Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    
    
    Paula,
    
    You write about Michael's problem, but that is HIS problem.
    What any here can help you with is your problem which is unclear.
    How is this affecting you?  What prompted you to write this
    note?
    
    Steve
    
    

    
    Re: .2
    
    Paula,
    
    I haven't any doubt that it is tough for you, but without a
    clear explanation from you of exactly what it is like for YOU
    in this situation it's only speculation to offer some suggestions.
    
    Why is it hard for you to deal with his ex?  Why are you getting
    involved directly or are you?  Is she directing some of her
    behavior etc. directly at you?  Is she somehow making it impossible
    for you to leave this between her and Michael?  Or perhaps is
    Michael bringing you into this directly?  Unless I'm missing something,
    you've told us so far what it's like for Michael.  How do YOU feel?
    What, specifically, is frustrating YOU?
    
    Steve
    

    I am involved in another dialoge in this notesfile, but I have some
    questions about visitation "rights"
    
    I have joint conservatorship... my ex has custody (somewhere else in
    this notefile I've actually copied the verbage from my decree).. 
    
    
    so, here's the problem.  my kids live 2100 miles away.  I can't afford
    to jump in an airplane every few weeks/months and go to Texas to visit
    them.  And she "says" the kids are free to come to me, yet they won't
    because they "don't want to"... yet my son cries for his father. 
    What's happening is that she is actually interfering by manipulating
    their feelings about me... and I am absolutely positive that they fear
    if they DO agree to come, she will construe that to mean they prefer me
    to her, or are taking MY side when , of course, they have to be on HER
    side to survive living with her.
    
    so much for being able to be with own children whenever I want to.  
    
    has ANYONE any experience with the court in a similar circumstance
    actually FORCING the CP to SEND the kids to the NCP in order to provide
    visitation?  And has anyone ever heard of requiring the CP to share in
    any of the resultant costs?  (if i'm dreaming, I might as well dream
    BIG!)
    
    Is there any way at all that I can make it happen (get my kids to come
    here?)
    
    tony

    If your "current" visitation orders does not have a clause stating
    that you can see the children other that at the specific times stated,
    then (in my non-professional openion) you probably cannot charge her
    with contempt.  Just because the orders state specific times does not
    mean that it cannot *also* contain a "whenever agreed upon" clause.
    
    If you are still in the "temporary orders" stage and you haven't
    gotten permanent orders, you should keep trying and DOCUMENTING
    the time that you try.  If you can stablish the fact that she IS
    trying to alienate you from the children ( by not being cooperative
    at all) then the Judge may not look too kindly on that when 
    "permanent orders" time comes.
    
    fred();

re: .5,

Nice thought, but shooting the ex would be too nice.

I too have one of those wonderful clauses tossed in my separation agreement
that's not worth the paper it was printed on. On second thought, shoot the
lawyer for allowing such vague verbiage in the first place.

Since my ex likes playing games and using the wording to what ever possible
legal means she can to make things difficult, I have been working on clear and
concise term and conditions via the divorce petition (or I should say
counter-petition, since I am contesting the divorce on the grounds that the
existing access is not acceptable).

It will cover various aspects of access around who, what, where and when. At
that point, the wording will be clear and concise and put an end to the crap. I
find as your reviewing the draft T's & C's, you have to put your self into her
shoes and see if you can be screw the system some how and if so reword it.

General wording is not good, leaves too many loop holes for the ex to make
things difficult. Under these kinds of conditions, wording is 'so important' to
protect not only your rights, but those of your children too.

John

    Now, obviously I can't advocate violence in this notes file but, you
    might get lucky and she'll have a seriously debilitating accident in
    which case she really won't be able to take care of the kids and of
    course you will be more than willing to take over.  You might even be
    forced into taking care of her.  Did you hear the story of the woman
    who got rid of her husband by putting magnesium in his food until the
    build up in his body killed him.
    
    Remember, no violence though!!
    
    

re .8

>    Now, obviously I can't advocate violence in this notes file but, you
>    might get lucky and she'll have a seriously debilitating accident in
>    which case she really won't be able to take care of the kids and of
>    course you will be more than willing to take over.  You might even be

Of course you realize, since she'll be debilitated, she'll seek more support so
the kids will now have a live in keeper. <grin> When you win, you loose, when
you loose, you loose.

******************************

Further to my note in .7, the lawyer had sent me a draft minutes of settlement
for the divorce counter-petition yesterday. Wow, talk about verbiage to cover
access for my son. This to replace the existing paragraph which is about half a
page and not worth the paper it was written on.  The new clear and concise
access term and conditions are 6 full pages! Most of the content was provided by
me self and the rest was the lawyers. Many of the items were ideas from this
very notes file and problem others or my self have encountered over time.

This has cost me a couple of grand to have done, but it should put the end to
my ex's game playing. Again, clear and concise access terms and conditions are a
must to avoid problems now or later if your ex is an unreasonable person to deal
with. The existing vague wording in force now, has proven to be totally useless.

    >but it should put the end to my ex's game playing.
    
    Never! Not in your life will a gamer ever stop playing games. The last
    game played is with St. Peter, as in which direction she is headed..
    The games have just begun and your going to be one of the contestants.
    Vana White will not spin the wheel either. She is replaced with the
    judge, lawyers, etc. When your son becomes of age the games will slow
    down some. Or if she plays Russian roulette, and looses. The best you
    can wish for is that you die in your sleep. I have seen too much of
    this for too long. And the dads get shafted time and time agian for it.
    
    

re: .10,

George,

I don't know if I would totally agree with you here. The game playing may
continue on in areas not covered by clear an concise language, an god we all
know too well that we cannot think of everything. If we could, our access terms
and conditions would look like a Bible.

At least the ex cannot screw me out of access without putting her self into
contempt which I can do something about. Vague langauge leaves the door wide
open to all sorts of sh*t which you cannot do anything about.

I think the main point to all this is, the games may go on, but it makes it
harder for the ex to do so without putting one self into contempt when it comes
to access. This can only happen when clear and concise lanuage is used and
spells out the rules.

John

    John,
    
    	Well my friend. I gotta tell you a not so known secret then. :)
    My ex, sweet as she can try to be, is the biggest player ever known to
    man kind. This morning, I recieved the child suport, and got shorted a
    whole dollar. Yes, who cares over a dollar. There is lots of other
    little things that she is ingaged in and I have to shut my mouth till
    she hangs herself good. I am watching, waiting, and watching some more. 
    
    Anyone know where I can get a long rope, find a tall tree, and a
    skidish pony? :^)

George,

There may be other little games they may play, but as long as I have my son when
expected, she can play all she wants. Like you say George, sooner or later, they
will hang them selves good and so you move in for the kill.

The dollar thing is pretty petty, but, if you ignore it and say nothing, the
game play gets ticked. Soon, it's another and another dollar until, the skittish
pony bolts and hangs the ex. It is only a matter of time....

John

George,

Another thought, by having clear and concise language around access, only
enhances your weapon tool kit.

John

    There haven't been many responses to this particular note recently, but
    the issues remain.  I have a generally written visitation schedule
    which says that I can see my daughter at all "reasonable times upon
    reasonable notice, including hoidays, weekends, overnights, portions of
    school and summer vacations, etc".  The problem is that since my
    divorce was final (11 months ago), all such requests have been refused. 
    I see my daughter every Sunday (overnight) and for a couple of hours
    one evening per week.  All requests for more than that have been shot
    down.
    
    We filed a contempt motion last fall - that resulted in the witch
    firing lawyer number 2 (she already canned the 1st one for not telling
    her that she should get everything and I should be sent to jail for
    divorcing her).  Since then, I have loads of documentation based on all
    the refused requests.  We need to get back into court.
    
    The problem is that (among other things) she treats our daughter as a
    possession which she can loan out as she pleases.  My lawyer and I
    agree that a more specific agreement is needed since her discretion has
    been nothing but poor.  Her anger is driving everything (with any luck
    it'll drive her to another planet).
    
    I live in Mass - any thoughts?
    
    Thanks - Mike

    Keep up the fight, try to eventually do it on your own. Thus saving you
    the money and making her come to the bargining table fast. You want to
    have the money and resources. And when money gets tight in the game,
    you need to write your own. And YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SEE YOUR
    DAUGHTER. She is not Exclusively mom's nor dad's. She is on loan to you
    from God, for the next 18 years. And this must/should be convaid to the
    opposing camp via what ever legal means necessary. 
    
    You should make it alt holidays, and certainly summer vacations are not
    unreasonable. 
    
    

    
    
    re Mike,

    About the only thing you can do at this point is keep pushing to get
    this into court.  Even if you don't win, you've served notice that
    you won't put up with this.  Problem is if you don't win, then she
    is going to be even more convinced that she can act with impunity.
    Then you will have to collect a new set of evidence and haul her back
    into court again as soon as possible.  Keep hammering her until the 
    judge finally gets tired of her, or she gets tired of getting hauled
    into court.  

    Problem with this is that lawyers are expensive.  You may have to 
    learn to file the papers yourself as George said.  What got me
    started doing this myself is that I ran out of money otherwise.
    I figured if I went in as my own lawyer and lost, then I wasn't any
    worse off than I was if I didn't try.  She finally got the message
    when the judge threw her in jail for the second time.  

    One word of warning--make sure you "child support" is paid up.  Even if
    you have to forego the lawyer and pay the child support, and then be
    your own lawyer.  Even thought they say that the issues are totally
    separate, that's the first thing you'll be asked.  And yes, if it's the
    other way around, you'll get nailed.  Welcome to "fairness".

    fred()

    Mike,
    
    I am writing a federal court apeal, the guys in DC. I have lots of
    research to do. I have been at it for a while now. I have a suit
    against my GAL. He claims that he is imune from lidigation because he
    is court oppointed. The courts have not said either way on that yet.
    
    My daughter was molested in the care of her mother by her self admitted
    child molesting beau. As fred say, it can be the best way to go, for
    its the least expensive. It would cost me countless $$$$$$$$$$$$ to
    hire an attorney. I have a few years to put it together. I am going
    to hang this guy out. For he Had knowenly, put my daughter in danger
    after repeted calls and letters from me. I knew of his sorted past well
    before my ex moved in with him. My Ex knew of his sorted past as well.
    
    

    Thanks a lot for your help.  I've faithfully paid every cent of
    support, since my lawyer said he wants us to look perfect in front of
    the judge.  He's good at what he does, and fortunately he's an old
    college friend from years ago, so the money issue is somewhat tempered.
    
    Anyway, we're plugging along.  The ex is not only saying no to all my
    requests, she's beginning to take away what little time we had.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Mike

    When she does this, she shoots herself in the foot. And if your
    attorney is worth the salt. You will get a better chance for better
    visitation. Just be careful that she doesnt bolt. Mine did once. No fun
    looking for your kid in some other state. I found them three weeks
    later. Still It aged me, and I lost lots of weight over it. Something I
    could stand to do, but not that way;}
    

    
    One suggestion would be to have your lawyer make the request for
    visitation.  Then he would also have record of her non-compliance.
    If she then fails to comply, then have your lawyer ask for a 
    "Directed Order".  Basically a direct order from the Judge saying,
    "hand over the kids and comply with the court orders or else".
    These are generally easy to get as the judge looks like he is not
    willing to uphold the court orders if he fails to issue this order.
    If she then fails to comply, the judge is then really in a spot if he
    fails to back up his own direct orders.  
    
    fred();

    To back up Fred. Actually go to the ex's abode to pick up the child
    during your normal court ordered visitations. And take with you someone
    else to witness the violations with a cammera or a cam-corder. Then do
    the three "D's" of the game, document, document and then document all
    of the above. 

    HI Mike,

    The only advice I can give is to keep documenting everything.  If
    she claims you didn't pay child support and it's documented you did,
    for instance, then it won't look good for her in court.  Keep a log
    of who, what, when, etc of every time you talk to her, pick up the
    daughter, drop her off, etc.   Yes, it's a pain, but if you do that
    properly, then you should be able to nail her to the wall in court
    every time.
    
    Keep your chin up and keep after her until you make a believer out of
    her that if she keeps interfering with your _daughter's_ rights then
    you will hammer her _every_ time.  Yes, lawyer's are expensive unless
    you  can learn to file the papers, etc, yourself.  They're expensive
    for her too if she wants to keep up the b.s.  By now you should have
    plenty of paperwork to use as examples.  It's a matter of priorities.

    fred()

    Mike,
    That is two weeks of unterupted visitation. Asin, say like she decides
    to take the kids to DisneyLand. And she is gone for two weeks. And your
    visitation is during this time. Welp. You get a shot at it on the other
    side. Asin, you take the kids to Canada to visit the priminister. Hey!
    Its a go. Its the way. Mine has yet to take a vacation with her
    daughter after 4 years. And she goes off on a two week vacation every
    year. Must be nice. I rather take em with my daughter!:)
    
    Peace
    

    
    
    	I recommend insisting every order and every stipulation is as
    detailed as possible.  Don't leave the b***h any room for
    interpretation.  This may seem unreasonable, but experience has
    proven it necessary (for me anyway)  After FIVE years of being
    apart, my ex STILL resists my every effort to communicate with
    and otherwise be a good dad.  BUT my persistance is beginning to
    pay off.  She is running out of reasons and excuses and ALL the
    lawyers involved can now see through her facade!
    
    	I also recommend budgeting 70% to your lawyer 30% GAL
    Despite reported experiences (mine included) I can't think of
    anything more satisfying than my recent court appearance.  Where,
    There were 3 woman lawyers  (mine,hers and the GAL)  telling
    my ex to wise-up.....the Judge wasn't any nicer!
    
    	One trick anyone here might want to watch for is the old
    "uninsured medicals" double-dipping scam.
    
    	Where:  the ex sends you (me) a bill for these and adds up all of
    the actual receipt, the cancelled check AND precsiption itself....
    
    		Well that's tripple dipping but my ex is a dip anyway....
    
    Stick with it!!!!
                                                    

    I wonder when this will be considered child abuse.. Just like non
    payment of child support. Many good men pay their support faithfully,
    take a bad rap, and never see their kids again.
    
    

    One "silver lining" to the "deadbeat dads" issue is that one big
    drawback to the NCP hauling the CP in on contempt used to be the 
    counter-threat of the CP trying to up the anti on child support
    in retaliation.  With the NCP already being soaked to the limit,
    he may as well go for it.

    Learn to collect the proper evidence,  document everything, then
    haul the CP in for contempt.  You may not win everything the first
    time, or the second, or event the third, but eventually the judge
    will get tired of seeing the CP or the CP will get tired of paying
    a lawyer in order to stay out of jail.
    
    fred();

    ...and if you can learn to write your own motions it becomes more cost
    effictive. As in, you write em, on your pc, or your local system. NCP
    winds up spending a lotta loot for defending herself.:) Hence, the
    $1.99 bamboo rocket therom.:)
    
    

    Mike,
    
    Did she state that this was a vacation? I would be careful. If she says
    so, that she can get away with it. If she doesn't state it as such,
    then you have a better part of a leg to stand on. Find out, don't guess
    it out! Get her to commit it in writing as such, or not.

    
    re .31 Mike.

    If you are right, then you can make the confrontation work to your
    benefit.  Number 1, as George said,  Make sure there are not loopholes
    for her to use.

    If you go, take a friend to video tape the whole thing from the car.
    Otherwise  she can claim just about anything and it's your word against
    hers. Start off with a shot of the front page of a current newspaper
    to date the video.  What's real fun is if she doesn't know it's being
    taped, gives you a boatload of bilge, then you play the video in 
    court.  If nothing else, if you have a real good friend to take along
    as an observer who will go into court to testify what happens.

    What got my ex in trouble was I specifically told her, "you are in
    violation of the court orders".  Her response was, "I don't care,
    they won't do anything".  Proved that she was deliberately in 
    contempt of the court orders.  Judge threw her in jail.

    Document every conversation with her.  Immediately write down what
    was said by whom as soon as possible after the conversation.  If
    possible, tape record the conversation.  Under federal law it is 
    legal to record conversations if at one party to the conversation
    knows it's being recorded.  Some sate laws are more restrictive,
    so check it out first.

    fred()

    A therom of the bamboo rocket. 
    
    Both sides will engage into a warfare of lawyers, words, and economics.
    Just as large nation states fight over tribal and communial property. 
    As the Nam war might have taught anyone something. That is, its not the
    size of the dog. Its the size of the fight in the dog. And because,
    Mike, your a man, you have lost from the beginning. You have nothing
    else to loose. 
    
    Most will try to engage in a dollar for dollar battle. And because your
    a man, you can by the most expensive laywer in the state, and she the
    worse. And she has a better chance of winning. But, as you write your
    own, motions. She will still be engaging in a large, F111 type of
    attack. And you... can loose them in the jungles of the game. 
    
    Peace
    

    
    One thing to remember if you decide to be your own lawyer.  Make sure
    you have a legitimate case.  If the judge thinks your case is 
    "frivolous" he can order you to pay expenses for your ex.  If he 
    thinks you are just trying to harass your ex, he can make life very
    uncomfortable.  I'm not trying to scare anybody off, just a warning
    to make sure what you're doing is for the right reasons and can be
    backed up with evidence. (Document, Document, Document).

    fred();

    Ditto fred!! Forgot that part. And the right reasons are always whats
    in the best interest of the kid(s). Never yourself. There is allot of
    humble pie eating in the game. I have had many pies.:)
    
     

    re: last two replies...Does this only apply if one represents one's
    self? It looks like I'll be going for my first (and hopefully last)
    decree modification. The ex is moving with the boys (7 and9) 30 minutes
    away; currently, and at the time of the original decree they're 5 
    minutes away. As they "visit" me two days during the week (Tues/Thur)
    from 5:00-7:00 I've asked the ex if she would drive the boys to my 
    place on these days and I would drive them back. 50/50, right? Wrong!!!
    She's forcing me to take legal action (which I can't afford) and
    threatens that I'll be responsible for any and all legal bills which
    she may incur. Is this true??? 
    
        While I'm at it, another question: If I proceed to have the
    Visitation part of the decree modified will I be openiong myself up
    for a modification of the $upport agreement. The decree was written
    three years ago and situations have changed i.e., she remarried, I've
    had a raise or two, etc... 
    
         And another thing...any recommendations of an attorney with a
    knack for these things - I'm in the Leominster/Fitchburg (MA) area.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeff (DTN 264-3362)

    If you go into court room by yourself, you have a better chance of the
    poverty issue than if you show up with a high powered laywer, packing a
    6 gun.:)
    
    If the decree says extra expences are 50/50 than your golden, but
    remember that the ex is going to wrap this issue in a flag tighter than
    spandix or lacra...good luck!
    
    On issue #2, she has to file the papers, make the effort, etc. If you
    have not recieved a raise in the years hence, and she has recieved her
    cost of living increase, your chances are still pretty good. There is,
    in the state of NH a minimum level of money you can keep to stay alive.
    I think you can keep up to $400.00 living expence... right... Going to
    live high on the hog on that!! So, when can we expect to hear that you
    will be purchacing a new bass boat on a $400.00 per month living
    expence?:) 
    
    Peace
    

re: .37
	I'm not sure if I understand but it sounds like you see your
kids twice a week for two hours, a total of 4 hours per week.   Now,
because of a change in your kids's home, you will have to drive an
extract hour for each visit.   Is this correct ?
	The judge might look at this and notice that your ex is
responsible for most of the care for the kids, feeding, clothing,
driving them to little league, getting them to Dr's, providing shelter
and being sure they are safe 24 hrs/day except for the four hours you
take them.   Asking you to do a little extra driving because she has
found a better place for the kids to live may not sound unreasonable.
My guess is the judge will think you are wasting his time.

	If you want to reduce your driving time, since you only have
them for a couple of hours, why not drive to the ex's, take them to
the closest McDonald's for dinner and then return them.   Another
way to reduce your driving would be to take them all day Saturday
instead of two dinner hours.   Would give you time to take them to
a museum, or go for a hike.

	Another way of looking at this is to consider, how much will
it cost you to hire a lawyer to go to court.  How much extra gas will
it cost you to drive the extra 25 minutes to the kids new home.  My
guess is that even if you win, it will take a long time to recoup your
legal expenses.


.37                                           If I proceed to have the
.37    Visitation part of the decree modified will I be openiong myself up
.37    for a modification of the $upport agreement.

	Either party in a child support case can go back to court at
ANY time and ask for an adjustment.   So the answer is yes.

    Last -.2, Thanks for the input. Sounds like your opinion(s) is that I
    should bite the bullet on this one. I didn't mention I also get the 
    boys every other weekend, alternating holidays, and see them many
    additional hours via sports, etc. (little league, youth hockey,
    dekhockey). That's another issue I'm constantly battling the ex over - 
    she'd rather them not be so involved/active, I'd rather them to be
    busy and participative; as long as their grades don't suffer. 
            
           About taking them to McDonald's in the area every Tuesday and
    Thursday...don't you think that will get old (and expensive) real fast?
    The other option is for me to move closer to their new place, which I 
    am contemplating. The problem with that is it will increase my commute 
    to work considerably...can't win. 
    
           Anyway, thanks for responding folks. I don't write here too
    often but I do harness a lot of valuable info by reading from time 
    to time. It's a great resource.
    
    Jeff
    
        I probably will not end up going to court over this, as I'm sure
    there will come a time when far more important issues will need to be
    addressed in that manner. 

    Jeff,
    
    Moving closer is probably a very wise idea. Major reason is that when
    the kids get older to peddle to see you, they can, and your an easy
    access to them. So, in time, the could easly say to the courts when the
    become of age to make decisions, of say...12/13, can move in with you.
    Remember that as they get older they become sometimes, alittle harder
    to handle. They can become testy, independent,....;) So, there is hope
    for you, cause their mom may not want to put up with such stuff.:)
    
    

    George,
    
       Thanks for the positive slant. Makes sense. Sometimes I don't look
    nearly as far down the road as I should. As with most NCP's, my
    ultimate interest is to have the boys with me full-time - if and when
    they wish. I just don't want distance to hinder the quality time we
    have now, creating any form of alienation. 
    
    Jeff

    Best thing, Jeff, is always think of down the road. And when you feel
    anger for all of the above. Find positive ways to take it out. Walk,
    join a gym, etc. Focus much of the anger into constructive things. I
    know how frustrating things can be. And sometimes, how hopeless the
    seem to be. I guess, I can pass on to you this, and that I was once
    told that if your on the south pole, and the boys mom moves to the
    north pole, you have to believe they still are a part of you. They
    still belong to you just as much as they do to her. And that the boys
    are not exclusively moms nor dads. They are on loan to US from God
    Almighty for the next 18 years of their life. Then the belong to
    someone else, their future SO, or them selves. 
    
    Peace 
    
    if you wish to write me off line, please feel free.:)
    
    

    
    I agree that the battle may cost more than the gain to be had.  If you
    do go back to court, you might want to up the anti a bit and request
    a longer visitation time since much if the time is now taken up by
    travel time as well as asking that she foot half the travel time/cost.

    She may well agree to one or the other.  I think that a judge may be
    a lot more agreeable offsetting the travel with extra time than to 
    making her pay half expenses.  She may agree to pay expenses to keep
    you from having more time.  Myself, I'd rather have the extra time if
    I had to make a choice.

    fred();