Conference quark::mennotes-v1

.0>  it was interesting to deal with some of the dynamics... one of the cast 
.0>  members took a liking to him.

Honest question...  What do you mean by "took a liking to him"?

.0>  Have any other heterosexual men in the conference put themselves in the
.0>  position of finding out what the gay male community is like, and what
.0>  its like to be a minority in that space?
    
Other than going to a play, How/Why would a heterosexual man want to do this?
Why would an atheist go to church?

I think you have raised some interesting questions...

    I haven't and have no such inclination
    
    A number of the heterosexual men in the conference feel that we find out
    by having it thrust upon us whether we want it or not.
    
    a number of the heterosexual men in the conference feel that we can
    find out everything_we_want_to_about_this (and then some) by requesting
    membership in the LesBiGay conference.

    > Other than going to a play, How/Why would a heterosexual man want to do
    > this? Why would an atheist go to church?

    How?  Well in most urban areas there are large numbers of gay
    organizations (political, social, religious, athletic, artistic, etc...).
    I assume you could pick any topic that interested you and find a group
    to match.

    Here at DEC, you could take Herb's suggestion and join one of the g/l/b
    notesfiles.  I assure you your request to discuss heterosexual issues
    as they relate to homosexual ones would get a much kinder reception
    than what I just read in 694.2.

    As for 'Why?'    Well, why not?

    :-)

    Seriously, that probably has many answers.  Depends on the individual
    I guess.  I don't know about the atheist going to church analogy.  I
    see it more in terms of, say, a white Catholic going to an all black
    Baptist church (if religion was your interest, you could go to a
    Dignity/Integrity/MCC service).  My parents like music, so I invited
    them to see the Boston Gay Men's chorus perform at Symphony Hall last
    year.  They didn't exactly express an interest in spending time in
    "gay space" but I firmly believe loving parents want to share in the
    life of their children.   My folks loved the concert!

    Likewise, I think if you had friends or family who were gay, you might
    want to find out more about the various gay communities to better
    understand and grow closer to that friend or relative.

    What if you don't personally know anyone who is gay?  Well, maybe you
    hear about protests in the news and want to find out what all the fuss
    is about.  Maybe you have an intellectual/sociological interest.  Maybe
    you empathize with the political struggle because, being a minority
    yourself (hypothetically), you've been a victim of bigotry.  Maybe you
    have questions about your own sexuality.  And maybe you are just plain 
    curious.

    I agree, interesting questions....

    /Greg

I went to the Christmas concert of the Boston Gay Men's Chorus one year
when my wife was performing (they had a male alto soloist, but needed a
soprano).  It was the only place I've been where, at intermission, the
line at the men's room was longer than that at the women's!

Ben

    re .1
    
    One of the cast members was very enthusiastic about meeting my friend.
    Shook his hand several times and found several opportunities to talk to
    him. It was amusing to both of us, because it didn't make my friend
    uncomfortable, but we both noticed that we began to act more blatantly
    straight. And felt guilty about it.
    
    As to the other question, I can only explain it for myself. The rumor
    has it that 1/4th of all black males are gay. That's one 1/8th of my
    life, my community, my people. (Rough math, you get the point.) So, I
    either cut them off and ignore them, or I take a step toward
    recognizing their place in our community. I choose the latter. Its
    especially absurd in some ways for a woman to do this; from my
    experience with lesbians, it would seem that I mean even less to them
    than a straight male would. Many women I know who are lesbian do not feel
    any great desire to interact with men, why should these men feel any
    great desire to interact with me! But, it seems very important to me to
    take that first step - instead of closing myself off from a group of
    people - and use it as an opportunity to make friends.
    
    So, why would a heterosexual man do this? I guess for the same reason.
    To keep avenues for friendship open, whereever they may come from.

    a)I don't understand your arithmetic 
    b)are you male or female?
    c)are you black or white?
    d)<be a minority in that space>
      What is a minority in a gay male's space?
      Being a black or an hispanic -say- gay male? or
      Being a straight male?
      Being -say- a black or an hispancic anything in a gay male's space?
      Being a woman, straight or gay in that space?
    e)I know of a black woman with the surname Foster is that you?
    
    				herb

    
    Answers to Herb's questions...
    
    
    a)I don't understand your arithmetic 
         Given a community of half men and half women, if 1/4th of the men
         are gay, then one 1/8th of the community is gay men.
    
    b)are you male or female?
    	I am female.
    
    c)are you black or white?
    	I am Black.
    
    d)<be a minority in that space>
      What is a minority in a gay male's space?
         A minority in gay male space is: a straight male, a lesbian
 	 female, a straight female.  
    
e)I know of a black woman with the surname Foster is that you?
	Yes, I am probably the black woman surnamed Foster that you know.    
    

    <That's one 1/8th of my life, my community, my people.
    
    Now i sort of understand the 1/8, thnx

>    Have any other heterosexual men in the conference put themselves in the
>    position of finding out what the gay male community is like, and what
>    its like to be a minority in that space?

um, not exactly.  But in the course of other activities I came into space
that was mostly populated by gay men.  Specifically I responded to a bbs
posting about joining in with a local group who bought series tickets to
the SF Opera season, carpooled together, ate dinner together before the
performances, etc.  Turned out the group was mostly male, and I soon became
aware that they were mostly gay.  Over the course of three seasons of joint
ticket purchases, hour-long carpools up and back to SF, and dinners, I had
a long association with and developed good friendships with all of them.
Now, this was not an explicitly gay group, so it wasn't quite 'gay male
community space' as perhaps the performance you attended was.  As I saw it,
this group differed in no significant ways from any other group of people 
who share common interests; we spent many hours in each others company, 
often talking about opera, but also discussing the work we did (most had 
met each other as grad students at Stanford), our travel experiences, both
business and pleasure, and other aspects of life common to professionals in
the silicon valley.  That included some discussion of who was seeing whom,
or not, and why or why not, and all seemed quite matter of fact.  To me, 
gay males were people; self-interested, interesting, varied, fun to talk to
and certainly good company.  I guess I never felt like a minority in that
space; it never felt like 'a strate among the gays', it was 'a fellow opera-
lover.'  

DougO

.4> It was the only place I've been where, at intermission, the
.4> line at the men's room was longer than that at the women's!

Good grief ... when was the last time you were at an NFL game,
or a rodeo ... or the local pistol range?

Bubba

    p.s. (Lauren?)
    Were you speaking of _American_ black men?
    
    If it's indeed the case that 25% of American black men are gay and it
    is also the case that roughly 10% of American white men are gay, it
    would be of interest to me to understand the cause of that HUGE
    difference.

    			a_het_white_american_male

    			herb
    
    

    
    Yes, American black men. And since its only a rumor and not a firm
    figure, I cannot verify it OR explain the difference between white
    and black men. Where does the 10% number come from?

    I don't know where the 10% comes from, it just has been sort of lurking
    in the back of my head. (perhaps from reports of the Kinsey report?)
    
    'praps somebody more authoritative should comment.

    Some of my best friends etc.
    
    As to why a het kinda guy would willingly enter into a situation in
    which (irk!) HE WAS A MINORITY:
    
      - Because he has gay friends so he occasionally hangs out where his
    gay friends do.
      - Because he's interested in events which (incidentally) attract a
    sizeable gay population (e.g., art, film, literature, dancing,
    music, football).
      - Because talented gays often end up expressing things about
    themselves in works that are worth looking into. I know it's unfair that 
    good books and plays should be produced about anything other than exact 
    replicas of my own life, but I just grind my powerful jaws and
    muddle through.
      - Because it can be amusing, not to mention informative.
      - Because if you're not looking to get laid what does it matter?
    
    (Same answers apply for hanging out with any other group...)
    
    Ray

    the 10% figure is indeed from Kinsey and has been independantly
    verified by many other researchers over the years. 

    thankyou,
    then I sure would like some verification/refutation of the 25% figure
    for American black men.
    That would be a very,very startling difference, it seems to me.
    
    (there is sort of hovering around in the back of my head the notion that
    homosexuality appears in a rather stable percentage of a population,
    pretty much independent of the population; but again, I can't cite a
    source for that except to (probably) exclude Kinsey)
    

    I really don't want to offend anyone but I am tired of listening to gay
    people talk about their bedroom activities. I ( myself only ) am not
    pushing my sexuality on gay people, but if these constant and trite
    discussions about what gay people do with their sex organ continues I
    will push my heterosexuality in this file.


    	**DON'T YOU GET IT, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR PENIS OR
    VAGINA ( that includes everybody )**. Try keeping who or what you sleep
    with to yourself. If you really must talk about your sex life find a
    sex life notes file and talk until you are blue in the face.


    		HAND
    		Wayne

    Wayne,
    
    What ever makes you think that talking about homosexuality and
    has anything necessarily to do with bedroom activities? Gays and
    lesbians are people with a whole range of problems, interests,
    fears, needs etc that have nothing to do with what they do
    with their genitalia.
    
    Bonnie

    aw cummon Bonnie
    
    you don't REALLY think that's what he meant!
    

    Well, since there was absolutely nothing in this string about
    bedroom behavior, and he replied in this string, yes, that's
    exactly what I thought he meant. 
    
    and I have no intention of trying to educate either of you, on this
    particular issue anyway, it would be kind of like the old addage, no 
    offense meant, of teaching a pig to sing... 'it is a waste of time 
    and only serves to annoy the pig.
    
    Bonnie

    I think she's too smart to waste her time trying, Herb.

    Strangely enough, .17 is a perfect example of why *some* heterosexuals
    might benefit from spending some time with gay people.

    I think i understood what he meant, Bonnie
    
    I think what he meant was
    
    			A W   S H A D D U P
    
    i think you think that's what he meant too

    Strangely enough, .21 is a perfect example of why *some* homosexuals
    might benefit from spending some _more_ time with gay people.

    So why did he have the right to tell a straight woman who had
    been to a play about gay men with a straight man, that she shouldn't
    be able to ask a question of other straight men about how they'd
    react to the same situation.
    
    Seems to me that was a perfectly reasonable question for her to ask
    and if he had a problem with it, he didn't/doesn't have to read
    the note.
    
    I personnally don't much care for people who feel that they have
    to bully other people into shutting up, but that's my problem.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie,

    		Did you call me a pig? I hope not. Now let us get down to
    it.

    		What is the difference between a heterosexual male and a
    homosexual male? Aside from being individuals with different
    backgrounds there is only one, where we put out ding dong. Don't try
    and force feed me that new age dung. I don't care what anyone does in
    their bedroom ( as long as children are not involved ). I just do not
    want to constantly discuss it. I am not asking anyone to value my
    sexual practices. If gay men are truly like everyone else I should not
    be able to tell if I am amongst a group of them, if I can then they are
    not like everyone else.


    			HAND
    			Wayne

    PS.		Also I am not homophobic, gay men and women neither scare
    nor intimidate me. I value people not sexual preferences. 

    So why the hell didn't you ask that question in the first place instead
    of beating about the bush.
    
    
    By the way, he's not the only one who implied that, i did much earlier.
    
    No it is not a perfectly reasonable question to pose in mennotes, as
    anybody with any historical understanding of mennotes (you for instance
    but maybe not the author of .0) could easily affirm.

    And that is a damnfine definition of a terrorist!
    
    Somebody who continues to engage in activity that irks, bothers,
    upsets, etc many members of a community even after being told (or maybe
    _especially_ after being told?) that that activity irks, bothers,
    upsets, etc the same many members of a community.

Re: .26

I disagree.  This is a perfectly reasonable conference in which to post
the question.  That there is a history of a handful of noters who try
to shout down such discussions is irrelevant.

		Steve

    I represent one hellava lot more men on this than you do Steve, and you
    know it!
    
    And you also know that no attempts by you have a snow ball's chance in
    hell of having the kind of impact that you want it to have.
    
    As a matter of fact, I believe my opinions have much more impact (if
    measured by the number of people in agreement) than yours.
    
    I think your conference has failed you Steve

    in re Wayne
    
    No, I didn't call you a pig, I simply used a common adage as to
    the wisdom of undertaking impossible tasks.
    
    Further the fact that you reduce the differences between gay men
    and straight men to only the differences in their bed room behavior
    shows just how little you know about gay men. I don't know much
    more than that, but having been willing to listen to what they
    have to say I have learned that there is much more to the differences
    than the one you focus on.
    
    in re Herb, I'm aware that recently there have been some men in this
    file who have attempted to censor discussion of topics that they
    were not comfortable with. This has not been historically true of
    this file, however, and I hope that it will not be true of the file
    in the future.
    
    Bonnie

    >		What is the difference between a heterosexual male and a
    >homosexual male? Aside from being individuals with different
    >backgrounds there is only one, where we put out ding dong. 
    
    Wayne, YOU are the ONLY person in this string of replies who has had
    the bad taste to talk about bedroom behavior.  
    
    >I don't care what anyone does in their bedroom 
    
    Obviously, you DO care very much, or you wouldn't be telling people to
    shut up who haven't uttered one word about bedroom behavior.  You have
    some real serious hang-up, my friend.
    
    >I just do not want to constantly discuss it. 
    
    Then don't!  Go to some other topic and discuss what you want to 
    discuss.  GEEZ.  Nobody asked you to either read or respond to a note
    in this string.  You chose to.
    
    >I am not asking anyone to value my sexual practices. 
    
    Oh, aren't you?
    
    >If gay men are truly like everyone else I should not
    >be able to tell if I am amongst a group of them, if I can then they are
    >not like everyone else.
    
    You are telling me that if we filled a room with 100 men, 10 of whom
    were gay, that you could pick them out?  Bull!
    
    					- Vick

    <...I don't know much
    <more than that, but having been willing to listen to what they
    <have to say I have learned that there is much more to the differences
    <than the one you focus on.
    
    And you insist on continuing to be a terrorist!
    

    <No, I didn't call you a pig, I simply used a common adage as to
    <the wisdom of undertaking impossible tasks.
    
    Bullshit!
    
    you used it as a way to insult him and me.

Herb, "terrorist" sounds to me like another of your injudicious comments
on other people's moral characters.  Are you looking for another spanking?

DougO

    Wow!
    you sure are effective in making me angry
    But then you knew that, congratulations. 
    
    I defined a terrorist as one who continues to engage in activity
    even (or especially) after knowing that many people want that activity
    to stop. By that definition, i'm sure you would consider me a
    definition, I know i would consider you a definition.
    
    i stated it was a damnfine example
    i then stated that what she was doing was being a definition
    
    that is a self-contained set of information that has nothing to do with
    the outside world
    
    As another famous mathematician once said (:-)
    When I use words they mean whatever I want them to mean.
    

    inre .33 and .34
    
    no, I continue to try and be reasonable, to teach, to try and reach
    people.
    
    and you cannot and do not know how my mind works and what I intended
    by what I wrote.
    
    I almost did not use that particular analogy because I was concerned
    that you or someone else would assume something that I didn't mean
    by it. I specifically said, before I used it that I did not intend
    any offense by using it. Are you calling me a liar Herb?
    
    If you can think of a similar analogy as to the futility of trying
    to teach something to someone who does not want to or is not
    capable of learning it, please let me know what it is, and I will
    use same in the future.  
    
    How about 'my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts' - which
    is the only other one I could think of, and decided was too offensive
    to use.
    
    By the way, I do not use profanity towards you Herb, and I would
    appreciate, as I have asked you before, that you not use profanity
    or scatological expressions towards me.
    
    Bonnie

    in re .35
    
    If I see injustic, prejudice, discimination, and unfairness, I will
    continue to comment on it, no matter how many people tell me to stop.
    I think it would be immoral to do otherwise.
    
    Bonnie

    That you _insist_ on teaching is ANOTHER example of what I have been
    			 ^^^^^^^^
    defining as terrorism.
    
    

    tough, Herb, if you can't tolerate my entering a few facts or
    pleas for tolerance and understanding in this mixed up world
    then I think you own the problem.

    Herb-
    
    Just a question, not a judgement....What is wrong with teaching?
    If its a subject you aren't happy to learn, is it necessary to 
    join that particular string.  I get the impression that you are
    saying the the MENNOTES community does not want to discuss homo/
    heterosexuality, yet I've seen more people in support of said 
    discussions than against.  I don't understand your's and Wayne's
    aversion to such discussion, but I guess that's irrelevant.  I
    just must have missed what all the fuss is about.
    
    CK

    <If you can think of a similar analogy as to the futility of trying
    <to teach something to someone who does not want to or is not
    <capable of learning it, please let me know what it is, and I will
    <use same in the future.  
    
    We don't want you to teach ANYTHING to us. We don't believe you have
    either the credentials or the good will to teach us anything much about
    our feelings about homosexuality. You don't even know what our feelings
    about homosexuality are, and I haven't seen anybody express any
    interest in enlightening you.
    
    For you to manifest the hubris of believing you have some right to
    teach us something is itself tremendously insulting. You may have been
    a pedagogue in another life, but your efforts as a pedant(obs) are
    misdirected -in my opinion.
    
    <By the way, I do not use profanity towards you Herb, and I would
    <appreciate, as I have asked you before, that you not use profanity
    <or scatological expressions towards me.
    
    I use it very seldom, it is a very effective way of communicating how I
    feel. 
    
    I believe that it's use as punctuation was eloquent. I regret that
    you are not able to see its effectiveness.
    I will try to restrain myself in the future if the occasion arises.

Herb, thank you for the compliment on my effectiveness.  You are presupposing
that my motive is to make you angry, which is not untrue but certainly it is
incomplete as a statement of my goals.  However, I will accept the compliment
as you offered it.

You claim that in teaching, Bonnie shows hubris?  If your revisionist history
of mennotes, offered as an attempt to stifle yet another interesting discussion
wasn't hubris then yet again you demonstrate you don't know the meanings of the
accusations you cast so freely.  As Steve noted, our history does include some
attempts to shout down some issues, as you are doing here.

I don't believe your claim to speak for the legions of mennotes readers, Herb.
You represent no one but yourself.  I'll defer your spanking to another topic,
if it proves necessary.  This topic should continue with the discussion and the
contributions of heterosexual men who have experienced gay male community space.

DougO 

.40> tough, Herb, if you can't tolerate my entering a few facts or
.40> pleas for tolerance and understanding in this mixed up world
.40> then I think you own the problem.

Das is korrect, Herr Nichols.  You are zee problem and you vill be
sent to the re-edukation kamp should you not listen.

:-)
Hauptmann Bubba

    I see the PC men thrashers are out in full force. 

    	Vick,

    		By taking my words out of context and your innuendo of what
    I meant, you have shown your bias and ignorance. Some of you are so
    adamant about shoving your pet beliefs down our throats that you have
    taken away the middle ground for compromise. Do you really want
    confrontational noting. 

       Others,
    		I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GAY PEOPLE. I DO HAVE A
    PROBLEM WITH CONSTANT DISCUSSION OF THE GAY LIFESTYLE. THERE IS A
    SEPARATE NOTESFILE FOR THAT. IF I WERE INTERESTED IN IT I WOULD APPLY TO
    THAT NOTESFILE. I HAVE NOT NOR WILL I APPLY.

    		I will continue to value people on an individual basis, if
    they are gay and do not push it on me we can be friends, otherwise I don't
    have time. I know for people like Bonnie it is hard to understand that
    some of us can't embrace GROUPS of people we don't know simply because
    it is politically correct. If certain groups want compassion and
    understanding they have get it the old fashioned way, one person at a
    time.


    			HAND
    			Wayne     
                                   

<This topic should> nt <continue with the discussion and the>
<contributions of heterosexual men who have experienced gay male community
space.>

DayO, Daaaaayyyyo, Daaaaayyyyo

    
*    Have any other heterosexual men in the conference put themselves in the
*    position of finding out what the gay male community is like, and what
*    its like to be a minority in that space?
 
    		No. I don't care to find out what it is like, not my bag.
       
*    Has anyone else seen the play, or other plays about being a gay male?
 
    
    		No. Not my bag. 
    
    
    Hows that Bonnie and others. By the way can I now go to womannotes and
    teach them and show them how their beliefs are just totally incorrect.
    If you can I can, don't cha think.
    
    
    			HAND
    			Wayne    
    Can we discuss? 
    

    you've gut one hellava nerve buddy thinking that just because our 
    opinions are not welcome in =wn=, that you have any right to express them
    somewhere else!

    sigh

    hope you feel better now

> DayO, Daaaaayyyyo, Daaaaayyyyo
    
    Herb, I didn't know you were a Kinks fan!
    
    Now the '70s Kinks concerts, those were GREAT places to find out about
    gay (not to mention alcoholic) community space...
    
    Ray

    Harry Belafonte 1962 Loews State Theater Massachusetts Avenue, Boston 
    
    

    re. 29
    
   > As a matter of fact, I believe my opinions have much more impact (if
   > measured by the number of people in agreement) than yours.
   >
    
    That's a big assumption ... you never know how to judge the silent
     I agree with Steve and have chose to not enter what appears to be
    people talking at each other rather than with each other.
    
    Yours in Silence,
    Greg
    

    Let me share a little more...
    
    With one exception which, at Wayne's request, I won't share here, we
    mainly saw a play that was built on male camaraderie, affection and
    love for each other. The thing that made the play for ME was that it
    dealt with the special problem of being black in a predominantly white
    community, ON TOP OF being gay. Kinda like the out-casts of the
    out-casts.
    
    The person I took is about as straight as straight gets, and believe
    me, I know. But what struck us about the play is that it touched common
    chords for us. We could see that some aspects of these men's lives were
    different from ours, but we could also see MANY similarities. There was
    so much warmth and humor. What was being communicated was universal.
    
    We came away trying to think of people who wouldn't be so hung up in
    the fact that the production was about being gay to see the message
    about being black. We tried to think of people who would laugh and cry
    and cheer the way we did. People who would be touched. The list was,
    unfortunately, rather short.
    
    Instead, we came up with all the people who would freak out just
    because of the differences. People who would bolt and run before they'd
    have a chance to see the message. As if being gay is contagious.
    
    Someone who read my basenote contacted my friend for a direct quote. In
    his opinion, everything was cool. No one attacked him, tried to convert
    him, made him uncomfortable. The irony was that he was welcomed far
    more heartily than I was. But in some ways I expected it - although its
    a bit disheartening to find yourself among a group of men who find your
    male escort more attractive than they find you. A bit of an ego
    deflater. But tolerable.
    
    The best thing for me was knowing that we both got a chance to examine
    how we really felt about being around gay black men, instead just
    guessing. For me, there's some discomfort in being ignored. For him,
    there was the fun of being paid attention to. For both of us, there was
    incredible acceptance. No one made us feel guilty for being straight.
    People talked to us, interacted with us. They were themselves, we were
    ourselves, and we made friends and had a good time.
    
    I guess I was looking to find out if other people had been along this
    path. I'm really saddened to see that Wayne and Herb wish that I hadn't
    posted this here. But I don't have access to any gay conferences. This
    seemed like a logical place. Gay men ARE men, aren't they?

    <you never know how to judge the silent>

    absolutely

    <that's a big assumption>

    you betcha
    
    <yours in silence>
    
    good

    Well at least now we know where you are really coming from, Wayne.
    
    You simply hold "groups" of people in contempt until they 
    individually earn your respect and compassion.  How generous of you.
    
    Myself, I tend to show everyone a measure of respect and compassion
    until such a time as they demonstrate they are not worthy of that
    kind of treatment.
    
    /Greg
    

  > one of the cast members took a  liking to him.

   >Have any other heterosexual men in the conference put themselves in the
   >position of finding out what the gay male community is like, and what
   >its like to be a minority in that space?

Can't say that I have, nor have I really thought about doing so.  I have 
wonder how I would react if a gale male 'took a liking' to me.  I hope that
I would react as your friend did, i.e. simply let him know that I was not
interested; the same as I would if he were a female in which I were not
interested. 

I admit extreme homophobia in my past.  I hope that now I am less so.

Hamp

    <...find out what the gay community is like>
    
    well, i'll betcha -if i wanted- i'd find it's not much like the
    caricature portrayed by some of its self-styled spokespeople here.

    re:  .46  
    
    out of context????  I quoted your whole reply.  How can you say I
    took anything out of context?  Geez, looeez!
    
    					- Vick

    If you wanted you could find just about anything, Herb.

    Cheep, anonymous sex.  Extreme narcissism,  Phobias of all
    sorts.  Alcoholism.  Disease.  Dependency.  Abuse.  You
    name it.  It's all there in the various gay communities.

    Just like it is all there in the various straight communities.

    Thankfully, there is love, hope, beauty, art, compassion, commitment
    and truth in all communities as well.

    Which do you prefer to focus on?

    /Greg

    	P.S. if you hate these topics so much, what do you continually
    	     (one might even say 'obsessively') participate in them?

    If I have caused the base noter any discomfort, I am sorry. It is just
    that anytime a discussion is started in this conference two themes seem
    to always surface. The two are, gay agenda and women agenda
    sensitivities. I as well as others are just plain tired of of talking
    about these two groups. Gay or women issues do not need to be
    constantly discussed in MENNOTES. If I want to discuss gay issues I
    will go to the gay notesfile. If the purpose of this notesfile is to
    educate straight males about the gay life let's close it down now.
    Since there is a gay notesfile I propose we make this a straight
    notesfile.


    		HAND
    		Wayne

    RE. .58

    		Half full, half empty.



    		HAND
    		Wayne

.63> If I want to discuss gay issues I will go to the gay notesfile.

For anyone interested (shamelessly extracted from EASYNOTES.LIS):

Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Employees  Contact RANGER::LLEE for membership.

.63> Since there is a gay notesfile I propose we make this a
.63> straight notesfile.

I said this once and ended up by deleting the note because I didn't
have time to read all the hate mail ... prepare ye for INCOMING.

Bubba

    > I as well as others are just plain tired of of talking
    > about these two groups.
    
    	Then stop talking about them and talk about something else.
    
    /Greg

    Wayne,
    
    I'm sorta new to this notes thing, but just the other day I found that
    if I pressed the comma key on the numeric keypad, I was taken away from
    that particular topic.  You should try it sometime if you find the
    topic is something you do not wish to read (or learn) about.
    
    

I will return to the author any more entries which, in my opinion, are
intended to disrupt discussion of the topic.

				Steve

    RE .67
		Actually  I know some people I would call friends ( not real
    close ) but friends for over 15 years. We don't see each other much but we
    still share an awful lot of interests. They are so different than majority
    of gay people I have come in contact with at DEC it is amazing.  I don't 
    factor consenting sex in as to whether a person is normal (IMHO). Sex is 
    fun, but I believe it should be private. 

    		You have made a mistake in the assumption that I am ignorant
    about gay people, I am not. I would most likely be correct in saying I
    know more about various lifestyles than 90% of the people here. That is
    why I value individuals not groups of who knows what.


    			HAND
    			Wayne



				Wayne

.69> ...so different than majority of gay people I have come
.69> in contact with at DEC it is amazing.

*That* is the understatement of the year.

Bubba

    Ya, we DEC gays are just so loud-mouthed and uppity.
    
    The nerve!
    
    We really need to learn our place (bound and gagged in the closet).
    
    

.69> ...so different than majority of gay people I have come
.69> in contact with at DEC it is amazing.

If this is your (or anyones elses) observation, can you give
an explaination as to why that is?  I mean, what makes 'DEC gays' different
from 'Non-DEC gays'?

Curious,

Hamp

    I have met people who happen to be gay and I have met gay's who happen
    to be people. Guess which category a lot of gay's in DEC fall in, your
    choice.


    	I have met some terrific people in DEC who happen to be gay. You
    would not know they were gay unless they were:

    			1. comfortable with you
    			2. the subject came up
    			3. or there was a reason for you to know

     	I don't discuss my sex life with people normally for the same three
    reasons.
                                


    			HAND
    			Wayne

    Wayne,

    >  I don't discuss my sex life with people normally for the same three
    >  reasons.

    Well I don't discuss my sex life either.

    Saying "I am gay" is not discussing my sex life.  I don't even
    go around *saying* "I am gay" - but even if I did, it would not
    convey any more information about my sex life than *YOU* complaining
    about marriage (to a woman) does.  Do you understand that?

    ....

    FWIW....  there is a reason - a legitimate reason - for gay people to
    make themselves known.

    In case you hadn't noticed, gay people *do* suffer from discrimination 
    and bigotry.  I know a lot of people are tired of hearing about this.  
    Well I think they'd be a lot more tired if they had to live with it every 
    day.   Raising the topic of sexual orientation is a way to break down 
    stereotypes and "de-sensitize" the issue - so we don't have to have 
    conversations like this one every time the word "gay" is mentioned.  
    .0 raised a simple question and look at the result.  Did she talk about
    sex?  No, she didn't.  You were the person who first mentioned it.

    Just out of curiosity....

    > I have met some terrific people in DEC who happen to be gay.

    How would you respond to these people if they started talking about
    a play that happened to have a gay theme?  How would you respond if
    one of them told you they had been thrown out of their apartment
    *because* they "happen to be gay?"  Would you tell them to shut up
    because you don't want to hear about their sex life?

    /Greg

     P.S.  Are any of the terrific people you know who happen
    	   to be gay, stereotypically gay (i.e. effeminate)?
    	   What do you suggest for a man who, through no "fault"
    	   of his own, fits just about every gay stereotype in 
    	   the book?  How does he prevent people from knowing
    	   he is gay unless one of your three conditions come up?

    O.K. folks, what does this have anything to do with the base note? I
    thought we were to discuss the base note here, not tangent stuff. Yes,
    we know that gays suffer, so do women, so do men. So the entire world
    has a cross to bare. Some of it is our own doing, some of it isn't. Who
    cares, lets go on with learning something here.

    re: .76
    First they force the train off the tracks, then they blame it on the
    train.
    
    
    A large percentage of the topics in this conference and in the =wn=
    have to do with people's suffering.  George, you yourself are forever
    bemoaning your own suffering at the hands of the divorce courts (or
    do I have the wrong guy?).  You say "who cares".  Well, I care, and a
    lot of other people here care.  I care about Greg's suffering and I
    care about your suffering.  I admit the replies have gotten off the
    topic, but if the derailers are to be allowed to grandstand, then the
    derailees should be allowed to respond.  
    
    						- Vick

.75> FWIW....  there is a reason - a legitimate reason - for gay people to
.75> make themselves known.

You certainly don't have to answer this if you don't want to but it is
a matter of curiosity to me.  Do you want to be known as "Greg Schuler"
who is a respected member of the staff of Digital Equipment Corporation,
a person who is an asset to his community, a person who is a great
conversationalist, a person who is proud to be a part of this experiment
called democracy, and, just happens to be gay.... or ... do you want to
be know as "gay Greg Schuler" who is a respected member of the staff of
Digital Equipment Corporation, a person who is an asset to his community,
a person who is a great conversationalist, a person who is proud to be a
part of this experiment called democracy ...?

I don't mean to invade anyone's privacy so PLEASE do not answer this
question if you do not want to answer it.  If you so desire, I'll delete
this in a heartbeat.

There's one Hell of a lot of things that I want people to know about me
other than (and besides) my particular proclivity for any individual.
Your mileage may vary.
    
Bubba

    George,

    		You are quite right. I apologize for being part of the
    problem.

    	Greg,

    		You have asked some question that need answering by me. I
    am not fluent enough to do that with the printed word. If you really
    want my answers you are welcome to call me. My DTN is listed in ELF.



    		HAND
    		Wayne

    PS. Back to the discussion.

    Vick,
    
    	I had a note removed. No problem. It was not in contents of this
    discussion. So, lets get back to the discussion and lets stop going
    down a rat hole in fighting. Or is that the primary issue here, to
    fight? If so, sorry. I thought it was to discuss the base topic. I am
    not shure of what your intentions are. Perhaps its to invoke a notes
    fight? Sorry bub, wrong man.

    Sorry Greg, I was not intentionally getting on your case or Waynes. If
    our fearless leader wants us to discuss this topic, the buy the Gods,
    lets stop and start.
    
    Herr Rauh

    RE: .78  (how I want to be known)

    Jerry, it doesn't matter to me either way.  It isn't the most or
    least important thing about me.   Anyone whom I'd value would
    place such knowledge in its proper perspective anyway.

    The assumption is always "straight" so if just one more person
    is known not to be, that's fine by me.

    I've made it known in NOTES for political reasons (as if that isn't
    obvious).

    /Greg

    RE: Wayne - perhaps I will give you a call...
    
    I asked the questions, not expecting a serious answer but more
    to generate thought.
    
    I am curious how you would respond though....
    
    RE: George - no offense taken.
    
    /Greg

    .77
    Vick,
    
    	Yup, right agian. But if the rat hole gets any larger, then the
    base note doesn't get discussed. Hence, like many other discussions,
    its a discussion of the size of the rat hole vs the base note.
    So...... Let the games begin.....
    
    

> ================================================================================
> Note 694.57     "Fierce Love" and other accounts of gay male life       57 of 72
> VMSSG::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green"           11 lines  10-DEC-1991 15:51
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>    <you never know how to judge the silent>
>
>    absolutely
>
>    <that's a big assumption>
>
>    you betcha
> 
>    <yours in silence> ... (from my sign-off in reply .55)
>    
>    good
>

Hmm, from my view 2 out of 3 ain't bad ... but the third requires my speaking
up ... I can't resist such a warm welcome for possibly differing viewpoints. 

I'm not going to enter the "discussion" about the appropriateness of the base
note.  I'll just answer the original question.                    

I have been a straight male in a minority position in three environments (that
I know of).
  *  I lived near SF for about a year and spent a lot of time in the city.
  *  I live right next to Boston and Emmy and I often head to the South End of
     Boston (a neighborhood with a relatively high gay population) for
     dining and theater.             
  *  I have done some volunteer work for an Aids Support Group.

Someone earlier (I think the other Greg) mentioned the overriding experience ..
they are communities like any other ... there are nice people and mean people
... conservative and liberal ... there are safe areas and dangerous areas ..etc.

There is one learning that stands out from my single days in SF.  I often went
to the city alone or with male friends and we were often approached by gay men
trying to start conversations.  This was an interesting experience for me
because it helped me realize how I behaved in the "straight" world.


In the "straight world" ...

initial interactions with women often involve a bit of care while the ground
rules were set ... are you just being friendly, are you interested, are you
unattached, etc ... because of the possibility of an interest exists. 
 
initial interactions with men are totally unguarded ... you just jump into
conversations without any thought to what in might mean.


In SF ...

initial interactions with both women and men took on attributes of the
interactions with women in the "straight world" ... a little care was always
needed to be sure everyone knew what was up.


I found this interesting ... I had never realized the difference in my initial
behavior in the straight world until I was aware of continually meeting gay
men and adjusting my behavior.  So for me spending time as a minority in "gay
environments" has helped me understand both myself and "straight environments"
better.
                                
Take care,
Greg
                                                         
                                                    
    

    re .-1
    
    <...>
    
    good

> In the "straight world" ...
> 
> initial interactions with women often involve a bit of care while the ground
> rules were set ... are you just being friendly, are you interested, are you
> unattached, etc ... because of the possibility of an interest exists. 
>  
> initial interactions with men are totally unguarded ... you just jump into
> conversations without any thought to what in might mean.
    
    .85 -- To me, the lessons took the other way.  I didn't learn to take
    care with men; instead I learned to not take care with women...  The
    fact that I'm talking to someone of the opposite (or the same) sex
    doesn't mean (to me) that we're going to bed together.  Sexual interest
    is a spice, not the nutrition.
    
    I admit that my approach involves its own risks and that, if I was a
    woman, I'd probably have some horror stories to tell. Let's just say
    I'm more comfortable with that approach than with the alternative. If
    nothing else, it avoids the difficulties of having put on an act
    once/if a sexual relationship develops.
    
    Ray

    re. 87 

    I essentially agree ... I like my interactions with people to be as
    open and unguarded as possible.  However, I believe a little care is
    often helpful and considerate.

    For example, if I meet a women and I feel "she's interested" vibes I
    might try to mention Emmy (my wife) in the conversation to let this
    women know I'm attached.  (Conversely, I believe women sometimes let me
    know they are attached when I have unintentionally given off "he's
    interested" vibes.) I believe this is a considerate thing to do but
    something that requires a little care when I first meet women.
                             
    In the "straight world" I have never felt the need for the same
    consideration with men.  In SF I did feel it was considerate with both
    men and women to be a little careful and let the person know what was
    up if it seemed like the considerate thing to do.

    The bigger point is not so much how I deal with men and women but
    that spending time in an environment with a relatively large gay
    population helped me learn about myself and my actions all environments.

    Take care,
    Greg