace the BoD -
   I've certainly been a proponent and cheerleader for this action since
   the Mangone screwup, but for the same or similar reasons as above, the
   majority of the membership will still vote for the incumbents (or not
   vote at all which I believe is the equivalent) and the clowns will remain
   right where they are. I wish I could be proven wrong on these predictions,
   but I'm willing to take odds that it won't happen.

 - The "Four reasons" for instituting a checking account fee -
   I contend that there's a fifth which overshadows all the others. A reason
   that really required the charge, and that the other four are a polite
   cover up to pull the wool over our eyes.
   I contend that the DCU's losses from the Mangone fiasco are very real
   and significant and that this is a source of revenue to help cover that
   loss. (Unless they can prove there were no losses, my contention is
   arithmetically correct, if nothing more.)
   I further contend that the BoD recommended and approved this "feature"
   to enable the DCU to bring in revenues to recover from the Mangone loss
   before things had an opportubity to get nasty with respect to federal
   investigations, etc. I.E., it was a means for the incompetent clowns
   on the BoD to cover their own butts.
   If this is not the case, of course I'll welcome their response here, but,
   as always, I will not hold my breath in anticipation of such response.

 - I predict that regardless of the furor raised here, or the number of
   calls they receive, or the number of dollars removed from closed accounts,
   that the new charges will take place on 9/1 as scheduled. Let's face it -
   DCU is big and has no need to be responsive.

 - For those expressing to DCU _INTENT_ to close accounts, I'd be very wary
   about that ability of theirs to hold your dough for 60 days. This would
   be a good time for them to exercise their muscle and enforce that
   prerogative of theirs. Just to show us, ya know. If I were intending to
   close out my accounts I'd give 'em no warning at all - Just do it.

 - Finally, if I am wrong, and if a significant number of member/owners
   _DO_ start pulling their accounts to the extent that it starts to
   "hurt" DCU, I feel sorry for those left with debt to the DCU who
   need to remain there, because I see DCU's reaction as being a quick
   clampdown on violations to T's&C's on loans. "Yes - we know you've
   only missed your payment by two days, but that _does_ give us the option
   to begin foreclosure proceedings on your house, reposess your car,
   and put some nasty smudges on your credit rating."

I've said it a buhzillion times, but I'll say it again folks. It's not
the DCU that's at fault here. It's the idiot BoD who oversee their
activities. DCU can't do spit without their approval. Steinkrauss & Co.
should be out on their ears.

-Jack

PS. By all means, if you're planning on closing your accounts, don't let
   anything I've said disuade you.

    One small correction,   the fees don't start until 10/1.  
    
    I also talked to Mary and a couple others.  The i don't give a dam what
    you think or do attitude is appaulling.
    
    I wonder, does the uproar over this incident mask another?  If everyone
    is
    focusing their attention in one direction....
    

    I don't know who at the DCU dreamed up the:
    
    "You can choose any color you want, as long as it is black"
    							Henry Ford - 1908
    
    intro to their "More choices More Options!" pamplet but my first
    reaction was.
    
    Yep DCU that's exactly what you are proposing to me: "Pay more or Pay
    more".
    
    Yes DCU my account will be closing pretty soon and I have $15,000
    sitting in my RSVP account.
    
    Up yours basically,
    
    Dave
               

    The following is posted for the sake of information and discussion and
    is not an advertisement for any financial institution.
    
    I lived in New England until 1985 and still have relatives in Mass and
    NY.  I know for a fact that the banks in NE have much better programs
    than here (Maryland).  I picked up brochures for 3 local banks today. 
    This is what I found:
    
    
INSTITUTION	CONDITIONS FOR		SPECIAL
NAME		FREE CHECKING		NOTES
--------------	----------------------	--------------------------------------
MD National	Direct Deposit, OR	BankLine (equivalent to EasyTouch,
Bank		$500 Minimum Daily	  except that it includes histories
		  Balance, OR		  of last 6 checks processed, last 6
		$1500 Minimum Daily	  ATMs, last 3 deposits, ATM locations,
		  Savings Balance	  and much more)
					Free ATM service at over 250 ATMs
					Access to MOST and CIRRUS ATMs at
					  $1.50 per transaction
					Many, many branches with evening and
					  Saturday hours


Carroll County	Direct Deposit, OR	Free ATM service at bank ATMs
Bank & Trust	Senior Citizen, OR	Access to MOST and PLUS ATMs at
		$600 Minimum Balance,	  $1.00 per transaction
		  OR			Branches with evening and Saturday
		$600 Minimum Savings	  hours
		  Balance


First National	$450 Minimum Balance	EasyBank Debit VISA Card
Bank of MD				PhoneFirst (EasyTouch-like) system
					  with ability to check deposits,
					  balances, etc.  First two calls
					  per month free, $.50 thereafter.
					  Calls to check deposits and rates
					  always free.
					Free ATM service at bank ATMs
					Access to MOST, PLUS, VISA ATMs at
					  $.75 to $2.00 per transaction
					  (depending on machine & transaction)
					Many branches with evening and
					  Saturday hours

All of the above also have interest checking with $1000 minimums and interest
rates ranging from 5.0% to current money market rates.
    
    It appeared that I erred in a previous note when I said that DCU was
    marginally competitive.  It appears that DCU isn't competitive at all!
    
    So far, it looks like I'll be banking with MD National.
    
    -- Russ

    It's interesting that DCU tries to compare itself to local banks. 
    That's why I originally went to DCU, because it didn't compare to any
    local banks.  It's rates were better, it's service was comparable, it's
    fees were lower and it was more convenient.  Now, it's rates are
    comparable, it's service worse, and looks like, from my survey
    yesterday, it's fees are higher.
    
    -Garth

If the number of members with very low balances are accurate, then
you can view this as a means to reduce cost.  Why should the DCU
be burdened with the admin costs of maintaining accounts with low
balances? 

Hopefully, the reduced expenses, will result in higher interest rates.

>        <<< Note 253.97 by 16BITS::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dog face)" >>>
>                   -< Disgusting, simply disgusting . . .  >-
>
>I've said it a buhzillion times, but I'll say it again folks. It's not
>the DCU that's at fault here. It's the idiot BoD who oversee their
>activities. DCU can't do spit without their approval. Steinkrauss & Co.
>should be out on their ears.

You must be joking.  It was the president that got the DCU involved in the
real estate scam!  I blame the board for failure of their oversight duties,
but I can understand how a group of volunteers would be somewhat at the
mercy of "professional bankers".  Don't look at this fee increase by itself
-- look at the whole picture.  I'm sure the board has made mistakes, and
should be replaced, but I can't excuse the DCU for their part in this
fiasco.


>                       <<< Note 253.102 by SLOAN::HOM >>>
>                      -< valid means to reduce expenses? >-
>
>If the number of members with very low balances are accurate, then
>you can view this as a means to reduce cost.  Why should the DCU
>be burdened with the admin costs of maintaining accounts with low
>balances? 
>
>Hopefully, the reduced expenses, will result in higher interest rates.

Unfortunately, first we get to pay the fees, then we wait to find out if
interest rates are increased.  If this really was the problem (which I
doubt) they should have made the move before letting rates fall so low.
Why should I leave $1000 in a DCU checking account getting less than 5%? 
Especially if I can get free checking elsewhere.

Tim

    
    If you ask me, checking account balances are supposed to be low.  Keep 
    enough in there to handle your bills and put the rest in savings.
    
    I have a question.  Can you have just a savings account (shares) and
    not a checking (share drafts) AND get no charge?  Maybe what a lot of 
    these low-balance checking account people want is just a savings
    account, but just signed up for the shares/share drafts 'cause it was 
    all free anyway way back when they signed on.
    
    - Sean

>< Note 253.98 by ILUVNH::BADGER "One Happy camper ;-)" >
>                     -< I'd like to know the whole story >-
>
>    One small correction,   the fees don't start until 10/1.  
>    

	What makes you think this... The pamphlets I get in the mail
	all state that the fees/charges are effective 9/1/91..

	You may not see the actual charges until your October bill,
	but you start losing interest, and are accountable for
	minimum deposits as of 9/1..

	Csw

    
    RE: .102
    
    I agree that DCU should target inactive accounts that add to it's
    overhead.  However, it was DCU policy in the past to REQUIRE checking
    accounts in certain circumstances.  Now that their policies have lead
    to a large number of inactive accounts, they want to slap US with a
    fee.  But DCU has targetted almost everybody with this latest fiasco. 
    I can't imagine the overhead costing anywhere near what will be
    generated in fees and interest not being paid.  This is a MASSIVE fee
    generating change by DCU to bring money in for a reason.  And I think
    we all know what that reason is.  We just know of the real estate
    "impropriety" that transpired.  Makes you wonder if there may have been
    other "activities" going on.  All this just really makes you wonder.  
    
    My advice, get out while you still can.  A lot of banks and S & L's
    were proclaimed to be solid the day before they locked the doors.
    
    Trust is something not easily gained.  DCU seems to have lost quite a
    bit of it in a very short time period.  If you can't trust your own
    credit union, it's time to find an institution you can trust. 
    

FWIW, Mary Madden returned the call I left on her voicemail on Friday.

She made it clear that she was calling to talk, not listen, that DCU
"has a responsibility to oversee operations in such a way as to...",
and that there is no chance whatsoever that initiation of the new
fee structure on 1 September would be reconsidered.  She then encouraged
me to "shop around"...

> She then encouraged me to "shop around"...

I already have.  Several months ago, I switched my direct deposit to Polaroid
Credit Union (since renamed Direct Credit Union).  They have services which
match *my* lifestyle, like direct access to funds (free ATM access at all
Xpress 24, NYCE, CIRRUS, Yankee 24, etc., and even those ATMs in supermarkets
that BayBanks charges you a fee to use), free checking with either direct
deposit or a $500(?) balance, better rates than DCU, an EasyTouch type phone
service, an 800 number for customer service, and more.

I've kept my DCU accounts active due to an outstanding loan I have from them,
but with the new fees making it even less attractive to do business with DCU,
I guess it's time to complete the switch and take my money to another bank.

The convenience of a DCU branch where I work just isn't enough to justify
paying/losing more money.  Considering the number of times a year I need to
go to the credit union branch office, I'll survive.  In this day and age of
free ATM access, I find myself going into an actual branch office less often
anyway.

Bye, DCU.

Jim

       I started savings and checking accouts at Merchants National Bank in
    Leominster on Sat. I'll close my checking as soon as my Direct Deposit
    change form is processed. I have to keep $5 in Savings until I
    refinance my stock loan.
                                       Denny

	I'm really rippin' about this fee-stuff!  It makes me mad as hell
	to  see  my  credit union doing this stuff to me and my fellow CU
	members.  And I hate this "Official Spokesperson  Says  'Go  Shop
	Around' " stuff that others have reported.

	My  first  temptation  is to pull the whole shootin' works out of
	DCU, and hoof it to some other bank or CU  who  won't  pull  this
	kind  of  stuff,  or  at least isn't afraid to call a rate hike a
	rate hike (and not "More choices and  options").   
	
	On  the  other  hand,  for those of you/us who enjoy fighting and
	getting Bad Things fixed, there's always the choice to  turn  and
	get after 'em.   Which is what I think needs to happen here.
	
	It's  OUR  credit  union,  spending/loaning/losing OUR money.  If
	you're scared, diversify with other savings institutions.  But if
	you  turn  and run, then you're giving up something which belongs
	to US (indeed is held up as a fringe benefit and a positive thing
	about  being  employed  by  Digital  --  I  remember my personnel
	interview well on this subject).  Let's not raise the white  flag
	yet.   Let's raise our own Skull and Crossbones and fight.  We're
	not exactly a bunch of lemmings  here  without  our  own  set  of
	"Choices  and  Options"  (and  lawyers, petitions, letter-writing
	campaigns, pickets, appeals to DEC's BoD and other general 
	uproariousness).

	Remember, you are a SHAREHOLDER in DCU, not just a customer.
			
	Illegitimi non Carborundum!  (And no, I won't translate that here)
	
/Chris

    Maybe I'm all wet, but I still think the DCU is a good deal..All the
    banks that I talked with still want a min of $500 which I can't afford.
    I think $2 a month is a great deal compared to local banks.  Although
    one of the reasons I joined DCU was for the freebees..But life and
    circumstances to change..
    Mike, happy to have a checking account and a job for now...

    re: .112
    
    In my shopping, the DCU was the WORST of EVERY FINANCIAL INSTITUTION
    that I checked.
    
    How you can think that the DCU is still a good deal is beyond me.  The
    DCU requires $1000+ to not have a monthly fee.  *NO OTHER NH BANK* has
    that requirement.  The DCU requires $1000+ to pay interest.  *NO OTHER
    NH BANK* has that requirement.  Also, the DCU interest rates are lower
    than nearly *ANY* other bank around.
    
    I'm after zero fee, and decent interest.  I can do that for a $100
    minimum in NH banks.  I can do that at the DCU for $1000.  Which is the
    better deal?  Yes, the monthly rate is higher at local banks *IF* you
    are charged the monthly rate.  I don't expect to be.  But even if I am,
    the interest earned on $100-$1000 each month will easily make up the
    occasional difference.

    
    I just "shopped around" with 1st Safety Fund Bank in Gardner (across
    from Grossman's), and here's what their checking account is like:
    
    Free checks (printing, that is...)
    Free checking, NO FEES at all!
    No interest paid, but I figured out that with the checks at DCU costing
    $11 a bunch, and the fees, and the lousey interest rate on my checking
    account $$'s anyway, it's worth the switch. And I get the check copies
    back, and don't have to pay $1.00 a copy for lousey quality copies from
    microfilm anyway. And I can just keep enough in the checking account to
    cover the checks, and not much more. So I can put the rest in a decent
    savings account that pays better than DCU's paltry rates. I'm bailing
    out before this ship sinks, and it will, judging by the attitude of the
    DCU management we've been hearing about.
    
    Fred (soon to be ex-passenger of the DCU Titanic)

    Jim left Digital at the end of June and is now working for another
    company.  He is getting paid every other week, but still has automatic
    deposit to the DCU.  So, even if we kept $1,000 in the checking
    account, we'd still get charged the fee since the new rule states
    WEEKLY automatic deposit.
    
    3 more members (Jim, myself & our son) soon to be leaving...
    
    Roberta

    I was outraged to have found out on such short notice. After reading
    the first 20 replies or so I have to agree with all . 
    
    	Reasons for this increase (IMHO)
    
    	Make up $10,000,000.00 in losses to the former DCU president !
    
    	I too will check out another bank with free checking and that will
    be my third choice.
    
    	In reference to the Ford quote. How much "RED INK" will flow from
    this DCU blunder.
    
    	Mike Turro
    

    
    having only read the last few (I've just started reading this file
    because of this "new options" business)..  I think that if folks 
    similar to .111 want to hang on to that 'leaking washing machine'
    and keep pouring money into it hoping the leaks will slow or stop..
    fine - let'm.   I also think, that if others of us  wish to seek
    for other washing machines that perhaps don't leak at all or as
    much - we should (and perhaps post our findings here for others to
    see and benifit from). 
    
    Personally, it's been nice having all the conviences of DCU (such as
    closing for lunch and at 4pm so you have to go during working hours
    to get there  - and heaven forbid your building doesn't have an office
    or a teller machine.. so now your late for work or have to leave
    early), but I'm not paying for the conviences of MY money.   I have
    another checking accout all lined up that pays interest on $25 min bal
    with no monthly fees.. Plus..  they're open during lunch all week and
    till 6pm on thurs and fri. 
    
    Just my $0.02 worth I guess...
    
    K-
    
    - just an addendum....   if you think about it...  next time your near
    any banking establishment, check out the size and quality of their
    buildings.   Who do you suppose is paying for that..?  and now they
    want more to continue to deal with YOUR money..   wake up America...
    Cash worked for how many years..?   A little inconvienient your
    saying..?  Well how inconvienient is it to pay that bill while your
    right there at the grocery store..?   Guess I should shut up before I
    really boil over...

    There are several advantages to doing banking at DCU:
    
    1)  For those who have a DCU in their building, it is MUCH more
    convenient than doing business elsewhere.  I figure that the $2.00
    fee would be quickly used up by driving to another bank even a few
    times a month.
    
    2)  The NCUA, which insures credit unions is in a much more secure
    position than any of the other Federal agencies which insure banks,
    and most other credit unions are difficult to get into.
    
    3)  The fees are not all that high.
    
    4)  From what I have seen, the DCU staff is significantly more
    competent than most of the banks which I've seen in this area. (Near
    Andover).
    
    If you shop around, you can probably find a better deal at other
    banks (I found some similar deals from other banks), but I don't
    think its worth the inconvenience.

Beware...if you close your account -right now- you'll lose your interest
for the quarter.

My plan is to wait until very early October, absorb the$2 or $4 fee, which ever 
it ends up being, and then close my accounts.

BobW

	Re: .119

	Or, alternatively, just leave enough money in the account to keep it
active and accruing interest and then withdraw that "placeholder" after the
start of the next quarter on Oct 1.

								-craig

    Hang on a minute. I've heard about the ex-president of DCU losing us
    varying sums of money, viz:
    
    	$75million (source, Boston Globe)
    	$10million (source, this notesfile)
    	$nothing   (source, Mary Madden, DCU. I don't believe it).
    
    Now, if all those 80,000 DCU members had to pay their $2/month, the
    extra revenue to DCU would be $1.9million per year. If you take the
    $10million loss figure above, that means it will take more than 5 years
    to get the loot back.
    
    I sense there must be some kind of connection.
    
    Question: How much profit has DCU made over the last 5 years? Is there
    a trend?
    
    Ray

    RE:253.110 That is NOT the DCU number but mine and I DON'T work for
    DCU.  The correct no. is DTN 223-8444.  
    
    Patti Thompson
    U.S. Personnel Systems

I put the wrong number in the now-deleted 253.110

I apologize to the person whose number I entered.  I realize that the
consequences must have been pretty obnoxious.  I am sorry.

\Joe

    Re .many:                                                 
    
    Having been on vacation when the announcement hit my mailbox, this all
    came as a surprise to me.  I've held my tongue for a day, trying to put
    it all in perspective.  Time's up, so here are a few random comments.
    
    1.	I have direct deposit of more than $100 per paycheck to my DCU share
    	draft account, but rarely keep its balance above $1000.  That means
    	I'm looking at $2/month to keep it open.
    
    2.	Moving $1000 from other savings to the share draft account would
    	waive the monthly fee (and cause the account to bear interest).
    
    3.	The monthly interest on $1000 is $4.17 at 5% APR.
    
    4.	My BayBank account requires a $2000 balance (in checking or
    	companion savings) to waive MUCH HIGHER service charges.  A number
    	(more than one) of other options are offered that allow for
    	free checking, even on interest-bearing NOW accounts.
    
    5.	I have a 5-figure IRA account at DCU.  I believe it SHOULD be
    	applicable toward fee waivers.
    
    6.	The two-week prior notice we received is UNACCEPTABLY short.
    
    7.	DCU has stupid operating rules that lead to excessive holds on
    	deposits and non-acceptance of endorsements that meet the
    	requirements of the Uniform Commercial Code and Massachusetts law.
    
    8.	DCU has NO ATMs near my home.  Having one near my office doesn't
    	help much.  BayBank has X-Press 24 machines throughout the area
    	and doesn't charge me anything to use them.  I'm NOT willing to
    	pay $1 to get access to my account when I'm near my home.
    
    9.	DCU obviously hopes that its members will increase their savings
    	rate.  Never mind the 8000 accounts that keep low balances and
    	don't generate enough income to cover their costs.  What DCU needs
    	is to increase its deposits (and to pay as little as possible upon
    	same) so it can dilute the losses from its lousy loan portfolio.
    
    10.	DCU continuously underestimates its members.  While there's a LOT
    	of inertia in one's banking relationship, it makes NO SENSE to take
    	actions that serve to anger one's customers.  How can DCU expect to
    	receive our continued TRUST if they aren't willing to talk candidly
    	about the financial condition of the institution?  The announcement
    	of Mr. Mangone's sudden departure looked like a good beginning in
    	this regard, but the sugar-coated fee increase was two steps back.
    	*** PLEASE DCU, TALK TO US AS BUSINESS PARTNERS!!! ***
    
    I'm still evaluating my own actions.  For the short term, moving $1000
    to my primary DCU share draft account (and keeping it there) will
    negate any monthly charges and cost less than $2 in lost interest.
    I can't say that the answer will be the same for my other accounts.

    re IRA accounts counting towards fee waivers
    
    To give credit where credit is due, while I'd agree with most other
    comments regarding DCU's stupidity, IRAs not counting towards a fee
    waiver isn't their fault.  That's a blessing granted by our "friends"
    in Washington (Hi, I'm your congressman, I'm here to do you a favor).
    
    IRAs are wrapped in regulations to make sure you can't receive any
    benefit from them without formally withdrawing money and paying taxes
    on it.  For example, IRAs cannot be considered in approving or
    disapproving loan applications (this I know for certainty).  While I
    haven't read a description of the actual regulation, I'm certain that
    they cannot be used to justify waiver of fees.  If they were, the IRS
    would consider the waived fee as a "withdrawal" from the IRA.  
    
    Sure, $2/month is a bit picayune.  But I can imagine fees that would
    amount to several hundred dollars a year (e.g., brokerage commisions
    for an active stock trader).  And I can imagine opening an IRA that
    provided below market returns in return for waiving said fees.  That is
    tantamount to withdrawing the fees from a normal IRA.  It ain't
    allowed.  And DCU isn't allowed to consider IRAs in waiving fees.

re Note 253.2:

> 	"Choice" is the watchword of the American consumer today, as well it
> should be.
  
        What utter contempt for the members!

        Bob

    Loans are down...I wonder why???  Have you ever checked with the
    members and evaluated how many loans were with "other" institutions
    especially for auto loans...How many of us working POOR can afford the
    20-30 % down payment plus TAX & Li.  I would rather have my loan thru
    DCU if it was still cheaper than an outside source.  Maybe we need to
    rethink the policy!
    

I just saw an interesting piece of mail which is apparently circulating on
the Net regarding this subject. I neither have, nor wish to obtain, permission
to repost it here, but the tail end of the message says something to the effect
that "If we all complain formally, they [DCU] will have to do away with the
charge".

Unless I'm mistaken, nothing could be further from the truth. "They" don't
have to do a damn thing unless they want to, regardless of how many
complaints they get.

-Jack

    On the issue of checking charges:  How about a compromise:
    
    I'd be willing to live with the fee structure if they changed an "and"
    to an "or".
    
    Currently, you get free checking:
    
    	If (you have CDs in excess of $2500) or ( (you have direct deposit
    		of $100+ weekly) and (your balance does not drop below
    		$1000) )
    
    A subtle change would fix this for me:
    
    	If (you have CDs in excess of $2500) or ( (you have direct deposit
    		of $100+ weekly) *or* (your balance does not drop below
    		$1000) )         ^^
    
    
    This would encourage more people to use direct deposit *and* save DEC
    payroll money too (but, then again, maybe everyone already does).

    re: .127

    FWIW
    
    I just bought a car with $500.00 down (actually I applied my rebate, so NO
    cash out of my pocket) and got a 11.50% interest loan from GMAC.  If I
    remember correctly DCU wanted around 13.00% for a 100% financed auto
    loan.

    re: .125:  
    
    Ed, what you said is logical, and in fact, I was all ready to accept
    that as the explanation, until:
    
    WCIS (Worcester Counter Institution for Savings, a central Mass bank
    with lots of branches) has free checking with an IRA over $2500. 
    However, they have a $15.00/year service fee, and their IRA interest
    rate isn't real great

    If I read the WCIS brochure correctly (yesterday) they offered free
    checking with interest if you had a direct deposit. I'll double check
    that.

    I still like the idea of the before/after service charge comparison.
    Except instead of the b.s about more delinquencies, etc., they should
    just be honest about it:
    
                   rate before discovering    rate after discovering
                   Mangone embezzled $70m     Mangone embezzled $70m
    Sharedraft:    ...                        ...
    
    
    _kb

  I knew that we depositors would have to somehow make up the losses that the
former DCU president incurred, so I wasn't surprised when DCU changed its fee
structure. But of course I was distressed. 
  Re branch office hours: As of June 30 I had worked in DEC for 10 years
without an on-site branch (14 years total). On the rare occasions when I went
to a branch in Marlboro, it was always open at lunch time. On starting at LKG,
I checked the branch office hours. What a joke! LKG is a big plant and some
people have to walk a considerable distance to get from their work area to the
branch. 

    According to a friend, the DCU branches now have some type of letter
    you can sign inorder to protest this change. We need to get the word
    out to everyone in order to get as many of these letters to the BoD.
    		Cindy
    

    	They apparently think that since Dukaka sp? :*) raised fees and
    fines in Massachusetts and got away with it, DCU can do the same thing.
    If a Governor and presidential candidate does something it must be OK.
    Right?

    	They forgot that Mass is in the toilet because of what Dukaka did
    and DCU will shortly be in the toilet with MA.

    	On the other hand, the $1000.00 is only a weeks pay for most
    of us.

    			Arnie

    re: .136
    
>    	On the other hand, the $1000.00 is only a weeks pay for most
>    of us.
    
    I didn't see a smiley face attached to that statement.
    
    I can assure you that there is a sizable number of DECcies who don't
    even come CLOSE to a net paycheck of $1000 per week.  Nor, at current
    raise levels, are many of these people likely to break that level 
    within the next decade.
    
    $1000.00 is far from a trivial sum, I assure you.
    
    -- Russ
       Digital Services/EIS

    Re: .136 and application of the Mass Miracle strategy to the DCU:
    
    I had a humorous thought.  I think this whole thing is a conspiracy
    between Mikey and the Public Relations outfit that dreamed up the
    glossy brocuhre that was supposed to trick us into thinking that this
    was good for us.
    
    On the other hand, if they'd been successful, Mikey would have a PR
    firm that could get him elected president or maybe even appointed King
    of England.

I don't know if anyone noticed, but with everyone talking about closing
checking accounts:

There is a monthly fee (it's only a dollar, but it's still a fee) for ATM usage
if you have a savings-only account.

						Brian

     
                                                   Written :: 13-Aug-1991

   As you all know by now the DCU has informed us that our checking accounts
   will be taking on a new twist, LifeStyle checking.  A checking account that
   is designed to give us flexibility and unlimited access to our funds. 

   The DCU boasts that the "LifeStyle" checking has "More Choices" and will
   present "More Options".  They go ahead and quote Henry Ford, "You can choose
   any color you want, as long as it is black."  Then you open the pamphlet and
   you are astonished.  You think to yourself, is there more than this or do 
   they take me for a total idiot.  That was my impression of this "New" 
   checking not offered but rather thrown upon us by the DCU.

   What the people at DCU are trying to tell us in their quaint little way is,
   they will be charging us a fee for our once "FREE" checking.  I find it 
   quite comical the way they went about this.  Making it sound like we are 
   getting outstanding benefits with this "New" checking account.  When all 
   that we are getting is raked over the coals.

   Remember back a few months when the DCU sent out the real reasons why the
   President of their establishment was fired.  Well to refresh your memory,
   he single-handedly stole 70,000,000.00 or so dollars right out from under
   our noses.  Now it's time to recover the money by passing the collection
   tray to the members. 

   I don't agree with the increase although I don't feel the DCU will change
   that.......but, I am appalled at the way it is being handled.  Again the 
   "poor" are taxed and the "rich" are getting the full benefit of the 
   thievery rained upon us. 

   Speaking for myself, a balance of 1,000 dollars at "all" times is not an
   easy task.  Especially considering the economy and the hard times Digital
   is facing within. 

   It is sad to say that politics are so rampant throughout our society that
   even our financial institution isn't autonomous from its graft.  It's also 
   not enough to have to put up with this type of rhetoric in the press but 
   now the DCU puts out a pamphlet that is totally ludicrous.  It is an utter
   insult to our intelligence and financial well being. 

   If the DCU really gave us a choice, I would choose black.....

 
                                Steve
                                                       

_sbn

    

    
    I stopped by DCU headquarters this morning and had a very pleasant and
    informative 2 hour conversation with Mary Madden.  Nice use of vacation
    time huh?
    
    We covered many topics and she was extremely helpful.  She provided me 
    with this years monthly statements of condition, a sample petition for 
    running for the BoD, almost all DCU Annual Reports dating back to when 
    DCU opened and the DCU Election Guidelines (not part of the bylaws).  I 
    will be combing through this new material tonight.  I'm still awaiting
    word whether I can have access to the full report from the auditors.
    
    She said DCU will be issuing a statement today.  I can't say exactly
    what it will contain or address (Mangone, checking fees???), just have
    to wait and see.  See flatly stated that DCU WILL be imposing the new
    checking 'choices' as it is necessary due to the reasons already given. 
    Also, sound business practice.  However, deposits being down is 
    inaccurate.  They are increasing.  Not sure if they are anymore.
    
    I also communicated directly to her mine, and many others, displeasure
    with the 'choices' brochure.  I said many, including myself, considered
    it insulting.  She didn't quite agree but hey, she's got a right to her
    opinion.  After all she does work for DCU.  I also mentioned that the
    overriding message coming out of DCU seems to be "shop around".  Here,
    she and DCU may be taking a bum rap.  Usually this is one statement in
    a long conversation being offered as friendly advice I guess.  I
    mentioned that those words really do tend to stick in people's minds no
    matter what else was discussed and they may consider dropping it.  I
    also pointed out that people ARE shopping around and almost without
    exception have found better deals.  So DCU may be offering good advice
    and really burning themselves in several ways.  She said there were
    some people who were satisfied with or understood the changes and were
    not leaving.  I must say that's hard to believe but who knows?
    
    I asked what the basis of the "DCU hasn't lost anything" statement was
    and it was as I suspected.  They anticipate recovering money from a $10
    million dollar civil suit against Mr. Mangone, $6 million (max.) from the
    bonding agency and the sale of the property involved.  Nothing has been
    collected on the first two yet.  She said many lawyers are working on
    it (great:-().  I don't know if they have been able to dispose of any
    of the real estate involved.  I guess we can at least look forward to a
    seperate line item on next year's statements labeled "Legal Expenses". 
    
    Total value of the participation loans was $18 million.  There were
    several of these (less than 20) made.  She defended them as
    "investments" by DCU and that they had been cleared by the auditors and
    NCUA. This is where we disagreed.  I told her that I considered them
    loans to non-DCU members and that as such, they were contrary to the
    DCU bylaws.  The names on the loans were trust companies, not
    individuals.  The loans were originated at Barnstable Credit Union and
    DCU bought into them in varying degrees (50-90%).  All were qualified
    by Barnstable CU and reviewed by DCU for completeness (proper
    documentation).  I asked whether DCU performed any of their own
    verification and the answer was no.  I then asked if I walked into DCU
    with all the proper forms filled out and documentation, if I could get
    a loan with no independent verification.  Of course I could not.  This
    I feel is where the DCU BoD (who approved all of these) has failed
    miserably.  It would seem to me that loans of these amounts and sound
    business practice would require DCU verification.  Not just rubber
    stamping documentation received from another source.  Anyways, we
    disagreed on these very major points.  Everybody will see it
    differently I'm sure.
    
    I asked for pre-change versions of Article 3, Section 5a dealing with 
    the 60 day notice of withdrawal and also Article 6 (Elections), 
    Section 3 which was deleted entirely.  These were very recent changes.
    
    I asked why nominations have never been taken for the Credit Committee
    and Supervisory Committee as stipulated in Article 7, Section 5a. 
    Didn't get much of an answer here.  Awaiting a more detailed response.
    
    I also told her I thought the bylaws needed to be added to in the
    areas of public disclosure of the interests of DCU BoD and it's senior
    management.  That all usch interests should be fully disclosed in the
    annual report, along with compensation paid to them, as Digital does.
    
    All in all a very good conversation and she will be getting back to me
    on many items that are unresolved.  She is a very nice person and doing
    a tough job in a very difficult time.  Try to seperate the message from
    the messenger when speaking with her.  She does listen well.  I just
    hope the senior management and BoD listen as well as she does.
    
    Will be back when I have more...
    

    
    RE: .140
    
    The amount DCU is dealing with concerning the participation loans is
    $18,000,000.  Not $70 million.  The NCUA has a seperate suit brought
    against people involved with the Barnstable CU (including Mangone) for
    $47,000,000.  DCU is NOT part of that action.
    
    $18 million is bad enough, $70 million would have closed the doors long
    ago.
    

Re: previous notes regarding 9/1 vs 10/1 as date new rates go into effect.

It's my understanding (based on phone conversation with DCU yesterday) that 
although the new schedule is effective September 1, the service fees are
applied at the end of the statement period. 

So, just as people here have noted that if you withdraw, you don't get interest,
it also applies that if you close your checking account before the end of the
period, you won't be assessed the charges.

Specifically, I was told that the actual date the first fees would be applied
would be Sept. 29th -- close to, but not identical to "10/1".

(I probably will close my checking account, but don't have any other plans to
close down all DCU business.)

	/Marvin

    I know I'm dating myself on this and showing that I don't read my
    inserts very often, but when did the money market checking go away. 
    There was a time where funds in the checking account below a certain
    amount earned a small amount of interest.  Above this amount, they
    earned money market fund interest.
    
    While choices were being offered, why wasn't this one reinstituted?
    
    The biggest problem I have with all of this is that I don't see any
    choices.  I see that I will be charged for something that always used
    to be free.  If I want a buyer protection plan I'll use my American
    Express card.  The same thing goes if I need a cash advance.  I don't
    need this "choice" from DCU.

    
    Just to keep everyone updated, I was contacted by DCU (Mary Madden)
    with a request to post a statement in the conference. 
    
    I am expecting it anytime, and as soon as I receive it I will post it.
    
    Nisreen (moderator)

    Re: .145:  When you do post it (if it is not a reply to this note)
    please tell us here (as a reply to this note) where the statement can
    be found.
    
    Thanks.

    I have seen a couple of replies in here on MERCHANTS NATIONAL BANK
    which have offices in (Fitchburg, Leominster and Townsend)
    
    Here are some more details.
    
    o Free Checking with direct deposit
    
    o Balances from 1000 to 4999 earn 4% anything over $5000 earns 5%
      on checking accounts.
    
    o No Charge for use of ATM cards regardless of where you use them.
      (This is great for me seeing XPRESS-24 is just about everywhere)
    
    o All cancelled checks are mailed back to you with your monthly
      Statements.
    
    
    Needless to say I switched to Merchants several months ago and am
    glad I did.
    
    

    I did some shopping around and found a good example of an institution
    that appears to work for it's members.
    
    Sandia Area Federal Credit Union - Albuquerque, New Mexico
    
    No minimum balance in sharedraft acct.
    No monthly fee (you purchase checks, just like DCU)
    Interest on sharedrafts: 4.5% over $300, figured DAILY!  
    Hours: 9-4:30, 9-5 driveup,  Saturdays 9-1
    ATM card that works over Plus, Link, and a few others
    
    bye bye DCU.....

I actually took the time to read the disclosure statement.  No where in that
statement does it state that checking requires a daily min of $1000.00 or 
does it state that checking requires a monthly min. of $1000.00, I asked the
teller in our branch where that information is available, she put me in touch
with the manager for that branch...who informed me that it was left out of the
information sent to members, but was sent to the branches.  

The way the disclosure statement reads is that if you have a $1000.00 min
balance then you won't be charged the fee.   

Something is suppose to come to the membership soon.
Loretta

    It appears to me that DCU is downsizing just like Digital. Since they
    have 8000 inactive accounts I really think they want members to leave.
    
    This isn't the same DCU I started with. I will probably leave my
    account open long enough to use all my checks then close it out.
    Wes

    Well, being from Rhode Island, where the word Credit Union makes one
    tremble in their shoes and check their pockets/purses for their
    wallets,  this big money rip-off scandel and increased fees in the DCU
    scares me.  Although, I didn't lose a thing from the RI scandels, I
    think everyone should think of theses scandels and beware.  DCU might
    be desparately trying not to go under, as incredible as it might seem.
    
    The main reason I joined DCU is because of convienience.  I'll wait and
    see what unfolds here, but probably I'll join a RI bank.
    
    dave

        re: .63
        
        Anyone who is planning on closing their DCU checking account, and
        now has expenses directly deposited there:
        
        PLEASE!!! Contact your local FMC (their DTN is in the Digital
        Telephone Directory under Traveletter) and tell them to stop
        sending your expense checks to DCU. I just spoke with the Midwest
        FMC in Colorado (they handle Chicago), and they are expecting a
        deluge of these requests. The FMC manager has spoken with the
        local DCU manager to no avail. They are elevating the issue within
        Digital to put pressure on the DCU. It can't hurt.

    When DCU first opened, I didn't join; I had a checking account with
    another bank that was giving very good service.  After a couple of
    years, DCU's rates and convenience were obviously better, so I joined.
    Would  I join DCU now?  I doubt it.  Will I leave DCU?  Quite possibly.
    I've got two CD's, a RSVP account, and a savings account, all with
    "significant" cash in them; why the hell do I need $1000 in my
    *checking* account???
    
    And can anybody tell me why low-activity accounts are so burdensomely
    expensive?  They're just another record in a computer file.  The
    only expense is monthly mailings and a little computer time.
    Twelve 29-cent stamps is $3.48/year.
    

    
    RE: .154
    
    Your CD's must be >= $2500 for "DCU PLUS Checking".  If they fall below
    $2500, there is a $5 charge.  Hmmmm, the "additional features" (gotta
    love this brochure!) column also states "dividends on balances > $1000.
    
    So if you have $2500 in CDs and a balance of $999 you get no interest
    on your checking balance?  What a feature.  This should be listed as a
    requirement for interest instead of a feature.
    

re : 154, 155

    From the way that I read the brochure, you would have to keep $2500 in your
CD in order to avoid service fees on checking. This means that at some point
in the future, if you needed the money which was in CD's, you would be forced to
pay the service fee. Even having > $1000 in checking would not be an option to
avoid the fee. This limitation put me totally against the PLUS checking.

    As it had happened, I had closed my CD's about a month ago upon maturity.
The timing was right as I opened up CD's in another bank last week. The amount
was many times higher than the $1000 I would have needed in checking to avoid
the service fee but I did not consider this a reasonable option.

    
    RE: .156
    
    Yes, but I was hoping the PLUS in DCU PLUS checking meant something
    besides PLUS additional frivilous benefits.  OK, overdraft protection
    may be useful but if you don't bounce checks, then it's not needed. 
    Purchase protection, a PLUS?  Next joke.
    
    So, bottom line is even the "free" DCU plus account requires a high
    minimum balance of $1000 to get interest.  I would think that having
    $2500 in CDs DCU could lower that $1000 a bit.  From all my
    investigations into choices 3,4,5,etc., $1000 is VERY high.  Small
    credit unions are much lower.  Large banks are much lower.  How on
    earth does DCU arrive at the conclusion this is competitive?  Maybe we
    should be asking DCU to post the names of institions which it used to
    determine it's 'choices' were competitive?  I've given up trying to
    find these (un)competitive places.
    
    I have cut out a great add in one section of the Worcester Telegram.  A
    very timely add IMO.  The top reads "If this is your bank's idea of
    "free" checking, perhaps you should check with us."  Under these words
    are cutouts of adds for 3 institutions that say: "Free Checking!
    (minimum balance $2500)  Monster Bank of Massachusetts", "Free
    Checking!  Minimum balance $800  Rich Bank of Central Mass.", Free
    Checking!  (Minimum Balance $1000)  Big, Big City Bank"
    
    Then at the bottom it says: "We're the Leominster Credit Union, and if
    you're sick and tired of high fees and exaggerated claims, you owe it
    to yourself to check us out."
    
    I almost busted a gut laughing.
    

       Thing is, I did check them (LCU) out last week. They too have
    minimums. They might not be as high but they're there.
                                    Denny

    The way I read the brochure, if I don't choose "CHECKING PLUS!!!"
    and instead opt for a plain old vanilla-flavored checking account,
    the fact that I have two CDs doesn't matter.
    
    And what happens when the CDs reach maturity?  If I sign up for
    "CHECKING PLUS!!!" it means I *have* to buy another DCU CD, and
    that sure doesn't sound as though DCU is extending my "list of
    available options."  It's restricting my list of options...to DCU.
    
    Anybody else remember pre-DCU and Worker's Credit Union in Fitchburg?  
    I found their service excellent...maybe time to reestablish contact....
    

    
    RE: .159
    
    Yes, LCU has minimums too.  Almost all do.  But they are $100 & $400
    depending on the account.  LCU is a fairly small CU in comparison to
    DCU so how can they keep their minimums so low in these hard times?
    
    I also checked out Peoples Savings Bank which is a fairly large bank in
    Central Mass.  Their minimums were no where near DCU.  They also
    offered about 6 different variations ('choices' in DCU lingo) of
    checking.
    
    Has anybody found any place that is WORSE than DCU???
    

I have an account with BayBank. Their minimum balance is $1,500. But
they offer more ATM's.

Unfortunately, most of the banks near Maynard and east of Maynard
have high minimum balance requirements.

Gim

    
    No question that Big Banks have high minimums.  But then you do get
    more Big Services.  For DCU, I don't want or expect Big Services, and
    as a trade-off I expect no minimums.
    
    For instance, at BayBanks I need $2000 in savings to get absolutely no
    fee whatsoever (there are many other checking plans).  Why do I
    consdider that still better than DCU?
    
      - The $2000 can be in savings (making better interest)
      - Convenience - there are always more BayBanks near me than DCU's.
      - Free ATM - DCU ATM is not free in my opinion, because when you
        need money, you are generally only near a Cirrus, not a DCU machine, 
        hence $1 charge.  Baybanks ATM's are EVERYWHERE.  I live by the ATM.
      - My ATM can be used anywhere a MasterCard can as a withdrawl from
        my checking account for NO fee (Express Check).
    
      The above two basically give me the ability to get money anywhere
      and write checks anytime without having to carry a checking book
      around.
    
      DCU keeps comparing itself to other banks, but the only thing they
      have in common are the FEES not the SERVICES.  Fine if you want
      require minimums, but you better give me high services.  If you have l
      low services give me no minimums.  DCU was the few places to do the
      latter.
    
    - Sean

    re: .160

>   Anybody else remember pre-DCU and Worker's Credit Union in Fitchburg?  
>   I found their service excellent...maybe time to reestablish contact....

    I joined WCU when I joined Digital.  I seem to remember their service
    being fairly good.  I started out in Mass, transferred to NJ and then
    to NH and had no problems with them that I recall. Dealing with them
    through the mail was effortless. I changed over to DCU when it was
    started (I still have my "Charter Member" certificate filed away - too
    bad THAT'S not worth $2500 :-) ) because of convenience and at the
    time, DCU paid better interest and had better rates.

    For the most part I was well pleased with WCU.  If I still lived in
    Mass (heaven forbid! :-) ), I'd probably look into them again.  I'm
    sure giving serious consideration to moving all my funds out of DCU
    with this latest fiasco.

    -Bob

    The other thing that every bank I looked at (including the megalith
    baybank where I've had an account for years specifically because of
    the free ATMs all over MA) had was that they did not require direct
    deposit to waive fees.  At least the way I read the stuff from the DCU,
    just having >1000 in the checking account would only waive part of the
    fees.  To waive all the fees, you'd have to have at least $100 of your
    paycheck direct deposited to the checking account at DCU.

As everyone knows, there's a huge loss due to actions of the past
DCU president. Some amount of the money will be recovered by ligitation
and bonds. There will be a portion nonetheless that will NOT be covered.

Since the DCU deals with money, the only way to make up for the 
non-performing loans is to either increase revenue, i.e. the new
fees and higher loan interest or reduce expenses (lower interest rates paid
on deposits, fewer tellers, etc.)

I don't believe that increasing the number of shareholders is a viable
option at this time.

Seems to me that the DCU has taken this course of action by necessity.
I, however, in no way support the manner that it was done. The ad
"more options..." is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

Gim

    Anyone know why the direct deposits have not been done yet today?
    I understand this is usually accomplished Tuesday night. I was
    just told by DCU in MKO that O/T is a problem and "some" other
    direct deposits also.
    
    The system came up after the hurricane and now apparently is down
    again.
    
    I'm probably just getting paranoid, what with things like they are
    these days, but would really like some reassurance I'll be paid
    this week.
    
    Think I'll go back to a hard check - I think the feel of it in my
    hand would be nice.
    
    Janet
    

       Mine's in there.
                                 Denny

    WOW! TOO MANY TO READ!  BUT IF NO ONE ALREADY MENTIONED IT:
    
    CENTRAL SAVINGS BANK IN WESTFORD ON 110 OFFERS FREE CHECKING WITH
    DIRECT DEPOSIT INTO THE ACCOUNT.
    
    THE HAVE ABOUT 5 OTHER BRANCHES ALONG 495 AND NORTH
    
    DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER OFF HAND BUT IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED I'LL LOOK IT
    UP.
    
    JOE

    	People have been asking about what it costs to maintain small,
    	inactive accounts.  They mentioned monthly mailings.  You
    	only get a monthly mailing if there is a checking account
    	attached to the account.
    
    	My family has 7 accounts under my badge.  (My own, and 6
    	family sub-accounts.)  My primary account and 2 of the family
    	accounts have checking accounts.  We get monthly statements for
    	them regardless of the past month's activity (or lack thereof.)
    	The other 4 accounts (relatively inactive) do not have checking 
    	accounts, and we only get quarterly statements for them.
    
    	So the cost to maintain inactive samll accounts may even be
    	less than estimated.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

re: .170
  <<    So the cost to maintain inactive samll accounts may even be
  <<	less than estimated.
   
Yes, I guess thats why it's only the checking accounts - which are legally
required to send monthly statements - that are getting the service charge,
not the savings only for which DCU is only obligated to send quarterlies.

I've suggested to DCU that they follow the lead of some other financial groups
and let people request that all family accounts be consolidated onto a single
statement. I was told that that's the only possible way they could even attempt
to control mailing costs on the statements this way - since otherwise they have
to send each account separately. (Seems in some families people don't want their
spouse to see each other's statements.)

	/Marvin

    
    And to add insult to injury....
    
    Back page of latest DTW:
    
    "Digital Credit Union expands checking account services
    
    Effective September 1, 1991 Digital Credit Union (DCU) will introduce
    'Lifestyle Checking', an expanded program offering two accounts with
    unlimited check writing privileges, overdraft protection, ATM
    availability, and touch tone phone access.  Plus, members have the
    opportunity to earn interest every day their account balance is $1,000
    or more."
    				.
    				.
    				.
    
    blah, blah...  blah, blah...  blah, blah...
    
    Is this a DCU submission?  WILL THEY NEVER LEARN?
    

    
    	Re: .173
                               
    	Something to ponder before flaming about the DTW: This fee issue has
    only been brewing for a few weeks now, and publications do have deadlines
    that are typically far in advance of when it goes to print.  (I know, I
    know, the "T" in "DTW" is supposed to mean "This" week, but most of the
    items reported on are typically several weeks old.)  It is quite possible
    that the deadline for getting this article into DTW was before this
    notesfile started exploding in anger.  While the BoD _might_ be trying
    to ignore the complaints in this notesfile, I wouldn't take the DTW
    article as proof of it.
    
    							-craig

    re:-1 (DTW lead time)
       That may be true, but how do you explain the 'MORE OPTIONS', " MORE
    CHOICES' posters still being up in the branches? 
                                     Denny

    
    RE: .174
    
    I'm fully aware of the lead times involved in publishing DTW.  My
    primary objection to the article was AGAIN the insulting 'choices' BS
    as well as the use of the term 'expanded'.  The only thing that has
    'expanded' have been the charges and fees.  Yet not one single word of
    the new fees in the article.  Pure, unadulterated propaganda.  But what
    has become typical of DCU communication; tell half the story.

    
    	Re: .175
    
    	Excuse me, but I didn't say that _every_ piece of communication
    that we're seeing is reasonable to expect and thus I was not, and am
    not, defending every aspect of this PR catastrophy.  I was pushing back
    on the DTW complaint, however, since even if the BoD changed their minds
    *immediately* after the very first outcry in this notesfile, that DTW
    article would probably still hit the streets due to publishing deadlines.
    Therefore, its existance is indicative of nothing other than what the
    BoD's PR compaign was _back then_ and says nothing about their views
    today.  (And yes, the PR campain back then was, and still is, to hide
    the fees.  Is it really news to anyone, then, that the DTW article
    didn't say "hey you folks are going to pay through the nose now!"?)
    
    	The posters are, of course, a totally different issue since they
    could be removed within an hour of the BoD calling whomever and saying
    "we blew it, take 'em down."  Therefore, they are indicative of what
    the Board feels _today_ -- which is the important thing if we're all
    trying to read between the lines for some hint of a fee pullback.
    
    							-craig       

    
    RE:  .177
    
    >the Board feels _today_ -- which is the important thing if we're all
    >trying to read between the lines for some hint of a fee pullback.
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    While I was optimistic that this would occur also, after the first BoD
    meeting I was convinced this is not a possibility.
    
    If fact, a comment was made (not sure by who) that the BoD wasn't sure
    that the people in this conference necessarily represented the views of the
    DCU membership.  A reference was made to "people whining" in here.  So
    while the BoD reads this conference, they discount what is said in here
    to a certain degree.  They will have to tell you how much.  Maybe the
    BoD should publish their phone numbers in the next brochure so that all
    members can call them personally and then they can see first hand if we 
    are "representative"?
    

    
    	Re: .178
    
    	Well, frankly, *I* don't know just how representative this
    notesfile is of the overall DCU membership either since there is no
    factual basis (ie. survey of all the members' views compared to the
    views of the DCU Notesfile participants) for making such a claim.
    We can think we're representative (and who knows, we just might be!),
    but we really can't chide the board for not believing something that we
    can't prove ourselves.  I'm not trying to sound like I'm defending the
    board, but lets put their statements into perspective before we lambast
    them every time they exhale!
    
    	As to a fee pullback, I don't expect it either.
    
    							-craig
    
    p.s.  What is the status of the petition to hold a special meeting?

    
    RE: .178
    
    The fact that we have access to a means of expressing our opinions
    (this conference) and many of the thousands of DCU membership cannot
    or do not participate in this forum does not invalidate many of the
    issues brought up in here.  
    
    DCU always cites their research and market studies as a basis for their
    decisions.  Well, I would also like to quote from one of their surveys. 
    Boy am I glad I don't throw anything out! ;-)
    
    This is from the InputOutput flyer dated October, 1989.  The first
    segment entitled "The results are in...".  Second paragraph, first
    sentence: 
    
    "According to the analysis submitted by Wallace and Washburn, Inc.,
    most of our members joined and continue to do business with the Credit
    Union because of automatic payroll deduction, convenient locations, and
    FREE checking."
    
    (the capitalization of FREE is theirs, not mine)
    
    Now my question is "Doesn't DCU or it's BoD read their own market
    surveys?"  If FREE checking is listed in the top 3 reasons people join
    and do business with DCU, wouldn't the elimination of that program
    severely impact DCU?  Especially when almost all of it's competitors
    are offering free checking of one sort or another?
    
    Now, one of the following must be true.  Anybody have any other
    explanations?
    
    	1. They didn't know all of the above and decided to institute fees
    	   to generate income.  In which case they didn't do their homework
    	   and just decided to institute the fees because they needed the
    	   income.
    
    	2. They knew all of the above but decided to take a chance with new
    	   fees because they believed members perceived benefit from other
    	   DCU services and wouldn't leave.  And they need the income.
    
    	3. They knew of the importance of FREE checking to DCU members but
    	   needed the sizable income that the new fees would generate.  In
    	   which case, they are not in the good condition they profess (IMO).
    
    	4. DCU members are hooked on the convenience and are too lazy to
    	   go elsewhere.  (unless their pocket is being picked of course)
    
    

    
    >    p.s.  What is the status of the petition to hold a special meeting?
    
    
    	Planning and organization is underway.  First meeting to be held
    before the end of this week.  Look for visible signs of action at 
    locations near you next week.  Volunteers still welcome.  The more
    participation the better.  Stay tuned...
    

    DCU still offers free checking.  There are just more strings attached.

    How many notesfiles, editorial pages, etc. are there out there where
    people contribute just to say "well done"?

    
.182>  DCU still offers free checking.  There are just more strings attached.
    
    Right.  They also offer free loans.  But with strings attached.
    
.183>	How many notesfiles, editorial pages, etc. are there out there where
.183>   people contribute just to say "well done"?
                                       ^^^^^^^^^
    	Hmmm, the COOKING notesfile maybe? ;-)
    

    
    	Re: .180
    
    	You missed the point of what I'm saying.  I _didn't_ say that the
    points being raised here are invalid since not everyone in DCU
    participates.  I _did_ say that we shouldn't expect for the BoD
    to automatically treat this notesfile as a cross-the-board survey of
    the membership.  A subtle, but important, difference since notesfiles
    tend to attract the people who are the most opinionated about a topic.
    For example, if 99% of the people participating in the FELINE
    conference think that cats are great pets, it doesn't mean that 99% of
    the whole world thinks that cats are great pets.  (And no, I don't
    participate in that conference so don't hold me to those numbers! :-)
    Our views are important and I certainly hope the BoD is listening
    (and, preferably, acting upon what they read here), but we have to be
    careful about considering this notesfile as having _the_ representative
    view of the membership.
    
    			   				-craig

    
    RE: .185
    
    I didn't miss your point.  I know exactly what you're saying.  I'm
    merely stating what was said at the meeting.  I have never said and
    will not say we represent the DCU membership as a whole.  At the same
    time, I don't expect the BoD to dismiss or discount the people, comments,
    suggestions, complaints, etc. just because they happen to appear here
    instead in one of their surveys.
    
    I would love to see a DCU survey issued at this time to guage whether
    the BoD represents the DCU membership.  How about it BoD?  Can you
    spare a survey?  You can even put it in next month's statements.  That
    way everybody should get one and you'll get a real good idea of just
    what the membership thinks.  But please spare the Mom and apple pie
    questions.  Find out if members have recently shopped around for loans
    and gone with DCU or somebody else.  Find out if members think it's more
    important to offer paying bills by phone and purchase protection or
    free checking with a reasonable minimum.  Find out if members expect a
    credit union to be more than competitive when it comes to rates.
    

The "point" about selective sampling could (and should) be taken one step
further.

The community whose opinions are important to DCU's future are not just those
who participate in this conference, as previously observed.  However, neither
is the community whose opinions are important to DCU's future just those who
are current DCU members.

The community whose opinions are important to DCU's future are:
   o  all current DCU members, plus
   o  all DEC employees who have not seen fit to join DCU, plus
   o  all DEC employees who used to be DCU members and have seen fit to leave.

A really meaningful survey should not just be mailed with statements.  It
would have to include all DEC employees.

I believe that for every "whiner" in this conference, there are probably 10-100
others who are just too feed up to fight it, and are closing their accounts and
taking their business elsewhere.

If I was a businessman and someone came into my store to complain about
something, I'd wonder how many other shoppers just said "Oh, well, I'll just
spend my money somewhere else!"

A survey is a good idea, but unfortunately, a lot of "whiners" have already
shopped around and gone elsewhere.  The few that are actively fighting to get
our credit union turned around and back on track are now being labeled as
"whiners".....  how sad.

Jim

    
    RE: .187 & .188
    
    Excellent points on both!
    
    I'm sure the Communist Party aparatchiks in the U.S.S.R. considered
    the people in the streets whiners too.  All movements start out as a 
    single person "whining" in the street.
    
    Whiners are people who complain and offer no solutions or alternatives. 
    Activists speak out and offer real solutions to real problems.  Too bad
    our credit union and it's management and BoD haven't learned to tell
    the difference.  Guess their "surveys" have been telling them what they
    want to hear.
    

    
    Re: whiners
    
    A conversation with a teller here at the ZKO branch revealed that
    a number of people just came in and said "give me my money."
    
    Steve
    

    re .190
    
    You know, I got a sour look from the teller here this morning!
    She's always cheerful.  I wonder if they're running into the
    same bailout?

    The readers of this file are certainly not typical of the DCU
    membership at large; thanks to the diligent efforts of several
    noters, chiefly Phil Gransewicz, we are much better informed
    about the facts than most members.  Would the DCU membership
    at large tend to share the opinions expressed in this notesfile
    if they were aware of all the facts, instead of just the material
    presented in the glossy propaganda blurbs?  I expect so.  If the
    BoD chooses to continue its present policy, which seems to be to
    keep the members as ignorant as possible about what is going 
    on,...I am disturbed.
    
    My guess is:
    	1) the credit union is hurting;
    	2) the BoD thinks (rightly or wrongly) that if the members knew
    	   how bad things are, they'd bail out;
    	3) therfore, the BoD is doing its best to convince us everything
    	   is "just fine" while they attempt to bail out the sinking boat.
    
    This is not necessarily a bad thing to do, and I suppose one might
    argue that it's the way to best prevent a wholesale panic that COULD
    cause the collapse of the credit union.  At this point, I think DCU,
    while not particularly robust, is in not immediate danger of
    collapsing.  But I remain annoyed by the BoD's attitude in general.

       I think the reason the tellers may be getting glum is that a lot of
    the 'Direct deposit authorization Forms' have cleared payroll since the
    new rates hit the fan. I'm sure that once people see that their pay is
    now going to their new bank, they'll be closing their DCU accounts.
                                      Denny

RE: .188

> I believe that for every "whiner" in this conference, there are probably
> 10-100 others who are just too feed up to fight it, and are closing their
> accounts and taking their business elsewhere.

Count me in as one of the silent ones you refer to.  I hope that the board does
not make the mistake of only seeing scores of "whiners" in the notes file
or at these special meetings and think that they can blow them off.  For
everyone that speaks up about this nonsense, there will be plenty who won't
bother.  I personally feel that this is the proverbial straw that broke the
camel's back and have zero confidence in the DCU as a financial institution.
The convenience of the DCU is not worth being treated as an idiot who is
expected to be glad to be treated as one.

The DCU board and management have gone amuck with both their attitudes and
their practices.  Many in this file have done a fine job of pointing this out
and I am thankful for your efforts.  I regret that I can not find the time
nor energy (nor dollars!) to spend to correct the situation.  I will remain
a member with a minimal savings account to secure voting rights and would be
happy to return in the future if the DCU can mend its ways.

Ray Kopacko

    
    Re: .194
    
    > The convenience of the DCU is not worth being treated as an
    > idiot who is expected to be glad to be treated as one.
    
    You've said a mouthful.  If they think that the $2 a month and
    the convenience make it worth taking their crap they'd better
    wake up fast while they still have a DCU to wake up to.
    
    Steve
    

A point on the ratio of 'whiners' to the silent masses. 

A standard rule in politics is one letter is worth about a thousand votes.
If this extends to one 'whiner' being worth a thousand other dissatisfieds
the DCU is going to be in for some rough times.

:-Chuck

                            DCU STRIKES AGAIN!!
                            
     I (tried)  to close my RSVP and Sharedraft Accts at DCU on Monday of
     this week.   All  I  wanted  to do was to TRANSFER the $100 that was
     left in each of  these accounts to my Share 1 Acct!!  Simple, right?
     NO, not at DCU.  They transferred the Sharedraft balance to Share 1,
     but  "CAN'T  TRANSFER  THE RSVP", they "have to" Mail a check to  my
     home, as the RSVP $100 balance is "UNAVAILABLE".  I never heard such
     rubbish...  [Dianne L.  Ardogna (sp?) at the Mill was the teller and
     attached a note to my receipt.]
     
     I would have raised holy hell, but unfortunately I wasn't there (I'm
     out on STD for the next few weeks due to  a separated shoulder).  My
     Wife  (also  a  DECcie,  she  also has her own account, and  she  is
     co-signer on my accounts) took care of the transaction. 
     
     <set mode sarcastic>
     
     Well, it is  4  days  later  and no sign of a check...it'll probably
     take a few months, after all they'll probably have to get $100 worth
     of gold transferred from Fort Knox and sell it on the open market to
     pay me off!
     
     <set mode back to mild flame>
     
     Whenever they get  around to sending me the check, I'll just deposit
     it at a real  financial  institution,  NOT  DCU.   I find it hard to
     believe that they are that  stupid that they would rather "lose" the
     funds than transfer them to another  DCU  sub-account.  [Yes, I know
     that I can't re-open the RSVP for at least a year...have no fear, by
     then DCU will probably be charging us interest  to  hold  our money!
     :-(]
     
     I sent a pointed, but polite letter to every member of the  DCU BOD,
     never got a response, but hardly expect one.  I am a Charter  Member
     of  DCU,  with  my  name up on the plaque, have had CD's and a  loan
     (~1982, but the handling of that was a joke...it took a full week to
     get approval on a SHARE SECURED LOAN, where the entire amount of the
     loan principal was  being  held  by  DCU in the DCU...I did the same
     thing at another CU and it took 4 hours to "approve" and receive the
     check), I used to keep  >$20K  in  DCU  when  they  paid competitive
     interest rates, etc., my ATM cards  expired  in  May  91 and I never
     received replacements (nor do I want them  at  this point), and gave
     them back my gold VISA last year, etc.
     
     DCU...A great "institution" to do business with (provided  that  you
     are ready for an institution!!).
     

     Len,
     
     	 I transferred my money out of RSVP into one of the other 
     sharedrafts a few months ago because I needed the money. The last 
     $100 were moved into the share 1 account immediately.  The only 
     problem I had was I cannot open up another RSVP account for 1 year.
     Why?  I don't know.  I suppose its just another benign rule set up 
     by the credit union to protect their cash reserves.
     
     I went to the Taylor Street branch.  I like the people down there 
     and will miss them when I close my account out tomorrow.  I'm 
     moving to Baybank where the checking account is free of all 
     services charges if you have direct deposit and work at DEC.
     
     
     
     Bryan

>     I (tried)  to close my RSVP and Sharedraft Accts at DCU on Monday of
>     this week.   All  I  wanted  to do was to TRANSFER the $100 that was
>     left in each of  these accounts to my Share 1 Acct!!  Simple, right?
>     NO, not at DCU.  They transferred the Sharedraft balance to Share 1,
>     but  "CAN'T  TRANSFER  THE RSVP", they "have to" Mail a check to  my
>     home, as the RSVP $100 balance is "UNAVAILABLE".  

	That's  incredibly  strange!  I've never had trouble moving money
	around different accounts, nor have I had trouble taking  *large*
	sums  (well, large for me...5 figures) of money out of savings or
	RSVP.  Of course, I've never tried to *close* my RSVP account, at
	least not yet :-).

	Part  of me wants to believe that this is some sort of Engineered
	Annoyance, but I find that hard to believe.  Why the  heck  would
	they do that?

>     I would have raised holy hell, but unfortunately I wasn't there (I'm

	Well, when you get back there, you should *still* raise holy hell.
     
>     (~1982, but the handling of that was a joke...it took a full week to
>     get approval on a SHARE SECURED LOAN, where the entire amount of the
>     loan principal was  being  held  by  DCU in the DCU...I did the same
>     thing at another CU and it took 4 hours to "approve" and receive the
>     check), I used to keep  >$20K  in  DCU  when  they  paid competitive
 
	Secured  loans  at  DCU  are still a real hassle.  You have to go
	through the full loan qualification  process,  and  then  pay  (I
	believe)  something  on  the  order  of  10% for your money.  The
	process takes at least a week to  process,  and  is  an  enormous
	hassle.   All  this,  so  you can borrow against your *OWN MONEY*
	(!).

	I  wanted  to do a secured loan deal in April when I bought a new
	car.  After seeing what DCU was up to,  I  went  down  to  Hudson
	(Mass)  Savings Bank, deposited $15K, took out a secured loan for
	$13K (at 2% interest above the interest on the  CD  securing  the
	loan),  and  was in and out of the bank with a cashier's check in
	less than 30 minutes.  That what I call real  service.   And  the
	terms  of  the  loan  are  such that if you work the numbers, I'm
	making money on the whole deal.

	Well, that's $15K less for DCU to conservatively invest :-).

/Chris

    I hope the info. about BAYBANK being free if a DECee uses Direct
    deposit since I t will be closing out my many RSVP (few kids) accounts
    and transferring them to a FREE checking environment.  I can not
    see keeping 1k in a checking acct. even though my balance has often
    been at that level. And taking $ out of an RSVP to buy a CD is
    stupid ... it should make no difference  the DCU were my 1,5k
    plus is stored as long as its in DCU.
    
    Next week my transfer will begin.....just got to get to a BayBank !
    
    Also an original DCU member who has all sorts of accounts ! Lloyd

    
    RE: rsvp
    
    Hmmmm, I closed mine out completely and was handed a check for the
    entire amount on the spot.  Why would any money be required to be left?
    
    And what's this about not being able to open another RSVP for a year. 
    When I closed mine that was never stated.  Does it appear in PUBLISHED
    DCU literature?  This BS (worse than  red tape) must go.  It appears to 
    be punitive and that should NOT be the policy of a CREDIT UNION under
    any circumstances.
    

    Maybe it was becasue you had your wife close your RSVP account instead
    of you doing it in person?

     Sean,
     
     	 The Baybank account that is free of monthly fees is the Fee 
     Saver account.  I called Baybank in Everett the other day and they 
     told me DEC employees can get this account if they have direct 
     deposit.
     
     
     
     Bryan

The stuff about not re-opening an RSVP account for a year is in the
literature, or at least it was a couple of years ago when I opened mine.
Plus I got a warning from the teller when I was going to close it.
I should have closed it anyway.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I just converted my BayBank account to a no-fee account as a Digital
    Direct Deposit customer.  This has been costing me $8/month, but I
    thought it was worth it for unlimited BayBank ATM usage, and Debit
    Card access to my checking account at MAsterCard merchants.  But they
    never told me about the special deal as a Digital emplyee, even
    though I have been using direct deposit there for years.
    
    So, for me at least, something good came out of this discussion.
    
    -Brian

    
    RE: Baybank
    
    There is a baybank BASIC checking where you only pay 1.50 a month with
    automatic deposit and you're limited to 8 checks a month and I think 3
    ATM withdrawls. But you can withdraw $$ at the teller at no fee.
    
    Additional checks over the 8 checks and 3 (maybe 4) ATM withdrawls, you
    pay $.75.
    
    It's is true that Westfield and Springfield facilities are offered free
    checking account with Baybank.
    

    re. .206
 - the operator did tell me that the 
    Westfield and Springfield DEC faciltities were exempt and could get
    free checking for just having direct deposit.  That struck me as very
    strange.  Why those 2 plants? 
    
        Those plants have been "grandfathered" under an agreement
        with BayBank that dates back some time ago.

     RE: .197
     
     Well I  spoke with Mary Madden this AM and she didn't understand why
     the teller couldn't  process  the  transaction (cancel RSVP and xfer
     the balance directly to  Share  1) while my Wife was at the teller's
     window.  BTW:  The transaction should  have  been done on 8/26 (when
     my Wife tried to close out the RSVP  and  the teller told her that a
     "check must be mailed to me at home" to  close  it out), however DCU
     actually  transferred  the balance to Share 1 on 8/30 (they  took  5
     days to do this)!! 
     
     Mary told me that she would talk to the Mill Branch  and correct the
     "misinformation".    I told her that I was used to misinformation at
     DCU, it's  been a continuing saga since its inception (refer to .197
     for some examples),  and  that  was  one  of the reasons that I have
     moved almost all my  $$  out  of  DCU.   If the DCU were "honest and
     upfront" with us, and stopped  making  the rules up "as they go", we
     would be tolerant of the problems that DCU has and the steps it must
     take to recover from them.
     
     The discussion was cordial, but it only  points  to  the  need for a
     "Mary Madden clone" in each branch to prevent  the people there from
     making up the rules "on the fly."

    re: Baybank. I'm ready to close my account out with those bozos. I've
    been a customer for over ten years and right now I'm in the middle of
    selling my house and buying another one. I took a treasurer's check
    from Boston Federal Savings Bank (main office is in Burlington, MA) and
    was going to be depositing it in my Baybank account. I was going to
    need it within a couple of days for a down payment when I signed the 
    Purchase and Sale on my new house. I was told I wouldn't have access to
    the funds for FIVE days while it cleared. I explained that it was a
    treasurer's check from a bank in the same county and I was told it
    didn't matter - it had to clear like any other check. I took the check
    to the DCU and was told the funds were available immediately.
    
    A few weeks later, I called Baybank about having funds wired into our
    account, the proceeds from the impending sale of our house, and when
    would the funds be available to me. We were trying to pass papers on
    both houses the same day. I was told it would be at least 24 hours
    AFTER THE WIRE TRANSFER WAS POSTED TO MY ACCOUNT. I was also given this
    whole song and dance about how I would have to notify the branch
    manager ahead of time because banks are very conservative and don't
    like surprises, etc. You'd think they'd never handled a wire transfer
    before. I checked with DCU and they told me how to have the money
    routed to my account and that as soon as it was posted, it was
    available to me.
    
    I also have to pay $8.50 a month in service fees so my DEC direct-deposit
    account won't cost me for every single transaction I make.
    
    

   I recently closed my wifes RSVP account and was also told that they had
to mail the $100 remaining balance directly to our house. The teller told
me that if I needed the money immediately than she could probably get it
OK'ed by making a telephone call. It did not really matter to me so I figured
I would just wait for the check. This was at the MRO4 


		/Ken

	The following is a part of what I recently mailed to a fellow
    	conference participant.  I liked the way some of it sounded
    	so I thought I'd just paste it in here too:
    
    	In the past I have been one for reason
	and understanding with DCU complaints.  Mortgage hassles -- it
	happens at every bank.  Odd hours.  It happens at many credit unions.
	Lack of branches/ATMs -- most other credit unions I have dealt
	with have had ONE branch, period.  No frills.  But they all have
	the better rates for savings and loans.

	Sometimes I wonder if ATT or IBM have credit unions, and if so,
	how they operate.

	I have been able to overlook all the other inconveniences and erosion
	of benefits from DCU.  But the "choices" we have today regarding
	checking accounts are not acceptable to me -- even if it *IS* only
	$2/month more than I was paying before.  Mary Madden keeps saying to
	compare DCU rates against other banks.  The proper logic should
	be to compare DCU rates against other CREDIT UNIONS.  I'd like to
	bet that most credit unions do not charge for checking.

	There will be change in the month of September.  I guarantee it.
	The change will be where I do my banking.

	Joe Oppelt

    I just closed my RSVP, and am in the process of closing the other
    accounts.  The teller had to call to 'headquarters' to get this done. 
    She could not give me a receipt at the time, but did tell me what the
    ending balance would be (even I could have figured that out...).
    
    No hassles closing an account, so I guess Mary is correct.  Shop around
    and find a better deal.  I know I am.
    
    	- mark

    re: .211

>    re: Baybank. I'm ready to close my account out with those bozos. I've
>    been a customer for over ten years and right now I'm in the middle of
>    selling my house and buying another one. I took a treasurer's check
>    from Boston Federal Savings Bank (main office is in Burlington, MA) and
>    was going to be depositing it in my Baybank account. I was going to
>    need it within a couple of days for a down payment when I signed the 
>    Purchase and Sale on my new house. I was told I wouldn't have access to
>    the funds for FIVE days while it cleared. I explained that it was a
>    treasurer's check from a bank in the same county and I was told it
>    didn't matter - it had to clear like any other check. I took the check
>    to the DCU and was told the funds were available immediately.
 

     When we purchased our home, I used my DCU account to consolidate funds
     for the closing.  A few days before the closing, I deposited a CERTIFIED
     bank draft/treasure's check into said account.  The day before the closing,
     I went to the DCU to get a bank draft only to find out that they had
     placed a hold on the CERTIFIED deposit I had made a few days earlier.
     Even though the draft/check had been cleared (originating bank had received
     confirmation of the tranfer) by that time, DCU's hold wasn't scheduled
     to expire for 2 more days.  I ended up having to go down to DCU
     headquarters to free up the funds..

     With CERTIFIED funds, there should never be a hold!

     Moreso, once a draft/check has cleared the originating bank, any holds
     should expire immediately!

re DCU's loan rates as compared to other credit unions:

I've been shopping for mortgages.  According to The Boston Globe's guide
to interest rates (published every Saturday), DCU's mortgage rates have
been consistently lower than other New England area credit unions for at
least the last several weeks.  They're still a little higher than mortgage
companies, so I'm going with a mortgage company.

    Check out the ones in NH.  The last I checked, they were not lower, but
    higher, in more than one way (pts etc.).
    
    	- mark

    	Normally, I'm "read-only", but have follwed this conference for a
    very long time.  I'm also a charter member of DCU, have a variety of
    checking accounts, regular accounts (would you believe 6?!), RSVPs (4)
    and IRAs (2).  Once had a car loan, now paid off.  Also do VISA.  Lots
    of money flows through, and a lot just sits there.
    
    	I am more than a little disturbed over the change to checking.  I'm
    looking, but slowly.  I figure that a whole LOT of people are in the
    same mode.  It takes time, and it's a hassle to change.  And most
    places may have free checking, but you still pay for the checks, so I
    may stay long enough to use up the current supply.  And I surely
    will not pull out in the middle of a quarter, giving up substantial
    interest...
    
    	And I'm pretty sure that there is an army of people in the same
    boat.  The shoe may not fall today or tomorrow or next month, but fall
    it will... Two dollars a month is still two dollars a month.
    
    	Take note: just as many of us are "slow" to leave, we will be even
    slower to return.  And at that point the same conditions will be
    necessary - DCU will need to offer us a BETTER deal than other
    institutions, not just a comparable deal...  So rolling back the
    checking fees will probably NOT be sufficient to get us back.
    
    	If I were responsible for running the DCU, I would be very nervous
    about the next few months, especially around the end of the quarter or
    beginning of the new quarter.  I would expect dramatic withdrawals.
    
    Just my two cents.
    
    Cheers!
    Dave Eklund
    

Well said Dave. Although I did immediately close out one of my kids checking
account I have many more to go but will not do so in haste. I am looking and
looking for a place where the amount of cash I keep in the Institution is
sufficient to off-set any checking account maintenance costs. Any one of
the 3 RSVP accounts I have are many times greater that the lousy certificate
amount they want me to purchase etc. etc. etc.

Haste makes waste but once my actions have taken place they will never be
undoable with this DCU.

Still peeved !  Lloyd

    I was at DCU yesterday to make a deposit to RSVP.  Since I was not
    awake, I told the teller to deposit to checking.  The receipt now says
    "Basic Checking" instead of Sharedraft for the account name.
    
    I guess we aren't a credit union any more if we don't have sharedrafts.
    
    Elaine
    

re: last two

	I  don't  believe  DCU  is going to feel anything significant for
	awhile.  I suspect that the  first  wave  of  closings  are  from
	either smaller depositors (not intended to belittle anybody here,
	I consider myself to be a small depositor, although  I'm  hanging
	on  here  for  now) or people closing nonessential accounts. When
	people with larger sums of money start  making  their  decisions,
	they could see some serious pounding here.

	Think about it, if 100 "mere" $10,000 depositors  up  and  leave,
	they're down a cool million bucks.  That's gotta hurt.  And while
	us  small-timers  can  quickly  jump to the nearest free checking
	deal in the area, people with  6-figure  deposits  need  to  more
	carefully   consider   their   alternatives.   When  that  starts
	happening, maybe somebody over there will wake up.

	Unfortunately, the way things are now I doubt that anybody in DCU
	is going to listen until the "big  players"  start  moving  their
	money  elsewhere.

/c

    re -.1
    
    some of us "bigger" depositers have moved.  I just moved >10k out of
    the DCU (something akin to life savings).  I'd imagine I'm not the only
    one.  The fees were just the last straw.

>================================================================================
>Note 253.213      STANDARD "FREE" CHECKING GOES AWAY SEPT 1!!!        213 of 213
>CSC32::J_OPPELT "Royal Pane and Glass Co."           26 lines   3-SEP-1991 19:12
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                The proper logic should
>        be to compare DCU rates against other CREDIT UNIONS.  I'd like to
>        bet that most credit unions do not charge for checking.
If you look at the comparison I posted of Colorado institutions, SSFCU charges
$2/month if your combined savings and checking balance goes below $100.

>        Joe Oppelt
BobW

    
    	Re: .221
    
    	Add one more to the list of >$10K people who have moved out of DCU.
    (Well, come Oct 1 we'll move the IRAs and actually close most of the
    accounts -- but they are down to the minimums already.)
    
    	Oh, I do stand corrected.  I am going to keep a small bit of money
    in my savings account.  No, not for political impact, but rather for
    lunch money when my wallet is low since I happen to work in a facility
    that has a DCU branch in it.  That's right, DCU has gone from being our
    main repository of cash to being a backup lunch money provider.  Congrats,
    DCU, on your new role.  May you do it better than you did your previous
    role.
    
    	Concerning coming back (re: a few back there), I agree.  Changing
    banks (especially checking accounts) is a royal pain that I do not
    relish doing.  Unless DCU changes to offering something signficantly
    better (_not_ just matching) what I now have at the local bank, I have
    no incentive to undergo the hassle of moving banks again.
    
    	But, I am going to occasionally follow this notesfile in a
    read-only mode.  The next few months look like it could be an
    interesting period in DCU's history.
    
    							-craig

    
    RE: .221
    
    I have pulled over 10K out already.  I just don't trust the current
    management with my money.  I don't know what 'choice' they will offer
    me next.  I don't know what 'investment' I'll have to reimburse them
    for next.
    
    I certainly don't consider myself a big fish but credit unions shouldn't
    be about big fish or little fish.  They should be about members.  The
    Bank of Digital doesn't have members, it has customers.  I don't think
    many DCU members out there realize this very important difference and
    what it SHOULD mean to them.  The credit union, it's management and BoD
    are accountable to its owners, that's you and I.  Banks are accountable
    to its owners, the stockholders.  Exercise your rights of ownership if
    you don't like what YOUR credit union has become.
    
    DCU will be as good as we make it or let it will become more of a 
    bank if we all let it happen.

    I am oving over $5k of loans out of DCU.  They were making money on
    this money.  This is actually worse, as they loose the interest.
    
    They actually may be happy to see a bunch of money leave, as they had
    too much and did not know what to do with it, last I heard...
    
    	- mark

    RE: .227
    
    >I am oving over $5k of loans out of DCU.  They were making money on
    >this money.  This is actually worse, as they loose the interest.
    >
    >They actually may be happy to see a bunch of money leave, as they had
    >too much and did not know what to do with it, last I heard...
    
    Yes, you're right on both points.
    
    Their excess deposits hurt the almighty ratios that DCU seems to care
    more about than its members.  More money on deposit should mean more
    income for DCU since what they pay us should be less than what they are
    making on it (HOPEFULLY!).  Maybe there is NOBODY that wants to borrow
    all our deposited money???  You know, I hear loan demand is down... ;-)
    Very bizarre.
    
    Hmmm, maybe we need people in charge that know how to MAKE a buck instead 
    of trying to TAKE a buck out of our pockets?  Now there's a thought...

    
    I've been wondering about this deposit/loan ratio for a while now...
    
    I'll swear a few days ago I heard a comment on a news broadcast that
    any recession recovery would be made sluggish by the fact that people
    are saving less, so there is less capital to jump-start the economy.
    All other things being equal, this should swing the deposit/loan ratio
    in favor of loans, as a general rule. But DCU is claiming just the
    opposite -- fewer loans, which swings the deposit/loan ratio in favor
    of deposits.
    
    Could it be that DCU members are much smarter than other banking
    customers? Could it be that DCU does not know how to make loans?
    

  The whole thing sounds Hokey!  If the DCU could bring in more money from the
current set of customers then they Gotta be able to make money.  It is clear
with the low interest rates there is NO reason they can't make money.  Things
like Tnotes and Tbills are liquid and easy to manipulate.  The difference in
rates between the rate they pay us and these is considerable.

re .-1:

Have you looked at T-bill and T-note rates lately?  They're in 5.5% to 5.75%
range.

  For short range ones that is true but that is STILL better than what they
pay us to give them the money!!!  If ya can't find a better place to put
it then this would be good.  They also could buy/sell 30year notes and make
money if they really have that much....

    Re .-1
    
    I sincerely hope they DON'T buy/sell 30 year notes. Not unless they
    have the proverbial crystal ball that says for CERTAIN that interest
    rates will only ever go down and not up. I don't want my credit union
    speculating on 30 year notes. I'd much prefer they buy a 30 year
    mortage to a member than a 30 year T bond. Here's one thing they are
    doing right.
    
    Dave

    
    RE: .233
    
    I wouldn't speak so soon.  Have we actually had an accurate statement
    from DCU on what they do and don't "invest" in?  Might be a good
    question for tomorrow night's session.

I got my August statement Friday and to my suprise, the dividends were posted
to my sharedraft accounts as of the end of the month.  I thought they weren't
supposed to be posted til the end of September ?

Also, there was another wonderful offer include.  Hows about using their "auto
service" to buy, etc cars.  How much comission does DCU get for this kind of
stuff ??

	It may very well be that DCU wants to get the owners of
	very small/inactive accounts to take their money elsewhere..

	I wonder how many of these accounts will be replaced by those
	who used to use DCU as their primary financial institution, but
	will now use it simply for "lunch money"?

					Tom_K

  Count me in on the Lunch money from now on.  I just got a new checking account
outside.

  Also... Re .-3  I would much rather they invest in Tbills then let the money
sit around!!!  Yes it would be nice to lend it to members but if you can't
find enough it is better to have a guaranteed return than 0%

    Thanks Russ, you got the ball rolling!!!
                                 Denny
    
    
                <<< SMAUG::USER$944:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;5 >>>
                                    -< DCU >-
================================================================================
Note 253.0        STANDARD "FREE" CHECKING GOES AWAY SEPT 1!!!       237 replies
NEWVAX::PAVLICEK "Zot, the Ethical Hacker"           35 lines   7-AUG-1991 09:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh rapture...  Oh joy...
    
    DCU is now offering us a "choice".  It seems that we were unfairly
    burdened by that old single-choice free checking account.  But now,
    DCU has "taken a positive approach to offering our members diversified,
    high quality, competitively priced products and services"!  They "have
    restructured and expanded our checking accounts so you can select the
    one that best matches your lifestyle"!
    
    Now, you have a CHOICE!  Now you can CHOOSE TO PAY FOR YOUR CHECKING
    ACCOUNT!!!
    
    Oh the wonder of it all!
    
    Think how deprived we once were, suffering along with free checking! 
    Now we can have the honor of paying for it!
    
    When, you ask?  When will you get this marvelous choice?
    
    Why, September 1, 1991!  You hardly have anytime to wait at all until
    this "choice" is all yours!!!
    
    Isn't that FANTASTIC!?!?!?
    
    -----------------
    
    I joined DCU solely because of the free checking.  Looks like I won't
    be keeping my money here much longer.
    
    The quotes are from a DCU flier in the DCO branch.  I'll try to type in
    the flier and the rates schedule when I get a chance.
    
    Depressed,
    
    -- Russ

    
    August 7th, 1991 - The date the shot heard 'round the DCU membership
    was fired.  Also, the beginning of the return of ownership to the
    members.
    

    re: .238
    
>    Thanks Russ, you got the ball rolling!!!
    
    I'd normally respond with "Anytime, dude!", but I sure as heck hope
    this is the last time we'll need to travel down this road!
    
    So, with that in mind, I'll just say:
    
    Never again, dude!  (Hopefully!  8^)
    
    -- Russ
    
    PS/ I think the new board is doing a great job!