Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I never use "boy" to a male over the age of 12 unless I'm being
    patronizing or insulting. Sometimes the insult is more of a "we're
    among friends" kind of friendly insult, but I never use the term
    "boy" in a serious conversation.
    
    	-- Charles

         All depends on the context. If someone in a sarcastic or
    mocking tone says, "hey boy!", then the hair on the back of my
    neck stand up. 
         I was at a meeting a long while back and after break, the
    leader clapped his hands and said, "ok boys and girls, back to
    business!" None of the men found this offensive, but a couple
    of the women went to personnel over it. Women get all bent out
    of shape if you call them girls, ladies or miss. I was in a
    department store and went up to the counter, "excuse me miss,
    but where can I find .........?" She got all ruffled and said,
    "I'm not a miss!"
         Should a man get upset when the woman he's seeing refers to
    him as her *BOYfriend* As far as blacks go, it's ok for them to
    call one another boy, in a kidding way. As before, it'a all in
    the way it's presented.
    
    Ray

    prior  to  moving to America I had a very clear picture on this: the 
    ladies  I  dated were my girlfriends, and I was their boyfriend.  No 
    problem. 
    
    Had another male called me boy I'd of hospitalized him...
    
    Had  a  girl  who  I  wasn't  dating done so I'd have been "slightly 
    annoyed". 
    
    Now  I'm  in  America  I avoid the terms "boy" and "girl" as much as 
    possible ... you yanks are sooooo sensitive :-)
    
    On the side issue of "lady" and "miss" ...  I was brought up to call 
    any  female  that  I  had  not  been introduced to "a lady" and when 
    speaking to her address her as either "miss" or "ma'am" depending on 
    age (if she was clearly much older than me then ma'am, else miss). I 
    still  feel  this  is  no  more  than  one  of  the graces of social 
    intercourse, and I do not see why it annoys people, but I'm learning 
    not to do it. sigh... life gets blander and blander.
    
    /. Ian .\

The plural "boys" is used in an inclusionary way a lot of
the time.

"Us boys will go make supper while you girls get the fire
going."
{or}
"Me and the boys will be happy to clean your clock for
you, pal."

Invokes solidarity, etc.

    
    
    	In this case I don't think it's what you say, but how
    	you say it.
    
    
    	C.
    
    
    

    I don't mind (in fact I enjoy) being 'one of the boys'.  But, if
    someone, in refering to me, says something like "Oh, you boys..."
    or something like that, I will admit getting a little bent out of
    shape.  I guess its the intent that counts.
    
    Jeff

    uhh overlooked one important point
    
    there are five stages in a woman's life.
    baby
    young woman
    young woman
    young woman
    young woman

    .7
    sorry Kerry, not any more - being over 40 is neat. I wouldn't
    be a "young woman" with all that implies again for anything.

    Yup! It's all in the presentation. 
    I go fishing with "the boys". I don't address any one of them as
    boy. We address each other with a variety of names that I won't
    repeat here. Some of "the boys" are black and don't ever object
    to as "one of the boys". Our wives don't object to the title either
    however they all complain that when "the boys" get together "the
    boys" end up with "the hangovers". Those of us "boys" still married
    don't get together all that much.
    
                          Rob  "One of the boys!"
    

    
         I was a manager in a Inner city McDonald's not to long ago.
      We had many inner city blacks working for us and many of our
      Customers were these same inner city blacks.  I am a white from
      some very racist country and had never come in contact with many
      blacks before.  
         When I started as a manager here I was often called racist
      by many of the kids that worked there.  Mainly because of my
      background.  Which brings me to my point many of the kids could
      not stand me calling them boy when I first started.  But by the
      time I left some 9 months later to start my job here at DEC I
      was one of the most well respected and liked managers there.
         Getting back to the point when I left I could call most of
      Them boy and they would laugh about it.  As a matter of fact 
      They would call it back to me as a joke.  So you can call them
      boy and they don't mind at all if you are trusted within there
      circles. But being a white person most of the inner city "boys"
      were very wary of me and untrusting.
         I don't suggest that you ( a white person ) run out and call
      a black person boy. But given time a white person can make black
      jokes with blacks arround and not be called a racist or bigot.
     
                                         -- Jesse
    

    Re 5.10-- Who's THEM ? I suggest that "boy" and " girl " 
    have both been used by the  "THEM's" of the U.S. as 
    Rallying points of the fight against racism and sexism.
    Your use of "THEM" in the title of your note indicates that
    the trust was too loosely given, if it was at at all given.
     Remember ,you were the manager (massa).  
    What makes you think you ever saw true emotions ,as far as
    you were concerned ??
    400 years is a long time ,humans forget slowly,if at all.

    
         I must agree with 5.11.  As a black person, I find that the
    only way one can detect good or bad will in a person is through
    the context of what they say.  I did take offense at 5.10 in the
    same way I used to take offense at the kind of people who would
    say that 'some o' mah best friends are nigrahs'.  I hesitate to
    comment in most of these matters, because they tend to generate
    more bad will toward the complainer than the initiator.  A chief
    prerequisite to being black is to have a sense of humor (and sometimes
    a long fuse).
    
         I really don't think 5.10 meant any harm.  I also don't like
    to create an atmosphere in which people feel they have to walk on
    eggshells.  That's just the way it is (a la Bruce Hornsby).
    

    Flame off.
    I agree that 5.10 meant no harm,but perception is reality. I too
    am black,and grew up in very radical black country. I never trust
    people's  words ,I just watch what they do ,usually over long
    periods of time. Growing up black in a british colony teaches you
    that. Interestingly enough ,the term 'boy ' seems to carry the same
    connotation anywhere you go.Tone of voice and inflection are the
    real culprits though.

    
         I see your point.  Perhaps people's reaction to such stimulae
    differ due to each person's experiences, but that is only the outward
    reaction.  Internally, I can say that I feel at least as strongly
    as you do.  I just choke down the stong impulse to flame.  Don't
    take this as a criticism of you.  I have lived in every region of
    the US due to my father's military career, and I have encountered
    opinions which range from the extreme to the passive.  I respect
    your position as a temperate one.
    
         Indeed, when someone feels the need to call me 'Boy', rest
    assured that they are just chiding me.  At six feet, three inches
    and 265 pounds, people rarely insult me.  You know the funny thing
    about this?  The people I would not attack for calling me certain
    things don't want to call me those things anyway.  Real friends
    don't demean a person no matter how casual you are with them.
    

    HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!
    

    re .14
    
    My 14 year old son at 6'4" and nearly 200 pounds has no problem
    with racist remarks. He told me that kids stopped making them
    even as a joke somewhere around 5th grade when he started picking
    them up and putting them somewhere so high they couldn't get down
    without help everytime they tried.

    
         Unfortunately, I may be misleading when I mentioned my size
    in 5.14.  Actually, I feel bad about using my size to solve any
    situation.  I would rather reason with the person, but it is not
    always possible.  In the situation of being called BOY, I would
    probably walk away rather than fight.  Don't think the anger is
    not there.  I hold things in, even when I feel homicide is justified.
    Do your son a favor and advise him to moderate his temper.  Violence
    is sometimes unavoidable, but be certain it is before it is used.
    
         If a person avoids physical violence as a regular habit, there
    will be no question of it being justifiable when it is used.
    
         
    PS- I have inflicted far more damage on the racists I have met by
        using personnel departments and lawyers than could ever be done
        using my physical strength.
    

    
           I'm afraid we may be starting to stray, by the slightest
    degree, from the topic.  Perhaps someone would like to start a topic
    specifically for a discussion of racism.  I only hope that our
    caucasian compatriots will join freely in the discussion.  I find
    that 'walking on eggshells' atmosphere is quickly generated in such
    conversations.  Also, that 'US vs. THEM' stuff starts and quite
    ruins the topic.  If we agree to hold the flames below farenheit
    457, and be assured of regular moderator control, I think such a
    topic could succeed.  
    
         Racism is a concern of all men not just those who consider
    themselves the oppressed.  I think the creation of a "BLACKNOTES"
    would not be constructive due to the ill will it would generate.
    That would also necessitate a "WHITENOTES","YELLOWNOTES","REDNOTES",
    "BROWNNOTES" ad infinitum.
    
        Think about it, folks.
    
    PS- If any of the hypothetical notes I mentioned really do exist,
        my apologies are offered.
    

    re .17
    The incident I described happened when my son was in fifth grade
    and it wasn't done in anger. He just gently lifted the other kid
    up and set him up on a wall. (and then helped him down after wards.)
    For all his size he is not a physical person, he uses words not
    action.

    Re .18:
    
    But seriously, why not create a BLACKNOTES?  (or a more general-purpose
    MINORITY_NOTES?)  I was beginning to wonder if one existed.  We have
    a WOMANNOTES, why not a BLACKNOTES?  You know, valuing differences and
    all that.  I could learn from such a conference.  And so could others.
    Also, as a place to connect and share problems that others have that
    have to do with being black (or part of a minority group).
    
    	-Ellen

    	As far as the original topic goes I don't like being called
    boy when it is being directed at me personnaly.  I don't mind the
    term when used to refer to a group which I'm in.  When I was in
    the Army I had this team sgt who was raised in rural Tenn.. He had the
    habit of calling people boy, though he never  refered to a black
    person by that word.  I don't think he meant any harm by it and had
    stopped using when talking with or about blacks because he had become
    aware that it aggrevated them.  I know that I was aggrevated by
    it.
    	As for a note on racism or race relations I like to see
    it (maybe it's already been started, I just started to sequentially
    read this file)as a topic.  As a white person raised in my teenage years
    in a middle class black neighborhood I think that it would be a
    benefit for most of us.  Talking about these things almost always helps.
    
    
    Rich

    
    Re: -.1
    
         A notefile on racism has proven to be ill advised (the water has
    already been tested).  The possiblity of a notefile titled 'BLACKNOTES'
    has been considered, but we are having difficulty finding anyone
    with the appropriate combination of time, willingness and system
    resources.  
    
                          Bubba
    

    I call most people guys. That guy, us guys, you guys etc. In my
    social context most of the women I know are also one of the guys.
    
    Actually, to illustrate my belief that this whole issue - whether
    to call people boys, girls, men, women, ladies - is one of semantics
    and has no real value, I offer this example of a coed event in my life.
    
    At my wedding, one of my ushers was a women. After all, she was MY
    friend. One of my wife's bridesmaids was a male. He was HER friend.
    It wouldn't have made sense if my friend was her bridesmaid and
    her friend was my usher. If not for my brother she could have been
    my best man.
    
    But my wife is a woman and I'm not so that made people happy.
    
    /Les

    .8 neither would I.  I have too much fun over being over 30!

    Re: .25
    
         Unless he's into degradation or domination, I'd say any MAN
    would have a reason to object.
    
                                     Greg

    Michael, Michael, what am I to do with you....  Go back to sleep,
    you obviously are in a deranged state.  That was a real BEEEP of
    a comment.  (heavy sigh...)  :-)

    I think .25 said it best.  Whats wrong with names?  Everyone has
    one.

    
    Yesterday at lunch, I cleaned the windows in my wifes van
    which I drove to work that day.
    Walking back into work, a woman saw me with a handful of used
    paper-towels and said..
    
    "Cleaning your car during lunch? Aww, what a good boy."
    
    

    I happened to be cleaning up the coffee area in our office a while ago, 
wiping up the counter that had dried coffee/sugar/cream/who konws what on 
it......and two women from another group came by for coffee. One looked at 
what I was doing and remarked to the other that she bet I didn't do that at 
home....I smiled sweetly and told her that I *did* do it at home, and why 
would I do it here if I wasn't already used to it? 

What boiled me was...Both the women were of a different race and if I had 
been the one making the remark to one of them, I would have been kicked 
around by personnel rather fiercely, and rightfully so......

    Vic H

>I smiled sweetly and told her that I *did* do it at home, and why 
>would I do it here if I wasn't already used to it? 

I'm glad that you pushed back on them.  And I think that you did it in 
such a way so as to give them something to think about.

I've often heard my gay friends say something the effect of: "I don't 
understand how he can be so racist and sexist.  He's gay.  He should 
know better."

People don't automatically make the connection between devaluing 
comments made toward a group they belong to and devaluing comments 
that they throw at other groups, especially toward men.  I've seen 
examples of people who are normally good at Valuing Differences 
completely drop the ball when it comes to valuing the male difference.

It's disheartening.  But gently pushing back helps to educate.

							--Gerry

      <<< Note 5.32 by TLE::FISHER "Work that dream and love your life" >>>
                           -< I'm glad you did that >-

>I'm glad that you pushed back on them.  And I think that you did it in 
>such a way so as to give them something to think about.>

>It's disheartening.  But gently pushing back helps to educate.

    Thanks Gerry,

I have done it before, and sometimes it helps.....a couple of years ago my 
brother and I went to a convention and asked at the reservation desk for 
two tickets in our names. (Understand, we are both big guys) The person 
behind the ticket counter made the remark that we must get a lot of kidding 
about our name. Our response was "Not after we drag the person across the 
counter once or twice." He kind of shrank down behind the counter like we 
meant it.....I doubt he would make the remark again......Maybe not a gentle 
reminder, but kinder than an insulting remark or other actions... 8^)

    Vic H

(Now back to the topic of "don't call me BOY!)

 re: .34

 Relevance to this note?

     <<< Note 5.35 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Phase II: Operation Desert Storm" >>>
> re: .34
> Relevance to this note?

    Just that sometimes you have to "push back" on people to make them see 
that they are being offensive or stepping on your (my) feelings whne they 
probably don't realise it, sorta like calling someone "boy".....

    If it isn;t really relavant, I apologise....

    Vic

 Vic-

 I got the relevance of your .33. I was wondering about .34, which was written
by someone else and apparently deleted.

 The Doctah