Conference unifix::sailing

    Rick, 
    
    I am on my second set of sails made by a loft in Mystic Ct.  They
    used to be known as VanZandt, but a little over a year ago (maybe
    2 - you know how time flies) they were taken re-affiliated with
    a major name - which escapes me.  They also had an affiliation with
    Horizon for a while.   Anyway the people and quality have not changed
    during this time.
    
    I have sailed my boats 1:1 with others of the model, and consistantly
    been faster than nearly all.  In the last three Tartan regattas,
    we have placed 2nd and 3rd in a 10-15 boat class (this summer we
    missed the gathering).    Our sails are not racing sails, they were
    designed for cruising (and the 125 genny for roller furling) and
    were the construction and weight recommended by VanZandt.   
    
    If you are interested in talking with them about your needs, call
    them at 203-536-4235.  The name has changed, but I dont believe
    the location or people  have (the number is the one under
    VanZandt in my personal phone book).

    Walt

    Re: .1 
    
    I should mention, the 2 sets of sails were for 2 different boats.
    The first set was for a Seidelmann 25 and made in 78. As far as
    I know they are still in use.   The current set has been in use
    on our Tartan 33 for 3 seasons.
    
    Walt

        I purchased two new sails for my Wavelength 24 this year from
    Shore Sails in portland ME. Up until then I have been a NORTH fan.
    The North inventory-Main(crosscut),150%(mylar,leech
    cut),140%(mylar,leech cut,95%(dacron,crosscut),3/4 once TRI-RAdial
    spinaker,3/4 once gennaker. North has recut my main twice, I have
    always had trouble trimming the "thing".  I decided to purchase
    a new main from Shore,after some discussion, we agreed on a "sort
    of" crosscut dacron main but with radial fingers(like a kevlar sail)
    at the clew,head,and tack. Steve Helms, came out(in the rain) climbed
    my mast and measured the curvature of the mast. At the same time
    I ordered the Main I ordered a 120% mylar VMG cut(like a spider
    cut genoa but made entirely of mylar. Both sails are PERFECT! the
    quality outstanding. I am now a SHORE fan, seems they are not toooo
    busy making 12METER sails to spend time making us "little guys"
    a good sail. I might also add that the cut of my main at the time
    was not a standard "dacron" design. At first they did not think
    it was poosible. After talking to me and looking at my boat they
    thought it might be the best way to go. My boat speed has increased
    from last year 1/2 a knot, and the sail is a pure JOY to trim.
    
       A Happy Shore Convert     Don
    

    Now that some people have given recommendations, how about someone
    giving me a hint as to whether I'm in the ballpark as far as price?
    
    Rick
    
    * I was reading the other day that the price of a 150% Genoa for
      a Maxi costs about the same as a brand new, fully rigged J24.
    

    I paid around $2k each (in 83) for a main and 125 Genoa for my 33.  
    I think this is average for a good 300 square foot cruising sail. 
    Things I didnt have done include: triple stitching and 3rd reef point.
    I did have a leech cover put on the genoa, and reinforcements added
    to the spreader contact areas of the main (swept spreaders are harder
    on the main).
    
    Nowadays, I think I would want a radial or vertical cut roller genoa 
    with UV sailcloth along the leech, and a main cut to fit the Hood 
    roller boom system. 

    Walt

You might also visit Doyle Sailmakers in Marblehead. They advertise high 
tech sails including roller reefing headsails.

I personally have had very little experience with roller furling 
headsails, and that experience has convinced me I do not want roller 
furling -- too much chance of the system refusing to work and, much 
worse, the sail is too full when reefed. There was an article (probably 
in Practical Sailor) that claimed that the wonderful looking roller 
reefed headsails in the advertisements are more the product of the 
artist's airbrush than the sailmaker's skill. However, we do have a 
cutter, so reduction of headsail area doesn't usually require a sail 
change. 

I would suggest a third reef in the main. Not much extra cost and there 
is the need every once in a while. Our sails are fairly heavy and after 
seven years not too bad. I suspect that heavier is more durable and lighter 
is faster. 

One sailor I know got estimates from Hood and Doyle and then went back 
and forth for a while. Finally was offered a whopping discount over list 
(this was during the winter, as I recall). Worth a try.

Quality isn't cheap. Our main, 70% jib, 100% jib, and 133% genoa were 
$3500 in 1980. Sadly the sailmaker who made them has gone on to a more 
lucrative profession.

Alan

re .6

Based on what I've heard, DON'T try Doyle. Recently a sailboat dealer 
(Winnipesaukee Sailing Center) told me they used to recommend Doyle but 
quality problems caused them to stop. They now recommend Haarstick and North.

What WSC said about Doyle is confirmed by my experience in the Day Sailer 
class. In that class I know people that bought Doyle's and later went back to 
Horizon.

I do agree good sails won't come cheap. 

- Bob

    
    I originally had a grooved headfoil and a good sail inventory of
    Norths (40, 80, 130,150), but since it was just my wife and I a
    lot of the time, the convenience and *safety* of not leaving the
    cockpit to take the sail down became more and more attractive. 
    The down side is that reefing to less than 100% loses any usefulness
    at all. The sail shape is that bad.
    
    My preference is for a mail with 2 reefs, the second fairly deep.
    The genoa should be pretty much as Walt described.  I'm keeping
    a storm jib from my old boat as well.  I would love to cutter rig
    the boat, but too many $$$ are going out the door as is.  Maybe
    someday....
                           
    Any thoughts on cloth or weight?
    
    Rick
    
    *  A Doyle main was prices at about $2000.  I have yet to check
       Hood or North yet.  
    

    I've decided on a fully battened main, with two reefs, the second
    at about the 2 1/2 mark.     
    
    For the genoa, I've decided on a 135%, since a 150% is a bit too much 
    sail for normal cruising in Narragansett Bay, South of Newport, and 
    Buzzards Bay.  The 135% is enough for light air, and could probably be 
    reefed down to about 100%-110% in stiffer stuff. 
           
    I still have to decide on material and loft.  
    
        I went through Thurston's loft in RI.  Spoke with Steve Thurston.
        A smaller loft, but a few people I talked to had good things
        to say about them.  Good prices, plus a 15% discount for ordering
        before December 1st.   He tried to talk me out of mylar, and
        out of the radial cut. They said the reefing ability is no better and
        the aerodynamics come out the same.   I wonder about this, but
        he provided references for me to check out on both mylar and
        dacron, radial and non-radial cuts.  Good to deal with , in
        any case.  
    
        I'm to go through Hood in a few days, basically to find out 
        about the Starcruiser genoa.  They lay a composite of dacron
        and mylar in spots, and vary the panels from about 6oz to 4.8
        oz in the middle.  Its supposed to do very well, and they are
        working up a package for me.
    
        Doyle keeps getting pushed on me, but I feel they are a bit
        pricey.  I wonder how much the dealers get kicked back from
        the loft.  Anyway, their quicksilver is an option, but I've
        never been real fond of Doyle.                                      
    
        Ulmer Kolius is supposed to have gone out of business.  Someone
        told me that JK is taking a beating by neglecting his business
        in pursuit of the cup.  In any case, the UK dealer in our area
        became Spectrum, and then locked their doors for good soon after.
        
    
    North is working up a package for me as well, but I'd be real interested
    in anyones experiences with the above lofts, particularly Thurston,
    Hood, and North.       
                                     
    Rick
    
    
    
    

    All my sail price sheets are at home so I can't give you specific
    comparisons but, in general, I find North, Doyle, and Hood prices
    to be almost identical. One may have a lower price for a particular
    jib but they'll make it up somewhere else. I found Shore to be the
    most expensive by far. 
    
    I have all Doyle ('Quicksilver', etc). I'd use them again. Quality
    and service are excellent. There is a common misconception that
    Hood sails are somehow tied back to Ted Hood. Not so. He sold this
    business off a number of years ago and most of the comments I've
    heard lately seem to indicate that Hood quality has dropped
    dramatically.
    
    When comparing prices of the Hood 'Starcruiser' to the competition,
    be careful to watch size differences. My prices show the 'Starcruiser'
    to be a 130% while the 'Quicksilver' is a 135%.
    
    Don't know anything about Thurston sails but they made my dodger.
    Very happy with it. Again, service was great. There's a lot to be
    said for dealing with a small, local loft.
    
    10% - 15% is a typical discount for sails purchased before the end
    of the year. I'm told that 20% off is what a boat dealer pays.
    
    

    I had my price sheets here after all. These prices are for a Sabre
    38 which has sail dimensions almost identical to what you have.
    
    I = 49.50    J = 15.75    P = 43.42     E = 13.75
    
    
    Mainsail
    
    Hood               299 sq ft     8.3 oz Dacron        $1687
    Doyle              299           8.0                  $1727
    North              299           7.0                  $1541
    Shore              299           9.25                 $2000+
    
    150% Genoa
    
    Hood               596 sq ft     6.0 oz               $2423
    Doyle              596           5.0                  $2051
    North Leech cut    585           6.0                  $2205
    North C-Cut        585           6.0                  $2424
    Shore Spider Lt Air585           3.5                  $2718
    
    #2 or "Cruising Genoa"
    
    Hood 'Starcruiser' 491 sq ft     7.2 oz               $2541
    Doyle 'Quicksilver'536           5.3                  $2287
    North RF Genoa     526           7.7                  $3054
    Shore 'Biradial'   526           7.7                  $2455 *
    (*Shore price doesn't include sunshield or foam leech)

    
    Figures lie and liars figure. There are lots of other miscellaneous
    options that can affect these prices. When asking a loft for a quote,
    make sure you get the full price/data sheet. It's the only way you can
    make a rational comparison. From these numbers it would be hard
    to say that Doyle is the most expensive.
    
    John

Rick, some questions since I haven't talked to any sailmakers in a long 
time. 

In .0 you indicated that your weren't planning any serious racing. Why
are you considering headsails with mylar in them? Are sailmakers
claiming that sails with mylar are now just as durable as all dacron
sails, or are you willing to sacrifice some longevity for performance?
What is the cost difference between a high tech genoa with mylar/varying
weight dacron and a conventional (old fashioned) single weight cloth all
dacron genoa? Why did you choose a fully battened main over a
conventional main? What are the claimed advantages? (I notice that a
number of the BOC racers have eschewed fully battened mains.) Er, how do
you plan to fly the storm jib? 

By the way, what boat are these sails for? 

Alan

    Slip of the fingers in .11. The comment about the Shore 135% price
    should refer to a foam LUFF pad. Don't know what we'd want a foam
    LEECH for.
    
    By the way, a full battened main from Doyle is approximately $500
    extra, and you supply the lazy jack system. Dealer quoted $600
    for lazy jacks with continuous reefing. Seems like I could do that
    myself for less. Doyle's 'StackPack' which is a complete package
    including integral cover, lazy jacks, etc will be in the $3500 range.
    Comparable system, if there is such a thing, from Shore was a couple
    of hundred dollars higher.

    Maybe it's just competetive in-fighting but the other sailmakers
    are all knocking the Doyle 'Stackpack'. They point out that the
    extra ease of having the sailcover integral to the main prevents
    the inclusion of performance options like a cunningham, flattening
    reef, or footshelf. Seems like a reasonable argument.

    RE John:   
    
    Thanks, the figures are a help.  A big help.  Interesting comment on
    Hood quality.  I *am* trying to compare apples to apples.  Its damn
    tough at times when someone quotes a 135 and another a 130.  I hadn't
    thought about the integral sail cover, I just didn't like the way
    it looked right off.  Kind of a lumpy sleeping bag laying on the
    boom.
    
    The hunt continues..   Thurston is in the running as far as I'm concerned.
    Small but professional outfit, good quality.
    
    RE Alan: 
    
    I'm not considering racing the boat seriously, but that does not mean I
    won't enter a club event or the marina regatta once a year.  To put it
    another way, I don't need that extra .001 knot that a racer does, but
    if its a difference between 6 years and 5 years use... well..
                                         
    Price lists I've seen has put the price of  mylar around the same as
    Dacron, or at least as inexpensive an option as a full-battened main.
    No sailmaker has said that mylar was as durable, but I'm trying to be
    open and explore alternatives.  Is 4 years possible with Mylar?  Does
    it roll up (Hoods Starcruiser is part mylar)?   My wife has the prices
    I've gathered so far, Ill post them when she comes home.   
    
    I chose a full-battened main because of the better shape it provides
    (several references here) in light air, the reduced flogging and wear
    on the roach, as well as the ease of bringing up and down (with or
    without jacks). I looked at two full-battened mains that were one and
    two seasons old. Neither showed any signs of wear on the leech, and
    were literally new.  Both were given high references by their owners.
    This was at Thurston.   All I've heard about them has been positive,
    I'd be interested to hear some criticisms.
               
    The boat is a new O'Day 40.  Its essentially the Sun Fizz of Jeanneau
    fame.  It got a nice writeup from PS in one of the summer issues. Ed
    Thomas and I had fun working up all the ratio's and figuring out how
    she stacked up. I plan on eventually cutter rigging the boat and I'll
    mount the storm sail on the inner forestay.  For now, I'm going to have
    to take the proposed 135 down and fly the storm jib on the single
    headstay. 
               
    Rick                                                             
    
    * Someday... someday.. a Bristol 41.1 aft cockpit.... (and someday
                                                           Ill win Megabucks)
                                                                     
               
    
               

Thanks for the information, Rick. Re wear on the leech: Our main is now
seven years old and is of conventional design. It has been
professionally washed every year. The only repairs have been patching
two small rips (from a charter) and there is no significant wear. We
have always been extremely careful never to let the sail flog,
especially in heavy weather. It may well be that other sailors aren't so
careful. A couple of years ago we watched a boat motor into a 20 knot
breeze for a quarter hour, main flogging horribly. I'd like to hear an 
after some use report on a fully battened main. Did John really say $500 
extra for full width battens? Seems a bit much for a little extra 
sewing.

    RE: .15
    I rounded off the batten price. Doyle was exactly $512 extra while
    Shore was $406.
    
    Sure does seem like a lot of money for a little sewing.

If I recall the Practical Sailor comments about fully battened mainsails 
correctly:

advantages:

	better sail shape in light air
	easier handling [1]
	less chafe [2]
	less flogging

disadvantages:

	possible sail damage in heavy winds
	problems with batten breakage [2]
	cost

[1] I assume this is with a good lazy jack system.

[2] Almost every article about sails mentions problems with mainsail 
batten pockets tearing. Some sailmaker claimed that he made more money 
repairing batten pockets than from all other repairs.

[3] If the battens are going to be flexible enough to provide good sail 
shape in light winds, then I would think that they would be quite prone 
to breaking if the sail should flog while reefing in a gale. I would 
also think that the jagged end of a broken batten could do a substantial 
amount of damage quickly. Due to their length, carrying a spare set of 
bettens would be a bother. 

Would any potential buyers or actual owners care to comment?

    I would be a potential buyer here...
    
    I'm intrigued by the fully battened main because I think it will
    virtually eliminate batten damage. Traditional(!?) leach battens
    always seem to break up the smooth curve of the main and "stick"
    into the junction of the sail and the forward end of the batten pocket.
    full length battens would eliminate this angle or break in the curve
    (my guess). I would guess that sail shape would be much better also
    because of the unbroken curve. Fiberglass battens seem to be flexible
    enough so that they would almost never break. (I did say almost!!:-))
    
    My major concern would be how the full battens would effect off-wind
    sailing. My guess, again, would be that they would be more likely
    to snag on a spreader. Keeping the boom vanged down would reduce
    this possibilty, but...
    
    Does a fully battened main have a large roach? If it did, couldn't
    this get a lot of wear from topping lift and or backstay? (Roach
    is that portion of the main outside (aft) a line fron the clew to
    the head.)
    
    Ed

    Full battens seem to have problems with B&R rigging (swept back
    spreaders) as on most Hunters these days.  B&R has problems anyway
    in off-wind performance, but its a trade-off I guess between that
    and tighter sheeting angles when beating to weather.  They're supposed
    to be fine with normal/traditional spreaders, at least as fine as
    your regular battens might be.  I had trouble with the roach of
    my 33' and the topping lift without full battens.
    
        The word I got is that the battens have to *exactly* fit the pocket
    or there is severe chafe and quick damage.  In looking at the battens
    on the fullbattened main at Thurston, they seemed to be no lighter
    than ordinary battens, so I'm interested in the light air behavior.
    I have never had a single batten break on me, and carried a set
    of spares for a few years.  Never been out in anything like a gale
    though...max 30 knots or so..
    
    Here are the prices for Doyle...   (off the O'Day 39 sheet)
    
    					Cloth
    Sail                      Sq Ft     Weight Material Cost
    -----------------------   -------   ------ ------- -----
    Main			314	8.30	Dacron  1792
    	Two Reefs					 312
    	Cunningham					  29
    	Flattener					  31
    	Cover						 205  (yikes..)
    	Footshelf					  77
                                                       ------
                                                        2446
    
    Heavy #1 Genoa		534	4.9	Mylar	2266
    All Purpose Bi-Radial       534	3.70	Mylar	2429
    Cruising #1 Genoa		534     5.0	Dacron  1881
    
    Quicksilver (135)		480	5.30	Dacron	2175
    #2 Genoa	(130)		463	7.70	Dacron	1909
    
    In the fine print,  if you look close...
    
    Sun Shield				264
    Full Batten Option			512
    Foam Luff (flattener)               150
    Sail Numbers			  6 (come on... six bucks!)
    Draft Stripes			 35
    
    If I went with Doyle, I'd probably be looking at the quicksilver,
    main as described.  Foam luff and sun shield are part of the
    quicksilver package..  Bottom Line: $5133.00, (a cheap foreign car..)
    actually a bit more since the 40 rig is a bit bigger.   
    
    If you look at Thurston, the figures are like this.. (The sail area
    can be somewhat different since these are for the 40)
    
    					Cloth
    Sail                      Sq Ft     Weight Material Cost
    -----------------------   -------   ------ ------- -----
    Main			314	8.30	Dacron  1556
    	sailcover					 156
        each reef					  90
    	cunningham					  24
    
    Genoa #1			603     5.50	Dacron	1941
    Genoa #1			603	3.60	Mylar	2211

    Genoa #2 (135) Bi-radial    543     6.5/6.7 Dacron  1806
    Genoa #2 (130)              523	7.25	Dacron  1789
    Genoa #2 (130) 		523	4.1/4.7 Mylar   2011
    
    	Sunshield					235 
        Draft stripes					 35
    	FullBatten Option 				400
    	
    If I was to go with Thurston and the same type of setup,
    substituting a Bi-Radial 135 for the quicksilver, it would
    look like this..
    
    	Main 		2216	(full batten, two reefs, cover and cunningham)
    	Bi-Radial 135	1806
    			----                  
                        4022
    		
    Without discounts, this is about an $1100 difference.   Enough to
    get a working jib, or 90% of a crusing spinaker.         
    
    One wonders if the sails are that much better, if at all?
    
    Rick
    
    * Fricchiones law:  The more you look at figures, the more they
                        lie.

Pardon my cynical skepticism .....

The technology to make long, strong, flexible battens has been available 
for many years. Hobies, etc, have been using fully battened mainsails 
for years. Why, I ask, are big boat sailmakers suddenly recommending 
fully battened mainsails? Have they just (very belatedly) discovered 
that such mainsails are better? Or are they simply trying to convince us 
that a more profitable product is better? 

Seriously, if a batten is flexible enough to provide good sail shape in
light winds (how light is light?), can that batten be stiff enough and
strong enough to keep a large mainsail from flogging while reefing in a
gale? I seriously wonder. And once the main starts flogging, how long
will the battens survive without breaking? 

Has any sailmaker gone sailing in a gale and used a video camera to 
record the behavior and performance of a fully battened mainsail both 
sailing and reefing? Of course, the sailmaker should be recording the 
efforts of a frighted husband yelling at his terrified wife as he 
struggles to reef the sail. The reefing should not be done by five 
former Whitbread crewmen. 

    The Chineese have been sailing for at least as long as Alan. They
    seem to favor the fully battened sail as well as more or less unstayed
    masts.  I suspect they have had some storm sailing experience and
    have not abandoned the concept.
    
    Gary Hoyt has been pushing these concepts for years, but sailors
    tend to be a stuborn lot (imagine the clatter around winches).

    I personally like the battened main idea - especially for the
    shorthanded cruiser - and I dont agree that the battens will suffer
    or inflict the same kind of damage we see with the short ones we
    use on our roaches today.  I have watched a couple Doyle mains being
    raised/reefed/stowed on new Irwin 43s out of our marina. These owners
    have little experience in general, yet the sail seems very pacific
    compared with others in the area.  When luffing, the motion is slow
    and gentle as opposed to the whipping effect seen in similar partially
    battened sails.
    
    I also have a friend with a freedom 25 who is on his 5th season
    using a fully battened main.  Now he isnt a world cruiser, but his
    sail looks like the day he bought it, with no special care (other
    than a couple factory ECOs to the luff groove/tape).
    
    Walt

     I've noticed the battens on my Hobie are starting to rip the tack
    of my main. But it is an old sail, the battens are very stiff (in
    my opinion) and the mast on a Hobie pivots, which seems to cause
    the (stiff) battens to put a lot of pressure on (tack end) of the
    batten pockets.

    re: .20
    
    In my thesaurus 'frightened' and 'terrified' are not synonyms. 
    Surely you are not implying that degree of excitability exhibited
    in a reefing situation is gender dependent.
                           

re .21:

I'm not not arguing that fully battened mainsails per se are good or 
bad. It does seem to me that there are arguments for and against. I have 
a deep suspicion of advertising claims, and I would, really, like 
something other than sailmakers' claims on which to base an opinion,
especially since we will have to begin thinking about a new mainsail in a 
year or two. Observations like Walt's provide useful information. 

Bang, creak. Now I'm on my soapbox again. The North advertisement in the
December SAIL or Cruising World touts fully battened mains as just the
thing for reducing flogging while powering into a 20 knot breeze. No
competent sailor would power into any wind with his mainsail flogging.
He/she would either lower the sail or simply beat to weather. With care
and practice, it is perfectly possible to keep a mainsail from flogging
destructively in almost all conditions. To me, the justification for a
fully battened mainsail must be on grounds other than preventing damage
from flogging. 

Off hand, I can think of two reasons for tradition. First, and foremost,
things are done in a traditional way because they work. When a new way
of doing something is proposed, the new way must be proved to work
better in general, not just in specific ways. Yes, Walt, the Chinese use
fully battened sails and free standing rigs. But these boats do not have
any, so far as I know, history of successful transocean passages or
circumnavigations, especially with one or two crew. The reason for the
fully battened sails on junks may be to make handling the large sail(s)
easy with a small crew. Has any boat with an unstayed modern rig (eg, a
Freedom) circumnavigated yet or rounded Cape Horn? The unstayed rig can
make using storm sails extremely difficult or impossible. Oh yes,
tradition. The other reason for tradition is that the technology for
doing things better didn't exist once upon a time. I am quite happy
using dacron sails and have no intention of using cotton sails or manila
lines. When mylar/kevlar/etc sails become as (in)expensive as dacron and
last just as long, I'll buy them. Why doesn't anybody else write
diatribes? Time to get down. 

re .23: Ok, the next video will show a frightened wife yelling at a 
terrified husband as she struggles to control a flogging mainsail. I 
don't think of myself as sexist, but sometimes it is hard to write 
quickly and clearly and not at least sound sexist. Somewhere in this 
notes file I have, I think, mentioned sailing in gale conditions in the 
1984 Corinthian 200 race. Did I mention that my crew was three women, 
all competent and all of whom I would be happy to sail with again in 
similar conditions? Now I will really get down from my soapbox.

Alan

    re. transocean sailing in junks
    
    If my history learnin' serves me right Junks prowled all over the
    Western Pacific and Indian Ocean for centuries. These were principally
    trading vessels and presumably had small crews. 
    
    More recently, one of the participants in several of the trans-atlantic
    singlehanded races used a junk rig. I think his name is Hasler,
    Blondie Hasler?  
                 
    re. powering to weather
    
    Alan, you obviously haven't been spending a lot of time in Boston
    Harbor. One of the things that struck me about the "sailors" there was
    the amount of time they seem to spend under power. To that class of
    sailor, a  reduction in flogging while going to weather would be a very
    attractive feature. Maybe we should chalk it up to good advertising.
    
    My justification would be based on better sail shape and ease of
    handling. Reduced maintenance might fit in there too if we could
    here from some more multi-hullers. Can you guys take a hint!!!!
     
    
   Yet another question..
    I'm guessing again that a fully battened main would be still be
    easier to handle without installing lazyjacks. Comments por favor?
    
    As far as tradition goes, and Rick's gonna laugh at me, I'd feel
    better if I had hanked-on headsails with reef points. But I'll probably
    get roller reefing. :-(
    
    Ed

    OK, I am going to toss another shovel full of of coal on my fire.
    
    Based on BOC program material and my wifes photos at the BOC start,
    these are the yachts carrying fully battened mains around the world:
    
    Thursdays Child
    Credit Agricole
    Airco Distributor
    Ecureuil d'Aquitaine
    ACI Crusader
    Pour Medecines Sans Frontieres
    
    I might be interesting to follow the equipment reports that will
    no doubt follow the BOC, regarding chafe and durability of fully
    battened mains.
    
    Cruising world also noted that one of the features of many hi tech
    boats would be fully battened mains because of their eased handling,
    but they did not make a prediction regarding durability. This was
    in the BOC Program published in Cruising World prior to the start
    of the BOC.
    
    In the last BOC, Lady Pepperill carried 2 unstayed masts. Although
    Lush was pitchpoled and eventually sunk in the Southern Ocean, the
    masts were still standing when she succumed to a loose keel.

    Walt

    Tradition???
    
    The main reason for the persistence of short battens is racing rules.
    Battens are limited in most racing rules, and have been since early
    in the century, when a few people (L Francis Herreshoff??) specified
    fully battened sails and beat the pants off the competition. Note
    that some very reputable people now recommend either full or much
    longer battens than previously. I believe the CCA book of
    recommendations for offshore crusing, to appear shortly and with
    contributions from some really experienced folks, recommends much
    longer battens than usual (about 50% of chord).
    
    I grant there may be some reason other than competitiveness for
    the racing rules. Does anyone have more detail??
    
    Ross Faneuf

       i have 5 years on my hobie sails (dacron) and they still look
    super. i even had a window put in them last year. As for battens,
    well, they sure can take some abuse. i have destroyed two sidestays
    racing in insane weather conditions, and i have yet to break a
    mailsail batten. I have broken a jib batten, but then the sail was
    wrapped twice around the forestay after a picture perfect pitchpole
    (say that 3 times fast) in 30 knot winds. 
    
       On a hobie, the we have full length battens. We adjust the actual
    tension on them for weather conditions. by just tightening them
    a bit, we get a nice flat sail for moderate weather conditions.
    by pushing on them (we loop a line through the endcap glued on them),
    we can invoke as much curve as we need. in the jib this is especially
    helpful since they are so small, they do not overlap the main, so
    it is much harder to "turn" the air when going to weather.
    
       As for weight, the trick on a hobie is to buy one bottom batten
    and move them all up one position. by using a heavier batten for
    a given slot, we can use a sureform to plane the thickness to produce
    a given draft for the desired sail shape. 
    
       After a severe squall this year in Vt, i came back to my boat
    to find all by jib battens had disappeared. Because the closest
    dealer was 100 + miles away, i sailed the second day without battens
    in the jib. the boat's pointing was off about an extra 5 degrees
    (hobies without daggerboards aren't exactly the greatest to begin with)
    but i was not losing too much power. the flapping noise (sounded
    like a huey gunship) spooked a couple of captains and took their
    attention off of business which may have helped me. needless to
    say, i immediately replaced them.
    
      as to breakage, well these babies are standard fibreglas. We make
    sure the size is correct when new. we then sureform the ends off
    and then wrap them in duct tape. There is a product on the market
    that looks like little dacron pillowcases. you slide your batten
    into them, seal them up, and then put this into your batten pocket.
    the idea is to keep the fibreglas from working as a hacksaw on your
    sails, and to contain the pieces should you grenade a batten.
    
    As to Ed's note about motoring upwind, well lets say this observation
    of powered monohullers has been made before, but do remember us
    multihullers love going upwind as this is the easiest way to control
    flying a hull. In over your head and about to flip? NO PROBLEM!
    , just point her up till she stalls enough to come down (and get
    on it again!!!!).
                                                       
       I don't know about big boats, but on hobies you can buy trick
    battens. they are made of two layers of plastic sandwiching a layer
    of foam. They are suppose to hold the sail shape, while making tacks
    lightening fast. They are also suppose to be just about indestructable.
    they are not class legal for racing, so i haven't tried them.
    
    john
    

     John, did i understand you correctly, you plane your battens???
    
     Just out of curiosity, how much do those "trick battens" cost???
    Is it worth it to have set for when you just want to "play"???

    i don't plane mine, as i have still to get all the potential out
    of the rest of my boat. the trick foam ones can be ordered from
    ssi in chicago (815-455-4599). i forget the price, i'll look it
    up for you. the longest battens cannot be sent ups since they are so
    long, so they cut them in half. they give you a device that allows
    you to slip each piece in, and they glue it together. they say it
    doesn't affect the curve. these things can also be used to put
    a broken batten back together.
       
    john

    I share your suspicion of fads Alan.  Most sailboat advertisements
    are just so much tripe.  I agree about the flogging/powering issue.
    Its just not a deciding factor in and of itself.  On the other hand,
    its one more thing to throw in.
    
        The Chinese had lazy jacks before Doyle did too...  I'm sure if
    we looked hard enough, we would find an integral sail cover on some
    junk in Hong Kong harbor.   Its been around a while.  I think Ross
    was right about battens being restricted by racing rules.  You can
    get away with a lot on a BOC racer thats not allowed elseware. 
    
    Ed's question is also one of mine.   I'd like to know if you *have*
    to use lazy jacks with a fullbatten main.  
    
    Additionally, I'd like to know if anyone has any experiences with 
    bi-radial cut genoas.                                
    
    Rick
    
    *  Although I haven't met the man, I nevertheless believe Al Berens was
       sailing before the Chinese.  At least prior to Yuan Dynasty.

       I also believe he has rather large forearms, squinty eyes, and
       walks around saying "ahhh-gagagagagagaga" alot.  Loves spinich.
    
       He is what he is, and he ain't what he aint... :-) 
    
    
    

I like spinach in quiche and I only say "ahhh-gagagagagagaga" when
falling overboard!

I may be wrong, but don't Hobies have eight battens in their mainsails?
And fully battened big boat mainsails only four? Making a few assumptions
about sail size, etc, it appears that the load on the battens in a big
boat mainsail will be on the order of 64 times the load on Hobie
battens. Thus the big boat battens need to be some 4 times thicker than
Hobie battens. This implies either a very thick batten that is going to
be rather inflexible or a relatively thinner (weaker) batten that is
much more likely to break than a Hobie batten. And a thin batten is
necessary if the sail is to have the right shape in light air. The more
I think about this, the more questions I think of. 

Alan

     Yes, a Hobie does have 8 Battens but I think a Freedom has more than
    4 Battens though. Not really sure but last time i saw a Freedom
    i thought the Main looked a lot like a Hobies' Main.

    
    BOY, WHAT INTERESTING READING.  ALL THIS FROM A QUESTION REGARDING
    SAILMAKERS!  I HAVE ENJOYED THE RESPONSES.  IN REGARDS TO SAILMAKERS,
    CHOSE WITH CARE!  ONE OF THE MAIN ATTRIBUTES YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR
    IS A SAILMAKER THAT CAN AND WILL DO REPAIRS AND ADJUSTMENTS WITH
    A MINIMUM OF HASSLES (TIME AND MONEY WISE).  IF YOU ARE NOT PLANN-
    ING TO DO EXTENSIVE RACING THEN FOLKS LIKE THURSTON, ANSSON, PRYDE,
    ETC ARE GOOD BETS.  THE DOYLES, HOODS, NORTHS, ETC. ARE JUST TOO
    BUSY TAKING CARE OF THEIR FLEET AND RACING ACCOUNTS.  BY THE WAY,
    VAN ZANT IS NOW OWNED BY HORIZON, HOOD JUST GOT SOLD AGAIN, AND
    DOYLE JUST BOUGHT A LARGE WATERFRONT PROPERTY IN NEWBURYPORT.
    
    

    ONE OTHER NOTE.  THE FULL BATTEN MAINS GET A 6 SECOND PER MILE PENALTY
    IN PHRF-NE RATINGS.  THIS LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT THE "EXPERTS"
    SEE SOME PERFORMANCE BENEFIT IN USING THE FULL BATTENS.  I'M
    NOT CONVINCED OF THE COST/BENEFIT WITH REGARDS TO CRUISING.
    
     JOE

A reputable sailmaker should correct any design or construction problems 
at no cost. Our main was slightly reshaped twice to reduce weather helm. 
No charge either time. And the second time the sail was two years old.

    Re Doyle property in Newburyport:
    
    I saw the plans when I visited Doyle this weekend.   They have a new
    facility planned, but I think they will stay on the third floor in
    Marblehead as well. No one can tell me they are "struggling" and
    hungry.  They are about as pricey and as big-time as I ever want to see
    a sailmaker.
    
    On the other hand, I saw some real quality work being done.  They
    were quite helpful (of course, I hadn't given them any money yet..)
    and friendly.  Everyone I've talked to has spoken highly of them.
    
    And of course.. Walter Cronkite, William Simon, and Street had their
    sails made there.. :-)
    
    Rick
    
    *  I know I'm going to get some grief for this, but I believe there
       is a big difference between a Pryde sail and a smaller shop like
       a Thurston.  

    Of course there's a difference between Pryde and Thurston.  I've
    met Steve Thurston and he's entirely Occidental.

    Could you provide me with the address or phone number of Thurston's
    loft in RI.?

    I DON'T HAVE THE ADDRESS WITH ME, BUT THURSTON IS IN WARREN, R.I.
    . . .
    I BELIEVE IT'S ON WATER STREET.
    
    THE PHONE NUMBER IS 401-245-5145.
    
    

    RE: .38
      Rick, I keep my boat in the yard that Doyle bought (used to be
    Yankee Marine) and you are sure correct about $$'s.  Our yard bill
    increased 45%.  (Of course this is the trend with everyone, however
    it's getting rediculous.)  I've been pricing headsails (I race and
    need a new light genoa) and I found the most expensive sailmakers
    to be Doyle and Ulmer-Kollius.  There is one individual at Doyle
    who is considered to be of questionable character (who I won't name
    here) who has gotten himself in hot water with the defunct Shore
    Sail start up in Marblehead last year.  He worked on one of my sails
    and I have regretted it ever sinse.  I also have heard that Hood
    is moving to Rhode Island.  Can anyone confirm this?

    Directions to Thurston:
    
    o   I-95 to Providence.
    o   Then I-195 east towards Cape Cod.
    o   Then Rt-114 south to Barrington (Exit 7, I think).
    o   Continue thru Barrington on Rt-114.
    o   As you enter Warren, (crossing a bridge) you will see an
        American Tourister factory on right (large old mill bldg).
    o   Take right at traffic light just past AT factory.
        This is Water St. Thurston is on left about 3/4 mile.

    ABSOLUTELY!  I GUESS MARBLEHEAD JUST GOT TO BE TOO MUCH OF A
    HEADACHE.  AT ANY RATE, I UNDERSTAND TED HOOD AND TILLITSON PEARSON
    HAVE PURCHASED OR LEASED AN ISLAND IN THE LOWER BAY AND WILL BE
    PUTTING IN THE LOFT, A BOATYARD CAPABLE OF BUILDING 12'S, A 300
    SLIP MARINA AND MOTELS, RESTAURANTS AND RELATED FACILITIES TO FURTHER
    EMPTY OUR POCKETS.  "SOUNDINGS" HAD A BIG ARTICLE ON IT A MONTH
    OR TWO AGO.
    
    

    YOU MIGHT WANT TO KNOW THAT TED HOOD SOLD THE SAILMAKING DIVISION
    A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO TO A FRENCH MULTICOMGLOMERATE (I FORGOT THE
    SPELLING).  THEY JUST SOLD OUT TO THE MANAGER OF THE MIDWEST HOOD
    LOFT.  I'LL HAVE TO GET THE DETAILS TONIGHT AT HOME.  I THINK THAT
    TED IS STILL INVOLVED IN THE SPARS BUSINESS, HOWEVER.

    Correct. Ted Hood is moving to RI.
    
    But, as .45 indicates, he has had no connection with Hood Sailmakers
    for some time. His companies include: Little Harbor Custom Yachts,
    Little Harbor Yacht Sales, Hood Yacht Systems Division (spars &
    furling), etc.
    
    Hood Sailmakers may lease space and open up a loft at Ted Hood's
    complex in RI but that's the extent of the connection. As mentioned
    in a previous note, there is a direct corelation to the quality of
    Hood sails and the SALE of Hood Sailmakers.

    Decision.
    ---------
    
    I'm going with Rowse Sails out of East Greenwich, RI.  Tom Rowse
    comes highly recommended, showed me good quality work and was 
    reasonably priced (compared to others).
    
    Inventory
    ---------
    
    	135% bi-radial genoa  (535 sq/ft)   
	Mainsail (305 sq/ft)
        Spinaker (1427 sq/ft)
    
       * I may add a storm or working jib at a later date.
    
    Comments
    --------
    
     1. Genoa
        
    	This is a really nice sail.  Its made out of 6.7 oz dacron with
        lighter weights in areas of less load.  It uses mylar in the
        head, clew and tack to add strength without weight.  We went
        over the panel layout on the CAD system and were able to simulate
    	performance of the sail, as well as headstay sag and necessary
        backstay tension to compensate, in a range from 8 knots to 20
        knots of wind.   Telltales, and window are included, along with
    	leech lines, and enclosing all the stiching on clew in UV cloth.
    
     2. Full Batten Main
    
        Tom Rowse builds this pretty much the way Doyle builds theirs. Its an 8
        oz dacron, which can be built lighter because of the full batten
        construction.   Rather than the elasticised pockets which jam the
        batten in and hold it under pressure, there is a drawstring arrangement
        which does not have the effect of forcing the batten against the mast.
        The chafe problem is dealt with by building the pocket around the
        batten to ensure a good fit, and then using layers of dacron on the
        inside.  He *does* recommend taping the battens as described in some
        other reply.   
    
        One difference between Doyle and Rowse is the headboards on the
        main.  Doyle does not build a headboard on a full batten main,
        preferring to have the top of the sail hoist like a genoa.  Steve
        Cruse explained to me that a halyard hooked to a headboard
        causes an unbalanced raise wich pulls *out*, then up.  This damages
        the slides as well as the sail.   Tom Rowse told me that all
        you really need is for the sheeve at the top of the mast to be
        positioned properly with respect to the sail.  Something he checks
        out before building the headboard.  Sounded reasonable.
    
     3. Spinaker
    
        I opted to not go with a cruising spinaker and stay with a traditional
        1.2oz tri-radial.  My previous boat had a Sobstad 1.75oz tri-radial
        which was a beauty.  The only problem was in being all three foredeck
        people at the same time.  To make the handling easier than before, I
        will invest in a spinaker sally and sleeve.  Hoisting should be easier
        as it cannot hourglass on me, and is guaranteed to fill from the bottom
        up.  On my old boat, I had to play games with rotten twine or rubber
        bands, and pre-pack the fool thing. 
    
        This of course means that I have to get a pole, mast track, spinaker
        sheets, etc.  In the interest of my wallet, I will be getting
        the spinaker a little later in the summer, although part of the
        same package deal.
    
    Dealers/Cost/Etc
                    
    
                       Doyle    Hood   Rowse  Thurston    (MAX)   (MIN)   
Mainsail              --------  ------  ------ -------  -------   ----
           Main        1791.00 1750.00 1594.00 1556.00      D
           Fullbatten   400.00  400.00  318.80  400.00      DHT    R
           Flattener     32.00    0.00    0.00    0.00      D                
           Cunningham    30.00    0.00    0.00   30.00      DT                
           2 Reefs      331.00  294.00  166.00   90.00      D      T
           Footshelf     80.00    0.00    0.00    0.00      D                
           Cover        192.00  184.00  219.00  156.00      R      T
              Total    2856.00 2628.00 2297.80 2232.00      D      T
                                                                            
Genoa      135% Radial 2377.00 2515.00 2212.00 1806.00      H      T
                                                                            
           Subtotal    5233.00 5143.00 4509.00 4038.00      D      T
           Discount       0.15    0.15    0.20    0.15                      
              Total    4448.05 4371.55 3607.20 3432.30      D      T
                                                
    Cost
    ----
    As you can see, Doyle was the most expensive, followed by Hood, then
    Rowse, then Thurston.  In no way did I think that the quality was
    $600 better in Doyles main than Thurston's.  Thurstons radial cut
    genoa was not as nice as the rest, but I did not feel the quicksilver
    was as nice as the Hood Starcruiser (mylar/dacron laminate), even
    though all three were in about a $300 range. Rowse offered the best
    discount, 20%.  Doyle didn't offer any at all, you had to negotiate
    with the yacht broker for it, and they of course want a piece of the
    pie.
        
    Service
    -------

    North *never* called me back or gave me an estimate after 3 attempts. I
    took this as an indication of the service I might get.  This was
    disappointing since I had North sails and loved them.  Rowse is 1 mile
    from my marina, and that I thought the work Tom Rowse did on his genoas
    and full battened mains was a smidgen better in the stiching and finish
    work.  He was also very helpful and was willing to come sailing
    several times to assist in trim, learning curve, etc.
                                                                
    Epilogue  (Kind of like an old Quinn Martin production)
    --------
    The conclusion I drew after all this is that a local smaller sailmaker
    probably gives a sailor like myself a lot more for the money.  When
    I walked into Doyle, they were working on $15,000 sails for Maxi's
    and doing a sail for Walter Cronkite.  To their credit, Steve Cruse
    would have gone on test sails with me and all that, but after I
    sailed away to Rhode Island, I think service would have been a problem.
    They might fly to Australia to fix the cunningham on William Simons
    120 footer, but a schmuck like me might be low on their priority
    list.
    
    All in all, the hunt was well worth the results.  I learned one
    hell of a lot about sailmaking, and a lot about the power of
    advertising vs reality.   I think I'm getting a pretty good set
    of sails for my dollar also.
        
    Thanks for all the help.  Can't wait until Spring.
    
    Rick
    
    

    I bought a Doyle 110 (actually a 105 when they got done yankee cutting it)
    last winter. I asked for a heavy sail as it wasn't coming out til 15+
    knts. It was made at the Marblehead loft (neat place just to see how
    they make them).
    
    Well they built me one heck of sail. It was a monster the first 2/3rd
    of the season, as it was so stiff, we had trouble getting it back into
    the sail bag after each use. Now it is broken in a bit and is much easier
    to use.
    
    The sail is very fast and shows no signs of strain. The fact we bent
    one of the shackles silly without a mark on the sail attests to this.
    I will probably have it recut next year as 2 years is the max to go
    between re-cuts if racing.
    
    I am very pleased with the sail. And where I race, the majority of
    guys are using Doyle too. About $900 with hanks. 1st class setup: 
    stitching, Leather on the grommets, and yes even multicolored labels 
    sewn in showing the head, tack and clew for the terminally stupid.
    
    There seems to be  a lot of carping about Doyle in this thread, but it
    is a very old note. I'm pleased with their workmanship. As they say,
    you get what you pay for.

    Maybe John gets what he pays for.  I don't necessarily feel I got what
    I paid for, n=much less what Doyle in marblehead/Salem are billing me
    for.
    
    Doyle built me a killer dacron/mylar genoa during the last off-season. 
    I also bought a Furlex furler from them.  And in keeping with my
    custom, had them wash, check-over and store the mainsail they made for
    me two years ago.  They got the billing on the Furlex wrong, charged me
    for a repair to the main which they should have made two weeks after I
    installed the sail in 1993 (broken sail slide) and did not install the
    spreader patches nor numbers on my genoa, but for which I've paid.
    
    Nobody from the loft has stepped foot on my boat to show me how to use
    the new loose-footed main, nor to check to see if the new genoa/roller
    furler combo is set up and working properly.  Not that I haven't
    requested them to go out.  They'd go out but they're too busy.
    
    I love the main sail.  it's all I could ever ask from a dacron main.  I
    really love the genoa.  The boat points and goes as well now as when I
    used to race evenings, when the boat had a few hundred pounds less of
    food, galley supplies, wine and other assorted cruising gear.  It's
    just the service, or lack of service, which frustrates me.  
    
    I've worked this situation with Scott, but he's too busy to get
    resolution.  I've spoken with and written to Robbie Doyle at the end of
    July and the billing situation is still not fixed.  I was dissatisfied
    with the post production service on my mainsail, but went back to Doyle
    two years later for the quicksilver genoa figuring I'd give them
    another chance to satisfy me.  They didn't.  They haven't.
    
    Of course, each transaction is a new and unique experience, and your
    mileage will likely vary.
    
    djc
    

We bought a set of cruising sails (simple cross-cut dacron main, yankee,
and staysail) through the North Marblehead loft three years ago. The
salesman came to our house to measure for the sails (our boat winters in
our front yard) and the sails were then designed and built at a North
loft in Connecticut. To our delight, the sails were just fine out of the
bags. No changes needed in spite of these being (apparently) the first
Valiant 32 sails North had made with their current designs. We never
bothered to ask the sailmaker to go sailing, though he offered to. The
sails were also finished by the date promised. 

We did have a small billing problem with getting our sails washed last 
winter. Oddly enough, North Marblehead sent the sails to North 
Cheasapeake for washing, and the Cheasapeake loft was responsible for 
the billing issue. 

I'm quite happy with the sails and would use North again.

Alan

    Gee Dave, sounds like you're not a happy camper. Too bad most the 
    inwater boat shows are done. I had a problem with my last catamaran
    that the factory tried to ignore. Reminded me of Fleece , Cheap'm &
    Dodge'm of 3 Stooges fame. So I left a voice mail that I was coming to the
    in-water boat show and was going to cause a scene on day 1 people
    would be talking about next year. Had my fix 1 day later. Maybe
    a hint of leaving a less than complimentary recommendation on the ASA
    sailing notes on the Internet will wake them up.
    
    They can't be busy now, and who knows, maybe they will throw in one of
    those fancy Doyle baseball caps  ;>)