Conference trucks::football;1

    OK, since I've got the time and the info in front of me, I'll enter the
    full draw for the 1991-92 European Cups.
    
    Champions' Cup: (Matches to be played 18 September and 2 October)
    
    Anderlecht (Bel)		Grasshoppers (Swi)
    Arsenal (Eng)		Austria Vienna (Aus)
    Barcelona (Spa)		Hansa Rostock (Ger)
    Besiktas (Tur)		PSV Eindhoven (Hol)
    Brondby IF (Den)		Zaglebie Lubin (Pol)
    Dynamo Kiev (USSR)		HJK Helsinki (Fin)
    Fram Reykavijk (Ice)	Panathinikos (Gre)
    IFK Gotenberg (Swe)		Flamurtari Vlora (Alb)
    Hamrun Spartans (Mal)	Benfica (Por)
    Honved (Hun)		Dundalk (Ire)
    FC Kaiserslautern (Ger) 	Etar Tarnovo (Bul)
    * Red Star Belgrade (Yug)	Portadown (N.I.)
    Sampdoria Genoa (Ita)	Rosenborg Trondheim (Nor)
    Sparta Prague (Cze)		Glasgow Rangers (Sco)
    Union Luxumbourg (Lux)	Olympique Marseille (Fra)
    Universitatea Craiova (Rom) Apollon Limassol (Cyp)
    
    * Cup Holders

    Cup Winners' Cup:
    
    Preliminary Round:
    
    @ Odense (Den)		Galway Utd (Ire)
    Stockerau (Aus)		@ Tottenham Hotspur (Eng)
    
    First Round:
    
    Athinaikos (Gre)		* Manchester Utd (Eng)
    Bacau (Rom)			Werder Bremen (Ger)
    CSKA Moscow (USSR)		AS Roma (Ita)
    Fyllingen IF (Nor)		Athletico Madrid (Spa)
    Galastasaray (Tur)		Eisenhuettenstadt (Ger)
    Glenavon (N.I.)		Ilves Tampere (Fin)
    Katowice (Pol)		Motherwell (Sco)
    Leveski Sofia (Bul)		Ferencavaros (Hun)
    Norrkoeping (Swe)		Jeunesse Esch (Lux)
    Odense (Den)		Banik Ostrava (Cze)
    Omonia Nicosia (Cyp)	Club Bruges (Bel)
    Partizan Tirania (Alb)	Feyernoord (Hol)
    Sion (Swi)			Valur Reykiavijk (Ice)
    Tottenham Hotspur (Eng) 	Hajduk Split (Yug)
    Swansea City (Wal) 		AS Monaco (Fra)
    FC Valetta (Mal)		FC Porto (Por)
    
    @ - won preliminary round
    * - cup holder
    
    Matches played 18 Sept, 2 Oct    

    UEFA Cup Draw: Games played 18 Sept, 2 Oct
    
    Aberdeen (Sco)		BK 1903 Copenhagen (Den)
    Ajax Amsterdam (Hol)	Oerebro (Swe)
    Auxerre (Fra)		Ikast (Den)
    Bangor (N.I.)		Olomouc (Cze)
    Boavista (Por)		* Inter Milan (Ita)
    Glasgow Celtic (Sco)	Germinal Ekeren (Bel)
    Cork City (Ire)		Bayen Munich (Ger)
    Dynamo Moscow (USSR)	Vaci Izzo MTE (Hun)
    Eintracht Frankfurt (Ger)	Spora Luxumbourg (Lux)
    Famagusta (Cyp)		Steau Bucharest (Rom)
    Ghent (Bel)			Lausanne (Swi)
    Groningen (Hol)		Erfurt (Ger)
    Hallescher (Ger)		Torpedo Moscow (USSR)
    Hamburger SV (Ger)		Gornik Zabrze (Pol)
    Hask-Gradjanski (Yug)	Trabzonspor (Tur)
    Inter Brataslava (Cze)	Real Madrid (Spa)
    Liverpool (Eng)		Kuusysi Lahti (Fin)
    Olympique Lyon (Fra)	Oesters Vaexjoe (Swe)
    Real Ovideo (Spa)		Genoa (Ita)
    FC Reykjavik (Ice)    	Torino (Ita)
    Salgueiros (Por)		Cannes (Fra)
    PAOK Saloniki (Gre)		FC Mechelen (Bel)
    Slavia Sofia (Bul)		Atletico Osasuna (Spa)
    ZSKA Sofia (Bul)		Parma (Ita)
    Spartak Moscow (USSR)	MP Mikkeli (Fin)
    Sporting Gijon (Spa)	Partizan Belgrade (Yug)
    Sporting Lisbon (Por)	Dynamo Bucharest (Rom)
    Strum Graz (Aus)		Utrecht (Hol)
    VfB Stuttgart (Ger)		Pecs (Hun)
    FC Tirol (Aus)		Tromsoe IF (Nor)
    Vlaznia Shkodra (Alb)	AEK Athens (Gre)
    Xamax Nuchatl (Swi)		Floriana Valletta (Mal)
    
    * Cup Holders
    

    Zabrze (!) 
    
    Crap anyway.
    
    Hamburgs goal by Eckel in his first match ever for Hamburg. Came
    in with 20 mins to go and scored in the 80th min.
    
    Let's hope Hansa Rostock will play the same result in Nou Camp :)
    
    Heiko
     

    Rumour has it that a latest score is 
    
    Cork 1 Bayern Boring 0
    
    Could be true!!
    
    Nigel

    
    
    	Honved  0    Dundalk  1
    
    	Second half at the moment.
    
    
    

    
    
    Honved 1   Dundalk 1
    
    
    

    From VNS...
    
    European Cup, 1st round, 1st leg

    Besiktas Istanbul ........ 1  PSV Eindhoven ............... 1
    U S Luxembourg ........... 1  Olympic de Marseille ........ 5
    Brondby IF ............... 3  Zaglebie Lubin .............. 0
    Honved Budapest .......... 1  Dundalk FC .................. 1
    Sparta Prague ............ 1  Glasgow Rangers ............. 0
    FC Barcelona ............. 3  Hansa Rostock ............... 0
    Universitatea Craiova .... 2  Apolion Limassol ............ 0
    IFK Gothenburg ........... 0  Flamurtrai Vlora ............ 0
    Sampdoria Genoa .......... 5  Trondheim ................... 0
    Hamrun Spartans .......... 0  Benfica Lisbon .............. 6
    Arsenal FC ............... 6  Austria Vienna .............. 1
    HJK Helsinki ............. 0  Dynamo Kiev ................. 1
    Fram Reykavik ............ 2  Panathinaikos ............... 2
    Anderlecht ............... 1  Grasshoppers Zurich ......... 1

                             
    European Cup Winners Cup, 1st round, 1st leg

    St Eisenhuttenstadt ...... 1  Galatasaray ................. 2
    Omonia Nicosia ........... 0  FC Bruges ................... 2
    IFK Norkopping ........... 4  Jeunesse Esch ............... 0
    GKS Katowice ............. 2  Motherwell FC ............... 0
    Odense ................... 0  Banik Ostrava ............... 2
    Vitochea FC .............. 2  Ferencvaros ................. 3
    PAE Athinaikos ........... 0  Manchester United ........... 0
    SC Bacau ................. 0  Werder Bremen ............... 6
    Fyllingen Bergen ......... 0  Atletico Madrid ............. 1
    Partizan Tirana .......... 0  Feyenoord Rotterdam ......... 0
    CSKA Moscow .............. 1  A S Rome .................... 2


    UEFA Cup, 1st round, 1st leg
                                                              
    Cork City ................ 1  Bayern Munich ............... 1
    Vassi .................... 1  Dynamo Moscow ............... 0
    Aberdeen FC .............. 0  B 1903 Copenhagen ........... 1
    Slovan Bratislava ........ 1  Real Madrid ................. 2
    Eintracht Frankfurt ...... 6  Spora Luxembourg ............ 1
    Sturm Graz ............... 0  FC Utrecht .................. 1
    VfB Stuttgart ............ 4  Pecsi Munkas ................ 1
    Glasgow Celtic ........... 2  Ekeren ...................... 0
    Olympic Lyonnais ......... 1  Oester Vaxjo ................ 0
    Sport Club Halle ......... 2  Torpedo Moscow .............. 1
    Bangor ................... 0  Sigma Olomuc ................ 3
    Liverpool FC ............. 6  Lathi ....................... 1
    Ajax Amsterdam ........... 3  Oerebro SK .................. 0
    Mikell MP ................ 0  Spartak Moscow .............. 2
    FC Tyrol ................. 2  Tromso ...................... 1
    PAOK Salonika ............ 1  FC Malines................... 1
    Sporting Gijon ........... 2  Partizan Belgrade ........... 0
    Sporting Club Lisbon ..... 1  Dynamo Bucharest ............ 0
    FC Groningen ............. 0  Rot Weiss Erfurt ............ 1
    Vllaznia Skhorda ......... 0  AEK Athens .................. 1
    Boavista ................. 2  Inter Milan ................. 1
    Neichatel Xamax .......... 2  Floriana FC  ................ 0


    

    Can anyone tell me what VNS is?
    
    Mick

    ANy comments from the Rangers' fans (objective please) on the match
    against Sparta Prague. At least four penalties should have been
    awarded to the Czechs for blatantly obvious fouls and one of the
    Rangers' players should not only have been sent off but immediately
    arrested for a Gascoigne-type "Put the boot through the rib cage". The
    Czechs must have thought the Russians were invading again!
    
    Peter

    			Real Oviedo 1-0 Genoa

    Re .20, Why would anybody objectively reply to something as subjective
    as that?
    
    	Steve

    And why not? 
    
    Peter

    Looks like the reasons are overwhelming!

    [Taken from VNS]
    
    European Cup Winners Cup, 1st round, 1st leg

    FC La Valette ......... 0  FC Porto ............ 3

    UEFA Cup, 1st round, 1st leg

    CSJA Sofia ............ 0  Parme AC ............ 0
    Real Oviedo ........... 1  Genoa ............... 0
    FC Reykjavik .......... 0  Torino .............. 2
    SC Salgueiros ......... 1  AS Cannes ........... 0
    
    This completes a clean sweep by the Portguese teams. Benfica
    (6:0) and Porto (3:0) are expected to advance. Sporting,
    Boavista and Salgueiros, all winners by a single goal, will
    have to play better on the road then they did at home to have
    a chance at advancement.
    
    JC

    re .20> Got to agree with the other noter's comments on why anyone
    should bother to reply to such an unobjective note, there's bias from
    all supporters in favour of their own teams (or downright hatred of
    certain other teams) but the least we can expect is a report
    resembling what actually happened at the game, other noters rely on
    these topics for accurate information on matches, since I have seen a
    video copy of the whole 90mins I can safely say that your report is not
    at all accurate to the circumstances, the score was deserved as was the
    claims for ONE penalty, there was also an instance whereby a cynical
    foul on a Rangers player resulted in him being stretchered off for
    treatment.
    
    I am a supporter of Rangers, but I at least try to be unbiased (no
    coments needed JJ -)) except of course against the mighty Tims -) -)
     -).
    
                                           
                                                        Brian.

    Well, high horses are the order of the day, aren't they? Isn't all this
    a wee bit of pots calling kettles, Brian? 
    
    Naturally, I didn't see the whole 90 mins, but a film clip  is hardly
    liable to be inaccurate in showing whether a foul is a foul or not if
    it shows the entire incident, which was the case (x at least four). You
    didn't really need to be an expert to see that Sparta should have had
    more than one penalty. The trips were quite plain to see.
    
    Now fair enough, the injury to the Rangers player wasn't shown, but the
    foul by the Rangers player was - and it was disgraceful.
    
    Of course, I was looking to sollicit a little humourous reaction - and
    got what I half expected - huffy righteousness. No doubt the goal wasn't
    Goram's fault either?                           
    
    Peter
    
    

    Alright Peter, I still don't agree with your assessment that Sparta
    should have had at least 4 penalties, the whole discussion does seem a
    bit petty though, so maybe we can agree to disagree.........by the way
    the only thing resembling a high horse I have been associated with was
    watching that TALL Donkey Wright playing for Souness's mob -) -).
    
    Incidentally, the guy who scored Sparta's goal later admitted that it
    was a fluke, according to him he tried to cross to an attacker at the
    back post.............any arguments to be sent to midfielder Nemec, c/o
    Sparta Prague F.C.
    
    If it's any consolation I'm over the moon about the result, I'm well
    used to severe hammerings in the early round away games -) -).
    
    
    
                                                           Brian.      

    Well, Brian, being as objective as I possibly can, I must say that they
    all looked like pretty blatant fouls, which is partly why I was so
    outrageous, shall we say, in the original entry. 
    
    Yes, the goal did look pretty speculative.
    
    Obviously, now Rangers tremble on the brink of going through the first
    round. You must be all holding the smelling salts tight!
    
             
    Peter

    Rangers should be good enough to beat the Czechs at home Peter, but they
    are fast going forward and could pose a threat, apart from anything it
    would not be the same without some sort of difficulty arising -) -).
    
    Rangers have been beaten in the last 2 European cup tournaments by
    teams with far more quality and efficiency, i.e. Red Star (winners) and
    Bayern Munich (semi-finalists), I would not consider Sparta to be
    capable of doing anything remotely as clever as them, based on what
    they achieved at home..........but one thing's for sure, they will
    break fast from defence to attack, as often typifies the "continental"
    game..........as far as trembling is concerned, I think all Scottish
    teams will feel the same, after all, they do have the uncanny knack of
    snatching defeat from the jaws of victory -) -).
    
    Of the other Scottish teams involved, I'm sure Celtic will qualify for
    the next round (Are they Scottish or Irish ? -) -)), Aberdeen are well
    capable of still qualifying if they raise their game to the way they can
    play, Motherwell have the hardest task, but they are at home and will
    need to rely on the experience of Russell and Cooper, both of whom must
    be at the top of their form if they hope to progress to the next round.
    
    The English teams all look comfortable, with the exception of Spurs who
    may have a difficult home tie still to negotiate against Hadjuk, a lot
    might depend on Lineker's goalscoring touch.
    
    
                                                            Brian.

    
    Re 7.20
    
    see note 47.21 (the Rangers topic)
    
    

    One of the more illustrious ties in Europe takes place tonight in
    Munich......
    
    
    
    Bayern vs Cork City !!
    
    The good news is that they've reduced the entrance fees. It's 5DM to
    stand (less than 2 quid !!) and 10DM to sit (just over 3 quid), not bad
    for one of Europes better stadiums. Although they'd have to do
    something like that to get the crowds to leave the beerfest......
    
    There's at least 6 of us from this notes conference going !!
    
    	- Robin.....

    Wish I was going with you.... I'll never forget the fall of 1981
    when I was in Munich and having so much fun in the beer tents that 
    it never even occurred to me to see if there was a game going on. 
    Come to think of it, I'm surprised I knew where I was....
    
    Prediction:
    
    Bayern 4/5:0 Cork City
    
    JC
    

    		REAL MADRID 1-1 Slovan Bratislava (2-1)
    
    

    Gunter,
    
    The Torpedo Moscow - Hallescher FC aggregate score should read 4:2
    in favour of Torpedo, they won 3:0 last night after being beaten
    2:1 in Germany in the 1st leg.
    
    U.E.F.A. Cup 2nd leg.... Ekeren (Belgium) - Celtic (Scotland )1:1 (1:3) 
    
    
                                                       Brian. 

    Sorry Gunter.........not like me being wrong -) -)
    
    
                                                   Brian.

    
    Latest score
    
    Banik Ostrava  2     Odense  1
    
    

    
    
    Dundalk   0     Honved   1
    
    	after 25 mins.
    
    

    
    
    Dundalk  0     Honved   2
    
    

    
    
    Spurs  1   Whatever   0
    Tuttle
    
    

    
    
    
    Spurs   2   Hadjuk  Split  0
     Tuttle
     Durie
    
    

    
    
    FK Copenhagen  1      Aberdeen  0
    
    

    
    
    
    Rangers    1     Prague  0
    
    

    
    Aberdeen out.......beaten 2-0
    Motherwell out.....won 3-1 on the night, lost on away goals rule.
    Rangers out........won 2-1 aet, but lost on away goals.
    
    Another great night for Scottish clubs in Europe.
    
    Come on the Tic.
    

                      <<< Note 7.0 by RTODWT::DCASSIDY >>>
                           -< European Competitions >-

    
When will the second round be played?

T_

    European Cup, 1st round, 2nd leg                       Qualifier

    Marseille .......   5   US Luxembourg ... 0             Marseille
    Portadown .......   0   Red Star Belgrade 4             Red Star Belgrade
    Etar Tarnovo ....   1   Kaiserlautern ... 1             Kaiserlautern 
    PSV Eindhoven ...   2   Besiktas Istanbul 1             PSV Eindhoven
    Zaglebie Lubin ..   2   Brondby ......... 1             Brondby
    Dundalk .........   0   Honved Budapest . 2             Honved Budapest
    Glasgow Rangers .   2   Sparta Prague ... 1             Sparta Prague
    Hansa Rostock ...   1   Barcelona ....... 0             Barcelona
    Appollon Limassol   3   Craiova ......... 0             Appollon Limassol
    Flamurtai Vlora     1   IFK Gothenburg .. 1             IFK Gothenburg
    Trondheim .......   1   Sampdoria ....... 2             Sampdoria 
    Austria Vienna ..   1   Arsenal ......... 0             Arsenal
    Dynamo Kiev .....   3   HJK Helsinki .... 0             Dynamo Kiev 
    Panathinaikos ...   0   Fram Reykjavik .. 0             Panathinaikos
    Grasshoppers Zurich 0   Anderlecht ...... 3             Anderlecht 

    European Cup Winners Cup, 1st round, 2nd leg           Qualifier
                                                                    
    AS Monaco ........ 8   Swansea City .... 0              AS Monaco
    Werder Bremen .... 5   SC Bacau ........ 0 		    Werder Bremen
    Tottenham Hotspur  2   Hajduk Split .... 0              Tottenham Hotspur
    IIves Tampere .... 2   Glenavon ........ 1              IIves Tampere 
    Galatasaray ...... 3   Eisenhuettenstadt 0              Galatasaray
    FC Bruges ........ 2   Omonia Nicosia .. 0              FC Bruges
    Jeunesse Esch .... 1   IFK Norkopping .. 2              IFK Norkopping 
    Motherwell ....... 3   GKS Katowice .... 1              GKS Katowice
    Banik Ostrava .... 2   Odense .......... 1              Banik Ostrava 
    Ferencvaros ...... 4   Vitocha ......... 1              Ferencvaros
    Manchester United  2   PAE Athinaikos .. 0              Manchester United
    Atletico Madrid .. 7   Bergen .......... 2              Atletico Madrid
    Feyenoord ........ 1   Partizan Tirana . 0              Feyenoord 
    AS Roma .......... 0   CSKA Moscow ..... 1              AS Roma
 


    UEFA Cup, 1st round, 2nd leg                           Qualifier         
  
    Ekeren ........... 1   Celtic ...........  1           Celtic 
    Torpedo Moscow ... 3   Sport Club Halle .  0           Torpedo Moscow
    Real Madrid	...... 1   Slovan Bratislava   1           Real Madrid
    Steaua Bucharest . 2   Famagouste .......  2           Steaua Bucharest
    Florian FC ....... 0   Neuchatel Xamax ..  0           Neuchatel Xamax
    Bayern Munich .... 2   Cork City ........  0           Cork City
    Spora Luxembourg . 0   Eintracht Frankfurt 5           Eintracht Frankfurt
    AJ Auxerre ....... 5   Ikast ............. 1           AJ Auxerre
    Gornik Zabzre .... 0   SV Hamburg ........ 3           SV Hamburg
    Trabzonspor ...... 1   Dinamo Zagreb ..... 1           Trabzonspor 
    Lausanne Sport ... 0   La Gantoise ....... 1           La Gantoise
    Osasuna Pampelune  4   Slavia Sofia ...... 0           Osasuna Pampelune 
    B1903  Copenhagen  2   Aberdeen .......... 0           B1903  Copenhagen
    FC Utrecht ....... 3   Sturm Graz ........ 1           FC Utrecht
    Pecsi Munkas ..... 2   VfB Stuttgart ..... 2           VfB Stuttgart
    Sigma Olomouc .... 3   Bangor ............ 0           Sigma Olomuc
    Lahti ............ 1   Liverpool ......... 0           Liverpool 
    Oerebro SK ....... 0   Ajax Amsterdam .... 1           Ajax Amsterdam
    Tromso ........... 1   FC Tirol .......... 1           FC Tirol 
    FC Mechelen ...... 0   Salonika........... 1           Salonika
    Rot Weiss Erfurt . 1   Groningen ......... 0           Rot Weiss Erfurt
    Dinamo Bucharest . 2   Sporting Lisbon.... 0           Dinamo Bucharest
    Inter Milan ...... 0   Boavista .......... 0           Boavista
    Parme ............ 1   CSKA Sofia  ....... 1           CSKA Sofia 
    Torino ........... 6   FC Reykjavik ...... 1           Torino
 

    
    
    Qualifier = Cork city ??
    
    Do you jest ?
    
    Adam.

    re -1, 'twas a case of having the wrong name in the select buffer
    and trying to do to many things at the same time. 
    
    I'll just concentrate on my work instead.

    
     English clubs in Europe...
    
       FC Porto v Spurs
    
       Benfica v Arsenal
    
       Athletico Madrid v Man Utd
    
       Auxerre v Liverpool
    
    Some difficult games here for all clubs...
    
    Dave...

    
    
    Anyone know who Celtic get?
    

    
    Re -1,
    
    Neuchatal Xamax of Switzerland
    
    Gary.

    
    
    Anyone know the draws for Germany ?
    
    (Esp. Hamburg and Frankfurt)
    
    Heiko_
    

    From VNS 7-OCT-1991 
    ::: FOOTBALL
    News - Draw for the 2nd round of the European competitions:
    
    European Cup: Panathinaikos v IFK Gothenburg; Marseille v Spart Prague;
     PSV Eindhoven v RSC Anderlecht; Honved v Sampdoria; Dynamo Kiev v Brondby;
     Barcelona v Kaiserlautern; Benfic v Arsenal; Red Star Belgrade v Apollon
     Limassol
    
    European Cup-Winners Cup: FC Porto v Tottenham Hotspur; Atletico Madrid v
     Manchester United; Katowice v Bruges; Roma v Ilves; Sion v Feyenoord;
     Ferencvaros v Werder Bremen; Norrkoping v AS Monaco; Galatasaray v Banik
     Ostrava
    
    UEFA Cup: 1903 Copenhagen v Bayern Munich; Dynamo Moscow v AS Cannes;
     Utrecht v Real Madrid; Ghent v Eintracht Frankfurt; Neuchatel Xamax v
     Celtic; Osasuna v VfB Stuttgart; Torino v Boavista; Lyon v Trabzonspor;
     Salonika v FC Tirol; Auxerre v Liverpool; Sigma Olomuc v Torpedo Moscow;
     Gijon v Steua Bucharest; Genoa v Dinamo Bucharest; AEK Athens v Spartak
     Moscow; Hamburg v Sofia; Rot-Weiss Erfurt v Ajax
    
    Ties to be played on weeks beginning 21 October and 4 November
                                                                         

    I just received my issue of World Soccer, and with it was the insert
    "Euro Cup Kings" about the history of the various cups. I have a couple 
    of questions that maybe someone could answer    
    
    The first year of the Fairs Cup (1958) had Barcelona winning a 8-2 two
    leg aggregate over "London." Who is this club - did they change their
    name or merge or are they defunct? Also why did they change the name to
    the UEFA Cup, and did it always start with a 64 team feild?
    
    Also, WS listed all the clubs participating in Europe, and their
    all-time records. Here are the top 20 teams ever, based on a 2 points-win, 
    1 point-draw system: 1) Real Madrid, 2) Barcelona, 3) Juventus, 4) Bayern 
    Munich, 5) Benfica, 6) Anderlecht, 7) Inter Milan, 8) Koln, 9) Liverpool, 
    10) Red Star Belgrade, 11) AC Milan 12) Ajax Amsterdam, 13) Glasgow 
    Rangers, 14) Bourussa Moechengladbach, 15) Hamburg, 16) Atletico Madrid, 
    17) Glasgow Celtic, 18) Sporting Lisbon, 19) Dynamo Kiev, 20) Valencia.   
    
    Tom

    It was called the "Fairs Cup", because only the teams whose cities held
    an international fair could participate in it. As it was restricted to
    only a number of cities, UEFA decided to organize a new Cup ranging any
    team in Europe (and to earn much money, of course).
    
    JUANJO

    As far as I know, the LONDON team in question (-3) was made up of
    players from London clubs, with the final being played at Highbury.
    
    I think that Birmingham were also a team made up from many, rather than
    Birmingham City, but don't quote me on that one.
    
    Maybe UEFA could return to this idea, after all, it's the only way
    Chelsea and West Ham and palace can get into the competition!!!!
    

                       <<< Note 7.69 by YUPPY::NASSIM >>>
                            -< ONE TEAM IN LONDON >-

>    As far as I know, the LONDON team in question (-3) was made up of
>    players from London clubs, with the final being played at Highbury.
>    
>    I think that Birmingham were also a team made up from many, rather than
>    Birmingham City, but don't quote me on that one.
    
>    Maybe UEFA could return to this idea, after all, it's the only way
>    Chelsea and West Ham and palace can get into the competition!!!!
                              ^^^^^^


Naughty Mick, now we wouldn't want to get the Net Filth involved, now would 
we?



Stuart   

    
    Can anyone let me know the dates for the 3rd round of the UEFA cup ?
    
    (Both ties please ??)
    

    3rd Round 1st Leg	27 November
    	      2nd Leg	11 December
    
    Quarter Finals 1st	4 March
    		   2nd	18 March
    
    Semi Final 1st	1 April
    	       2nd	15 April
    
    Final 1st		29 April
    	  2nd		13 May

    Not anymore it's 6-1 now !!!!!!

    WWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT????????????????

    
    
    	NAUCHATEL XAMAX 4 - 1 CELTIC

    
    
    
    Nauchatel Xamax 5 Celtic 1       latest score  15mins left to play
    
    Celtic are in serious S***.........and out of Europe again unless they
    pray for a miracle................

    
    La Gantoise		- Frankfurt 	0 - 0
    Hamburger SV	- CSKA Sofia	2 - 0
    BK1903 Copenhagen	- Bayern 	6 - 2
    Osasuna		- Stuttgart	0 - 0
    
    
    

    
    	Good luck to all the English teams in their respective competitions
    	tonight. Here's looking forward to seeing Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs
    	and of course the great Manchester United progressing through to
    	the next round. It'd be great to see another European trophy on its
    	way back to these shores this season, and I don't mind too much
        who wins it! 
    
    	Andy.

    Let's hope the English teams do better than the Jocks....
    
    jb.

    
    	Hmmmm...though Celtic aren't out *yet*......I remember Derby County
    	(I think..) slinging away a similar lead (against Real Madrid?) in 
    	the mid-seventies.
    
    	Andy.

    Werder Bremen have come back from similar deficits twice, so anything
    is possible however I wouldn't bet on Celtic doing it! 
    
    I think we'll see the exit of Spurs in this round, the other 3 teams 
    also have very tough ties. It 2 get through they'll have done well. 

    REPLY TO -2
    
    It was the other way round, as after Derby County won Real Madrid 4-1,
    Real beat Derby (5-1) in Madrid.
    
    

    
    
    QPR must have thrown away one of the biggest leads - I remember them
    being 6-1 up after the first leg against some Turkish side and then
    losing 5-0 in the return leg.
    
    Still I can't really see Celtic coming back.
    
    Paul

    As Andy said....good luck to all the English/British still in 
    Europe....time to get some respectability back after the international
    debacle last week..
    
    Kevin

    
    First half   40 min.  Tampere 0 Roma 1  Carnevale 

PSV - Anderlecht  0-0
Sion - Feyenoord  0-0
RW Erfurt - Ajax  1-2
FC Utrecht - Real Madrid  1-3

    
    	Brian
    
    	What is this! 
    
    	Utd losing 3-0
    
    	Must be a mistake....
    
    
    Vinnie.
    

    A Madrid 3 Man U 0
    Tottenham 3 Porto 1
    Auxerre 2 Liverpool 0
    The Arse 1 Benfica 1
    
    The best result was from the Arse - they played well (I only saw the
    whole of the 2nd half), this result is a good one for them, they need a
    0-0 or a win at Highbury, then it's into the lucrative mini-league - 3
    home games guaranteed vs Europe's finest, #4 million in advertising and
    TV money - #8 million if they get to the final ...
    Liverpool were ordinary (let's face it - they are very ordinary now),
    and were beaten by an average side, it looks like they are out. The
    Mancs were doing very well, but they had a siesta in the last 3 minutes
    - the match lasts 90 minutes, and now look like going out, I can't see
    tham beating A Madrid by 4. Tottenham looked OK, Lineker's class could
    have taken them to the next round, the gol they gave away was a bit
    soft, but 3-1 is a good score.
    
    In summary, 1 good, 1 reasonable and 2 poor.
    
    jb.

    Marseille 	- Sparta Prague		3-2
    Norrkopping	- Monaco		1-2
    Cannes	- Dynamo Moscou		0-1
    Auxerre	- Liverpool		2-0
    Lyon	- Trabzonspor		3-4

    Italian teams:
    *From the Boston Globe
    
    * Honved Budapest 2:1 Sampdoria
      Genoa           3:1 Dynamo Bucharest 
    
    I watched the first half of the Genoa game. Aguillera scored the first,
    Branco the second. I had to leave a halftime. From the way Dynamo
    played in the first 45 minutes I was surprised to hear they got a goal.
     
    JC

    
    Tampere Roma 1 1
    

    Did anyone see the PSV-Anderlecht match? It seems like a good result
    for Anderlecht, any time you can draw in the away leg. Who knows, PSV 
    are a good side and could easily do us in on the return leg to
    Brussels. Even still, I'm making the prediction: Anderlecht 2:0 PSV
    
    Tom

                        <<< Note 7.98 by GEMVAX::HILL >>>
                             -< PSV - Anderlecht >-

>>    Did anyone see the PSV-Anderlecht match? It seems like a good result
>>    for Anderlecht, any time you can draw in the away leg. Who knows, PSV 
>>    are a good side and could easily do us in on the return leg to
>>    Brussels. Even still, I'm making the prediction: Anderlecht 2:0 PSV
    
>>    Tom

I saw some highlights (about 30 seconds) of the first half and the complete
second half, it was crap both ways. I say both teams should be dropped for
the next round.

T_

    
    Torino 2  Boavista 0   Lentini, Annoni

    
    	Excellent result (but not as good a game as we hoped) for Arsenal
    	against Benfica. Benfica now *must* score in the second leg, so 
    	Arsenal are in good shape.
    
    	Spurs eventually got a good result, but looked dodgy at the back,
    	mostly due to the team selected. It will be different for the
    	second leg, so they *should* make it, with perhaps Lineker nicking
    	a vital away goal. But it will be tough.
    
    	Liverpool were rubbish and were lucky to only lose 2-0. But they're
    	going to find it difficult at Anfield, and the French side look
    	dangerous on the break. An away goal will kill Liverpool. This was
    	not the Liverpool of old - no wonder our European cousins were
    	surprised at the standard of this shadow of former glories.
    
    	United were undone in the last minutes but failed to really get in
    	to the game at all. Forget the "disallowed goal" - Ince was clearly
    	offside. 3-0 was a fair result on the night, but it looked a bit 
    	unfortunate considering it was only 1-0 with 4 minutes to go. Let's 
    	face it - we're out. 8-(
    
    	Andy.

    From VNS :
    


        European Cup, 2nd round 1st leg

        Olympic Marseille ... 3  Sparta Prague ....... 2
        Panathinaikos ....... 2  IFK Gothenburg ...... 0
        PSV Eindhoven ....... 0  RSC Anderlecht ...... 0
        Honved Budapest ..... 2  Sampdoria Genoa ..... 1
        FC Barcelona ........ 2  Kaierlautern ........ 0
        Benfica Lisbon ...... 1  Arsenal ............. 1
        Red Start Belgrade .. 3  Limassol ............ 1


        European Cup Winners Cup, 2nd round, 1st leg

        Tottenham Hotspur ... 3  FC Porto ............ 1
        Atletico Madrid ..... 3  Manchester United ... 0
        Katowice ............ 0  FC Bruges ........... 1
        A S Rome ............ 1  Tampere ............. 1
        FC Sion ............. 0  Feyenoord Rotterdam   0
        Ferencvaros ......... 3  Weder Bremen ........ 2
        Galatasaray ......... 0  Banik Ostrava ....... 1


        UEFA Cup,  2nd round, 1st leg

        A J Auxerre ......... 2  Liverpool ........... 0
        Olympic Lyonnais .... 3  Trabzonspor ......... 4
        FC Utrecht .......... 1  Real Madrid ......... 3
        PAOK Salonika ....... 0  FC Tirol ............ 2
        Sigma Olumouc ....... 2  Torpedo Moscow ...... 0
        Genoa ............... 3  Dynamo Bucharest .... 1
        AEK Athens .......... 0  Spartak Moscow ...... 1
        Rot Weiss Erfurt .... 1  Ajax Amsterdam ...... 2
    	Torino ........... 2  Boavista .......... 0
    	Sporting Gijon ... 2  Steaua Bucharest .. 2

    And the Bremen result is the wrong way round in VTX, they won 3-2 at
    home.
    
    
    		Steve

    Are those all the results in .102 ? It seems that there might be a few
    missing since the Champions' Cup and CWC have 7 matches. Shouldn't
    there be one more match in each? The UEFA Cup lists 10 matches, and I
    think there should be 16 at this stage. 
    
    When do they go into the mini-league format? Is that when they are down
    to the final four teams? Is it that was for ALL the cups or just the
    Champions' Cup?
    
    Tom 

    Tom,
    
    The round-robin mini-league only applies to the Champions' Cup. It will
    apply to the next round, last eight, so there will be two leagues of
    four teams with the winners of each league meeting in the final. I
    believe it was introduced as a one-off experiment for this season. It
    means that teams getting to the final will play a further seven games
    this season in the competition against only five before. Of course it
    also means that all teams reaching this stage are guaranteed six games,
    which means loadsa money, against maybe only two before if they got
    knocked out in the next round.
    
    Typical of the English Football League that they expand back to a
    ridiculous 42 domestic league matches this season!

    
    Does anyone know if the Arsenal-Benfica will be televised? And if so
    by whom, at what time?
    
    I am trying to see if we can get it via staellite.
    
    Thanks
    
    tony

    Tony,
    
    The ITV companies in the UK will either show the Arsenal-Benfica or
    ManUtd-Atletico game live at 8pm local time followed by highlights of 
    the other match. I don't think they have decided yet which one to show 
    live. BBC will be showing the Liverpool-Auxerre live at 7pm local time. 
    I haven't a clue whether any of these channels can be picked up via
    satellite. Maybe Portuguese tv will have the A-B match live.

    Tony, 
    
    The Plough & Stars pub in Cambridge has a sattelite dish and usually 
    shows *some* European game when they are on, so maybe it would be worth
    giving them a call to see if they are showing Arsenal-Benfica. Since 
    there are so many games, it's hard to say which one they might show.
    The flavor of this pub is definitely Irish/Brittish, so they may very
    well show an English team. On the other hand, I've heard (don't know
    how true this is) that the RAI signal is the easiest to pick up via
    sattelite in this area, so they might show an Italian game.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Tom

    Cup winner cup.
    
    Monaco - Norkorping	1-0	( Aggr. 3-1 , Monaco qualify )
    
    Very boring match, Monaco played badly as soon as they passed the
    middle of the field.This was very true during the second half.
    Norkorping was playing defensive during the first half but then
    started to get confident and entertain the match a little bit,
    though without real good chances to score (except one).
    
    Anyway they are in quarter final and will have all winter long to
    retreive their game.
    
    Thierry

    
    	Good luck to Arsenal, Liverpool and Celtic tonight. Also to Spurs
    	for tomorrow. I can't see Utd pulling their tie around from 0-3,
    	but let's put on a good performance and at least hope to win the
    	game if not the tie.
    
    	A realistic position after this round is that Arsenal and Spurs 
    	will still be in. Anything else is a bonus! Celtic have an outside
    	chance if they score early and swamp 'em. Liverpool look very
    	shakey at the moment. United have the hardest job of the lot..8-(
    
    	Andy.

    The live match on ITV tonight at 8 is Arsenal-Benfica.

    Lyon played today at 11:00 in Turkey and lost 4-1 to Trabzonpor.
    
    Trabzonpor qualified, good luck to them.
    
    Thierry

    
    Dinamo Bucarest - Genoa  2 2    (1 3)   Genea qualified
    

     Final score UEFA      6th nov 91.
    
    Celtic....1  Nauchatel Xamax..0     agg  2..5
    
    Liverpool 3  Aux?????  0            agg  3..2

    
    Unconfirmed scores but heard on the radio over here this morning :
    
    Arsenal and Manchester United are out.
    
    Aresnal  1  Benfica  3
    Man Utd  1  Atletico Madrid  1
    
    Looks like the BBC will have something to show in the next round while
    ITV only have Spurs left.

    
    Cup Winners Cup:
    
    Man Utd  1   Ath. Madrid  1        agg  1-4
    
    
    European Cup:
    
    Arsenal  1   Benefica     3        agg  2-4
    
    

    The Arse and the Mancs out ... but Liverpool go through.
    
    Proof surely that there is a GOD
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    
    
 	Nice performance from the Belgian teams. 3 out of 3.
    
    
    
        Anderlecht  2 - 0  PSV Eindhoven  agg  2-0
    	Club Brugge 3 - 0  GKS Katowice   agg  4-0
        Frankurt    0 - 1  A.A.Gent       agg  0-1
    
    
    Philippe

    Bad night for French clubs :
    
    Prague    2 - 1 Marseille
    Liverpool 3 - 0 Auxerre
    Moscou    1 - 1 Cannes
    
    The big surprise comes from Marseille which had a lot of difficulties
    in Prague and could not manage to play their game.The tchecoslovac team
    was bright and playing an extremelly dynamic game.
    Anyway Marseille missed the first Match, they were leading  3-0 and
    missed a penalty and then get catched up 3-2 by deconcentrating.

    
    	Well done Liverpool! Great performance. Brucie saved the day when
    	the score was only 1-0 with a great block when the striker looked
    	like getting that crucial away goal. Rousing stuff, especially
    	after Chinny Hill had written them off before the start...what more
    	motivation would anyone need ?! The man is a d*ckh*ad...
    
    	Arsenal were good for 20 minutes, got the goal they wanted, then 
    	played cr*p for 100 more. Missed their few chances and defended 
    	suicidally (wot was Dixon on?!). Benfica look a good side and 
    	deserved to win, but are not the world-beaters they ended up being
    	called by the ITV boys...
    
    	United held a lead for a while but had to settle for a 1-1 draw. No
    	disgrace and we weren't going to qualify anyway..8-(
    
    	No news from Celtic but they only managed to win 1-0 so go out 5-2
    	on agg. Didn't Charlie miss a spot-kick early on?
    
    	Come on Spurs tonight - you can do it! 
    
    	Andy.
                                             

    Kaiserslautern(sp?) were very unlucky. Watched the game on TV and the
    Germans played, at times, brilliant football. Cruyff said afterwards
    that they had been played off the park, but they got the goal they
    wanted (with 2 seconds of normal time remaining !!). K's could've won by 
    6 if they took their chances and Zubi-wassisname wasn't such a good keeper.
    
    	- Robin

    
    Boavista TORINO  0 0    (0 2)
    ROMA Tampere     5 2    (1 1)
    DORIA Honved     3 1    (1 2)
    D. Buc. GENOA    2 2    (1 3)
    

    FC Porto 0 Tottenham Hotspur 0 (1 - 3 aggregate win for Tottenham)

    
    English clubs in the quater finals...
    
       Feyanord v Spurs
    
       Fwarovski Tirol v Liverpool
    
    Dave...

    
    Monaco v Roma
    Steaua B. v Genoa
    AEK v Torino
    

    
    Werder Bremen ?
    Hamburger SV  ?
    
    Does anybody know ? (and will post it in here ...)
    
    Heiko
    

Here is what I've heard about the European matchs for next round.
If there are some errors, please forgive me.    


    Champions Cup:
    ============== 

    Group A:                    Group B:
    --------                    --------

    Anderlecht			Benfica	
    Red Star Belgrade	        Dynamo Kiev
    PAK				Barcelona
    Sampdoria			Sparta Prague


    
    Cup Winners Cup:
    ================
    
    Werder Bremen -  Galatasaray 
    AS Roma - Monaco
    Feyenoord - Tottenham
    Atletico Madrid - Club Brugge
    
    
    UEFA Cup:
    =========    

    Copenhague - Trabzonspor
    Hamburg - Sigma Olomouc?
    FC Tirol - Liverpool
    Osasuna - Ajax Amsterdam
    Steaua Bucarest - Genoa
    Torino - AEK Athenes
    Neuchatel - Real Madrid
    AA Gent - Dynamo Moscow 



Philippe
                          

    I saw 2 games on Wednesday, 
    
    	Kaiserslauter 3 Barcelona 1
    
    	brilliant game of football, European football at it's best.
    Barcelona tried to score so as to finish the tie off, and this lead to
    1FCK having loads of room and playing brill football. They scored 3 and
    could have had more, but Barca stuck to their task and rather
    fortunately scored in the last minute to go through on away goals. All
    credit to them though because they never tried to defend their 2-0 lead
    form the 1st leg. Excellent Swedish referee. Both teams deserved to go 
    through
    
    	Frankfurt 0 Gent 1
    
    	The diametric opposite of the other game. The Belgians played 10
    man defense and relied on 2 or 3 attacks on Fankfurts goal. The
    Belgians players seemed to fall over like Klinsmann on a good day, the
    goalkeeper was even injured by the ball! Frankfurt showed no
    imagination. The officials were abysmal, especially the French Ref.
    Neither team deserved to go through.
    
    	Come on Spartak!!!!
    
    		Steve

    What are the dates and fixtures for the next round of the Champions
    Cup? 
    
    Thanks,
    JC
    

    Does anybody know what the programm is for tonight???
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rob

  <<< Note 7.140 by BONNET::ZIJL "I think I can, I think I can,.....,I did" >>>
                             -< Tonights programm >-

>>    Does anybody know what the programm is for tonight???
    
>>    Thanks,
    
>>    Rob

Rob,

Ajax is playing Ossasuna (SP?) in Spain tonight.

T_

    
    Benfica plays tonight away to Dynamo Kiev, former team of one of
    its best players, Iuran. The reception he receives from the Kiev folks
    should be interesting as he left for Benfica under less than friendly
    terms.
    
    I predict 2:1 to Benfica.
    
    JC

    
    28 m.  AEK 1 TORINO 0
    

    
    30 m  Steaua 0 Genoa 1  Skuravy
    

    Anybody (Ton) know the results from yesterday evening, especially Ossasuna -
    Ajax???
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rob

  <<< Note 7.145 by BONNET::ZIJL "I think I can, I think I can,.....,I did" >>>
                         -< Yesterdays results (Ajax) >-

>>    Anybody (Ton) know the results from yesterday evening, especially Ossasuna -
>>    Ajax???
    
>>    Thanks,
    
>>    Rob

Rob,

I only saw the first half but Ajax scored in the second half and won 1-0,
a good away win wich virtually puts them in the next round.

T_

European Cup I

Group A:
		Anderlecht - Panathinaikos   0-0
		Sampdoria  - Red Star        2-0

group B:
		Dyn.Kiev   - Benfica         1-0
		Barcelona  - Sparta Prague   3-2


European Cup III

		A.A.Gent   - Dyn.Moskow      2-0
		Ossasuna   - Ajax            0-1
		Hamburg    - Olomouc         0-1
		AEK Athene - Torino          2-2
		Tirol      - Liverpool       0-2
		Steau Buk. - Genua           0-1
		Neuchatel  - Real Madrid     1-0
		Kopenhagen - Trabzonspor     1-0

    Wots with Neuchatel? First they trash Celtic now they beat Real Madrid.
    Are they for real or are teams over confident going up against them and
    leaving their good players at home?
    
    So far I think Neuchatel has been the cinderela team of 1991.
    
    JC

    Hassan's goal was really a beauty.One of the goal of the year for
    sure...
    
    Thierry

    Are the returns of the UEFA cup tomorrow???????????/
    
    Rob

    Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

    Here are the results of yesterday evening:
    
    C1:
    
    Poule A
    Panathinaikos-Sampdoria 0-0
    
    Poule B
    Sparta Prague-Dinamo Kiev 2-1
    
    
    C3:
    
    Trabzonspor-BK 1903 Kopenhagen 1-1 (0-1)
    Dinamo Moscow-AA Gent          0-0 (0-2)
    Liverpool-FC Tirol             4-0 (2-0)
    Genoa-Steaua Bucarest          1-0 (1-0)
    Torino-AEK Athenes             1-0 (2-2)
    Ajax-Osasuna                   1-0 (1-0)
    

    I totally forgot:
    
    C1 Poule B
    Benfica-Barcelona 0-0
    
    Rob.

    Has anybody seen the Ajax-Osasuna game yesterday, if so how was it???
    
    Rob

    somebody knows the UEFA Cup draw???

    
    And my predictions are...........
    
    Ajax to beat Ghent 2-1 on aggregate
    Geneo to beat Liverpool 3-1 on aggregate
    Real Madrid to beat Olmutz 4-1 on aggregate
    BK 1903 to beat Torino 2-1 on aggregate
    
    

    Can anybody clarify how many slots England has in '92/3 for the UEFA
    Cup?
    
    I presume we still have our 1 Champions Cups slot, and our one ECWC
    slot for the FAC winners, but do we get two slots in the EUFA Cup? The
    Gruaniad this morning implies that a slot will go to the winners of the
    Rumbelows this year, so if we do only have two, that means just the
    league runners up get in again, Cup wins permitting.
    
    I am presuming that the order of preference is:
    
    Euro Cup
    ECWC
    EUFA
    
    Paul

Can anyone post an update of the next European Cup matches to be played? I think
tomorrow night (March 4) is the next match night.

For the Champions Cup, what are the latest tables? I think each team has played 
3 games so far (once against each other club). As an Anderlecht fan, we have our 
backs against the wall, and nothing short of a win will do. Anderlecht have 
drawn with Sampdoria and Panathinaikos and lost to Red Star. There is still 
hope, but...

I also heard (don't know if it's true) that they would do this mini-league thing 
next year with the other cups. Anyone like/dislike this system more than the 
aggregate knockout system?

Tom

    Taken from the VNS
    
    European Cup
    Panathinaikos ... 0  Red Star Belgrade ... 2
    Anderlecht ...... 3  Sampdoria ........... 2
    Benfica Lisbon .. 1  Sparta Prague ....... 1
    Dynamo Kiev ..... 0  Barcelona ........... 2

    European Cup Winners Cup
    AS Roma ......... 0  AS Monaco ........... 0
    Werder Bremen ... 2  Galatasaray ......... 1
    Atletico Madrid . 3  FC Bruges ........... 2
    Feyenoord ....... 1  Tottenham Hotspur ... 0

    UEFA Cup
    Copenhagen BK ... 0  Torino .............. 2
    Sigma Olomouc ... 1  Real Madrid ......... 1
    Genoa ........... 2  Liverpool ........... 0
    Gent ............ 0  Ajax Amsterdam ...... 0

Does anyone have hte full results of the European matches? 

Thanks

    Last night 
    
    	FC Brugge actually played football! And beat Werder Bremen 1-0.
    
    	Also 
    
    	Genoua 2 Ajax 3
    
    	
    	Anybody have the rest?
    
    
    		Steve
    

    
        
    A few more
    
    
    Sparta Prag 1-0 Barcelona
    Benfica     0-0 Dynamo Kiev   ???
    Red Star    1-3 Sampdoria
    Anderlecht  0-0 Pathiankos (sp)
    
    AS Monaco   1-1 Brugge
    Real Madrid 2-1 Torino
    
    Paul	
    

    Sporting Lisbon 5 - 0 Dynamo Kiev (or was I dreaming....."

    
    Could well be. Blame it on the Swiss Teletext. 

    
    	You were dreaming ;-)
    
    	It *should* have read    Benfica 5-0 Sparta
    
    	Andy.

    Who goes through to the Champions final then?

    JF
    
    I don't think anyone's definitely there yet but Sampdoria and Barcelona
    must be favourites.

    European Champions Cup
    Group A
    Anderlecht ........ 3  Red Star Belgrade .... 2
    Sampdoria ......... 1  Panathinaikos ........ 1

    Final table:           P  W  D  L  F  A  Diff  Pts
    1. Sampdoria           6  3  2  1 10  5   +5    8
    2. Red Star Belgrade   6  3  0  3  9 10   -1    6
    3. Anderlecht          6  2  2  2  8  9   -1    6
    4. Panathinaikos       6  0  4  2  1  4   -3    4

    Group B
    Barcelona ......... 2  Benfica .............. 1
    Dynamo Kiev ....... 1  Sparta Prague ........ 0

    Final table:           P  W  D  L  F  A  Diff  Pts
    1. Barcelona           6  4  1  1 10  4   +6    9
    2. Sparta Prague       6  2  2  2  7  7    0    6
    3. Benfica             6  1  3  2  8  5   +3    5
    4. Dynamo Kiev         6  2  0  4  3 12   -9    4

    Barcelona will meet Sampdoria in the final at Wembley on May 20th

    European Cup Winners Cup
    Feyenoord Rotterdam 2  A S Monaco ........... 2
     Witschge 51'           Weah 33'
     Damaschin 87'          Barros 50'
     - Monaco qualify on away goals

    
    Werder Bremen ..... 2  FC Bruges ............ 0
     - Werder Bremen qualify 2-1

    Werder Bremen meet Monaco in the final in Lisbon on May 6th

    UEFA Cup
    Torino ............ 2  Real Madrid .......... 1
     Torino win 3-2
    Ajax Amsterdam .... 1  Genoa ................ 1
     Ajax win 4-3

    Ajax meet Torino in the 2-leg final
                                       
    
    
    
    
    

And one interesting thing about last night's results is that not one of those 
'brilliant' sides who knocked our gallant (English) teams out has made a 
final!

grahame

    
    	Werder Bremen turned in their first good performance of the season
    in beating FC Brugge 2-0 last night. It was a good game marred by some 
    silly refereeing the second half by Englishman Howard Wills(?). 
    Realisticly Bremen goalkeeper Oliver Reck should have walked for 
    retaliating on a Brugge attacker, but only saw yellow, then 10 minutes 
    later Akanaki (Something like that anyway), a superbly skillful African
    player, was sent off for going for a 50-50 ball in the goalmouth, Reck 
    made a meal of the collision and the Ref sent him off! This sort of 
    goalkeeper protection will spoil the game.
    
    
    		Steve

    
    Quite agree Steve, very entertaining game though the 'Welsh' referee
    made some very stupid decisions favouring the Germans on nearly every
    occasion. In fact on all 4 occasions when he showed the card to the
    Belgians, there was some doubt as to the merit attached to his
    decisions. In the first case when the tricky Amokachi went in on Reck,
    the ball was still up for grabs..maybe he want'd to cool down any
    possible build of tension stemming from 1st leg activities. The
    incident between Booy and Reck was stupid on both the referee's and
    Reck's part. Throughout Bremen's run in the competition, Reck has been
    so influential in contribution. When Booy went in to challenge, the ball
    was in no way near being in Reck's possesion...fair challenge..Reck
    gets up simultanously with Booy and proceeds to forearm smash the
    Belgian to the ground...Reck then falls over feigning injury. Both get
    booked...Reck should have received the only punishment and red at that.
    However, the most ridiculous decision was Van der Elst getting booked 
    for supposedly tripping the Bremen forward...no physical contact was
    made whilst the forward tripped over his own bootlaces..... As for
    Amokachi being sent off....was the referee told by UEFA that Brugge
    would probably not be allowed to play pending the outcome of the 1st
    leg incidents.  
    
    So that was the card giving. The game itself was a lot more exciting
    than the other games on show last night. Bockenfeld's winner on the
    hour was a cracking goal preceded by some good run up play. However 
    man of the match for me was the New Zealander Rufer followed closely
    (for the time he was on) by Amokachi.
    
    Looking forward to the Final from Lisbon.....
    
    
    Dezzz.    

    U.S Noters,
    
    The week-end TV program in USA Today list the Feyenoord-Monaco game to
    be broadcasted on "Telemundo" at 4.00 pm EDT next Sunday.
    Could anyone tape this game and get it to me? Needless to day I will pay
    for the tape....
     I can be reached at DTN:471-5302.
    
    Thanks in advance.
        
    Jacques
    
    

    Will tickets for the European Cup Final be available on the day ?
    
    regards ... Stevie

    I saw the highlights of the Torino/Ajax match last week on the TV.
    Despite being a very good football match, I had forgotten about all
    this European nonsense of feigning injury, diving about/falling over,
    and worst of all man-handling referees.   It's the only thing I don't
    miss about French football (OK, I don't miss Thierry's coughing
    either ..)
    
    Ray

    
    
    
    Belgian teams for the first round :
    
    C1 : Club Brugge -   FC Vallette (Malta) or Maccabi Tel Aviv (IS)
    
    C2 : Glenavon (IR) - Antwerp
    
    C3 : Edimburgh ? (Scot) - Anderlecht
    
         Portadown (IR) - Standard
    
         Orebro ? (SK) - KV Mechelen
    
    
    
    Philippe
    

    
    C3 : Hibernian (EDINBURGH) V Anderlecht
    
    
    SQF Jambo

For our Welsh supporter:

	Admira Wacker (Austria) v Cardiff (16 Sep)

grahame

    GASH,
    
    You've made me so happy - it's the first time in oh about 15 years
    that the Bluebirds have been into Europe. Now all I have to do is
    get a training course in Munich around the same time (:==:)
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Watched the Napoli - PSG game last night.  One of the most composed
    games of football I've seen in a long time.  
    
    	Mind you, thinking about it, as I didn't see Liverpool last 
    season, it _would_ have been a long time ... -;)
    
    JF  -  2 beautiful strikes by Sir George !
    
    Dave

    In the final stages of the European Cup, what happens if the top
    two teams are tied on points ??   Is the winner decided on goal
    difference or what ??
    
    Ray

YYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the first time in the history of UEFA Cups, two French sides have
advanced to the quarter-finals stage:

	PARIS SG

	Paris drew 1:1 at Anderlecht (Belgium) after 0:0 at home

	AUXERRE

	Auxerre beat Standard Liege 2:1 after 2:2 away.

Let us hope for a French final!

The draw will take place on the 15th of December.

    
    Can anyone post the results of the champion's league and the UEFA Cup?
    
    Ta,
    	Heiko

    Group A
    
    CSKA Moskow     0   -   1     Rangers
    Marseille       3   -   0     Brugges
    
    Group B
    
    IFK Gothenburg  1   -   0     FC Porto
    PSV Eindhoven   1   -   2     AC Milan
    
    
    
    Gary

	Galatasary 3	Roma 2

	Roma win 5-4.

g

    
    Anybody know when the Real Madrid v Vitesse Arnhem 2nd leg is being 
    played ? I thought it was last night, but can't find the result.
    
    Do Juventus play their 2nd leg against Sigma Olomouc tonight ?
    
    Del.

    
    Madrid & juventus both play tonight.

           <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 275.0                     France vs. Belgium                        1 reply
GLDOA::BOSSONNEY                                      8 lines  10-DEC-1992 14:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For some us who don't have access to European news would anybody care
    to post the results of last night C3 and C1 Europena cups? 
    I am quite interested in the outcome of the triple Belgium-French
    confrontation.... (Anderlect- PSG, Auxerre-Standard and OM-Bruges).
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jacques


           <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 275.1                     France vs. Belgium                         1 of 1
SALES::THILL                                          4 lines  10-DEC-1992 15:13
                    -< Depending on your perspective..... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bad news for the Belgian clubs....Anderlecht and Standard were
    eliminated and Marseille beat Club Brugge 3-0  :-(
    
    Tom 

rep .194

'cuse me but have you seen another game than I did??? Milan outplayed PSV, yes
correct and very true but van Basten was never really in the game and only had
one real shot at goal the whole game, now if you are talking mr Football you can
not go around Romario, he is PSV! The way he sended Baresi into the woods in the
first half and the way he scored the PSV goal must rate him as one of the best
in the world.

T_

    
    rep. 195
    
    	Two/three years ago, Mr Goethals explained in details in a French 
    newspaper why the Belgian Clubs were by far superior to the French
    ones: better tactics, better physic condition, fighting spirit,
    mentality, not spoiled by money, etc, etc...
        He implicitely admitted yesterday that this is in the souvenir
    basket.
        Paris SG - Anderlecht     -  Paris qualified 
        Auxerre - Standard Liege  -  Auxerre qualified
        Marseilles - Bruges       -  3:0 (cham. ligue)
    
        
      PYV    
            
    

I agree with -2. Romario played Van Basten off the park the other night.

I'm surprised Milan haven't offered fifty zillion pounds for him already just
to stop him playing in the return leg.

If that Lentini chap is worth thirteen I dread to think what they'll pay for a 
real world class player. Or have we just not seen the best side of Lentini yet?

Mike

Re -2.

I am sure Goethals wanted to say: "Since I moved to French football it has 
improved a lot!".

But decency prevented him!

JF

PS/Romario, Van Basten etc. Both great players. But Romario is inconsistent.

	Juventus 5 	Olomouc 0			Juve 7-1

	Real Madrid 1 	Vitesse Arnhem 0		Real 2-0


On the other front, Romario looked incredible (again) on the little bit we saw 
in England, but Van Basten produces consistently at the highest (club) level. 
I'd agree he's the best in the world at the moment.

grahame

    
    This guy Lama has been in the France Football weekly eleven 6 times
    this season but against Madrid he was all over the place. He was
    responsible for 2 of the goals...he reminded me of Bruce Grobelaar on
    one of headless chicken attacks.
    
    Still we'll see what happens in a couple of weeks.
    
    Most interesting shot of all the ties was Juve's Vialli with the
    overhead kick hitting the bar.....don't miss it if you get the
    chance...
    
    Overall though, I think a lot of the excitement has gone out of the
    European Cup with this League system. We'll probably never see the
    urgency, thus great football, of Milan this season as they're coasting
    to the Final. There, we might see a good Final, but why should this
    change the habits of most Finals over the past few years even if tey
    meet the likes of Marseille. (Red Star v Marseille..now that taught me
    to shut up before proclaiming a great match).
    
    Dezzz.

    
    No comments from the French nationals in here on the Paris game last
    night?
    
    Brief resume:
    
    Paris had the better of the first half going in front after 22 minutes,
    still stood at half-time.  Juventus were very strong after the break,
    equalising after 54 minutes, deserved.  Paris then had the opportunity
    to re-establish themselves, but instead of playing the way they did in
    the first half chose to use up time whnever they had the ball. 
    Juventus continued to press and scored the winner from a brillian
    free-kick in the 91st (YUP NINETY-ONE) minute.  The free-kick was
    conceded by a defender trying an overhead kick to clear the ball while
    standing behind an attacker, missed the ball and kicked him in the
    back. Dumb!!
    
    I thought that St. G had a cracking first half, but should have been
    better prepared for the Juventus onslaught after half-time.  Fair
    enough to concede the first goal, but the free-kick, and the Parisienne
    style, in the second half were awful.
    
    Bookings 5 for Juventus and 0 for Paris.
    
    Paris should go through after the second leg.

    Danke.
    
    I  hope I have SAT1

    
    If not there's bound to be a porno film on one of the channels....  
    :-)
    
    Paul

    I'd rather watch Auxerre trash Dortmund FREE than pay TV :-)

Apparently the coverage on SAT1 starts at 22:00.

The match is shown on EUROSPORT from 20:00 onwards with live coverage
starting at 20:40 according to Eurosport Videotext.

Eduard

    JF ...who did you say was trashed by Dortmund ??????

    hmmm, DSF is showing it live at 8:30 pm in Germany. It will be great to
    listen to German commentary I guess.
    
    John, wait until tonight. Auxerre have the habit of scoring loadsa
    goals at home. What was the last team to visit Auxerre?
    
    hmmmm
    
    JF

    re-1 that was a team that lost because their keeper made terrible
    mistakes......and Germans have good keepers !
    But the German commentary is not my favourite.......
    
    hmmmmm

    Can someone post the scores of the first Euro semis please ??   BBC
    Ceefax didn't have them or had wiped them by the time I looked.
    Parochial or what ??
    
    Thanks - Ray

    
    AJ Auxerre - Borussia Dortmund
    	2		0
    
    Dortmund qualify after penalty shoot-out.
    Heiko

Some game this. So much action and passion. Two ordered off and I think the ref 
booked everybody else, including the linesmen. Auxerre played with great 
enthusiasm and skill and came so close to scoring the third goal that they 
needed. One of the Dortmund players made the most amazing goal-line clearance.
The Dortmund goalie saved Auxerre's sixth penalty. End of story.

Gordon.

   Well Iam glad Dortmund made it to the final last night, they deserve it
although its also hard on Auxerre who nearly clinched it. A few things that
weren't impressive last night were

1) The referee from Switzerland, who in my opinion had no idea whatsoever about
   playing the advantage rule.... and

2) The behaviour of the Auxerre captain and Michael Rummenigge after they took
    their penaltys.

  Oh I nearly forgot the German commentator who knows as much about footie as
my granny... he kept calling Michael Rummenigge "Kalle" which is his famous
brothers name "Karl-Heinz Rummenigge"  opps sorry gran.... get this git off the
box, he's as bad as Fassbender... and he sucks......


                                                                  -dave-

    
    	I agree with the last couple, a great game somewhat spoiled by the
    Auxerre captain (who made Vinny Jones look like Gary Lineker), and the
    fact that it had to be decided on penalties.
    
    	And how that Dortmund defender kept the ball out just after
    Auxerres second...

    Some drama!
    
    I enjoyed listening to German commentary. My German is not good enough
    to really understand what he was saying but I appreciated his fair-play
    attitude, like when Auxerre fast and accurate he was in awe.
    
    No team deserved to lose after the 2 games so the shoot-out was the
    only way I suppose. In most cases, the French lose on penalties. Good
    to know for a foreign team!
    
    William Prunier was awful. didn't he spit on Chapuisat once?
    
    JF
    
    PS/Tonight Marseille will exert revenge at Brugge's expense. 3:1 to
    Marseille and the Huns can wipe their blue tears already.

    
    
    First Semi-Final ECWC :
    
               ANTWERP  3 - 1  Moskow  (Agg 3-2)
    
    
    Antwerp qualified for the final in Wembley next May.
                                                        

    
    >Antwerp qualified for the final in Wembley next May.
    
    That's the same team that needed penalties to defeat the Glenavon
    part-timers in the first round.  
    
    They must have improved an awful lot since September.
    
    Gary.

    Any one saw Marseille match last night ?
    comments ?
    
    Thanks Thierry

    
    Please!

    
    Re .221
    
    >> That's the same team that needed penalties to defeat the Glenavon
    
    
    Antwerp went to extra-times and penalties several times in this cup.
    The suspens was staying up to the end in almost each match. But that's
    the way the team plays, fighting till the last minute. Antwerp never
    was and never intends to be a big team in Europe. They are usually out
    of the cup before Christmas. This time they stayed longer than
    expected. But one thing is sure : whatever the result of the final is, 
    the players will be welcomed when they come back to Antwerp.   
    
    
    Philippe
             

    
    RE .223
    
    
    		Paris SG  0 - 1 Iuventus Turin
    				Baggio  (I think)
    
    So the final is between Borussia Dortmund and Iuve.
    
    Eduard

It seems that the greed of UEFA (and presumably the top clubs) knows no 
bounds. Flushed with the success of the 'Champions League', next season it's 
going to produce semi-finalists, not finalists. So four more matches to be 
televised at huge expense/profit.

And of course, if they'd done that this year, Rangers would have got their 
game against Milan!

grahame

    Re.-1
    
    The big change about the European cup has also been rejected Yesterday 
    by UEFA. There will be no Super League with something like 128 clubs.
    They said this would have come up with something more like a monster,
    too long and too complicate that would have messed everything up.

    Thanks Jeff to keep us updated on the other side of the pond...
    
    Well done the Italian clubs 

    European Cup Winners Cup 2nd semi:
    
    	Parma 0 Atletico Madrid 1  (2-2)  Parma qualify on away goals
    	Antwerp 3 Spartak Moscow 1 (3-2)
    
    Final = Parma v. Antwerp @Wembley on May 12.
    
    Ray
    
    PS UEFA results please ??

Re .-1

Hi Ray,

They're all in previous replies - read before you write!

grahame

    RE. .230
    
    See notes .215, .225, .226 for results and replies in between
    for comments on the matches.
    
    Eduard

    Anyone got the score from Borussia Dortmund v Juventus

    Borussia Dortmund 1 - Juventus 3 (Roberto Baggio got a couple)
    

    
    Burussia	-   Juve 
    
    Rummenigge 1'
    		   D.Baggio 27'
    		   R.Baggio 31'
    		   R.Baggio 7X'
    
    Heiko (crawling out from under his desk)

    
    	Dortmund were well beaten. In Dortmunds defence that was their
    worst performance of the season, and they were missing 2 or 3 first
    choice defenders. Juves first two goals underlined this dramatically as
    first Dino Baggio scored easily, then R.Baggio was left totally free 10
    metres in front of goal and he scored comfortably.
    
    	Roberto Baggio was absolutely brilliant.
    
    
    		Steve

Was it just me or was Baggio about 5 yards off-side when the first goal
went in???

I guess it was me as none of the Dortmund players complained. Was there 
somone on the line, out of shot??

A very good performance by Juve, but I feel the second game won't be worth
watching as they'll probably sit on the lead they already have.

I had the game on live on SAT1 and I must say what a pleasure it was to watch 
a football match and not understand what the KOMENTOR is saying, well most of 
it.

Al

> I had the game on live on SAT1 and I must say what a pleasure it was to watch
>a football match and not understand what the KOMENTOR is saying, well
>most of it.
    

	And believe me with THAT commentator, you may consider yourself
doubly lucky! :-(

    what was the result in the 2nd leg of the UEFA?

	Juventus won the second leg 3-0...
	
							.Andre.

    I thought that somebody would beat me to the punch by posting
    the results of last night's Champions Cup Final....
    
    			OM - Milan
    			 1    0
    		      Boli 44'
    
    I managed to watch the game  here in Detroit with a couple of fellow
    Frenchmen. I suppose that for a neutral spectator the show was not
    worth much. The first half saw a battle of midfields and the Milanese
    getting caught in the off-side trap quite systematically. Marseille
    jumped on one of their rare opportunities and Boli headed the ball into
    the net on a well taken corner kick from Abedi Pele. I felt that the
    Italian goalkeeper was amazingly "quiet" on this one...
    
    The second half saw Milan camped in Marseille's half. The biggest
    danger coming from Lentini on the left wing. Papin came in for Donadoni
    and was close to being tagged as a traitor to l'"Ohem" when his volley
    went wide of Barthez right goal post. I will remember for a long time
    the sheer determination on Papin's face when he was about to come in...
    
    Overall, I would say that Marseille did to Milan whatRed Star Belgrade did
     to them 2 years ago...
     The monkey is off the French teams' back. They too can win a European 
    trophy. The ghost of Reims, Saint Etienne, Bastia, and Monaco are gone.
    
    Allez l'OM.
    
    Jacques                                          

    <<Boli headed the ball into the net on a well taken corner kick from 
      Abedi Pele. I felt that the Italian goalkeeper was amazingly "quiet" 
      on this one..>>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
     Absolutely shocking cover at the corner kick was to blame for the
     winner. The keeper was blameless, as there should AWLAYS be a defender
     on each post at a corner kick situation. Boli's header was good, but
     not that good & with very litle power. A defender on the back post
     would have easily cleared the effort with boot or head !
 
     Sqfcsc
    
    

    
    
    	H E L P !!!
    
    	I wuz jus havin a hypo-pathetic conversation about who will get
    into the various competitions in Europe and how and why.. what effect
    would Man-U winning the Treble have etc.  Can anyone post the details.
    
    Thanx
    SteveP

As far as I understand it:-

The league champions enter the European Champions Cup and we have 1 UEFA cup 
place for runners-up, therefore these two places will probably go to 
    
    Blackburn and MANU (the order is not significant ;-)). 

F.A. Cup winners enter European Cup Winners Cup, this could also be MANU.

Coca-Cola Cup winners enter UEFA Cup, this could also be MANU.

However if MANU win either/both cups then its one/two more UEFA places in the 
league. 

Therefore there are 4 places in Europe and if Arsenal win in their current 
competition they will defend it next season to make it 5.

The teams seriously in the hunt for third and fourth in the League are 
probably Arsenal, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield Wednesday and Liverpool. 

I'm sure somebody will correct my mistakes !

Cheers,

Andy                                                     
    

So if Man U win the league and the FA cup we don't get a Cup Winners Cup place?

mike

    If Man Utd win the FA cup, then the runners up enter the Cup Winners'
    Cup. There isn't an extra place in the UEFA cup unless they win the
    Coca-Cola.
    
    Dave.

    Possibly top 4 places in the Premiership will qualify for Europe if
    
    1. Manu win League and Coke Cup
    2. Arsenal win Cup-Winners Cup AND come third (and only third).
    
    Runners up in FA Cup go into ECWC if Manu win that as well.
    
    Paul.
    

    
    Milan are winning 1-0..
    
    Rick

    Milan are now 2-0 up.. :->
    
    Rick

It's now Milan 4 (Massaro 2, Savicavic, Dessaily)
         Barca 0

Two bad teams. If this is the cream of European soccer, then it's bad. 


C U N N O 

    not sure if I agree with the master statisician on this one (:==:)
    
    Just back from the bar where I saw a Milan side minus Papin, Guillt,
    van Basten, baresi, Costacurta absolutely destroy Barcelona. This was
    a 4-0 game that should have been about 8-0.
    
    Mila scored three wonderful goals
    -the second when the ball was played back and for across the field
     before being pulled back for massaro to smash in
    -the third an outrageous lob from outside the edge of the area
    -the final goal a wonderful team goal played through the heart of the
    defence. 
    
    milan the best team in europe - probably?
    
    regards,
                  
    Andrew.D.Wicks 

    
    Barcalona look lost without Darren Mathews...

    Impressive display by Milan. It has been said that Milan have been very
    negative this season but on this display seem to be able to play
    whatever style that suits. They really did look top class. I didn't see
    the whole of the match - did Barcelona get even onm decent chance?
    
    Perhaps a report from out Italian correspondent, Dom Turner, could tell
    us whether (and why) this was so different from their other
    performances this season. Was it perhaps because with two first choice
    deffenders out they thought attacking was their best policy. How do the
    Manu and Rangers supporters think their teams would fare against Milan
    next season.
    
    Paul.
      

  Having watched a lacklustre and lucky Milan scrape a vitory over Barca
  I can only suggest that they engrave Manchester Uniteds name on the
  trophy now.

  A Blinkered-Red

    Doesn't Jimmy Hill talk a lot of crap.. I've never know someone brown
    nose so much.. The God Father ( ol' Tel ) look positively embarrased! 
    
    Good display by Milan.. glad they won it.. they should have won last
    years really... it was good to see Van Basten on the bench cheering his
    team mates on.. hope he's back for next season.. :->
    
    Rick.

    
    Well, what a display. Milan certainly confounded the predictions of the
    journalists. They were awesome. They attacked with panache, defended
    unbelievably coherently without the usual central defenders. Barcelona
    were plainly caught on the double bluff. Cruyff was outsmarted...and
    this doesn't happen too often.
    
    To say these were bad teams and Manchester United's name should be on
    the trophy is a tad naive. Manchester United's defence would look very
    average against either of these teams and I couldn't really see them
    getting into Milan's third of the field. 
    This guy Massaro has certainly earned his keep this season. What with
    getting Gullit back next season it looks like Cappello may finally have
    made the transition from his dour side to the free-flowing football
    which Milan showed under Sacci 5 years ago.  
    
    This match has certainly made me very worried about a certain match in the
    middle of June !!!
    
    
    Dezzz.

    >>To say these were bad teams and Manchester United's name should be on
    >>the trophy is a tad naive. Manchester United's defence would look very
    >>average against either of these teams and I couldn't really see them
    >>getting into Milan's third of the field. 
 

I think that Monsieur Pane was taking the preverbial Urine :-)


Peter.

    
    I plead guilty......a touch on the slow side this morning ??!!??
    
    Dezzz.

    Who was the BBC commentator last night ?  I think they should sling
    Motson out to the wolves (or SKY) and give this guy the job permanetly.
    
    As to the match, AC looked superb, taking the pi$$ out of Barca almost
    from the start.  I agreed with Liam's observation in the second half, I
    thought Barca would finish the game minus several players, they did
    very well to control there tempers in the face of such obvious baiting.
    
    The ref was excellent and his attitude probably prevented the total
    loss in Barca players' composure, both linesmen (well primarily the one
    patrolling the Barca right back) made a couple of superb (and close)
    offside calls.
    
    All in all, great entertainment for a Euro-final, on this form ManU are 
    likely to be runners-up next year.
    
    
    Nev

    >on this form ManU are likely to be runners-up next year.
    
    Thats as long as they don't come up against any Turkish teams! :->
    
    Rick.

    
    The commentator was the excellent Barry Davies. He should replace the
    awful Motson, who should be banished to Radio Cornwall or something.
    
    Tony
    
    

Have to agree with Dezzz, awesome was the word. Bizarrely, I was even reminded 
of Arsenal (sorry!), as the victory seemed to come from defending in front of 
the back four - Albertini, Savicevic, and Donadoni defended and broke so 
quickly that Barca were always outnumbered in both halves of the field. And 
Desailly was inspired . . . . my MOTM.

Sadly I didn't think Barca had the stomach for the battle; they lost almost 
every 50-50 ball. Perhaps that's just more the result of how good Milan were.

grahame

    re: .254
    >Perhaps a report from out Italian correspondent, Dom Turner, could tell
    >us whether (and why) this was so different from their other
    >performances this season. Was it perhaps because with two first choice
    >deffenders out they thought attacking was their best policy. How do the
    >Manu and Rangers supporters think their teams would fare against Milan
    >next season.
    
    Paul, 
    
    WHETHER: Well, having seen Milan umpteen times this season, I have to
    say that they were unrecognisable last night. All this season, they've
    looked competent, efficient...but boring. Last night was a whole new
    ball game (hmm, just getting in some practice for US94!).
    WHY: Dunno...but I hope Capello is now convinced that you can win
    football matches and friends at the same time.
    
    Excellent performance, thoroughly deserved victory. I was one of those
    who originally tipped Barcelona, and I think most neutrals wanted
    Barcelona to win. But on the night, almost all the football came from
    Milan (in the strange role of underdogs). 
    
    I think Cruyff lost the game even before it started, with his
    ridiculously arrogant pre-match propoganda ("we're content to be the
    favorites, because we know we're the better side"..."Milan look a pale
    shadow of Sacchi's team", etc). I've never heard such talk from a
    manager prior to an important match - what a knob! As Brian Clough
    always used to advocate: "Say nowt, win it, then talk your mouth off!".
    Cappello *didn't* talk his mouth off after the game...in fact, he
    behaved like a gentleman, but I'm sure he was grateful to Cruyff for
    geeing his team up.
    
    Barcelona? I don't think I've ever seen a team look so unprepared for
    an important match. Physically, they looked pitiful - second to the
    ball every time. Leave Man. Utd out of it; Wimbledon would have taken
    them apart last night.
    
    Actually, Dezz, I think the comments about Manchester Utd engraving their 
    name on the cup were a bit tongue in cheek. However, Cappello (in a
    post-match interview) did say: "The teams that play the best football
    in Europe are Milan, Barcelona...and Manchester Utd at times". I think
    this is interesting for several reasons:
    
    - What Milan have dished up for 90% of this season is hardly my idea of
    good footy. Let's hope they've turned the corner now.
    
    - Obviously, Barcelona are capable of playing very attractive football.
    However, last night was one in the eye for the advocates of the
    "passing game" as a cure for all evils. Football 90s-style also
    consists of pressurizing your opponents, running of the ball, and
    er...trying to get the ball towards your opponents' goal. Eleven Ray
    Wilkins (excellent passer as he is) never won anything.
    
    - Cappello obviously thinks Man Utd will be at least a force to be
    reckoned with next year (over and above PSG, Ajax, etc.) despite their
    failure in the Champions Cup this year.
    
    The downside of the Milan win (at least for us here in Italy) is that
    "Rubberface" Berlusconi will doubtless use this victory to add lustre
    to his political image. Yuk.
    
    Dom
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     
    
    

    
    I remember meeting Barry Davies a few years back when he was supposed
    to be commentating on an FA cup match between Barnsley and Sheffield
    United. It was snowed off and we were all catching the train to
    Sheffield. There stood bazzer huddled amidst a foot of snow looking
    right sorry for himself till one Barnsley lad piped up:
    "ne'er mind lad, dunt worry, tha'll still get paid!"
    He then livened up a bit an swapped a few football stories with us for
    the next half hour. He's a decent bloke and his knowledge of football
    is extremely extensive.
    
    Has anyone met motty?
    
    Ian.

  After Milan went 1-0 last night I considered turning the TV off and going out
for a ride on my MTB.. I expected them to defend their 1-0 lead to the end, but
as we all know by now they didn't... Congrats to them on playing total football
last night, and not one of their players looked weak, compared to most of Barcas.

   Can someone out there post the format for next years competition???? A lot
of good teams are around next year it should be a good competition..... I
personally would rate Man utd around 4th or 5th in the elite group along with
Ajax, PSG, and the Portugese champions.. behind Milan, Barca, Bayern Munich.....


                                                                 slainte....

                                                                     -dave-

    A little late, but I thought it was my duty to say something too.
    First of all : CONGRATS to Milan.
    Great win. I only saw the first half, and suspected them to defend to
    keep the 1-0. But, as said before, they went on. Great.
    
    Maybe Barca was still feeling victorious because of winning the
    Championship in Spain again.
    
    As for next year's League:
    I hope the team I love most, will do good: Ajax.
    They play great football to watch, but sometimes the results are not
    that good because their opponents defend all the time.
    A good example of how we play was given a few years ago when we took
    the UEFA Cup, with great football, and no losses in away games (or 1?).
    I hope we can play our own football, and Van Gaal won't let too many
    players be bought away.
    
    Other teams: ManU seem to play good solid football, I think they will
    come very far. Semi-final or maybe even the final.
    
    Off course, Barca and Milan will be teams everybody wants to beat.
    Not to forget the french Champion, allthough I'm not sure who that is.
    Maybe PSG? The french teams are always hard to beat.
    
    All in all, I think next year's Champion's League might become a very
    exciting one with many quality teams competing in it.
    Let's hope some other team than Milan or Barca can it next year,
    preferably my very own Ajax Amsterdam.
    
    Marcel

    >Maybe Barca was still feeling victorious because of winning the
    >Championship in Spain again.
    
    You might well be right; it wouldn't be the first time a team has
    suffered this sort of psychological block, although it's no excuse for
    such a pitiful display (Barcelona's excellent supporters should ask for
    their travelling expenses to be paid). 
    
    In fact, Milan wrapped the league up last year shortly before the Euro
    Cup Final...and were a pale shadow of themselves in that match. And, in
    England, how many times have we seen a team challenging for the double
    win the F.A. Cup Final only to throw away the league championship a few
    days later? It seems to be a question of mental (rather than physical)
    fatigue.
    
    Dom 

    RE.-1 that was -2
    Hold on a minute, Dom (or was it Don? I'm sorry if I choose the wrong
    letter), I'm not trying to defend Barca!
    
    I wasn't that big a fan of Barca to start with. I think Cruijff is much
    too arrogant. Stoichkov is a pain in everyone's a$$, and I haven't
    liked Romario since he came to play for PSV.
    I wanted Barca to win, cause (usually) they are the attacking team,
    like my team Ajax, and I like Koeman, and think Laudrup is a brilliant
    player.
    
    But in this case, Laudrup didn't play, and Milan played their old way
    of football of attacking, and therefor I am happy Milan won.
    Two wins: Milan played good again, and Cruijff and Stoichkov lost.
    
    And a big score too: 4-0. Long time ago (I guess) that Barca lost that
    big in an European match. Can't wait to see the last three goals.
    Unfortunately, I could only see the first half, because of previous
    made plans.  :(
    
    Marcel

    
    Re-7.256
    
    I once heard Tommy Docherty talking about the quality of the people
    who comment on games.
    He said,"Terry Venables was an excellent player and I respect his
    views on the game."
    He then said,"As for Jimmy Hill,I can honestly say he was one of
    the worst players I have ever seen."
    
    He also said that Mark Wright was the only player he knew to get
    injured on a "Question of Sport".
    
    Davie....8-)
    

>It's now Milan 4 (Massaro 2, Savicavic, Dessaily)
>         Barca 0
>
>Two bad teams. If this is the cream of European soccer, then it's bad. 
 --------------
    
    Milan is a bad team???? Incredible.
    But you are right, Milan is not the cream of the European soccer, Milan
    is the best team in the world.
    
    Pino                          
    

     
    I recall another quote from Tommy Docherty, regarding the press. Asked
    if there was a place for the press in football, he replied:
    
    "There most certainly is...it's just they haven't dug it yet!"
    
    Dom

    
    Did anybody pick up the Corriere dello Sport yesterday...
    
    Towards the end of the paper it listed the top 8 seeds and the other
    16 who will compete in the Champions Cup....My Italian isn't that
    great but there was a obvious exception from the 24 teams...
    
    Bayern Munich...
    
    Could some of you Italian chaps out there with access to the paper
    decipher what the article is on about...it does mention Bayern but
    doeesn't makes sense....
    
    Top 8 seeds were Milan,Ajax,PSG,Barcelona,Spartak Moscow,Manchester
    United, Benfica and Anderlecht.....
    
    Dezzz.  

Is there an Autobiography or Biography of Doc that anybody out there has read
and would recomend ?

Peter

    re: .269
    Marcel, you misunderstood me. I wasn't accusing *you* of making excuses
    for Barcelona - far from it! I was simply pointing out that there can
    be no excuses for a performance like the one given by Barcelona, from a
    team containing players of the calibre of Stoichkov, Koeman, Amor,
    Bakero, Romario, etc.
    
    In fact, I was astonished by one or two previous notes that alluded to
    TWO superb teams. Barcelona *can* play exceptional football, and I'm
    sure they'll be back with a bang next year (I still rate them as the
    top team in Europe, together with Milan), but I seriously think that
    Bristol Rovers would have given Milan a sterner test on Wednesday
    night.
    
    Dezzz - I haven't got a copy of Il Corriere dello Sport (come to think
    of it, how is it that you have one?), so I can't help you there.
    Sometimes the Italians create confusion by referring to "Monaco" (the
    French principality) and "Bayern di Monaco" (Bayern Munich) in the same
    paragraph, but this doesn't seem to be the problem here.
    
    Maybe Bayern are just the unlucky 9th club, in that I don't think their
    credentials for being seeded are superior to any of the other 8 clubs
    you listed (based on recent performances in Europe).
    
    Dom

    Well , Dom....the evening usually takes me to the local Italian rest
    for a quick sniffter on the way home so they usually have one..yeah I
    should have asked the Italian lads...
    
    The list mentioned Rangers in 9th all the way down to 24th as 
    'Danish champions'...and Munich was Munich not Monaco (as I would have
    expected)...
    
    I think its time for a snifter.....
    
    
    Dezzz.

    
    RE: .276
    
    Just to correct a slight mistake:
    
    Monaco is NOT a French Principality, but an independent principality,
    with an independent government and passport, ..... although being 
    embedded in the French territory and having its team ASM playing in
    the French Championship.
    
    PYV
    
    

My paper has just printed the UEFA seedings for the Champiosn League next 
season. For some reason, they only show the first 11 teams . . .

1 Milan		1.861
2 Ajax		1.643
3 Man United	1.632
4 Bayern	1.625
5 Barcelona	1.575
6 Benfica	1.568
7 Spartak Moscow1.471
8 Anderlecht	1.442
9 Paris SG	1.420
10Legia Warsaw	1.40 (assuming they win their Championship)
11 Rangers	1.35

And no, I've no idea what the numbers mean or how they're arrived at.

grahame

    Well this ties in slightly with 7.273....
    
    The first 8 teams will automatically go into the last 16 (4x 4 groups)
    whilst the remaining 16 will play off for that right. So PSG missed out
    for Bayern as per the list I had seen. As far as the numbers are
    concerned..I 'think' it is done on a five year average of performance in
    Europe with 2 points for a win; 1 for a draw and divided by the number
    of games played. Extra points are usually accrued for reaching the QF,
    SF and Final of the competition....
    
    Example: In the Cup winners Cup Arsenal won their first 2 rounds home
    and away. Won and drew their QF and SF matches and won in the Final.
    
       Matches round by round      Extra Pts    Total    Matches    Perf Idx
    (2+2 + 2+2 + 2+1 + 2+1 + 2) +( 1 + 1 + 1)    19        9	      2.111
    
    Most teams don't approach this figure in 1 season let alone averaged
    out over 5....
    
    Anybody with United's five year performance might like to work this one
    out ???
    
    ( I know that the European Cup is/was difficult since the league system
    as points in the league system were multiplied by a factor !)
    
    I'm sure all will be explained in tomorrow's Kicker magazine.
    
    Dezzz. 
    

    Well how did ManU get 1.632?? They won their first round match last
    year but only drew the second round matches.. how can they be seeded in
    3rd place especially when Rangers nearly went all the way in 1992/93??
    
    Rick.

    Dezzz,
    
    >Most teams don't approach this figure in 1 season let alone averaged
    >out over 5....
    
    As this is an average then one good year would produce a high value if
    taken in isolation. However, as it seems likely that most teams will
    not repeat that success year after year the bad years will bring the
    average down.
    
    Paul.
    

    re .282
    
    I don't think many of the teams competing in this years European cup
    have won a European trophy during the last 5 years.  Utd's ECWC win in
    '91 has obviously helped with their overall ranking.
    
    Dave

    Presumably Manu's win in the CWC in '91 is taken into account. However,
    it does look as though occasional, and fairly successful, European
    forays are treated better than consistent qualification in these
    figures. After all, if a team doesn't qualify it's match total isn't
    increasing whilst a team that qualifies every year (as Rangers have)
    must at least win one match before the QF stage to increase their
    average. (eg four matches - W,D and D,L = 4 - divided by 4 matches = 1
    - no increase in average (if my maths are correct)).
    
    However, even though a team qualifies, it may end up reducing it's
    average by losing matches in the earlier rounds. Surely, there should
    be a few points thrown in for qualification itself??
    
    Paul.
    
    
    

    The seedings are not officially announced by EUFA until the 14th June,
    the draw is then made sometime in July.
    
    
    Nev

  If its over 5 years, then can some genius out there tell me why Bayern 
Munich is seeded above Barcelona???? Like Bayern didn't even get into Europe
a few seasons ago while Barca have appeared in two finals winning one of them.

  I reckon the chap at UEFA used the same formula the Swiss use in making
"Appenzeller Cheese"  ie it stinks!!!!!


                                                                  -dave-

    RE.284, I think
    Not many teams won a European Cup?
    How about Barca, Milan and Ajax?
    Ajax won almost all their games when they won the UEFA Cup a few years
    back! As is said before: Barca reached two finals and won 1 of them.
    Milan must have won one the last five years, besides the one this year.
    
    Well, RE.-1, it's not the official seedings list. We'll see.
    
    Marcel

    Like I say ..it was only hypothesis based on how they 'usually' do
    things in UEFA....
    
    Dezzz.

    In The Times it says that the first five seeds are the champions from
    France, Spain, Germeny, Italy and England, presumably not in that order
    (everyone knows Manu should be top seeds - to give them a chance). It
    would appear that UEFA thinks that these leagues must be the most
    difficult to win and their champions must consequently be better teams.
    
    It didn't say what formula would be used to sort out the rest.
    
    Paul.
    

    
    > It would appear that UEFA thinks that these leagues must be the most
    > difficult to win
    
    No.  These are the countries with large populations = large TV
    audiences = lots of advertising revenue making it important that
    these countries have teams in the last eight.  UEFA considered
    it a disaster that Man Utd ( = English TV) didn't make the last
    eight last season. 

     Cynical but correct....
    
    The Sport Bild carried such an article at the time on the demise of 
    United in Turkey and the reduced revenues from not having the English 
    champions in the competition at the later stages.
    
    We may complain about the American TV influence but it is on our own
    doorstep and blooming !!!!.
    
    Dezzz. 

    Where do you think the new Champions league formula comes from?
    
    It's only for TV that teams are now insured to play at least 8 games!
    
    The champions league earns a lot from all European TV and the English one
    was very 'disapointed' last year of MU result's. So we come now to
    this new formula to insure TV to have at least 8 games in case or
    PSG, Milan or Barca disappear after their first game against La
    Valette.

    
    Right, the formula is exactly as I stated a few notes back but as usual
    there is one other factor on top.
    
    If the 'country' average (worked out in the same way) is higher than
    the 'team' has achieved then this figure is taken. So presumably
    Bayern's average comes from Germany's total.
    
    Dezzz.
    
    Compliments of World Soccer June 1994 

    So, having the info from the last reply, can any of you figure out the
    seeded list?
    
    Thanx
    
    Marcel

    
    Marcel,
    	I'll pick up a Corriere or a Kicker in the next few days....I'm
    sure these publications will have them....
    
    Dezzz.

    
    I think Newcastle drew Antwerp 

	Sorry, I didn't catch where the first game takes place...
	
	Cup Winners Cup
	Auxerre		FC Croatia Zagreb

	UEFA Cup
	O. Marseille	O. Pirea (Greece)
	Nantes		Volvograd (Russia)
	Cannes		Ferenbache (Turkey)
	Bordeaux	Lillestroem (Norway)
	
								.Andre.

    Does anyone have the time and patience to put in the full draws ?
    
    Failing that who did Motherwell and Dundee Urd draw.
    
    thanks
    D

	Re .300, this has the correct draw (1st named plays home first)
	
	Cup Winners Cup
	FC Croatia Zagreb  - Auxerre

	UEFA Cup
	O. Pirea (Greece)  - O. Marseille
	Volvograd (Russia) - Nantes
	Cannes		   - Ferenbache (Turkey)
	Bordeaux	   - Lillestroem (Norway)
	
								.Andre.

    re -2;
    
    Motherwell vs Borussia Dortmund
    
    Dundee Utd vs some team from Slovenia (?) 
                  (hopefully nowhere near Latvia/Riga)
    

	re .303

>    Dundee Utd vs some team from Slovenia (?) 
>                  (hopefully nowhere near Latvia/Riga)

	Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia and is bordered by Italy, Austria,
	Croatia and the Adriatic Sea. So - it's nowhere near Latvia and the
	Baltic Sea.

	Tony

    
    
>	Volvograd (Russia) - Nantes
>        ^^^^
    
    IFK Gothenburg's nursery team? There's a town in Russia called
    Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad) where Russia beat Germany in the
    1939-1945 World Cup, after extra time.

    
    
    Athletico Bilbao(sp)....1   Newcastle...0
    
    Athletico through on away goals rule.  ag 3-3.
    
    Latest
    
    Aston Villa..0  hjgdgggguh...0

    
    
    Final score
    
    Aston Villa.....2   Trabzonspor(Turkey)......1
    
    Trabzonspor win on away goals rule,  ag 2-2.

    
    Some team from Germany 5 - 1 French Champions Elect
    
    

    
    Bayer Leverkusen 5 - 1 Nantes......
    
    A demolition job.....
    
    Frankfurt 1-1 Juventus
    Lazio     1-0 Dortmund
    
    
    
    

    Is this just UEFA cup week or are the other ones on too. I ask because
    ESPN are advertising European 'soccer' tomorrow afternoon and i hope
    its not the arse.
    
    regards
    
    andrew.d.wicks

    Andrew,
    
    It is European cups week and if it's tomorrow afternoon then it could
    be the arse (as you so quaintly call them) as they play Auxerre
    tomorrow night. Depends if you are 4/5 hours ahead timewise, really.
    
    Stuart 

    Typical of ITV ... they assume that there is no need to provide
    live coverage of the European Cup games once Utd have been knocked out.
    They don't seem to realise that most people watch these games in the
    *hope* that Utd get knocked out.  Why don't they consider games such as
    Benfica V Milan or Barca V PSG etc to be of interest ?
    
    Dave

    
    	I thought ITV *are* showing Barca V PSG. I could have sworn that I
    spotted it in the Radio Times.
    
    Puzzled of Neasden.
    

    Stuart
    
    We're 5 hours behind GMT at the moment so it's one of the evening games
    tomorrow March 2nd from Europe
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.Wicks

    Malc,
    
    ITV are showing highlights @ 10:40.  I'd prefer to see the whole game
    live.  Anyway, 10:40 is way past my bed-time.
    
    Dave

Those of us in the STV region get to see Barca v PSG live. The rest of you lucky
people get to watch "3 Men & a Little Lady".

The scheduler at STV obviously has some humanity in him/her.

    > The scheduler at STV obviously has some humanity in him/her.
    
    No more like the rest of us suffer because the other regions are
    controlled by sadistic w!@#$#s
    
    Stuart

    
    We watched Barca - PSG live here in France (no surprise I guess), the
    game finished one all.
    
    Good enough game, but the ref. for me was a bit inconsistent.
    
    Ian

    
    .316
    
    	I knew I was right Dave (although you did sow a wee seed of doubt) !
    
    	Yet more positive proof of Scotlands vast superiority over England.
    TV schedulers obviously feel that English football watching types would
    not have appreciated the subtlety of football on display in such a
    prestigious game. Also the fact that neither team was called Manchester
    United would undoubtedly have confused them even further.
    
    	Now if you can just take John Hussey back south the place would be
    like heaven on earth.
    
    Malc.
    
    PS Quite a good game I thought.
    

I'm here until I find a new lover ;-))

Malc,

At least English teams have been known to win the odd game.  At Celtic it's
an odd game when they win :-)))

    
    	I would like to announce to the entire civilised world as we know
    it, that, contrary to the last note, I am NOT John Hussey's lover.
    
    	Much as he would like me to be, I am afraid he is not my type.
    
    Malc.
    
    PS Did I mention (I think I did not) Southend 0 Sunderland 1.
    

    Can anyone post the scores from the other (i.e. apart from Barca v PSG)
    Euro Championship games last night.
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

Euro Cup QF 1st legs went something like

Milan 2 Benfica 0  (simone 2)
Hadjuk Split 0 Ajax 0
Barca 1 PSG 1 (Lama og, Weah)
Bayern 0 Gothenburg 0

    
    I had a choice of watching all 4 quarter finals last night....my
    goodness (I could use stronger words but..) what a load of old rubbish.
    I switched over and watched Southampton v Tottenham Hotspurs. I think I
    came to a conclusion this morning and see what you chaps and chapesses
    think...The FA Cup consistently brings in exciting matches EVERY season
    and the European Cup tends to be ...well a bit boring...
    
    Does the contriving of tournaments via seeding tend to stagnate or
    sterilise the football. OK...with the World Cup becoming such a big
    event (and after all its only for TV that any tournament is contrived!!)
    that the 24 teams that get there should be seeded almost down to the
    Final??!!its a bit much...They've even done that with Milan and Barcelona
    though ironically nobody thought that both would finish second in their
    respective groups.
    
    Best way...all into a hat...its the best way to get shocks, surprises
    and most of all 'decent football'.....
    
     
    	Dezzz.

    
    Another reasonable result for the French.
    
    Some team from London 1 - 1 Auxerre
    
    

    Also:
    
    		Feyenoord 1 Zaragoza 0 (lucky)
    		Sampdoria 0 Porto 1    (looking good)

    
    Parma 1 Odense 0

    Re: .326
    
    Does anyone know who scored the Feijenoord goal ?
    
    Thanks, Grainne.
    

rep -1

Henke Larsson


T_

What this interest in larsson Grainne??? Is it something to do with the
headbands???

    I guess the 2nd legs of all the Euro games are wednesday/thursday this
    week as ESPN is advertising 'Euro Soccer' on Thursday afternoon.
    
    I know who is left in European Cup but who's left in the one that the
    Arse and Chelsea are in?
    
    Regards
    
    Andrew.D.wicks

re .331


UEFA Cup

Juventus - Frankfurt   1:1  3:0
Dortmund - Lazio Rom   0:1  2:0
Odense   - Parma       0:1  0:0
Nantes   - Leverkusen  1:5  0:0


Cupwinners

Chelsea - Bruegge      0:1  2:0
Auxerre - Arsenal      1:1
Saragossa - Feyenoord  0:1
FC Porto - Sampdoria   1:0

Heribert

    Watch.. it will end up being Arsenal vs Chelsea in the next round!
    
    Rick.
    
    

    
    Anyone see Juventus v Frankfurt ???
    
    Awesome 2nd half performance by Juve.....
    
    Hoping for a Juve v Dortmund Final...
    
    Dezzz.

I have seen the game - for my person I think the Italian Clubs are showing
the best football in this year (though I have not agreed with the 
events AC Milan - A.Salzburg.)

Today the only team in Europe which play such a football as the Italians is in
my opinion Ajax Amsterdam. ("I will be afraid" of the discussion of
English,Germans and 
Spanish fans)

Heribert

    Today in the early evening one of the important games in the club
    history of Bayern Muenchen take place:
    
    IFK Goeteborg - Bayern Muenchen
    
    If Bayern win, there will be additional money (5 Mio.DM) for new
    players in the next season, e.g. Hristo Stoitschkov.
    
    markusFCB_hoping_of_a_great_bayern_victory

>I have seen the game - for my person I think the Italian Clubs are showing
>the best football in this year (though I have not agreed with the 

Maybe, but Lazio seemed to be planning on winning on penalties last night - 
and Dortmund gave them exactly what they deserved.

grahame

               <<< Note 7.336 by RTOEU::MBOHNER "FCBsupporter" >>>
                        -< We love the munichs, we do >-

 Moderators,

 Are we allowed to say munichs in this conference?

 Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    why I'am not allowed to say munichs in this conference?
    Are there any special rules?
    
    markusFCB_?_?_?_?

    Ho Ho! This should be interesting...
    
    :^)
    
    barry.
    

    re.338
    
    that was good joke, was it ?
    
    munich rulz !!!
    
    max_always_stay_open_minded_or_what!
    

    
    Well having seen the load of rubbish dealt up in the Gothenberg v
    Muenchen ;-) game it was a joy to see Paris Saint Germain v Barcelona
    at least come out and play football. This match at the Parc de Princes
    was a lovely match to watch. PSG most certainly deserved to win with
    Ginola tearing apart Barcelona's defence with George Weah looking like
    one of the strongest 'center forwards' I've ssen this season.
    
    This Parisian team had players who 'wanted' to take opponents on..next
    stop Milan. I didn't see any of the Benfica game and just edited
    highlights of the Ajax game. The semi-finals should be very interesting
    and should see an Ajax v Milan final according to the bookmakers. I
    hope it is an Ajax v PSG final as these 2 teams look to be the most
    adventurous teams of the 4. Then again there are teams who play well
    and those that do well. Don't discount Bayern...they have a tendency to
    negate other teams' efforts to their own advantage. This might well be
    the case against competition favourites Ajax. Over a two-leg semi and a
    one-off final match, 5-1 against Bayern are not bad odds...
    
    Dezzz.
    
    
    

Todays "fate"

Champions League

Bayern Munich - Ajax Amsterdam  (1st game in Munich)

Paris SG      - AC Milan        (1st game in Paris)

I hope, we'll see in Vienna the final Ajax Amsterdam - PSG, because I think this
are the best teams this year.
A final Ajax - Milan would be sad for the Austrian spectators, because
Austria Salzburg had not much luck in this group and had lost in the last
minutes.

I am fascinated of the young Ajax team, therefore I would like to see  them
in Vienna. Bayern Munich had much luck against Goeteborg, PSG has shown
a great football show (with Barcelona)


CUP-Winners

Arsenal  - Sampdoria

Zaragoza - Chelsea

2 teams of the same town in the semi-final - a new history in EC -
Congratulation to London.
 
UEFA Cup

B.Leverkusen   -  AC Parma

Juventus Turin -  Bor. Dortmund
(I think this could be a great match)

Heribert

    
    Remeber, PSG have ALREADY between Bayern twice in this competition,
    therefore, the quality of the Ajax-Bayern semi must be compared to
    this.
    
    I am going, as I have all season, for PSG to win, beating Ajax in the
    Final...
    
    Ian

    Ok, I must agree, PSG is very, very strong in this season.
    And if Milan won't beaten PSG in the semi, I think PSG will win the
    European Cup 1995.
    
    markusFCB_PSG_is_the_favourite_of_winning_the_cup

Everyone (or most of them) would see an Ajax - Paris final, because
1. PSG had shown a great game against Barcelona and in their group.

The results of PSG:

- Bayern Munich (Home)  2:0
- Moskau                2:1
- Kiew                  2:1
- Kiew (H)              1:0
- Bayern                1:0
- Moskau (H)            4:1
- Barcelona		1:1
- Barcelona (H)		2:1

2. Ajax Amsterdam has shown similar games in their group as PSG and had not
any problem in the quarter final.
 
Bayern Munich has shown no good football in the group with Moskau,Kiew and PSG,
many problems to come to the next round.

In Goeteborg Bayern had much luck in the first half to get not any goal.
Without the foul of the goalkeeper it had been 1:0 for Goeteborg.

Therfeore righteous should be a final:
AJAX AMSTERDAM - PARIS SG

For my person it is equal,which team will win in Vienna, both are top teams and
the Austrian spectators will see a good game.

Heribert

    Chaps,
    
    Don't write off Milan. Their style will be better against the power
    element of PSG than Barcelona and I think that having the first leg in
    Paris will suit the Italians. They will do most of the defending 30-50
    metres from their goal line cutting out the runs and the high balls
    into the area. A lot will depend on ow strongly the referee cuts out
    obstructions, and minor fouls.
    
    Remember that it is not only Milan who have had a poor domestic season
    so neither team should be over confident. My forecast is for 0-0 in
    Paris and 1-0 to AC in Milan.
    
    The good news for PSG is that my forecasts are always wrong.
    
    Whoever wins, it should be a great tie.
    
    Peter

    
    Re:.343
    
    Heribert,
    
    I don't know if you meant 2 teams from the same city in the *same* european
    competition semi-final in the same season,was a first in european history
    but i think Glasgow has the distinction of being the first city to have
    had two of it's teams in european finals in the same season.(1966/67).
    Have any other cities done this ? I think Milan accomplished it a couple of
    years ago ??
    
    Also,would i be correct in saying that Scotland is the only country to
    have two cities which have had two representitives each,that have 
    played in Champions Cup semi-finals ? (Glasgow and Dundee).
    
    Finally,all of you who are wishing for a PSG v Ajax final because of
    the fact that they have been the two most entertaining teams so far,
    i'd just like to point out that this means not a jot.As i'm sure most
    of you will remember the Red Star v Marseilles final of 1990.

I meant 2 teams from the same city in the same (!) EC' semifinal (in this
case CupWinners) is trhe first time in history.

Milan and Glasgow has been different semifinals in the same season, I think.

Heribert

    RE -2, we all remember the 1990 final - the year Marseille won the
    cup - or so everyone thought after they beat Milan in that infamous
    semi-final - a travesty of justice ..
    
    Did my eyes deceive me, or did the Porto match really go to penalties
    after midinight ??
    
    Ray

    Ray
    
    It did go to penalties. Sampdoria won 5-3 (I think).
    
    Rumour control has it that the following changes may be taking place
    for next seasons cup competitions:
    
    1.	Cup Winners Cup to go to League format.
    
    2.	Sudden death extra time for 30 minutes and then penalties.
    
    Perhaps someone can confirm or deny these.
    
    Stuart

    
    PSG 0 - 1 A.C.Milan
    
    Ajax drew 0-0
    
    Ian

Now the final Ajax - Milan in Vienna ? This is hard for Autria Salzburg.

Ajax played with 50 percent (sure,to win at home ?), Bayern played very well
for a "reserve-team" (I am no Bayern fan, but I must congratulate).
The 0:0 could be dangerous for Ajax - think of Goeteborg's game in Munich.

Heribert

    The 0:0 could be VERY dangerous for Ajax.....
    
    The Bayern defence was superb. I didn't see Litmanen and Kanu.
    Schupp and Babbel played excellent.
    
    Now we have a big chance to reach the final. If Bayern score only one
    goal in Amsterdam than we'll play in Vienna.
    
    markusFCB_happy_about_this_performance 

    
    Milan's goal was superb...this is what makes them a cut above the rest.
    Play an ordinary season, play very ordinary in Europe..just enough to
    qualify for the quarter-finals..Bang bang..looking at the final.
    
    I must admit, Bayern did very well to hold out against Ajax who
    dominated the game. Bayern may actully fluke it with an away goal.
    
    Dezzz.  

    Sorry.....
    
    Did I have .....in my eyes or so ? I saw the Bayern-Ajax game and saw a
    team that tried hard but was hardly dangerious ( Bayern) and one team
    who played very very bad for its normal play ( Ajax). It was a boring
    game, with hardly chances ( Ajax 3, Bayern no real one), one yellow
    card ( for a non-foul), two not-given penalties ( for Ajax) and for the
    rest a lot of mistakes. So I think the draw was not more as the result
    of this. All that crap in the newspapers of poor Bayern missing so much
    good players was, as expected, very exagerated. Ajax is not in its best
    shape the last weeks and you could see that. And even then Bayern
    couldn't make a goal for own audience.....
    Over two weeks will be the decision. I hope Ajax will reagain its
    strength and make a goal or two. A team that only won twice in the
    Champions League doesn't deserve to be in the final. But that is
    football, the one who makes the last goal, wins....and germans are very
    good in that....even when they play for another team, right mr Kohler ?
    Next to that I don't believe that PSG is out already. They could take
    care for a very nice surprise in Milan.
    We'll see in two weeks, I'll be there ! ( und dann ziehen wir die
    Bayern die Lederhose aus.....;-)
    
    John

    
    Anyone know the score of the Dortmund V Juventus game last night...?
    
    Dave...

    
    Juventus 2 Dortmund 1
    
    Juve play Parma in the final
    
    
    Brian

Aren't Juve playing Parma in the Italian Cup Final as well?  They're going
to be sick of the sight of each other by the seasons end.

It also means the winner won't play in the UEFA Cup next year as Juve are
almost certain to win the League putting Parma in the Cup Winner's Cup
whatever happens.

Borrussia Dortmund - Juventus Turin    1:2 (1:2)		First:   2:2

0:1 Porrini (7.)
1:1 Cesar   (10.)
1:2 R. Baggio (31.)

A great game of both teams, Juventus with a little bit more luck winner
of this event.
Roberto Baggio's 2:1 a dream free-kick. (From 25 meters in the left "Kreuzecke"
(cross-edge ?? I don't think).

Very fair match, with less fouls.
Dortmund without Moeller and Riedle.


AC Parma - Bayer Leverkusen	     3:0 (1:0)		First: 	 1:2

1:0 Asprilla (4.)
2:0 Asprilla (55.)
3:0 Zola (67.)

The great mistakes of Leverkusen's libero Bernd Schuster.


Final:

AC PARMA   -   JUVENTUS TURIN

3.5. Parma
17.5. Turin


The same match in the Italian cup final.
Italian Championshipm:  1. Juventus, 2. Parma


Congratulation to the Italians.

Heribert

    Ajax - Bayern Munchen	5-2 !
    
    What a game....a pity Ajax didn't score more ! Finally they got
    rewarded for their great football. On the other hand the weakness of
    Ajax was shown too ; on the moment it's 4-1 they started to go slower
    and almost lost their grip of the game. I hope they keep concentrted in
    the Final against Milan. And please don't come up with bayern had no
    good players-stuff. They have beaten Dortmund last saturday and
    Frankfurt the week before !
    
    Milan - PSG		2-0
    What a goal from Savisevic, watch him, Ajax !
    
    John 

    UEFA Cup, 1st leg:
    
    Parma 1  		  Juventus 0
    =========             ===========
    D. Baggio, 4 mins
    
    A pretty dour, niggly game - six players booked, five of whom will miss
    the return. Juventus had a totally makeshift defence (no Kohler,
    Ferrara, Porrini, Conte, Torricelli) but still came through relatively
    unscathed. Great pass by Zola for the goal.
    
    Everything still to play for.

    On what date is the Champions Cup final being played?...
    
    tomorrow night?...
    
    Ray?...

    
    
    
      The 24th may I think........

    
    Yeah, but don't miss the Juve v Parma game tomorrow....a titanic
    struggle ...
    
    Dezzz.

24.May 1995  20:30  Vienna

    re: .369
    >Yeah, but don't miss the Juve v Parma game tomorrow....a titanic
    >struggle ...
    
    I'm afraid Dezz was all too prophetic in his use of the word "struggle"
    - this was more like rollerball than football. How the Belgian referee
    refrained from using his red card is anyone's guess. Possibly the
    niggliest game I've ever seen - these two teams do *not* like each
    other ;-)
    
    Take your pick from shirt-pulling, high tackles, bodychecking,
    eye-poking, stamping, players refusing to help opponents up, players
    kicking the ball away at free-kicks...you name it. The worst culprits
    were probably Vialli, Ravanelli, Asprilla, Crippa, Minotti and
    Couto...but it could easily have finished up as a 7-a-side game. And
    every challenge was greeted by 4 or 5 players imploring the referee to
    show a card. Asprilla was hit by a coin thrown by Juventus supporters
    as the Parma players ran to salute their fans, and suffered a nasty
    gash. 
    
    Pity, because some of the football was quite good when it was actually
    allowed to flow.
    
    Dom
    
    
    

    
    	And the score?

    
    The score was 1-1.
    
    Vialli for Juve and Baggio equalising for Parma.
    
    Parma win 2-1 on aggregate.
    
    Choppers

    
    
    Ooops...sorry about that - I guess the legalised war left more of an
    impression on me than the scoreline ;-) Btw, wasn't the game shown in
    the UK?
    
    Anyway, the score was 1-1, so Parma win the trophy 2-1 on aggregate.
    Juventus scored after about half an hour (a cracking volley from
    Vialli) to make the scores level on aggregate. They then dominated for
    most of the match, but failed to put their chances away. Dino Baggio
    equalised with a header midway through the second half, and that away
    goal meant a real uphill struggle for Juventus. 
    
    The best players on the field, IMO, were Di Chiara (Parma) and
    Torricelli (Juventus). In fact, the two were involved in an interesting
    little charade towards the end: Di Chiara went down with cramp and
    asked Torricelli, who was the nearest player, to help him flex his leg
    muscles (oo er, missus). Torricelli bluntly refused and another Parma
    player had to come and do the honours ;-)
    
    And these two sides still have to play each other 3 more times this
    year...yummee!
    
    Dom
                  

    what a goal by Vialli....a real net-buster....have the Italians voted
    for their player of the year yet?...Vialli gets my vote....
    
    Ray....

    Now you mention it, Ray, I don't think the Italians have any sort of
    player of the year award. 
    
    Pretty funny really, when you think that every newspaper awards marks
    out of ten for each player/referee/linesmen in every game, plus
    corners, bookings, shots on goal, etc. (As an aside, they even list
    which players are drawn out of the hat to give urine samples for the
    anti-doping analysis after each match!)
    
    Dom

    
    A very niggly game...more acting than was showing on the screens at
    Cannes. Ravanelli opened Act 1 Scene 1 with such a performance that Tom
    Hanks would be hard pushed to better. This continued on and actually
    became annoying that the referee wasn't doing anything. Vialli
    committed something similar to Roy Keane's challange a few week's ago
    with a stamping episode that didn't get even a warning.
    
    	Anyway to the football...Juve had a hatful of chances but the miss
    that took the biscuit was an open goal for Parma where the player
    completely missed the crossed ball. I can see why the Italians are
    after Shearer, Ince and Colleymore.
    
    RAIUNO may take another few visits to before the summer is upon us...
    
    Dezzz.  
                                       

    Re .376
    
    	Dom,
    	  Are you sure that there's no voting (either by fellow players or
    "experts") for players of the year and such like? The reason being I
    thought I saw one of the dodgy programmes that we get say that Massaro
    was player of the year last year, at round about the time the "off to
    Japan" rumours started. Also, I had thought that someone or other voted
    each year for the best non-Italian player playing in Serie A (recent
    winners may have been Jugovic in his first year, then Winter after
    that). Then again, this might all be a load of nonsense. In which case,
    could you tell me what the weather's been like this week in Milan? My
    Mammy's there for a weeks holiday. 
    
    	Cheers,
    	     John A.

    
    First things first, John - I rather fear your Mum's going to be in a
    foul mood when she gets back home; it's been one of the wettest Mays in
    recent memory! Then again, you don't come to Milan for sun & sand - I
    presume she must be more of a culture freak (The Last Supper, Milan
    Cathedral, the Sforza Castle, etc.)
    
    You might well be right about player-of-the-year awards here. However,
    they don't appear to get nearly the same publicity as the equivalent in
    Britain. I know of a trophy that goes to the top goalscorer in Serie A
    (almost certainly Batistuta this year), and there are competitions run
    by newspapers and TV channels, but I haven't come across anything as
    prestigious (if that's the right word) as the Footballer of the Year or
    Players' Player of the Year awards, involving gala evenings attended en
    masse by players in disgusting suits ;-)
    
    Strange, because the Italians do love their pomp and ceremony...
    
    Dom
    
    

    
    
    	And disgusting suits :-)
    
    
    Ian.

    
    	Dom,
          She's actually visiting an old school mate so they probably won't
    cross the door at least until the duty free fags and gin are walloped.
    
    	Back to the football (should we be in the Italian league topic?). I
    noticed in the paper that AC Milan were beaten at home by Napoli (don't
    tell me Rincon finally managed to score again) the other night. Did Milan
    have a weak team out with a view to next weeks game? Bit worrying for
    them if they didn't (esp. after Ajax's demolition of Feynoord).
    
    	Cheers,
    	     John A.
                    

Juventus must regret selling Dino Baggio to Parma last summer - he scored in
both legs of the UEFA cup final. Why did they sell him - a very good player,
a stalwart of the national side, and with an excellent workrate (unlike his
name sake)?

Curious

-Steve

    
    Ajax 1  Milan 0
    
    Didnt see the game, although listened to it on the radio, good to see
    the dominance of Milan in Europe eneded by a young team, with the
    emphasis on attacking football. The Ajax manager made his intentions
    clear by bringing on two attackers during normal time.
    
    The most stupid comment of the night award goes to Mike Ingam, the
    Radio 5 commentator, who just before Ajax were to be presented with
    the Cup said " there's no doubt about it, Ajax are going to be a real
    threat to Blackburn in next season's European Cup "........I nearly
    crashed into the car in front of me, I was laughing so much, lets face
    it, Blackburn have got to prove they can beat the Albanian bakers 11
    before they can start thinking about the likes of Ajax.
    
    Dave...
    
     

    Read in this mornings press that Ajax will have to qualify for the
    Champions League because Blackburn are seeded due to Arsenal efforts
    over the last couple of years as the only English team in Europe. Are
    the reports correct?

    
    re -1
    
    probably not...
    
    Choppers

    Ajax - AC Milan  1-0 !
    To be honest, we only hoped it would happen but who would expect that
    we take the Cup after all. Especially in the first half Milan was the
    better team, and deregulated the play of Ajax. You could see it at the
    disconnecting lines in the Ajax play. Next to that I wondered why
    Overmars got yellow after the 'flies' from Panucci and the nasty fouls
    from Maldini on George..... And why did the ref stop Litmanen in the
    first minute for a foul but did agree the karate-kick ( what a replay
    from Ajax-trainer van Gaal, by the way....) from Desailly.....For the
    one or the other reason you cannot be sportive in this League......
    Second half, especially by replacing Seedorf and bringing Kanu you
    could see that Ajax was taken over. The danger of the Milan forwards
    stayed but you felt that they had not the power from before....Taking
    out Litmanen was a unbelievable bet of van Gaal, but in the end it
    appeared to be the right one. Litmanen didn't get in his play and next
    to that the mother of Kluivert had adviced van Gaal to let her boy play
    in the end so that he could make the winning goal ! And so he did.
    Later he said he couldn't play any ball after that moment, just
    realising what he just had done. Good that he hadn't score earlier....
    Not the best game of Ajax, some players were really out, but in the end
    only one thing counts....the Cup. I think it was the experience, that
    these young players don't have yet, but that will bring them through
    next time for making a great game. Great example for them was 
    Frank Rijkaard, one of the Dutch greatest footballers ever, 
    who stopped every Milan attack in the end !
    Hopefully this team will stay together for some years, so that we will
    have some fresh, sportive fantastic football for the future !
    And thank God that nice attacking football has won in the end !!!!
    
    Thanks Ajax, for this great season,
    
    John
    
    PS Unfortunately did some @#$&*( read worse then idiots) the most
    stupid you can do after this lovely victory. They went to the Amsterdam
    center, were the atmosphere was great yesterday evening ( and today
    when the team arrives !) to plunder stores or demolish things ! I only
    can react with great anger on this......this has nothing to do with
    football ! Yech.......

re seeding.

I believe that if Milan had won, then Ajax would have had to qualify. However,
as champions they automatically go into the Champions league.


I really enjoyed the game. Although there were few chances, there didn't seem to
be that stagnant play that has dominated the final so many times over the last
10-15 years or so.

In the first half Milan looked like they were going to walk it, after weathering
the initial 10-15 minutes of pressure, and Simone was so unlucky with that
superb volley just before the break.

The second half started like the first, with Ajax putting on the pressure,
however, unlike the first half, the pressure lasted for 45 minutes. Not a
classic goal to win the cup, but they all count, and it was thoroughly deserved.
It was good to see Frank Rijkaard involved in the move, a great performance to
cap off one of the great careers of recent times.

Congrats to Ajax.

Al

    
    
     Not a classic game but interesting none the less. Ajax certainly
    deserved to win and with such a young team could be a great team in
    years to come as long as they can keep their players.
    
     One thing that really pissed me off was the behaviour of some of
    the Milan players, Panucci in particular. He's one of the best
    defenders in world football and last night he proved to be one of the
    best divers in football. Also, after every tackle on him, he was waving
    his hand at the ref, indicating that the opponent should be booked.
    I've noticed a lot of players doing it in Italian football this season.
    Maybe in future the ref's should book them for trying to run the game.
    
     Danny.
    
    ps Had a laugh at the Ajax coach doing an Eric Cantona following the
    high-kicking incident in the first half. He nearly fell on his arse
    which would have been quite embarrassing.

    >Panucci in particular. He's one of the best defenders in world football
    
    Hmmm, debatable...
    
    >...and last night he proved to be one of the best divers in football.
    
    Ah, that's more like it! I quite agree, I'm dying for a referee to book
    a player for trying to "run the game" as you say; Panucci was already
    gesturing before he'd even got up.
    
    I'm afraid I found it a bit of bore last night _ it looked to me like
    22 players trying desperately not to make a mistake, rather than
    actually win the game. Milan certainly put up a better showing than
    they did in the two earlier matches against Ajax, and may just have
    been worth a draw on the night. However, Ajax certainly deserve the
    trophy for the way they've played over the season (the Champions League
    started back in September, remember).
    
    Oh, and full marks to a team that a) concentrate on attacking football,
    and b) still manage to stay at the top despite having to rebuild
    practically every year (the post-match interviews with Italian TV
    basically went like this: "Congratulations, Kluivert, when do you think
    you'll be ready to come and play in Italy?"..."Overmars, do you see a
    future for yourself with a top Italian side?", etc.).
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Very distressing to see the influence of Eric Cantona on the
    touchline behaviour of Dutch coaches ;-)

    
    Question : Since Ajax won both the League in Holland, and the Champions
    Cup, will Holland have a second team in the Champions League next year?
    
    Ian

    re -1,-2
    Because of the bad performances of the other dutch teams (PSV and
    Vitesse) only Ajax, Feijenoord ( just won the Cup) and Roda can play
    European. PSV has to qualify in August for European football.....
    And even Ajax had if they had lost......
    It has all to do with results and...money.....:-(
    
    John

    re-1 Ajax -fans never made problems this year during their matches. And
    because Milan is seen many years as a 'semi-dutch' team ( van Basten,
    Gullit and Rijkaard) and because the Milan-fans were so sportive this
    year in Milan to applaud and sing for Rijkaard after the match I
    expected this. But as I said before, there are always some stupids who
    misuse the situation wednesday night. When only about twenty of them
    were molesting things on the Leidseplein there was no police available
    (where the nearest police station is 100 meters away from Leidseplein).
    Later, when everything was quite suddenly police appeared and the hell
    started again......if they wouldn't have been so late the damage would
    have been less.........
    Yes, Austria was not defeated by Ajax in the League but I think that
    Ajax would have played differently in a KO system in the Vienna
    match.......who knows......
    Yesterday Ajax came home in Amsterdam and it was one big party with no
    problems at all. It was crazy, the team was cheered at the Museumsquare
    by at least 200.000 fans. After that there was a canal-cruise with
    screaming, crying, cheering, singing and even swimming fans......No
    fights, no problems just great !!!!!!
    Middlepoint of all ; Mother Kluivert who whispered the golden advice to
    van Gaal............And van Gaal once more showed his
    Cantona-imitation... Other middlepoint ; Frank Rijkaard who probably
    stops definetely after the sundaymatch against Twente. 
    Hope for us that all the other players will stay..........
    
    John