Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I would try to be as supportive as I could if a friend disclosed to me
    tht he had been raped.  If such a thing would happen to me, I'm not
    really sure how I would react, but I suspect I wouldn't want to talk
    about it much, especially with other guys.
    
    Mike

    I believe that men who have been raped feel much more guilty about it
    than women who have been raped. Feel much more demeaned, much more
    worthless than their female comrades.
    Why do you ask
    

    Herb,
    
    She explained why in the first paragraph, she noticed the topic
    in Soapbox and thought a serious discussion could be held in this
    file.
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    Not only can I conceive of it, I've lived it.
    
    Next question?  Those nimrods in Soapbox are beyond believe.........
    
        GJD

    why do you want a serious discussion about men getting raped?

    I think she wants a serious discussion about men getting raped, to try
    to get men to have some understanding of how women feel when they have
    been raped, and more generally to get some sense of what it is like to
    be subordinated. 
    I don't think it will work.

    Do you always have conversations with yourself like that, Herb? 
    
    :-)
    
    
    Mike

    
    Sorry Herb, there was ABSOLUTELY NO HIDDEN AGENDA here.
    
    I saw the topic in Soapbox and it was getting trashed in a major way.
    I've always thought it was a shame how little sympathy men get from
    other men when they're raped, and how infrequently its discussed... as
    if it doesn't happen. I figured the topic stood a better chance of
    serious discussion in MENNOTES than in SOAPBOX, and sience I wanted to
    hear the answers, I took the responsibility of reposting it with my own
    wording.
    
    It did not even occur to me to link men getting raped with women
    getting raped when I decided to do this...
    
    But now that you mention it... shall I subvert the topic into a
    feminazi plea for understanding from the mynfolks?

    it's a shame that you take humbrage against one of the few people who
    I think will be willing to give you an honest answer.

    You think you are the only one who gave an honest answer here?
    
    Mike

    you can't read english or something?
    you don't know the difference between few and only?

    you don't know the difference between "will be willing"  and has
    already written?

    Herb,
    
    I felt you attacked her motives without cause, which contributed to
    her repling as she did, but I don't think that 'take umbrage' was
    a good description. She just went into her reasons in more detail
    and perhaps with some indignation.
    
    Can we maybe, please, get back on the topic?
    
    Bonnie

    And how the hell you contort .6 into an attack is totally beyond me.

    Never mind, Herb.  Go back to your game.

    
    
    I think the issue is, as was debated in soapbox, that some men feel
    that it is impossible for a man to be an unwilling participant in a
    "sexual act".  That is wrong on many counts.
    
    First, as has been pointed out "da Box", rape does not necessarily
    equate to penetration by a penis.  It can be penetration (unwilling) by
    an inanimate object such as a dildo (or worse).  Second, it IS possible
    for a man to get an erection, though unwilling.  Many men become erect
    when their prostate (I spelled it correctly this time!) is massaged,
    even if that massage is forced upon them.  It's simply a biological
    respose, not really a sexual response.  At that point, the woman CAN
    force penetration.
    
    Rape may be mainly a man-raping-woman thing, but certainly not
    exclusively.
    
       Greg

    My reaction is that, before today, I never thought a man could be
    raped, other than the jail-house sodomy that is quasi-legendary. It
    seems extremely unlikely to me still, even if it is physically
    possible, that a woman can or would rape a man through a form of
    conventional intercourse. I never considered inanimate objects up the
    rectum a form of rape, but I guess that it is, according to the
    definition.
    
    How would I react? I would probably listen sympathetically, then point
    him in the direction of a rape counseling service, or therapist
    specializing in rape or molestation, who would be far more capable than
    I of giving him some real help. I would let him know that I support him
    but that I have limited knowledge to offer, but am always available to
    talk, and listen.
    
    I imagine that the feelings of violation and powerlessness would be
    identical regardless of sex of the victim, and such a therapist could
    deal best with the situation.
    
    Committing suicide over the rape or dying fighting the rapist are real
    macho words; suicide admits the aggressors have won, dying in the fight
    is conventional military hyperbole, to me. I'm not surprised by the
    guy's answer. I'm not sure that I believe those words.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Welcome to the hypersensitive 90s.
    
    Everything sexual between men and women is rape.
    
    Just ask Andrea Dworkin.
    
    
    Oddly enough, she doesn't make the same claims about lesbian sex.

    re .18
    
    Mike,
    I would really like to see the responses in here stick to the subject
    and the attacks on the feminist agenda left out.  I feel that this is
    an important topic and one that has been swept under the rug and
    ignored for too long.  I'd like to see some honest discussion happen
    without agendas being tossed around.
    
    Karen

G'day

Back to the subject in hand ....

Tricky one.  I wonder if, were a friend of yours raped,
you *could* persuade them to visit a counsellor.  I'm
led to believe that quite a few women don't report the
rape, for various reasons.  Would, therefore, a man wish
to put himnself through the humiliation of recounting
the experience to a stranger?

If I were raped (please, God, don't let it happen) I would
definately feel uncomfortable about telling anyone other
than a very very close friend (only one springs to mind).
I don't know if I could deal with all the questions, such
as did I lead them on, did I deserve to be raped, etc.

Logic tells me that counselling would be good, so would
reporting the rape to the police.  My self-esteem and
ego and pride nags me and makes me think that I may just
shut up and tell no-one and try and deal with the 
horrific experience on my own.

...Lee

>I never thought a man could be
>    raped, other than the jail-house sodomy that is quasi-legendary.

 Quasi-legendary? As in, it happens but only very rarely? Do you really
believe such a thing? Having spoken with prison guards and people who
have spent time in jail, I believe that you are MASSIVELY underestimating
the prevalence of rape in prison.

 The judge who sentenced a young punk who had attacked the girl next door
and her boyfriend with a .22 (he shot the boyfriend in the arm while they were
parking in one of my favorite spots) remarked that after spending a year
in the "big house," they were going to have to buy him a "new <anus>."
This is in NH, where the big house is relatively mild and sedate.

 As far as men being raped goes, you people have underdeveloped imaginations.
First of all, sexual assault (the crime of rape) is defined as nonconsensual
sexual contact, acts, or activity. A man who holds a womans hands above her
head and fondles her breasts against her will is guilty of sexual assault.
Penetration is not required for sexual assault (though it does in many cases
increase the degree of the assault and severity of the penalty.) A man
forcing a woman to engage in oral sex is sexual assault. By the same token,
a woman forcing a man to do the same is also sexual assault.

 If you are inclined to believe that only penile penetration constitutes
"real" rape, then it is still possible. It has been said that between 50 and
75% of men have an involuntary erection when foreign objects are inserted into
their rectum by the combination of prostate pressure and pressure on the blood
vessel that drains the penis (the same vessel which an overly inflated bladder
tends to constrict.) Given an involuntary erection, even the least imaginative
can construct a scenario in which female-male rape occurs. I would venture to
say that this is the least prevalent form of female-male sexual assault.

 As far as how I'd react to a male friend telling me he'd been raped, I'd
be as suppportive as possible. If it happened to me I don't know what
I'd do, but I suspect I would be extremely reluctant to tell anyone.

    re .18
    
    geeeez, mike. 
    what's with the left-field-knee-jerk?
    

    This topic is about men being raped
    Men being raped by other men, men being raped by women, even to stretch
    things about children raping men.
    This topic is not about children being raped
    This topic is not about young teenagers (legal minors) being
    raped.
    Any man who thinks it is impossible to get an erection unless he WANTS
    to have an erection is just plain kidding himself. An erection is one
    of the most _involuntary_ reactions a man can have. Males have much,
    much stronger negative reactions to the possibility of homosexual
    involvement than do women. For many men, it is the possibility of
    enjoyment of a homosexual act, that is so terribly terribly frightening.
    Many would much rather forget/repress the homosexual activity they
    engaged in as young teenagers.

 >Quasi-legendary? As in, it happens but only very rarely?
    
    Nope, quasi meaning in "some sense or degree" legendary as "well-known 
    or famous"
    
    I wonder if the highest incidence of male rape would be male children
    being molested by other men. Are there even stats on male rape?
    
    

    Stats on male rape?  If there are any, I shouldn't think they are
    terribly comprehensive. 
    
    Mike

    <I wonder if the highest incidence of male rape would be male children
    <being molested by other men. 
    A study has been done by a physician (I think in Georgia). His
    information is that the average nr of boys molested by men who are in
    prison for sexual abuse is 262 (or so)

    <are there even stats on male rape>
    I have never heard of any statistics that dealt specifically with the
    kinds of sexual activities that we might typically think of as rape of
    a male child.
    There are lots of statistics about child abuse however. These statistics
    wander all of the lot. Some frequently used statistics are that about 1
    boy in 5 has been 'sexually abused' before 18, (and that about 1 girl in
    3 has been 'sexually abused' before 18.) 
    The definition of sexual abuse that is typically used includes acts
    that fall far short of rape in any kind of technical sense whatsoever. 

    			herb

    A hetro male can only be raped by gay/bi males, and somtimes women. A
    hetro male will not rape another male, if you don't buy this, then let
    us discuss how many women are raped by gay/bi men.
    
    
    That is where the fear of a raped victum being classified gay comes
    from.
    
    
    		Wayne 

    I opine that bisexual men are quite capable of raping women. 
    
    Mike

    Wayne
    
    In prisions, men who self identify as heterosexual and who are
    exclusively hetersexual out side of prison, will rape other men. 
    In general, such men are not considered to be homosexual.
    
    Bonnie

    >That is where the fear of a raped victum being classified gay comes
    >from.
    
    I agree, and it seems completely illogical that a rape victim becomes
    'gay' because of a forced violation of his body, so this fear is not
    a rational one. There is a lot of this fear among men, traditionally,
    about being classified by other men a certain way.
    
    I also wonder if what happens in prisons is men being temporarily gay
    because that is the only outlet for their sexual drive, and that they
    go back to being heterosexual upon release.
    
    
                                                                 

    
    re .28
    
    Wayne, I have tremendous problems with your statement. The only way I
    can reconcile it is that I sense that there may be a lot more men out
    there who are bi than anyone realizes.
    
    The reason why I feel that way is because I believe (I can't *know*)
    that rape offers an incredible power trip/high for the rapist. And for
    a very angry/twisted man, subjugating another, weaker man and
    humiliating him thoroughly may offer an unparalleled feeling of power.
    I sense that there is probably nothing more humiliating in the world to
    a man than being raped. The rapist could EASILY fantasize that he was
    raping a woman, especially if, in his mind, he idea of a woman was
    anyone whom he could dominate and screw.
    
    I also think that while many, many hetero males are absolutely repulsed
    by the idea of playing receptor to anal sex, some of those same males
    may not have the same views if they're doing the penetrating.
    
    Now maybe we have to redefine all of these men as bisexual... I'm not
    sure that the study has been done yet, but I think there will be a lot
    more of them than you think.

    No man, who is cabable of a normal erection, can prevent an orgasm if
    he is properly secured and an act of fellatio is perpetrated upon him.
    
    Whether the fellater is a man or a woman is irrelevant. 
    I believe men know that and it scares us.

    
    
    Re:  a couple back
    
    A person isn't "temporarily gay".  You either ARE or ARE NOT gay.  
    
    And, by the way, (in my opinion) it isn't the sexual acts one performs
    that necessarily determines whether they are gay or not.  I know LOTS
    of gay men who for years exclusively dated women and had active sex
    lives with them.  These same men KNEW they were gay, describe that sex
    as not being very fullfilling, and chose to hide their gayness.
    
    The "sex" that occurs in prison, though between members of the same sex
    is not, in my way of describing things, taking place between gay men. 
    Nor, probably is the "insertor" necessarily gay.  The sex that take
    place in prisons is typically more of a power-game than a "sex game".
    
       GJD

    re .30 .32


    		I know form where I speak, you don't. You both are trying to
    create reality for what you believe, not from what you know. My older
    brother spent his youth and most of his adult years in prison, I know
    what I am talking about. Prison will confuse all who enter, but all
    rape of men does not occur there. Outside of prison, in normal society a
    hetro man cannot rape another man. A hetro man can be raped though.
    Society seems to have a problem with a hetro male being raped, men are
    just plain afraid of the humiliation.

    			Wayne  

    Diercks:
    
    Well, I guess you're definition of gay is different than mine, also.
    To me, those men would be gay now, but hetero or possibly bi in the
    past. (I don't believe in the 'born gay' theory, not to sent this note
    down another rathole, but just to mention it.)
    
    Let us say that these prisoners had a temporarily exclusively homosexual
    experience.
    
    Male rape always brings up the scene in 'Deliverence' where the
    mountain men rape Ned Beatty and tell him to 'squeal like a pig'. I
    think it is about anger mixed up with sexual arousal, and it is 
    dominance. 
    
    

    'squeal like a pig'
    
    They must not have had any sheep or cows on their farm in Deliverence.

    re .32,35
    
    My apologies, Wayne. If your statement does not apply in environments
    where only men are present then I misinterpreted it. I honestly believe
    that heterosexual men who rape, when not allowed access to women, will
    rape men. Be it in prison or in a war zone or on a naval submarine. And
    that in such violent, confining environments where there are no women,
    some men will be raped.
    
    It may be that we're saying the same thing. 

    Perhaps the breakdown might be whether or not people view themselves
    as heterosexual, or gay, or bi, regardless of their actual behavior;
    their belief about what their sexual identity may be more important
    to them than these seemingly contradictory actions.
    
    It seems that Wayne is defining the identity strictly in terms of the
    behavior perfomed, though the individuals involved may not see it that
    way. Wayne (not to put words in your mouth, Wayne) has a more literal
    approach.
    
            

    <rape is not sexual, it's violence
    
    nonsense
    
    rape is often violent (not always)
    rape is often (indeed typically) sexual (although perhaps not always)

    I agree with Herb, rape is obviously both violent and sexual.
    
    The two get linked together a lot in our popular media, which is
    interesting in itself.
    
    

    re:.30
    
    That's called "situational homosexuality."

.42>  I agree with Herb, rape is obviously both violent and sexual.
    
    The component that makes and act rape is sex.  No sex act, no rape.
    
    The component that makes an act larceny is theft.  No theft, no larceny.
    
    Theft also includes violence some of the time, but that doesn't make it
    an act of violence.  Same goes for rape.  Pretty simple, actually, if 
    you sit down and think about it.

    Actually, Mike, in all too many trials, the lack of proof of
    violence (force, coercion) is used as basis for establishing doubt
    that there was a rape.  i.e., no violence, no rape.  Your logic is
    very sloppy to begin with, and whatever it is you are trying to prove
    by it escapes me.  Non-statuatory rape almost by definition involves
    violence.
    					- Vick
    
    P.S.  And don't bother looking it up in The American Heritage
    Dictionary, because you only find that the second definition of rape
    is to carry someone off by force (no sex apparently implied).

.45>    Non-statuatory rape almost by definition involves violence.
    
    Please post the definition and explain its origin.
    
    It is my impression that the definition of rape includes only two
    necessary elements : a sex act, and an unwilling partner.  But, I
    could be wrong.  Show me.

    And how do the courts determine that the partner was unwilling (in the
    vast majority of convictions)?  What do they look for?  Evidence of
    what?  I'm sure you can figure it out if you think hard enough on it.
    
    						- Vick

    Don't confuse force with violence, Victor.
    
    Nor coercion with violence.

    	The root meaning of the word from Latin just indicated violent
    seizure, with no particular sexual connotations. You can still see 
    remnants of this in the class of birds of prey called "raptores". 
    Their interest in their victims is not sexual.
    
    	Possibly the sexual connotation comes from the incident popularised 
    in art for more than 2000 years called "The rape of the Sabine women".
    The Romans were regarded as uncouth upstarts by the surrounding tribes,
    and none of them would give their daughters in marriage, and the Romans
    were short of women. By a stratagem they managed to capture (and keep)
    a fair number of women from the nearby Sabine tribe.
    
    	There *was* violence; a number of Sabine men were killed in the
    incident. However the interest of the Romans was not primarily in either 
    sex or violence; they wanted a family life. In the sculpture, pictures,
    literature that later described the incident it was almost inevitable
    that the Latin word for "seizure" would be used.

       I happened to come across this article just before this string
    started. It includes most of the points I was going to make anyway, and
    also has some interesting facts...
    
    (Reprinted here without permission)
    
    (by Mark Simpson of 'Time Out', July 29th 1992)
    
      "First a 25-year-old man was raped by two men on the Northern Line. A
    few days later a 23-year-old man was attacked at Streatham. On the
    other side of London in Finsbury Park another was drugged, mugged and
    forced to perform oral sex. Not long after that a man was seriously
    assaulted on a Southern-bound train. In the latest incident on July
    18th, a 20-year-old man was grabbed outside Leicester Square
    Underground station in the early hours of Sunday by two men, driven to
    a disused nightclub, robbed at knifepoint and held down by two men
    while another raped him.
       Until recently male rape was a taboo issue, and thought to be both
    rare and mainly perpetrated by gay men on other gay men. But now more
    victims are coming forward to speak out about it and explode the myths.
       'People are TALKING about it more now,' says Henry Leak, chair of
    Survivors, a support group for victims of male rape set up five years
    ago. Men find it particularly difficult to talk about a situation in
    which they find that the power has been taken away from them.'
       Masculine reluctance to admit the possibility of such powerlessness
    could be why there is still no offence of male rape under English law.
    This anomaly in turn helps hide the nature of the problem. Sexual
    assaults on men are recorded under assault, buggery and indecency.
    Metropolitan Police statistics show 110 cases of buggery in the past
    year but it is difficult to calculate the actual number of assault
    cases amongst this figure, as buggery can also cover under-age
    consensual sex.
       Last year the Met introduced the Male Sex Abuse Project to try to
    respond more effectively to the problem. 'We're finding that men are in
    a similar position to that of women ten to fifteen years ago,' said
    Jackie Bate, speaking on behalf of the project. 'They are uncertain
    about what repsonse they'll get if they report the crime and whether
    they'll be taken seriously.'
       To try to counteract this, male victims will, like women, now enjoy
    anonymity from August 1 with the 1991 Sexual offences ammendment Act.
    In addition, victim examination suites have been made available for
    male victims and 27 'chaperones' are being trained. The chaperones will
    stay with the victim from the time of the report until the court case
    (if they want to go ahead with the prosecution).
       Contrary to popular belief male rape is not nessecarily a gay crime.
    'The press often carries headlines such as "'Gay Rapists strike
    again".' says Leak. 'You can't assume that male rapists are gay. In our
    experience they are often married men. As with female rape it's a power
    issue; the perpetrators often have a hidden rage and rape is a way of
    asserting their power.'
       Although any man can get raped, gay men are most vulnerable. Project
    Sigma, a survey into gay men's sex lives, has shown that 27% of their
    930 interviewees had been subjected to non-consensual sex at some point
    in their lives. In his book, 'Male Rape:Breaking the silence on the
    last taboo' Richie McMullen, one of the founders of Survivors, argues
    that some 'straight' rapists are former victims who assume that their
    assailant was gay and actively seek out other gay males for revenge.
    Gay male rapists also tend to attack other gay men.
       Steven, a 20-year-old gay man, was raped three years ago. 'It was a
    typical date rape I suppose. We went back to his flat after dinner and
    we started kissing on the bed. He started getting rough and wanted to
    penetrate me but I said no. He then went beserk, slapping me around,
    then raped me and left.'
    Steven bled for two days before a friend discovered him.
       He was hospitalised with severe internal bleeding and a severed
    nipple - bitten off. He disguised the attack as a heavy SM session that
    got out of hand because he was under age, but there was another ,
    deeper reason: 'I didn't think for one minute that anyone would believe
    me. I think it's partly because I didn't believe myself that it had
    really happened. It's only later that you can accept the full enormity
    of it. Fortunately, I found my friends very supportive.'
       Like many victims, gay or straight, Steven has the added worry of
    HIV - the rapist did not use a condom. 'The worry you have about
    whether you've caught HIV is like a constant reminder of what
    happened.'
       Henry Leak lists the various reactions of victims as shame, fear,
    anger, denial. Sometimes the victim's health suffers, irrespective of
    HIV. 'Phobias, insomnia, flashbacks, even physical sickness - it's as
    if they've absorbed a poison into their bodies which will make them ill
    if they don't release it.' One reaction of some straight victims is
    violent homophobia. 'They feel that gay men are to blame and try to
    reassert their own damaged sense of masculinity through showing their
    power over them by queerbashing.' Sometimes the reaction is more
    complex, and the event stirs up questions of sexuality that had
    remained hidde: 'Some men wonder if they look "gay" or if they have
    somehow brought the attack on by having a secret gay fantasy.'
       The reactions witnessed have convinced Leak that men must have the
    same legal rights and treatment as women who are raped, but says that
    this alone is not enough:'There needs to be a social change; part of
    the process of recognising male rape and dealing with it involves men
    reappraising what it means to be a man, what it means to feel
    powerless, and share that experience with others.'"
    
    
    Paul.
    

    Within the context of rape, is "force" anything but a form of violence?
    
    Mike

    >Don't confuse force with violence, Victor.
    
    Interesting that another word for rape is violation.  Looks like they
    derive from the same root.  But lets refer again to the American
    Heritage Dictionary (the bolding is mine):
    
    	Violence n. 1. Physical FORCE exerted for the purpose of violating,
    	damaging or abusing.  2. An act or instance of VIOLENT action or
    	behavior. ...
    
    	Violent adj. 1. Marked by or resulting from great physical FORCE or
    	rough action.  2. Showing or having great EMOTIONAL FORCE ...
    
    >Nor coercion with violence.
    
    Left as an exercise for the reader.
    
    						- Vick

If a perpetrator performs a sexual act on an unconscious or incompetent adult,
isn't it rape even if no violence is used?  I think statutory rape requires
the victim to be under age, so this wouldn't be statutory rape.

    You mean if you strangle someone who is already unconscious that isn't
    an act of violence?

    
    Re .0 
    You are seriously kidding yourself if you expect to get very many yes
    answers. For two reasons ...

    	i believe the frequency of rape of adult males is quite, quite rare
        outside	of prison.
        this is one of the least safe forums I can imagine, for men to talk
    	about having been raped. The irony is that womennotes is a much
        safer forum than this conference even for a man to talk about rape.

    > The irony is that womennotes is a much
    > safer forum than this conference even for a man to talk about rape.
    
    Puzzle for the day:
    
    What does this tell us about the differences in the ways men and women,
    considered as broad classes, treat other people...?  :-(
    
    -dick

    Not much.

    <What does this tell us about the differences in the ways men and women,
    <considered as broad classes, treat other people...?  :-(
    
    
    I use it as yet another confirmation of my belief that men considered
    as a broad class, are not very good at dealing in public with anything
    emotional except anger.
    Be careful to read CONFIRMATION OF MY BELIEF, 
    				       ^^^^^^^^^

re .55:

>    You mean if you strangle someone who is already unconscious that isn't
>    an act of violence?

Huh?  I said that if someone performs a non-violent sexual act on an
unconscious or incompetent person, that's rape.  I don't see any connection
to your question.  Please enlighten me.

    There is a certain irony that of that large class of people for whom
    bravery is SUCH an admired quality, few have the bravery to be
    emotionally honest.

    one person has mentioned that they were raped in this note string
    and was pretty much ignored.

    re .-1
    
    
    				q.e.d

.49>    The root meaning of the word from Latin just indicated violent
.49>    seizure, with no particular sexual connotations. You can still see 
    
    Violent seizure?  Or forceful seizure?
    
    To rape is to take by force.
    
    Force is not the same as violence.  Force can be non-violent.

    re .-1
    
    
    			q.e.d.

.51> Within the context of rape, is "force" anything but a form of violence?
    
    Yes.
    
    Take for example a person who is blackmailed into sex.
    
    Force and coercion, but no violence.

    re:.57
    
    Oooh, work that agenda!!
    
    What does it tell me?  I'm not sure ...
    
    What does it tell YOU?  Hmmm?

>    What does it tell me?  I'm not sure ...

Ah, "you're not sure".  What does that tell us?  Michael, are you afraid to
come to any conclusion about the point in .57?  Afraid to look within and
see if it means anything?  Or too much in denial to admit it might?  I know
what .57 says to me.  You apparently don't know what it says to you.

DougO

    re ...

    And if I had to pick _one_ example of the archtypical male -in terms of
    arguing definitions and not revealing feelings- the sample population
    in this conference is extensive.

    I withdraw from this semantic quibble in which some, for reasons that escape
    me entirely, are bent on proving that rape isn't violence.  If you want
    to believe that, fine.  
    						- Vick

    I don't think they escape you entirely.
    I do think that the reasons you (and I) might like to impute might be
    considered defamatory by some. (But that's another definitional matter,
    isn't it?)
    

    
    
    In response to the question asked several back:
    
        <<< Note 812.4 by NITTY::DIERCKS "I advocate safe fluffing!" >>>

    
    
    Not only can I conceive of it, I've lived it.
    
    Next question?  Those nimrods in Soapbox are beyond believe.........
    
        GJD
    
    
    **************************
    
    I was 14 at the time -- maybe not exactly a man, but definitely had all
    the function parts of a man at the time.
    
    I was one of the equipment managers for the 8th grade basketball
    team.  After the members of the team had gone home, I decided to shower
    and clean up before I went home.  The coach came in (I'll leave out the
    more graphic details) and decided to shower with me.  The rest is a
    nightmare I'm not sure I'll ever quite be rid of.
    
    The only consolation I take, kind of, is that he died a couple of years
    ago.  I trust he is rotting in hell -- I can only hope.
    
    Forget? Maybe, but probably not.  Forgive -- I doubt it.

How much does it reinforce stereotypes for you, Herb?  It doesn't for me; 
rape is still a crime of violence and has nothing to do with the victim's
orientation.  Do you buy into that stereotype?  Even though it happened to
you and you're straight?

DougO

    Why is it that when one hears of a female being raped there's always
    that first thought of "she probably provoked it" .. or "she was
    provocatively dressed" ... or "she 'asked' for it" ... but when a male
    is raped those thoughts seem to never cross one's mind?

    Bubba

    and to anticipate something else you might say,
    I don't want to have any discussion that includes you as one of the
    parties

Herb, of whom are you speaking, then, when you say it reinforces
stereotypes?  If you're not speaking for yourself, then I don't
believe what you're saying.  And can the namecalling.

DougO

    1) no
    2) no
    3) no
    

    wow!
    
    an amazonian intellect

Ordinarily, I refrain from responding much to Herb, because he reacts so
negatively to any of my input.  Not my style to taunt the animals when I
visit the zoo, either.  Herb can't stand me.

But in the current example (.73-.74) I'm moved to dispute the stereotype 
Herb resurrected, with which he himself does not agree.  I consider it a
harmful stereotype and since he doesn't buy into it, I'm genuinely curious
as to why he brought it up...especially since he didn't dispute it, either
(other than to call it a stereotype.)

I was entering .78 before I'd seen .77, so it may appear that I'm trying 
to draw him into a conversation against his wishes; let it be known that 
unlike Ray, whose gracious olive branch was so churlishly treated, I've
no intention of helping Herb reset his filters with regard to my writing.
That task is his.

DougO

    
    
    I deleted the original copy of this note.  I was angry (about other
    things) when I entered it, and it served no useful purpose in this
    conversation.  My apologies.
    
        Greg

.74>rape is still a crime of violence and has nothing to do with the victim's
    
    You doubt the account in .73?
    
.73> I am not gay and I was not an adult when it happened and it was not
.73> physical force and I don't consider it relevant to this discussion.

    Fighting through the quibbling and debating of terms in this string is
    a tough thing and I wouldn't have done it if I didn't think that there
    was some value in discussing the questions in the base note.
    
    Obviously, unless one has been through it, telling what one would do is
    just speculation and may not come anywhere near how things would go in
    reality.  I have never, thankfully, had such an experience so I can
    only speculate.
    
    If a friend or anyone else told me of them having experienced such a
    voilation I would be as sympathetic as possible.  I would not look at
    them differently or consider them homosexuals.  I would recommend
    counselling.  Rape may or may not involved physical violence but in
    every case it does involve emotional violence.  I believe rape is an
    act of violence with a sexual component, not the other way around.
    
    Speculating, I believe that if I was victimized I would retaliate
    against the rapist.  It might take years or days, but I would pay them
    back double or triple.  I think I'd do the same if any of my family
    were so violated.  I'm not indicating that I'd rape in return.  That
    idea is almost too repugnant to even consider.  However, I would hurt
    them very badly, short of killing and I might possibly be driven to
    that.
    
    I have never had a homosexual experience and have no desire to have
    one.  I don't believe homosexuals are born with that preference nor do
    I believe that only homosexuals can rape other men.  
    
    Someone, I think it was Herb, (if not please do not take offense) that
    men worry that they might enjoy a homosexual act or it might remind
    them of childhood homosexual experiences.  From time to time I hear
    some vague statistics saying that it is common for boys to 'experiment'
    with homosexuality.  I never did nor do I believe any of my friends
    have.  (Although they might have and I'd never know it.)  I simply can
    not believe the numbers bandied about concerning adolecent homosexual
    and as such I have a hard time believing that men worry about enjoying
    it or reliving past experiences.
    
    I am very sorry to hear from the two men who shared their experience
    with us.  It is a shame that sick adults prey on young people.  When
    Herb mentioned that the creep had died, I thought about how many other
    kids this guy might have violated.  (Speculating) I think I would have
    messed him up big time in the effort to prevent him from doing it again
    and simply as an act of revenge.
    
    Marv
    

    Re: .85
    
    > Rape is about violence.  What about rape is violent???
    
    Read what you yourself write.  Everything about rape is violent.  Rape
    cannot be perpetrated without violence to the victim's emotions.  Any
    argument that promulgates a dichotomy between force and violence is in
    this issue pure casuistry.
    
    -dick

    	Not all rape is violent. An example: A young boy is with an older
    Homosexual man. ( let's say boy=12 man=60) The man shows the boy
    pictures of women and men in various poses/postures. Seduces the boy
    and sodomizes him........violent no......rape yes!!!! The intent was to
    have sex and even tho the boy is not brutalized, he is raped. Was it
    power?? Possibly. More than likely is was sexual orientation and the 
    excitement of a virgin conquest and forbidness of the situation. 
    
    	It wasn't me, but a friend of mine. Made me afraid of the man until
    he died. He was always around young boys, a counselor or sorts. Never
    made an overture to me, but I learned later that he had sodomized and
    performed oral sex on 4 or 5 (probably a lot more) of my childhood
    friends.
    
    	Every person I knew at the time thought very very highly of this
    man who donated so much time to the boys of the area. . .
    
    	I also remenber a girl who got drunk and took on over 20 guys one
    night. She only wanted the first one.....after 4 or 5 others she just
    laughed and said she might as well get all of the virgins in our
    village started off right......I was probably 10 or 11 and I was
    fishing for smelts when 30 or 40 kids all began gathering. I watched 
    mezmorized for what seemed like forever......then just picked up my pail
    and went home.......
    
    	Not all rape is violent.... 

    re .88, I don't know.  Was what the girl did with the 20 guys rape or
    was it a mistake on her part, and the taking advantage of a drunk on 
    the part of the guys?  
    
    And, the example of the 12 yr. old being seduced by the 60 yr. old
    homosexual man, is it rape only because the one being seduced is a
    minor?  If an adult is seduced by someone they originally didn't want
    to have sex with, it may be cause for regret, but it's not rape.
    
    Lorna
    

    I request that discussions about minors being raped be continued in
    358
    
    
    				herb

    re .85, are you serious in asking "what about rape is violent?"  ????
    
    Rape can cause "damage...or injury."  It could really hurt, if you get
    the picture.
    
    Lorna
    

.87> cannot be perpetrated without violence to the victim's emotions. 

    Emotional violence?
    
    Then every crime is violent on some level.
    
    How convenient!

There's clearly a difference of opinion here as to what "violence" means.

I think violence entails physical force.  "Violent emotions" is a metaphorical
use of the word "violent."  "Emotional violence" is physical force with an
emotional overlay, as opposed to "cold-blooded violence."

Others seem to think that there's violence without physical force.  They
seem to equate "emotional violence" with psychological abuse. 

    Convenient for whom?  What point are you trying to make, Mike?  
    
    So what do you want us to say?  Yes, some rapes involve no physical
    violence.  That's obvious.  I don't think anyone denies that.  Now you
    want to carry that one step further and say that some rapes involve
    no violence at all.  If you really don't understand the concept of
    emotional violence; if you really can't believe us when we tell you
    it exists and is often worse than physical violence; then what else
    can we do for you Mike?  You either believe it or you don't.  If you've
    never experienced it, maybe you just can't understand it.  We can't
    help you there.  But why are you on this crusade to prove other people
    wrong about this?  You can't succeed.  Other people know what they know 
    from their experiences.  None of your badgering or sarcasm will change 
    that.  It will just anger them.  Is that what you want?  
    
    					- Vick

    re:.95
    
    In that case, anything that causes emotional distress is violent.
    
    When I left work without my wallet the other day, it caused me
    emotional discomfort ... so, that was a violent act.
    
    When the guy ahead of me at the market took the last good ear of
    corn, that also caused me emotional turmoil, hence that was a violent
    act, too.
    
    There ya have it ... everything is violent.   Q.E.D.

    Re: .96
    
    Mike, I believe the operative word with regard to violence was DAMAGE,
    not discomfort or turmoil.  Why must you exaggerate things to make a
    point?
    
    -dick

    >   <<< Note 812.96 by MILKWY::ZARLENGA "but it was Saturday night" >>>

    >re:.95
    
    >In that case, anything that causes emotional distress is violent.
    
    No, this is just your supposition.
                                      
         

.97>    Why must you exaggerate things to make a point?
    
    Why must you rely on convoluted definitions to assert that rapes
    are crimes of violence?
    
    The "emotional violence" element is one heck of a stretch.

    And why are you so concerned about this, Mike?  

    
    
    Well, let's try this another way, Mike.  A form feed follows -- if
    you're squeamish, I'd suggest a <next>:
    
    
    
    As a result of my attack, there was no evidence (to the outside world)
    of its violent nature.  I was not bruised.  I was not battered.  My
    attacker didn't hit me.  But, he did hold me down and stuff his 2-inch
    in diameter erect sexual organ into my rectum.  There was no struggle
    involved -- he probably weighed 250 pounds and I weighed, maybe, 100 (I
    was very small, then).  Was that violence?  According to the things
    you've written here, Mike, I have a feeling you'd feel it's not?  Help
    me to understand -- WHAT IS VIOLENCE?  WHEN IS RAPE NOT A VIOLENT ACT
    AGAINST THE VICTIM?
    
        GJD

    re .101
    
      I am so sorry for what happened to you by the hands of such a sick
    person.  No matter what he got he deserves worse.  I may be wrong but I
    feel that Mike Z's inability to understand such a simple concept should
    not have prompted you to enter .101.  I'm not saying he made you do it
    or that you were wrong for doing so but his cloddish attitude must have 
    got to you to some degree.
    
      I hope that Mike is not on some sort of fishing expedition but in any 
    case I don't think his Neanderthal-like thinking should be regarded as
    worthy of your effort to make him understand.
    
      I've got a feeling that he has some unrevealed reason for being so
    insistent.
    
    Marv
    
    

    It may very well be that Mike is an unregenerate pedant!  
    
    Mike

    Re: .103
    
    Pedantry is not illegal or immoral.  Some other things that begin with
    "ped-" are illegal and immoral.  Enough is enough.
    
    Re: .101
    
    Greg, please don't let Mike Z. get to you.  He is known to be combative
    in Notes.
    
    -dick

    re: .104
    
    >Pedantry is not illegal or immoral.  Some other things that begin with
    >"ped-" are illegal and immoral.  Enough is enough.
    
    No kidding.  Do you believe that I think otherwise?  And what is your
    problem?
    
    Mike

    
    
    Thanks for the positive comments, folks, both here and off-line.  Make
    Z. isn't "getting to me" -- he's just a fly-speck in an otherwise
    cluttered life, right now.  (That's a joke, Mike.)
    
        Greg

Re: .103

And I'll bet that he even perambulated his sister when he was young!  (If he
had one, that is...)

				Steve

    NO!  Really?  Not Mike Z.  I am aghast!
    
    Mike

    
    And although I'm a bit uncomfortable joking in a *very* serious topic,
    I'll do so, with the proper switch...
    
    set/humor=on
    
    "I'll bet he even masticates with his mandibles, regularly!"
    
    set/humor=off
    
    -Jody
    

To continue Jody's lite approach to anotherwise painful topic...I recall a 
story of a politician in a southern state who ran against his opponent, 
charging him with all the same type of statements made here....And won! 
Mainly because his audience had no clue what he was talking about.....

Some note replies remind me of that story occasionally....

    	Vic

Re: .110

I've read that it really happened, but I think the origin is "MAD's Guaranteed 
Effective All-Occasion Non-Slanderous Political Smear Speech" as published
in MAD magazine in 1970.

Now back to the serious topic.

		Steve

.102>                    <<< Note 812.102 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
    
.102> person.  No matter what he got he deserves worse.  I may be wrong but I
.102> feel that Mike Z's inability to understand such a simple concept should
    
    "Inability to understand a such a simple concept."
    
    
.102> or that you were wrong for doing so but his cloddish attitude must have 
    
    "Cloddish attitude."
    
    
.102> case I don't think his Neanderthal-like thinking should be regarded as
    
    "Neanderthal-like thinking."
    
    
.102> Marv
    
    If you can't attack the words, attack the person, eh, Marv?
    
    Can we dispense with the cheap shots and stick to the discussion?

    re:.101, .106
    
    Greg, what's your point?
    
    Some rapes are violent?  ... of course they are.
    
    Do you think that makes rape a crime of violence?

    Mike,
    
    Instead of trying to make the readership prove their point of view, why
    don't you explain to us why you don't think rape is a crime of
    violence.  These mind games are becoming very tiresome.
    
    Karen

    
    
    Exactly, Karen! 
    
    Mike, give me (us) an example of rape that would NOT involve violence.
    Then, and only then, will I continue this discussion.
    
       GJD

I already gave an example of a non-violent rape:  a person performs a
non-violent sexual act on an unconscious person.  The victim is unwilling,
but the act is not violent (i.e. there's no physical force).

    re .112
    
     Mike, if you think that my using terms such as "Neanderthal" and
    "cloddish" are insults of your person, I ask forgiveness.  I used those
    terms solely in the context of the points you were trying to make and
    were meant to charactorize the ideas.  In no way did I intend to say
    that you were cloddish or neanderthal, merely the attitude your ideas
    represent.
    
     To me, striking a blow is not the only way an action can be considered
    violent.  Screaming, threatening and other forms of intimidation are
    very often violent.  Sexually violating an unwilling person is very
    violent even if direct *physical* force is not used.
    
    
    Marv
    

    So there must also be non-violent murder.  It is hardly violent by
    your standards to drop some cyanide into the mouth of a sleeping
    person.  Maybe if you people who think non-violent rape exists would
    just define your terms.  If violence means force, then how much force?
    I think that from my high school physics I remember that there would be
    some force involved in just penetrating an unconscious person.  Do you
    mean enough force so that physical damage is done?  Well, what force
    is actually used if a rapist holds a gun on you and says "bend over"?
    Isn't it emotional force, the threat of death?  Is that then a
    non-violent rape?  What physical damage is done?  Maybe some, maybe
    none.  But certainly emotional damage is done.  Let's face it, murder, no 
    matter how little physical force is used, is considered an act of 
    violence.  And rape, no matter how little physical force is used, is also 
    considered an act of violence.  And rightly so, in both cases.
    
    					- Vick

>    So there must also be non-violent murder.

How about Dr. Kevorkian?

    Kevorkian provides a mechanism for people to take their own lives.  The
    decision and action are theirs.  Thus it is not murder and is
    irrelevant.

re: .113

>    Greg, what's your point?
>    
>    Some rapes are violent?  ... of course they are.
>    
>    Do you think that makes rape a crime of violence?
    
    
    Violent rapes are a crime of violence.
    Rape is a crime of power.
    To force someone to do something against their will is a crime of
    power.
    
    I feel that normal sexuality should involve willingness on both parts,
    consensual connection is a vital part of it (even if it is
    wound-inflicting or pain-inflicting, or whatever....this is part of
    some people's normal sexuality, although many might debate this I do
    not).  When it's nonconsensual, i.e. FORCED (whether on an alert or
    unconscious person), there's something other than sex involved.  And to
    my mind, it's power and control that are sought.
    
    And Mike, there will *always* be exceptions to every rule, and you know
    that.  I guess part of me feels that when you say, "well, some aren't
    violent, so how can it be a crime of violence?"  it feels like you're
    ignoring the brutality of the very act itself *on the psyche, on the
    spirit*.  It's like saying, "Well, some people who died in the
    holocaust died of sickness, so they weren't all killed."  I know that's
    a very charged statement, and I apologize if anyone in here takes
    affront at it, but that's *REALLY* how it feels to me when people bandy
    about the details of rape as if each one were isolated, rare, and
    easily discussed and socially digested.
    
    Rape happens all the time, and shouldn't.
    
    -Jody
    
    
    

    
    
    Exactly, -Jody.  People are playing with semantic details here.  I only
    pray to all that's right and holy that those people who haven't
    experienced the trauma of rape don't ever have to do so.  Then, (and I
    believe only then) can a person really understand why it's often not a
    topic that can be discussed rationally.
    
       GJD

In the Trobriand Islands (off the coast of New Guinea), there's a
festival called the Yam Festival from June through August.  During this
time, the women of the islands become the sexual agressors and are
allowed to "rape" men.  It is not uncommon for six or more women to
waylay a man, force him to the ground, and the one to make him hard gets
to sit on him.  Other women may force the man to perform oral sex
on them.

Married women are also allowed to do whatever they like during the
Yam Festival.  At the end of the festival, everything returns to
"normal."

Men are not allowed to do this to women at any time of the year.

Also, the girls from one village and the boys from another village have
a game similar to tug of war.  The side that wins gets to chase the
other side until they catch someone and have sex with him/her on the
spot.  When a villager was asked what happened after that?  He responded,
"They have another game of tug of war!"

Naturally, these ancient island customs were frowned upon by the
missionaries who tried to convert the islanders, but some customs
just die hard.

For details about the Yam Festival, see "The Happy Isles of Oceania" by
Paul Theroux.

See you there next year.

    As the lights start flashing furiously at Thomas Cook Travel Agency
    switchboard.
    Attacked by young engineers furiously punching their celluar phones.

    Hence the expression, "Wham, yam, thank-you mam!"
    
    Sorry.

    Sooooo, 
    
    Some of the young engineers started furiously attacking their
    keyboards.

    Perhaps Popeye stopped there on his sailorly travels, hence the
    expression, "I yam what I yam".
    
    Very sorry, really.
    
    

.114> Instead of trying to make the readership prove their point of view, why
.114> don't you explain to us why you don't think rape is a crime of
.114> violence.
    
    Instead of asking me to repeat myself, why don't you go and look at
    .44, .46, .48, .64, .66 (for those who want an example of non-violent
    rape) and .84 (which references .73, a non-forceful, physically, rape
    account).

.115> Mike, give me (us) an example of rape that would NOT involve violence.
    
    See .66 and .73.

.121>    Rape is a crime of power.
    
    And power does not imply violence.
    
    Do we agree?

    Mike,
    
    ok, I'll rephrase it.  Why don't you explain to the readership why it
    is so important to you that rape is defined as an unwilling sex act and
    not a violent act.
    
    Karen

.131> Why don't you explain to the readership why it is so important to you
.131> that rape is defined as an unwilling sex act and not a violent act.
    
    See 816.22.

    re: .130
    
    It certainly implies the threat of violence.
    
    Mike

    While channel-flipping tonight I found CNBC's "Real Story,"
    which was having a report on male rape.  Interviewed were a
    male rapist, a psychiatrist who specializes in rapes, and some
    male rape survivors, including two who started a hotline.

    The report said only about 10% of male rapes are reported, and
    less than 3% of those ever go through to a conviction...the 
    evidence is thrown out, or the victim backs out due to lack of 
    anonymity, lack of support or respect from police (they are often 
    told to "just forget it"), or fear of being thought to be 
    homosexual.  The FBI estimates that 1 out of 12 males will be 
    assaulted or molested in their life.  (No stats are kept, so 
    they can only estimate.)  Also, male-to-male sexual assault or 
    rape is not even on the books as a crime in many states.

    Two (heterosexual, it was indicated) men in Ft. Worth, Texas 
    started a Male Rape Hotline.  They receive between 120 and 230 
    calls per month from men aged 18-45. The number is 1-800-338-6172.    

    The psychiatrist said that there didn't need to be intercourse for
    the act to be sexual assault, that the main issue was *coersion* 
    into sex acts that could include fondling and oral sex.  He said 
    that rapists' motives were control, expressing anger, and taking 
    away others' dignity, rather than just sexual desires.  He also 
    said that often the victim takes on the blame, feeling he did 
    something to cause or encourage it, and feels that if he were 
    'really' a man he wouldn't have let it happen. His recommendation 
    was counseling, and said that confronting the perpetrator was 
    often helpful.

    The rapist they interviewed will be released after 11 years in
    prison.  [I missed the begining so I don't know the circumstances
    of his crime(s).]  He has been taking depo-provera to suppress his
    sexual urges, but still has occasional "fantasies."  He does not
    feel he is a threat to anyone.

    I guess they are going to be showing this again at 11:00 tonight.  I'll
    tape it and fill in the blanks for Darch when I watch it tomorrow.
    
    Karen  

    Well, sorry, but they didn't show it again.

    forgive me for such a late response, but i've away from this
    awhile.
    re: .17
    > ... dying in the fight is conventional military hyperbole ...
    
    What is so difficult to understand about anyone resisting
    "to the death" (me or *preferably* hir)?  
    
    OK. maybe my misguided daddy had me reading too much Kipling,
    but there are certain things that i don't want anyone, not of
    my own chosing, to do to my body.  I would resist such, as 
    long as i had strength to do so.  I accept that i may suffer 
    mortal damage from the effort to overcome my resistance.  So?
    Who's getting out of here alive, anyway?  
    
    Granted, a particular set of circumstances could cause me to 
    decide that the indignity of "losing" in less onerous than
    death.  Then again, with the killer diseases going around,
    and the increased likelihood that someone who would force 
    such an issue would be infected, maybe the choice is merely 
    that of quick vs. s l o w death.
    
    God (and the exercise of good sense) willing i'll never have
    to find out.
    [dale]