Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Larry,
    I envy you your friends.  Hang onto them.  All my college chums have
    spread out around the country and most of us have grown apart.  I've
    never been around men who hugged.  I think I would like it, though it
    might seem a little awkward at first.  I only once hugged my father
    that I can remember, and I was in my thirties and it was kind of an
    accident, i.e., for some reason I thought that's what he wanted me to
    do, but it wasn't and it embarrassed him.  Once when I was in serious
    need of comfort I told a friend I loved him in a letter.  He never 
    responded to that, and so I dropped it.  We have since ceased corresponding.
    I guess it's not too uncommon for some guy or other to come up beside
    me and give me a shoulder squeeze.  Don't think I've ever done that
    myself.  I think it's telling that we in the mennotes conference don't 
    have a "hug" topic like the women do in their conference.  I guess some 
    guys participate there, but it's usually women they're hugging :^).  I 
    suspect that if we had one the comments would be very different:  [deep 
    voice] "Hey, guy, here's a bear hug from the Chief.  Hang in there." 
    
    			- Hey, I love all you guys! Ya know what I mean?
    
    				- Vick

    re .0
    
>    How prevalent and acceptable is this form of affection in your life? 
>    With whom, if anyone, would you feel close enough to share at this
>    level?  Would being on the receiving end of the examples above bring 
>    comfort or anxiety?
    
    What's the opposite of prevalent...?  I guess I can think of two times.
    
    One was after I'd pulled my best mate unconscious from a car wreck...
    he clearly wanted to show his appreciation and feelings but didn't
    really know how... the other was when my brother hugged me at his
    twenty-first... it helped that we were both drunk...
    
    I don't know, maybe it would be nice... but it just isn't done... my
    mate and I have known each other over twenty years (not bad, we're both
    twenty-eight)... we don't exchange endearments - but we're always there
    for each other.

    I'm a "huggy" person.  Been that way all my life... but it was often
    suppressed (in my previous existance).
    
    All the men in my family (possibly excepting my brother, whom I haven't
    seen in about 17 years) are "huggy" men.  They love it, and their
    spouses love it...
    
    Some of my men friends also know it... but, I haven't lived in New
    England to have developed any male friends that are that intimate. 
    Somehow, my suspicion is that that won't happen here...not sure why.
    
    But, I've a few close friends in Texas who both give and receive a hug
    when we're together.  I enjoy that.
    
    All the men in my family are not at all reluctant to voice their love
    for each other, also... but, that's more rare among my friends.
    
    tony

    Hugs never happen. It's a standard joke of mine: my wife and I meet the
    other couple, each man embraces and kisses ("Mwa!") the woman in the
    other couple, then while our wives are embracing my counterpart extends
    his hand for a manly shake while I feign an intention to embrace him
    too. Nervous laughter all around. What a ritual.
    
    For years I attempted to hug my father when departing from a visit, and
    he learned to keep an elbow in the way, like someone playing defense in
    the key (basketball reference), to prevent the hug. The last couple
    times we saw each other, however, he actually *solicited* a hug! It was
    warming.
    
    - Hoyt

    I'm 55.  For fifty years I went without hugs, even
    from women, except for my wife.  And in the last few 
    years of our marriage, those hugs ceased to exist.
    
    Three and a half years ago, I and five other men
    formed a men's group that has met every Tuesday night
    since then.  We hug each other when we meet and hug
    each other when we part.  We hug each other when we
    meet on other occasions, at church, in restaurants, etc.
    
    So I'm pretty much guaranteed to get more than ten hugs
    a week from other men.   :-)
    
    I met a lot of men at a five-day retreat with Robert Bly
    back in 1988.  About 25 of us in the Boston area get
    together for one-day reunions three times a year.  We
    had our tenth reunion this last Sunday.  There were 14
    of us there.  I hugged every man at least once.
    
    I'm going to move to northern Virginia this summer, and
    the hardest thing to leave behind is the men's group.
    And after the men's group, the hardest thing to leave
    behind is the woman that I've  been seeing.  I've already 
    begun to connect with men in VA, however.
    
    My two sons and three grandsons live in VA, which is why
    I am moving there.  I hug my sons, but they're not very
    comfortable with that.  Those years of growing up with a
    non-hugging dad has left its mark...  But they are very
    affectionate with their own sons.   Maybe in time they
    will be more at ease with hugging me...
    
    Wil

I guess I'm not one to hide emotions,,,  but I don't wear them
on my sleave either.  

For those men out there that wave a precarious eyebrow when two
good friends embrace, (I think) they're the ones with a problem.

A carry over from that tragic, macho  'Men don't Cry' thought process.

How empty a life, where one has never experienced the honesty and
openess of a good friend or close relative.

    I've been working on becoming a "huggy" person for a couple of years
    now, and it doesn't come easily, as it is totally alien to my
    upbringing. I have no memories of either my father or mother hugging
    me as a child, except for the perfunctory hug my mom gives me after
    a long absence. As an adult, I discovered that I was touch-starved,
    and expected my romantic relationships to make up all that need,
    which was an unreasonable expectation.
    
    I have also developed a set of friends through a men's group,
    like Wil's, that made a concious effort to hug one another. We
    have evolved into a social group as well, and do many things
    together. Woman are also part of this, and they also hug and
    get hugged. It is still much more socially acceptable for men
    and women to hug, and even kiss, in friendship, than for men
    to hug each other, which is too bad. I will still far more
    readily hug a woman than a man, but it really depends on how
    well I know that person. A handshake is pretty safe with both
    men and women I don't know.
    
    Incidently, two of these friends have participated in Bly's
    workshops, and others have been influenced by Bly through
    the book "Iron John" and other writings.
    
    -roger                     
    

    For me Hugs are more important than words or sex...though I enjoy sex
    very much especially since meeting my new partner I *could* live
    without it aslong as I was receieving hugs at the same time.  A hug can
    say alot as do eyes..the way a person hugs you is important and alot
    can be told as to whether it is a genuine hug or not !  I have had big
    gaps inbetween realtionships and the one thing that I really did miss
    was my hugs !
    
    Tracie.
    
    

I don't have a lot of male friends that I hug, with the exception of some 
of the guys I am close to at church. It isn't done often but does happen 
naturally and without any embarassment or surprise. My son is 20 and while 
I don't hug him, I can put my arm around his shoulder and he doesn't seem 
to mind, although I don't push it....

My 15 year old daughter on the other hand loves to hug and gets/gives all 
she can....my wife as well. I tend to hug lots of ladies I know, both 
people I know socially such as church, but friends at work. My old manager, 
while moved away, gets a hug when I see her. So does a fellow mgr that i 
worked with for several years. Wonderful people that I would misss *not* 
hugging when the opportunity arose.

Growing up in the '50's, guys didn't hug, at least in New England area, so 
it is something of a surprise reaction for me to even consider it.

    Vic

With my gay, male friends, a hug is the most common way of greeting
and saying good-bye to friends.  It is also common to see gay friends
"cuddled up" with one another: arm in arm, hugging tightly from
behind, sleeping on someone's lap, nuzzled up against someone's chest
(stuff that, in the heterosexual world, would mean "a couple"). It is
also very common to kiss close friends briefly on the lips.  I say, "I
love you" to close gay friends often enough to remember instances, but
not often enough to say that it happens "a lot." 

With my heterosexual, male friends, a handshake is the default.  (Just
this past weekend, I visited my cousin and her husband.  I kissed and
hugged her good-bye, and I shook her husband's hand; however, I've
known Georgianne a lot longer than I've known her husband.)  For 
close, het friends, I will hug them, but it is brief and with less 
body contact than my gay male friends.  I have rarely told a het, male 
friend of mine that I love him, and I have never kissed one of my 
friends.

What's really odd is that I naturally shift gears from one set of 
conventions to another when I leave and enter the gay/het worlds.  
Although I prefer the way I behave in the gay world and feel a bit 
jarred when I have to hold back from my heterosexual, male friends.  
(And I'm aware that I don't "have to" hold back, but it seems more 
problematic with them.)


							--Gerry

    Hugs? No problem, for the most part.  I like to give and get hugs and
    will share them with whomever is willing.  Telling a male that I love
    him is an entirely different matter.  Most that I know would not accept
    it gracefully.  It has only been in the last few years that I heard my
    father say he loved me and started getting hugs from him.  Most people
    I know attach sexual connotations to the words "I love you", so, it is
    not often said between men.  (if it isn't clear, I'm het 8-)  )
    
    I hate A-frame hugs, elbow blocked hugs and that one where the other
    person sorta twists away as you come into contact.  That is worse than
    no hug at all.  My mother-in-law always groans when I hug her, but she
    ain't the hugging kind.  My father-in-law is one of the all time great
    huggers, and I love him a lot also (and we can say it).
    
    Just my $0.02
    hugs to y'all
    jimc

    
    -2 Gerry,
    
     Why do you think that is the case./.ie Gays more affectionate/hets
    less so????????
    
    
    David 

>     Why do you think that is the case./.ie Gays more affectionate/hets
>    less so????????
    
    My bet is that gays per se are not 'more affectionate'.  My bet is that
    his het friends are terrified of being seen/thought to be gay.

    
    Okay Simpson.I'l bite..Why do you think  the hets in question
    equate affection with homosexuality????Or for that matter hets
    in general???
    
    David

    Okay Simpson.I'l bite..

I'm not Simpson, but you can bite me... :-)

    Why do you think  the hets in question equate affection with
    homosexuality???? Or for that matter hets in general???

I don't think that was the claim. I believe that (most) (straight) men equate
showing affection for other men with homosexuality. Do you disagree? Do you
have an explanation for the apparent dichotomy? I see it too. My experience
has been less marked than Gerry's, but I see the same things. I think I see
somewhat less of them because 1) I'm in California and, despite any BS, people
here ARE more "huggy." 2) I don't hang around in purely gay circles as much. I
tend to hang out in more "mixed" crowds - where hugging is also the norm, and
cuddling is common too. I NEVER see the same level of body comfort in mostly
male mostly het groups, and never do I see the same amount of same (male) sex
hugging in mixed male and female het groups.

	-- Charles

    re .14
    
    If you change your statement to read ... equate displays of
    affection... then I think the answer is fairly obvious.  The
    contemporary male image of strength and no emotions has been discussed
    too many times in too many conferences for me to rehash it here.

    
>     Why do you think that is the case./.ie Gays more affectionate/hets
>    less so????????

Not by nature, no.  Remember, I don't hug and kiss my heterosexual, 
male friends either.  It goes against the rules out here.

I think there is a difference because, when we are in a gay bar, we
aren't afraid of anyone calling us "faggot" for putting our arms
around one another.  Know what I mean?  We're already gay, so why 
put a "no hugs or kisses" rule into our little subculture?


							--Gerry    

    I'm a little surprised at the apparent aversion to expressing
    love for the people you love in your life based on their gender.
    I've been too many furnerals with all matter of wailing and
    weeping over the deceased; listened to many a pious, sobbing uglogy
    which often comes around to some version of "If only I had to him/
    her I loved them".  If someone cares that deeeply about me, I want
    to know NOW, today, while I'm alive.  Better to risk some potential
    awkwardness and impropriety today than a lifetime of regret after I'm
    gone.
    
    Of course, all of the above means I have to take the initiative with
    the people (male and female) in my life.  The positive result of all
    that risk-taking is decribed in the basenote. 
    
    I'd hate to see another generation of men who don't have the skill-set
    to embrace their son and say I love you.  Perhaps that why some men 
    say the kindest things about people they admire, respect or love only
    when that person isn't around to hear it.
    
    LArry
    
    (The people I spoke about in the basenote were born, raised and still
    live in the NYC-New Haven-Boston corridor.  So much for geography :^)

    
    > for me to rehash it here....
    
     I  would not consider your explanation a rehash..Please feel free
    to speak your mind..It's all new to me...
    
    Charles,
    
    > I'm not Simpson but you can bite me :-)
    
      I don't know, have you had your shots:-)
    
    David

    
    
    Gerry,
    
      Do you think that if Gays were not the hugging type that heteros
    would change and opt to hug..I am seriously trying to find out
    why the hets in your neck of the woods  have these rules of no
    hugs and kisses..Thanks for your answers..
    
    David
    

    
    I'm brought up with the Norwegian "cool" style of behavior. It's 
    certainly not "good manner" for a man to show feelings, and as a result,
    *men do not hug* either. (..what's common in the gay community, I don't
    know). 
    My opinion differ, I hug men. But, bearing in mind the above mentioned,
    I select my *victims*. I like the receiving end to be comfortable, and
    appriciate what I'm doing, not feeling embarraced.
    
    Tracie (BTW, I understand that as a female name, but never the less..),
    asked for a hug in  note .8 (see heading). Me, my silly fool ;^),
    though that it was a good idea to copy "the HUG note" in =wn=, and by
    that send Tracie my warmest hugs (and open the possibility for all of
    us to do the same). So I did.  I opened "The HUG note".
    
    But *no*! Why do we have moderators? Well,at least stop anything as
    silly as that! ;^). No "HUG note" please! ...."We deleted your note".
    "...it doesn't belong in the conference". ..."pesonal communication,
    please use mail".
    Yes I know, we all see personal communication from time to time in this
    (and any other for that matter) conference. But that's different you
    know, it's not *hugs* ;^). Go ahead, talk about violence and sex, but
    *personal hugs* in *mennotes*, oh no!
    
    I'll appreciate you *personal* view. What do *you* think?
    
    
    regards
    PerS,
    

    ref .21
    
    
    .....
    
    
    .......yes, I *do* need a hug right now!
    
    
    PerS,
    

    Per,
    You're kidding!!!  The moderators really won't let us start a hug note?
    I'm dumbfounded.
    
    Anyway, look, I'm not even good at giving hugs to close friends, even
    close female friends.  And I only just met you, Per.  But anyway, I
    guess I can send you a kind of mental electronic hug that just says,
    "Hey, I'm with you in all this.  And I hope you get all the real hugs
    you need."  Phew!  Even that was tough.  One step at a time.
    
    You might want to run over to the womannotes conference.  I'm sure you
    could get all the hugs you want over there.  :^)
    
    				- Vick

    Speaking of hugs, and hug topics:  Now, I've only been monitoring the
    womannotes conference for about a month, and I don't know all the
    people over there or how well they know each other.  But I get the
    impression that a lot of the conferees see themselves as kind of 
    "hug resources" in that they will give hugs to anyone seeking them
    regardless whether they know them personally or not.  Maybe I'm wrong.
    But if I'm right, then doesn't that cast a whole other light on the
    matter.  Here we are over here in the mennotes conference, agonizing
    about even giving hugs to people we love the most in the world, and
    here are people (guys too) over on womannotes freely giving huge
    silly hugs to complete strangers.  When I'm over here I kind of feel
    like a troglodyte in a cave, you know what I mean.  Grunting and
    fighting over food scraps.
    
    Question:  Is the benefit of a hug significantly reduced because the
    hugger is a wholesale distributor of hugs?  (My answer may not be what
    you might think.)
    
    Question:  If the women (and aclimatized men in the womannotes
    conference) can do it, why can't we?
    
    						- Vick
    

 I'd have to agree that there is a significant social stigma associated with
being a homosexual, and this is reflected in most heterosexual men's aversion
to being thought of as being gay. Whether this is a _cause_ of mens' poor
expression of affection for other men or a result of generations of men as
the strong, silent type I don't know.

 I find people questioning my orientation because I sometimes note in one of
the "gay" notesfiles and because some of my friends and acquaintances are gay.
Most of the time it doesn't bother me, but every now and then I feel just a
tiny bit self-conscious. For instance, a gay noter came to my office to meet
me after having read some of my notes in soapbox and other places. We chatted
for a while, and he said some comment which included the phrase "as a gay man,
I feel..." And I remember thinking at the time, "you know, if people that I work
with heard that, they might question my orientation." And I had to remind myself
that there's really no reason to worry about that. That until we stop treating
gay people as pariahs that we are going to be living our lives in a 
fundamentally unwise manner. 

 I think that until you realize your own fears about being branded a homosexual
you don't really understand what homophobia is, and why it is an emotional 
rather than a logical thing. It takes alot of work to overcome- which is
perhaps the biggest reason why most people don't bother. It's alot easier
to do nothing...

 Anyway, I don't feel comfortable giving or recieving a whole lot of affection
from other men- largely because (I think) I am afraid of being thought of as
being a homosexual or of finding out some of my friends are homosexuals. I 
think. I'm not really sure. What I do know is that much of _my_ unease about
demonstrating affection is colored by homophobia...

 The Doctah

    I don't believe my discomfort with hugging men has much if anything
    to do with homophobia.  I was completely sheltered from even the
    notion of homosexuality until high school, and I had already learned
    by then that men didn't hug.  My father never hugged me and I never saw him
    hug anyone not obviously female.  So you may argue that it was society's 
    homophobia that indirectly caused me to be a non-hugger of men, but it
    was certainly not, in the beginning, any homophobia of my own that caused
    me to be this way, and I argue that that isn't the root cause now.
    I think I'm uncomfortable with the notion because:
    
    1) It isn't commonly done and therefore stands out as an action.  I
       feel this way about many things.  I've only recently started acting
       in the yearly Amherst PTA play.  We have a lot of trouble getting
       men to come out and make fools of themselves on stage in front of
       everyone they know in the community.  And, for me, getting up on
       stage myself feels a lot like giving a guy a hug.  There is a lot
       I have to overcome to do it, that isn't a fear of forgetting my
       lines, dance steps, or notes.  I know I always look a little 
       self-conscious on stage.
    
    2) I project my own discomfort onto the huggee.  I don't like to make
       other people uncomfortable.  If I feel uncomfortable, surely he does
       too.  Better just forget the whole thing.  I have similar feelings
       about selling things.  I could never be a salesman.
    
    					- Vick
    

RE: .25                    

  I'm willing to judge a hug's benefit on how it feels to me, and
  not worry if a lot of other people are getting hugged by the same
  hugger.

  But that brings up a related thought.  What I get in a notesfile
  is an *electronic hug*.  It might even have a promise behind it,
  that says, "If and when we ever meet in person, I will give you
  a real hug."  However, at the moment that I read it on my screen,
  it is only an electronic hug.  My eyes and my mind "get it,"
  but my body goes right on slouching in my office chair.  There
  aren't any arms around me, no hands on my back, no belly pressed
  against mine, no head alongside mine, no hair in my eyes, no 
  scent of the hugger in my nostrils, no murmurings, heartbeats, 
  growls, to be heard and felt through my body.

  I still feel good, because another human is acknowledging me, and
  is probably making some kind of empathetic statement, but it is
  all in my head or my "emotional" body, and not at all in my 
  physical body.

  That seems like a seductive trap.  It does not help me to go into
  my body.  In fact, it does just the opposite; it seduces me into
  *thinking* that I have been hugged.  It replaces my senses of
  touch, smell, sight, hearing.  Instead of using my body and its
  senses, I end up using my imagination.  If I grant that my body
  leads part of my life, then my body feels slighted, bypassed.

  It is wonderful that I have an imagination, and my imagination can
  trigger my emotions, so I may feel loved by an electronic hug (or
  by a hand-written letter from someone that loves me).  But it is 
  not wonderful if I am frequently (or always!) using my imagination 
  in *place of* my senses.   I think I fell into that trap during 
  the years I was married.  It is a trap that I try to avoid in 
  relationships (of all kinds) that I am in now.  I try to hug the
  people (men and women) that I know and like.  My body is happier.

  Electronic hugs are nice, but they are not interchangeable with 
  real hugs (IMHO).
  
Wil

    
    	And even more specifically, a Puritan American cultural thing...
                                           

    
>    I'd hate to see another generation of men who don't have the skill-set
>    to embrace their son and say I love you.  Perhaps that why some men 
>    say the kindest things about people they admire, respect or love only
>    when that person isn't around to hear it.
    
I don't know if it's just me, but I've seen a _lot_ more progress with 
fathers being physically emotional with their sons and with saying "I 
love you" to them.  I just think that there hasn't been as much 
progress with heterosexual, male friends saying "I love you" or 
touching one another.  

But there has been _some_ progress.  I mean, just that I, as an 
openly-gay man, _have_ some heterosexual male friends is progress.  
That I hug a few of them is huge progress.  And that I don't often 
tell them that I love them is progress to work on.

One step at a time, right?  I get weary when I think too hard about 
changing the world.  It's more manageable when I can pick a few areas 
for me to work on today, and get to work on it.

							--Gerry

    
>      Do you think that if Gays were not the hugging type that heteros
>    would change and opt to hug..I am seriously trying to find out
>    why the hets in your neck of the woods  have these rules of no
>    hugs and kisses..Thanks for your answers..
    
Well, let's check this out...

First of all, I'm not sure that "hets in my neck of the woods have 
rules of no hugs and kisses."  For one thing, I watch het men at het 
parties and at more intimate gatherings, and they don't hug or kiss 
when they greet or part.  

For another thing, I have some fear ("internalized homophobia") that
my gayness will threaten my heterosexual, male friends, so I tend to
go much slower with the hugs than I do with my female friends, whom I
assume are much less likely to be threatened by it.  When I _do_ hug
my het, male friends, I usually put on a questioning smile, open my
arms slightly, and ask, "Do you do hugs or handshakes?"  That works
very well, they almost always hug. 

And it could be a factor that I don't have very many close
heterosexual, male friends.  And I tend not to hug people unless they
are close friends (that's just the New England in me). The lack of het
men in my life is why I moderate MENNOTES and lead a men's core group.
I noticed the lack of balance and the isolation from heterosexual men,
and I wanted to do something about it. 


						--Gerry

Oh, your question...

>      Do you think that if Gays were not the hugging type that heteros
>    would change and opt to hug..

Nope.  You're implying that the heterosexual men don't hug and kiss 
because the gay men are hugging and kissing.  Actually, your average 
heterosexual has no knowledge of how gay men behave when we are in 
"gay space."  (It makes sense, if you think about it.)

I think that the reasons why my heterosexual friends don't kiss and 
hug when greeting/parting is because of men's issues, not because of 
not wanting to do what they've seen the gays do.  You could make a 
good argument that some men are afraid of being accused of being gay, 
if they were to hug and kiss.  There is truth to this, but I think 
that it goes a layer deeper, into the area of "men and vulnerability" 
and "men and showing their emotions."  That deeper layer cuts across 
sexual orientation; in other words, gay and heterosexual men are more 
similar than different in those regards, despite surface differences.

...and I have almost _never_ seen heterosexual men kiss each other on 
the lips when greeting or parting.  Except for some ethnic-group 
customs, I see that as light-years ahead in American culture.  We're 
still working on hugs.


							--Gerry

    
>    Question:  Is the benefit of a hug significantly reduced because the
>    hugger is a wholesale distributor of hugs?  (My answer may not be what
>    you might think.)
    
Often, yes.  But not always.

It depends more as to whether the hugger is really empathizing with me 
and appreciating the context of who I am and what I'm doing at that 
moment.  In other words, some mega-huggers (and there are a lot of 
them in the gay community) toss off a hug without bothering to really 
relate to me; they just do it to satisfy their personal view of 
themselves as Nurturers.  In that context, I feel devalued by the hug; 
me and my feelings are completely beside the point.

...but then there are people who give a lot of hugs, but they take the 
time to talk to me, too.  They take the time to relate to me and to 
inject meaning into their hug.

So, it depends.  I _hate_ a superficial hug.  A Designer Hug.  An 
Aren't I So Supportive Hug.  

>    Question:  If the women (and aclimatized men in the womannotes
>    conference) can do it, why can't we?

I don't think it is a matter of ability ("can").  We are able to do 
it.


===================================================================

As Moderator:

	This conference has a long-standing policy to restrict the 
	notes here to discussions for and about men.  We have 
	consistently deleted notes that involve personal dialogue
	between members that can be handled offline (through mail).

	Was it "right" to delete the Hugs note?  In the context of
	how we run MENNOTES, yes, it was right.  But there are lots
	of good ways to run Notes files.

	If people would like to receive electronic hugs, I don't see
	anything wrong with asking that they be sent through MAIL.


						--Gerry

    In all seriousness and sincerety, I would like to thank the MENNOTES
    community for its thoughtfulness (and not), charity (and lack thereof),
    and caring (etc.). I genuinely feel a sense of community with you folk.
    There have been some awkward moments, most often as a result of my
    operating to avidly in partisan or provocateur mode, for which I'm
    regretful.
    
    In the spirit of this note, and with my tongue only lightly pressed
    against my cheek, I offer you, Wil, Gerry, the Doctah, and everyone:
    
                            <<<FIRM HANDSHAKE>>>
    
    - Hoyt

    CHEEK/INSERT=TONGUE
    
    Ah, my imagination had a nice time with that, Hoyt.
    And it didn't interfere with my typing...  and the
    surrounding <<< >>> helped me get the "feel" of it.
    
    If only I had two right hands, I could have simulated
    it, and my right hands would have that warm strong
    feeling that comes from a <<<FIRM HANDSHAKE>>>.
    
    CHEEK/REMOVE=TONGUE
    
    Wil  (and by the way, the sentiment was also felt)

    
    According to an HR training film I saw last week, the
    customary male greetinng turns out to be the buttock
    slap...
    

    
    Concerning wholesale electronic hugs:  To give my answer to my own
    question, I don't think it significantly reduces the benefit.  When
    I see someone in womannotes ask for hugs and get four or five deluges
    of hugs from other noters, I feel that the huggee really feels better,
    if for no other reason than that they know there are people out there
    responding when they feel the need for a response.  Perhaps these
    huggers are like paid mourners at a funeral, but who says paid mourners
    don't make for a better funeral?  Perhaps there is also an analogy with
    the principle of positive re-enforcement.  The smallest, most trivial
    of rewards can be used quite successfully to mold major changes in the
    behavior of human beings.  An electronic hug is a small reward.  I find
    myself hanging around the hugs topic on womannotes like a tramp at
    the restaurant window.  And even though I've never asked for hugs, it 
    feels good to know that if I'm ever desperate enough to ask, that I
    almost certainly would receive.
    
    To me, a hug is a symbol of something.  I'm not sure I agree with Gerry
    that the physical part of a hug is all that important.  When I hug my
    wife or kids, I am telling them something about the way I feel.  I
    believe I could tell them nearly the same thing in a letter.  Now a
    hug we get from someone we are close to, electronic or not, is going to
    mean more then a hug we get from Joe Blow.  But that isn't to say that
    the hug from Joe Blow isn't going to be effective.  The fact that a
    total stranger out there would take the time to give me a hug makes me
    feel better, more secure, more a valued member of the human race.
    
    I think it's interesting that this electronic media of ours actually
    removes some of our inhibitions and allows us to express some things
    that in person we might have a very hard time ever expressing.  And far
    from being a dreadful depersonalizing force, I find myself to have
    benefited greatly from, been uplifted by, and found comfort and solace
    within, this conference and (particularly) the womannotes conference.
    
    There are a couple of reasons to have a hug note.  First of all, people
    who need a hug need someplace to post that fact.  Secondly, by
    requiring hugs to go Email you set up the situation that no one knows
    if the poor suicidal person seeking hugs ever got any or not.  I think
    the hug note on womannotes is kind of self-regulating in this way,
    ensuring everyone gets at least some hugs and if they really seem to
    need them badly, a huge slew of them.  Thirdly, I think it makes
    everyone feel good to see the results of the hug requests.  The only
    problem I see is that we guys over here are so screwed up that we may
    not be able to find it within ourselves to give out enough hugs.  Maybe we
    would have to recruit some of the experienced womannote huggers to help
    get us started and keep us going :^)  Maybe if we don't call it a hug
    note, maybe if we call it an "emotional support" note or something, so
    that up-tight guys like me don't feel so awkward.  Then replies like
    "I'm sorry you're having a rotten day, guy.  Hang in there.  I care."
    would serve as the moral equivalent of a hug.  I mean, look, you talk 
    about male core groups.  Isn't this whole conference in some ways a
    male core group?  Isn't it kind of silly to say we can give each other
    hugs but we gotta go in the other room to do it?  Isn't the hug
    meaningful to everyone in the group, not just the hugger and huggee?
    
    I gotta go.  Think it over, all of you.      - Vick

    
    I can`t remember the last time I hugged a male friend. It just makes me
    feel very uncomfortable and awkward- maybe it was just the way I was
    brought up....I don`t know. I don`t really think there is anything
    wrong with it- some people are more comfortable hugging people and some
    people don`t like to. I almost always greet my male friends with a
    handshake or a high five. I greet all my female friends with hugs
    though ;^).
    
    Scott
    
    

    Male culture in America is determined by the culture of the country
    of origin of it's founders; in other words, England. Our Puritan
    forefathers brought with them the classic English reserve, and
    emotional non-expressiveness, common to northern European countries,
    and since they were here first, and at the most formative phase
    of our country, it has become the standard for male behavior.
    I think this is the basic reason that men don't hug each other,
    here in the U.S..
    
    As someone noted, the standard is quite different in Italy, where
    very macho guys who would punch your lights out if you hinted that
    they might be gay walk hand in hand with one another. Men kiss each
    other on both the cheeks as a greeting in a number of countries
    around the Mediterranean. They tend to be more emotionally expressive
    as well.
    
    It's all in the prevailing culture. A friend from Japan desribes the
    reserve between people there, and the lack of emotional expressiveness,
    and it all sounds very familiar. Very little touching there, as well.
    
    -roger
    

    Ref.: .23 & .24
    
    Thank you for the "hugs". I want mention names (getting personal you
    know), but it was "only" two of them. I'm not suprised though, it's
    tough for me too (as it's probably is for *all* of us in US and
    northern europe.
    BTW, why should I go to "lesbigay conf" or =wn= to get hugs, I'm
    neither of that.
    Yes it's true (so far) that we're not allowed to open a "HUG-note".
    ("so far", 'cause mail-conversation is still going on). Hope it sorts
    out to the better (in my opinion), and that you soon will see 
    "The HUG-note". 
    
    I'm not a "typical hugging person" myself, but I strongly belive
    we (men) have a lot learn in showing emotions. I know, it requires 
    strenght, but we have that, don't we? ;^)
    
    We are not the ones to judge if it "works in the receiving end or not".
    I dislike the idea of cencorship.
    
    pls, while waiting for "The HUG-note", contact me by mail. I need
    support in my discussion with the moderator.
    
    
    regards
    PerS,
    

    re .28
    
    I have two sons, 6 and 3.  I don't see them that often but I make sure
    they get a hug any time they want one - and they do.  I'm dreading the
    day I find out that 'only sissies' do it...  And it will happen, no
    doubt about it.  Australian society is aggressively male, and the old
    Monty Python joke about the University of Wollongong where Rules 1, 3,
    5 and 7 read 'No poofters' cuts very close to the bone.

 Sound to me that if a hug note were instituted, it would either be a place
where men could overcome their awkwardness in dealing with affection (even if
only electronically) and give others support or it would die out from lack
of use. Either way, I can't see a reason why we can't break with the tradition 
of having no "personal" topics, at least as a test. We might find we like it.
We might find it is rather "ho hum." I don't see why we can't give it a try...

 The Doctah

    re:  hugging sons
    
    I don't have sons, I have two daughters.  So I will never be faced with
    that problem.  But I think if I had a son and he told me hugs were for
    sissies, I just tell him that, no, fathers and sons hug each other all
    their lives, though maybe not in public.  I would tell him that I
    needed a hug from him now and then, but that I wouldn't embarrass him
    by being affectionate in front of others.  Good luck anyway.
    
    					- Vick

    Thanks to all for support via mail, here is the *final vote*:
    
    
    
    	....there will be *no* "HUG-note" in this conference!

    I assume there's a *good* reason for not having a hug note?
    
    Charles

    ref .46
    
    Well Charles, if it's *good* or *bad* it's not up to me to decide,
    but it goes like follows:
    
    
    "...debating men and emotions and "electronic emotions" is a
    time sinkhole that I recommend that we do *not* enter; we can do it on
    our own time." "The issue is closed".
    
    
    So pls, don't ask me to comment it, I might blew up your screens.
    
    regards
    PerS,
    

    I won't ask for your comment then since I'm too proud of my workstation
    ;-), but I think I know how you feel.
    But.... if I understand correctly, men and emotions cannot be discussed
    in a conference about mens issues.
    Somewhat strange to say the least.
    
    Anyway, here's an (illegal) {hug} for trying.
    
    Charles

    RE:
    "                                      <<< Note 584.45 by OSL09::PERS "Per Spangebu" >>>
                                                       -< minority rules... >-
    Thanks to all for support via mail, here is the *final vote*:
    
    
    	....there will be *no* "HUG-note" in this conference!
     "
    
    I didn't know there was any call for support vs. non-support.  Hmmmm out
    in left field again.  Oh, I see it up there at the top, "Minority rules?"
    It didn't matter what my opinion was anyway, WHY THE HELL AM I IN THIS
    NOTES FILE AND REEPLYING TO THIS NOTE?  I don't know, ^Z

    I recommend everyone mark this note as the hug note.  MARK HUG
    so you can find it later when you need it.  What better place to
    ask for a hug then in the "Friends and Affection" note.  How requests
    get answered may keep the moderator busy.  :^)
    
    					- Vick

    but "minority rules" so it didn't matter what anybody's particular
    opinions were...

Ya know, guys, I find the intensity of this exchange to be rather stressful
and depressing.......  I need a hug!

Any takers?  (1/2 a 8-) on the above, but only 1/2...)

Semi-seriously, guys.... the more I wade thru MENNOTES, the more depressed
I become.  Is there anyplace around here where a man can get the kind of
support and sharing from other men that women are able to get in WOMANNOTES?

My wife was right; when women get together to talk, the do so to share
experiences, offer support, interact, network, and UNDERSTAND each other.
When men get together to talk, they boast, they back-slap, they tell bad
jokes, and do all kinds of other things to distance themselves physically
and psychologically from one another.

I thought MENNOTES might be the kind of place where I could find this sort
of cameraderie... guess I was wrong.  Guess there'll be no men hugging here.
No poofters, right?

Need I even mention that I'm straight and have no sexual desire for men,
yet I have no problems giving a man a hug (as long as he's receptive)?
[hey, that's ANOTHER of the constricting assumptions of manhood challenged;
the idea that close physical contact can only occur in a sexual context].
Ah well, I'm rambling.

Anyone got a hug for me?  Anyone?

>Is there anyplace around here where a man can get the kind of
>support and sharing from other men that women are able to get in WOMANNOTES?

 Nope. Besides, some of what passes for support in =wn= could be cause
for personnel actions if done by men...

 The Doctah

Strange,

Lots of talk about giving support to others.  I'm actually surprised that
it's an issue.  

Oh, what a macho world we live in.

Hugs,

>>>Ken

    > Is there anyplace around here where a man can get the kind of
    > support and sharing from other men that women are able to get
    > in WOMANNOTES?
    
    Apparently not (or not anymore).
    
   > When men get together to talk, they boast, they back-slap, they tell bad
   > jokes, and do all kinds of other things to distance themselves physically
   > and psychologically from one another.
    
    Yup.  This is similar to the level of discussion you'd find in a sports
    bar.  Express opinions all you want, but don't you ask for any
    emotional support.  Take that sh-- outside, pal ...
    
   > I thought MENNOTES might be the kind of place where I could find this sort
   > of cameraderie... guess I was wrong.  Guess there'll be no men hugging
     here.
    
    No state-sanctioned hugging, at least.
    
  > Anyone got a hug for me?  Anyone?
    
    I have a (((hug))) for you.  There's no better way to start the day.
    I'll take my chances with the law.
    
    Allbest,
    
    LArry

As a co-moderator, I wish to point out that at no time was anyone told that
they could not "offer hugs" in this notes conference.  What we said "No" to
was a separate "Hugs note" topic.  I have continued to think about this
over the weekend, but am rather put off by the observation that such a note
in another conference has some 800 replies in a rather short time.

Like my co-moderator, though, I marvel that some people have so much free time
in which to endlessly debate the issue of a "Hugs note".

Please keep in mind that this conference is for discussion of issues pertaining
to men.  Discussions on how the conference itself is run should be held
by MAIL with the moderators, and not in the conference.

					Steve

	Might be that those of us who do need to help out those who don't.
    One of my best friends is a woman who, before we met, seemed rarely
    if ever to have been hugged by men except in potentially sexual
    situations.  The first time I hugged her, it was A-frame all the way. 
    I explained to her that it ain't a real hug if your thighs don't touch. 
    It helped that my wife (a world-class hugger, and also this woman's
    friend) was standing there to encourage her.  Now we hug whenever we
    meet, and she seems to enjoy it as much as I do. She's getting good at
    it, too.

	Those of my male friends who don't come from hugging backgrounds (I
    don't either, for that matter -- I hadda learn it later) were all
    really stiff the first time I hugged them.  One of them still is.  But
    I persevere.  And I've explained to each of them that it ain't a real
    hug if your thighs don't touch.  I'd give large amounts of money for
    pictures of a few of their faces when I first told them that.  But
    they're all coming around.  I shook hands with one not long ago (I
    thought hugging made him uncomfortable), and he looked disappointed.
    So I hugged him and he looked OK again.

	Reading this over, I sound to me like someone who's out to convert
    other people.  I think the reality is that when you hug somebody, they
    usually hug you back.  That's the part I like the best.


                                                 /////
						 |||||
						 \___/
	 

    	If the problem is accumulation of replies, an automatic monthly
    	purge of the HUG topic replies is easy enough to institute... they
    	are usually short term replies anyway.

    	Should we create a separate MEN_CAN_HUG_TOO notesfile? :-)
    
    	-Erik

Re: .63

If only it were that easy.  Deleting replies does not free the space in
the file without a long and expensive CONVERT operation.

As I said, I'm still giving the issue some thought.  Stay cool...

		Steve

    Inspired by this note and the womannotes hug note, I've started working
    a little on real hugging.  Not with guys yet, sorry, too soon.  But at
    our regular bridge group last week I gave my partner a BIG hug at the
    end, and she hugged me right back.  Felt especially good because we
    came out dead last for the night.  Then I gave my hostess a smaller,
    but still satisfactory hug on the way out the door.  This may not seem
    like much to a lot of you, but it is very uncharacteristic of me and
    I see it as real progress.
    					- Vick
    P.S.  I doubt that a hugs note in this conference is going to draw
    nearly the volume of responses that the hugs note in the womannotes
    notesfile draws.

    -1.
    
    Congratulations!  That *is* real progress.  Doesn't it feel great to
    give it and receive it?
    
    > P.S.  I doubt that a hugs note in this conference is going to draw
    > nearly the volume of responses that the hugs note in the womannotes
    > notesfile draws.
    
    That might actually be a selling point (see previous notes).
    
    LArry
    
    
    

I too am put off by electronic hugs, and the number of notes in the WN hug
note. I find them kind of sad actually, that we need to resort to electronic
hugs, but then I see the replies saying "thanks, I needed that" and realize
that it's a matter of...

	... valuing differences

It's not for me, but it's clearly doing some people good. Weighed against the
cost of the oxide to hold it? A bargain.

	-- Charles

    I agree with Charles... but... I also feel that there's a lot of 'show'
    in a hugs note.  In other words, I don't feel they're all that sincere,
    but that it's a sort of 'trendy' thing to do in notes.
    
    It ain't for me either.  A cry for an electronic hug strikes me as
    funny, cuz I figure you ought to have someone in the flesh to help you
    through hard times, a personal friend, and if you don't, I wonder why. 
    Words of encouragement are helpful, but someone saying, "Here's a big
    HUG," seems pretty meaningless, to me, like, "Oh Bobby!  Thanks!  I
    feel so much better!  Now I can get on with my life!"   Yea, right.
    
    I'm sure there are some noters that are serious by it, so it may be
    helpful... but I think it's a noting fad for the most part.
                                                        

    I've got a strong gut reaction to this discussion.  I'm fully in
    support of all kinds of experiments in communication.  Very few might
    have predicted the amazing experience in communications, imperfect
    though it is, that Digital has realized with VAXnotes.  It was
    originally just an experimental communication tool.  It had certain
    purposes intended, and was expected/hoped to be useful.  How much
    greater than that it has grown!  I like those kinds of accidents.  To
    get there, somebody has to say, "maybe this will get messages across
    between people" and try it out.  Weird, experimental music is similar. 
    Not all of the experiments work, of course; I like jazz, but Ornette
    Coleman did such strange things in the name of jazz that I still don't
    trust my stereo.  But I try out such things because I want to learn to
    listen to whatever people are trying to get across.  Trying to go with
    the electronic hug phenomena requires me to suspend a few habits, there
    is effort involved.  But those efforts are also part of the growth I'm
    trying to achieve in my life by removing barriers within me to
    emotional expression.  My parents raised a very sober-faced kid, who
    learned to defend himself by withholding emotional displays, suppressing
    himself.  It was useful in certain tactical situations, and remains
    useful in some life situations today.  But as a strategic doctrine it
    is flawed, for it prevents me from tapping a very powerful part of my
    psyche; a creative, emotional voice, a soul that can freely share joys
    and sorrows with fellow beings.  So I don't mind making the effort to
    share an emotional hug, because I can liken it to a struggle I face
    because I was brought up to be a stone-faced, emotionally suppressed,
    "Ordinary People" American Male.  I find it worthwhile.  I don't
    require that anyone else does.  But I'm rather amazed that the
    moderators could come to a conclusion that this isn't a topic of
    interest to (some) men.  It certainly is to me, and its strongly 
    related to what I think men are taught to be.
    
    DougO      

    re .70
    
    Well said, sir!
    
    Of course this is of interest to men.  Even those like me who've grown
    up such that I have to suppress my environmental conditioning so I can
    hug my kids.  A hug in Notes?  You've got be kidding!  In absolute
    seriousness the thought of such a visible, public and permanent display
    of affection towards another man sends cold shivers down my spine.

    re: .69
    
    This isn't really my bailiwick here, of this I'm VERY aware, but I felt
    a strong need to respond to something said in .69
    
>    It ain't for me either.  A cry for an electronic hug strikes me as
>    funny, cuz I figure you ought to have someone in the flesh to help you
>    through hard times, a personal friend, and if you don't, I wonder why. 
>    Words of encouragement are helpful, but someone saying, "Here's a big
>    HUG," seems pretty meaningless, to me, like, "Oh Bobby!  Thanks!  I
>    feel so much better!  Now I can get on with my life!"   Yea, right.
    
    We should all be so lucky to have a friend to support us all the time. 
    I was Graced to have one such wonderful person in my building for a
    while.  Why don't I have friends around to help me through the hard
    times?  Because they can't always be RIGHT HERE giving me support. 
    When a friend of mine killed himself a while ago, I marched right out
    and asked for support.  And it was there.  It was no fad.  I felt the
    electronic community, a community I had strongly invested in
    emotionally and timewise, was THERE for me.  Thinking of me, keeping me
    in their prayers, supporting me.  A virtual hug is not a real hug, but
    the sentiment, the thought, feels the same to me.  That is why I seldom
    hesitate to give electronic hugs, or real hugs, to those who need them. 
    People are touch hungry, for the most part, people feel a strong need
    to connect.  I get a good feeling about supporting people, particularly
    when they're in dire straits, or when their regular support network
    cannot be there for them.  
    
    Also you can save electronic hugs, and *reuse* them! ;)  The beauty is
    that they are permanent.  The magic of someone thinking about you is
    still there, someone who cares enough to manifest their caring into
    something (even if it's electronic).  Is this pathetic?  Do I not have
    enough friends to care for me already?  The gossamer bonds that connect
    me to my electronic friends FEEL as real as when I see them in person,
    and if I have never seen them in person, I often hug them when I first
    meet them, if they seem to be comfortable with that (I often ask
    first).
    
    Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

    -Jody
    

 The electronic hugs phenomenon is rather strange to me. I don't ask for
hugs, though I usually appreciate it when I get them. I don't mind sending
hugs through mail, but I am definitely uncomfortable in leaving a permanent
public record of them. I dunno; I just think mail is better for hugs than
notes is. But to me, electronic hugs pale in comparison to real ones...

 the Doctah

    Hey, Jody, jump in ANYTIME.  And thanks.  - Vick

Whereas the thought (empathy) behind a "hug note" may be noble, I see the
replies (from the other conferences) to be superficial...  Anyone can stick
a "hug" reply in a "hug note" but if some stranger gave me a piece of his/her
time to send a more personal note of support this would be much more meaningful.
I have yet to see anyone go really "tactile" in a Notes conference.

    How are these electronic hugs any different from support expressed
    in a letter?  (The Original "Notes", as it were.)  Comfort and support
    expressed across time and distance can be as effective as on the spot
    physical support, depending on the situation.  And for some, I expect
    it's easier to ask, and to give, behind the sheltering screen...
    
    Ron

    I think Jody's sense of support comes out of the investment
    that she admits to making.  I've been around the notesfiles
    enough to know that you have made that investment, Jody, and
    you have offered your hugs to others.  So the asking for hugs
    and the giving of hugs (electronic, that is) is taking place
    between people who have shared a lot, through NOTES and MAIL.
    In some sense these are friends of yours, many of whom you've
    met at noter's parties, or through the book of snapshots that
    gets sent around (the world!), etc.
    
    If I'm an occasional noter, however, and I try to jump in here
    and ask for a hug, and a couple of guys who I've never even
    "read" in the notesfile, offer me an electronic hug, I don't
    think it will feel very satisfying.  But it might encourage me
    to make more of investment and that might lead to being more
    open to friendships, etc...
    
    With all my railing against making too much of an electronic hug,
    I'm still in favor of a hug note, at least as a way of announcing 
    my NEED for a hug.
    
    Wil
    

    This isn't my place either, but maybe I can explain it.  Yes it is nice
    to get hugs in person, but my friends are spread out all over the
    country.  So, instead I get electronic hugs from those friends on the
    net, and phone hugs from others.  I've found I have friends I have
    never met in person who can help me through the tough times, the happy
    times, and just plain times.  I've also noticed however, that my male
    SO doesn't understand how I maintain relationships this way.  He needs
    people in person, although with a good friend now in Japan, he is
    beginning to understand the value of long distance bills ;-)  
    
    However, the pressure of raising kids, jobs, distance, etc.  Keeps my 
    friends and I from being able to get together in person, so we go to
    the next best thing to stay in contact.  Yes some send cute little
    warm, fuzzy hugs that some people interpret as false, but they are
    meant in total sincerity, and a piece of the other person's
    personality.  As .72 said we need friends and contact, and an
    electronic hug is one way to show each other that there are really
    people out there who care when times are tough.
    
    Hugs for whoever needs them today.
    
    Meg

Posted for a member of MENNOTES who wishes to remain anonymous:


========================================================================

    I know one group of men that pretty enthusiastically engages in hugging at
    every safe opportunity. And the key is safe. That is male survivors of
    childhood sexual abuse. I've seen gay men hugging each other,straight
    men hugging each other, mixtures, (even a few 'none of the aboves')
    all hugging up a storm. 
    The only requirement is 	
    	a) no unwanted touching (no touching without permission)	
        b) no sex under any circumstance.

    Very powerful stuff!

    Since a significant number of men find hugging to be a challenge,
    perhaps it's the sound of a "Hug Note" that's off-putting.  So call it
    something else: ("Lean on Me", "Helping Hand", "Lifelines" ...)  The
    marketing doesn't matter.  What matters most is the need for emotional
    support, no matter what it's called or how it's delivered.   After 18
    months in this conference, I feel I know some of you well, at least I
    have a clear idea of where you stand.  To receive support from you when
    I need it would mean a great deal.  Perhaps expressing support, on-line
    and in public make it easier to express those same feelings, physically
    and in public, toward men and women in our lives who also need it.
    
    If these aren't "men's issues", I don't know what is. 
    
    LArry

As moderator:

><Like my co-moderator, though, I marvel that some people have so much free time
><in which to endlessly debate the issue of a "Hugs note".
>    
>    that sure feels like a smack to me.
>    As such I think it is a condescension that ill-becomes a moderator.
    

     I think that it is the type of reply that we need more of in 
     Digital, today.  As a moderator, I resent the amount of energy 
     that certain individuals are draining from me (accusatory MAIL 
     messages, political lobbying in other notes files, and mis-
     representing my personal mail messages to him by incorrectly
     quoting me in this notes file).  

     This is energy that I could be spending on my supervisory duties; 
     this is also energy that I could be spending on richer discussions 
     in MENNOTES; this is also energy that I could be spending "hugging" 
     MENNOTERS within the context of notes topics (the only thing we've 
     said no to is a separate "Hugs" topic, not hugs in this file).

     During these difficult times (and I would argue, even after 
     Digital gets back on it's feet), I think it's appropriate for 
     one employee to call another on wasting time at work.  Discussing
     rich topics in MENNOTES can be a good use of work time; bantering
     and lobbying long after the moderators have made a decision is
     _not_ a good use of work time, including the moderator's time.

     
							--Gerry

     >Discussing
     >rich topics in MENNOTES can be a good use of work time; bantering
     >and lobbying long after the moderators have made a decision is
     >_not_ a good use of work time, including the moderator's time.
    
    I think this is turning into a very rich discussion, and what it
    relates to is the concept of men expressing affection or support
    for other men in the notesfiles, which is really what the concept 
    of 'hugs' is all about.
    
    I don't think the mods are handling disagreement particularly well.
    It seems that you like us to conform to your opinion on this,
    Gerry.
    
    -roger
     

                                                                          

I'm surprised at the replies that say, in effect, "it's not for me, so we
shouldn't have it." This is coming from a person who said "it's not for me,
but I think it's a good idea."

I honestly don't get it, would one of you explain it to me?

	-- Charles

    Dougo,
    
    Please use paragraphs!  I have to hit "next" on your notes as they're
    hard on the eyes!  I'm probably not alone....
    

As moderator:
    
>    I don't think the mods are handling disagreement particularly well.
>    It seems that you like us to conform to your opinion on this,
>    Gerry.

   	No, Roger, you are misreading me.  I'm not upset at all by your 
	disagreeing with me, and I think that the conversation in this
	note--for the most part--has been excellent, both in the 
	learning and in the data collection for the moderators.

	My point is this: I don't mind people entering a note and
	discussing a moderator's decision.  I can read the note at
	my leisure, collect data, and talk with the other moderators,
	time permitting.  I do mind people claiming
	to have been pounced on by the moderators, indirectly lobbying 
	for a change to MENNOTES in other notes files, misquoting my
	personal mail messages in MENNOTES, psychoanalysizing us
	moderators and our motives as if we aren't here, and continuing 
	to send me mail after the decision has been made.  All of this tends
	to lead to a lot of wasted emotion, bantering in MAIL, and
	wasted time.

	...all this, and you can still hug each other in this file, if you 
	want.  

	...and people can argue with me until you are blue in the face
	that I "volunteered for the moderator's job."  All I have to say is 
	that, if you have a problem with the amount of energy and time that
	I allocate to MENNOTES, then take it to my manager, Frank 
	Willison, on node WORDY.

	Without any redirection from my management, I'm judging the
	Hug Note issue to be very low priority, and I don't want to
	spend any more work time on it.  (And I refuse to spend 
	personal time on it.)

	If you want to spend work time or personal time on it, go for 
	it.  Just don't drag me into it anymore.


							--Gerry

Sorry, Dwight.  Ordinarily I do write in shorter paragraphs.  You may notice
from the time stamp on that one that I was here pretty late at night, and it
all came out in one amorphous thought.  Made sense to me ;-), though I agree
its probably a little hard on the eyes!

DougO

    <I do mind people claiming to have been pounced on by the
    <moderators, indirectly lobbying for a change to MENNOTES in other
    <notes files, misquoting my	personal mail messages in MENNOTES,
    <psychoanalysizing us moderators and our motives as if we aren't
    <here, and continuing to send me mail after the decision has been
    <made.
    
    Since I've been one of those driving this issue, I felt like beeing
    to a certain extent, blamed for this.
    To clairfy, I sent ::GFISHER a mail. I apologized, if this was pointed
    at me, gave him some background info on what happened (through mail
    from other noters), all in the mood to sort out any misunderstandings.
    I got the same answer as the previous mail I sendt him. 
    The case was closed.
    After saying that, _he_ puts comments like the above in notes.
    
    PerS
    

RE Explaining what's been going on.

No.  It isn't worth my time.

>    But another question please...

Sure thing.

>    Do you intend to be saying that it is appropriate to  'invoke' your
>    status as moderator (not to mention your status as supervisor), to
>    criticize how others spend their time?

As a moderator, no.  As a supervisor, no (I'm not your supervisor).  
As a fellow employee of this company, a company that is currently 
laying off people, a company that is falling behind in software 
technology, yes, it is appropriate.

My hats of "moderator" and "writing supervisor in DPE" only give me 
some other experiences from which to draw my opinions.

...and I can perfectly understand why you would want to tell me to 
piss off.  C'est la vie.  I'll live.

							--Gerry