Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    I haven't gotten any catcalls from any women for several weeks
    now. A leer or 2 while out running, maybe...
                               
    Nebbechs who do it are crude and undignified boors, and they make 
    women *even more* hostile to men in general.  

    Ditto on that last para Mr Holt.
    
    I DO think that she is going a little too far though...
    If she doesnt like it then she should say something about it IF
    IT HAPPENS TO HER or even whilst she is present.
    
    FWIW: If this is the same woman I say in the Herald a couple of
    weeks ago, I tend to wonder about the man that would "CATCALL" HER!
    

    
    
    Well, being a woman, I can relate to the catcall question.  Let's
    see if you can understand this one.  
    
    Ok - before, when I didn't have my (a) boyfriend I used to love
    it when I got catcalls.  I'd turn around and say something back
    or just smile and the guys and flirt a little.  Used to make me
    feel real good!  Now that I have Jamie, it disgusts me when someone
    gives me a catcall!  I usually turn around and give them a rotten
    look or just ignore them and keep walking.  Sometimes if I'm really
    upset by it, I flip 'em the bird and call them perverts!!
    
    Tracy
    

    
    Isn't a catcall another, (although crude), way of complimenting a womans
    looks.

    Jim

    re .4:
    
    Yup, and slobbering on the Mona Lisa is another, (although crude)
    way of showing your appreciation for art.  The Italian authorities
    would probably not be amused, however.
    
    Not all displays of appreciation are percieved equally, particularly
    intrusive ones.
    
    /Dave

    Well.  Let's see.  I can say I might tolerate or be mildly flattered
    by a wolf whistle (depending on my mood).  I am not playing miss
    high-and-mighty here, I just feel very uncomfortable being noticed
    like this, since it's a new concept to me.  If someone should remark
    in passing that they find me attractive and I feel unthreatened
    by the situation (I generally don't advocate encouraging strangers
    in this manner), I may smile quietly, or thank them, and leave it at that.  
    
    But comments to the effect of certain bodily parts I happen to possess,
    and what the construction workers would like to do to them, piss
    me off.  Exclamation point.
    
    Certainly a cat can look at a king (or a construction worker can look
    at extremely attractive passing women)....but they shouldn't be too
    vocal if they happen to have any sexually specific thoughts.  That is
    downright offensive. 
    
    If this woman were to complain to the men vocally, it would do no
    good, they'd just laugh at her, or even increase the catcalling.
    Of course, she could threaten their company with sexual harassment
    suits if she really wanted them to stop.  Then again, why doesn't
    she just avoid the construction site?
    
    And another thing, I know a man who does construction-type work,
    and him and his buddies go cruising at lunch every day to gaze at
    the women out walking.  And they notice that some of the women are
    very attractively packaged.  And they notice that some of the women
    are out strolling at the *particular* time they drive by every
    day...and generally in the same place.  Some women seem to *want*
    to be ogled, and dress for the situation, and jiggle and sway most
    provacatively as they walk.  Obviously they are trying to get a
    reaction.  But most women don't fall into this category, and would
    rather any explicit remarks go unheard.
    
    As for my appreciation of passing men, it is generally in the form
    of a glance to a female friend with raised eyebrows, indicating
    "wow, did you see that?".  Or sometimes, once they're out of earshot,
    I will purr appreciatively in the back of my throat.  Nothing too
    vocal, I assure you.

    -Jody
    

    
    Why is it that men who shout catcalls only do so when they are in
    a group of other men?  They never shout anything if they are
    alone.  Do they need the security of the group?  Any ideas!
    
    Mi

    
    
    >> Why is it that men who shout catcalls only do so when they <<
    >> are in a group other men??		                  <<
    
    
    I don't find that true.  I have been walking down the street, gotten
    a catcall, and seen only one person in the car.
    
    
    
    Tracy
    
    

    re: .8
    
    But, notice that he was in a *car* (eg: tool of escape).  A single
    man sitting on a step probably wouldn't catcall because if he did
    the woman involved may confront him ONE ON ONE.  There is safety
    in numbers (or with a bonafide method of escape), all to avoid the
    possibility of a one-on-one confrontation.
    
    I think what it boils down to is ONE) insecurity and TWO) displaying
    ones "manhood"(?) to ones peers.
    jim
    

    Hey listen men have to put up with things too. I just came back
    from the cafeteria and two women were looking at me and one of them
    wanted me I guess. I heard her tell the other woman, "Get him".
    Should I go to personel ?

    Jim

    An overheard remark isn't the same as getting yelled at rudely.
    
    Bonnie

    I think that people are reading too much into this.  I don't see
    anything wrong with a whistle or an "I think I'm in love" or something
    like that.  I do think that when people start getting obscene, it's
    taking it too far.  I don't think that it's insecurity or anything
    else.  I worked construction for ten years before coming to digital
    and have seen many catcalls made by the construction workers and
    at the construction workers.  Most of them were clean and aprreciative
    of the other persons looks.  Most of them were recieved quite well
    by both the women and men.  (Actually all were recieved well by
    the men)  I think to start psychoanalyzing this practice is a bit
    much.  As long as its done in good taste, go for it.  
    
                                               Mike

    Some of you who think that catcalls are just good clean fun
    might want to take a look at how the same subject is being
    treated in womannotes.
    
    Bonnie

    I'd rather go on what I've seen in my own experiences.  I'm sure
    people have had bad experiences, however, from what I've seen (and
    it's been quite a lot), these incidents are very much in the minority.
    Let's not confuse people who catcall with perverts, there's a BIG
    difference.
    
    Mike

    They are as primitive and obnoxious as the people who utter them.
    It also seems that this uncivilized behaviour does not distinguish
    race, color, creed or socio-economic strata. 

    Why is it always constrution sites that are brought up on this subject.
    If wonder if the construction workers whistling to the crane operator
    are mistaken for catcalls ?
    
    Jim

    in re .14
    
    Well, Mike, I'm sorry that you feel that way. However, I would
    suggest that anyone who wants to know how catcalls are experienced
    by women take a look at the note in womannotes.
    
    Bonnie

It's a very rare occasion when I can take my evening stroll without having
someone yell something nasty at me. Unfortunately, I don't live near a 
quiet country road where I wouldn't have to put up with it. I've learned
to block it out for the most part, but it's the *holes that throw things
that really piss me off.

Jenna

    
    I'm writing this before reading the others 'cos my train's about
    to arrive so sorry if it's already been said squillions of times.
    
    Do I catcall (wolfwhistle to ze Eeeengleeeeeeesh) ? No
    Why ? I get embarrassed
    Why ? I can't whistle very well
    
    I don't see anything wrong with it all . Lewd or suggestive remarks
    are different . Unless the other person is 'asking' for it .
    Women generally don't (I think you'll agree that *some* do) .
    So they shouldn't have to suffer for it .
    
    
    Gotta go 
    
    John J

    RE catcalls in general: As long as they are not leud comments I
    think they are just silly ways the "boys" express themselves. I
    don't take offense to them, and usually can't help smiling because
    I just think they're silly. The leud ones best go ignored, no reason
    to bring further attention to yourself my arguing the point.
    
    I've always gotten the feeling that the woman that protest the loudest
    about how terrible the catcalls are, are usually the one that never
    get the catcalls. Funny how that works. (I'll get the wrath of the
    womansnoters on this one)
    
    Gail      

    

    RE: .21 
    
    Thats kinda how I look at it. The silly ones are harmless and
    usually meant in a jesting kind of way. The lewd ones however I
    think are just plain disrepectful and I catagorize those with
    racial/sexist slurs; uncalled for and unnecessary.
    
    I also agree with your last paragraph, generally speaking of course.

    RE.19 I'm sure most people can make that distinction.  Anything
    lewd, in my opinion, is perverse.  Whistling, hey beautiful, I think
    I'm in love, etc, is in good fun.
    
    RE:.21 I love the way you presented that.  I think most are meant
    as compliments.  The ones that are lewd, don't deserve a reaction.
    
    Bonnie, all I was saying is that I'm sure people have had bad
    experiences with this, however, most are meant as a compliment (not
    the lewd ones) and should be taken that way.  
    
    Mike

    yeah, Eagles, and if they do 'come on over' they'll find that
    you've been there all along! :-)
    
    Bonnie

    
    They have Suzanne ready to spring from ambush, so lookout! -;

    
         I USUALLY DON'T RESPOND, BUT THIS ONE I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT.
    WHEN I SEE A WOMAN WHO HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO LOOK LIKE A WOMAN I
    AM THE FIRST ONE TO "CAT CALL." BY THAT I DONT MEAN SAYING SOMETHING
    TO ENTERTAIN MY BUDDIES, OR SOMETHING TO DEGRADE THE WOMAN. WHAT
    I DO IS DIRECT A SHORT PHRASE OF APPRECIATION TO THE WOMAN. AND
    IN ALL THE TIME I HAVE DONE IT, I HAVE NEVER BEEN MET WITH DIRTY
    LOOKS OR NEGATIVE COMMENTS OF ANY KIND. I THINK THAT A FEMALE WHO
    PRESENTS HERSELF AS A LADY, HAS ENOUGH CLASS TO ACCEPT AN
    APPRECIATIVE REMARK AS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN THAT. 
    
                                                           CHUCK

    an appreciative remark, from a friend or a known person, is
    wonderful and welcome.. that's not what I would call a 'catcall'
    however.
    
    Bonnie

    Re: .30
    
         Only if he doesn't have hairy knuckles, a trenchcoat and pantlegs
    tied on above the knee.
    
                                      Greg

    in re .30
    
    mike,
    
    in a safe environment, yes, 
    
    i.e. if I am walking down the hall at work and you pass me and
    think I look very nice and say, 'hey, you look really sharp'..
    I will feel very flattered!
    
    if I am walking down the street and a man hollers something at me
    from a car or a group of guys yell something at me, I'll be
    frightened and nervous and very uncomfortable.
    
    does that make sense?
    
    Bonnie

    > i.e. if I am walking down the hall at work and you pass me and
    > think I look very nice and say, 'hey, you look really sharp'..
    > I will feel very flattered!

    Now, how about if you are walking down the street and a man passes
    you says 'hey, you look really sharp'?
    
    In your note .32 you changed not only the environment but the comment
    and the manner in which it was delivered.  This is apples and oranges!

    comments?
    jim
        
    

          Well, here goes " WHIRRRIIII   WHIRRIILLLL"
    
    
          AH, now I feel better.
    
    
                                                    Russ

    in re .33 in re .32
    
    what I meant was that a lot of how a woman, (or at least
    this woman) takes things, depends on the situation..
    
    if I feel safe, a nice remark from a strange man is welcome..
    
    if I don't, even the nicest remark can make me a bit nervous
    
    does that make any more sense to you?
    
    
    b

    I heard a young woman get a catcall that was REALLY lewd by some
    guy in a car with some other dimwits. Even I was shocked and embarassed
    by it. I yelled over to her "I hope you don't think all men are like
    that" and she yelled back to me that she didn't. 
    
    There's a difference between responding in a natural way at being
    knocked out of your socks by someone who is attractive to you and
    this kind of antisocial behavior.
    

    I just came back from lunch, and had a few cute construction workers
    "cat-call" as I walked by...and they made my day.  Now, don't get
    me wrong...I don't think that lewd and disgusting remarks made at
    ANYONE is appropriate, but an occasional whistle, and a "don't you
    look lovely" statement can boost my ego ANY day!!!!
                                               
    
    Jill
    

    I think the question of "who is attractive" being a learned response
    is a topic unto itself. Is this one of those questions like "How
    has Hollywood changed our definition of attractiveness"?
    
    To get back on track with the topic though there are different ways of 
    expressing one's initial attraction, and there seems to be quite a
    range between the possible extremes. Smiling to someone who has
    caught your eye is probably well-received by most (but not all) people.
    Winking is a little more suggestive. 
    
    Likewise, there is a large variety of catcalls ranging from howls
    to wolf whistles to lewd remarks. 
    
    Personally, I've never minded catcalls to me by women. Kinda liked
    it as a matter of fact. But if anyone were to yell about a part
    of my anatomy I'd be fuming.

    
         I WAS NOT REFERRING ONLY TO WOMEN WHO ARE ACQUAINTANCES. AND
    MAYBE MY MESSAGE WAS UNCLEAR. PLEASE, LET ME REPHRASE. THE TYPE
    OF COMMENT OR THE ORIGINATOR OF THE COMMENT SHOULD BE EVALUATED
    BY THE RECIPIENT. IF IT IS AN APPRECIATIVE COMMENT, TREAT IT AS
    SUCH, AND IF IT IS TRASH... 

    I don't mind the cat calls if I'm in my car and can drive right
    pass the guys, but when I have to *walk* past them, I get real nervous!
    (Unless I'm with friends.  Then I'll just flirt right back!)
   
    But, I take them as a compliment.  I do feel, however, that some
    guys need to be more subtle.
    
    
    

    Re .40
    
    Doesn't that rather depend on *what* they said about part of your
    anatomy .
    
    I remember two women in a car asking *VERY* loudly how I managed
    to have such a cute bottom . Not to me , but to each other .
    
    Embarrassed or what ?!? 
    
    But it certainly made *my* day .
    
    Of course , if they'd said "I bet you've got zits on yer ass" I'd
    probably be a bit miffed . Whatever happens , we all have the right
    of reply .
    
    Excercise it .
    
    John J 
    

    Well, I guess I'll be the one person who doesn't agree...
    
    I have worked REALLY hard in the last year to make myself look good...
    physically... Coming down from 250 pounds was not an easy thing
    to do...  I have gone from a size 28 to a size 11/12 (small/med
    depending on what it is now)...  I have worked hard with my beautician
    to make my hair just the right color to match my skin...  I've learned
    the tricks with makeup, so that it doesn't look like I have any
    on, but compliments my face...
    
    When I walk by a group of guys, and I hear a *yo baby*, or a whistle
    - IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD inside...  yeah, I know, inside I am still
    the same person, and those making the comments would have to know
    the *real* me to know me... but still  after ALL the hard work (and
    I'm not done yet!!), its nice to hear the catcalls...
    
    Just a 6 cents worth...

    
    RE .13  No need, I am very well aware what the bash club's
            opinion is of anything that a man does. Since we're
            all and always wrong for and about everything it would
            be a waist of time.
                                         Bob B
            

    gee Bob, I'm sorry you think we are a bunch of (strident dirt
    bags???) what evers...
    
    all I thought was - if men want to know what a reasonably wide
    variety of women think about cat calls, that they would like to
    read the notes in both files.
    
    me I found them frightening when I got them in the streets as a
    young woman, (not counting here, remarks in a safe environment
    from men who are familar or friends)....but I suspose that since
    I am over 40 and am no longer thin, that the reason I don't like
    cat calls is that I don't get them any more and am jealous of
    those who do...
    
    sigh
    
    Bonnie

    Here Bonnie....
    RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrr.  (simulated catcall)
    :-)
    
    Strident Dirt bags????  Hmmmmm
    Wide Variety???  In what context???  Opinions? or geographically?
    (sp)
    
    I tend to ...never mind....would only head straight to the rathole..

    Gee, thanks Al, (I think) :-)

re: .50
First, you say:
>    What is true about that conference and others as well, is that
>    when someone makes a gross generalization based solely on opinion,

Then you continue:
>   ................... Lots of men including myself and one of the
>    co-mods of this conference have often been told that our thoughts
>    and opinions are welcome and valued.  And this is fact, not
>    opinion.
    
A guy expresses his opinion and you write it off as "opinion", then state
that "opinions are welcome and valued".

Make up your mind.

Kip

    re: .51
    
    The difference is that those who've been told that their
    remarks are welcome usually do so without making generalizations
    that are based soley on opinion.  In fact, it's rare that these
    folks make gross generalizations at all.  
    
    Comments such as "All x are always y. . ." are usually challenged, 
    particularly when there is obvious factual evidence to the contrary.
    
    There's a world of difference between: 
    
    "I feel that some noters in this confernce have the attitude that 
    all x are y." 
    
    and 
    
    "In this conference the attitude is that all x are y."
    
    Does that help clarify my remarks?
    
    Steve
    
    

re: .52
>    Does that help clarify my remarks?
    
Somewhat.  Thanks for the response.

When someone says "Well, that's *your* opinin" it really gets me.  When a
person speaks, it's obvious who's opinion it is.  (Same idea when someone
begins a sentence with "Well, in *my* opinion"...)

Kip

         Well in *my* opinion, starting a sentence this way is better
    than asserting that the following comment was fact (though
    unsupported).
    
                                    Grog

So, someone states an opinion, not implying it's fact, and someone else
infers that's what they meant.

Kip

        Concerning a previous note which asked why cat-calling behavior
    seemed to be confined to groups of men, I reference a later note
    in which a woman stated that she was uncomfortable when she received
    a cat-call while alone, but "flirted right back" when with others.
    The men engage in cat-calling because they have the support of their
    group.  The women encourage cat-calling by responding favorably to it,
    because they also are in a group.  These are common characteristics of 
    group dynamics.  While the men may be faulted for making cat-calls,
    the women must also be faulted for encouraging a behavior that they
    feel is threatening at a personal level.  The woman will not always be
    in a group, but the cat-callers will (by definition).  If women do
    not like certain behavior on a personal level, they should not
    encourage it on a group level (and this goes for "safe" and "unsafe"
    situations as well -- a male who's actions are constantly reinforced  
    in "safe" settings will no doubt behave similarly in "unsafe"
    situations, as his definition of "safe" cannot be expected to be
    the same as everyone else's.)
       

    re: .56
    
    Hear Hear!  enough of this double standard!  tell men you don't
    like it when you are in a group, and they are less likely to think
    about harassing you when you are alone.
    
    well, not today, they will probably think you are a cold bitch,
    but eventually they will learn that maybe you aren't, maybe they
    are the ones being rude.

    I'm replying to the question of how do you know if they are nice
    or not.
    
    You don't the last job I worked at before starting at DEC as a tag
    was next door to another building who hired prisoners on a work
    release program, anyway they started out with just catcalls which
    were easy enough to ignore but steadily got worse into obscenity.
    I didn't know they were from a jail until about a month after this
    had been going on (in the morning and at lunch they all sat outside
    facing our parking lot waiting for any girl to come in or go out.)
    it was scary because I kept thinking they probably hadn't been with
    a woman for a long time, and would I be mauled when I went out fro
    lunch?  Anyway I'm glad I don't work there anymore, and I don't
    care for catcalls even if they are supposed to be compliments.

    I don't have the time to read all replies, so will jump in here.
    
    I absolutely hate catcalls.  I used to walk to work every day and
    got harassed for the whole hour I walked.  I had to wlak around
    one building, and every morning a whole shop full of men would hang
    out the window and yell until I was around the corner.  Where was
    their boss every day?  Why should a woman be subjected this simply
    for presenting herself outside?  Why,when I;m trying to enjoy something
    for myself should I be made so uncomfortable?
    
    So, I tried to hang in there, not let them get to me, tune them
    out with my Walkman.  So one came up from behind me and "jumped"
    me one morning on a less populated stretch of the road.  I wasn't
    badly hurt, and still tried to continue walking after a few days,
    but I was too afraid and all the enjoyment was gone for me, so I
    gave it up.  BEsides, I still had to listen to all the a**holes
    getting their jollies yelling out things to someone who would 
    never in a lifetime be impressed by such ignorant behaviour.
    
    Ok, I';m chilling back out now.  Guess this is a pet peeve with
    me :-).  I;ll return to my rose sniffing....
    
                           cj *->
    

re; not encouraging them;

There is no consistent definition of what means "encouragement" to a man.  
There are some generally accepted gestures of encouragement for most of us, 
but...to each thing the majority agrees to, there is a minority begging to 
differ.  Some men will be encouraged (also if they are with a group of men) by 
a woman giving them dirty looks and telling them to shut up.  Others will be 
encouraged if she ignores them.  Others will be encouraged if she looks.  
Others will be encouraged if she smiles.  The problem is, the woman walking by 
probably doesn't know exactly what moves will be encouraging to the man/men and 
which moves will make him/them quiet down or leave her alone.

    Re: .61
    
    What other exceptions would you be willing to make, Marge?	I'm
    not disagreeing with your major point, but am curious as to where
    you draw the line for "she's asking for it."
    
    				Steve

    re: .61
    And who the h*ll every said that any woman is required to interpret
    anything??  reply .60 certainly didn't!  .60 was simply making an
    observation and offering to this note.  At no time was any comment
    made to the effect that women should know this and use it and/or
    anything else.
    
    Or did I miss something...?
    jim
    

    ,64
    You missed nothing... there was nothing there TO miss...

    RE: .66
    
    Uhhh, Marge. I don't know quite how to tell you this.
    
    But the "he" you refer to as having written .60 is a "she".
    
    So much for that theory.........
    
      Alan 

                                
    re -.1
    
    What a broad spectrum whine.
                                   
    Gun gripes to soapbox, ok? 

	You may be able to gain better access to Soapbox than we do
    where it is within easy driving distance ...  However since the
    whining wimp "liberal" element goes around thinking they have their
    precious 1st amendment rights when it suits them to try to mouth off
    AGAINST our 2nd amendment rights to own guns ...  Remember you are
    simply showing yourself to be unfair to expect us to tolerate
    your "liberal" ranting and raving throughout the E-Net ...  So
    the next thing to consider is this ...  Since .69 has absolutely
    no bearing on the topic at hand while .68 is marginal at best,
    we suggest the moderators muzzle Mr.Holt's worthless replies !!!!

  ~--e--~  Eagles_Have_Expressed_a_Debatable_Opinion_Unlike_Halting_Holt's

    Re: .71
    
    Marge, are you saying, then, that a woman is most times unaware of
    the effect she or her manner of dress will have on men?
    
    Did Lady Godiva not desire to be noticed?
    
      Alan 

I was talking to my sister on the phone the other day.  She was upset 
because her love life was not going well.  She talked of the desire to 
be "buddies" with a guy, to date him and get to know him, before sex 
and sexuality come barging in.  

At one point, she said, "Gerry, I guess...I'm pretty.  But I can't 
stand it a lot of the time.  I mean, I walk down the street on the way 
to work and I get these jerks saying stuff to me and coming on to me.  
I _hate_ it.  I mean, I put then in their place, I can handle that.  
It's just that they make me feel like a bimbo, and I'm not.  But how 
can I do anything about it."

I wish you all could have heard all the saddness in her voice and all 
the negative stuff she was saying about being "pretty."  For those of 
you who will say that my sister should not let jerks get to you, I 
agree with you.  I feel that my sister owns 50% of the responsibility 
here.  But I think that guys own the other 50% of the responsibility 
for making a pretty woman very miserable.  Even the strongest person 
would not be able to shut out negative stuff when that person is 
exposed to it many times every day.

I'm not saying that we should legislate against it.  But I am saying
that I hope that guys are at least willing to listen to women who say
that catcalling is a _problem_.  I know that it is a problem for my
sister.  It has reduced her to tears and to devaluing her good looks.  



						--Gerry

    
    Yo, eagle...
    
    You oughtn't be so nasty to me .... I might mistake
    it for disguised approval -;
    
    I laugh when you mention worthless replies...tell me there
    are no glass houses out there..
    
    You oughta loosen up a bit. Everyone is *not* your enemy.

    
    Eag,
    
    Take a clue.
    
    You need a vacation. I know the perfect spot to unwind... 
    
    How about a jog up Pike's Peak....? 13 miles and 8000 ft up.
    It will take some of the starch out.
    
    You'll feel lots better if you didn't get so exorcised....

    It does seem, eagles, that lately all roads for you lead to
    firearms, freedom of speech, and/or "bleeding heart" liberals
    (esp. Gov. Dukakis).  I have no qualms discussing these or other
    issues with you and others, but I guess I'm a little surprised
    at the apparent anger and narrowness of focus I think I'm seeing
    these days - "surprised" because it seems out of character with
    the eagles I've seen in times past.  He was, to me, a person of
    considerably more moderate and measured voice. . .
    
    Steve