Conference 7.286::dcu

Just a comment about charging enough to get the fee waived.  I just called DCU
on Friday to see about what I need to do to raise my credit limit on my card,
and was told that if I want a credit limit of $5000 or higher, I will have to
get the Gold Card which has a higher fee, but supposedly has more advantages
(none of which meant much to me, but that's another topic).  I said that the fee
didn't matter as long as it would still get waived by charging $2000 in one 
year.  That's when she said that they will be getting rid of that feature next 
year, and that we will be getting charged an annual fee to have the card.  She 
said it was because it was too hard for them to handle the administration of 
keeping track of how much money people were spending.  I figure it can't be 
any harder than keeping track of the expenses that get posted, credits, etc. 
except that it will generate more income for them.  I don't know when they 
are planning on implementing the annual fee, but I haven't seen anything 
official on it, and wonder when they plan to inform us.

Just an FYI.

    
    The day they institute an annual fee is the day they'll receive their
    card back in pieces.  I have no problem using the other cards I have
    which have no annual fee.  There are soooo many cards out there with no
    annual fee that to do this would result in a drastic drop in their
    business.  Time will tell...

    	There are several VISA and Mastercard companies that have no annual
    fees. Also Discover has no annual fee. These companies charge a higher
    interest rate but since I pay my charges in full every month, I don't
    care if they charge 100% interest.
    	There is a note somewhere in this notes file giving the address
    where you can get a list of all the free charge cards. I used to have
    it but misplaced it. I have two no fee charge cards and if DCU starts
    charging I will give DCU their card back and use my other free ones.

    				Arnie

    I already gave them mine back in pieces. I went with AT&T's
    no charge card which can also be used to place telephone
    calls etc.
    
    Lloyd
    
    ps. Before you can cancel your DCU account you must first
        initiate a form .... maybe you should get that form
        now ... for later !

    re: -.1
    
    Of course, you didn't mention that the AT&T no fee card carries an
    interest rate of 18.9% (at least here in MA), not the DCU rate of
    13.9%.  That could be a big factor for someone who charges a lot and
    doesn't pay in full every month.  You could very well save an annual
    fee, yet pay more overall due to higher interest rates.
    
    Does anyone know of a no fee card that meets or beats the DCU rates? 
    Now, that would bear consideration!

    re: 5, re: 1
    
    Ooops I did leave that out but since I always pay 100% of the
    balance each month the extra % rate wont bother me at all.
    
    
    As a matter of fact with DCU I transferred payments to VISA
    weekly and I will miss that convenience.
    
    Lloyd

    >interest rate of 18.9% (at least here in MA), not the DCU rate of
    >13.9%.  That could be a big factor for someone who charges a lot and
    >doesn't pay in full every month.  You could very well save an annual
    
    It is not 13.9% for much longer.  It is going into the 14.?% range very
    soon.  It is starting to become 'just like the others'.
    
    	- mark

RE: .5
>   Does anyone know of a no fee card that meets or beats the DCU rates? 

USAA Federal Savings Bank (Tulsa, OK) offers a very competitive no-fee card
with a variable rate of interest. It currently has a slightly higher rate
than the DCU card, but when DCU goes just a little higher, this might not be
true soon (USAA rate is somewhere in the 14.5-15.3% range right now - it has
been between 14.3 and 17% in the past 2.5 yrs).

They are a VERY selective group, so be advised. For info or an application,
call 1-800-531-BANK.

I found this and some other cards listed in the INVESTING conference. You
might wish to check it out.

John

    re .1  Thanks for letting us know.  Looks like they'll be getting my
    card in bits, too, since I have several no annual fee cards and pay
    promptly.

I've gotten lots of offers for no-fee cards through the mail.  Without
exception, they charge some large amount of money, e.g. up to $10, for 
failing to make a minimum payment on time.

Now, I always pay my card in full, but sometimes I fail to get the
payment in until after the deadline.  Just two such events in a year
and I'd be worse off with such a card than with a fee card.  So I
don't like that arrangement.  I don't mind a higher interest rate,
since even 6% higher would result in just a 1% payment on the balance
for missing two months, and my balances are usually not very high.

I just called USAA, and they say that there's no extra fee for missing 
a payment, just a finanace charge.  So I've asked them for an application.  
They wanted to know my SS number and whether anyone in my immediate
family had been an officer in the armed services.  No such luck -- my
dad wanted to be a pilot but ended up as a tail gunner.  I'm just
glad he survived.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

RE: -.1

> They wanted to know my SS number and whether anyone in my immediate
> family had been an officer in the armed services.  No such luck -- my

Larry,

That didn't preclude you from being able to get a card from them though,
did it? From my understanding, the USAA banking services have been opened
up to anybody... (and I have one)... just some of the other services, such
as auto insurance requires armed services affliation.

John - (who doesn't have that kind of "luck" either, thank goodness!)

    Re .11:
    
>   From my understanding, the USAA banking services have been opened up to
>   anybody... (and I have one)... just some of the other services, such as
>   auto insurance requires armed services affliation.
    
    USAA Federal Savings Bank (the card issuer) is open to anyone.  Its
    parent, USAA, is always on the lookout for eligible members (past or
    present officers from any branch of the U.S. military), so the question
    isn't so surprising.

>    USAA Federal Savings Bank (the card issuer) is open to anyone.  Its
>    parent, USAA, is always on the lookout for eligible members (past or
>    present officers from any branch of the U.S. military), so the question
>    isn't so surprising.

Is USAA open to other former giv'mint employees or just armed forces
employees?

BobW

    Re .13:

>   Is USAA open to other former giv'mint employees or just armed forces
>   employees?
    
    USAA membership is limited to current and former (commissioned and
    warrant) officers of the U.S. armed forces.  (Service academy and ROTC
    cadets are also eligible as "future" officers. 8^)  In the 1920s, when
    USAA was founded, military officers had great difficulty obtaining
    satisfactory insurance coverage.  A group of enterprising Army officers
    formed USAA to meet their own needs and later extended membership to
    the other branches of the service.  USAA-CIC was created more recently
    to offer similar insurance coverage to officers' family members.
    
    Other organizations, such as GEICO, cater to U.S. Government employees
    without limiting themselves to military officers.

    >USAA membership is limited to current and former (commissioned and
    >warrant) officers of the U.S. armed forces.  (Service academy and ROTC
    
    As a previous message said, ANY NH resident can get the insurance also. 
    You have to apply, but you can get it.
    
    They will not mention this to you, at least they did not to me, and I
    had to ask them, before they said they would send me an application.
    
    	-mark

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 30-Jul-1990, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************

Response to 220.1
    
    At this time, DCU has no plans to discontinue offering VISA cardholders
    the opportunity to waive their VISA annual fees ($12--Classic;
    $18--Gold) by charging at least $2000 in new purchases each calendar
    year.
    
    If you have any questions, please contact Mary Madden at DTN/223-6735,
    ext. 207.
*******************************************************************************

    The new format for the DCU VISA statement seems to have the columns
    
    TRANS and POST
    DATE      DATE
    
    reversed.  It was always my impression that TRANS DATE is the date the
    transaction took place, i.e., when you charged the item, and the POST
    DATE is the date that the charge is posted to your account.  Yet my
    recent statement showed all items with TRANS DATE later than POST DATE
    -- that would seem to make DCU clairvoyant.  Which is incorrect: the
    form itself or the program that prints the form?
    
    /Ed

RE: .17

It could be that the transaction date is the time/date it was entered
into the transaction file.  Like many credit card companies, the transaction
file is then applied to the account files for updating (posted).  Hence
the post date is later than the transaction date.

-Wayne

    Re: .18
    
    Reread .17 -- that is exactly what I'm saying.  The post date should
    (theoretically) always be the same or later than the transaction date,
    since the "transaction" (purchase using the card) occurs first.  But
    the entries in the respective columns on the new statement would have
    you believe otherwise.
    
    /Ed

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 15-Aug-1990, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************

    Response to Note File 220.17
    
    On DCU's July 10th VISA statements there were two printing errors:
    
    1.  The transaction date column and the post date column were reversed.
    
    2.  The 800 number published on the front of the statement should have 
    read 1-800-453-4270 instead of 1-800-453-4720.
    
    Corrections have been made and will appear on next month's statement.
******************************************************************************

    FYI:
    
    DCU screwed up on last months statement and shipped us a new one.  We
    could not see any change between the new and old one!  The note that came
    with the new statement said a small group of people had their
    statements made up incorrectly, so they were shipping out a new one.
    
    I have this feeling we will be seeing this 2-3 times a year.
    
    	- mark
    

	Looks like the DCU is again changing VISA charging by significantly 
	increasing minimum levels ($6000 for Gold card).  I forgot to bring 
	the fine print from this month's mailing in to work, but it is 
	so much more it makes me wonder where this new policy came from?  
	At minimum I will switch to regular and lower credit line, if not 
	changing all together!

	Who's DCU is this?  Low checking interest?   Where is the benefit of 
	membership?  Hello USAA..........

	Dave

    The interest rate is also going up -- to 15.5%
    
    This is particularly interesting since many banks (such as Chemical)
    are lowering their interest rates (to 16.2% for Chemical Gold cards).
    
    BobW
    

There's no way I'm going to average $500/month on a Visa card, so I've switched
to the AT&T card - no annual fee as long as you use the card once a year. For
those who pay off their balance every month, the higher (19.9% I believe)
interest rate is unimportant.

						Trace

    
    The minimum used to be $2000/year.  Now they are $3000 and $6000 (gold
    Visa).  And then an interest rate increase.  All this when interest
    rates are going DOWN.  What is the justification for this?  Maybe there
    is none.  Just that the DCU hooked us all in with a low interest rate
    and "free" cards.  Now they are just reeling us in.  Well all they are
    going to get at the end of this line is a Visa card cut in half.  My
    AT&T card will do just fine thank you.  There was talk in here a
    little while back that DCU was going to institute an annual fee.  They
    denied it.  Now this.
    
    IMO, this is just another case showing DCU stinks.  I've said it in the
    past and I'll repeat it again.  99% of the DCU membership is hooked on
    the convenience.  They are certainly no bargain for loans.  Has DCU
    forgotten they are a credit union?  Or are they just another "bank"?
    
    Signed,
    Just another fish (but not for long!)

>>   Does anyone know of a no fee card that meets or beats the DCU rates? 
>
>USAA Federal Savings Bank (Tulsa, OK) offers a very competitive no-fee card
>with a variable rate of interest. It currently has a slightly higher rate
>than the DCU card, but when DCU goes just a little higher, this might not be
>true soon (USAA rate is somewhere in the 14.5-15.3% range right now - it has
>been between 14.3 and 17% in the past 2.5 yrs).
>
>They are a VERY selective group, so be advised. For info or an application,
>call 1-800-531-BANK.
>
>I found this and some other cards listed in the INVESTING conference. You
>might wish to check it out.

	Just called and their rate quoted was 13.75%, no fee!  Bet this wasn't
	in the competative analysis.  Maybe I heard wrong, but I asked them 
	to send info....

	Dave

RE: .27

>	Just called and their rate quoted was 13.75%, no fee!  Bet this wasn't
>	in the competative analysis.  Maybe I heard wrong, but I asked them 
>	to send info....
>
>	Dave

No Dave, you heard correctly. Right on the bottom of my April USAA bill, it
says, "Please note: The annual percentage rate will decrease to 13.75% for
billing statements beginning 5-01-91. This decrease is the result of a lower
average rate for 26-week treasury bills". This is a reduction from the
current 14.02% rate.

It was very interesting, I got this statement and my DCU statement the same
day. Of course, the DCU statement said something about due to the increasing
cost of credit. I had to laugh when I saw the two.

I'll hold the DCU card though... until I get the yearly charge.

John

    I have a Discover Card and each year they PAY me to use the card.  The
    interest that they charge is higher than the numbers I have seen here,
    but I pay the balance in full each month so that doesn't concern me. 
    BTW, in the next couple of weeks I will be receiving a check (yes a
    real live check!)  for forty some dollars (my yearly cash back bonus). 
    I have also had to deal with their (Discover's) service reps and have
    found them very helpful.  If you ever need cash, you can get cash with
    your Discover card (2.5% trans. fee, max. $10.00), but no interest
    charges if you pay it in full when the bill comes.  I do have a no-fee
    VISA (since there are a few places that don't take Discover, yet), but
    use the Discover card as my normal credit card!
    

    
    One more thing, the Discover card statement shows my year-to-date
    purchases!  
    

        Ditto on the Discover comments. You can call 1-800-DISCOVER any
        time and get information on your account. They used to have an
        automatic system, where you enter your card number on a touch tone
        phone, and it would tell you the current ballance, payment due,
        last payment received, etc. but they seem to have "downgraded" to
        a human being last time I called.
        
        They even will increase your credit limit over the phone, normally
        in under 24 hours time! When I did this they uncovered some bogus
        negative information on my credit report, alerting me to the
        problem that would occur with the mortgage I applied for the day
        before. I charged LOTS of stuff last year, while building my new
        house, and got a check back gor about $170. Unfortunately this
        years check will be somewhat smaller.
        
        I too cary a no charge ever VISA card for those places that don't
        take Discover. I've NEVER encountered a place where one of those
        was not adequate, where some other card would have been acepted
        (Amex, etc. not counting gas cards and the like).
        
        Other than my free checking, DCU won't get any business from me
        until there is a branch in less-than-flying distance from here
        (Chicago).

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 21-MAY-1991, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information.

    Whether you agree or disagree with the response from the DCU, please
    either direct your comments to the DCU directly (dtn-223-6735) or
    post your comments as a REPLY to this entry in this conference.

    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
         Response to 220.24

         With the recent increase in VISA delinquencies and the
         accompanying rise in program costs, including card production
         expenses, DCU made adjustments to its VISA interest rate and
         annual fee structure.

         Though DCU VISA delinquencies are below industry averages,
         they have tripled over the past year.  Furthermore, the
         interest rate (15.5%) does not truly reflect the rate of
         return for all our VISA loans, since over 28% of our
         cardholders pay their balances in full each month.

         DCU continues to offer members a very competitive annual
         percentage rate and fee structure.  Both our Gold and Classic
         cards offer many member benefits including the opportunity to
         waive annual fees and a 25 day grace period.

         If you have further questions, please call Mary Madden,
         DTN/223-6735 or 508/493-6735, x207.
******************************************************************************

    
    RE: .33
    
    So they tripled.  What was the ACTUAL figure vs. the industry standard
    (which I would hope would already be worked into the return on
    investment equation).
    
    Was the deliquency previously 1% and it tripled to 3% with an industry
    norm of 8%???  Is a delinquency just a late payment or payments which
    have not been payed within 90 days of becoming due?
    
    Interesting that they should state the exact percentage of card
    holders that pay in full each month.  Is that above or below the
    industry norm?  After accumulating a year's worth of purchase history
    on each DCU cardholder, I'm sure they also know WHO pays every month
    and how much they have charged in the last year.  What percentage of
    the prompt payers do you hope to weed out with the raise in minimum
    purchases?
    
    And for the most hilarious part, the "card production expenses".  Did
    it ever occur to DCU to make their card LAST LONGER THAN A YEAR! 
    That's what mine lasted for so maybe others' last longer.
    
    I don't know why but I feel like we just a real line of BS from DCU.
    

   One of  the  topics  of  my  hour on the phone (primarily concerning the
   Paymate fiasco) was the sharing of information.  I hope I got across the
   need  to be more forthcoming with information they might have previously
   withheld.   The response about Paymate and this Visa response shows they
   are  posting  more  data  than perhaps they would have done in the past.
   I'd  say give them the benefit of the doubt for now before judging them.

   Maybe they  thought  they had posted enough data but you are looking for
   more.  Ask specifically for the things you are wondering, and who knows?
   Maybe  they  will  respond with the data you want.  I'm not happy either
   with  what  appeared  to  be their sandbagging of questions in the past.
   But if you post something on the order of "I'd like to know exactly what
   your delinquency rate is to know if it's significant", perhaps they will
   answer  your  question.   If you just imply that they never tell you the
   information  you  want, especially after they just posted more data than
   they  were  required  to  post,  they'll  just  assume that nothing will
   satisfy you and won't do anything.

   Now if we can just get them to tell us the scoop on the pres, that would
   be great! I was not pleased with their response.  They say that only the
   board  of  directors really know.  The DCU employees even don't know the
   whole story.

   I suggested  they participate in the notes file, and they would like to,
   but security and policies won't let them.  But the moderators do forward
   some  notes (after removing the author header as per dec policy), and do
   post responses (thus the Paymate and Visa response).

    
    RE: .-1
    
    I agree.  DCU is responding with more information than they used to. 
    But only after almost constant prodding.  The quoting of statistics
    combined with the usage of ambiguous terms is a meaningless answer in
    my book.  It smacks of a politician dodging a tough question.  And the
    more they dodge, the more questions and concerns people have.
    
    DCU is member owned institution.  It exists for the benefit of it's
    members.  Why do they not communicate more openly and honestly with
    it "owners"?  Granted it better than it used to be but it still has a
    long way to go.
    
    

   I don't have enough info to know whether they are just dodging questions
   or  are really supplying more data.  I've been known to give people both
   barrels  when  they  are being obstinate, but I usually try to make sure
   they  really  are  being obstinate first.  Ask some direct questions for
   specific pieces of data you want, and see what happens.  Let us know.

    Has anyone out there had problems with increasing their credit limit? I
    have had my DCU Visa card for 2 yrs. with a measly credit limit. I pay
    my bill every month and there hasn't been any problems up till now. I've
    recently become a homeowner and discovered that my $750.00 limit doesn't 
    allow me to purchase large items that go in the home. So, I called up
    DCU to increase my credit limit. It turns out that I can't get my
    credit increased until I fill out another application form. This is a
    pain but I filled out the form and sent it in. 
    
    A few days later, someone from DCU called me and said that she needed
    the account number of my mortgage. When I got back to her with the
    info., she informed me that I had sent in two old paystubs. My paystub 
    was from April! She said that I had to mail a new one to her (it has to 
    be less than 2 weeks old!) This is a pain. She also informs me that she 
    needs the name, address, and phone number of my closest friend! I said 
    that it sounded silly and asked why. She said they need this info. 
    because if I left town, I would call a friend and tell them about it before 
    telling my own parents! This is ridiculous. I don't want to give out the 
    names of my friends, addresses, and phone numbers. 
    
    I think that DCU has gone too far. 
    
    I don't know why they are giving me such a hard time. I could
    understand if I didn't pay my bills or had no previous credit but I pay
    my bills religiously and have excellent credit. 
    
     

DCU employees don't have access to Easynet for security reasons, but aren't
all board members DEC employees?  Board members know why they fired Mangone.

I presume that they don't want to discuss it because there are pending
legal actions.  But I agree that it would be nice if board members would
participate in this notesfile.

    
    Re .38 (increasing credit limit)
    
    Sounds like you're with the wrong bank (credit-card-wise). I have a
    Mastercard thru Bank of Boston (had it for a long time, 6 or 7 years)
    and as I use it more, they increase the limit (had the limit increased
    3 times in the last 3 years, I use it a lot). In the last few years,
    it went from $4k, to $5.5K, and just recently to $7K. I never asked for
    any of the increases, they just seem to see how much I use it, and
    increase it periodically. I like to have the flexibility of a high
    limit (I already own a house, so I don't have to worry about the
    high limit endangering my chance for a mortgage). Reason I have it
    thru Bank of Boston is they were the first one to give it to me when
    I was starting out after leaving the military 10 years ago, and they
    were very easy to get a card from in the early 80's when I got mine.
    
    So, try another bank. Some give better service than DCU in credit
    cards. My rate isn't as good as DCU, but I don't have the hassles
    that DCU gives, either. FWIW.
    
    Fred

    Re .38/40:  (increasing credit limit)
    
>   Sounds like you're with the wrong bank (credit-card-wise). I have a
>   Mastercard thru Bank of Boston (had it for a long time, 6 or 7 years)
>   and as I use it more, they increase the limit (had the limit increased
>   3 times in the last 3 years, I use it a lot). In the last few years,
>   it went from $4k, to $5.5K, and just recently to $7K. I never asked for
>   any of the increases, they just seem to see how much I use it, and
>   increase it periodically. I like to have the flexibility of a high
>   limit (I already own a house, so I don't have to worry about the
>   high limit endangering my chance for a mortgage).
    
    Indeed, many credit card issuers raise the limits automatically (it
    encourages more use, which is just what they want) as the cardholder
    establishes his/her credit history with them.  Lenders are forever
    doing risk assessments on their portfolios; the additional risks that
    might be associated with raising limits this way are probably more than
    covered by the cardholder's ongoing lending experience.
    
    I don't think DCU looks at things this way.  I'd rather do the bulk of
    my business with a financial institution that places a value on
    long-term customer relationships.  USAA is one such organization and
    has been discussed in this conference.  You might not be eligible for
    USAA membership (present/past US military officers and their immediate
    families), but you CAN get a Visa or Master Card from the USAA Federal
    Savings Bank.  With no annual fee and a finance charge below 15%, it's
    hard to beat.

    >I don't think DCU looks at things this way.  I'd rather do the bulk of
    >my business with a financial institution that places a value on
    >long-term customer relationships.  USAA is one such organization and
    >has been discussed in this conference.  You might not be eligible for
    >USAA membership (present/past US military officers and their immediate
    >families), but you CAN get a Visa or Master Card from the USAA Federal
    >Savings Bank.  With no annual fee and a finance charge below 15%, it's
    >hard to beat.
    
    USAA is excellent.  Low rates, free card and on top of that they are a
    DEC customer.
    
    I know how the person feels about trying to get an increase in credit
    as I went throug it once also.  Ended making copies of my pay stub
    twice and multiple phone calls...  For local banking Granite State in
    Manchester, NH is looking better and better, even if I have to drive a
    few miles.
    
    DCU is loosing customer faith.
    
    	- mark

>                           -< Do we STILL own DCU? >-
>    DCU is loosing customer faith.
    
    RE: -.1
    
    IMO, I don't think we do own DCU.  Not when it is lending millions of
    dollars to Cape developers and it's own members can't get decent
    returns on savings or a break on a loan.
    
    As for loosing "customer" faith, I believe that is a major problem. 
    Not the loosing of the faith so much as the perception that we are
    "customers".  We are NOT just customers, we are owners.  DCU is
    supposed to exist for our benefit.  Until we get the powers that be to
    return to the roots of what a CU should be, we will be discussing this
    for a LONG time.
    
    DCU had better wake up and realize that convenience will carry them
    only so far.
    

    Re .-1
    
    Whilst I'm not one that thinks DCU is best thing under the sun I would
    like to point out that ALL of the owners get a chance each year to
    vote for the DCU board. To date WE the OWNERS seem to return the
    imcumbents. I guess that implies that WE are happy with the status quo.
    
    Me I don't even bother to vote. Things aren't bad enough for me to be
    bothered. There's an ATM in the lobby as I walk into LKG and I can
    write checks for free. Beyond that I don't care.
    
    Dave

    Just a reminder to folks with the DCU Visa cards, there's a
    sneaky [since they don't give a running total on your monthly
    statements] charge coming up at the end of the year.
    
    For regular card holders, if you have not yet charged $3k total
    for the year, you will be charged a $15 annual fee.  For Gold
    cardholders, if you have not yet charged $6k total for the year,
    you will be charged a $30 annual fee.  The DCU annual percentage
    rate is 15.5%.  FWIW, the ATT Visa card (800 852 8880) has no
    annual fee and has a 16.4% annual percentage rate.  -kb
    
    (this brings my involvement in DCU down to just the basic $5
    sharedraft account; just enough to left to vote...)    

>>  FWIW, the ATT Visa card (800 852 8880) has no
>>    annual fee and has a 16.4% annual percentage rate.  -kb


  I thought it was Free only for charter members!!!

  A really free one and less than 14% is USAA's card.

    
>>  FWIW, the ATT Visa card (800 852 8880) has no
>>    annual fee and has a 16.4% annual percentage rate.  -kb

    And I just received a letter in the mail last Friday (seperate
    mailing!) stating that they have lowered their interest rates AGAIN. 
    Twice this year I believe.  I think the new rates are in the 15% range
    but can't remember the exact number.

>  I thought it was Free only for charter members!!!
>  A really free one and less than 14% is USAA's card.

    Yes, I think you're right.  I think their is now an annual fee.  I 
    got mine when they first offered them.  Definitely a deal too good to 
    pass up.  USAA's is excellent too, but don't they have some
    restrictions on who can apply?  (probably another note)
    

    >pass up.  USAA's is excellent too, but don't they have some
    >restrictions on who can apply?  (probably another note)
    
    Yep.  Must be part of amred services or a relative of someone who was
    in services.  Exception is anyone in NH can apply.  Make sure you
    tell them, as they do not always know this.  I guess a few other states
    have some law on the book also allowing this.
    
    	-mark

>    <<< Note 220.48 by STAR::BUDA "DCU Elections - Vote for a change..." >>>
>                                   -< USAA >-
>
>    >pass up.  USAA's is excellent too, but don't they have some
>    >restrictions on who can apply?  (probably another note)
>    
>    Yep.  Must be part of amred services or a relative of someone who was
>    in services.  Exception is anyone in NH can apply.  Make sure you
>    tell them, as they do not always know this.  I guess a few other states
>    have some law on the book also allowing this.
>    
>

WRONG!!!!!!  I have a card and I do NOT nor have I ever lived in N.H.!!!  I
don't know of any such law here and they told me of NO restrictions when I
applied.

Their number is 1-800-992-9092.  I believe I applied while I was in Mass but
I am not sure.  In anycase I have no relatives in the military and I never
have been either.  They have been extremely nice to deal with and their current
interest rate is less than 14% with the 25 day grace period for people who
don't want to pay interest.

  A few years back I got my parents to apply.  They used their card in India
to have some goods shipped back.  When they didn't arrive USAA removed the 
charge.  When the package arrived 9 months later they said that they could
not bill us because there was no way to put the charge back after that
period of time ;-.] ;-.] 

  Needless to say we have been extremely happy with USAA.  From all the
communications I have had with them the only thing that they won't do for
non-military is some flavors of insurance.

RE: .49

>Their number is 1-800-992-9092.

"Do-Do-Dee. You have reached a number that is not available from your calling
area. 508-2T." Do you have a number that will work from Mass?

Bryan

    Here is a number from the Colorado Springs telephone directory:
    
    USAA, sales and service:	719-598-8661
    

       Either that or call 800 Directory Assistance.
                                      Denny

This is their nationwide toll-free number.  Be prepared, however, for quite
a bit of forwarding.  And also an up-front (before sending you an application)
request for your SSN, which is "required by their automated system", but which
goes against some people's grain.

  Gee... For people who do that I always seem to get it wrong ;-.]

  I haven't had one notice yet!

    I have a Visa card with another credit union.  They recently instituted
    an annual fee ($20), and a surchage for late payments.  If I remember
    correctly, the interest rate is 14.9%.

    >I have a Visa card with another credit union.  They recently instituted
    >an annual fee ($20), and a surchage for late payments.  If I remember
    >correctly, the interest rate is 14.9%.
    
    Well now you know of a couple other places to shop around.  Wonder if
    DCU will ever get as cheap as the other credit union?
    
    	- mark

So what's USAA anyway?

    re .47  ATT has no annual fee, provided you use it at least once a
    year.  If that means you become a "charter member", then you're
    right.  The card also comes in regular or gold ($5k limit to start;
    usual gold benefits) octanes, plus offers a few misc benefits (that
    banks or credit unions without their own long distance telephone
    carrier have trouble matching ;-))  -kb
    

	I have a Bank 1 gold Visa card.  No fee ever (so they claim) so long as 
I use it once a year.  $7500 credit line.  I received the application in the 
mail, filled it out without my SSN, signed it and sent it in.  A couple of
weeks later, my card arrived.  No hassle about the SSN.

	I don't know what the interest rate is since I never roll charges.

							--D

    USAA is a large DEC customer with many VAX's.  They are a savings bank
    (correct me if I am wrong) that was set up for military familes and
    relatives.  They offer insurance, banking services, and many other
    services.
    
    Very nice people.
    
    	- mark

    Re .60/.61:
    
    As has been described elsewhere in this conference, USAA = "United
    Services Automobile Association".  It's PRIMARILY an insurance company
    that limits its offerings to its members, who are past/present officers
    of the U.S. military and Public Health Service.  New Hampshire
    insurance regulations make USAA insurance available to non-members.
    
    The USAA Federal Savings Bank was set up to provide financial services
    to this same group, but its federal charter makes it open to all.

    If you are or were a dependent of somebody who had a USAA policy,
    you are also eligible.

    Re .64:	(Maybe we should move all this to a USAA thread)
    
>     This is only partially true - you are eligible for insurance
>   through a subsidiary of USAA.  (Called "CIC"  I think.)
    
    I omitted USAA-CIC from my description because I thought it an
    unnecessary complexity.  What you say is true, though.  Any former
    dependent (child, grandchild, ex-spouse) with a good record (yes,
    USAA-CIC is somewhat selective) may apply for USAA-CIC coverage.  They
    do NOT become USAA members (only U.S. military officers qualify there),
    but they DO get the same rates and service.

>     The difference is that USAA  operates like a "credit 
>   union".  When they have a profitable year,  they return
>   "dividends"  to the military policy holders in the form of 
>   a special credit against their insurance premiums.  This is
>   not generally done for the "non-military"  policy holders.

    USAA maintains a "subscribers savings account", to which dividends are
    added from their profits, based upon one's premiums paid during the
    year.  If the amount on account exceeds a stated limit (currently in
    the $2000 range), the excess is returned in the form of a check.
    
>     I've had USAA-CIC for 12 years now, and have been very 
>   pleased with them,  but only got the "Dividend"  once when
>   they apparantly had an extremely good year in the early
>   1980's.
    
    I've been a USAA member for 20 years now and I echo your sentiment. 
    USAA operates at a loss in Massachusetts (local restrictions force USAA
    to provide a disproportionate subsidy of the "reinsurance pool" due to
    the relatively small number of USAA members here), so Massachusetts auto
    insurance premiums no longer apply toward the dividend calculation.
    
    To return to the original question, though, ANYONE can apply for a
    Master Card from USAA Federal Savings Bank.  It's fee-free and its
    A.P.R. (currently in the 13% range) beats the heck out of DCU's.

re: All interest Rates over 12%

    If interest  rate is important, have you considered these cards with
    an 8.5% annual rate, or even some Bank-One (Bank1) cards at 12.5% ?
    
    Bob
        

I have a long-standing complaint with the DCU Visa statements that
has finally pushed me over the edge. 

Could someone please explain why the Visa statement has to have
two different boxes for two different finance charge amounts, and two
different boxes for two different balance amounts?  I've never seen
any other credit card company report things this way.  The wording on
the boxes isn't at all clear.

   Gary

    My Preferred VISA card lists 3 finance charge and balance boxes for:
    purchases, cash advances, and total. What do the boxes on the DEFCU
    VISA statement say?
    
    -Glenn-

    
    these boxes confused me a while back and it seemed I was paying finance
    charges because I didn't pay enough attaention.
    
    I called the 800 number and they unraveled it all, and they refubnded
    the finance charges.
    
    Simon

re: .68

Sorry.  I'd forgotten about the separation between purchases and cash
advances that some companies do.

In the case of the DCU statement, there's a box marked "Finance Charges
Paid" with no indication of the period covered, a box marked "Balance"
or "New Balance", a box below it marked "Finance Charges" (or something 
more complicated), and a box below that marked "Payoff Amount", containing 
the sum of the Balance and Finance Charages.  (All
quotes are approximate, since I don't have my statement in front of 
me.)  

So which balance is the current balance?  What's the difference between
a balance and a payoff amount?  What are the dates for the two finance
charge boxes?

   Gary

Thanks for the info both here, and by mail.

Having just gotten a new statement, and struggling to figure out how
to enter it into Quicken, I realized that I was hoping for a response
here along the lines of note 641, where requests were made to change
the regular checking statement for easing entry into Quicken.  What can
I do to forward this request to the right people at the DCU?  I'd
really like to see the same summary I see on each of my other credit
cards (I have a handful, and the other's are all pretty much the same):

	Previous Balance:
	- Payments and Credits
	+ New Purchases
	+ New Cash Advances
	+ Finance Charges
	= New Balance.

If everyone else can do this, why can't DCU?

By the way, I took the time to read the back of the statement.  It
says that there will be no additonal Finance Charge if you pay the New
Balance (including the Finance Charge Due) by the due date.  Of course,
the New Balance on the front doesn't include the Finance Charge Due; 
that's included in the Payoff amount.  I'd love to see what some
consumer-minded judge would do with that wording, if it ever came to
that.

   Gary

I have no problem with the statements (I use MoneyCounts BTW).  It is all 
right there.  WHat the current balance is, how much interest was charged 
during the last period, what charges and payments were made and the extra 
helpful information as to what the payoff is on the account and the future 
interest charge would be.

Jilly

>I have no problem with the statements (I use MoneyCounts BTW).  It is all 
>right there.  WHat the current balance is, how much interest was charged 
>during the last period, what charges and payments were made and the extra 
>helpful information as to what the payoff is on the account and the future 
>interest charge would be.

Well, yes, according to your description, you do have a problem with
the statement.  According to the above paragraph, the statement shows
interest during the last period, and future interest, but not the current
interest.  Get my point?  Your explanation is just as ambiguous and
confusing as the statement; it's also, I believe, wrong.  (It's not
future interest charge; it's a charge you already owe.)

Let me put it this way:  Suppose you want to pay off your balance, so that
you aren't charged interest the next month, but you don't want to pay
a penny extra.  With all the other credit cards I've seen, all you do is
pay the New Balance, and, by george, that's the only number that ever
appears on the statement with any indication that that's what you now
owe.

But with the DCU statements, there are two such numbers.  Which one do
you pick?  How can you deduce from the front of the statement which
one to pick.  My point is that the answer to this statement ought to
be totally obvious, without having to read the fine print, without having
to call the DCU for an explanation, and without having to learn new jargon
like "payoff".

   Gary

>But with the DCU statements, there are two such numbers.  Which one do
>you pick?
    
    Gary, exactly what are the two numbers labelled and are they always
    roughly equal in amount (which could lead to confusion)?

I was pondering how this can be so confusing ... I haven't had my first DCU
Visa statement yet :-)  However, what is coming clear now is that the
problem is because of the way different institutions calculate and charge
their interest and because of the billing and payment dates.

With MANY credit card issuers ...

The problem ONLY occurs when you carry an interest bearing balance ...

For arguments sake, let's say interest is 1% per month and you have a
$2000.00 balance.  Due date is 25 days AFTER the statement date.
Statement date is March 1 and Payment Date is March 25.

March 1		Balance Carried Forward	$2000.00
March 1		Interest for February	$  20.00
March 1		Outstanding Balance	$2020.00

Now, if you make your payment on the Due Date of March 25 you will have
accrued interest of $16.29 on $2020.00 between March 1 and March 25.

So, technically to totally pay off the bill on March 25, your payment
should be $2036.29   If you only pay $2020.00, you will have an interest
charge on your April 1 statement of $16.29 (assuming you make no other
purchases ... if you make other purchases, they join the interest bearing
balance).

Some issuers will go so far, especially when credit card rates were nearly
2% per month, of continuing the interest and only waive it when it is less
than say 10 cents.  So in this case, the $16.29 would then attract interest
for the following month of around $0.16 !  Talk about hard to really
CLEAR your balance!

Now some issuers charge you a higher interest rate, but they do NOT
charge you the interest between the statement date and the date payment
is received PROVIDING you pay the Outstanding Balance in Full.

From what people are describing, this $16.29 is the future interest charge.
So, if you paid your $2020.00 on the 12th of March, your future interest
would about $8.12.

Confused ?  Read the Credit Card issuers' disclosure statements on how
they a) calculate interest, b) charge the interest and c) what classes as
interest bearing balances.

One common confusion is that most issuers say that if you carry an interest
bearing balance in any month, then, any purchases also attract interest too
from the date of posting.  You lose the 25 day no interest period on new
purchases!  And remember that "future interest charge" is often classed as
an interest bearing balance if you don't pay it up front!

Stuart

re: .74

Yes, they are always roughly equal.  In fact, what they are is:

	New Balance
	Finance Charge Due
	Payoff Amount

where Payoff = New Balance + Finance Charge Due.  Actually, I'm not
quite sure about the labelling of the Finance Charge Due line, but I
am sure of the other two.  My best understanding to date is that what
DCU calls "Payoff Amount", everyone else calls "New Balance", and no
one else bothers with what DCU calls "New Balance."

re: .75
 
>March 1         Balance Carried Forward $2000.00
>March 1         Interest for February   $  20.00
>March 1         Outstanding Balance     $2020.00

To clarify, what you're calling Balance Carried Forward would have
been shown on the February 1 statement as Outstanding Balance (using
your terminology).  

What you're missing is that if you pay the balance in full (whatever
"balance" means), and you have no cash advances, they waive the interest.  So, 
using your example:

>From what people are describing, this $16.29 is the future interest charge.
>So, if you paid your $2020.00 on the 12th of March, your future interest
>would about $8.12.

you wouldn't owe the $8.12.  On the other hand, if on March 12, you 
only payed $2000.00, then you would owe the $8.12, plus an additional
20 days of interest (through April 1) on the remaining $20.

That's largely what's instigating this complaint (although, frankly, 
there's tremendous room for improvement just in presentation).  The DCU
statement has some uninteresting sum, analogous (but not identical) to the 
$2000 above, labelled New Balance.  But, while paying off the New Balance on 
other credit cards means you won't get socked with interest next month 
(ignoring cash  advances), if you pay the New Balance on your DCU VISA, 
you'd better be prepared to pay interest the next month.

   Gary

I got my first DCU Visa statement on Saturday and now I understand the
source of the confusion.

While labelled a little strangely, the 3 boxes on the bottom right are
an accurate reflection of this month's purchases / advances and the interest
added into this month's bill.

The unusual box that I've never seen before is the one towards the bottom
left ... Finance Charge paid (or words to that effect).  What this LOOKS
like and its raison d'etre is how much of your previous month's payment
actually went to interest.  Since the minimum payment is bigger than the 
interest charge, you'd think that this is redundant, since payments go
to interest first and then previous charges and then new charges.  BUT
there is ONE thing that gets paid before these ... the LATE CHARGE.  So
there are circumstances therefore where your payment may not cover ALL the
finance charge when you've incurred a late charge, so they then show how
much of the finance charge you really paid.

Terminology is definitely different on the DCU statement.

Stuart

Let's clarify and correct the imaginary statement a bit ...

March 1 statement would look like this (assuming no new charges)

Feb. 1		Balance Carried forward		2000.00
Feb. 25		Payment received		 500.00
Mar. 1		Interest for February		  20.00
Mar. 1		Payoff Amount			1520.00

From my understanding of the disclosure statement, you will still be
charged interest on the $1520 between Mar. 1 and the date your payment
is received by DCU, even if you pay the whole $1520 and it will appear
on your April statement and will cost approximately 51 cents per day.
When that interest is paid, your account is considered clear.

Stuart

re: .77

Perhaps that made sense back in the days when interest was compounded
differently from principal, or not compounded at all.  These days, as far as I 
know, interest and late charges are folded into the principal for subsequent 
months.  So that number is rarely, if ever, interesting.  

re: .78

Your table is right, except that everyone else in the world uses New Balance 
to refer to what DCU calls Payoff.

But:

>From my understanding of the disclosure statement, you will still be
>charged interest on the $1520 between Mar. 1 and the date your payment
>is received by DCU, even if you pay the whole $1520 and it will appear
>on your April statement and will cost approximately 51 cents per day.
>When that interest is paid, your account is considered clear.

I read the disclosure statement differently.  If I pay the
whole $1520 before the due date, the interest on it accumulated between March 
1 and the date the payment is received is waived.

   Gary

New subject, old note...

Would someone at DCU please change the VISA statement form to list the New
Balance somewhere on the upper summary line?

Every other credit card statement or utility bill I get lists the New
Balance in an easy to find area.  DCU VISA statement lists everything BUT
the New Balance -- they tuck that away in small print on the bottom of the
page.  Even FINANCE CHARGE gets larger print than the New Balance or Payoff
Amount.

A little reformatting of the page seems to be in order.

-Mike

They do that on purpose - to encourage you to pay the minimum payment.  I've
seen that on other credit card bills in the past.  I agree it's a pain.

			Steve