Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    ...AND having someone rip off my towel down in the locker
    room so I have no way of drying off from showering after
    my lunchtime work-off-the-stress-from-everything-else-that's-
    happening-in-my-life run.
    
    AAAAARRRRGH
    
    And some people wonder why sometimes a man goes over the edge
    and gets an automatic and heads for a shopping mall or a post
    office or a MacDonald's and opens up on the crowd....

    I hear the pain, anger and frustration and can recall a LOOOOOOOOng
    year during my divorce and settlement.
    
    Hang in there...
    
    Steve

    You should log into the MOANS file!  
    
    Tammi

    Hang in there.  This too SHALL pass.  For help with the divorce/custody
    stuff, you might want to check out CSC32::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS.
    fred();
    

    Have you ever tried to think and memorize whatever GOOD happened to
    you? Have you ever have a nice quiet cherished moment? I believe life
    is not BAD... we make it bad!
    Life should be beautiful... only if WE make it beautiful... sadly, it
    is not by getting a gun and heading for wome mall. Come on, folks, we
    are human beings, with some bad things but with some GOOD things too!
    Lets bring up some of the things we LOVE today... I am sure there are
    some going on at the moment.......
    Cheer up! life is good.
    Ana
    

You make it sounds like all these things are out of your own control ...

You made your bed ..... uncomfortable is it ?

Wendy

    
    Re: .3
    
    MOANS File ????
    
    Can anyone tell me how to get into this conference ?
    
    Or was it just a joke ...
    
    Carina-not used to american jokes as I am german-
    

    Hang in there; this is a really tough time. It will pass. Many of us
    have gone through it. Try to find something small you like, do
    something good to you. At one stage I had to note down on paper
    everytime something good, or even o.k. happend to me. So I could look
    back and realise that the shitty weeks occasionally had little bright
    specks in them. 
    
    Regards,
    Heinrich

    Moans and Complaints            CLOVAX::MOANS                          1398
    
    					andrew

RE: .0

You are citing a lot of "endings" in your note.  End of a marriage,
end of your current job, end of your current housing.  And none of
them seem to be going very smoothly.  On a "stress" scale, you are
pushing into the high end.  You have damn good reason to moan, so 
please continue moaning.

One of the ways we beat ourselves up as men is to assume that we
can't feel bad about something and moan about it.  And the next way
we beat ourselves up is to shame ourselves because we haven't "fixed"
it within 24 hours.

We are supposed to be able to change spark plugs, jobs, houses, and 
even spouses without getting "down".  Maybe you can do it with spark 
plugs (assuming your knuckles come away with all their skin) -- but 
the other things are all very stressful, and they don't get solved
in 24 hours.

Part of the stress is because something has ended.  And what has
ended may not be the obvious.  

When a job ends, the obvious thing to worry about is the potential 
loss of income, but behind that is the loss of a familiar routine, 
the loss of a familiar place in which to work, a familiar set of 
people with whom we work, etc.  Some of these familiar things may 
even be so annoying that you are happy to be rid of them, but they 
are still * familiar *.  If you have a familiar method of dealing 
with a daily annoyance, that may still be less stressful than having 
* no way * of anticipating what you will encounter tomorrow.  The 
unknown may be  more stressful than the disagreeable known.

There is a bewilderment during the ending and before the new beginnings
get underway.  A sense of not being able to trust anything, not being
able to rely on things, not even being able to predict your mood 24
hours from now.  Some small thing can happen and you are suddenly very
sad or angry or confused or disappointed.  Something truly funny happens
and you find yourself feeling guilty for laughing!  The thing to admit
is that when things are bewildering, they are bewildering.

There are some good books around that describe these endings,
disilluionments, beginnings.  Judith Viorst's "Necessary Losses",
Sheldon Kopp's "And End to Innocence", William Bridges' "Transitions."

So a lot of things are ending.  New things will start, to take
their place -- you can know all that intellectually, in your head --
but the intellectual knowledge and the reminders that it will "pass"
don't help the *feelings* very much.  That's our difficulty as men --
believing that we can rationalize away the feelings.  All we have
to do is apply a little logic, we think, and we won't feel so bad.

It doesn't work.  Feelings are feelings.  You can't patch a bad 
feeling with a good rationalization.

Three things are important (told to me recently by a friend who
after three marriages, years of drinking and a failed suicide has
put her life back together again):

  DON'T DENY YOUR FEELINGS, and don't deny the reasons why you feel bad.
  It's OK to feel bad!  The feeling that you will "lose it" if you
  "give in" to your feelings is vastly overrated.

  DON'T ABUSE YOURSELF as a way of dealing with the feelings.  
  Put the liquor and any other stuff you have into the toilet
  and flush.  The corollary to this is DO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.
  Simplify anything that can be simplified.  Quit watching the 
  news on TV if it gets you down.  Pull out of activities that 
  seem to be adding other stresses, etc.  Don't overeat. 

  KEEP TALKING to as many people who will listen.  Find someone
  who does not give you "fix-it" advice, but is willing to simply
  listen -- another man, if you can find one, since dumping all of
  this on an SO is pretty hard on the relationship.  Listen to the
  other man's woes.  All men have some woes, and you will discover
  in the listening that you are not alone.  Don't compare the woes
  to find out who's in the worst place.  Woes are woes, feelings are
  feelings.  Make a deal with the other man, a half hour of my woes
  for a half hour of your woes.  You will get laughing about it.
  (Obviously, this should not be a bartender...)
  The corollary to this one is STOP TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO BOTHER YOU.
  Seek advice when you want it, but if you find yourself in an
  argument all the time with someone -- trying to justify what you
  are doing to "fix" your ills -- then you are only increasing the
  stress.  People who volunteer "fix-it" advice and then tell you
  that you are stupid for not doing what they say, are doing you
  no good.  Ask them to stop, tell them their advice is not helpful.
  If they won't stop, put as much distance as you can between you
  and them.  This is just part of taking care of yourself -- you
  need your energy to solve the problems, not to defend yourself
  from these "friends."

And obviously, you keep working the problem.  You're a man, working
the problem comes with the plumbing and the culture.  Working the 
feelings is what the culture drummed out of you, so it's a hell of
lot harder.

Hope this helps.  I'm in a bad place, too, and it is helping me a lot.

Bill

    ignore people like .6
    
    keep the faith, it WILL get better
    
    Sara
    

    Someone in this file has a neat personal: "Free advice is worth every
    cent" (paraphrased, perhaps, but the gist is there)... So, be cautious
    in what advice you take.  But, Bill (re: .11) has some excellent
    advice, I'd say.  His reply is one of the most succinct I've read in a
    very long time.  I'd bet his advice is worth a lot more than it costs.
    
    Good luck... keep your head up.
    
    tony

    Tony
    
    That's Steve Lionel, the host moderator's pn.
    
    Bonnie

     Re .11
    
    Thanks Bill - I liked you note very much. A concise summary of some
    stuff that it took me years to learn :-)
    
    

    True enough, Bill, .11 is a good "guide for the troubled man".
    
    Things to hate...what about the little things that happen in
    everyday's life that add up 'til you think you'll get a serious case of
    apoplexy... those weeks in which nothing goes the right way...
    you buy an expensive Lacoste shirt only to notice at home that you
    probably choose the only one that bypassed the quality control and has
    a hole (that you fail to see at first and a friend shows you while
    you're on the way for dinner)...you develop a special instinct for
    always choosing the slowest queue in every supermarket or postal
    office...you step on a hideous mine-layer dog's product with your
    Italian shoes...you look at your car in the morning and notice that
    some drunkard obliged it with his bicycle in the course of the night
    ...at work your cluster promptly crashes the second you were about to
    save the changes to a document...you drop your best eau de toilette
    bottle in the morning and step on the only piece of glass you
    overlooked....you have unfortunate incidents with the coffee machine
    every second morning...over-sized dogs try to bite off a piece of you
    every time you go jogging in the park in order to "relax"...your
    friends react touchy at every second of your "witty" remarks...you
    nearly knock out yourself with a smashing shot to your own chin when
    finally opening a stubborn bottle of wine...
    just mentioning a well chosen few of the things that are the spice to
    my everyday's life since some time ago; hell, really, I wouldn't even
    play with the idea of fooling around with a gun in a McDonald's, for I
    could be sure it would go off and shoot some essential parts off me.
    Sometimes the right thing to say just seems to be "AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!",
    by which I want to say...my greatest sympathy for you, Mr Base-noter!
    ...Paul
                                                

    Doncha just love when notes are set hidden, and no explanation
    is given?
    
    I mean, I'm sure there is a reason, but being such a curious/
    nosey little critter that I am, I just have to know.
    
    

Well, gee, if you just HAVE to know, why not send mail to the moderators
rather than wondering out loud?

			Steve

>Well, gee, if you just HAVE to know, why not send mail to the moderators
>rather than wondering out loud?



	Because most moderators won't tell (privacy and all that).  If
	you place a note where the authors can see it, though, many of
	them will send you whatever it was that was set hidden.

	If it's set hidden, you don't know who the author is, so you can't
	contact them directly.


	kat

Re: .19

Well, Kath, maybe some moderators would indeed send you the offending text,
but I wouldn't....

Serves me right for not taking the time to delete it right away, I suppose.

				Steve

RE: Steve

>Well, Kath, maybe some moderators would indeed send you the offending text,
>but I wouldn't....

	Exactly--that's what I was saying.  I was just giving a reason
	why someone would post a note like that.



	As a moderator in other conferences, I wouldn't either...but
	as a noter, if I were curious enough, I WOULD solicit the author
	to see if they would let me see it.


	Moderators have responsibilities....there's no reason to ask them
	what was hidden, they shouldn't tell you.


	kathy

    
    Things to [dislike] today??
    
    Seems like mennotes has been a bit nasty lately.
    I wish it weren't. There's enough grief one can be subjected to
    elsewhere on the net. And I do hate to see the nitpicking, etc
    taking place here.
    
    Another....spending more than a week trying to solve a SCO-UNIX 
    NFS problem with deadlines looming.
    
    And the death of my dear departed 1977 coupe-de-boat. The old 400 cubic
    inch warhorse is still alive. Sadly, damn near everything else
    gave out at the same time.
    
    							Hank

 Give it a proper burial, Hank. :-)

    Yes a good Viking funeral is needed! With Wagner and the 'Walk of the
    Valalaka'. Great way to go!! :^) I wanna go that way myself!:)

    
    walk of the what?? wasn't it a ride, and weren't it valkyries doing
    the riding?
    
    

    Yes, your right agian. Its ride, not walk. I cannot remember things at
    this hour of the day. Gee, whats my name???

    I think "Walk of the Valalaka" is _inspired_! Instead of these large
    women in breastplates and helmets, the Valalaka are ordinary women
    dressed in simple cotton. Instead of that pompous music "DUUMMMM-DA,
    DA-DA-DA-DA-DUUMMMM-DA" the Valalaka sing "La la la" hence the name.
    Instead of carrying fallen warriors off to Valhalla, like Valkyries,
    the Valalaka take men to lunch and pick up the tab.

    
    >>the Valalaka take men to lunch and pick up the tab.
    
    this must only happen in operas..

    nope.
    
    now where's my speaw and magic hewmet?
    
    -Jody
    

    
    I hate (and I also like...I suppose) being too tired to fight, too
    tired to write anger-mongering notes, and too tired to sing the songs
    that some people expect me to sing.
    
    The litany is tired.  
    The task is sisyphean.  
    
    And so many eyes are shut so tightly to the possibility of acceptance -
    of newness, of sharing, of caring, of supporting people as they exist,
    rather than as it is thought they should be.
    
    -Jody
    

    ditto
    
    - Vick

    Ditto-ditto!
    
    Geo

    
    
    
    
      "NO TIME TO HATE!!!!!!!!"
    
    Spend your time love'n or on someother task!
    
     There is too much "hate" in this world as it is. Too just throw that
    word around i hate this i hate that just shows how lightly some people
    hate. Or is it that they don't think about the useage and how if
    affects the young.
    
    My 2 cents
    
     Deadhead Dave
      

    .33  Mike, too tired to write anger-mongering notes???  Since when.

    >  "NO TIME TO HATE!!!!!!!!"
    >
    >Spend your time love'n or on someother task!
    
    Dave, you put that shout in quotes.  And yet Jody didn't say that.  To
    what were you responding?
    
    						- Vick

    Mike does not get angry.  Mike gets sarcastic and funny then other
    people get angry.  Happens at least once a week around here.

	.36  - Vick
	
	I beieve he was quoting a line from a song.
	_Uncle John's Band_ by the Grateful Dead
	"Ain't no time to hate ..."
	
	NTTH,
	Jay

>    .33  Mike, too tired to write anger-mongering notes???  Since when.

 

    re .-1
    
    ditto

    .40  You might note that you haven't seen me in this file much in the
    last month or two.  Just too tired.
    						- Vick

 Is there a "things to like today"? :-)

    .43
    Make one.  You're entitled.  - Vick

    
    
    >>.40  You might note that you haven't seen me in this file much in the
    >>last month or two.  Just too tired.
    
    	I can relate -- I just got back ( last Saturday ) from a week on
    the beach in Florida, and I'm already in the mood for another vacation. 
    I *guess* I should be glad business is good..................
    
              GJD

    .46  For someone who doesn't anger-monger you sure do delight in 
    twisting the knife in people's guts.  
    						- Vick
    
    P.S.  For future reference, if I sign something "Herr Professor Doktor
    Vick" or "Ronald McDonald Vick" or something like that, take that as
    a clue that I'm not being very serious.  You will notice that I didn't
    sign myself as a moderator on that note.  You see, the guy was starting
    a note on degree bigotry and I have a Ph.D. you see, so ...  Oh
    nevermind, you aren't the only one who missed the point. 

Vick, you should know by now that some people have no sense of humor. :-)

Dan

 That begs the question- do the humorless know they are humorless?

    Do you?

 Ooh! It's Ironic Question Day! My favorite! :-)

re: .50

>>  That begs the question- do the humorless know they are humorless?

	Thats's NOT funny!!!   8^)


	Mark

    
    Re:36
    
     I was responding to the title of this note. Some times it so easy to
    use that word "hate". 
    
     Re:39
    
     You got Jay!
    
     Have a good time All.
    
    dave