Conference unifix::sailing

    Is there something wrong with the fuel ?   Why not offer it to someone
    nearby with an OB ?
    
    Walt

>    Is there something wrong with the fuel ?   Why not offer it to someone
>    nearby with an OB ?
    
     The fuel is probably mildy contaminated with water, (it spent the 
     winter in the cockpit lockers). As noted in 313.0 the TEMPO tanks
     will cycle air through them since they can't be really sealed and
     given a winter there probably was some condensation although I 
     couldn't see any water when I drew some out of the tank. It had 
     Gas Stabilizer added at the end of the season. 

     The reason I don't need the fuel is that the  present two steel 
     tanks are already full. I am looking to get rid of both the fuel and 
     the tanks. I am willing to give away the tanks. I just figured it 
     would be easier to store the tanks sans fuel until I could find 
     somebody who wanted them. I don't know anybody with an outboard who
     I could palm off the fuel on.

     /jim

Why not just dump the old outboard fuel in the gas tank of your not_too_
new_and_it_has_a_carburator_and_not_fuel_injection automobile? A little 
oil in the gas won't hurt.

    DANGER!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NON-DANGEROUS BUILD UP OF
    GASOLINE FUMES. PLEASE USE EXTREME CAUTION WITH GAS. GOOD SAILORS
    ARE HARD TO COME BY.

    Disposing could be, in this case, burning it.  but maybe not a good
    idea.  Burning it in my diesel that is..........
    
    The fuel in question is a topped up 10gal tank that was topped up in
    1991.  It had a triple dose of biocide/cetane additive and "looks" ok. 
    but fuel is cheap and diesels aren't
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    

I drain my diesel tank every spring and put the year-old diesel in my 
house heating oil tank. No problems yet, and it warms the house just 
fine.

Alan

I'd go with Alan's suggestion. If you don't have oil heat, offer it to someone
who does.

    Good idea.  In the midwest however, this is NO oil heat.  Why would
    anyone want this when natural gas is sooooooooo cheap.  but my mother
    has oil heat in western Massachusetts.  Perhaps I could take it that
    way on the next trip back east.
    
    I guess you are saying that it would be very unwise to let the Yanmar
    burn it, tho.
    
    Intuitively that feels like the right decision, just thought I'de
    check.
    

I must confess I do not know where to do this, but you can have the fuel
analyzed.  My cousin does this with the motor oil in his vehicles (ranging from
cars and diesel trucks to some heavier peices).  My impression is that the 
analysis gives you insight as to how good your gaskets are  and  whether the oil
is breaking down too quickly etc.

I assume that the cost is around $25-$50.  Drawing one quart of fuel may be alot
cheaper and easier than draining the tank.  I would guess that the cost is 
about a wash (no pun intended).

Doug 
dtn 244-7042

re .9

Oil testing is for crankcase oil, not diesel fuel in the tank. They analyze to see whether
there are combustion products and/or coolant in the crankcase oil, to figure out whether
your engine is functioning properly.

re previous

If I had a disposal problem like yours, I'd cross my fingers and pour it in the tank,
hopefully as dilute as possible. If you don't want to take the risk, give it to a Mercedes
owner and let 'em pour it in their car.

There are three risks:

1) Water in fuel. The fuel treatment and sealed storage makes this unlikely.

2) Particles and organisms in the fuel. Your fuel filter will remove these. If there are
   too many, the filter will clog and your motor will stall, but no major harm will be done.

3) Bad chemical changes have happened to the fuel. In this case the bad stuff will be 
   injected into your motor. If there's way too much of the messy stuff, the engine will run
   rough or not at all. It's unlikely that any damage will occur. To recover, you'd need to
   flush the tank, fill with clean fuel and bleed the system.

Just my 2 cents worth.

--RS

P.S. My tank is already full :-)

    A very good friend who also happens to be reliability engineer at
    Detroit Diesel had this to say:
    
    Smell it....if it smells like diesel fuel, then try and start the
    engine.  If it starts and idles ok, then run it up to full power.  If
    you cannot tell the difference, then neither can your diesel.  
    
    My water separater/filter is rated at 40gal/hr (what a joke) and the
    filter is 2micron.  I guess I might try his test.  It's not the price
    of 10gal of diesel fuel, its what to do with stuff if I don't use it. 
    Can't say I would like to transport two 5gal jerry jugs anywhere
    distant.
    

how about giving it to someone who has a diesel vehicle, like  a large

truck, they could add a gallon or so each time they fuel and burn it.

JIm

    nice idea, but can you see it.... Hi buddy, you want this diesel fuel
    for your (mumble)truck?  Its been in my boat for three years and I'm
    not to keen on burning it in my diesel engine.
    
    But I might be able to take it out and store it.  Then use it to top
    off the tank every now and then til its gone.  So you had a good
    suggestion there.  Thanks!
    
    

You got it, if you feel uncomfortable about the fuel, mix a ratio

of say 10% old to 90% new.  This way the majority of the fuel is

new.

JIm

    I had a similar problem, fuel I was not sure about. I got another
    filter, same as the Racor in my boat, hooked up a hand pump, and pumped
    the fuel through the filter. I had to replace the cartridge twice, but
    the end result was good fuel.
    
    Think of the extra filter as a spare part.
    
                             Bill

    There are other things that happen to fuel other than dirt and algae
    contamination. i don't know enough about it to talk as an expert, but
    diesel fuel's cetane rating diminishes over time.  Less so for fuel that 
    was sold before the new low-sulphur fuels, but like gasoline, diesel 
    fuel gets stale.   For the new stuff (since about Oct '93) the people
    at Mack Boring, the Yanmar distributor, guess the fuel may be good for 6 
    months.     
    
    People at Mack Boring claim that diesel fuel becomes more like home heating
    oil and less like diesel fuel as it becomes old.  I don't understand the 
    distinction, but I'll willingly feed my oil burner fuel which I wouldn't 
    let near the Yanmar, regardless of how many filters it had been through. 
    
    djc
    

    Well, my engineer friend had some second thoughts and reversed himself,
    bring to me a 24 page technical report done by Detroit Diesel R&D.  It
    was wonderful reading and gave me two clues that said "change the
    fuel".
    
    In the first was the description of how additives work and last to
    preserve fuel cetane rating, and the second was what happens when those
    additives give out over time.  When the cetane rating falls the the
    fuel burning rate slows down, and the combustion occurs late which
    gives to main effects (aside from reduced power).  The first is noise,
    a "banging" sound rather than the typical diesel rumble off idle, the
    second is greyish smoke as you increase throttle settings.  My Yanmar
    had both of these when lighting it off the first time.  So I made up my
    mine to drain and change.  My friend said "If you don't want the fuel,
    we can use it in our parts washer."  Great! that problem is solved
    also.
    
    So I opened up the tank and looked in.  Hmmm, allful dark down in
    there.  Got a trouble light and looked in.  Pitch black and relection
    from surface of fuel only.  Ok, transferred out about 1/2 the tank
    (5gal) and looked again.  Still solid black, including the sides of the
    exposed aluminum tank.  (not good)
    
    Drained the rest and stuck a rag in swiped the side of the tank.  About 
    1/8in of black grunge (there is no better word) is coating the sides. 
    The fuel is the color of motor oil (new motor oil, but still dark). 
    Without a doubt, the tank must come out.  I'll start tonight; replace
    the 2 micron Dahl element filter, the fuel line itself, the 10 micron 
    element on the Yanmar.  Then remove the tank, add about 3lbs of steel 
    shot and 1/2 gal of acetone.  Stir and shake violently.  Drain and repeat 
    until shiny clean.  Then use a magnet to remove the steel shot. Reinstall 
    the tank.  Add new fuel, a double dose of biocide to get whatever the 
    surgery missed, bleed the fuel system and done!
    
    
     
    
    

    I have a related question to disposing of old diesel fuel.  As our boat
    has been on the hard for the past two years I have asked our mechanic
    to drain the tanks of the old fuel and replace with fresh fuel.  He has
    indicated that there is some build up of light sludge on the tank
    bottoms.  He has suggested that the tank be filled with alcohol for the
    remainder of the time that we will be away (about 12 months). This
    should breakdown the sludge and clean the tanks when it is eventually
    drained.
    
    The questions that I have are what effect might this have on the hoses,
    and could there be a fire risk with the fumes that alcohol might
    release?  I am uncomfortable with the idea, but thought that some
    feedback might help me understand the trade-offs.
    
    Cheers,
    
    	Howard

    my job is done....i was on the hard for three years during which the
    additive gave up and alge growth took off.
    
    first i remved all fuel filters and tossed them.  next drained all  the
    fel lines and cut one open at an accessible (well not too accessible)
    spot.  be careful, i was not and now have 31 stitches in left palm for
    my lapse in judgement.
    
    biopsy of line showed no infection, so just removed tank (aluminum) and
    drained.  filled with one can of engine degreaser and a about 1lb of
    steel shot.  shake up real good.  knocks off all trace of growth from
    tank.  take to car wash and blast with power washer then rinse.
    
    siphon water out, insert vacuum hose and suck out air (while feeding in
    warm with hair dryer)  1/2 hour of this and its completely dry. 
    
    reinstall tank, attach lines, add new fuel, pump through all new
    filters, bleed low side, static bleed high pressure side.  start
    engine.
    
    bleed while running at pump outlet.  bleed while running (again at
    about 50% rpm) at injector.  did this at injector about four times over
    1/2 hour.
    
    now done, starts instantly, purrs like content cat.
    
    to do again, i would completely drain tank before extended storage. 
    spray in pure biocide and leave it.
    
    instead of alcohol, how about a heavy dose of biocide (triple dose) and
    plan on attacking this problem later.  the new fuel you just put in is
    probably just fresh feed for those hungry bugs which live in water and
    eat diesel.
    

    forgot one thing....steel shot so removal with magnet is possible
    

Your strategy might depend on 

  1. how easily removeable your fuel tank is (we'd need to cut out the 
     entire cockpit floor to remove ours), 

  2. how large your tank is (shaking our 45 gallon tank would be a bit 
     of a chore), and

  3. how well-baffled your tank is (a well-baffled tank might be very 
     hard to thoroughly clean short of cutting one or more largish access 
     holes which would need to have plates welded over them later).

Best strategy seems to be: avoid slime! he said with a grin.

Re: .19

You said that you bled your pump/injector(s?) while running. Is this
significantly more effective than static bleeding? Is this possible on a
single-cylinder engine? Is air in the injection lines not just a "yes it runs/no
it doesn't" and a small amount will let the engine run but roughly?

I have seen the single-cylinder Yanmar in my new boat static bled and test run,
but this is my first experience with a diesel in my own boat, and I therefore
have a much closer interest in such matters than previously!

- Brian 

    my engine is a single cylinder yanmar.  Static bleeding works but takes
    a longish time to do.  a couple of years ago, it took literally weeks
    of doing it every few days to get all the air out and get that "purring
    cat" effect.
    
    After all, you don't move much fuel or air at, what - 3rpm?, with the
    crank or a few strokes with the starter (fuel all the way on -
    compression release engaged.)  And that latter is hard on the engine
    when you go to start it.
    
    So after it warmed up, I put it in gear (boat all tied up) and advance
    the throttle to full speed.  Now I know the most ammount of fuel is
    being pumped through the engine.  So when you crack the nut at the
    injector, what happens?  Less fuel for the engine as it's being pumped
    out, hopefully with any air, onto the block.  Less fuel = engines slows
    down.  As the rpms drop down to about 1000, tighten nut.  rpms spin up
    again.  wait a few minutes and repeat.   about 1/2 hour of this was all
    that was needed to completely finish the job.
    
    seemed logical, could not figure why it would not work.
    
    Also, found that my fuel tank was installed during construction and
    need certain access holes "enlarged" to get it out.  Its baffled too,
    but the steel shot could and did get around that as best I can see.
    
    It is only 9 gal though, and shaking a 45 gal just might be a real
    chore... :>) (45 gal at 6.5#/gal = 297.5# - whoa, real ballast there).
    

Thanks for the comments. Sounds as if it's worth a try. Might be a little more
difficult for me as I am (will be) on a swinging mooring, and could end up
motoring round in ever-decreasing circles! Perhaps just a fast idle speed would
be sufficient.

Re: 3RPM

I have had a try at turning my Yanmar 1GM10 round by hand with the crank handle
supplied. I have lost a certain amount of skin from the back of my hand, and am
still trying to get the blood stains off the cabin sole :-). I have yet to get
it over compression, even with the motor spinning as fast as possible with the
decompressor open. One of the things that attracted me about the Yanmar was the
hand-start option, but now I see why many manufacturers do not bother fitting
it! However, I have only a single battery, and I would be interested to hear if
anyone has any useful tricks for actually getting one of these things started by
hand! My old radio club had a 6HP diesel generator which we started by hand
regularly, but the crank was much easier to get behind. It might also help to
have a second person handle the decompressor lever to allow two hands on the
crank. I suppose that with a low battery the handle could help out, to stretch
the battery life. I know that a second battery would be desirable, but the boat
is only 16' overall to start with, and I have rather limited locker space!

- Brian

    Yes, I did it once.  Try this.  Throttle set to 50%.  Use very slow
    cranking to find the compression point.  Remember this and which stroke
    you are on (compression or exhaust).  Starting on the compression
    stroke, engage compression release with left hand and start swinging 
    the handle  counting 1-2, 1-2, 1-2.  On the third "1" drop the release 
    and get out of the way as you say "2"!
    
    Bang! (loudly - extra fuel you know).  That got a few more strokes and
    then she wound right up just fine.  If it is cold out, set a hair dryer
    in front of the filter intake (assuming you have A/C available),
    probably not at your mooring.  

I used to have a car with a starting handle, built back in the days when
batteries were not trusted and all cars had dynamos, not high-output
alternators. I occasionally started that (1600cc, 4-cylinder) by hand, with the
usual precautions against kicking back and the resulting broken thumb. I'm sure
that the biggest problem with the little Yanmar is just the lack of space to
swing the handle properly. 

However, I did spend a couple of minutes playing with it over the weekend with
my son operating the decomp. lever, and I did at least prove that I could get it
over at least one compression stroke. As long as it is a good starter, that
should be enough to start it warming itself and hence start next swing. Or maybe
the one after that :-). 

The main reason I wonder about this hand starting business is that when you
crank a diesel over with the starter, it seems to start firing and coughing and
banging for a number of strokes before it actually "catches" and runs up by
itself. I am looking forward to experimenting!

I realised, by the way, that the answer to running the engine in gear while on a
mooring is to run in reverse. Funny how long the obvious answers take to arrive,
sometimes!

- Brian

    I thought you meant reverse (going in ever smaller circles) . My boat
    has a fairly strong "back to port" result in reverse.  Useful when
    stuck in the mud in Erie's wind tides.  Stop moving forward?, stick in
    reverse and full throttle.  Stern swings to port.  after 180 degrees
    rotation, put in forward and drive off.
    

on BIG diesels that have that feature it is used exactly as you are using it
on your small one.  It does save wear/tear on the starting system, gets some
lube into the cylinders and 'spins' it up before you 'pop' it.

Nice to see some manufacturers are thinking!!

Tom