Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    The issue could revolve on what each of your "perceived" standards"
    are as far as dirt. My Mother's mother was satisfied at nothing less
    than would put an operating room to shame. Granted, that is an extreme,
    but it does show that the idea of "clean" is not a subjective term.
    
    If things are legitimately dirty, then you need to convince your fian-
    cee that you have higher standards of cleanliness than he may have, and
    would appreciate if he could improve his. He may actually see nothing
    wrong with the way the house is now, so you need to do some level
    setting.
    
    Eric

    
    I have tried to define dirt.  ie:
    	the white film on the bathroom sink
    	drinking glass rings on the coffee table
    	crumbs on  the kitchen counter ...
    In his house however the sink wasn't dirty until the white scum from
    the toothpaste has turned to brown or grey scum; the coffee table was
    invisible for the magazines piled on top of it; and only open space on
    the kitchen counter was ever cleaned.  
    
    Rachael
    

In some ways I think you're waging a hopeless battle.  It's not a case of
"teaching him how to see dirt", it's a case of convincing him to change his
definition of "dirt" to yours.  And like with anything else, you can't change
someone, they can only change themselves.

Since you two seem to have different definitions of what dirt and clutter
are (I would not consider magazines on a table to be "dirt"), I would suggest
approaching it in a different fashion.  One idea would be to sit down and
agree on a cleaning schedule and how each type of cleaning is to be performed.
This does not require "seeing" dirt, but simply an acknowledgement that
cleaning is needed at certain intervals.

Another possibility, of course, is YOU changing YOUR definition of "dirt"
to be more in line with his.  I'd presume that this would not be acceptable
to you, though.

In reality, the problem isn't with him, it's with you.  You're the one
who is upset by the "dirt", not him.  If you can't get him to agree to
take on cleaning tasks in a manner that is acceptable to you, your
alternative is to simply do the cleaning yourself.  It may end up being
a lot less frustrating.  But be aware that the resentment you're building
may show up in other aspects of your relationship.

					Steve

Rachael,

As with most things resolving something like this means both
of you have to change your perception.

I was married for 9 years to someone who had standards of
cleanliness that approached an operating room.  While I wasn't
filthy, as far as she was concerned I was not good enough in
this regard.  Over the years I did improve, however I noticed
that she never loosened her standards in this regard.  Bit of
a warning here.

If you expect someone to change in some way, I believe it is
important to acknowledge change has occurred, assuming it does.
Also, it is important that both parties reach some agreement
on a middle ground.  Just because the other person says "Fine
I'll accept you point of view without modification", doesn't
mean they won't subsequently be disgruntled at having to change
later (doesn't mean they will either).

I think the best idea is the earlier one.  Draw up a list of
what needs to be done and when.  Make it a contract of sorts.
With rewards for work well done, or punishments for late
delivery.  Thinking up the rewards and the punishments can
be the best part of the whole procedure !!!  That way
everyone knows clearly what is expected of them, and exactly
when as opposed to "It has to be cleaned if it's grubby".

Bear in mind keeping the shine on your relationship is more important
than keeping it on your furniture - the latter is ALWAYS replaceable.

Bernard.

re: .-1
>In reality, the problem isn't with him, it's with you.

Well, that's a little unfair, Steve. It's really a problem of one person's
needs not being met by the other, and it happens on both sides. To invalidate
the need is to injure the person, just as criticizm for not meeting the need
injures the other.

Whenever needs are not being met, the first thing is to state the need in a
non-judgemental way. After discussion, perhaps some compromise will work.
As an example, perhaps "successive approximation" can be tried. (That is,
try getting little concessions, doing cleaning together, and so on.) More
can be accomplished by reward (compliment when the need IS met) than by
criticizm.

Good luck on a compromise.
John

    I agree with who ever it was that said it was your problem not his.
    After almost 13 years it still appears to me that my wife is washing
    perfectly clean floors. Or I am. Makes it hard to know if I'm doing
    a good job since I don't see a before and after difference. Still my
    wife does so when she asks me nicely to wash the floor I do. I doubt
    she'll ever see me do it unasked though. I know she'd like it but it
    never looks bad enough to wash before she either does it or asks me
    to.

    Your best hope is to get him to agree to take your word for it that
    something is dirty. Expecting him to see it without your help is like
    teaching the blind colors.

    			Alfred

    I'd say a list dividing up the chores, and including how often they
    should be done, would probably work.  Hey, it's a cooperative
    relationship, so you should share the work.  
    
    If your cleaning standards are VERY high, his efforts may fall short of
    the mark.  I'm not sure how you could handle it if this happened,
    because you can ask him to clean, but you can't make him do it YOUR
    way, he'll do it his way.
    
    I've lived with people whose tolerance for dirt was higher than mine. 
    With a little discussion, my tolerance was raised, and theirs was
    lowered, and we found a middle ground we were both comfortable with. 
    Generally I wound up doing a bit more of the work, but it was light
    work and I didn't mind.  It wasn't spic-and-span, but it wasn't ground
    zero.  It was pretty neat and pretty comfortable.
    
    -Jody
    

    What might help is making standards of "clean" objective, as others
    have mentioned already.
    
    E.g., if he does tasks A, B, and C sometime during the week, you agree
    that the bathroom is clean.  He doesn't have to be convinced to "see"
    the dirt, just agree to go through the motions of cleaning.  You both
    agree on operational definitions of "clean" for each area of the house. 
    Anything beyond this basic standard is up to you ...
    
    Pam

                        Hey, break the engagement.
    
                                 -dwight

    
    Thanks people!  I went home last night and my fiance was all prepared
    to clean.  HE asked ME if I wanted to clean and then offered to split
    the house up!  And all I had done was left a message on the answering
    machine that "if he was REAL bored, there was some dusting and other
    stuff to be done".  (He was home sick)  And,(ugh) I can see all of your 
    points that it's not a one-way street.  
    Thanks again!
    Rachael
    

    My husband was the same way...I even talked to his mother about
    it and she said it was her fault for always being their picking up
    after him.  This is what I did:
    
    . Made a list of the weekly house chores (xeroxed a bunch of copies)
    . Told him every week these are the things that have to be done.
      I don't care when, but they need to be done every week.  If something
      isn't done, it is carried over & highlighted to the next week.
    . Since I've found most men *hate* bathroom cleaning, I gave him
      a couple of chores he's responsible for every week in addition
      to what we both do on the list.  He vacuums & dusts and I do the
      bathrooms & kitchen floor.  Everything else is split.

      Note: he likes how it feels to cross off something on the list.
            Feels like he accomplished something.
    
    In the beginning I made him responsible for picking up and cleaning
    after me for 1 week....he realized "it ain't fun".  He started *seeing*
    the dirt, because if the house was dirty it was *his* responsibility
    and he took it personally...kind of like a failure.
    
    I also lowered my standards some and looked at it this way.  It
    may not be as good as I would have done it but it was done and I
    didn't have to do it.  I found it's hard work to *delegate*.  Think
    of it this way, if your boss asked you to do something and he said
    I would have done it this way and then changes what you've done,
    you'd say "why the heck did you ask me to do it in the first place?"
    
    K 

    
    	Really, A list indeed!! If I ever got such a list from 
    	someone detailing what, how, and when *I AM* to do
    	something, They'd get the list right back, put just where
    	the sun never shines!!!!!!!!
    
    	Hey, they treat ya like a child, might as well act it!

    Hire a cleaning person.
    
    --bonnie

Re: .12 & .13


Hey people, it's horses for courses.  I would have welcomed a list,
that way I know EXACTLY what's expected of me and when.  Drawing up
the list is something that's done together.  If I had been given a
list without consultation about its contents, that would be a different
thing.

A list also avoids the "but we agreed you'd do...." kind of game.

Basically whatever works for you.  I'm a list person for some things,
makes it easier for me to remember...what were we talking about - oh
yeah, cleaning !!

Bernard.

    The funny thing is, I wonder what HE would say if he knew what you are
    saying. Would he agree?  I doubt it, very much.

    hey guys...
    
    having a list of what should be done, a list that both parties can
    negotiate over, and where each can check off that something is done.,,
    
    produces a lot less nagging.. it is a neutral reminder of what is
    needed eliminates a lot of the verbal recriminations..
    
    Bonnie

    As long as the list is mutually negotiated, it can work, but if
    the tidier partner (in our family, Neil) lays down a list of
    chores for the sloppier partner (me), you're going to have a long,
    drawn-out war.
    
    And the person doing the chores has to have control over when and
    how the chores are done.  You can agree on a frequency (once a
    week, once a month, whenever company comes over) but within that
    framework, it shouldn't matter whether the floors get mopped on
    Friday or on Monday.
    
    We've got one major rule:  whoever cooks doesn't have to clean up. 
    And the principle we used for dividing chores (our list exists
    only in our heads) was that if one person loathes doing a chore
    and the other one doesn't care, the spouse that doesn't care does
    it.  Doing laundry can ruin my whole week.  I'll be down to my
    last pair of jeans before I even look at the washer.  It doesn't
    bother Neil, so he does the laundry.  On the other hand, the
    refrigerator could crawl out the door on a squish of green slime
    before he'd consider cleaning it, so I clean the refrigerator. 
    And so on.
    
    --bonnie

    Just to clear up a little confusion and put things back into 
    perspective in regards to .11
    
    My husband asked for the list...he said it's hard for him to remember
    what needs to be done and what's been done....and other replies are 
    right, no one has to nag about it and waste time discussing chores....
    and no, I don't hand him the list, we just leave it on the frig as a 
    TO DO list...  
    
    Some of the replies surprised me.  I never thought making out a
    list was *threatening* to a person's ego....and never thought feeling
    a sense of accomplishment no matter how trivial was *childish*.    
        
    Lighten up, huh?

    

    One more addition to .21....there are no names beside the chores.
    They're just listed and crossed off when done...because we don't
    *assign* names, we need the list to find out what we did or need
    to do.

    Personally, I feel that comments like "I trained mine" have alot of
    different connotations.  Such as a dog and a child.  
    
    I don't think that it was threatening, it was more along the lines of
    condencending, if not a downright stab.  Using the ole "men don't do
    cleaning" and, "A man doesn't know what to do unless I tell him", or
    even "I've trained my husband to do exactly what I want".  
    
    Try and think of your note dirrected at you instead, maybe you'll see
    it differently.
    
    
    

RE: .21

I don't think it's the idea of the list so much as it is the idea that 
"you trained him"

kath

    "I trained mine" was meant as a joke...my husband thought it was
    rather funny....but some people took offense, and I apologize, that
    was not my intention...guess I should of inserted a smily face.  (In
    actuality I was the one that was trained!)
    
    I would also like to mention that I never directed the chore issue to 
    *men* (.23).  I have a lot of female friends that look at chores as a 
    once a year event....also the comment *I trained mine* does not refer to
    gender either...
    
    Ever see the movie with Sandra Dee & Bobby Darin where she takes
    a book "How to train your puppy" and applies it to her husband?
    (Can't remember the name).  When he found out he was humiliated
    and Dee's mother told her, he's not the one you trained; you trained
    yourself....

    re .21
    
    You are talking to some people who must correct everyone's spelling,
    talk about ego.

    Another suggestion to help out with housely duties...
    (I think the list is a good idea)
    
    First of all, Our biggest problem in our house is the DISHES!
    if the dishes are clean usually the rest of the house is clean.
    
    We used to leave those suckers there till things grew out of them.
    Yeah...Its pretty gross...and we both had some really scary times
    in front of that sink. So what we established was a neet little
    system. You do them one day, I'll do them the next. If I wait an
    extra day to do my dishes, fine, but I am gonna have an extra days
    worth of dishes to do. HIM on the other hand, waits a week, but
    still, I let him sit in front of that sink and do them all, if it
    takes an hour. Same with me...I was at the sink for 45 minutes this
    weekend. Silly, I know, but it has been working. If one of us is
    sick, we do eachothers share of dishes. Or if I feel nice, I'll
    do his dishes...Like, I vaulenteered to do the dishes all week this
    week because he had a megaload last week.
    
    that works...
    as for every thing elts, well, one of you has to either lower your
    expectations, or do more. My choice would be the lower...We have
    2 kids...I can honestly say that my house is tolorably sanitary,
    my upbringing tells me that the place is slime, but HEY...ya gutta
    take light of these things, bigger and more important problems are
    on their way that need attention...not who's turn it is to do the
    laundry.
    
    Mar_who_has_been_living_with_her_ole_man_for_2_years_and_has_learned
    to_ignor_coffee_stains_on_the_coffee_table
    
    

    
>    Some of the replies surprised me.  I never thought making out a
>    list was *threatening* to a person's ego....and never thought feeling
>    a sense of accomplishment no matter how trivial was *childish*.    
>        
>    Lighten up, huh?

The replies don't surprise me, and I could relate to them.  The only
thing that I wish is that they were clearer as to what they were
objecting to.  

I may be wrong, but I saw the replies objecting to the tone of your
writing, not the simple fact of the existance of a list.  I carry a
lot of baggage, as a male, about housework.  I think that older
generations of men were hit with the "not men's work" gender
conditioning.  Younger generations of men were hit with an additional
"You guys are terrible at house work" and "When it comes to housework, 
you are so irresponsible" as part of our conditioning. 

When I read a tone that pushes either of those buttons (reread your
original note and apply a sarcastic tone of voice to it, and you will
get an idea of how a lot of men might have read your note), I bristle. 
(I learned a lot about why people responded "strangely" to my notes 
until someone gave me the advice to read them with an angry tone; now, 
I reread my notes with an angry tone to make sure that the wording 
implies any gentleness or complexity that I might be feeling but not 
expressing.)

Again, it isn't your method.  It's your writing and your audience.  
(In my opinion.)

							--Ger

The whole thing get's ludicrous when I consider that there are men who are
definitely better housekeepers (while holding a full-time job) than woman.
I had such a roommate. It was really an education (and an irritation). He
used to follow people around the room with an ashtray, doing his best to
catch their ashes. He let you know where you were dirtying things, as sson
as you dirtied them. What a guy... He has gone thru about 8 years of psycho-
therapy and over the years his cleaning became less profound to others, but
no less effective. Basically, he got socialized. But his chrome still shines.
No, I don't consider myself healthier than him, only wish that his habits had
rubbed off a little more. It's nice to notice what he get's accomplished.

I would prefer to think of this as an individual issue. Yes, I can notice that
in my upbringing I was not expected to do cleaning, and my sister was. I do
note, however that my son and daughter get no exceptions based on gender (but
don't think society won't have it's influence). 

I just got back from visiting friends for New Years. The guy asked me to come
upstairs to the bedroom to listen to his new White Noise generator for bedtime
sounds. While we sat there I couldn't help notice the heavy musky smell (B.O.
Plenty). I looked around at the piles of clothes everywhere. I quickly estimated
how many hours it would take to figure out whether the smell was coming from one
spot or was simply cumulative. As I got up from the bed I realized that it 
was kind of a kicker that the blanket wasn't spread out at all. The only time
they do this is when they use it... God ! They sure don't waste time cleaning
when they don't have to...

I can't help but look at this as an issue of relationship, not sex differences.
What do you do when you aren't satisfied with this other person who is sharing
space with you, because they aren't like you in some particularly hard to ignore
way? It seems to become ludicrous that so much energy can be misspent around an
issue like cleaning, but then again it really doesn't matter what the issue is
if it feels important to someone and the relationship is to continue. I'll
wager that most people move on past cleaning in the early stages of a relationship
and then come back to it when it seems like one of the few things that might
make them happier if they could resolve it.

Some early romantic dialogue:

J:Oh, Romeo, I love thee like a rose loves the raindrops, but your rain clouds
seem to always pass thru a pig farm on their way over here. Goodbye!

A:If you don't clean your apartment before I come over, I won't bother coming !
B: Fine, let's meet at your place !

C:(Wow, isn't it nice taking a bath together !)
D:(Wonderful, now I can enjoy my sense of smell again !)

    	Rachael,
    
    	   I have a very small piece of advice for you... count your 
    	blessings.
    
    	   Your notes reminded me of what it was like being a child 
    	with my grandmother hovering over me, reminding me what a 
    	slob I was for not cleaning my room every day.  I rebelled.
    	I really *did* become a slob.
    
    	   I dust my furniture once every three or four months.  By
    	then, the dust is so thick you can't see through the glass 
    	table tops any more.  I vacuum my carpet twice a year, mainly
    	to pick up all the dog hair.  I never, I repeat, never clean
    	my bathrooms.  The rings in my toilets are now harder than the
    	porcelain on which it is attached.  The scum in the shower is
    	growing hair now.  Do I care?  Not in the least.  I see the 
    	filth, I'm just not bothered by it.
    
    	   That, I think, is one of the basic problems.  Apathy.  It's
    	easier to dim the lights and not see the filth than it is to
    	actually do something about it.  It's so bad now that I light
    	my entire apartment with one 40-watt bulb... and I'm thinking
    	about moving to a 15-watt bulb.
    
    	   Like I said, count your blessings.  At least you've found 
    	someone who'll put up with your neatnick ways (and subtle
    	nagging).  Some of us are less tolerant of such nonsense.
    
    	- Greg

    
    
    re .18
    
    If you are referring to me, He DOES know that our cleaning needs
    differ.  He is the one who said that he doesn't see the dirt.
    
    re .31
    
    The reason that I am trying to work out cleaning now, is so that I
    won't be a "nag".  I don't "hover over" him.  I don't inspect his work. 
    Since I know that he doesn't see the mess, I have to ask and/or hint.
    I don't treat him like child.  By the way, he gets to hint and ask
    about the way I spend money, so this isn't a parent-child relationship.
    
    set tone=calm
    And I do count my blessings.  I am very greatful that he is willing to
    work this out and I always say "thank you".
    
    _____
    
    Thanks again, all for your advise.  We may sit down and work, together,
    on a cleaning chart.
    
    Rachael
    

    Dear Rachel,
    Let me share a couple of things my husband taught me about our
    differing standards of "clean"-
    
    #1, if we agreed that he had responsibility for cleaning something, HE
    owned it.  It got done when he thought it needed to be done.  When we
    agreed that he had that responsibility, we also agreed that I DIDN'T.
    
    #2, if the issue is just cleaning up the house, please consider hiring
    a maid service.  You'd be amazed at what can be accomplished by a $20
    or $30 outlay.
    
    #3, compromise about housecleaning is a lot easier to reach when the
    only agenda is a mutual objective to get the house clean, and there are
    no hidden agendas about changing each other's standards.
    
    "Take what you can use and leave the rest."
    
    Regards,
    Lynn

    Rachael:
    
    You new this was coming "Do you change the oil in your car?" etc..
    
    .11 Did he agree that you make the rules?
    
    My wife and I have this thing, that if we don't like the way the other
    person has performed (cleaning the dishes, the toilet) we yell 
    "Quality control reject" and then do it ourself.
    
    It seems that as time goes by the definitions, who does what, when
    becomes clearer, but never is fully defined.  But thats OK.
    
    My opinion "My" is don't worry, and don't make a list becuase life has
    too many uncertainties and that can be a source of arguments.  If he
    sees you cleaning does he sit there and watch?
    
    I could tell you how my wife and worked things out, but that won't help
    you.  I could also tell you that when you have children things (chores,
    time) get tougher.
    
    The bottom line is don't try to change each other, it won't work. 
    Accept it and do it yourself, accept it and hire a maid, or loose
    him and do it your self, or loose him and hire a maid.
    
    Good luck
    
    
    

    I heard on one of the afternoon talk shows (Donahue, Oprah, etc)
    that "nit-picking" over issues such as cleaning, taking out the
    trash, and being a couch spud are signs of a deeper problem in the
    relationship.  I agree.  I'm not saying it's terminal, just that
    these complaints might be the tip of the iceberg with the real problem
    being below the waterline.
    
    Forget the lists - if talking it out won't work, a list will make
    it more like a list of chores left by Mom .... I rarely did mine
    without a lot of nagging.
    
    And finally, a point brought to my attention by my wife.  I play
    guitar and have a habit of leaving all my guitar gadgets, cords,
    whatever laying all around the living room.  Not really making a
    mess but definitely nit blending in with a country decor.  So one
    evening after I finished making some noise I started putting all
    my "toys" in the closet, and my wife asked why.  I told her that my
    ex-wife used to have a hissy fit when everything wasn't "in it's
    place".   My wife smiled and said, ".. well, she doesn't have to
    worry about that anymore does she ?".  My guitar stuff is resting
    proudly beside an antique desk right now.   So keep in mind that
    there might be someone out there that would love to have his coffee
    cup stains on her coffee table.
    
    
    
    					Jerry

    
    Lawd, what women try to do to men to get 'em to conform...!
    
    Men are always made to feel guilty because of *womens* cleaning
    and nesting instincts (Dirt is part of nature. things grow in
    it. It is evidence of a lively, non sterile environment).
    
    Then, if they don't feel guilty enough, they bring on *lists*!!!
    
    G*d's most formidible (from a man's point of view) creation is a 
    woman with a list in her hands!! 
    
    I am so glad, at times like this, to be, not a prisoner, but a free man...
    

    There is hope however - my wife isn't a "list maker" but then again,
    we work together and don't need lists.  My suggestion is, if you
    become involved with a "list maker", quickly cross her off of yours.
    Or maybe roll it up and pop her gently on the nose with it ... 8^)
    
    
    
    				Jerry

    re last few about lists and how obnoxious they and women are for being
    domestic dictators...(!)
    
    Umm, I think that if you look back through replies you will see that
    although lists are NOT welcome to you and some other people, they ARE
    welcome to some people.  Some men have actually _requested_ lists.
    Reasons to LIKE lists:
    
    o  you don't have to guess or read minds
    o  you know what's been done already and doesn't need re-doing
    o  you have agreed on an operational definition of what "clean" is
    
    So it's not that lists are always obnoxious, just that they don't work
    for you or you don't need them.  Different things work for different
    people.  It's also been said several times that lists are best when the
    two people involved sit down TOGETHER and decide how things should be
    handled.  Why always *assume* that the woman is shoving a long, unfair
    list of ridiculous chores at the man without his consent??!  
    
    For what it's worth, I used a list when I roomed with two female
    roommates.  We all sat down and drew up the list together, so it's not
    like any one person dictated to the others.  One woman was very neat,
    one woman was very messy, and one woman was in-between (and I'm not
    telling which one I was!).  It worked fine for us for 3 years.
    Pam

    Just to show that shoes can sometimes go onto either of two feet:
    
    I had to teach a woman that it is not proper to bake and then leave
    the kitchen a mess: dirty dishes, pans, piles of spilled flour on the
    counter.  She does a lot better now.
    
    (I can agree with an earlier note wherein the non-cook cleans up for
    the cook, if that's by prior agreement but I don't think it's fair for
    one person to say, "I feel like baking" and then leave the place a mess
    for the other person.)
    
    ed

    	My ex-husband was undoubtedly the most obsessive person I've
    	ever met when it comes to having a clean house.  He was a 19
    	year old rock-n-roller, substance abuser, and hot rodder when
    	we first moved in together, and he was 21 when we got married,
    	but he was as orderly and meticulous around the house every day
    	we spent together as my Mother (and we shared the cleaning 
    	very fairly, for the most part.)
    
    	Our house was so clean that "dirt" was cleaned away long before
    	it ever became visible to the eye.  We dusted every day, and
    	vacuumed every other day - and the bathrooms and kitchen were 
    	spotless before we went to bed.  As for clutter, we only brought
    	possessions out for use at the moment - everything else was always
    	put away.  Our home was so neat that it looked like no one lived
    	there, which I knew was a bit obsessive, but I agreed to it.
    
    	It wouldn't have been a problem for me at all if it weren't for
    	the existence of another serious character flaw that my ex had.
    
    	Once he saw someone in a bad light (for whatever reason,) he
    	would become hypercritical of that person (so that *nothing* the
    	person said or did was right, no matter *how* innocuous the person's 
    	words or actions were, and no matter *how* hard the person was trying 
    	to be reasonable.)  It was during those times that the house could 
    	not be clean enough for him, no matter how spotless it was.
    
    	I don't care how clean or dirty a mate is - I consider it far worse
    	for the person to be in the mode of "Nothing you will ever do or say
    	will ever be right."  That's the point at which you say, "Goodbye"
    	(because it's useless to try to get along with someone who has made
    	up his/her mind that it can't be done.)
    
    	Cleanliness (or the lack thereof) is a small potatoes issue, as
    	far as I'm concerned.  If the two people care about each other and
    	want to make it work, the cleanliness problems can be handled.
    
    	There are many other things worse than not having the same standards
    	of cleanliness.

    re -1 
    
    				Bravo !
                                
    
    
    				Jerry

    If you love someone, you want them to be happy.
    If she says "Its dirty", I clean - so she's happy.
    If I say "Too loud", she turns it down - so I'm happy.
    
    Whats the problem?
    
    Adam.

I've just caught up with this topic, and I think it's great because it's such
a common experience - we've all been in there somewhere.

replies .41 and .43 come very close to how I feel, and this is it:

1. You can argue forever about whether the bathroom (for example) "should"
be cleaned once a week, once a day or once a month. Everyone has their own
ideas from their upbringing, and they probably won't change. there is no 
objective standard.

2. The facts that both *can* accept are their FEELINGS about the issue, and
the challenge is to acknowledge the other person's feelings and show it by
working WITH them to find a practical solution - that's what the 
negotiated lists or other talked out agreements do. If you DO care for the 
other person, you care about their feelings, and you want to respond to
bad feelings.

3. The serious stuff behind the cleaning argument is the hidden agenda or
manipulation like:

"This place is disgusting (and if you don;t agree with me you're a lazy 
and evil person, and I won't love you)".

"You never do any cleaning (so I don;t believe you love me)".

And so on....

John

    
    	   Hiring a maid sounds like a good idea, but the last time
    	I tried she fled in mortal terror after taking one look at
    	my place.  I guess I could call another service, but since 
    	the filth doesn't really bother me, why should I bother with it?
    
    	- Greg

    	RE: Cleaning services
    
    	Actually, that's what I've been using since a few years after
    	my divorce.  The cleaning service comes in every two weeks to
    	do a deep clean, so the surface cleaning that my son and I do
    	in the meantime doesn't amount to much effort at all.
    
    	Having a spotless house without having to do the work myself (and 
    	without having to get on anyone else's case to do it either) is
    	the best solution, as far as I'm concerned.  The $70 or so that I
    	pay the cleaning service per month is worth every cent, especially
    	since we have cats that shed year round (24 hours per day, it seems
    	like.)  :-)  The workers do a consistently beautiful job.
    
    	Living in a clean house is nice.  It's only the hassles involved
    	with it that I refuse to tolerate in my life.

    Everybody talks about lists etc. You are both working? Get a cleaner,
    and spend the newly available time doing some really nice things
    together, which dont need lists and dont cost money. Get the picture?
    
    Have fun
    Heinrich

    A cleaning person is a great present to yourself, if you can afford it.
    My wife and I are not extravagant at all; neither of us cares
    much about clothes, or luxuries, or fancy cars, or anything
    else, but we treat ourselves by hiring a cleaning person to come
    in and make order out of chaos once a week.  Neither of us are
    particularly neat, so having somebody come in guarantees that
    the bathrooms get cleaned and the rugs get vacuumed and the kitchen
    floor gets washed.
    
    One thing we both try to do now is clean up after ourselves; when
    I look at my mail, for example, I try to take care of it THEN 
    (pay the bills, throw out the junk, etc.) instead of leaving
    pieces of it on the kitchen table for "later."  It's always a
    struggle though.  Realize that somebody who is not neat is not
    deliberately making a mess to annoy you; it's HARD for them to
    deal with things in an orderly (neat) manner.  At least it is
    for me.