Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Bob, have you considered that your walking around with a chip on
your shoulder, vis-a-vis, your "piss on them all" attitude, *might*
have something to do with *their* attitude toward you?
    
It appears that you've gotten yourself into a vicious circle: you 
started off feeling hostility from them, countered back with feeling
hostility toward them, and now are wondering why they don't find you        
someone they might like to be with.
    
Do you really think a woman can't sense negative feelings about women,
that are emanating from a man?     
       
  Alan
                              

    I think you're hanging around with the wrong group of women. :-)
    It could be you as well. I'm not running into any problems (outside
    of an occasional Notes tiff :-)) with angry women.
    
    Are you married or in an other serious relationship with a woman?
    Women do seem to treat married men somewhat differently then they
    do single men. Being married I may not see things that you do. And
    the other way around.
    
    			Alfred

    bob,
      Did you ever think that it is due to the many, many years of
    suppression?   We deserve it ya know.  Being 24, I have suppressed
    them all and so have you.  And don't go blaming it all on our
    forefathers, your a male so your did it too.  
    
    Sounds darn silly doesn't it?  Think about it...

    
    	I was surprised, when I left town, to find that women in other
    areas of the country could be friendlier than those here.   Then,
    there are other places where they are even more hostile than here.
    
    	Don't blame it on yourself.   There *are* in fact, a lot of
    hostile people out there, although there are also places where
    people are still friendly.   Maybe you need to take a vacation...
    
    	Alan.

    Sometimes what you give is what your getting, if your giving off
    anger - then more often then not it comes back to you.  I'm not
    saying blame it on yourself, but if your comming from a place of
    anger and frustration and people sense it about you, it comes right
    back at you.  Can you shift your attitiude a bit, be open and a
    bit vulnerable you might see things differently and so do people
    around you.
    
    Jim

    
    
    	Great advice Jim...  (Are you any relation to the Melansons
    of Billerica??)
    
    							mike

    
    Yes, I have experienced my over fair share of angry women.
    And yes theres that crowd thats going to say that I deserve
    it based upon what ever reason they have. Point and case is 
    that there is going to be people that like you, don't like you,
    and even others that just outright don't give a damn. Attempting
    to talk to the angry and arrogant ones will get you nowhere, save
    for wasting your time and breath.
    
    Best advice is to pay attention to, and spend time with those 
    that express liking your company. The ones that don't have an ax 
    to grind over a real or perceived problem. Its like the old 
    proverb says "avoid angry people, for you are likely to become
    one of them." If they don't have to good sense to want to be 
    friends with you, then they aren't worth knowing or dealing with.
    
                                            Bob B 

    
    
    My wife works in a small town variety/liquor store. She has to deal
    with men that take a freindly attitude as an invitation for sex
    nightly. Although I don't condone the behaviour in women, I do
    sometimes see the nessesity (sp?) of being a bitch. Not that you
    are sending the same message as the men my wife has to deal with.
    Marie (that's my wife's name) says she has even had to call the
    police on one occasion due to some slimeball that wouldn't leave
    her alone. She doesn't consider this a valid reason to be a bitch
    to any member of the male sex though. She claims that it's something
    like one in every 20 who comes on to her. 
    I've had similar experiances here in work and outside. One instance
    happned only a couple of months ago. A woman, new to this building,
    was in the elevator when I got on. I only said to her something
    like, thank god it's friday or something harmless like that.
    I got the rudest treatment from her. She made a derogatory remark
    under her breath, but loud enough for me to hear. I was hurt by
    this. I didn't say anything bad. I didn't even look at her in a
    way that could be remotely considered compromising. 
    In the last few weeks this same woman has said hi to me in the halls,
    held the elevator door for me and seems to have a totally different
    attitude towards me. What happened was the people she works with
    know me, somehow she got the message that I'm very marrried and
    not interested in her or any other woman. I've not spoken to her
    since that day  either. I'm just off her "threat list". 
    I don't condone her behaviour but I can sort of understand it.
    I know what my wife goes through with some slimeballs. 
    Marie says she has to be careful about just how nice she appears
    to men she doesn't know well. 
    
    I don't know of any solutions to this either. Just don't shut off
    all woman cause a few can't deal with freindly men. The woman I
    mentioned isn't alone but she's not part of a majority either.
    For every one like that I meet at least three that are pleasant
    at first meeting. 
    

    there's folks as likes you for the right reasons
    folks as dislikes you for the right reasons
    folks as likes you for the wrong reasons
    and folks as dislikes you for the wrong reasons.
    
    the only ones that deserve cpu-time in your head are the first group.
    
    -Jody
    

    No.
    
    Steve
    

    Bob,

    Sometimes I think people tend to let their past experiences affect the
    present too much.  So many times we analyze a situation to the point
    where we lose all perspective and therefore lose the value of that 
    experience.  For example, when a person is hurt in a relationship, 
    that person can either learn from the experience or they can shut the 
    doors to avoid that pain from occuring again.  Speaking from personal
    experience, it's much easier to shut the doors but ironically, it only 
    serves to hold the pain; not to let it go.  I'd like to ask a
    rhetorical question...have you been hurt recently?  If so, have
    you dealt with it?  If not, you had better do so before moving on.
     
    
    At the same time, I don't think it's fair to insinuate all women
    are arrogant, nasty, miserable creatures....Just as it isn't fair
    for women to accuse all men of chauvinism and suppressing women
    of their rights.  I have a friend who feels very bitter toward men.  
    Funny, but what she really wants is to have a special person in her
    life.  I don't see how she can until she releases her ill feelings 
    toward members of the opposite sex.  Who wants to be around someone
    like that?  
    
    Only you can decide if the problem is with you or with the women
    you meet or perhaps a mixture of both.  I find that when faced in
    a situation where I wonder if it's me or other people, I will confide
    in close friends and/or family members of what is going on.  If I get 
    the same answer from two or more and they say it's me...then I know
    it's time to take a good look at myself and take corrective action
    if necessary.
        
    Excuse me for saying this; but you and Mr. Healy come across as
    bitter and indulging in self-pity.  Somebody hurt you?  Well, I'm
    sorry to hear that but you're not in the boat alone.  People of
    the opposite sex shun you?  I'm sure there are others (men and women) 
    who feel the same.  Unfortunately, first impressions play an important
    role in our society...sometimes we don't give people a chance. 
    I've never liked the bar scene because I don't enjoy the insipid
    games people play but now I watch the people.....I wouldn't say
    that looks are everything but what is important is attitude.  You
    first have to like yourself....and whether you want to believe it
    or not - IT DOES SHOW!!!!!!  It shows in actions, reactions, words,
    and body language.
        
        
    I wish you well....don't give up.  It won't make you any happier!
    And yes, Virginia, there are nice men and women out there.  You
    just have to look in the right places.  
        
    Good luck Bob!
        
        
    Kris              
        
        
    
    P.S.  I don't know about the rest of you but I can hardly wait for
          Mr. Healy's article regarding us miserable creatures (am I
          supposed to be miserable?  Geeeeez!  No one told me!!).  Oh
          the suspense...the excitement...the thrill of it all!
    
    

    
    Although I was married for 8 years, that relationship is
    ancient history. I haven't socialized with women for several
    years, but that has little to do with why I feel this way. 
    There was a time when I tried real hard to be charming, etc...
    Then I overheard women making fun of men and how they try so 
    hard, and having a good laugh. Well, that is the last one they'll
    ever get at my expense. All this male sincerity is just garbage,
    which women flush down the nearest commode. I know what
    2 and 2 are... 
    
    You tell me I should just shrug off all this anti male hostility... 
    sorry, I just don't have the generosity of spirit to do that. 
    Why should women be so priveleged that they should get away with 
    giving hostility signals while expecting men to crawl like beaten 
    dogs to kiss their feet for the privelege of getting to talk to, 
    date, make love to, etc...them..? 
    
    Men are suckers; smiling like benign idiots, waiting for some
    female to grant "permission"....yecch! I only wanted to be treated
    decently, honestly... well, no. This apparently does not happen
    in the Western World.   
                          
    

       I'm gonna re-phrase the question..
       
       	"Do I make women angry?"
       
       	Oh yea.. I sure as hell do sometimes.. I can be a bastard when
       I want too be.. (Thankfully that is VERY few and far between)
       
       	So shoot me (and the women too).. We're human.. If people did
       a little less pissing and moaning and a little more chatting and
       smiling we'd be better off.. (And if they don't, well, me and Bob
       know what to do to them..)
       
       						mike
       
       	Personal name's for you Bob.. {smirk}

    For some men the problem is not the women but the men themselves. Which
    women, in her right frame of mind, will give the time of the day to the
    man who says/thinks that "women and their miserable, irrational, nasty
    ways piss me off to the ends of the earth"?  With an attitude like that
    one can only cut himself off from women. Would you like to converse
    with a woman who thinks that men are evil, chauvinistic, and are
    ass-holes? If you met a woman in a bar and that was her attitude would
    you be nice to her?  Would you want to spend more than a second
    with her? 
    
    I think that there are women who are nasty, and there are men who are
    nasty also.  To dismiss women as nasty, irrational, and miserable based
    on a previous poor experience is nasty, irrational, and miserable.
    
    I am a woman, and I don't think that I suffer anymore severe mood
    swings that the average guy in this conference.  I don't think that
    I am a bitch. I am nice to most people until they become overbearing.
    Then I lash out.  Isn't that what most humans do? 

    Bob,
    
    Many people are insecure about themselves - they manifest this
    sometimes through strange behavior.  Try to see each woman (and
    man) as an individual, otherwise you may just become extremely unhappy
    in your world -- this will eventually show in your behavior and
    many people will become uncomfortable around you.
    
    Regards.
    

    RE: .16
    
    >Would you like to converse with a woman who thinks that men are
    >evil, chauvinistic,
    
    No, but unfortunately I didn't have to go to a bar for this privilege.
    
    
    WW   
    

    
    
    > "I know I look like a geek, so it's understandable"<
    
    Sounds like you've takin yourself out of the ballgame before the
    first pitch!!!   I have a cousin with the same image problem. And
    when you consider what the 80's have brought us:
    
    - Words like, geek, nurd, etc.
    - Movie after movie of geek and nurd bashing and movies that tell
    women that the ROCKY AND RAMBO types only count!
    
       I can see why it can be hard for anyone who falls short of these
    false role models.  But just remember that there are women out there
    that can see thru that false crap. 
    
      What are your interests?  You have a better chance meeting someone
    while your involved in those interests than at the bars or clubs.
    
    
      Go easy on yourself, you deserve it.
    
    
    

    
    RE: .14  Right on Bob! Do you want to go out for a few beers? 
             We'll discuss this topic real loudly. I didn't even
             read the subsequent replies before answering yours
             (which I always do). I think these male brown nosers
             have either been very fortunate or they're very
             niave to true human nature. Treat a woman nice and
             she'll take you for a sucker. Its their sneaky, see
             how much they can get away with attitude.
    
                                                          MATT
    
    

    Speaking as a divorced man that was taken by his ex wife and has
    spent the last three years avoiding women and thinking some of the
    things .14 and .21 I say:
    BULLSHIT!
    
    I see the attitude you men are holding as just that. I spent a good
    deal of time resenting being hurt by my ex and the pain was deep I
    gave alot but not all as anyone in a relationship does but never
    would I consider it 'brown noseing' or 'foot kissing'.
    I admit I had a bad attitude after I was hurt and hurt a few really
    nice women(whom I now wish I could spend time with) and to avoid
    being hurt again would even discuss how "bad" my ex was to me.
    You matt and bob need to get off the pity pot(I know this to be
    the case 'cause *I* have sat on that throne of agony) give up the
    held resentment and pain and start having an open mind.
    Since I jumped of the throne of agony I have met some very nice
    women and a few bitches and still I donot have a SO but I still
    feel better about life than you guys do. I REFUSE to join you again
    but understand some of where you are coming from I feel sorry because
    I can relate to the pain.
    
    Let go and enjoy life, hateful feelings inspire hate in others you
    WILL reap the seeds you plant.
    
    If you decide to reply to this go for it but if you try to further
    convince me that you are rightful and staying in your situation
    dont bother your time will be wasted. If however I can help send
    mail or reply here and I'll try to help the thought of someone
    spending the rest of their life feeling like I did is terrible!
    
    BTW- I intended none of this note as a flame any feeling otherwise
    could be considered as a "truth that hurts". Also what I said is
    not something I suddenly realized by myself a very good friend whom
    I hadent seen for a long time saw my attitude within 2 hours of
    seeing me again, he made it a point to find out why. He really laid
    into me I might add(and I fully resented it then) but made me see
    that I was wrong in thinking they(women) are "all that way".
                      
    Best regards,Jerry
    

        
    
    re:  23. 
    
    	And maybe, just maybe,  if some of us were given a chance
    Bob and Matt might find out that what you are saying is true! 
    
    	Thanks, AL, there are good and bad of both species...I think
    we just have to be open, and patient in our search. 
    
    		My 

    RE: anyone that might care...
      Due to technical problems, I was forced to delete my reply (.22).
      No biggie, It pretty much said that there are all kinds of people
    and that only some of them (male and female) are that way.
    Sorry for the inconvenience, we now resume you regularly scheduled
    tangent.
                             Al         

	Ref .21

>>>	Treat a woman nice and she'll take you for a sucker. Its their 
>>>	sneaky, see how much they can get away with attitude.
    
 	With this attitude I can truly understand why many women may
	find it difficult to "relate" to you. There are not many people
	who would want to spend time with a person who is so bitter and
	hateful towards their being. Would you not become angry towards
	some-one who held the opinion that all men with blonde hair and 
	blue eyes were down-right bastards if you so happened to fall 
	into that criteria.

    As a female, I deeply resent your attitude towards us.  If we were
    to go around spending our time and energy saying that ALL men were
    arrogant, egotistical bastards - then we'd all be in deep s**t.
    I am truly sorry that you have obviously been deeply hurt by someone,
    but to put all of us in that category is truely unfair.  I had lived
    several years ago with a very violent drunk (and that is the only
    way to describe him), and left him with a very poor attitude towards
    men in general - I could not even look at one without feeling total
    disgust, repulsion and anger for a long time.  It has taken a long
    time, but I now know that ALL men are not alike.
    
    I agree that you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself, it only
    hurts you in the long run - no one else really gives a damn.  If
    you have an attitude that we're out to get you, then every female
    you will meet will sense it and treat you in just the way you feel
    they'll treat you - tell someone they're a bad person enough times,
    they're going to start living up to that expectation because it's
    what you expect out of them.  
    
    There are lots of nice women out there, lower your expectations
    alittle and just be yourself - maybe you'll surprise yourself.
    

    RE: .27
    
    Why did you start to develop a very poor attitude toward men because
    of this one man who hurt you? 
    
    Excuse me, but I find that strange in a way. Even when I despised
    a former girlfriend, I never doubted for one minute that there were 
    better women out there. What do you think made you despise all men?
    And I should say I'm not doubting your emotions, just trying to
    understand. 
    
    
    

    
    RE: .22 and .27
    
            I think the connection the two of you have TRIED to make
            is a bad one. My personal opinion on the nature and dis-
            position of many of the women I've met in the past has
            NOTHING to do with self pity. Make your counter arguments,
            but give that "self pity" thing a permanent rest.
    
                                                               MATT
    
    

    re: .22 (Jerry)
    
    	Good for you!  It seems that it's been mostly women saying "No,
    	we're not all like that" while the men who feel that way have,
    	for the most part, not responded in such a way.
    
    	The same woman who can appear to be curt is probably also a warm 
    	and loving individual.  Maybe you met her on an off-day or she's
    	having family difficulties.  Believe me, women do not sit around
    	and compare how they hurt men.  But if you project negativity of
    	any kind (including pressure) the reaction you'll undoubtedly get 
    	will be one of negativity.  Please realize that each of us, even 
    	women (believe it or not!), have very deep feelings that can be 
    	affected, whether it's blatantly shown or not.
    
    	Hearts and emotions do not have gender.
    
    						   Carla
    

    Bingo.
    
    There ARE some basically evil people out there.  If you run into
    one, I sympathize, but it shouldn't be enough to convince anyone
    that this particular person is representative of the gender.  There
    are also clusters of unbelievable sweethearts in the world.  If
    you preconceive the nature of THESE valuable citizens, all you'll
    get to know is the back of their heads as they walk away.  There is
    a very sensitive balance between self-protection and openness to
    others, and it takes a strong character to set it just right.
    
                                Greg
    
    

    Going back to when I was ten years old, I have a trail of both
    mental and sexual abuse from various men.  I probably could spend
    the rest of my life hating them and have it be justified, but I
    don't (kind of like them, actually. :-) )
    
    It's hard to listen to your abusive, narrow minded, opinions without
    hearing how many times I've heard women say "men are all alike,
    they're only after one thing".  There was a time when I would stick
    up for them right then and there, then there was a phase when I
    couldn't agree more.  Now I realize that you just have to be careful
    with your feelings when dealing with them.  Some men start out a
    little rough, but you just have to have patience and polish them
    a bit (and yes, stroke their egos a tad). 
    
    Perhaps you should just chill out a bit, and take some time to
    heal your obviously deep wounds.  Is it so necessary that you meet
    someone *right* now?  How about making yourself a little happier
    with yourself first?
    
                                             cj *->
    

    
    	I've noticed alot of the women I meet are very cold and
    	stand-offish towards me at first. I don't blame them, it's
    	my problem, not theirs! In my case, my tour of duty in VN
    	changed me in such a way that until someone really makes an
    	effort to know me, they think me cold and unfeeling. I know
    	it's there, the look, the blank expressions, the negative
    	vibs, not something I'm proud to display. I've tried and
    	tried to change, but without any success. I could opt to
    	place the blame on women, but that would only serve to
    	smooth my ego. It is true, you do reap what you sow, I'd
    	suggest others that find hostile vibs from women to really
    	look at themselfs before making judgement.
    
    	G_B

    Hi--
    
    After reading this note and all answers makes me think twice.  There
    are times when I am plain old having a rotten day but I HAVE to
    be at work.  I know on those days I am not too cordial with people,
    and am downright rude simply because I feel bad myself.  On days
    like that, when I need to be alone and someone talks to me I view
    it as an intrusion.
    
    You would think that an adult woman would be better able to keep
    her emotions in check, but sometimes it isn't the case.  I don't
    like to hurt anyone's feelings, and know what it is like to have
    mine hurt.  I guess what I am trying to say is that personally I
    am trying to make an effort to think of the other person more. 
    Sometimes we inadvertantly hurt or put off people because we are
    wrapped up in our own hurts or moods or preoccupations.
    
    Ssometimes people are not what they seem--it could be THEY that
    are having the problems, and not you.
    
    Jane

       This note has been re-written due to one of the moderators
       objections.  I have heard that there was a rather flaming reply
       to it also. Oh well, can't please all of the people. I STILL stand
       by what I have said and have only taken out the dirty words 
       and the slight reference to a personal attack. (not meant that
       way initially but hey, I'm in a nice mood so I'll attempt to 
       be nicer this time cuz I became an Uncle today)
       
       	If you STILL don't like this then send me mail. I'll be more
       than happy to tell someone that I haven't changed my mind on this.
       
       			Slightly irritated,
       
       						mike
       
================================================================================
Note 231.34                 Do women make you angry ?                   34 of 36
AXEL::FOLEY "Rebel without a Clue"                   22 lines  27-MAY-1988 10:24
                   -< Don't take this personally but....... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       
       Matt,
       
       	It's guys like you who make it tough for guys like me.  Your attitude
       REALLY stinks. Yea, I've been hurt REAL deep by some women, so what? I'm 
       still around and I STILL try to be objective and NOT the pessimist you 
       are.  I STILL give of myself and I still get hurt. But I'm stronger
       now than I was then and can deal with it MUCH better.. My
       advice for you is to go seek some counselling and learn to like
       & love yourself cuz until you do, you'll never find this happieness
       you seem to be searching for.. (If you think someone can "make" you
       happy you're more blind than I thought.. Well, not really)
       
       	Explore, confront and deal with your resentment of women. 'else
       you might find yourself in a world of hurt you never would expect.
       
       	FWIW, mental, physical, and sexual abuse of ANYONE (female OR
       male) pisses me off to no end.  Nearly EVERY woman I have gone out
       with has experienced 2 or more of these things.. Thankfully I'm
       getting better at dealing with it.. (Doesn't mean I want to though)
       
       						mike

       

    
    Why, what a constructive and reasoned reply. I shall 
    certainly take your advise to heart.
    
    I am certainly glad that you rewrote your note. Dirty 
    words don't impress me any more than sanctimonious ones.

       
       	Having seen the flaming reply, I can agree that dirty words
       aren't nice. Especially the ones written to me. And the intended
       personal attacks. Unfortunately (??), I'm an emotional person and
       when I get emotional, like I did, I tend to be rather blunt and
       less concerned with how I say something rather than what I say.
       
       Oh yea, and for the record, (and for those who saw the flaming
       reply), I CREATED the Singles conference so nobody made me
       co-moderator. And the way I "rule" it has the approval and
       thanks of MANY people.  That's as much as I'll reply to the
       flaming reply.
       
       						mike

    re .38:
    
    We need rebuttals to removed notes about as much as we need the removed
    notes.  Please get back to the topic of this note.  Now.
    
    - M

    
    	FLAME *ON*
    
    	I hate women who laugh when they see me naked!
    
    	FLAME *off*
    
    
    Jake

    ans: 1, his mother.    :-)
    Sorry, Jake.  I couldn't resist.

    
    	No. People make me angry. Receptivity seems to be a random
    variable, and, doesnt seem to be related to the factor of gender.
    I'm sure there are factors, loads of them for every individual, that
    do influence one's social cordiality from time to time. God only
    knows how they're set for each person at any given moment.
    	Certain people do have trends, I've noticed. If the most available
    girl on the floor wants to be completely standoffish - so what?
    I get a real kick observing the complete shift in her behavior toward
    the married guys...Hit it once, break away clean and all I 'spose.
    And no worries about "some guy that wants to go out with me" and
    him hanging around foreverafter -
    
    	Joe Jas

    re 14:
    
    Bob, I have had feelings such as yours and understand completely
    where you're at.
    
    The picture you paint of your current outlook is one of a man who
    has been deeply hurt and doesn't want to face that hurt.  To distract
    himself from the negative feelings, he lashes out at the perceived
    source of the hurt and feels totally victimized.
    
    You have placed yourself in a box that you are afraid to walk out
    of.  You are projecting your resentment on to all women.  Sensing
    your resentment, even those women that may want to be friendly toward
    you expect to be rejected and shy away, or if they are insecure,
    react with their own defense mechanisms.  You blame them for not
    being friendly, when their actions are only a normal human response
    to the attitude you cling so tightly to.
    
    As has been pointed out in .13, you must deal with your past
    experiences.  It is a scary thing to confront all that nasty stuff
    you've been through.  It often seems easier not to, but the feeling
    of resentment and hurt will just grow and become more unbearable
    as long as you avoid it.  Eventually it will surface, perhaps in
    an embarassing or even violent manner.  The emotions will control
    you.
    
    The alternative takes a lot of courage.  It requires the support
    of a good friend or friends who will stick with you when you're
    feeling really down.  You may want to consider professional help
    (I don't know how effective the Employee Assistance Plan is, but
    it may be worth looking into).  I assure you that it will be
    worthwhile.  The thing is, once you really confront the pain and
    let yourself feel it, it will fade away and bother you no more.
    You'll feel better about yourself, and have some real peace of mind for
    a change.  And you will be in control of your emotions, and a stronger
    person.

    Of course, only you can make that decision to take responsibility
    for your feelings.  I strongly encourage you to do so, and to do
    it NOW.
    
    Steve