Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I must be one of those "other" woman - because I genuinely like men.
    I would rather have a man as a best friend than a woman, but I do
    think that the role of men (like that of women) have changed
    substantially since the 50's.
    
    I do not think of men as cruel or egotistical (as a rule).  Naturally,
    there are exceptions to every rule.
    
    I think that the "cross section" that Bryant Bumble (good name for him)
    referenced were those women who are divorced, and bitter, and don't
    have a life of their own.  No one that is truly happy with
    herself/himself would have made such stupid (stereotypical-type)
    comments.
    
    End of sermon.
    
    Barb
    

    Is Bryant Bumbel (I like that name also) starting to use the same 
    bookers that Oprah and Phil-baby employ?
    
      Alan 

    I think a lot of men are cruel and egotistical, but I think a lot
    of women are, too!  Maybe I just don't like people?
    
    However, I think Bryant Gumbel is cute. :-)  so stop making fun
    of him.
    
    Lorna
    

    The basenote sounds to me like a slightly confused summary of some
    results of a recent poll by the Roper organization.  The survey
    questioned women in the U.S, (no, I don't know how many) with the same
    questions that were used in a survey 20 years ago.  The survey found
    significant changes in women's perceptions of men.  This was reported
    on the front page of the San Jose Mercury News this morning, and I'll
    try to get some further extracts from the article later.
    
    Meanwhile, I suggest the basenote author or a moderator change the
    title to something like "new Roper poll on women's perceptions of men". 
    
    DougO

    
    
    re .0
    
    I too like men and prefer to have them as friends than women.  I think
    part of that was due to my upbringing (raised with 2 brothers and two
    male cousins).  But I find woman to be so petty, mind you not all of
    them, but quite a few.
    
    There are just as many men who are jerks as there are women.  The only
    difference is in the approach.  The men who are jerks tend to show
    it openly, whereas the woman who are jerks do it in a manner that
    is not so noticeable (with the one exception being those ex-wives
    who are out to destroy thier ex husbands --  they are very blantent!).
    
    re -1
    
    Of course the answers will be different.  In the past 20 years woman's
    roles have changed drastically.  They are no longer settling for the
    few options available to them at that time.  Anyone now can do whatever
    they set their mind to.  
    
    I think part of the reason why the answers may be negative is that
    women now a days are interacting on a daily basis with men that they
    may not have been 20 years ago.  So they are getting to see what
    men outside their families are like.  It makes sense that the more
    of one type of folks one sees, the more input to come to some sort
    of opinion one receives.  
    
    I think this too is seen by men towards women.  With more women in the
    workforce, there are that many more women for men to interact with
    to provide input to come to opinions.  So it works both ways.
    
    Michele

    My question when I head about these results was, are men worse
    then they were or have the requirements women place on men changed
    and become harder? I believe that men have changed for the good
    over the last 20 years. I also believe that they have not changed
    as fast as women's demands on them have changed.

    To be fair the Roper organization should poll men, using the same
    questions as 20 years ago, on how they perceive women. I suspect
    women today would receive a far more negative rating today then
    20 years ago. The next question is would women be as supportive
    of women changing to improve men's perceptions as they are that
    men change to meet there demands? I doubt it.

    		Alfred

My thoughts on some of the questions posed by the survey.

MEN ARE MEAN:
	Anger and intensity are often mistaken for meanness.
	Men, especially in the work place or school, who have
	a more carefree and relaxed attitude are often looked
	on as not being serious about their job or academics.

MEN ARE INSENSITIVE:
	Men as head of family and as management often have to
	make the hard decisions between the lesser of two
	evils and have to be the one to say 'no'.  It's often
	a loose-loose situation.  Someone is going to get hurt
	no matter what the decision.

MEN ARE SELFISH:
	What is it anyway that makes a man work all day only
	to see most of his pay go to the care and support of
	someone else--wife and children.

MEN ARE MANIPULATIVE:
	The most manipulative group in our society--CHILDREN.
	Followed closely by women.  Manipulation is the woman's
	main weapon.  Men tend to be more open and up front
	with their actions.

ALL MEN THINK ABOUT IS SEX:
	Maybe that's why women spend so much on cloths, make up,
	perfume, etc, etc, etc.  Ever wonder what would happen
	if men suddenly lost their sex drive?  See Selfish.

MEN ARE LAZY:
	Why is it that the OpraHeraldoPhilIac daytime shows are
	doing so well?  It's the WOMEN who are sitting and
	watching them.

void fred(){} (C program.  Takes no input, does nothing, returns nothing:^)
    

    re .6, I think most women have been changing to please men for generations
    and now many of them are sick of it.  Maybe these women think it's
    time for men to take a turn at changing to please women.
    
    re .5, trust me, not all men are blatant about being jerks.
    
    Personally, I can't understand anyone saying that they prefer to
    have all their friends be either men or women.  Humans are individuals.
     Some of my friends are women and some are men.  I don't pick my
    friends because of their sex.  I pick them because of the way we
    connect as people.
    
    Lorna
    

    And maybe these SO CALLED women have better get their eyes checked
    Lorna.  What the hell have men been doing all of these years???
    
    doing everything for themselves???  I doubt it.  Women are selfish
    period.  

     re -1
    
    
    WHAT the hell have men been doing all these years????
    
    
    Are you saying that all men have been changing to please women?

I read an article yesterday that discussed the poll, and it quoted the
researchers as saying that the differences were largely due to higher
expectations.

However, I also feel that if men were asked the same questions about women,
the answers would be much the same.

One interesting note - the study was commissioned by the makers of
Virginia Slims cigarettes - no doubt to be used as copy for their next ad.
This is one area where women have lost BIG in the last twenty years!

				Steve

I relate to the responses cited in the poll.  My opinion of men (gay,
heterosexual, and bi), in general, is negative; what I mean by this is
that I prepare for each man to be self-centered, to be conservative,
to argue "logic" when the real issue is emotional, to avoid intimacy,
to be aggressive, to favor hierarchy over consensus, to cover up
tension and conflict with jokes, and to exclude, but I leave the
option open for individual men not to be this way.  Once in a while, I
get surprised, but not that often.  My life goes very smoothly
operating this way.  If I notice a shift in the way that men generally
behave, I will shift my expectations. 

Also, most of my close friends are women (not by conscious design, but
it certainly does say something). 

I've also decided that I need to understand men better.  In response 
to that, I'm going to lots of men's seminars, moderating MENNOTES, 
forming a men's Core Group, working to form men's groups at ZKO, 
reading whatever I can get my hands on RE men's issues, and trying to 
spend more time with men (when I usually gravitate toward women).

My attitude about men reminds me of a quote from a short story that I
like: "Semantically speaking, 'homophobia' really means 'fear of the
same': lawyers being afraid of lawyers, bankers being afraid of
bankers, and men being afraid of men."  This from another short story:
"Dear, _try_ not to hate your home so much." 


							--Gerry

    
    This poll doesn't offer me a whole lot of hope for the
    future. Seems as if people are squaring off more and more
    in our society and that worries me.
    
    							Hank
    
    ps I've a few other thought that I'll offer later.

>  Are you saying that all men have been changing to please women?

	All men? No. Most men? Perhaps. A lot of men? With out a doubt.
	Very few men, in the US at least, have the same outmoded ideas
	of a woman's place that our grandfathers did. Most men expect to
	help more around the house. Not as much as women might like perhaps
	but a lot more then 20 years ago.

			Alfred

    
    Hi Alfred,
    
    	You bring up some good points. Most men I know are also
    	doing more and more for their wives and families.
    	Even my father is helping around the house now and
    	for his generation, it really is kind of unheard of.
    
    	I do wonder if this a result of the anti-male rhetoric
    	we've been subjected to for the last couple of decades.
    	
    							Hank

    
    I don't think it's the anti-male rhetoric Hank.I think it maybe
    stems from the fact that we (males)see that two incomes are so damn
    necessary to survive thses days,therefore why should the women be
    expected to hold down a job and all the household/family obligations
    as well.
    My Dad was from the old country(Europe) definately not from todays
    world yet when he retired from farming he picked up the vacuum cleaner
    laundry basket and frying pan etc etc right along with my Mom and
    never thought it wasn't his job as well.He always did even during
    slack times on the farm,he'd cook and do the household chores when
    we were all home yet.
    I do it as well at home myself cook,clean,laundry( I don't do
    windows).I'm not crazy about it but the work has to be shared
    with both of us working full time and having two kids to raise.
                                   

	When I read about this survey in the newspaper, I was immediately
	reminded of a book I read recently, titled "Why Jenny Can't Lead"
	(I understand newer editions have been re-titled), written by two
	women, about why women in general have a difficult time succeeding
	in the male-dominated workplace.

	The book describes that women in general have a different approach 
	to their jobs than men.  Women generally work hard and then sit
	back and expect to be rewarded whereas men are more aggressive/
	assertive about getting rewarded for a job well done.  And while
	women think they're playing by the same rules as men in the workplace, 
	most of them really aren't and they don't even know they aren't.

	Given the theme of this book plus the fact that there are more 
	women in the workforce than there were 20 years ago, I believe the
	more negative survey results today may be in part a result of the
	frustration felt by a larger number of women who are having
	difficulty achieving the same level of career success as their
	male counterparts and don't understand why.

						Tom

    	Although I've never responded to a survey about men in general,
    	I honestly wouldn't know how to answer the questions I've seen
    	posted so far.
    
    	Are men selfish?  How can anyone say that "men are selfish" or
    	"women are selfish"?  You might as well ask "are people selfish?"
    
    	Some are, and some aren't.  It's pretty much an individual thing.
    
    	I wouldn't regard most people I know as selfish, but then I haven't
    	lived with most of them (so who knows?)  
    
    	My Dad has never been selfish.  He's a Prince.  But he's also my Dad,
    	so I probably see him in a different light than most other people do.
    
    	It sounds to me as though these surveys are designed to sell books
    	and get TV ratings (over the controversy surrounding how men and
    	women view each other's characters.)  They're banking on the idea
    	that some people will react with, "What???  Women think men are
    	selfish??  WOMEN are selfish!!  Let me see that survey!" (It sells.)
    
    	It's possible to detect trends and attitudes on a cultural level,
    	but when it comes to making generalizations about anyone's character,
    	it's bound to be inaccurate (and often unfair.)
    
    	It's the same problem I have when I hear people from other countries
    	characterize Americans as selfish or whatever.  Cultural attitudes
    	are different from the character analyses of individuals, as far as 
    	I'm concerned.  While it may be possible to say that Americans tend
    	to place great emphasis on material wealth, I don't think it's fair
    	to say that this means American citizens are shallow and greedy.
    
    	At any rate, I never read surveys like the one mentioned in the
    	basenote.  They can sell it to someone else, as far as I'm concerned.

    Suzanne......I (gulp) agree with you that this "information" from
    the Roper Poll is nothing more than fodder for the Donahues, Oprahs,
    Geraldos, and Sally Jessis.
    
    Margery Eagan had a column in the Sunday Herald that sort of explained
    in part, the information. She said that in the 50's if Dad didn't
    stop on the way home from work on Friday at some bar or the racetrack,
    the wife was considered 'lucky'.  Etc. Etc... The wife was also
    carrying a 30 lb 2 year old in one arm and an 18lb infant in the
    other. 
    
    Now these women are working and more vocal. They are better read,
    opinionated and expect that men share the load at home. They don't
    hear about a tough day on the road or at he office because they
    are at the office and on the road. The traveling salesmen stories
    etc. no longer are causing fear in women, because they are a growing
    sales force.
    
    Her last paragraph said that women should beware. That there are
    865 shelters for battered women and 12,000 for man's best friend.
    (or something to that effect)
    
    Interesting column.
    
    Ken

    I promised to try to get some extracts, and I did keep that issue of
    the paper, so here are some quotes from a page 1 story in the S.J. 
    Mercury News edition of 26 Apr 90:
    
    DougO
    ...
    The Roper Organization poll found growing numbers of women expressing
    sensitivity to sexism and unhappiness with men on many issues.  It
    compared data from identical questions asked 20 years ago.
    ...
    The survey, financed by Philip Morris USA in the name of its Virginia
    Slims cigarettes, was conducted July 22 through Aug 12 by in-person
    interviews with a random sample of women across the country.  It had a
    margin of error of plus or minus two percentage points.
    ...
    In 1970...two-thirds of women agreed that 'most men are basically
    kind, gentle, and thoughtful.'  In the new poll, only half of the 
    3000 women who were surveyed agreed.
    ...
    'Women's growing dissatisfaction with men is undoubtedly derived from
    their own rising expectations', the survey's authors said."
    ...
    Most women rated men negatively on their egos, libidos, and
    domesticity.  Sizable minorities went further: 42 percent, for
    instance, called men 'basically selfish and self-centered.'
    ...
    Fifty-four percent of the women surveyed agreed that 'most men look at
    a women and immediately think how it would be to go to bed with her.'
    In 1970, 41 percent had agreed.
    ...
    [representing a table of statements, and each years percentage of
    respondents who agreed with the statement:]
    
    I resent women being looked upon as just sex symbols.
    1970- 66%         1990- 80%
    
    It annoys me to be called a "girl".
    1970- 31%         1990- 55%
    
    Most men think only their own opinions are important.
    1970- 50%         1990- 58%
    
    Most men find it necessary for their egos to keep women down.
    1970- 49%         1990- 55%                           
    ---------------------------[end of table]---------------------
    ...
    Sixty-one percent were annoyed by pictures of nude women in men's
    magazines, up from 43 percent. 
    ...
    More than nine in 10 women said marriage is better than living alone.
         

 The results of the poll are hardly surprising. I agree that a similar poll
conducted of men would show similar results.

 I continue to hope that as people become more used to equality that the
rising tensions between men and women will dissipate, and not continue to
escalate. If not, the future of the human race looks rather tenuous...

 It may hurt to set a broken bone, but true healing cannot occur without that
initial pain...

 The Doctah

    	
    	By the way, I think the survey would have been more useful if
    	they had concentrated on questions about how women like to be
    	treated (rather than on judgments about others.)  A similar
    	survey given to men would be just as useful.
    
    	Surveys like these might help women and men to understand each
    	other better, although I doubt they would "sell" as well.