Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Positive attitude
    Self reliant
    Reasonably intelligent
    Pleasant personality
    Good looks
    Good health
    Thinks I'm wonderful
    
    Bob Mc
    

    is she breathin ?
    

     RE .4
    
     That's a nice wish, but you can't always get what you want:-)

    but if you try sometimes..........
    
    
    
    you might get what you need!

    
    	I prefer women with nice hind legs.
    
    	Jake

She *must* think I'm the greatest thing walking on earth :-)

Seriously though, I've found my woman for life, and she is very
patient, very understanding, intelligent, open minded, FUN!,
athletic, nurturing, loving, unselfish, ambitious, positive and
more...

Dave_the_lucky_man.

    I guess mine would be:
    
    o	kind hearted;
    o	intelligent;
    o	pleasing to my eye;
    o	capable of taking care of herself;
    o	likes to do some of the things that I like to do;
    o	at least physically fit enough for most outdoor activities;
    o	needs an emotional relationship as much as I do.
    
      Mikie?

        I guess the most important thing on my list was always
        
        	o Equality
        
        I wouldn't have been interested in a woman significantly
        less intelligent/slower/etc than myself, as I'd always be
        dragging her around and "watching out for her".  This wouldn't
        be much fun for me, or likely for her either.  Similar problems
        of course would result from matching with a woman significantly
        more intelligent/faster/etc.
        
        Secondarily:
        
        	o Similar interests (and that includes work, since
        	  computers are a major part of my life).
        
        	o Compatible sense of humor.
        
        	o Looks.  I'm an aesthetically oriented person: I
        	  wouldn't be happy long-term with someone who wasn't
        	  pleasant to look at.  Implicit in this is that
        	  the woman in question will also find *me* pleasant
        	  to look at :-)

        I was lucky enough to find Barbara, who meets all of the
        requirements quite well.  She, however, insists that it was
        *she* who was lucky to find me.  Most of our arguments concern
        similarly grave issues... I guess we're not doing too bad :-)
        
        	/dave

    
    It has always been my contention that looks mean absolutely nothing.
    
    However, it was my experience as a teenager that beautiful women tended
    to not use their brains to acheive anything, just their bodies. They
    also tended to be bitchy. God help 'em when they got to thirty, I used
    to observe. Now at thirty I might amend that somewhat...:-) 
    
    It isn't my intention to start a row here, just to make an observation.
    
    I never got beyond the teenage years in dating, so I can't really
    say if that was the observer or the subject, providing those views.
    
    Extremely good-looking men may suffer from the same syndromes, I
    wouldn't know! :-)

    re .10
    
    >Won't interfere with my life.
    
    C'mon...be real. :-)
    
    	-Ellen

    It is totally unrealistic to expect to live with someone - anyone
    - and not have them "interfere with your life." 
    
    Bob, you contradict yourself later when you also say you want them
    to make to make you feel good about yourself. How can another person
    make you feel good about yourself (or bad about youself, for that
    matter) without interfering with your life?
                                  
    If what you really mean is that you want to live with someone who
    will always do exactly what you want, acquiesce to your desires,
    and never expect you to consider their wishes, wants, or needs,
    you are totally unreastic. Do you want a person or a robot?
    
    -bs

    	I have GOT to ask this -
    
    	Why do you always compare yourself to eagles????
    
    	Larry
    

    Re: the 'be real' debate.
    
    Debate, yes. Detract and insult, no.
    
    Thanks.

      
    
          Just a woman who is capable of saying "I love you!"
    

    plenty strong
    can run and bike for days
    stays out of my face
    no fool
    no flicker when its time to bicker
    steps right on up there
    high demeanor quotient

    Strength of purpose.
    Well read.
    Well spoken.
    Analytical.
    Not American.
    Involved.
    Compassionate.
    Independent.
    Minimal maternal instincts.
    Well travelled.
    Inquisative.
    Not fat.
    Not skinny.
    Well dressed.
    Artistic.
    Understanding.
    Mature.
    etc.

Not American?

CQ

    Yes, not American.  But I should qualify that - Not U.S. - I know
    very few Canadian women.
    
    Recognizing the trouble to come, and admitting up front that what
    I am baout to type is too general and sterotypical, I will try to
    explain why not US women.
    
    US women are not well read.  Nor are they well informed on world
    matters.  US women spend too much time and energy on such nonsense
    as douches (yes, none of you use them but the companies sell millions
    of dollars worth each year).  US women look at a man and concider
    how the man can be changed, rather than except him for who he is.
    US women are too puritanical (they don't enjoy sex for sex).  US
    women act too much like US men!
    
    Understand that not all women in the US, regardless of where they
    were born, are US women.  Also understand that I am 46 years old,
    was raised in and around Boston, have travelled quite a bit, was
    married to two US women (at different times) and love women.

        .27: talk about absurd stereotypes!
        
        Not to mention "not all US women are US women"... so what
        *are* the US women who aren't US women, huh?
        
        Why can't you just say "some women you've met" and leave
        it at that?  "Too general and stereotypical" is a massive
        understatement... and, especially since you seem to have
        realized that before you opened your trap, let me suggest
        that you couldn't *possibly* be flamed *enough* for it!
        
        Let me also suggest that people avoid flaming you as much
        as you deserve, since we don't need that here...
        
        	/dave

     re .27:
     
     Your note is so preposterous that it hardly deserves attention.
     Just one point, though:
     
     > US women are not well read.  
     
     > US women look at a man and concider...
     
     The word is 'consider'.  Nearly all US women whom I know would have
     spelled it properly.
     
     > ...rather than except him for who he is.
     
     The word is 'accept'.  Nearly all US women whom I know would have
     used the correct word.
     
     Apparently, none of the women who keep/have kept you company are/were
     terribly concerned that you are ill-read, judgmental, and a boor.
     
     --Mr Topaz

        .29: <sound of applause in the background>.  You said that
        *so* nicely, Mr. Topaz!  :-)
        
        	/dave (still smilin')

    RE 27                   
                            
    >US women are not well read.  Nor are they well informed on world
    >matters.               
                            
    You & Don Regan ought to have lunch. 
                                             
    >US women spend too much time and energy on such nonsense
    >as douches (yes, none of you use them but the companies sell millions
    >of dollars worth each year).        
                            
    Omigod! The dreaded DOUCHE CONSPIRACY has been uncovered! 
                                                    
    >US women look at a man and concider [sic] how the man can be changed,
    >rather than except [sic] him for who he is. US women are too puritani-
    >cal (they don't enjoy sex for sex).  US women act too much like US men!
                                                
    What do you expect from someone who is hooked on douches?
                                                
                                                
    [Set FLAME to Plasma]                       
                                                
    Where do you get off talking about U.S. women like this? I married
    a U.S. woman who is very well-read & who could tear your lungs out
    in any conversation. Her sisters & friends have a much wider range
    of interests & concerns than douches, & they would surprise you
    with their intimate knowledge of politics, art, literature, science,
    & so on.                                    
                                                
    As for sexual practices, most of the US women I knew (& the one
    I married) enjoyed sex for sex sake when the partner knew what he
    was doing. If you mean they won't hop into bed so you can get off,
    well, then no they don't like sex that way, but who would?
                            
    Your standards are terrible. You want an intellectual companion
    who shares your interests, but she should make no attempt to 
    change you. You want somneone who won't waste time & energy on herself,
    but is instead ready to hop into bed for sex's sake. I think the
    reason you don't like US women is that they are not about to fall
    for this line of %$#@^&.
    
                            
        
        

	  The following is a partial response to someone who 
  sent a well written and excellently documented response to 35.27.  
  The last paragraphs are a response to the other responses to my 
  35.27.

	  Please, I welcome your response and applaud it's honesty.
  I do believe it is misguided, and misdirected.  Misguided because 
  my note in 35.27 states it is "too general and stereotypical" and 
  further states that not all women in the US fall into this 'too 
  general' category of "US Women."  Misdirected because I am not a 
  sexist nor  a chauvinist, though I do understand why the tag of 
  sexist would be hung on me as a result of the comments in 35.27.

	  Reading 35.27 in conjunction with 35.25 helps, somewhat,
  to put it in a clearer perspective.  I believe 35.25, my 'wish 
  list' indicates a respect of strong woman. 

		  ---To the other respondents--

	  The too general tone of 35.27 should have been worded 
  a bit differently.  I must apologize for any inadvertent insults 
  but do not change my basic position, which I restate here, after 
  some qualifications.

  Qual 1. Nowhere in 35.27 does it say that I am well read, well
  informed, articulate, etc.  Therefore, please keep all silly
  comments concerning my abilities in these areas to yourselves.

  Qual 2. Averages are difficult to deal with but without a list 
  of specific people, and I will not be supplying such for obvious
  reasons of discretion and space, averages must be used.

  Qual 3. Spelling, sentence structure and other grammatical nuances
  are utilized to the best of my ability.  Comment on my limitations
  in these areas if you must.  I will not respond in kind since it 
  is a bit of a waste of time.

	  I respect that there are many women living in the United
  States who are well read and quite well informed however it has
  not been my pleasure to meet many of them.  I have had the 
  pleasure of meeting many woman outside the US who are well read 
  and well informed.  I do believe more woman in the US acquire 
  undergraduate and advanced degrees than do their sisters in 
  Western Europe.  I commend all people who invest in the acquisition
  of knowledge.  Unfortunately, formal education is no assurance of
  insight, understanding or interest.

	  The use of douches as a metaphor for my perception that 
  the average woman in the US devotes too much time to how she looks 
  and smells and too little time to her mind was missed by a number 
  of readers who took up douches as a battle cry, unfortunately.  
  I do believe someone must read all the woman's magazines, buy all 
  the cleansing products, etc.  The commercials directed at women's
  seeming anxiety relative to dirt (ring around the collar, dull 
  shine, wax build up, etc.) are successful and tend to suggest 
  poorly directed concerns.  Ours appears to be a nation of at best
  supercilious and at worst narcissistic people much more concerned
  with the speed of our automobiles and the cleanliness of our floors
  than the poor and less fortunate.

	  The balance of my comments in 35.27 do not require further
  qualification, in my opinion.

    Too bad. You're not keeping options open to exceptional women. But
    then again, I can understand. My best relationships have been with
    European men, perhaps because they too are exceptional in relation
    to most American men; usually well read, articulate, excellent con-
    versationalists, well groomed, and genuinely adept at pleasing a
    woman. Oh yes, one more thing, they know how to savor fine things...
    every fine thing. :-)
    
    Regards,
    
    Ann 

    Re: -1
    
    Ann:
    
    	I have not limited myself.  There is a certain type of female
    (and male for that matter) for which I have no time (at any emotional
    level).  When I meet people who meet my definition of US person
    I dismiss them as friends, while still respecting them as associates
    (in work, as neighbors, etc.).  Your comment concerning European
    males has been voiced by a number of my friends!

    RE: .35
    
    
    	Are you for real or just putting us on? A needle would have
    	a bitch of a time squeezing through your narrow mind. Why not
    	open up a little and learn to appreciate women (regardless of
    	place of birth or "rank" in the education arena) for what they
    	are and maybe someday you'll get lucky and meet a woman who'll
    	accept you for what you are.. (God bless her)
    
    							mike

    If i had a dime for every time i've heard that line.
    
        RE .27 & .34 
    
    Sounds like you two are very good at seeing what you WANT to see.
    
    Your generalizations are not based on any facts, not supported,
    and far from reality.
    
    It is probably just the "difference" which attracts you (an accent,
    ect.) Which, i hate to say but, makes you exactly that which you
    accuse "US people" of being. Superficial.  
    
     

    to .37 and subsequent readers
    
    My reply to the author was, admittedly sarcastic, (note :-) before
    flaming.) The rambunctious little kid in me couldn't resist putting
    the gentleman in the same catagory as he took the liberty to place
    me and most other US born women in. So before we have to worry about
    further "meltdowns" understand the vein in which it was written.
    
    Ann 

     Yes, with this kind of medium one must spell things out. Your
    ":-)" seemed to be for your last sentence. My apologies...

    A number of readers of this notes file are making an assumption
    that I have limited my alternatives by functioning with a closed
    mind.  Given that a poor choice of words on my part in one or more
    of the responses to 35 quite possibly contributes to this assumption
    (bringing it closer to a conclusion?) I feel obligated to again
    respond.
    
    Yes, I am opinionated but what is the flaw in knowing what you like
    and dislike in people, the arts, food etc. provided you don't stop
    experimenting?  There is no statement in any of my responses to
    the effect that I dismiss any predefined group of women.  To the
    contrary, I state not all women in the US , whether they are here as 
    a result of birth or choice, fit my definition of "US women."  I
    argue, given that the definition is somewhat qualified (though too
    broadly - no pun intended) and no geographic grouping of women
    are defaulted into the definition, I must get to know each woman
    before qualifying her personage in relation to the definition.
    
    There are some common threads linking more women in the US than
    in other countries, just as there are some common threads linking
    US men, French men, French women, English women, English men, Welsh
    women, Welsh men, US people, German people, (need I continue beyond
    saying there are aspects of each geographic grouping of people which
    make them somewhat unique, within these aspects there are additional
    aspects which make the female and male members somewhat unique?).
    I admit to certain preferences and react accordingly.  The reality
    of my experience (as limited as it might be) has lead me to the
    conclusion that certain traits which I do not like are more common
    among women in the US.
    
    Aside from very poorly chosen words, it appears my "sin" is having
    opinions.

     Reply .41 gets to the heart of the matter; ascribing a set of
     characteristics to a group of people when such characteristics do not
     apply to many members of the group is the problem.  (Incidentally,
     that practice is also the essence of racism.)
     
     Also, Williams claims in 35.33 that American women are overly
     concerned with their appearance and aroma ("...the average woman in
     the US devotes too much time to how she looks and smells...") It would
     be interesting, as a point of fact, to compare the time and money that
     American women spend on make-up, fragrances, and clothes compared to
     the time and money spent on these items by, say, French women. 
     
     --Mr Topaz 

        .42: Steven, the topic certainly permits him to wish for a woman
        who is well-read and unconcerned with douches. It does not
        constitute a valid excuse for claiming that women who happen
        to live in the U.S. could not possibly fit those requirements...
        which is exactly what he claimed.  That sort of name-calling has
        nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. 
        
        	/dave

    It was foolish and inconciderate of me to use the label US
    women.  I apologize for this stupidity.  My values in relation
    to the original topic remain unchanged save for wording.

     re .44/re .42:
     
     It would also be nice if S Thompson would find a cure for his habit of
     writing a note, then deleting it after people have responded to it. 
     This is hardly the first instance where this has happened.
     
     If you're going to post a note in a conference, have the guts to leave
     it there (particularly if someone has responded to it). The hit-and-
     run practice is bullshit. 
     
     --Mr Topaz 

    re.47
    no need to explain Eagle 
    those of us with 1/2 a brain know what 80's noting is
    

    
    Persoannly I'm all ion favour of women resident in the US liking
    European men.
    
    See you in January! :-)

I take it Wendy's not sitting nearby this time?
 (-: :-)
  <_Jym_>

    Nah, she was watching. European women have  so much better a sense
    of humour, y'know... :-)

I am a U.S. woman..  and darn proud to be so..
I am well read, well traveled, open to new ideas and interested in world 
affairs..  I will not belittle myself to explain my hygiene habits but I
will state that keeping clean in the correct manor consumes little of my
day.  If I choose to perfume my body it is because I feel good doing so and
a sense of well being attributes itself to a positive image.  I don't have
stock in major cosmetic markets so I don't feel the need to keep them running
but I use what it is I feel it takes to look and feel good.  I speak two
languages as well are read and write in them.  I managed a degree on almost
a zero bank account and have managed to keep a family intact on my own for
almost 6 years.  I am not boasting, I am stating facts.  I think my facts
speak for themselves... they say that to lump U.S. woman together and make
such broad statements in their behalf is arrogant and narrow minded.  
Considering I am a woman who has achieved even less than many others I know
only shows that intolerant, blanket statements are as worthless as the
energy you expended to state them.  

later, gailann  (who very much wanted to say simply "blow it out your ear"
but decided that an intelligent well reasoned response would only further
enlighten an obviously ill enlightened person.)

    Look, he DID say he was sorry...

    WISH LIST REVISITED
    
    How about a woman who doesn't smoke, loathes TV
    
    and doesn't go ga-ga for horses ?

    
    Well that request should be easy to fulfill! I know dozens of people
    who don't smoke, loathe T.V. and don't go ga-ga over horses.
    
    Been listening to the stereotyping too much, methinks.

    
    
    except for .23 i have a feeling i'm going to end up an old maid!!!
    
    

    
    do you men have all the qualities that you're looking for in a woman???
               
    

    
    
    	I may not but I do try.... It would be nice to meet someone
    	else who does.. (No, no bad attitude here.. Just personal
    	experience)
    							mike

	re -2

	If I had the qualities that I look for in a woman, why would I be 
	looking????

@ @
 ^ )
\_/

Richard.

    
    RE: .59
    
    i'll give you credit for a valid point!!!
    
    it just seemed to me that the men in this conference were asking
    alittle too much of "one" woman.  but then i guess you could say
    the same thing about women...asking too much in a man i mean.
    
    

    re .60
    
    I could present a list of IDEALS here, but that would be foolish.
    If the discussion comes up about certain qualities, I could tell
    you what my ideal is for that particular quality. I fully recognize
    that no one person could fulfill all of those ideals. No one is
    perfect and therefore you have to look at the whole person. If
    someone has a particular trait that you just can't stand, that
    trait may override the others that are perfect. 
    
    Bob Mc
    

    What you want doesn't always equal what you get.  If you want too
    many or too specific traits in a partner, you will probably grow
    old being single.  One of my beliefs in having a lasting relationship,
    which I have for 14 years now, and going strong, is the ability
    to overlook some shortcomings.  If we are separate on an issue,
    we discuss it and usually meet halfway.  There are some traits that
    my wife doesn't have, that I would like to have in her, but I overlook
    them because they aren't important.  She has enough other traits
    that I like to overshadow them.  Where I lack, she excels and vice
    versa.  We complement each other.  I have a terrible temper and
    she is very understanding.  And we also compliment each other whenever
    possible. ;-)  We mesh like gears to keep our lives going.  If you
    can't work out your differences, then the differences will tear
    you apart.  She likes big dogs, I like small dogs, so we got one
    of each.  She wanted a small car, I wanted a 4WD truck, so we got
    one of each.  She finally decided that the 4WD was more practical,
    so now we have 2 4WDs.  I allow her (please, no letters) to work
    2nd shift although I work 1st shift.  If I desire, I can ask her
    to go to 1st shift and she would, just to make me happy, but I'd
    rather she be happy in her job.  We get weekends together, and my
    evenings are free to do what I want.  We share housework, about
    60/40, but I'm getting better.  She reads a lot, I raise fish. 
    She reads a lot, I knit.  She also reads a lot, while I play with
    the computer.  But we both love all aspects of the outdoors.
    
    She has disrupted my life for the better.  Interfered, if you will.
    This interference has kept me out of trouble (and jail).
    
    My wish list (if I were looking):
    
    Pleasant to look at, but not a raving beauty.  I prefer 'cute'.
    Pleasant figure, not too heavy or thin.  I like an athletic look.
    Similar interests.
    Understanding.  I have a lot of faults that she would have to cope
    	with.  I'm working on them.
    Conservative.  I wonder if a conservative could live with a liberal.
    Short, say 5' to about 5'6".  My wife is 5'3".  I'm 5'9".
    Sense of humor.  She tells me that she stays with me because I make
    	her laugh.  I don't like anyone who is too serious.  You've
    	gotta be able to laugh.
    
    My wife fits all of these.  
    
    Spence

    
       I wish:
    
    
        for a Good Job to support my music habit. (which I finally have!)

        for my OWN Limo  (which really isn't That expensive used).
    
        for a 100 peice drum set!
    
        for a compatible, special SO (which I have).
    
        to finally go back to where I was born, LA California!
    
    
         ...that's too much...give or take a couple years.
    
    Peter

        What I'd like to see in a date, SO, that special someone:
    
           1.  I'd like for once, to have a date that doesn't constantly
               make a reference to how she'd LOVE to meet and marry
    	       a rich man.
    
      	   2.  One who doesn't feel the need to sit and vegetate in
    	       a bar, wasting good brain cells.
    
           3.  One who can accept a person for what they are, what they
               want out of life, and not to try and change them.  Maybe
               that's a bit utopian, but I can fantasize, can't I?
    
    						Phil
    

    Phil...there are a few of us out there like that...guess you just
    havent found any of us yet !!!
    
    

    Ditto to .65
    
    We really are out there!!!!!

    
    	Top of the wish list for me would be someone that would
    	accept me as I am. In every relationship I've had, after
    	the initial courtship is past the woman sets to "re-make"
    	me into the person SHE thinks I should be rather than to
    	accept the one I am as was when we met. I could never understand
    	this, if a person isn't what you wanted why start a relationship
    	with them in the first place?

    Someone to grow old with
    Someone I can talk to
    Someone I can listen to
    Someone with a sense of humor
    Someone with a serious side
    Someone who is bright and intelligent
    Someone who works hard
    Someone who speaks their mind
    Someone who respects others
    Someone who respects herself
    Someone who accepts me, for all my faults and failings
    A partner...

    I believe my wife fits the above pre-requisites perfectly!

    
    Someone who leaves in the morning without my tee shirt and sweatpants.
    
    Someone who doesn't rearrange my apartment
    
    Someone who says I only need a man every now and then
    
    Someone who is only commited to her pets
    
    Someone who doesn't take everthing so serious and can laught at the
    stupidest things
    
    Someone who is financially independant and wants to take ME to dinner
    
    Someone who will sit at the end of the tub with the nozzle so it won't
    be in my back for once.
    
    Someone who will leave my dishes alone when I say I will do them later
    
    Someone who has thier own house with a garage so I can park my Harley in
    the rain
    
    Someone who is kind,considerate,sweet,pretty and all that other mushy
    stuff.
    
    
    Steve 

    Re: 69
    
    I wish a man would park his Harley in my garage!!!
    
    (and leave me the keys)

    RE: .62
    
     Spense,  that was such a nice note!!!   You're wife is a very lucky
    lady!!  (and vice-versa)  *SIGH* !!
    
     I'm just starting a "life-long" relationship, my fiance' and I will
    be married this coming September!!  We are both SO anxious to start
    a family and a new life together.  
    
     We have a lot of the same interests, but SOME differences!   Which we
    discuss and work out.   He's terrific!!  I love 'em!!  8^)
    
    		** SIGH **
    Sandy 
     

    RE: .27
    
    I'm sure your wish NOT to have an American woman will be granted!  I
    strongly suggest you move to another country (or planet!!!).
    
    I'm thankful to be an all-American woman.