Conference unifix::sailing

    I am very happy with Aetna.  Rates have gone down for me every year
    (no claims - even after Gloria).  I have every discount they offer
    and selected 1% deductible.  Of course, since I have had no claims
    I havent any first hand experience with payoffs.  I understand from
    the independent insurance broker I signed up thru that they were
    good though.
    
    Most "Independent Insurance Agent" agents carry Aetna.
    
    Walt

Marine insurance is a rather specialized business. Be sure that you are 
covered for all perils (as the policies quaintly say) rather than just 
named perils. I'd suggest that you contact a competent marine insurance 
broker, eg, Nancy Ronan at the John G Alden Insurance Agency 
(617-227-2848). Nancy has been our broker for a number of years. I'd 
also suggest a large deductible (2% or more) as a way to significantly 
reduce the annual premium. We have a 2% deductible for our hull 
coverage. Our liferaft and inflatable dinghy are covered by an 
endorsement to the hull coverage. The deductible for the liferaft and 
dinghy is $100. Our 1986 premium was $664 for hull coverage (considerably 
more than $46 000), $120 for liability ($500 000), and $96 for the 
dinghy and liferaft. This was for 12 months with November 1st to April 
30th laid up ashore.

Alan

re .1

Contrary to Walt's experience, our insurance has become more expensive 
almost every year, and our cruising limits have become more restricted. 
We used to be able to cruise from Nova Scotia to Morehead City, NC. Now 
we can only sail between Eastport, ME, and Cape May, NJ, without paying 
an additional premium. This is in spite of not having made a claim in 
10 years. My impression is that our experience is not untypical.

    I am currently in the process of switching from Royal to Aetna.
    The binder I have is for around $864 for $100,000 coverage and
    500,000 liability.
    
    I also have a quote from Central Marine Insurance out of Delaware
    for quite a bit less on the same amount of coverage.  They are a
    broker who place the policy with big companies.  They sent me a
    quote from a boat show talk I had with the guy at the Boston show.
    
    Anyone ever deal with them?  A good recommendation might make me
    consider going with them to save the money.
    
    Rick

    Note 287 has a similar topic.
    
    
    FYI, last year John Alden and company hiked my insurance form 
    < $200 to > $400 because my boat was over 10 years old.  I switched
    to National Marina Underwriters for a $180.  I haven't had a claim
    so I don't know how well they pay up.
    
    Happy Boat Show season
    
    Tom
    

   I use Mc Innis in Hingham which writes with several underwriters.
     I am now covered by MOAC with no claims but heard they were reasonable
    on claims with a friend that made one after Gloria.
    
      One additional item to look out for when comparing policies. 
    Be sure to get a 'declared value policy'.  You will then be covered
    for the face amount of the policy rather then a 'depreciated value'
    like when a car is lost.  Even though it runs a little higher I
    believe it is well worth the difference given on the 'added value'
    people tend to put into these costly toys.
     

    Thanks for all your input.  I now have all of the quotes from various
    brokers and insurance companies.
    
    The specifics are as follows:
    
    Boat value = $46K
    Liability  = $300k
    Navigation period = 8 mos. unless otherwise noted
    Deductible quoted for 1% and 2% unless otherwise noted
    
    COMPANY	1%	2%	OPERATING RANGE
    
    Ocean	452	405	Eastport, ME to Cedar Key, FL
    Underwriters
    
    National	541	492	Eastport to Cape May, N.J.
    Marine
    Underwriters
    
    Fitzpatrick	565	494	Same as above
    (Conn.)
    
    Royal Ins.	606	496	Eastport to Cedar Key
    
    INA/AETNA	698	563	Eastport to Cape May
    
    Marine	691	597	Hilton Head, S.C. to Newfoundland
    Office of
    America
    
    BOAT U.S.		$496*	Eastport to Cape May
    
    Metpay	$759**		Coastal U.S.
    
    Nationwide	$389***		Coastal U.S.
    
    * Only quotes 2%
    ** Only quotes $100 deductible
    ***$500 deductible - $1000 deductible is 15% less
    
    Needless to say I took Nationwide (agent Bob Matthew 617-673-2250)
    However, they required supporting insurance so I also insured
    my Escort through them.  It turned out to be $121 cheaper than 
    Metpay for my car insurance.  Who says it doesn't pay to buy
    a boat?
    
    I have the other numbers of companies if anyone is interested.
    
    Encore un ete 

    Can ayone suggest a competitive insurance company. Policy just coming
    up for renewal and I switched boats to a 37 footer, 14000 lbs
    displacement, value approx $30K. Only cruising to Maine and Cape Cod
    this year.

Call Frank Butterworth at John Sise and Company, 603-436-1555. He is 
helpful, knowledgeable, prompt, and he returns phone calls immediately. 
The lowest rate isn't necessarily the best rate. Service from the agent 
and the insurance company more than offsets a somewhat higher premium. 

    You might also call Cindy Bettano at John Alden Insurance Agency
    in Charlestown, Mass, 617-241-8088. They were recently able to give
    me quotes from 4 different carriers and based on my needs, I found
    the right one to insure my 31' power boat.
    
    Fred Smith
    

My experience with John Alden was most unsatisfactory, which is why 
Frank Butterworth is now my broker. It took months and phone calls 
beyond number to get Alden and INA to return the premium they owed me.

    Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Mine has been very good.
    The insurance is with the Chubb Group and not with INA as yours
    was. Might make some difference.
    

    I would recommend Customhouse Marine at (617) 423-9806.  Speak to
    Dick Roche.  I speak from experience that they were very good at
    handling a relatively complicated claim.  Price was right and service
    great.  
    
    Dave

    ok thanx for the replies, but how much are you guys paying? What's a
    good rate for a 1970 glass 37 footer?

    My husband and I are renewing with Amica.  They are based in
    Providence, R.I., buthave offices in Wellesley and Worcester.  I
    have my home owners with them too.  You even get a dividend!  They
    don't have agents on-the-road, so their overhead is low.  All yr.
    work is done by phone or mail.  You could drop in to their office,
    however, if you desired.  I believe (or at least it used to be)
    that the only way they will insure you is if you are recommended
    by a policyholder.  If so, feel free to use our name:  Gail & Peter
    Young, 21 Nadine Rd., Framingham.  My DTN is 297-5117.  My All-In-1
    is on the fritz for some reason, but my vax is still on Eskwyr::Young.
    My intro is in Note 1199.  Good luck.  Also The Prudential sent
    us some literature.  Appears that their towing coverage is quite
    good, but we decided to stick w/Amica.  Let me know what happens.
    Join us when you cruise to the Cape.
    
                          Gail Young

    Didn't see yr. inquiry re $$ (always a consideration, isn't it?!)
    I called Amica (617) 237-7100 just now.  Don't know their 1-800
    #.  Anyway, our fee this yr. is $464 for our O'Day 27 (sail) 1974.
    The premium can be paid in 9 installments when it's this much. 
    Also, all they do is ask who recommended you so feel free to use
    our name.  Although I have never filed a claim with them for anything,
    they paid my sister for loss of diamond ring and my mother for some
    other loss/claim without a problem.  Good luck.

    re .7 and .8 thanx for the info. I'll be sure to give them a call.
    

    I insured my 26 footer and now my 37 with Met pay. For a $1000
    deductable, replacement cost repair, and $80,000 coverage. The
    total cost was less than $350 per year, assuming April thur Oct.
    coverage. I haven't had to use the insurance, so I can't comment
    on their service. In addition to the boat, I also have them cover
    my home and car. The great part of Met pay is the perimums are deducted
    weekly for the pay check, so it doesn't seem to hurt as much. One
    more point, the insurance companies now want to see a clean Driving
    record before they will insure your boat.

re .10:

That's an extremely low premium. There are, as I understand it, two 
types of marine insurance policies -- named peril and all peril. Named 
peril only pays for damages caused by a named peril (ie, collision). All 
peril pays for any damage from any cause. Named peril is usually much 
cheaper because it provides much less coverage. Which type of policy do 
you have? What does replacement cost repair mean? Does this mean, for 
example, that if your mast falls down the insurance will pay for a used
mast only or does it pay for a brand new mast (which is the way the
usual yacht policy is written)? Is there any deduction for depreciation 
when damage occurs? Does the policy include personal liability and
medical coverage? What cruising area is covered? Will Metpay provice
coverage for Canada or other foreign cruising? Does the policy allow you
to charter your boat? Will Metpay provide separate coverage with a lower 
deductible (say $100) for liferafts, dinghies, etc? (If not, my dinghies
and liferaft, both very easily stolen, would be, in effect, uninsured.)
The answers to these questions do change the premium charged, sometimes
considerably.

    
    I went with Nationwide Insurance at the suggestion of previous note
    on this topic.  Midway through last season I did have an occassion
    to test the coverage as the result of an unfortunate (and expensive)
    incident during Marblehead race week.  They paid off very quickly
    on both boats involved with no questions asked.  Never even went
    to look at either boat.  Bob Mathew, the agent, did everything by
    phone with the boatyards.  So far, they haven't cancelled me yet.
    
    Their phone number in Mass. is 617-673-2250.
    
    - gene

    i am paying $240. for a 1978 catalina 30 from allstate. 
    
    jfk
     

    Alan, You have raised some interesting questions. Some that I can
    answer are:
    
    (What does replacement cost mean ?)
    	Some policys will pay you the amount after deperciation. The
    policy I have is upgraded to pay current market price for replacement.
    
    (Does the policy include personal liability)
    	Yes, The figures were $5,000 per person per incident up to $50,000.
    I have, which I didn't mention, elected to get a million dollar
    unbrella liability coverage from Met Pay. This is offered when you
    have you home and car insurance with them and coveres accidents
    on the boat, car and home.
    
    (What cruising area)
    	East coast from Maine to Florida.
    
    (Does the policy allow you to charter your boat?)
    	Don't know, wouldn't want to.
    
    (Will Metpay provide separte coverage for dinghies)
    	I assume they would, I elected to be self insured for the first
    $1000. I am also Self insured ($1,000 deductable) on the home and
    car.
    
    Now get back to your first question, Named peril verse all Peril,
    I was nevered asked about which perils I wanted to be covered for.
    I will go home and check it out.
    
    	Bob Parshley
    

    Re .14, if it works out Metpay DOES cover all-perils, can you supply
    a phone number? 

    Also, and this is VERY, VERY important, make absolutely sure you
    have "agreed value" on your hull.  In the case of Fat Tuesday having
    this feature allowed us to collect smoothly without any argument
    over market value or depreciated value.  As far as I know this feature
    should not cost much more.  It will, however, put some sanity to
    the amount you insure your hull for.  The 80,000 figure I saw earlier
    could not be agreed upon value for that size of boat and would in
    all likelihood not be the amount collected in a total loss.  If
    it is an agreed value, my advice is to sink that boat immediately
    because that is about 30k more than you could ever sell it for.
    
    My brother had Allstate for his boat.  Some clown hit his boat at
    its mooring and didn't leave a note.  Allstate paid the claim very
    quickly but cancelled him immediately.
    
    Dave

    I suggest that you check with BOAT/US for insurance. The last time
    I shopped around I found their pricing competitive. They are a very
    responsive company and have a very good loss prevention program.
    The policy I have is all risk, meaning unless the policy specifically
    excludes the situation, we're covered. The only exclusions are nuclear
    accident, acts of war and civil insurection. We had major damage
    to our boat after the hurricane in 1986 (?). BOAT/US insurance was
    excellent, no arguments over anything, not even when the repair costs
    exceeded the surveyors estimate. They paid the entire cost less the
    deductable and then about 3 months later followed up to see if all
    was well and asked how to improve their service!!  We are still with 
    them, mostly because of their service. I'd recommend them highly. 
                                           

    Re: .-1
    Ken, it's interesting to hear that BOAT/US is now competitive. I used
    to get quotes from them every year and they were always the very
    highest. According to them, their rate structure was influenced more
    by the mid/south Atlantic coast market, and they were aware that they
    weren't competing well in New England. Possibly this has all changed with
    the expansion of their store locations.
    
     John

Oh yes, as a boat gets older, insurance tends to become both more 
expensive and harder to obtain. After all, a ten year old mast is more 
likely to fall down than a brand new one, for example. A large 
deductible (2% or more) reduces the premium quite a bit.

Re insuring for more than market value: The logic used by insurance 
companies is not always what you might expect. Our boat is insured for 
significantly more than its current market value and for somewhat less 
than its replacement cost. I recently asked our broker about reducing
the hull coverage to reduce our premium. His response was, roughly, you
have a quality boat with an excellent recent survey. The insurance
company is comfortable with the insured value. If you reduce the
coverage, the company will wonder why and may conclude that, for some
reason, that the risk of insuring your ten year old boat is too great. 
I left the coverage as it is. If we lose the boat, I'd rather collect 
almost the replacement value than just the market value. 

    Just got off the phone with Metpay, the boat insurance is all peril
    with thw normal exceptions like war and nuked.
    
    Regarding the noter who suggested that I sink the boat because of
    the assumed value for a 37 footer being $50,000. I suggest that
    you review market values of Valiants, Hinkleys, and the like.
    

>    Regarding the noter who suggested that I sink the boat because of
>    the assumed value for a 37 footer being $50,000. I suggest that
>    you review market values of Valiants, Hinkleys, and the like.
    
    Yeah, Dave. Where were all your little smiley faces? I didn't believe
    you really meant this. Maybe for some of these space-age technology
    racin' boats that depreciate about as fast as they go to weather. ;^)
    
    J_R

    Didn't mean to raise such a fuss.  Was only joking!  However, lots
    of 37 footers do not have a market value even approaching 80k. 
    If anyone can recommend a boat that sails as fast as it depreciates
    I'd be amazed :^).  See, I can do those little faces too.
    
    Dave

    Thanks for all your input. we are getting boat documented and hinckleys
    does replacement value policy with $630 deductible Atlantic coast from
    Eastport to NY for $679 with 300k liability plus they give $50 off for
    the combined insurance and d,coumentation package. 
    
    I did call BOAT/US and felt like I was talking to a robot. I bet they
    are quite cheap but the insurance is cash value. if it sinks you get
    27k or whatever you paid. I'm not sure what it means if you lose the
    rig - and it's depreciated down to $200 - presumably you get $200.
    
    With Hinckley you get new rig up to 27K.

    I TAKE IT BACK. Last minute problems from Hinckley. They took the
    recommendation list from the survey and told us to fix everything on
    it before they'd isnure it in the water  (even fixing an anchor rode - 
    I mean it had to be fixed but without insurance in the water we
    couldn't  ,
    even bring it back from Kittery to Cape Ann). In the end we got a
    binder from ex Army officer's association (USAA) - $500 - not sure
    about coverage details yet.
    
    btw we called the boat Cap aux Isles after the name for Cape Ann given 
    by Samuel de Champlain. Look out for us if you sail around the "other
    cape".
    
    

    I do suggest that you talk to a MET rep.especially if you own a sailboat,
    even if it is older than ten years.I was told that they readjusted their
    age factor rate to a point that it makes little difference if the boat
    is brand new or 12 years old(10% more premium for the older boat) 
    They pay replacement cost for any demage,if you select that option,but
    they do pay only cash value for a total loss.By the way I did insure
    with them for hull value as shown in the BUC which is higher that what
    I paid for the boat,assuring that I'll get at least what I paid.
    
     

    For those with wooden boats.......
    
    I use Hagerty Marine.   I have found them to be great so far but
    have no claims yet so take it for what it's worth.   I have agreed
    value, unlimited cruising range, and a $2,000.00 deductible.

    They only do wood.

    Can you give us an address or contact for Haggerty?
    Don
    y
    

    I've been on vacation and must apologize for the delay in answering.
    Having said that, I can't answer!   I don't have the telephone number
    at hand but will get it tonight.   They advertise in Wooden Boat
    exclusively (to my knowledge at least).

    Here is the information on Hagerty........
    
    	Hagerty Marine Insurance
    	PO Box 87
    	7508 Peninsula Dr.
    	Traverse City, MI 49685
    
    	TEL: 616-941-7477

    Does anybody have experience with marine insurance through the
    Insurance Center of New England in W.Springfield? They claim to
    have been in business since 1866! I got a quotation from them
    with the insurance carrier being the Lloyd's of London, that is
    $ 450 less than my present insurance premium (American Yacht
    Insurance or something like that, $ 1,050 annual). I am a little
    torn here because I had very good experience dealing with my 
    present insurance over salvage and repairs of my boat sustained
    in Hurricane Bob. I guess one only finds out the quality of 
    his/her insurance customer service when some serious trouble
    occurs...

    I got a quote from them on my boat also. The big difference I found
    was in the amount they pay on a total loss. My present insurance is
    an agreed amount. The Insurance center is based on the BUC book. I.E.
    you get replacement based upon a used boat on the market.
    
    I opted to stay with my old company MOAC, although they did a poor
    job settling my claim.

    I have been on the horn calling numerous insurance companies for a
    quote for offshore cruising Boston-Caicos-Jamaica-Panama Canal-Hawaii-
    San Francisco, and I am almost ready to pull my hair out!
    
    By the way Sea Star is covered by METPAY now, but their coverage is
    only for US coastal water.
    
    According to the Insurance Center of NE (in Springfield) Lloyds too
    doesn't offshore - I find that hard to believe!
    
    Anyway, I'd appreciate any names/numbers for me check out.
    
        - Ashikin
    

    Try Hinckley Insurance in Maine.
    I know that they have carriers who provide coverage to offshore racers.
    
    800-367-3692
    207-244-7251
    
    207-244-5405 (Fax)
    
    Ask for John Hewlett.
    
    Also you might try John Alden in Boston. Sorry, don't have number
    handy.
    
    Doubt you'll like ANY of the quotes.
    
    JR

    Re: last couple
    
    John Alden's number is 617 241-8088. Ask for Cindy.
    
    Joe

    You might try Ocean Underwriters from FL. Their number is 800/327-0944.

    They do offshore coverage and the price isnt that bad, IMHO.

    I asked for a ballpark number for one year coverage on a 10 year old
    Tayana-37 in good condition to do the atlantic circle. This would cover
    USA - British isles - Canaries - Caribean and back. They said the cost
    would be in the $1400 - 1700 range, depending on particulars,
    experience (i said the skipper would have over 16k miles, mostly
    offshore, with experienced passage crew), and the deductable.

    This seems quite reasonable to me. Now all i need is the T-37, the
    $1700 and a cruising kitty to make the trip!

    Good luck
    paul

re .last:

Some years ago, when I was trying to get insurance for the passage to 
Bermuda, many brokers, including Ocean Underwriters as I recall, 
wouldn't even discuss insuring my Valiant 32. Too small, they said. When 
I reminded them (informed, more likely) that many 32' boats had successfully 
circumnavigated, they said "so what?", some not all that nicely. 

Eventually, I found a pleasant, helpful, cooperative broker, and he's 
had my business ever since.

Alan

    Yes, the cost of Off-Shore Insurance will be Expensive.
    The cost to insure a 50' Swan to cross the Atlantic was $2,000,
    One-way, One-time!
    
    Frank
    
    One may consider investing the insurance fee's into additional saftey
    gear for the boat.  Paying LLoyds of London a fee, will not save your 
    life once your off-shore.        

re .45

I agree, but if the bank owns (most of) your boat, you may not have a choice
about the need for insurance.

--RS