Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Gee, if you prepare for a battle, you will probably get one.  Thank goodness
not all divorces are this antagonistic!  (Though, sadly, many are.)  Protect
your interests, sure, with help from your lawyer.  But if you can avoid
a trial and work out a mutually satisfactory agreement, everyone will be
better off.  (I did say "if"...)

			Steve

    I would advocate that you try and get your spouse
    and yourself into divorce mediation. Lawyer only
    complicate situations. In order for your children
    to survive a divorce and prosper, the two parents
    need to comunicate. Mediation helps start that process.

    RE: .1  Steve... That was one of the tips!
    
    ;- }

This may require a note of it's own, but I will leave that up to the
    moderators.  My wife and I have decided on an "amicable" separation
    which more than likely will end up as a divorce. By amicable we
    want to avoid all of the finger pointing, yelling, fighting stuff
    that normally happens and limit the disruption that usually develops.
    
    My question is...Is this possible.  Does anyone have experience
    with such an arrangement that they are willing to share?  We live
    in New Hampshire. Should I be consulting an attorney now or should
    we try to work things out (property,kids etc) ourselves.  Material
    things are not all that important to me, (right now) but I also
    don't want to get taken to the cleaners.
    
    
    I would appreciate any tips, comments, advice, etc that any of you
    have to offer.
    
    Also, is there such a thing as a no/low charge attorney consultation
    in New Hampshire?
    
    
    
    Thanks
    Jim Henderson   MARCIE::JHENDERSON
    
    
    

    12 years ago,..in VT there was a 1 year legal separation without
    cohabitation between the couple, before a divorce court appointment was
    set up. After 12 months, if both still have not agreed to live
    together, then the lawyer schedules an appointment for a court hearing for
    both.  It would take another 3 to 6 months to wait.
    
    It gave the couple a chance to decide whether or not they really want
    to go through with it.  Sometimes it's a relief when it's over with.
    But, when you have children, sometimes it's not.  There may be more
    court battles between you and your "ex-wife" over custody of the
    children.  This could drag on and on for years. 
    
    But, the children, boy....can't you imagine how it rips them apart
    emotionally if the divorce goes through?   
    
    Sometimes all you need is a week vacation from each others...Have
    you tried that?
    
    I went through a divorce once... We had no kids.  I thank the Lord
    for that.  But, that was years ago.  The marriage lasted only 5
    months.   I married another woman 4 years later.  We're still together
    and raise 2 girls. Sometimes it's rough, but we've been married 8 years
    and for the sake of our children we wouldn't even think of divorce. 
    
    I won't go any further than this... I would encourage you to try
    to work something out....for as long as you can.... My prayers are
    with you.... 
                                                  John
                                                       

    
    I think its mighty sad that grown, supposedly mature, adults have
    to go to a court of law to be told how to treat each other
    fairly.
    

    Rather than use an attorney (who has to represent *one* side, so you
probably need two), you may want to consider a divorce mediator (see under
"Mediators" in the phone book). Mediators are basically for when you've "agreed
to agree", but aren't sure what's fair. A mediator will be considerably cheaper
than a pair of attorneys; they can't handle the actual divorce, but should be
able to help you go through the process of deciding what goes where.

    It's hard, even without children -- my best to you both.

    
    Well, from the woman's side - my ex and I worked out an amicable
    arrangement 9.5 years ago.  We live in Mass, and started with one
    attorney representing both of us.  Things that helped:
    
    -  We both wanted it to be amicable, equitable, and fair.
    -  We both put the child's needs FIRST.
    -  I never requested any money on an ongoing basis for myself, simply
       a reasonably fair division of assets.  (He got the new car, I
       got the old car and old motor home.  Split the savings account
       50/50.  I got the house, 'cause my investment had been the down
       payment, we split the capital gains.)
    -  We both consciously decided that placement of blame for the split
       was inappropriate.  Neither of us ever said anything negative
       about the other, especially to the kid.
    
    It took us 3 years to reach a point where we had a mutually agreeable
    custody settlement for the kid.  From day 1 with the lawyer, we
    lived with and abided by the agreement that we worked out as if
    it were final.  The lawyer was helpful for covering contingencies
    we hadn't thought of (vacations, holidays, post-high school education,
    etc.).  Because of the thought and effort, the past years of parenting
    as separate but equally interested people has been accomplished
    with minimal distress.  It isn't easy, but with goodwill it can
    be done.
    
    Good luck to you.
    
    			Alison
    

    Re .5  We have tried the separate vacations, together vacations
    and all of that stuff. It sounds cliche but we have grown apart.
    I am deeply concerned about the kids as is she, and we both want
    the best for them, but we can't continue living together as we are
    now.  We have gone through much counseling (which I advise any one
    to do. I have learned a great deal about myself and relationships
    as a result) and this is where we wound up.
    
    re.8 Thank you for your input. We both are hoping/striving for similar
    results.
    
    
    Jim

    
    N.O.W  has a package for getting a no frills divorce.
    I called and asked for it 6 years ago followed the instructions
    step by step.  I have full custody of my son and am divorced
    with no complications, except my son misses his Mom.
    
    Thew custody part was not contained in the literature and
    the package encouraged using a lawyer for custody cases.
    
    cbc

    i filed for divorce (for the umpteenth time) early this year.  it
    was final in sept.  
    
    my ex and i "agreed" to an amicable divorce...she wanted to be
    "friends" (ostensibly for the children's sake)....problem with that
    is, for her "friends" means not letting go...for me, it means being
    civil.
    
    recently i started dating.  my ex learned of this (i'd informed
    my kids, because i wanted them to meet my new friend...and i refuse
    to hide it...but, i didn't want to flaunt it and hert my ex).  to
    make a long story short...my ex now is threatening to prevent me
    from seeing my little kids, in the presence of my girl-friend, and
    because our "joint-conservator" clause in the decree states that
    in any conflict that the ex and i have over visitation, HER will
    prevails, and she abruptly reminded me of that, i am now considering
    going back to court (or trying to) to get specific dates/times inserted
    for visiting the kids or having them visit me/us.
    
    so much for amicable divorces.  so much for joint conservatorship.
    
    tony
             

    
    If it is at ALL possible to end a marriage vise a vis divorse in
    an amicable [sic], mutual, kids come first way then by all means
    work hard toward that end.  I a few relationships [ and I beleive
    it is just a few] both parties are willing and capable of being
    fair and understanding.  BRAVO to those who can!
    
    But I think there is a vast majority of couples who can't from the
    start.  Don't care to be fair, or attempt to and it just fails.
    Regardless of the reasons once it gets into the hands of two lawyers,
    and the court system, whatever state you live in, then throw out
    the word FAIR.  It does'nt exist.  And the person who will ultimately
    get the short end of the proverbial stick 9 times out of ten will
    be the man when there are children involved.
    
    I think it would be naive to assume otherwise.  This base note was
    intended to take a little of that percieved naivety we all have
    that says "Things should be fair and equal" into the real world
    of divorse.
    
    I know that I was incredibly naive 10 years ago when I divorsed
    and would have welcomed any help I could get.  I just didn't know
    how or who to ask.  And I made three BIG mistakes.  I trusted my ex-wife
    would be fair with me.  I trusted my lawyer.  I believed the courts
    would treat our divorse in a equal/unbias manner since it had taken
    18 months of painfull negotiations to get there.
    
    I found out much too late that this was more the norm than the
    exception.
    
    Bill   

    ME AND MY EX WORKED OUT THE DIVORCE OURSELVES INCLUDING CUSTODY
    AND THEN TOOK IT TO OUR LAWYERS. MY EX HAD SOME TROUBLE WITH HER
    LAWYER ON THE TERMS BUT MY EX FINALLY STREIGHTENED HER LAWYER OUT 
    AND THE JUDGE RUBBER STAMPED IT AND THAT WAS ALL. THAT WAS 4 YEARS AGO
    IN COLORADO.             
    

    I agree with .13, if youi and your ex to be can work out some kind
    of agreement on paper before seeing a lawyer it will make things
    much easier.  I had a 7 page agreement that we both worked on which
    included visitation child support and everything else we could think
    of.  We only had to meet with the lawyers once to make minor changes.
    The agreement was signed and has been filed in court.  Waiting for
    that Date.  The bottom line is BE PREPARED before you see the lawyer,
    you will save mega bucks and time and BAD feelings.
    
    
    Steve-who-has-just-filed-and-not-looking-forward-to-going-to-court
    

Note that you don't really HAVE to go to court, at least in New Hampshire,
if the divorce is uncontested.  Yes, one of you must show up and talk
privately to the judge, but it isn't a big courtroom scene.  Your lawyer
will advise you about that.  It is FAR less expensive this way.

				Steve

    YOU DONT HAVE TO GO TO COURT IN COLO EITHER. MY EX SHOWED UP TO
    TALK WITH THE JUDGE. I STAYED HOME AND MY LAWYER CALLED UP LATER
    AND SAID IT WAS ALL OVER. 

    I am presently in process of divorce in NH without a lawyer.  It is
    generally going well, in fact went to court last week and a problem
    developed.  I'm hoping someone in this conference will have the answer.
    
    NOTE: I am not looking for legal advise, but knowledge based on other's
    experience.
    
    There is a form for financial data that includes a section on pension
    plans, requesting information on vesting and value of the plan.  The
    vesting piece I can understand.  The value piece is another story. 
    Personnel people tell me to put "current value $0". Is that correct?
    
    I would appreciate any information someone could provide.
    
    
    
    Jim
    

I believe that the "current value" of your pension is shown on the annual
statement of benefits that DEC sends you.  You can also request this
figure to be sent to you from Corporate Personnel.  They won't give it to
you on the phone.

			Steve

    Jim,
    
    I just went through a divorce in Mass., I had the same question asked
    of me about the value of the pension.  I called Personnel and Legal and
    they wrote a letter stating that there isn't any value for your pension
    until you draw on it at whatever age you retire.  
    
    I suggest you call Personnel and there is a person the Corp. that
    handles this for the company.
    
    Good luck, believe me this is the first time I ever got Sc**wed without
    even a smile and I had a lawyer, infact I just got the bill yesterday.
    
    dave

    Steve and Dave, thanks for the advise.  I called Corporate Compensation
    and Benefits and they do have an official document of some sort for 
    this purpose and will be sending it out to me.
    
    
    Fortunately I don't feel like I'm getting screwed in my divorce.  We
    have been able to work out all of the arrangements and
    financial/community property stuff ourselves.  Between the 2 of us we
    have spent $150 for lawyers, with my $75 going for the hour I spent
    with a lawyer getting briefed on what I need to know/do.
    
    Its a shame they can't all be this easy.
    
    
    Jim

    I dont mean to rain on anyones parade but.....I will..:-)
    
    If this is going so dang easy...why is the question of your PENSION
    plan, YOUR PENSION, not hers, YOURS, coming into the picture?
    
    I mean, only someone that is really trying to get her "networth" outah
    a sour mariage goes that route...at least I though so from what i have
    seen.
    
    No need to answer if youd like, I understand, and maybe someone else
    will answer for you.
    
    Al

    Al, you've managed to touch one of my hot buttons.  Maybe I was
    trying to get my "networth outah a sour mariage (sic)" - whatever
    that means - but at the time of my divorce 9 years ago I'd been
    a full-time homemaker and mother and had no pension, nothing, nada.
    He, on the other hand, because I'd been home full time, had 15 years
    vested in his career AND his pension.
    
    Nine years later I still have no pension (been spending the time
    building a career and moving from one place to another to do it),
    AND I didn't - and won't - get a dime from his.
    
    Now look me straight in the eye and tell me that's fair!
    Karen
         

A pension is considered a financial resource, to be thrown into the pool with
all other resources in determining an equitable settlement.  The same goes for
cash-value life insurance policies.

			Steve

    Steve explains it.  The form I had to fill out regarding income and
    liabilities included a section on pensions.  IF we were haggling and
    unable to reach a mutually satisfactory settlement the pension info
    could be used by the judge to determine my continuing financial
    obligation.  The final stipulation that we file will contain the
    statement that my wife makes no financial claim on my pension, as 
    well as her financial obligation to me regarding the house, the
    ownership of which she will assume.  I agreed to the house arrangement
    because the kids will live with her and I could not expect them to be
    tossed out in the street.
    
    
    Jim

    RE: .22, unless you put him through school or other similiar ed-
    ucational activities, I really don't feel that you have the right to
    any part of his pension unless you live in a communal property state.
    And even there, I feel its wrong. Why should a divorced individual
    effectively pay FOREVER?! The current tangible assets are divided up
    and child support is judged, but that should be it!!!
    
    Without sounding rash, while you were home, who was paying the
    mortgage, putting food on the table, paying for clothes, cars, etc?
    This is not to say that you did not contribute anything, only that so
    did he, eith each of your contributions done in a different way. What
    I'm saying is that each of you gave and received in the relationship.
    Part of what he earned is his pension, which should remain his,and his
    alone!!
    
    Eric   

    re .25
    
    Eric, I'm going through the divorce process and I find your view point
    a bit on the narrow side. One of the reasons you are able to earn that
    big pension is that someone stayed home to do the kids or do the house
    or manage the repair people or a thousand other things. You did not
    have to take time out to deal with them. You dont have a little mental
    alarm clock set for leaving "just a tad early" to pick up the kid(s).
    
    The pension is a joint asset. I'm keeping my pension.... but an
    estimated value for it was thrown into the pot that was to be divided.
    It's only fair. She helped create the pot directly or indirectly.
    
    Dj

    Perhaps in some cases that may be true, but you also put a roof over
    her head, fed the family, etc. The work your ex did (does) for the
    family was not entirely without reimbursement.
    
    I've seen many times figures of what a "mother and housewife" is worth,
    but rarely have I seen what her living costs would be (i.e. room and
    board), which would somewhat balance the picture.
    
    Both my wife and I work, though the salary is skewed in my favor.
    Because of our hours, she makes breakfast and sees our kid off. I pick
    him up and make dinner. On weekends when she works, I do the laundry
    and cleaning. In this circumstance, I feel that she is definitely NOT
    entitled to any of my pension. Such assets as the house, furniture,
    cars, etc could be considered dividable, but my pension isn't one of
    them. This should be especially true when there are no children
    involved. In this case (and subject to the limitations in my prev
    reply), the only things that should go to the spouses are what they
    brought in at the begining and a division of what was gotten while they
    were together, PERIOD!
    
    Eric

Re: .28

Eric, I also disagree with you.  But such are the things that lawyers
are paid lots of money to fight over.

I consider pension a deferred salary.  As it happened, in my divorce it
did not matter as my wife's vesting in her pension exceeded mine (marginally),
so we did not worry about it.  But in a more "traditional" marriage (which,
nowadays, is actually quite rare) where the wife does not have a paying
job, I feel that she is entitled to consider her husband's vestment in his
pension a part of the joint family assets.

Consider a couple where the husband decides to dump his wife, who has been
"staying home with the kids" for years, just before he is about to retire.
If they had stayed married, the pension income would have supported the family.
It's not fair that the wife should lose that support.

I'm not saying that in all cases one just hands over the rights to the
pension, but it IS an asset and should be factored into the calculations.


				Steve

            I am in the process of getting divorced (1 year and many $$)
       and this "pension = marital asset" stuff is a hot button for me
       also. It should not be automatic, it should depend entirely on
       the circumstances.

            I can agree that, if a man is married for the same length of
       time as his career (25-30 years) and 2 years before retirement he
       gets divorced (maybe she dumps him) from his "stayed home and
       raised the kids" wife, then the court should consider his
       pension in terms of paying alimony or some similar arrangement.

            But to hand out a lump sum payment on "maybe" money is
       definitely unfair.

            The fact that the legal system would consider it in my case
       makes me crazy.  I've been in Digital for 6 years, and married
       for 15 years.  That means I have to keep from being re-organized
       out of Digital or fired, for longer than I've been married in
       order to collect anything.  Second, the system bases the value of
       my pension on the Bureau of Labor Statistics info that says the
       American male lives to 70 something.  Creating the formula
       ($N per year) x (7?-65 years) = pension value.   I'm complaining
       because that same BLS book says that Black males (like myself)
       born before 1950 have a life expectancy of 59 !  That means I will
       probably collect $0, something the legal system wants to ignore.

            In my case, what the system is actually doing if it lumps my
       pension value in with the house, stocks, and bank accounts is;
       giving her a larger portion of the real up front money, and making
       me wait 20 something years for "maybe" money.

            I think that in most cases, you look at the real money (that
       means if you can cash it in or sell it NOW).  Take the current
       total value, split that in half and be done.

       Richard

    RE a few back...
    
    Your vested value in the retirement plan may not have any PRESENT
    value, but it certainly is a negotiable entity.
    
    I am 100% vested in another company as well as in DEC.  My ex-wife
    would have been entitled to 1/2 of the value of those pensions upon my
    retirement and eligibility to receive them.  Of course she would have
    also been entitled to 1/2 of all IRAs, 401Ks, etc. as well.
    
    So, in order to "completely" separate all ties to her, I negotiated
    something of "mine" for her half of those "future encumberances".  I
    swapped my half of the equity in two houses (worth many thou) for her
    half of those "retirement benefits".  It's all in the divorce decree,
    and perfectly legal.
    
    However, her entitlement to Social Security benefits resulting from my
    employment record are NOT negotiable, and in fact have no impact on MY
    benefit from same.  So, that turns out to be a NON-ISSUE.
    
    Good luck.
    
    tony

    The way mine was going to be divided was: She gets 13/N's of whatever
    she would normally get because I worked for DEC while married for 13
    years and would expect to work for DEC for N years.  Then there was
    some BS because by that reasoning I should get 19 yrs share of her
    NYNEX pension.  Got it all stricken (and a few other things) by
    trading off the house.  Glad it's over.
    
    ed

My divorce became final this past Wednesday.  We managed to get through
it fairly easily (New Hampshire) by my ex filing most of the forms and papers
that had to be filed.  Our property settlement and child support issues were
painless.

Grand total cost to me: $75.  


Jim

    
    A friend who doesn't have net access is looking to get divorced 
    in the state of Rhode Island.  Neither member of the couple is
    financially able to really handle an expensive divorce.  Two children
    are involved, and they desire shared custody.  What's the minimum legal
    paperwork/fees required in that state?  Any pointers on resources for
    counselors or documents or guidelines or rules or anything as to what's
    involved?
    
    Feel free to send e-mail if you're not comfortable posting here.
    
    -Jody
    

    Anyone care to share their experiences with joint custody?
    
    cindy

I've had joint legal and shared physical custody of my son for six years
(he is 8).  In my opinion, the only way it can really work is if the parents
put their children's welfare ahead of their own differences.  This is harder
than it sounds, even in the most amicable of divorces.

				Steve

    Also, try the Non-Custodial Parents notesfile.  I think it's on QUOKKA. 
    It has lots of good info.
    
    Karen

    
    yes, I've been skimming it.  Pretty depressing, on the whole!  But I'll
    hand off the names of advocacy and support resources to him....
    
    -Jody

    I dunno about joint custoday (I will real soon, though), but I do know
    what _not_ having it is like.  When my ex and I parted ways, she
    received full custody because my lawyer told me that joint custody was
    basically just a formality to make one member feel better about things. 
    Not so!  When kids are involved it means that the person with no
    custody at all won't be consulted about school, medical treatment, or
    anything else!!!!  If you care about the kids, and if you feel your
    future ex cares about the kids, go for joint custody!  Let both parents
    have some input.
    
    	FWIW, within the last couple weeks, the kids have both moved in with 
    me.  The custody will be changed from my ex having full custody to
    joint custody with me having physical custody.
    
    larry
    who wants his kids to have two parents