Conference unifix::sailing

    This is gonna be interesting!!!!
    
    The articles I've seen in the trade press make one thing clear about
    this topic... there ain't no middle ground on this issue.
    
    Personally I wouldn't carry a firearm. Guns, as weapons, are for
    killing and you'd better be prepared to kill someone when you pick it
    up in fear. Of course if you have it around to pick up in anger you
    might kill someone you love. Or they you. 
    
    The major threat to humans in that part of the world appears to be
    other humans who want a boat to haul drugs (personal opnion). If they
    decide they want your boat no single firearm is going to stop them.
    They'll probably kill you and everyone on board anyway. The best
    defense is to be smart about where you go and when you go there (ala
    being street smart). Your friends should talk with other cruisers and
    let folks know where they are. 
    
    Definitely have your friends talk to the Coast Guard, US Customs
    and the Customs services of the countries they're planning to visit
    to find out what the rules and regs for bringing firearms in and
    out are. Trade press articles indicate that some places feel very
    strongly about folks bringing in firearms.
    
    If they take a weapon, my recommendation would be to take a pump or
    automatic shotgun and some fragmentation grenades. A sawed off barrel
    would be best but they'll probably get into trouble with that. They
    might take a clay pigeon thrower along for appearances.
    
    Ed 

     I have a good friend who lives in West Palm Beach and cruises that
    area alot. I once asked him the same question and his answer was
    much like that of reply .1.
    
     1. If someone is going to kill you to take your boat for running
    dope, they are probably more prepared to do that and even if you
    do have a gun, they will probably win anyway.
    
     2. hijacking sail boats is not real popular with dope runners.
    They prefer boats that are capable of going REAL fast. As i understand
    it, this sort of thing does happen with high speed motor boats.
    
      for what ever it's worth...

        We did a winter charter in the Bahamas a couple years ago.  The
        preceding year's Cruising Guide (essential to have, by the way)
        had stated that problems with drug runners were negligible.  The
        next revision contained any number of stern warnings along the
        lines of:
        
                UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES remain in the vicinity of
                any suspicious operation.
        
                UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES use your radio to report
                unusual activity.
       
                UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES sail across the bank at
                night.
       
                UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES pick up or allow yourself
                to be boarded by an unfamiliar crewperson.
         
               WHENEVER POSSIBLE sail in the company of another
               vessel who's crew is known to you.
        
        We also got into a dockside conversation with a professional
        charter captain who claimed to have shot it out with a drug
        runner while on the very vessel we had chartered.  He was at the
        helm operating a .44 magnum and he had two crewpersons lying down
        in the cockpit firing shotguns loaded with rifled slugs.
        
        I agree, however, with the preceding replies - the best strategy
        of all is to stay out of trouble.  Something like 50% of the
        murders in Miami are committed with machine guns.  Trying to
        out-arm the runners is hopeless.
        

    A recent issue of Boaters Magazine contained an article dealing with
    one of the more painful realities of cruising. Four people were murdered
    in a remote anchorage in the Carribean, apparent motive being robbery.
    Events like this have always concerned me, and did not find any references
    in this conference regarding how sailor folks dealt with the issue of
    personal security. This seems an important consideration when leaving the 
    relative security of a land-based home, with its barking dogs,local police,
    proximity of neighbors-for travel to areas which may be unfamiliar and 
    potentially dangerous. I'm not interested in the politics of this issue or
    the religious wars people tend to have about 'packing a piece' VS 'guns 
    kill people'. My query is purely pragmatic, just interested in some of the 
    options one has in maintaining a reasonable amount of personal security on
    the cruising trek. Look forward to any advice from our floating noters.
    
    Dirk
    
    
    

    from a purely hypothetical point of view...as i never expect to be in
    position to find out for sure....
    
    i am not one to accept the "give up thy life with meek abjection"
    scenario.  if the nefariuous slime have decided that my boat is
    desirable and plan to make me shark food, then they probably will
    succeed.  
    
    i do owe it to you though to make the cost high as possible.  and why
    not?  so mossberg makes a neat mariner model.  seven 3" 00buck is
    effective out to about forty yards.
    
    pls forgive errors....am truly single handed today....sailing accident.
    

You already have one weapon "flare gun" a face full of phospohorus

is not funny.  For close in say 20-50 ft. a 12 gauge pump would be nice.

If you have warning, a high powered rifle with scope/ semi-automatic

would do fine.


Some folks would say launching a flare inside/ on the boat would not

be a good idea, but in a pinch???????????????

I see no reason for not defending yourself.

JIm

    Having a gun on-board is all well and good, however the other side of
    that coin is the trouble that it can get you in.
    
    In some countries that you might sail to, the gun is illegal because of
    type, presence etc.  as a result cruisers can get into a fix simply by
    having one.
    
    There is also the effect of using a gun.  There was a Canadian guy who
    was attacked in Italy by a bunch of robbers, when the bad guys were
    making their getaway, he shot one of them.  He had been sufficiently
    assaulted in my mind to justify the shot, however when he killed a
    local, he was arrested and charged with murder.  I believe that he is
    still in an Italian jail and that he lost his boat etc.
    
    Similarly in the discussion on the Whitbread fleet, the incident whre
    the French held the robber while the Police arrived.  The 2 french guys
    (are probably still) in jail and the first time offender was given a
    slap on the wrist and off he went.
    
    It is a real dilemma, for me I would not carry a weapon on the boat but
    most time I am places where even the most sticky issue can be got
    around with a beer and a smile.
    

    My understanding is that most countires let you check-in your gun and
    return it when you check out.  But that is not my choice.  I plan on
    using a special barrel for my flare gun, that in an emergency, will fire
    a 410 shell.  Otherwise, I plan on maintaining radio contact whenever
    possible.   The best safety is in numbers!  There are numerous carrib
    nets that track voyagers.  From what I have learned from those who are
    cruising or have recently cruised, common sense is our best friend.
    
    I am also interested in others comments as we plan to leave in 5 
    months for the carrib. 
    
    Lee

    in many countries, harming an intruder is a serious offense. I do not
    consider to carry anything even looking like a gun.  
    
    I follow the advise from an article in cruising world: I have a bundle
    of small denomination bills, photocopies from the shipspaper looking
    as real as possible, passports (the real ones) and a good amount
    of amexco traveller checks. We stow it in such a way, that it is not
    too difficult for thieves to "find" it or it could be handed over
    in case we are on board when it happens.
    I know, the passports are a risk. But in my opinion, its the only way
    to make it really looking like your "cruising kitty". Getting new
    passports is not too complicated as we have other documents to proof
    our citizenship.
    
    
    re: beer and smile  
    
    We have been on visit on a canadian boat in St. Lucia, when one of the 
    boatboys approched the boat and forcefully told the owner: give me 1 EC.
    
    Skip: What, 1 EC, for what ? (he was smilling)
    Boy:  For nothing !  (angry, standing more the 6 feet tall upright in his 
    	  little dinghy)
    Skip: 1 EC is a lot for nothing, can't you make a better deal ? 
    
    After 5 minutes dealing, the "boy" handed over vegetables and fruits
    worth 5 EC and received 1 EC in money. (no beer, its 3 EC )
    
    It was a masterpiece of defusing a small harassment which could have
    grown to a real harassment if the wrong words or actions where used.
    
    Ask cruising people, where the trouble spots are. In 1991/1992
    Souffriere  (St. Lucia) was dangerous, Wallilabou (St. Vincent)
    was a very nice place, but everybody avoided it due to the numerous
    "bad" boatboys. St. George in Grenada was offlimit during the night
    (mugging), but Prickly Bay and Secret Harbour was ok.
    
    
    Peter 
    

    Just a practical point - will a 410 shell shot from a handgun (or flare
    gun) not give a kickback that would damage your wrist ?
    
    Paul

    re: a .410 shell
    
    It depends upon the load but it should be sufficiently small enough to
    not be an issue especially if stabilized with the other hand.  I would
    not wish to use a .12 ga shell in a similar fashion though.  
    
    As an aside, the most nervous I have ever been on a boat was during a
    delivery last year when one of the crew announced she had a handgun and
    an AR-15 aboard.  We stopped mid ocean for a swim and everyone got out
    of the water quickly when she showed up on deck with the weapons "in
    case of sharks".  
    
    As far as security goes, you should be able to rig an alarm of some
    sort to alert you of intruders that try to enter the cabin.   This
    could be as simple as a piece of string attached to pots and pans that
    would fall or a light switch turned on if tripped.  This may not deter a 
    determined aggressor but the casual thief may be thwarted by the noise 
    and activity.  
    
    There are also several electronic alarms on the market akin to those
    found in automobiles that could be rigged aboard, complete with remote
    activiation from your bunk.  
    
    Brian

    Read a book titled "20,000 Leagues Over The Sea" written by a chap that 
    circumnavigated in a 32' ketch with a crew of one back in the '30's. He 
    went down the eastern coast of the US, thru Panama and out into the 
    Pacific. He kept a pistol on board and on his person during certain land- 
    falls. He used the gun twice, firing it once, when he was unwittingly
    trapped by an angry elephant seal in the Galapigos. He encountered numerous
    places and peoples, including visits to the Islands of New Guinea to re-
    search cannibalism. Only after crossing the entire Pacific ocean did he 
    need to pull out the pistol in response to a human threat, that was in a 
    Moslem country. The visit was probably a foolish move on his part, but 
    without the gun, he would not have finished the diary of his hi adventure. 
     

    We've found that having a dog on board works well when cruising and
    needing a warning device at night. The only problem comes in when you
    need to take them with you when you are planning to be away from the
    boat a day or two.
    
    Another thought: Anyone ever thought about a crossbow? They're deadly,
    not a firearm and can be manoevered relatively quickly and silently. I
    don't believe you'd have to surrender it when in foreign ports and
    would make an excellent above water spear gun for fish! Any thoughts on
    whether this would be viable??

  Paranoia strikes deep, 
  Into your heart it will creep,
  Comes when you're always alone,
  Step outa line, and the man comes
  To take you away ......

More or less the lyrics from a rock song of long ago. I just can't see 
that the potential risk of a firearm is worth it. Many countries will 
seize your boat (and maybe your body) if an undeclared firearm is found
on board, and if you declare the firearm, the Customs folks will keep it
for you until you leave the country. Bail? What greater flight risk 
could there be than a sailor with an offshore cruising boat?

Re the insert for a flare gun: Sounds like a firearm to me. I wouldn't 
care to have to argue the issue in court in the hopes of getting my boat 
back. And I most certainly don't want to face a murder charge for 
killing someone just to protect my property.

I think Peter Meier has the right idea. In lieu of firearms, we carry an 
aerosol canister of pepper extracts, similar to Mace but supposedly even 
more disabling, blinding, and effective and quite non-lethal. And cheap, 
less than $15 each.

Hey, if you look at crime statistics, there is one country above all in 
which self-protection should be a worry. Yep, right, the United States.
Per capita, far more people are murdered, mugged, whatever, right here at 
home than aboard.

Alan

    A cross bow is a weapon and would (may) have to be
    declared/surrendered where such things are required.  In Bermuda for
    instance, you must surrender your spear gun if you have one so you don't 
    go spearing under or above water.  I wouldn't personally want a weapon on 
    board but if I did, I would want something with a lot of stopping power.  
    A wounded adversary may be more dangerous than a dead one.  One of the 
    principal rules of having a gun is if, you are going to pull it be ready 
    to shoot.  If you are ready to shoot, be ready to kill.  I am not ready to 
    kill anyone so, I most likely would not have a gun aboard other than a 
    flare gun.  I would agree with the U.S. being a dangerous place in
    general especially in urban anchorages.  I would not be fearful in most
    places cruisers tend to congregatge though.  
    
    I would give more credence to having a weapon aboard where piracy is 
    common place such as the South China Sea and similar areas.  There was an 
    article in Cruising World by George Day I believe that spoke of pirates 
    and the like in that area.  It spoke of how one of the cruising
    community turned up missing and of how pirate were dealt with by a
    russian freighter.  It's a different world away from home waters.
    
    Brian

    US Style flare guns are considered to be in the same category as
    shotguns in the UK and as such one person on board must hold a shotgun
    license and the gun must be kept in a gun safe that is inspected by the
    local constabulary. We carry specific one time flares that do not
    require licensing.
    
    I favour the alarm route and perhaps some pepper, I think that when
    cruising if one removes temptation by locking things away and tries not
    to appear to be affluent when ashore in poorer areas. 
    
    Look how many yachts are out cruising and the number of incidents
    involved, you are more likely to be robbed in your car than in your
    boat.
    
    
    Pete
    
    Pete

    The idea of keeping a low profile when ashore is excellent.  Wear a
    cheap watch, one that you can afford to lose.  Stash money in different
    place on your person.  Don't flash cash around, use traveller's checks
    if possible.  Avoid wearing designer labels and/or dress down.  Do not 
    wear large amounts of jewelry i.e. leave the Mr. T starter set (gold 
    chains :-), and the 3 ct. wedding ring at home or somewhere "safe" on the 
    boat.  Try not to travel alone ashore especially at night and especially 
    in unfamiliar territory.  In other words, behave as you should at home in 
    any big city or urban area and you should be relatively safe.  
    
    Brian

    maybe the traditional diving speargun would suffice....
    

    There are almost no incidents recorded of successful repulsion of
    intruders through the use of firearms. There are very few incidents of
    piracy to cruisers, anyway, world-wide. Reports of piracy in the South
    China Seas are mainly to commercial vessels.
    
    There are, however, thousands of incidents of accidental death through
    the use of firearms, especially in the US. Those who own firearms here
    are statistically FAR more likely to be shot than those who are
    weaponless, either by accident, family arguments or crime.
    
    In most countries, even after declaring firearms aboard, one is almost
    certain to be imprisoned instanly for merely brandishing the gun, FOR
    ANY REASON, even self-defense (war zones and the US excepted). 
    
    It's all very well to demonstrate a John Wayne attitude, but this
    approach is the best way to get into trouble, not void it.

  Paranoia strikes deep. 
  Into your life it will creep.
  It starts when you're always afraid.
  Step outa line, and the man comes
  To take you away ......

	Buffalo-Springfield, 1969

A minor point perhaps, but hey! Thats my past you're playing with.

Mike H

Call or write to those places you intend to visit.

Ask them what the rules are.

Plan accordingly.

JIm

    Gentlemen,
    
    Between a discussion of whether Power Boating is more economical than
    Sailing and then a discussion about where to store the AK47 in the main
    cabin, I wonder about the mood in this conference.
    
    re. -1 and the comment about rules ....
    
    I have a rule on my boat that once I bring the boat (perhaps safely) to
    a stationary position after a trip at sea, the crew owe me a 1/4 Lime
    juice, 1/4 Lambs Old Navy Rum and 1/2 ginger ale.  Now should we not be
    talking about those kinds of things (and how those strings attached to
    the sails work) rather than going down a rat-hole that will see us
    shooting Power Boaters because their boats are so much cheaper than
    ours ?
    
    :-)

    Learning a lot, excellent advice and suggestions coming thru about ways
    of protecting your property/person. The options I've counted so far, in no
    particular order, along with my 2cents:
    
    	o Having a firearm aboard (more feasable for US travel) 
    	o Flare gun. Planning a test fire on this idea to get some idea of the
          close range effects. Looks good in the movies tho.
        o Optional flare-gun barrel, tho restrictions apply.
    	o Radio contact
    	o Good Intelligence-gathering of your anticipated destinations
    	o Being part of a group
    	o False cruising kitty (how about a booby-trapped one?)
    	o Alarms
    	o Cruising dog
    	o Aerosols like Pepper extract. Can be difficult to control, tried this
          out once when my two dogs got into a rip-snorting fight. You'd be
          a hurtin' unit letting one of these things go inside a cabin.
        o Low profile/dressdown appearance
        o Defusing small harrasments. 
        o Knives, not yet mentioned here but a logical weapon. Along with a
          rope tied to the yardarm for swinging from one side of the boat to
          the other...
    
    Some other thougths include a response to 399.19 regarding the non-record-
    ing of successful repulsions of intruders thru the use of firearms. Not
    so sure an objective study of this could ever been made. However, there 
    is no doubt that being armed will even the playing field when confronted 
    with an individual intent on causing you bodily harm. 
    
    Another option for one's boat defense strategy is persuing martial art 
    skills. I've been at this ever since Roger Cornigan stole my lunch money in 
    4th grade (just wait 'til I find him). Many types of assaults occur when 
    the perpetrator, like any animal, smells fear or easy prey. Confidence also
    allows you to remain in a collected state if defusing tactics can be 
    applied. 
    
    Thanks for all the valuable inputs so far.
    
    /Dirk
    
    
    
      
    

    It is my opinion, therefore I quote no sources, that the "statistical
    opinion" rendered in .19 is completely wrong and based on false data and
    outright lies by anti-gun crowds.  Since .19 did not quote sources I
    would aprreciate it if he or she would state that his entry is also
    opinion or quote sources instead of presenting it as fact.
    
    I want to talk about sailboats in here, not gun control.  So I'm not
    going to enter a counter.  But if curious, one could cross post that in
    Firearms or Firearms_issues and see the premise get smoked really fast
    ( or perhaps shot full of holes???  :>)
    

    This is a valid discussion in Sailing since it relates to safety while
    cruising. Re .24, call any Chief of Police about statistics of gun
    ownership; it's a documented fact that those who posess guns are far
    more likely to die by them, and that includes posh suberban
    neighborhoods.
    
    As for protecting yourself, even if you have a gun aboard, by the time
    a villain has his sights on you, it's too late to go get a weapon. And
    if you do brandish one, you are far more likely to be injured or dead
    as a result than the "perp", no matter how good you think you are at
    handling stress, aiming, etc. And frankly, you are far more likely to
    use the weapon on a non-violent villain or at least to display it,
    which in most countries will put you in jail pretty rapidly with the
    villain laughing at you.
    
    It simply isn't worth it.

    
    Re:25
    
    "This is a valid discussion in Sailing since it relates to safety while
        cruising."
    
     OK once more.
    
     What are the sources that you are quoting?
    
    Please be specific!
    

I have got to pipe in.

First, my personal beleif is that the United States Constitution gives me 
ALL BY MYSELF the right to bear arms.  By extension, I have the right to bare
legs, and to moon my neighbor. ;}

Second, this is the right in the United States, not necessarily in other 
countries.  When you visit another country you are subject to their laws.  There
is currently a bit of a tussle about a caning in Singapore.

Third, firearms are worthy of being considered for boat defense, as are dogs.
Incidently, both solutions are severly limited in New Zealand, where Amy and
I spent four delightly days car touring the North Island.  As such both were 
valid points of discussion, both the pros and cons.

Fourth, I have never tried pepper, mace etc. it is an intrigueing thought that
in an enclosed area you could effectively be spraying yourself.

Fifth, I think the proper way to solve most pro/con gun discussions is with
thermo nuclear devices at fifty paces.

    
    Last summer in Crisfield, Maryland I met my fiancee's uncle, Joe Marsh.
    He is from Smith Island but is now retired in Florida. 5 years ago
    he, his wife and another couple planned a trip to the carib. The other
    couple went a week before Joe and his wife. When Joe reached the
    rondevous, the other couple was not there and could not be reached by
    radio. Joe anchored to wait a bit in case they went off on a 'jaunt'
    Just about daybreak that morning his radar (proximity) alarm went off.
    He went topside and saw a zodiac with 5-6 apparently local, men in it
    idling in toward his boat. When he called out to see what they wanted
    they did not respond. They were about 150 200 yards out and he felt
    VERY uneasy. He cut the anchor line, called his wife and got moving as
    quickly as he could. When his boat started moving the men opened fire
    with FULL auto machine guns. Joe had two stainless Ruger mini-14 rifles
    he always kept for self protection. He radioed for help and returned
    fire. After his second volly of fire, the men gave up and went the
    other way. When he got in to the nearest port he found out that his
    friends had been found dead on their boat two days prior. While talking
    to local authorites he saw some of the same men in the the same zodiac
    come in to the harbor. He reported it, but there was no interest by
    local police as one of them was related to the chief.
    
    He is certain he would be dead if he had been unarmed.
    
    Gary Johns.

    some much for the statement " there NEVER has been......
    

    Regarding booby trapping anything, in the U.S. this will get you, the
    intended victim of burglary (or worse) on the wrong side of the bars
    looking for a good defense lawyer in a jiffy.  
    
    Brian

I agree whole heartedly.  Better to have more tool than not enough.


Whats happened is society seems to have become afraid of itself.

Seems only crooks have guns, the law biding citizen will be prosecuted.

To this i say B.S.  You wanna dance, i'll play the music...

JIm

    ...elsewhere in this conference. Thought they should be cross-noted here.
    
    From 265.0 MILVAX::SCHUFFELS -
    
    	How do you enter your first Canadien Port?  Do you raise (vhf) the 
        Harbormaster and fly the quarantine flag until he comes out to you. 
        Are there any particular forms you should carry with you? What about 
        liscensed firearms on board? Was never without these when I cruised in
        the Gulf of Mexico.
    
    From 1673.0 CHRCHL::GERMAIN [quoted from Tristan Jones]
    
        Never carry a gun. If you cruise in areas where piracy occurs, then
        the best solution is a few sticks of dynamite. One lit stick lobbed
        into the wheelhouse of a pirate is very discouraging.
    
    RE: -.28 Wow, 2 each, *Stainless steel* Rugers. Not a bad idea, a gun 
    wouldn't tend to get much use, but you wouldn't want to pick up a hunk
    of rusty iron when the time came.
         
    RE: -.30 boobytraps, really didn't have a Claymore in mind for would-be
    burglers. Wonder if they make pepper-spray traps.....
    
     

I can only say that I am pleased to live in and sail around the UK, where the
pirates have all settled down, bought marinas, and continue make immoral but now
legal profits from seafarers :-).

Bad weather, heavy seas, commercial shipping, I can more-or-less predict and
arrange appropriate precautions. The ultimate precaution is to avoid putting
oneself in a position against which one cannot otherwise adequately protect. The
prospect of large numbers of armed people on boats scares me witless. I will
very happily leave these cruising grounds to those who recognise in them aspects
of their own countries which they go cruising to leave behind, wheresoever those
home countries may be in the world.

- Brian

I  like the dynamite idea, what a surprise in an inflatable, or such

smaller craft.

I agree with the shotgun, close in, definitely a winner.

I prefer a 357, guaranateed ventilation and very disabling to the 

machinery/fuel tank.

I still favor the pyro pistol, in case of boarding at night, in teh event

i dont get enough warning.

JIm

Personally, I'd feel a lot better if we could leave all the weapons and violence
on shore. I'm gonna concentrate on protecting my boat from flooding, capsizing,
grounding, dismasting, and fire, and keep a low profile in the hopes that the
criminals will pick on somebody else.

--RS

    re. .37
    
    Unfortunately you can't, exactly like you can't when you're ashore.
    Violence is all around us and the fact that we sail a boat doesn't mean
    that we sail out of this world; it's only another issue you have to add
    to your checklist when you sail.
    Moreover, think of how many people will turn away their heads if you're
    in danger in your town (girls raped in trains or on the kerbstones
    under the eyes of people, it happened and still happens...). What must
    happen of you alone with your wife, children etc, in a lonely, deserted
    place?
    Weapons do are dangerous, even in skilled hands so this seems to me the
    major issue: if you're not able to use them in the best way, don't
    board them on your boat. If you choose to do that, then be sure to be
    skilled enough for using them in the most efficient and safe way,
    either for you and for your opponent, you don't need to kill him, the
    whistle of the bullet close to ears can be REALLY impressive. I know
    it, I've been in the police and never shot into the human target, but,
    yes, VERY close to the ears. It worked super, but be sure you are
    trained to that.
    I'm afraid violence is increasing worldwide so you can't afford to
    hide your head in the bilge, cross your fingers and think positive.
    
    Cheers, Arrigo.
    

    re .28   I was discussing this with one of my crew last night. He tells
    me his boss was in the Carribein 5 or so years ago with her boyfreind
    when some pirates tried to attack them via an inflatable. 3 or 4 rounds
    from their Ruger mini 14 got rid of them (must be the choice of weapons
    among cruisers ;>(  ).
    
    About two months ago there was a blurb on CNN about a big 50 ft boat with
    an English couple on board found floating around in the Carribein. The
    couple was missing and persumed killed. I never heard if they got to
    the bottom of this one.
    
    !  From 1673.0 CHRCHL::GERMAIN [quoted from Tristan Jones]
    
     !       Never carry a gun. If you cruise in areas where piracy occurs,then
     !      the best solution is a few sticks of dynamite. One lit stick lobbed
     !      into the wheelhouse of a pirate is very discouraging.
    
    What??? here we are talking about the proper way to plumb a gas stove
    and in the another note we have REAL explosives on board. This would
    scare me more than a gun on board. Nothing worse then getting popped
    by a port tack idiot at a start line or hitting a reef and half your
    boat vaporizes. Or having to remember about the stuff in the middle of
    fighting a small grease fire on the stove.
    
    Secondly, do you want them that close to you. I'd rather they go away long
    before the boarding lines are set. That would rule out a shot gun for
    the same reason. If they are close enough for you to throw a stick,
    they can easily rake your boat with an automatic weapon. 
    
    I thought the question of crew carrying was a good one. I never thought
    about it, but I know one of my crew loves guns and actively competes in
    tourneys on the weeknights with a wide assortment ( 22s, 357 and 44
    magnums, 40 cal glocks etc) of laser scoped handguns. Many times they
    have a gun on their person. Mind you they are excellant people, and
    know exactly what they are doing (20+ years of competition).  I never
    asked them if they carry it on board. I think I will, and if they do, we
    better understand what to do if we are  boarded by the CG etc. Somehow
    I don't think the Coasties would be too happy. Anyone else I didn't
    know for 25 years, I don't think I want them "riding shotgun".
    
    Us sailors carry extra anchors and chain, flares, water pumps and
    buckets, emergency radios, first aid kits, bungs, impellers, life rafts
    etc to prepare for incidents we hope never happen. Ussually we outfit
    our boats more completely the further we go from home. Is attack from
    another human becoming one we should add to the list or is it peranoia??
    
    john

    From what I am reading here perhaps I should revise my long term plans
    to sail in the ARC and cruise the Eastern Seaboard of the US visting
    the haunts of my college days. A word of caution if any gentlemen enter
    UK waters carrying a firearm with no license it is likely you will be
    dealt with most severly.
    
    Pete
    
    BTW I also shoot clays bur when not in use my shotgun stays in a safe
    and never goes near my yacht.

re .40:

I hope/trust/assume that most of the "gotta have a gun to be safe" 
arguments espoused here are intended for cruising areas outside the US,
such as the Carribbean. 

In the US, many of the actions so far advocated would most likely result 
in significant legal problems for the "law-abiding citizen". To further 
complicate matters, in the US, many laws vary from state to state. Two
examples: What would legally be self-defense in one state might be a
felony in another. In Massachusetts, I cannot legally shoot an intruder
in my house if I can simply, say, walk out the back door safely (or
perhaps jump overboard and swim ashore). To shoot the intruder would be
probably be manslaughter or murder. In other states the law is
different. Massachusetts also has a rather strict gun law. If you are
caught with an unlicensed gun and convicted, the penalty is a mandatory
one year in jail. Some time ago, a non-Massachusetts resident waved a
gun at someone in a Massachusetts anchorage. The local authorities and
the Coast Guard eventualy arrested the gun waver. Simply pointing a gun
at someone is likely illegal. 

We have some good friends who have cruised the US east coast as 
full-time, year-round liveaboards for five years. They've never had a 
problem, and they typically (because of poverty) anchor out in remote 
places. 

If I thought that I'd need a gun to be safe in some cruising area, I'd 
simply go somewhere else instead. The world is full of reasonably safe 
places to cruise. The UK is one of them, I think, and one place I'd very 
much like to sail.

Alan

    Having managed to snatch one of the last TFSO opportunities(!!!) before
    departure for the Carrib, etc., I wanted to say thanks to all the
    noters who have made this conference most interesting and thought-
    provoking.   I have copied this particular note for my wife to read
    and, with her input, we will develop a personal plan for us.  I
    especially want to thank the moderator, who I have never met- as far as
    I know!- for maintaining an informative conference and for his usually
    insightful input on topics.  Sharon and I send our best to all Deccies,
    especially the sailors, and wish y'all strong winds and fair seas in
    the future.  And please make DIGITAL profitable, we need the stock value
    when we get back in a few years!!! (I was in sales, I don't know how to
    make happy faces!!)
    
    Lee Demarest
    BREAKAWAY
    Houston, Texas   
    
                                                       

    re: Note 399.25 by SX4GTO::WANNOOR (& .19 too)
    
    > call any Chief of Police about statistics of gun
    
    I did, and he said you're full of it.  I'm not much of a boater, but
    the major issue here is folks who like to sail while all lit up (i.e.
    intoxicated).  Down in the Florida keys boats get stolen at an alarming
    rate (source: US Coast Guard).  Most likely to be used as disposable
    mules for drug runners.  I imagine it would get rather expensive having
    to keep purchasing a new boat after each drop.
    
    Gun business is brisk at Florida shops located near marinas.  
    
    You, being a boater, should know that it is very easy to repaint a boat
    and add/remove canvas tarps to significantly alter the appearance of
    a boat that the coast guard considers "over due, presumed lost".
    
    As far as your phobia about guns in general, I suggest you get educated
    about the subject elsewhere.  My guns have never hurt anyone.  Crime
    isn't normal where I live either, for the simple fact that most folks
    here are likely to be armed.  (when we were looking at the house we
    bought from an elderly couple I noticed a rifle under their bed). :^)
    Also where I live, I do not have the luxury of dialing 911 and
    expecting the sheriff to arrive within minutes, in fact
    
    > call any Chief of Police
    
    specifically mentioned most folks in this county are "on their own"
    until a deputy or the sheriff can arrive on scene.  Now, to take your
    argument of "I'd be better off not being armed (i.e. being defenseless)
    I'd be dead, and rather than sending the sheriff out, they'd send
    the medical examiner.  In my case, they'd still have to send the ME,
    but not for me.  I'd still be standing.
    
    Ahoy.
    
    MadMike

    .41 Alan as Brian Neale so humourously put it earlier all the pirates
    in the UK have bought marinas and ply their trade on honest seafaring
    folk legally!!!! In many years of cruising the English Channel, both
    sides the most I have experianced is an off colour comment by a
    slightly inebriated fisherman who fell over laughing after the reply he
    got!!!
    
    Thus far safe this side of the pond, but that doesn't mean it will
    always be so as we seem to import some interesting US habits into our
    culture and with the D Day memorials just around the corner I expect to
    see a number of Stars and Stripes out on the water.
    
    
    
    Pete

    >>> Between a discussion of whether Power Boating is more economical
        thaN Sailing and then a discussion about where to store the AK47 
        in the main cabin, I wonder about the mood in this conference.
    
    Since I'm the perpretrator of both those basenotes, maybe I should reply.
    Its all just part of my preparation for the day that you'll see my fare- 
    well to land-based noters. I'm not trying to cast gloom or be a party
    pooper, and the economics and security aspects of this lifestyle might not
    loom large for weekend sailors. But these are sure to become issues if
    your boat becomes your home. I'm not particularly cynical or paraniod about
    the human race, although people are capable of doing anything. In the years
    that I've rented and owned homes, breakins occured on 3 occasions. Never 
    had the luck of being there at the same time as the burglar tho. I have a 
    german shephard that stays home with my wife during the day (by her choice).
    I've changed phone numbers on several occasions over the years to stop 
    repeated obscene phone calls. I believe it was the answering machine that 
    provided my son the x-rated exposures to reality. Hopefully some of this
    will be left behind when the house is sold, but somehow I think that people
    will be people wherever you go.
    
    Dirk
     
    

    I don't trust most boaters behind the wheel, let alone in charge of a
    firearm, and most of them have spent more time and training on boating.
    I believe there's much more danger from the "law abiding" gun owner
    than crooks, even in the South China Seas. Read the SSCA bulletins, and
    you'll find that it's hard to find any confirmed reports of actual
    piracy (especially to cruisers), except the usual thefts, stolen
    dinghies, etc. A gun won't stop that, because you never know 'till it's
    gone.
    
    I can just see it: rowing back to the boat at anchor at night,
    accidentally bump against the wrong one and some drunken or nervous
    gun-owner blows your head off. It looks like it's going to be far more
    likely that a rabid NRA owner is going to cause an "accident" than to
    be caught in a true act of piracy...

    
    Re:47
    
     Since you can't or won't reply to questions about comments you made
    earlier, you just go off and make wild comments about the "rabid NRA
    members"! You would make a good politican if you can't come up with
    facts to support your claims use emotion with no logical!
    
    
    Dave

Speaking as the Moderator:

Please, folks, let's be civil and polite and not stoop to what is coming 
close to name calling. I haven't seen any real facts from anyone in this 
series of replies, just emotion and opinions. May I suggest that 
everyone reread Note 1. Everyone's opinions are to be respected, and
everyone should be free to express his/her opinion without rude or
disparaging replies in return. 

Thank you,

The Moderator

    Please! Calm down. I'll give you an example of the difficulties that
    guns make, and will do the research to find statistics, where they
    exist. It takes time, so you'll just have to wait. 
    
    In our marina a few months ago, a liveaboard went to another
    liveaboard's boat and told him that if his cat got onto his boat again
    he would shoot it. When told that the other could not control the cat's
    behaviour (note: cats use dirt to poop in, not decks), the first went
    back to his boat and brought out his arsenal of many guns (he was
    regarded as a collector and had the NRA stickers on pick-up, boat
    etc.), sat on the deck, and sat and waited for the cat.
    
    He was evicted. Most other places in the world, he would have been
    jailed, poste-haste.
    
    Having all this happen just 50 yards away from where we live, you can
    imagine, is most unnerving to say the least, so perhaps you can now
    understand my concerns. As is quite obvious from crime statistics, not
    all people who own guns are responsible, and a very good proportion of
    firearms deaths are by "law abiding" citizens who lose their head in
    emotional circumstances. This is what I referred to when I said consult
    the local Chief of Police: they have statistics that demonstrate
    classifications of firearms deaths broken down into domestic (eg
    family, neighbor, friend etc.), break-in, drug-related, and so on.
    
    A while back, I had a report published by the attorney-general's office
    that showed thousands of such deaths per year in simple squabbles,
    misunderstandings, etc. I'm looking for it.
    
    It is possible that the cruiser community is far more responsible than
    joe public, but I won't bet my life on it...boating misunderstandings,
    accidents etc. are far too frequent, and for goodness sake don't dinghy
    to the wrong boat at night in error!

Since we're doing SOAPBOX in here now:

There were several hundred people killed in Massachusetts last year by firearms.
(Do I need to quote a source?) Many of the victims and perpetrators were
children. The simple fact is that there are too many firearms in private
possession, without adequate security against inappropriate use. Most other
countries have stringent rules about possession and storage of guns, and they
uniformly have very few gun deaths. This is the situation as viewed from a
public health perspective.

The NRA spends a lot of time and effort lobbying against government restrictions
on the possession, sale, and use of guns. They appear to oppose any and every
restriction, no matter how benign. They spend considerably less time and energy
proposing workable solutions for reducing the widespread possession of guns
by children and untrained users.

The widespread availability of guns is a problem on boats as well as on land.
It takes only a very small fraction of irresponsible gun owners to lead to
a substantial number of gun deaths and injuries. Personally I feel safer
in a country where the likelihood of being confronted by an untrained and
unlicensed gun owner is very low.

--RS

I was flipping through my old Practical Sailors looking for information on 
saftey harnesses when lo and be hold I saw an article on the insert for 
flare guns.

Practical Sailor did not like it from several differnt standpoints.  I will try
to recall them here without assigning importance or undue accuracy of my
statements.

1. There is some question as to the legality of the insert in the United States.

2. In places like Bermuda flare guns must be surrendered, making the insert
   a pointless thing to carry.

3. While the insert is made of a couple of pieces of stainless steel, PS was
   leery of the stress on the flare gun, (Olin 12 ga.?).

4. The spread pattern of the .410 was not all that great.  3' the shot acted
like     a slug.  7' a pretty nice pattern.  15' useful pattern, but accuracy
was down around 75%, 25' pattern would probably just make the assailant mad, and
accuracy was 65%.

5. Time to reload made this essentially a on shot tool.  Not very practical.

If I were to carry a weapon, I would rather use my rifle, with iron sights.

In terms of likehood of trouble.  How does one get an accurate appraisal?  My
cousins are in the merchant marine.  On all three of their ships (integrated
tug, general cargo, and supertanker) the crews stand deck watch in places 
where they are worried about piracy (Indonesia etc.).  This comprises of deck
patrols.  One of my cousins is master of a supertanker, and does NOT issue
weapons to the AB's.  He does not trust their judgement enough.  At night the
decks are lit up like the Strip in Las Vagas.  He has not been approached, but
ships have been boarded.  Usually the money in the safe is all that the pirates
are after, though apparently violence can happen.  I looked at the State
Departments travel advisories for differnt areas and to tell you the turth, they
did not do much good for me.  France and Indonesia (except for Timor) looked
pretty similar on the Compuserv bulletin.  However, I personally would rather
deal with the French.  In no cases did I see information posted specifically for
cruisers or maritime traffic.
 
To drag us back more or less to the topic, how can one best protect themselves
as a stranger in a strange land?  Remember Slocum used both tacks and firearms,
inaddition to discretion.  If we stick to the practical pros and cons instead of
the morality of firearms, cross bows, or explosives, I think we will get further.

So summing up the list once more very quickly:

1. Know before you go.

   Advantage:

	You are never placed in harms way, no troubles.

   Disadvantage:

	You may be the exception which proves the rule.

2. Safety in numbers.

    Advantage/Disavantage:

	See #1

3. Alarms

    Advantage:

	Point warning system for you and yours.

	No known legality problems.

    Disadvantage:

	Insufficent warning to effectively avoid trouble.

4. Decoys

    Advantage:

	Still passively structured.  Hence the probability of violence is 	
        minimal. 

	Losses are contained to an acceptable level.

    Disadvantage:

	No "point" defense.  Bodily harm is possible.

	Inconvience still happens.

	Bad example is set.

5. Non leathal point defence.

    Advantages:

	No know leagal issues.

	Direct action against an assailant.

    Disadvanatages:

	May not incapacitate enough assailants quickly enough.

	May escalate assailants behavior.

	May harm you.

6. Leathal point defence.

    Advantages:

	Potentially best form of point defense.

	Depending on the weapon, assailants can be kept at range.
	
	Effective against all but most determined assailants (ie. military will
	beat you).

    Disadvantages:

	Many potential legal issues.

	May not be practical in many locations.

	Weapons could be used against you if perimeter is breached.

	Likely to escalate non leathal confrontations.

	Practice with weapons must be ongoing to be effective.

	Moral issues to be resolved.


Doug Claflin
dtn 244-7042

    re: .53...
    
    I have to admit, this reply brought visions of Terminator series with
    automated, AI guns floating in the sky and crawling over crushed skulls
    blasting every man, woman, and child in sight.  
    
    Remind me not to come to Massachusetts anytime soon.  Things must have
    changed a lot since I was there.
    
    Here in Michigan (and Detroit) we have several sources of death. 
    Alcolhol on the highways is very high.  But death by firearms is not
    exactly unknown.  A very high percentage is either gang related (drugs)
    or drug related (more drugs).  And there is the domestic quarrel angle
    as well but that is probably a 5% problem.
    
    So I guess we'll ban guns and create another new black market for the
    criminals to gain from.  Also give our law abiding owners the choice
    of going defenseless or becoming felons.
    
    My biggest paranoia with a gun is theft.  My home has been broken into,
    they missed my Citori in the closet and my Glock (phew!).  My sailboat
    lasted intact for 24hrs (got the Loran and VHF) after launch in 1989.  
    My car was stolen, and my company car was stolen from the driveway.  
    So just where oh where do I keep them?  Wear them?
    
    The spirit of this topic is: do you defend yourself or submit?  So
    maybe instead of ripping up the position of the opposition, maybe we
    might just say:
    
    	I'll submit because............
    
    	or
    
    	I choose self defense because..
    
    For those that choose submission, food for thought.
    
    Is crime increasing or decreasing?
    If increasing, is the rate increasing or decreasing?
    What is the end result likely to be?
    Have current laws had any effect?
    Is there any reason to believe that new laws will have any effect?
    
    and finally,
    
    If our society just chooses to pass new laws for the (already)
    law-abiding to live by without focusing on the source of violence and
    the end result (above) is anarchy, will you still just want to submit?
    
    Will you have any choices left?
    
    
    
    

    If you have to carry a firearm on board why not go the hole hog and
    have an assault rifle - I don't know about M16 or Ak47's but our
    swiss assault rifle comes with bipod and can shoot hand grenades too....
    
    Paul
    ;-)

    I would like the moderator to write lock this topic. I have to read
    about guns and killing in the newspaper, but I come here to read about
    SAILING.
    
    Can we please get back to SAILING.

    This is an appropriate discussion about the sailing life. 
    Unfortunately, cruising does not isolate you from the possibilities 
    of crime and personal injury.  In some areas of the world, it increases
    your risks.  It is clear that there is as broad a spectrum of opinions 
    as there are noters.  This is also a very emotional issue which I 
    concur should be approached with as much civility as possible.
    
    Brian

Speaking as the moderator again:

re .60:

This is the second request that this note be write-locked (the other was
in mail to me). I'd rather not write-lock this note as I think that there
are legitimate issuess and concerns being discussed. But, certainly, the
tone of some of the replies has been inappropriate, especially in the
context of this being a Digital-sponsored notesconference. 

re .49:

While I am opposed to censorship in general, I will in the future set 
hidden or delete (without prior warning) any further replies that in my
view violate the spirit of this notesconference in particular and
Digital company policy in general. And, please, no protests about 
freedom of speech or whatever. This is a company-sponsored forum that is 
required to follow company policy.

Thank you for your cooperation,

The Moderator

    Read a book called "The Cruising Lifestyle", about a couple who spent
    their life around the waters of New Zealand. To supplement the cruising 
    kitty they would take on 2-3 passengers during island hops. The skipper 
    preferred them to be either all male or all female, since ocean-bound 
    romances between the passengers created headaches. Not a gun-toting type, 
    he nevertheless found it necessary to carry a shotgun as a security measure
    for the crew. But he never kept it loaded. Seemed like an interesting 
    compromise that worked for him.

    I recognize that to an extent this is a "Sailing" topic, however in
    reality it is much much more the Gun Control argument which is being
    argued with a Sailing bias.  In that light, speaking personally, I have
    made my decisions about how I want to deal with Firearms and given my
    present circumstances I will not change them.  I suspect that most
    others contributing to this note are the same way, that is noone is
    changing their mind on gun control, they are simply putting their frimly 
    held beliefs forward again and again.
    
    If the purpose of the note is to exchange information then this topic
    is failing.  What I have learned is that I am once again very pleased
    that I live where I do and that I can choose not to own or even think
    about owning a gun.
    
    I guess to make my point another way, the discussion is sort of like 
    discussing smoking as a health issue.  THose that have quit or do not
    start, typically believe that their approach is the best/safest.  Those
    that have not have held onto their belief for such a long time that
    they also believe that they are correct.  The only time that I ever
    raise that argument these days is for the fun of a good argument but I
    never expect anyone to change their mind on Smoking.  In the same way
    if, in my analogy the pro-guns-on-board are like the non-smokers and
    the anti-guns-on-board are like the smokers, the positions are too
    entrenched and individually well thought out for anyone to change. 
    Given that, this discussion is stalled at a point where no further
    changes in thought will occur and we should either admit that it is a
    "fun" discussion that we are having, or perhaps we could move on to
    other topics where we can all learn from each others experiences.
    

And then there was the fellow and his wife who went cruising way up in 
Labrador one summer. Got himself a special permit from the Canadian
government to carry a rifle along -- as protection from grumpy polar bears.
Didn't have to use it. 

    write locking seems somewhat radical, does it not?  I seem to find that
    "n u" works just fine unless I would prefer that others don't get to
    read the reply either.  
    
    I would rather make up my own mind, please.
    
    Hiding the notes is a good idea, if there is some turn of phrase which
    can be better said without the emotion then I'm for it.  Since I don't
    now how to modify a topic already written, I usally just delete it.
    

    Since the moderator is tallying opinions, I believe the principal
    thrust of several of these replies concerns the politics of gun
    control, not sailing.  They have also been providing lots of heat and
    very little light.  I'd prefer to see the discussion return to sailing.
    
    Tom

If I were to need to protect my life and my crew's life and I did not provide
protection for them ( let's assume International waters ), would I be
responsible for my crew's deaths??? Seems to me that it is better to have
the ability to protect myself and crew and not need it than to need it and 
not have it. Of course, your milage may vary.

Lowell

    I printed off all the replies to the base note of this discussion, took
    them home for my wife to read and proceeded to have a most interesting
    discussion with her on the topic. It netted out that she was far more
    adamant about having a weapon on board that I was when we finally cut
    the ties to land. The discussions we had provided some very interesting
    insight into items we don't normally delve into in day to day
    conversation.
    
    I would strongly encourage others to do this with their mate.
    Regardless of the what you finally decide, it's certainly worth the
    time to explore and share each other's feelings/fears/etc on the
    subject. Try it!

 >>> If the purpose of the note is to exchange information then this topic is 
    failing.  What I have learned is that I am once again very pleased that I 
    live where I do and that I can choose not to own or even think of owning a
    gun.
    
    If you learned something, then this topic cannot be failing. Personally, if
    the topic is listed under keyword "cruising", then this boater wants to 
    know about it. 

    I read a book a few months ago (sorry can't remember the name off the
    top of my head) about a family cruising on their sailboat in Indonesia
    about ten years ago.  They were approached during the day by a fast
    powerboat while they were just within sight of land.  The wife ran
    below and got a rifle while the man was on the helm trying to outrun
    the powerboat.  As soon as the powerboat got close the wife came up
    on deck and fired a warning shot into the air.  She was immediately
    shot by one of the pirates on the powerboat.... she fell into the sea.
    The pirates boarded and stole watches, jewelry, and money.  The left
    the man and his three or four year old son physically unharmed.
    
    The man recounted the incident in his book and remains convinced that
    his son saved his life, because as the pirates were leaving,
    the last one off his sailboat looked at him and his clinging terrified
    son and in a 'moment of compassion' left without shooting them as
    witnesses.
    
    Later they made it to port and reported the incident to the
    authorities, who claimed that the procedure (pirate powerboat
    overtaking and boarding a cruising sailboat) followed by the theft of
    the cruisers money, and killing and sinking of the sailboat was
    'common' in the  area and they were lucky to have escaped with their lives.
    
    This story implies that they would have been killed whether they had
    been armed or not.  I would rather go out fighting than be killed with
    no means of resistance at my disposal.
    
    Its a real Catch 22 situation.  I agree with those who say that the 
    chances of an individual boat being attacked by pirates is small,
    especially if its not cruising in known pirate areas.  But, in certain
    areas the risk seems to be real enough.
    
    I will be glad if the authorities ever get 'it together' and put the
    balance of the law on the side of innocents.
    
    The law in Massachusetts about not being legally able to defend ones'
    home against intruders in the night must have the criminals laughing
    all the way to the bank.
    
    I would extend my comments about the law in Massachusetts to include
    cruising sailboats.  What do 'they' expect us to do in a remote
    anchorage?  Call the police?
    
    Jeff

    For those of you who can't stand to read about the possibility of
    violence there is an next unseen key.  Nobody is forcing you to read
    this string.
    
    The discussion has included guns because the base topic is boat
    defense, and, guns are one of the tools which could to be used to that
    end.
    
    Write lock it, Why? Its an interesting, distressing, and unfortunately
    relevant topic.
    
    Jeff

re .71
	The incident you relate is unfortunate but all too often true. I think
one of the lessons that can be learned by this is:

	Never warn your assailant that you have the means to defend yourself.

	Never think that you can scare away someone who would do you harm.

	Never assume that the approaching craft is friendly.

	Never be without adequate means to defend yourself.

Lowell

    The recent uploads from the shipping piracy database (there's a copy in
    CompuServe's Sailing Forum) shows that over the past two years there
    has been only one report of piracy against small yachts.  See NAIVINFO 
    NET -ANTI-SHIPPING ACTIVITY MESSAGES-
    
    Attacks on cruising yachts are extremely rare, even in the high danger
    areas off Singapore and Rio de Janiero, for example. In my opinion, the
    risk of carrying firearms and the consequent accident/trouble with
    authorities far outweighs the dubious advantages of carrying aboard.
    
    Of course, apocryphal stories exist. But the preponderence of evidence
    suggests that carrying guns aboard for protection is roughly equivalent
    to never going snorkelling without a speargun in case of a shark
    attack....you're more likely to shoot yourself or another swimmer in
    the leg than getting protection from sharks!
    
    Most attacks were against freighters and fishing vessels. This data is
    compiled from every nautical source available, including info from
    Lloyds.
    
    See also MARAD Advisory numbers 88-6 and 90-4 dealing with piracy
    and terrorism.