Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    
    Mick,
    
    This is from a woman who is involved with a Noncustodial Dad.  I want
    to give you my view becuase I have been on the outside looking in.
    
    With respect to holidays.  Unless you both spend your holidays within
    an hours driving distance of each other don't split the day up.  It
    really disrupts not only your child, but it disrupts the family 
    celebrations going on.  The way my SO does it is to alternate holidays.
    Sure you will miss some Christmas' with your son, but it is so
    much better than the stress of having to have him leave one family
    function only to attend another.  
    
    
    My SO and his ex have recently been able to try to work on
    becoming friends.  It has taken them over three years since the
    original split for them to do this.  So by all means try to
    do it, but it will take alot of time.
    
    I know this isn't much ,but it really helps to see it from
    as many perspectives as you can.  I would if you could also
    try to hear from grandparents/aunts&uncles/brothers/sisters
    of folks in similar situations.  They too would be able to
    give you more insight especially on the holidays thing.
    
    Good luck,
    Michele

re:                       <<< Note 156.0 by JENEVR::PAIGE >>>
                   -< Calm after the storm or just the eye >-

    Mick...
    
    I'll include pieces from your note and give you just one man's opinion
    on some of the things you wrote:
    
    
<Its been only about 6 months since
<it all started and the fighting was like verbal hand to hand
<combat. We dragged everyone into the fracas relatives, friends even
<old enemies. It was literally quite brutal and mean on both sides
<much to the dismay of our child. 
    
    Anger is one way we have of justifying our actions.  If you can be
    angry enough at your ex, then you can do anything and it'll be
    justified, including breaking up the marriage.  So, when our marriages
    fail, for whatever reason, we often look for reasons to be angry.  They
    are easy to find.  One of the divorce books (self-help) I read while
    going through this expained that in every divorce one of the spouses is
    the "divorce-seeker".  This is the person who "want" the divorce more
    than the other.  (Both, may actually want it, but, even then, one is
    still more aggressive about it than the other).  Often, this divorce
    seeker is the one who also exhibits the most anger as a means of
    rationalizing.  We all got/get angry enough to subject ourselves and
    others to the agony of divorce.  Then we seek refuge in others, even
    our children sometimes, to support our anger and find comfort.  It's
    difficult to seek refuge in a friend without dragging that friend into
    the muck.
    
    <Together we still have embers that
<can ignite at any time and are now being phony about having a calm
<relationship.
    
    You will for a long time.  And one of you will hang onto your anger or
    hurt for longer than the other.  Especially when children get involved.
    But, since blatant, constant anger is non-productive, (and unhealthy)
    we "pretend" a "normal" relationship.  When my ex and I were getting
    divorced, she often pretended we were "friends".  Unfortunately, her
    view of what "friends" were was considerably different from my own.  I
    wanted to be "civil".  She wanted to "date" me.  Even now, after
    several years, her "civility" towards me (and, I suppose, mine towards
    her) are like a switch... turning on and off when expedient.  It's a
    yo-yo sort of relationship, and very uncomfortable for me.
    
    < But on one level we have come to one agreement that the cost of hearings
<create long term debt and not very productive with our eight year old son. So 
<we are communicating a lot around just what is his best interests are and 
<trying to figure out how to serve them.
    
    If the debt you refer to is financial, you will definetly overcome it
    and the results may be worth the cost.  But, if the cost you refer to
    is the emotional well-being of yourselves and/or your son, then watch
    out that that cost doesn't exceed the benefits received.  
    
    You should always communicate.  But, often you won't.  After all, if
    communication were your strong suit, you probably wouldn't be getting a
    divorce.  But, always try.  Especially where it concerns your son.  And
    NEVER, NEVER, NEVER place the child between the two of you.  By that I
    mean, do not ever try to leverage your position by "using" your son. 
    Don't ever make him "take sides".  But, try to be open and honest with
    each other and with him.
    
<I have asked my wife to go to joint counseling with only specific agendas
<such as Christmas. She has temp custody with the emphasis on temp.

    My divorce decree said something like "I shall have custody of xxx
    child/ren at whatever times we agree upon".  I allowed that, at my ex's
    request.  It was a BAD mistake.
    
    Make sure your divorce decree, if it says anything at all like what
    mine does, ALSO lays out SPECIFIC DATES for visitation AT YOUR
    DOMICILE, and specifically requires the CP to deliver the NCP (or his
    representative) for the specified times, and ON time!  In Texas, the
    specified times are roughly this:  42 days EVERY SUMMER.  Every OTHER
    weekend.  ONE WEEK out of every Christmas holiday.  Every other
    Thanksgiving holiday.  Every other spring break.  Stuff like that. 
    HAve it spelled out explicitly.  
    
    Why?  Because, even though you both THINK you would never play the
    child against the other, there MAY (may=probably) come a time.... you
    just never know.  
    
<Some things I would ask you dealing with the ex and child. I told my wife
<I would show her the replies. So if you have a message for her that would be
<great too.

    You will always have a relationship with your ex.  I *wish* I could
    have truly divorced my ex.  To have her completely gone from my life. 
    Severed.  Kaput!  OUT altogether.  But, I can't.  Never will.  Neither
    will you.  So, at this time, or that time, you will have to confront
    her with child-related issues (school, church, health, etc.) and you
    need to each be on your best behaviour at those times.  That's hard,
    because the CP has a big tendency to play GOD for the child and since
    she/he is in a controlling role (no matter what your divorce decree
    says, the CP is in control!) can easily manipulate the child and
    through that child can manipulate/hurt/control the NCP.  It takes a
    very mature, well-adjusted, and strong CP to avoid the temptations.
    
<Holidays 
<specific experiences like half days at each house, recreating them on different
<dates, splitting them up, what works what doesn't.

    What ever days/times you decide, try to avoid the 'sugar daddy'
    syndrome.  Many NCP dads will try to 'buy' the affection, and this
    causes many problems.  It's not NORMAL to visit, but make it as normal
    as you can.  Try to create the same sort of solid, consistent,
    disciplined environment in your home as he has in her home.  And treat
    your ex with respect in his presence.  you may not like her.  you may
    even HATE her, but you should show her the sort of respect you expect
    your son to display.  Divorce is the end of your marriage.  it is not
    the end of your parenthood.
    
<Cooperation.
< Does it make sense to rebuild a relationship simply because we're parents,
<can it happen. 

    Not likely.  Though some do.  My ex changed a lot right after I sued
    for divorce.  I asked my counsellor if it was possible for a mature
    person to change that much.  He said "yes", if there was sufficient
    shock to her.  And my divorce action might be such a shock.  But, less
    than nine months (yes, I stayed on...) after, she was back in her old
    role... and this time I didn't return.  So, I'd say a return to your
    "old" ways is extremely unlikely.  ALSO... NEVER stay for the sake of
    the child.  I'd already heard that countless times, yet i did anyway. 
    BIG mistake... it just caused everyong to suffer that much longer.  
    
<I know there aren't any clean answers, but my reason is find ways of making
<the truce last so the we can each get on with our live rather then play
<mail tag via our lawyers. Any help is appreciated.
<
    
    hope this is a little help.... remember, as one noter's personal name
    says:  free advice is worth every cent!
    
    
    tony







    

   Nice stuff, Tony!

    HELLO MICK
    
    First,  Make sure that you have good lawyer.  Generally good lawyers
    will firts cousel you to woork out your problems and not get a divorce. 
    He then explains the minimum obligations shou you not be the custodial
    parent.  If he is really good and you are not influencedd into seeking
    a reconciliation he will explaion that the getting of a divorce is a
    BUSINESS and you should follow his advice.  He is correct and you
    should listen to him and let him do all of the dirty work of getting
    you out of the marriage.  Hee is a hired h<nd and he has no emotional
    ties nor is he in need of empty victories.
    
    I found that the lawyers will keep the children in proper perspective
    because that is a national uniform code which specifies minimum
    standards for the children which bot parents must  observe. 
    Additionally your lawyer if he/she is good will protect you from making
    a bad deal.
    
    I found that you need to find out what is it that you want and go after
    it with every fiber in you body.  Do not negotiate unless you are
    willing to live by the outcome.  If you have no roadmap to what you
    want any road will take you where you are going.
    
    In my case I did not mind my ex wife having the children. I did not
    want the furniture nor would I argue about the child support.  My
    lawyer stated that I was wise beyond my years.  He also stated that I
    could do some things to make my life better.
    
    In exchange for 66% of the profits on the house I paid no Allimony
    In exchange for a promise to pay a set amount for 13 years on a weekly
    basis I have no increases built into the agreement.( my income has gone
    up 31 thousand dollars in 4 years and all of it is in my pocket, yet
    she was able to get a mortgage with my promissory note and her salary.)
    In exchange for not fighting over custody I have unlimited visitation
    and acces to the children.  I was also able to negotiate a minimum 4
    week visit with my parents during school vacation.
    In exchange for paying off the family debt I received rights to all of
    my stock in excess of two hundrend thousand dollars and we agreed that
    the Childrens education expenses will be split 66% me and 34% my ex
    wife.
    
    In addition we did not have to kill each other emotionally.  Even today
    when thinhgs get heavy between us, I always say that I will get in
    touch with my attorney and she will threaten to get in touch with hers.
    But I find that a 40 dollars per 1/4 hour it is too expensevie to tie
    up a lawyer unnecessarily.  It stops qw lot of arguments an yet brings
    our attitudes to check..........Over time you will heal and go on with
    your life but you will heal a lot quicker if you have a good
    lawyeer
    

		I have strong feelings on the subject. Yes, go to joint
	counseling, with the focus on yourself and joint issues, not on
	the other person. If you both agree on that not hurting your child,
	then you have a place to start. The better the two of you can learn
	to communicate and coooperate, the better for the children. No amount of
	definition in a divorce decree will solve future issues with the 
	child. I don't believe this can be done effectively without outside
	help, i.e. counseling. Children can be very manioulative and will
	play mind games with the parents raising the anger if they don't
	communicate. Also, the counselor can ease issue's that can seem 
	major by simply letting the two of you know that something the
	child is doing is simply par for the course in a divorce, etc, etc.
		Also, be patient! This process takes time. Rushing to get
	the divorce finalized is a big a mistake, if your both willing to
	deal joint counseling, Counselor's are a lot cheaper and the results
	much better than two lawyer's can be. Rmember, the legal system
	is an advisarial system and the more the fighting the more both
	lawyers make. Again, it takes time, dealing with issues is painful
	and takes time to make progress.
		The child will force you to always have a relationship, however
	bad or good. The better the relationship the better your child will fare,
	and the better each of you will fare. Getting even or "winning" is
	only apprrpriate as a last last resort. If you both "win" by working
	thorugh the issues then your child will win-BIG TIME! Remember
	the chld feels the pain of both parents and loves both parents.
	It takes an awful lot to beat love out of a child.
		

re: .4 & .5

After reading Mick's note and your replies, there is some good advice but one
get's the feeling in .4 that your blowing sun shine up someone's ass. True, one
should not rush into a divorce without understanding what the consequences are
and then you also have a chance to reconcile using counselors.

In .4 your separation/divorce is one of the very few that work out as well as it
has. I am glad that it has, but let's get real here with a couple of points.

Good lawyers are not easy to find, this can be a just as tough process to find
one as it is to get divorced. You make it sound like there are a dime a dozen
out there just waiting to look after your best interests. A good number are more
interested in getting all the bucks they can and dump you when your broke and
still get nothing to show for it. Look around the note's file here, there are
some good examples of how to get fleeced and having nothing to show for it but
debits.

Another point that the lawyer will look after your child's best interest and
ensure you don't get into a bad deal. ***What a pile of crap!*** Lawyers will
doing anything you ask them too, even if it means a bad deal for you. I have
seem to many bad deals to believe what your saying. In your case you both may
have come out even, but in the real world, these are not regular outcomes. A
lawyer will not stick their neck out to far to avoid being sued if something
goes wrong.


I may get flamed for some of my comments above, but let's look at the real world
here, some of us were not as lucky to have come out smelling roses. Not all the
blame can be put on the lawyer, but when your new to the game of divorce, we
make mistakes like any other human being. My second lawyer is exactly who I
should have had when it all started vs. the first lawyer only sucked me dry and
left me with a bad deal to live with.

The best advice one can give Mick if reconciliation is not possible, is be
**VERY** careful who you hire as your lawyer. A freebe interview does not tell
you the whole story, anyone can blow sun shine up your butt and make things look
good. Ask other people who have used someone in your area, see how they felt
about the job done. This is worth more than some freebe consultation.

I apologize if the above has offended anyone, but I just do not see the world
in black and white. If I sound bitter, maybe I am ............but that too is
reality.

	.re .4 and .6

		I also point out that much of the pain comes from feared
	and real financial hardship. With enough money these issues lessen.
	How much stock do you have in excess of $200,000???? 
		Also, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal the
	other day about a man who traded of present assets to be totally
	free of future obligations. It was a great deal until his salary
	went from $180K/year to $30K in the wall street shake out. His
	ex is in great shape-he's in deep stuff.

       Hi Mick,

       .0> Holidays

           I agree with the woman who said don't split the day.  My ex's
       relatives live in one neighboring state and mine live in another
       neighboring state. A few paragraphs down is part of a letter that
       I sent to my lawyer as a request on visitation.  The "system"
       added some exactness to what days the Thanksgiving and Christmas
       vacations start and end, but everything there was ordered.

       .0> Cooperation

       The acrimony in my divorce started the day she realized I was
       serious, and never ended.  This was/is NOT good.  She asked for
       and got: Custody, child support, alimony, all of the furniture,
       and all of the stocks.  I got my car and my cloths.  The court
       ordered the house sold, because there was a lot of equity in it,
       and it was the only way the lawyers were going to get paid.  Now,
       think about that!  With the bickering in my divorce, the three
       lawyers took home a total of more than $35,000.  If you can find
       a way to be reasonable with each other, DO IT.  In my case, the
       lawyers did nothing to end the fighting because it all translated
       to billable hours.


       Good Luck,
       Richard

       PS  After a year of living with his mother, my son chose to live
           with me.  My ex and I went in to court on the issue this past
           summer, WITHOUT lawyers, and changed custody.

      


                   Visitation Request

       1) Every other weekend from Friday after school to Monday morning
	  when class starts.  This would include extra days on long
	  weekends.  Specifically after school ends because I want him to
          take the school bus to my apartment or I want to pick him up 
          at school.       

       2) Every Thursday from the close of school to Friday morning when
	  class starts.

       3) Every other school vacation example: 
	      Vacation      Odd Year  Even Year
	      ------------  --------  --------
              February wk   Richard   Jane
              April wk      Jane      Richard
              Christmas wk  Richard   Jane

       4) Every other holiday each year, for example:

	      Holiday        Odd Year  Even Year
	      ------------   --------  --------
	      New Years      Richard   Jane
              ML King Day    Jane      Richard
              Presidents Day Richard   Jane
              Memorial Day   Jane      Richard
              Independence   Richard   Jane
	      Labor Day      Jane      Richard
              Columbus Day   Richard   Jane
	      Veterans Day   Jane      Richard
	      Thanksgiving   Richard   Jane
	      Christmas      Jane      Richard
              

       5) Four weeks during the summer, two weeks and two weeks.

       6) My birthday (Nov. 13)
          Father's Day
          (Jane gets him on Mother's day and her birthday)

       7) His birthday (Mar. 20) on even years.

    I think that you missed the point not whether I lost or won.  I did not
    win and I did not lose I got to an agreement thAT I COULD LIVE WITH. 
    It cost me plenty.  but the primary thing  is it left me whole and left
    the children taken care of.  It did not allow for the children to be
    used as weapons one way are the other.  Also after twenty years of
    marriage I did not want to win  I wanted out.. with as little damage to
    the children as possible.  I did not state but should have my ex and I
    spent two years in joint counselling and she finally walked out.  Th
    cousellor asked ea<ch of us if it was over, it was.  and that is when
    the good lawyer came from.  By the way you seldom find a good lawyer by
    looking in the phone book.  I found mine through my cousellor, my
    regular lawyer and through references from friends.  Then I interviewed
    them until I found a layer with whom I had a comfort level.
    
    As for the divorce turning out roses, my ex had an equally good and
    expensive lawyer. who worked to insure that her needs of security while
    raising the children were met.  That was the genius behind the
    agreement that we were able to work out.
    
    at 160 dollars an hour it was necessary to keep arguments to a minimum.
    And since no one won are lost we both have no need to keep fighting
    over the past.  I know that what I presented sounds stranger that truth
    bu it can be done if yiou want to estasblish yourself and get on with
    your life while protecting the childredns welfare.  I believe that
    divirce is a very difficult step and should not be enterred int lightly 
    but go into with the expressed need to make an agreement not to contest
    for contentions sake.  If a judge has to make the decree from a
    contested trial you can be certain that instead of a livable agreement
    you will have a hell of a mess since someone loses and someone wins..
    This makes it certain that the lawyers will ultimately have more work
    and that you and your ex will never be totally civil.  And almost
    always the children will be caught in the middle.
    
    I though the originator wanted to get advice on how to have a liveable
    divorce and the children protected??  Well I related my story, one
    which worked and one I presented as an example..

re: .9,

I do agree with you that dollars and cents are not the key factor when it comes
to your children's life after divorce. As a parent we all have the
responsibility to ensure the child best interests are looked after and truly
can happen if both parents are reasonable people. In your case it seems like you
are one of the luck few to have achieved this.

In my case, I had to deal with an ex who does not know what the word fair and
reasonable means. I did ensure my son would be comfortable in life after
divorce. My ex being the controlling and greedy person she is, does not even
realize the sacrifice I made to guarantee my son's life style. All she worries
about is dollars and cents and material possessions. I feel sorry for her in
that these things seems far more important to her than other aspects of life
such as children, family, friends and spouse.

I may have to live out of the back of my car (so to speak), but I do have the
love of my son, family and friends. These are worth more than what dollars and
cents could ever buy.

John

Thanks for all the replies. I find it very helpful to get perspectives
from different sides. I too am trying hard to maintain a comparable
life style for my son and without any help from the ex financially or 
otherwise who by the way has custody. I have found that I am the
catalyst for the fighting by reacting to her, if I don't react 
there is no fighting. I now look at the situation like a 12 step 
recovery kind of thing. Since I can't control her thinking I wont
try to reason with it, but just except it with an "ok yea sure"
and that seems to be keeping the peace. But at a cost, here my son is 
observing two people he loves giving each other only lip service
and seemingly forgetting the horrible things we've done to each other.
with out any values being learned or really dealt with.
 I remember my parents would fight and be silent for a while and the 
silence was deafening as it must now be to him.
Mick