Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    What limits.  If divorce is unacceptable, then she has a few options. 
    If this is escalating toward violence in the fighting, arguing etc, or
    even if it hasn't yet, I would strongly recommend getting in touch with
    the local domestic violence prevention center.  She needs counseling on
    how to deal with threatening people, and he needs counseling on how to
    handle his anger.  If he won't go, she should any way.  She will learn
    techniques on how to work with an explosive individual constructively.  
    
    I honestly don't hold out much hope for this relationship, but if she
    is determined to remain with him, this is a start.
    
    Meg

    If divorce is 'out' is annulment practical? R has signed up for
    a man's responsibilities and then refused to grow up. Sister
    cannot be held to a contract with a *boy*.

    
    If I were your parents, I would kinldy tell the man to get out of the
    house.   He has no right to live there.  He is clearly slumming off
    your parents and it is wrong.  BUT until they do something to get him
    to realize the seriousness of the problem he is not going to change.
    
    Treat him like the ungrateful child he sounds like.  At least by
    kicking him out he will no longer be a burden both financial and
    emotional towards your parents.  
    
    My boyfriend was out of work for four months and it is a great blow
    to ones self esteem.  However, that is not an excuse for the behaviour
    he is exhibiting.  Your parents are enabling him to continue this 
    behavior.  If they want this to stop infrining on them, they should
    tell him to leave.  
    
    Also, I would definitely look into the annulment.  It may be a
    solution to your sister's problem.  
    
    Take care,
    Mi

    
    Some things to do:
    
       - Ask "R" why he left his job.  What didn't he like about it?
         What changed in his life to make him want to leave a successful,
         high-paying job and go back to being someone else's dependent?
    
       - Ask "R" why he complains about his wife's nagging.  Does she?
         Is she approaching the situation positively, or is she making
         him feel like a worthless failure?  Nagging someone isn't
         constructive and accomplishes nothing when they are already
         feeling bad about their life.
    
    Some things for the author of the base note to do:
    
       - Recommend that "R" and his family get professional counseling.
    
       - Be supportive, but keep out of it, don't take sides, and don't
         be judgemental.
    
       - Recognize that there are at least two sides to every story,
         and everyone's side deserves to be heard in an impartial and
         unbiased way.
         
    
       

    I agree with .4 and .5.  Beyond that one point is paramount.  He is
    responsible for his life and if he is ever to change he has to be held
    accountable.  No one can MAKE him change, but you can control YOUR side
    of the deal. For example: Both sets of parents can refuse to support
    him anymore. You can refuse to support him until he makes a consistent
    effort to find a job. (What a time to go job hunting! in this economy!)
    This is sort of the same as what is appropriate to the family of an
    alcoholic.... you MUST let him take his knocks which his action, or
    inaction causes.  Forget the pleading with him etc. etc. Forget the
    talking until he starts to come around.  If he is on the verge of
    violence CONTACT THE APPROPRIATE AGENCIES before someone gets hurt.
    He may be mentally ill.  If you follow the above suggests I think
    something will be forced... either he will 'grow up' and get a job,
    or it will be quite apparent that he is mentally incapable of it and
    perhaps a psychiatrist is needed.  Let us know how its going.  Jeff

    
     You may want to investigate "legal separation". It is designed for
    people whose religion or culture does not condone divorce. As I 
    understand it, it deals with all the aspects of a divorce (child 
    custody, division of marital property, visitation, child support,
    etc.) but is not really a divorce. 

    
    	The man needs help and either doesn't know it or won't
    	admit it.
    
    	The people around are either victims, "codependents," or
    	enablers.  But they are in a position to exercize a choice.
    	Since he seems unwilling or unable to make a decision for
    	himself, make one for him.  Kick him out.  Force him to
    	live with himself by himself.  It may be the only way to
    	get him to face reality and then deal with it.
    
    	You have to be concerned with your own welfare and health.
    	The situation as it exists is depleting everyone.  You can't
    	help someone unless they want to be helped and if they don't
    	then don't waste your time.  You owe it to yourself to get
    	on with your own life.
    
    ralph

    I have to agree with .8.  It looks to me (from my long distance and
    very limited viewpoint, and I am *not* a psycologist) that the man may
    be suffering from a general breakdown or what was popularly known a
    few years back as 'burnout'.  He will likely need counseling and a 
    *lot* of self motivation (which it doesn't look like he as at this
    point) to overcome this.
    
    If the wife in question is from a culture that does not permit
    divorce, then that culture will likely *require* the man to be
    the *bread winner*.  This only compounds the problem and makes
    the guilt and confustion they all are feeling worse.  Laying
    a "you worthless bum" guilt trip on him at this point will likely
    make the problem harder for him rather than easier.  If this is
    indeed the problem, then he needs *help* and *understanding* rather
    than accusations and condemnation.
    
    fred();

    
    	i'm not a professional (obviously), but it appears to
    	me he might be suffering from a personality disorder 
    	that's *forcing* him to disconnect.
    
    	before the family `kicks him out' i think a visit to a 
    	doctor is in order. 
    
    	if that's not the case than the previous replies apply,
    	IMHO.
    
    	denise

How about no access given to her or to the kids until he gets a job?



							--Ger

    If he still has a lot of friends who he spends time with, perhaps
    someone can get to one or more of the friends and ask them for
    help?   He may be telling the friends that everything is fine
    with him and his family.  The friends, once alerted to the
    real situation, may be able to  help him out.
    
    It sounds like something went wrong for the guy and his way of
    coping with it doesn't work for the rest of his family.  On the
    other hand, given a sumptuous breakfast and some spending money,
    why work?  (Naturally, I don't believe that, but it sounds like
    he does.)  Nagging from family doesn't work.  Maybe nagging from
    friends will.
    
    We haven't heard his side of the story, so it's hard to say much
    of value about the situation.
    
    Bill

    How about a Minister, Priest or Rabbi.  Whatever the religion,
    sometimes they have a way of talking to you without making you
    feel like its your problem, as much as a doctor would.
    
    

    
    
    BTW.  What it SHE doing to HELP the situation?  Other that sitting
    in sack cloth and ashes and trying to inlist everyone else's assistance
    to "condem and thrash the bum" that is.  I may be making a pretty drastic
    assumption here, but I think a *lot* of assumptions have already been
    made, ie. the title of this note.
    
    fred();

 I don't she should have to be his friggin' mother. He ought to grow up.

    
    re 14
    
    I agree with 15 also.  She is not his mother, and she should not have
    to treat him as such.  The base note mentioned that he feels she is
    "nagging" him.  So apparantly, she is trying to get him to accept his
    responsibilities.  Or at least she is making her feelings known to him.
    It was mentioned that there was a small child involved.  She has to
    give her time to the child also.  
    
    
    One thing I learned when living with an unemployed person.  Every 
    attempt you make at expressing your feelings is taken as a personal
    assault.  Not just some, but all, at least until the person realizes
    that they have the power to change the situation.  Once that has
    been realized, most attempts at helping are taken for what they are
    and that is a sign of help.
    
    This man quit his job (regardless of the reasons), moved out of his
    marital house and back into his parents, only to end up at his wife's
    parent's house.  I don't know about you, but to me that sends a very
    clear signal that the only person he cares about is himself.  He would
    not have quit his job if he were a real man who accepted the
    responsibilities that being married and having a child bring.  In this
    day and age you just do not do such things.  
    
    Fred what would you expect the woman married to this man to do in this
    situation?  What would you want her to do for him?
    
    Michele

    re last 2.
    
    I just think it's interesting that in note 483 there is a running
    argumenta about a *woman's* right to *choose* to stay home or work.
    Then in this note the man inquestion is being condemmed as a
    deadbeat because he is not working and *supporting her* in the 
    manner which she would like to be.  If she does indeed believe in
    the marriage vows of *till death do we part* then she should also
    consider *for better or worse* (barring violence of course).  Is 
    she working?  Maybe (assumption) she should start being a *partner*
    in the marriage and start trying to give the impression that she 
    really does want to *help* solve the problem rather than be his 
    judge, jury and exicutioner.   First question that needs answered
    is:  WHAT *IS* THE PROBLEM?
    
    fred();
    fred();

    The only evidence we have about this guy comes from the
    sister of his wife.  That is filtered through one woman,
    perhaps two.
    
    The guy was/is an engineer, I presume he got himself through
    college, got a degree, got a job, got married and had a kid.
    That doesn't sound like a deadbeat to me.
    
    (BTW, did the term "deadbeat" get applied by the writer of the
    original topic, or by the moderator who entered it?) 
    
    Then he quit his job for an unknown reason, went home, got
    kicked out, went to an alternate home, and now is not responding
    to pressure from family.  We have no idea what happened to him
    before he quit his job or what HE says about any of this.
    
    How come we are so quick to label him as irresponsible, a deadbeat?
    How come we are so quick to kick a--?  Can't the guy have a problem
    that is too much for him?  And if he yields to it, does that give
    all of us the right to kick him around?
    
    Want to know why guys get heart attacks?  That's why, because the
    culture says if you screw up, you are scum.
    
    Cheez!  We (I include myself in the "we")  don't know diddly about
    this situation until we've heard as much from him as we've heard
    from his wife's sister.  And I hope some of us can hold a little
    compassion in reserve for the guy.
    
    Bill                                                

>    Then in this note the man inquestion is being condemmed as a
>    deadbeat because he is not working and *supporting her* in the 
>    manner which she would like to be.

 He's also not supporting himself, nor his child. He's not trying to either.
He's sitting on his buttocks and waiting to be served like a king.

>Maybe (assumption) she should start being a *partner*
>    in the marriage and start trying to give the impression that she 
>    really does want to *help* solve the problem rather than be his 
>    judge, jury and exicutioner. 

 Oh. I guess the fact that she's taking care of their kid doesn't qualify as 
being a partner? What's he doing to improve the situation? Swilling beer? 
Leeching off the in-laws? Sleeping late?

 She ought to sue him for false advertising. :-)

> First question that needs answered is:  WHAT *IS* THE PROBLEM?

 Oh nothing. It's perfectly acceptable to just up and quit your job and abdicate
all of your responsibility to your family and your creditors. What a great
idea. Why don't we all do it?

>    The only evidence we have about this guy comes from the
>    sister of his wife.  That is filtered through one woman,
>    perhaps two.

 This is true and may or may not have any impact at all on the facts of the
matter. Unless deliberate deception is going on, it sounds like you could find 
this guy's picture in the dictionary under "deadbeat."

>We (I include myself in the "we")  don't know diddly about
>    this situation until we've heard as much from him as we've heard
>    from his wife's sister.  And I hope some of us can hold a little
>    compassion in reserve for the guy.

 We do know "diddly." We don't know everything, but based on the information
we do know, we can certainly make a determination as to what sort of person
he MAY be. And besides, whether this particular person is as bad as it
appears is relatively unimportant; we can certainly use this as a seed for a
hypothetical discussion, can't we?

 As far as compassion goes, you've got to deserve it. There are so many people
with sadder stories, it's tough to get too choked up about someone who does
things to himself and doesn't appear to want to change things. 

 The Doctah

Not that it really matters, but the gender of the anonymous author was never
stated.

				Steve

    Because the information we have about him is limited and he has had
    NO direct input to the notes file I, as we all are in this string are
    making our comments based on the information we do have.
    
    I have not gotten the impression that the guy is mentally sick. What
    is he doing which indicates that?  Other than quiting his job when 
    everybody (unless they are independantly wealthy) can't do that and
    in some ways acting like a big kid doesn't mean he IS mentally ill.
    One of my earlier notes in this string was intended to test that
    assumption.  I did say put pressure on him (kick him out) and see
    what happens. I didn't say leave him on the street if he couldn't 
    handle being kicked out.  Sometimes a person needs 'a kick in the
    butt' to make them see reality. Myself and others in the note 
    have been trying to help him do that through our suggestions to the
    wife.  At the same time there are other people involved here, people
    who are being hurt some by his actions/inactions.  THEY deserve better
    treatment than he is providing for them.... therefore (by my way of
    thinking) it is hardly unfair to stress the guy a bit to try and figure
    out what is going on.  I assume he has a mouth and COULD tell people
    if he choose to.  Based on the info I see in this notes file he is 
    either "a deadbeat" or mentally ill.   Jeff
    

Hmm, I thought the idea was to give advice to the basenote author, not try to
analyze this "deadbeat".

Since speculation seems to be the theme of this note, I'm going to speculate
that the basenote author and his sister and his sister's husband are all asian.
Since I'm pretty familiar with some of the constraints of living in an asian
culture, and I read the note with those attitudes in place, I had an entirely
different reaction.

I'm very sympathetic to the problem that everyone is in. Since his parents
have kicked him out, you've lost a lot of the leverage that could be used on
him. Have *your* parents talked to him? Are they bothered by the situation?
What are they willing to do about it? It's their house, it's their daughter,
he's their son-in-law, they should talk to him. Yes, he's loud and abusive, but
they need to do SOMETHING. Can they do like his parents and refuse to provide
free room and board?

Have they talked to his parents? Can the two families together do something?
Is he not serious about looking for a job just because he doesn't have to find
one, or is he actually worried that he may not be able to find one? If he
doesn't look, he can't fail, right? He may be feeling pretty worthless himself,
that may be compounding the problem.

I don't know how you or your family feel about talking to an outside counselor,
but that might be a good idea too. If that's not possible, I would certainly
keep talking about it amongst yourselves.


My mother is a licensed social worker dealing in family practice and
specializing in asian families (she's Japanese). If you'd like her number I can
give it to you - but she's in San Diego.

	Good luck,
	-- Charles

    As mentioned in .17 and .18 (forget .19) there seems to be to much we
    don't know, such as Why.
    
    For instance, does he have a drug problem, does she have a lack of sex
    problem to go along with her religious views, is all this new to them.
    
    If I had to deal with this I'd like to think that my wife would support
    me in a positive manner like getting a job herself.  Of cource I
    wouldn't expect her to cook those breakfasts that I here about, and how
    does he get around, by car?  Where does he get the money?  Is it on a
    regular basis?  Does he have and the wife and the kid have clean
    clothes.
    
    The person who complains (or naggs in this case) is just as much at
    fault as the person who quit the job.  If he wants to sit on his a**
    as it gets fat, sooner or later he'll run out of food.  He'll wake up. 
    Her parents didn't help by taking them in.  Then again are they
    starving (we don't know).
    
    She shouldn't try to change him, she should change herself, either by
    changing her religiuos beliefs, by getting a job, or slipping into his
    life style.  If he wants to change than he will. 
    
    This may seem like a do nothing attitude, but what I'm saying is not to
    let him become a "Deadbeat" by complaining he's a bumb, pick him up out
    of the whole. 
    

    re -1
    
    " the person who naggs or complains is just as much at fault"
    
    Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.  When John lost his job
    I had nothing to do with it.  He was in a situation where the company
    got hit by the economy.   Complaining was a way of me voicing my
    opinion on his lack of motivation.  I realized soon though that 
    I was not the person who was going to get him a job.  I did not
    constanly nagg him, but I did make him aware of how his not working
    was affecting me and more importantly how it was affecting us.
    I held no blame or fault for this situation.  It was his problem to
    fix, but I was there for help.  
    
    If this person's sister just stood by and did not voice her opinion
    to her husband, how would he know how his lack of a job is affecting
    her, their child, and their relationship?  According to the base
    note, he quit his job.  He needed no help from her in making that
    decision.  I don't see how you can justify switching the problem from
    him to her?  
    
    If she is in a religion that prohibits divorce, then most likely she is
    in a religion that requires her to be the care taker of the child.  Who
    will take care of the child if she does get a job?  Don't you think
    that if she was able to get a job it would cause more stress on him?
    Afterall, he is not working, but if she were working at an outside job
    she would seem superior to him in the way that she would be taking on
    his roles.
    
    I agree with you that most marriages are partnerships, but you must
    take into consideration the constraints that are put into this
    situation.  Apparantly, her partnership in this marriage is to be
    that of caretaker of the child.  If she took the initiative and
    reversed the roles, don't you think the husband would see this as 
    a threat?
    
    
    Mi
    BTW suggesting she changing her religion is not an option.  If it were,
    I doubt she would be in this mess.  She would be free to divorce him
    if she sought to.

I've noticed that some of the noters in this string keep talking about religious
prohibitions to divorce. From my reading of the basenote we don't know that
the injuction against divorce is religious, in fact Steve said that it was
*cultural*. I know that many Americans may not understand how you can have a
cultural prohibition against divorce independent from religion, but basically
the attitude is that it "just isn't done". Further you can't just "change your
culture" it's deeply a part of you, often in ways you are not aware of.

Suggesting a divorce in such circumstances must be done VERY delicately if at
all, and all other alternatives should be explored first. Be very careful about
imposing your own cultural values and mind set on someone from another culture.

	-- Charles

    
    Yes by all means trash the guy when he's outlived his usefulness..
    
    What value does a guy have beyond that of being a utility serving
    money, work, etc., to a woman? Why bother having a relationship
    just because he's a human being? Since when do men count for 
    anything beyond being sources of funds anyway?
                                            

 You're off base, Bob. You don't like the parasitic relationship your wife
has with you, and you have a means of self support. How can you deny someone
else the same feelings, especially when they don't have such means?

 The Doctah