Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    i think this note comes dangerously close to treating women as objects.

    Maybe i'am wrong, but i don't see what's wrong with having an opinion
    on women fashions...My lady dress in a variety of different ways,
    to me that's exciting, it's always a surprize.  She's likes to know
    what i think about the way she dresses.

RE: 82.1 
	 Golllllllly. Why I'll just go home and gouge out my eyes and cut
	myself off. Get real. Sounds like you have been beaten up by the
	radicals.
	 When the day comes where I can't say, 'You look great in that', 
	will be the day I become a bachelor.

    
    
    
    	The women underwear that are styled after mens underwear. I've
    been told that they are comfortable and I personally think they
    look great.
    
    						mike

    RE .5 	I agree, but then I've always been a preppie
    
    	The only womens cloths that I *hate* are oversized bulky suits
    that looks like they stole them from their dad.  Other than that
    I feel one should wear what one feels like.  Hugging a women in
    a fuzzy sweater is great.
    					=Ralph=
    

    
    We would be treating women as objects if we were stating some sort
    of opinion that what a woman ought to wear what we say she looks
    good in.  That's just so much peanut butter, and I don't think that's
    the opinion of anyone here.
    
    My own personal thing has to do with boots (slip-on or cowboy boots,
    not hiking/climbing boots).  Boots 'n' jeans, boots 'n' mid-calf
    skirts, boots and just about anything.
    
    DFW

    
    A nice flowing skirt, slit or no.
    
    No stockings, tan legs, and 
    
    Bikini underwear. 
    
    Soft blouses!
    
    Very feminine!
    

    	Reads like a cop-out but I prefer women to wear whatever clothing
    makes them comfortable, provided they don't under or over dress
    too much.  People are at their best when they are comfortable!
    
    Douglas

    
    	What I wear depends on where I'm going, who I'm going to be
    with and what *he* likes for me to wear.  I am guilty of sometimes
    dressing for the man in my life.  Usually, I tend to wear dresses, 
    skirts, but still comfortable clothes.  Especially when going dancin'. . . 

    	

    I personally enjoy the split skirt look myself.
    
    
    
    Ken
    

    
    	Hip boots, loin cloth, and whip cream.
    
    	Jake

    
    Her skirt & my shirts then her acccessories.
    

    I'm most comfortable in *his* shirt....  I'd rather wear that than
    anything else :-)

    If you discard all the post-Madonna fashions I
    might stop cringeing. Drove thru' Northampton,Mass
    the other day. A bottomless pit of tastelessness.
    
    Ilike a woman who dresses for men, not other women.

    At the risk of blowing my cover as a sensitive man, I like to see
    women in anything tight.  Tight jeans, sweaters, skirts, those clingy
    dresses.  Also skimpy things, bikinis, mini-skirts, short shorts.
    Anything that shows off a woman's body.  Aerobics outfits, bodyshirts,
    tank tops, etc.  
    
    I also like to see a woman in blue jeans and a western shirt or blue
    jeans and flannel shirt.  I like tennis shoes, hiking boots, cowboy
    boots, most boots in general.  I hate flats and heels.
    
    I seldem *require* my wife to wear anything unless its simply
    inappropriate for wherever we are going.  She usually asks my opinion
    about whether its appropriate or not.  She knows what I like but
    she usually dresses comfortably.
    
    I hate midis and maxis.  
                                           
    Spence

    I'll go along with just about everything .18 said with the exception
    of heels, those flat things gotta go.  As a confirmed woman watcher
    I like those women that dress for men.
    

        .19: Arrgh!
        
>   I'll go along with just about everything .18 said with the exception
>   of heels, those flat things gotta go.  As a confirmed woman watcher
>   I like those women that dress for men.
        
        I hate high heels.  .18 explained that *he* doesn't like high
        heels.   In other words, women who wear high heels may be
        dressing for "men like you", or conceivably for themselves (I
        can't understand why anyone would want to wear those ugly and
        obviously uncomfortable things, but that's their business)...
        but they're definitely not "dressing for *men*". 
        
        	/dave

    
    re: .20
    
      I stand corrected; "men like me".  I still like them though;
    different strokes...
    

    I personally don't dress for anyone but myself. I know what I like
    on me, I know what looks good on me and in feeling good about how
    I look, anyone else who cares to, will indirectly benefit from
    the feelings or moods that are projected through my image. To thine
    own self be true. Regardless of sex, if you feel sensual, sexy,
    wholesome or whatever, and dress the way you feel it adds to the
    delight of people watching...at least for those who are discerning
    enough to pick up such things.   
    
    Ann

    RE .18
    
    I  like to see well dressed women in high heels but I try to keep
    my wife from wearing high heels.  She has had two operations on
    her feet for bunions caused in part by high heels.  She is much
    more comfortable in very low heels or flats.  
    
    So I have mixed emotions.  High heels look good on a well dressed
    woman but the cost makes me cringe.  High heels do NOT go well with
    jeans.
    

    Re .20, high heels
>   but they're definitely not "dressing for *men*". 
    
    I have to disagree with this.  I've heard so many women complain
    about high heels hurting their feet that they must be wearing them
    simply by dictation of society, and society was created by men,
    therefore, they are dressing for men.  I don't think they wear them
    because they like to.  I may be wrong.
    
    I'm sure that some women like to wear them simply because they think
    that men find them attractive.  Actually, I guess I don't mind the
    sight of them as much as knowing that women find them uncomfortable.
    They don't affect me one way or the other as far as appearance goes.
    Now, high heeled cowboy boots are a different story, I like them.
    
    Any women wish to comment on high heels?
    
    Spence

I for one do not find high heels uncomfortable. I wear them everyday
to work and have never suffered with sore feet or aching legs. I feel
that high heels are feminine and attractive....and that's the way I
like to look.

I choose my clothes for the way they look on my body, not for fads that
are in style. As far as "dressing for men"....well, when men compliment
me or just look in appreciation.....I like it.....so.....maybe I do ;-)

kath
    

  Sigh.  I used to wear high heels to impress men.  Also, I'm five feet
  tall, so I enjoyed the extra height, teetery as it was.  And I hated
  it -- the physical discomfort and the fact I was trying to impress someone
  else with it.
  
  Now, I wear flat shoes and (boots for winter/sandals for summer) all
  the time.  Sometimes, though, I dress up to go out and I wear heels.
  Now, I do it for fun and for a limited time, so it's not uncomfortable.
  I don't wear them to impress men, or any man in particular, for that
  matter, I wear them to match my outfit and that creates a desirable
  impression by the whole.  And if I do wear them too long, I don't feel
  the least bit uncomfortable about taking them off.
  
  
  							Terza
  
  
  

    High heels are definately in...  and they go good with just about
    anything....  besides the fact that there a helluva lot sexier than
    flats.  My likes.... red high heels, white tights, tight blue jeans,
    and a bright blouse...
    
    Fra

    Would you believe - I like to see a woman dressed in a suit,
    or a dress - a ribbon tie is particularly attractive.  Must
    go along with my being attracted to self-assured women.  Neat
    jeans are ok too, but I don't care for T-shirts or sweatshirts.
    A sweater is always nice when weather permits.
    
    I suppose these preferences are related to my dislike of "too casual"
    clothes for myself.
    
    I don't care so much for spike heels, though maybe 1 inch heels
    can be attractive.  Most women are so much shorter than I am that
    every little bit helps!
    
    But in all, I care more for the person inside the clothes than
    the clothes themselves.  
    					Steve

I happen to love high heels, the higher the better!  And not because I am 
short (5'8"), but because I like the way they look.  I have worn them all 
my life and don't plan to stop.  I have never had any problems with my legs 
or feet in them.  In fact, in college when I use to waitress, I wore flat 
shoes all the time, thinking it would only *make sense*.  But the pain I 
encountered in my feet and legs was unbearable, especially in the balls of 
my feet.  As soon as I switch to a moderate heel, it was gone.

I think flat shoes look stodgy and I prefer not to wear them.  Unless I 
plan to go hiking or such then I wear tennis shoes.  I even had a pair of 
high heeled tennis shoes awhile back and they were great!

Long legs and high heels,

Angeline

    Well, I guess I was wrong.  So far, popular opinion is that high
    heels are *not* uncomfortable.  Another idea /
    						 \
    						 /
    						 \
    						 /
    						 \
    					  down the tubes
    
    Spence

    re: .29
    
    I think I also like women to dress "nicely" (a suit or dress, or for
    the casual look - which has it's time and place - wearing clothes that
    "dress up", like a sweater over a blouse or just a nice blouse). I
    guess I haven't seen too many T-shirts (especially sweat-shirts) that I
    liked - but have seen tons of nice blouses that go well with even jeans
    or other casual clothes.
    
    I don't care at all for "revealing" clothes, especially when it's worn
    at improper places.  I've actually been "battling" with this a bit;
    being a "red-blooded American male :^)", very revealing clothes will
    always make me take a second look, but particularly due to past
    experiences - I think the second look would be the last look every
    time (now, at least).

    Most important is that the lady is comfortable with what she's wearing.
    I don't agree much for "dressing for men"; I think women should dress
    the way THEY want, wearing what is comfortable to them. I'd wear
    something special if the right person asked, but all in all, I wear
    what I feel like (or what's clean at the time).  Why should it be
    different for women?
    
    Like others, I care much more for the person inside the clothes than
    the clothes themselves.  After all, it's what's inside that really
    matters and really makes the person, not the cover.  The real beauty of
    a person is inside.
    
    	-- Jeff

    Re .19, I like men who appreciate women for who they are as people
    and not for what style shoes they wear.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.33
    I think that the intent of this note is what men like/dislike
    in womans clothing, not whether we appreciate them for their shoe 
    styles... 
    
    Fra 

    I wear high-heels sometimes cause it's nice to be tall enough to
    see over these stupid partitions.  
    vivian

    Re .34, that may be the intent of the note, but .19 said, "those
    flat things gotta go.  As a confirmed woman watcher I like those
    women that dress for men."  He said the kind of women he likes are
    those that dress for men.  He didn't say what clothes he liked.
     He said he likes the women who dress for men.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:35
    
    You certainly have a way with words....by the way...whats on the
    other side of "these stupid partitions"
    
    
    Paul

    Re .38, Steve, I didn't know "long legs" was something a woman could
    wear?  Where do they sell "long legs" - Jordan Marsh?
    
    Lorna
    

	Wearing things, like legs, Lorna is all a question of Style, some
	women wear short skirts, and shouldn't have bothered, some women
	wear long legs, and should be......well never mind....but.....
	Legs are something almost everybody comes equiped with, how you display
	them indicates your style, panache, persona, call it what you will, 
	some women wear legs.....

Richard.

>	Where do they sell "long legs" - Jordan Marsh?


I didn't buy 'em .... God gave them to me.......

And She must have thought they were nice!   ;-)

    Re .42, I think God must like a lot of different style legs cause
    She certainly created quite a variety!  :-)
    
    
    Lorna
    

Associated Press Thu 26-MAR-1987 12:33                     French Fashion Rdp


   Snazzy, Short Clothes: Dressing to Please Men

                           By SUZY PATTERSON
                           AP Fashion Writer

   PARIS (AP) - Ready-to-wear fashion for next fall and winter,
with its saucy, revealing lines, is aimed at attracting men. Gone
are the shapeless skirts and heavy draping that may have been
comfortable disguises for girls but did little to excite the guys.
   Short and curvy describes most of the clothes shown. It's
distressing news for any militant women's libbers who think sexy is
a bad word.
   Form-fitting, seductive clothes are rampant, in sirenlike and
slinky fabrics for evening, softer wools and jerseys for daytime.
From sassy micros at Chanel to sophisticated suits at Givenchy and
Saint Laurent, the outfits emphasize female figures and long legs.
   No amount of aerobics can transform unshapely legs into great
gams for wearing clingy minis. But a good alternative still exists
in excellent trouser suits and some pretty maxi skirts seen at some
houses. They look great with accordion pleats in jersey, super in
flared versions at Scherrer.
   ``Perhaps a few hemlines will be dropped for American buyers and
their customers,'' said Jean Navin, fashion director of Lord and
Taylor, who thought the flirtatious evening short dresses were
great.
   There was a return of the cardigan sweater suit and belted
chemise or tunic, great at Yves Saint Laurent. Winding up the week
of collections, he managed to give a synthesis of the current
fashion mood better than anybody else.
   Toppers with the short day skirts included peplum jackets,
padded hips - best at Montana - outright classic blazers and duffel
coats or bouncy blousons. Shoulders are still usually padded for
shape to make the waist look smaller.
   To cover up the revealing pulchritude, Paris proposes coats
galore. There are excellent long and short redingotes or princess
coats with back belts in fabulous fabrics. These include
broadcloth, cashmere, mohair and imitation or real leathers and
furs, from shiny ``cire'' raincoats to the most lush Persian lamb
and mink.
   Other coat ideas are swirling babydolls, oval shapes, shortie
coats and duffels. Many are so well-cut they could go on for years,
as a good investment, even if in new colors like smoky pastels.
   The short coat-dress for daytime is Paris's latest best idea for
a working woman, and it even goes out at night in sharp white satin
and black velvet, as at Jean-Louis Scherrer. And the hood looks
good, most boldly shown on daywear at Ungaro.
   For daytime and evening, fabrics are an important story in this
array of fetching clothes. Jacquard knits, velvety chenille, animal
prints and appliqued beasts look great for bold sweaters and
cardigans at several houses.
   Synthetics are on the scene in a big way, as many designers now
use elasticized and cloque fabrics to make clothes body-hugging,
draped and clingy. Stretch fabrics and lame are very big items,
even for daytime.
   The real wools and silks usually win for lasting appeal. There
are acres of Prince of Wales and houndstooth checks and windowpane
patterns on broadcloth, plus bright tartans in full-skirted suits,
coats fringed scarves.
   Party girls may step out at night in everything from Lolita
looks to ballerinas or Belle Epoque grandeur.
   The most popular item will probably be a peppy and short dance
dress with a tight, fitted torso in a lush fabric like cloque silk
velvet, a bright, flounced taffeta skirt. This ''Broadway Baby''
style looked best at Saint Laurent, Givenchy and Guy Laroche.
   Black is still safe chic, worn to all parties in Paris these
days. It is dressed up with sparkling jewelry, shiny ribbons,
touches of white satin, splashes of color like a daring hip bow in
hot red taffeta.
   The bubble-shaped, stiffened skirts with tight strapless or
sleeved tops are making news after their debut in couture last
summer. A bustle effect is also welcome, but it's sometimes
difficult for sitting down.
   Colors for evening include all reds from fuchsia to hot tomato,
dazzling neon or royal blues and absinthe greens, precious-metal
lames, sunny yellows and amethyst. They look great with black
velvet, the keystone of evening fabrics.
   A few clues to watch for next winter's sexy fashions: short
skirts are not a ``must.'' In any case, they are best worn with
dark or colored tights with matching shoes or good-looking boots.
   Memorable accessories are the big toques seen all over town,
whether in velvet, Persian lamb or pretty wools at Saint Laurent.
Other hat looks to make clothes fun are top hats, shiny turban
wraps, saucer shapes for dressy evenings at the Plaza or the Ritz
with the short skirts.
   Paris is in an optimistic mood, and the message is clear and
strong. Look in the mirror, look for good proportions to suit one's
figure, colors to flatter the face. Designers in France have
decided women should be females, whether ingenues or sirens, and
that is a good thing.
    

    re .44
>    No amount of aerobics can transform unshapely legs into great
>    gams for wearing clingy minis. 
     
    Apparently I have the wrong definition of 'gams'.  A skirt would
    have to be *very* short to show a woman's gams.  In fact, the waistline
    would have to be around her neck. 8-)
    
    
>    ``Perhaps a few hemlines will be dropped for American buyers and
>    their customers,''
                                         
    Probably true, unfortunately.  Its odd how Europe is so liberal
    about this and Americans are so conservative.  In Germany, its not
    uncommon to see nude women on TV ads and newspapers.
    
    I knew a bunch of Iranians who were getting military training at
    a US base.  They were all atwitter because the American women didn't
    cover their faces and wore short skirts.  My God, half way up the
    calf and sometimes all the way up to their knees!!!
    
    Spence

    I don't like short skirts especially mini-skirts. Long skirts
    make women look like they have long legs and thinner bodies.
    Besides my imagination is better then most women's legs actually
    are.
    
    I also don't like pants on women but I'm not quite sure why. Perhaps
    it's those tight pants now in fashion which are being warn by too
    many over weight high school women.
    
    High heels or flats don't seem too important. How a woman walks
    is more important. A women wobbling in high heels looks silly while
    the same women walking smoothly in flats looks much better. Of course
    there is the occasional women who can walk smoothly and easily in
    high heels. And the occasional women who walks like an ape in flats.

    The same thing goes for business suits. On a women who is comfortable
    with them they look great. (I'm a suit person for both sexes).
        
    Women who look comfortable and who are comfortable with themselves
    and what they are wearing are more attractive then those who are
    uncomfortable.
    
    			Alfred

    re .45
    
    uh, Spence, um, in everything I've ever read gams always
    refered to legs......what was it you thought they were :-)

    
    Well, thanks for clearing that up.  I've seen the term used in the
    'BC' comic strip to describe some undefined female attribute, but
    assumed the word was created so that the speaker would not get slapped.
    

    I'm reminded of a quote, supposedly from Abraham Lincoln, on how
    long a person's legs should be.  His reply was "Long enough to
    reach the ground."
    					Steve

    
    i like bulky shirts and tight pants. *high* heels???  
    it's *high* tops for me...definately reebok!!!  i like to be
    comfortable but still look nice too (nice meaning kempt).
    

    
     I like mini skirts, flat sandals, cowboy boots, jeans, western
     shirts, bulky sweaters, tank tops...
    
     I dislike high heels, suits, nylons, long skirts...
    
     
     Nancy

    re .49
>   -< On the length of gams >-
    
    This struck me funny because...
    
    re .47
>   ...what was it you thought they were :-)
    
    AKA jugs, knockers, swoozles, garbanzos, jujubes, boobs, etc. 
    
    Which would explain...
    
    re .45, by me
>   In fact, the waistline would have to be around her neck. 8-)            
    
    Spence    

    re .52 (re .47 [re.45]) ...I think I have that straight
    
    that's what I kinda guessed you thought :-)

    
    Sprayed on jeans (if she LQQKS good) and high heels!!!
    See through blouse. No bra!!
    I hope this isn't to sexist,I think the no bra saved me??
    
    Tony....

    No, Tony, the "no bra" doomed you to rot in h___ forever!!   ;-}
    
    
                         DK
    
    
    

    I find it interesting that 'no bra' is a trade mark of feminism,
    but its exactly what men like to see.  I'd like to see 'no clothes'
    for everybody.  But then, I'd freeze to death at work.  I get cold
    with a flannel shirt on.  (Touch your screen, can you feel how cold
    my fingers are?  ;-) 
    
    Spence

                        < And another...>
    

	The most important and beautiful thing a woman can wear is a
    smile!  I like seeing women who smile.  And a good smile starts
    in her eyes.
    							-Bob-

    
    Re: 62
    
    > Not me. I like that smoldering 'go straight to hell, sexist bastard'
      look. <
    
    That's when you give her that smoldering 'sure, but you're comin'
    with me, LITTLE MIss Dangerous' look - right back her way.
    
    I personally love women who dress from the inside, out.  What a
    woman has on beneath external eye appraisals, can be a devastating
    statement.  This discludes having nothing on underneath as making
    a devastating statement.  We're talking about what they wear, not
    what they don't wear.  And of course, if your on a level of intimacy
    with the particular woman who dresses so, well then, devastation
    is all the sweeter, more appreciated when you're working from the
    outside, in.
    
    SRA

    Interesting. I admit I like it when I find little "surprises"
    underneath, it makes things that much more fun.
    
    Do you dress up for her? Especially "underneath"? (Maybe this should
    be a new basenote?)
    
    	-- Charles

    Charles,
    I was going to ask what little 'surprises' you find under her silk
    undies, but you cleared it up in the next line.  The *undies* are
    the surprise.
    
    Yes, I dress up for her, but only "underneath".
    
    Spence

    .42
    
    This is probably for another note, but in my humble opinion God is not
    a "She".
    
    

    in re .66
    
    So start another note.
    
    BJ

    OH PLEASE!  DON'T!
    

    
    Of course, first, ya have to prove that there is something defined as
    God.  Of course, you could get a born-again to ask God to drop his/her 
    .... nevermind.
    

    re:82.69 - I think your safer if you go back to the arts...??
    
    Regards Samantha